First thing to check is to rotate the motor (at constant speed) and measure the output voltage with an oscilloscope, use the Y-point as ground. There should be tree (hopefully close to) sine-waves of equal amplitude 120 degrees apart. Then what you have tried is to run the motor without sensors. This is much trickier than running with sensors. You should get a drive board that takes for example hall-sensors and then add these sensors to the motor. If the first test is OK and you got the sensors at the right phase it should run.
Bldc motor controlers without sensors have very little starting tourque. It might work if you get it spinning by hand in the right direction first to get it started
Sensorless controllers rely on back Emf, the voltage generated by the magnets moving by the coils to know when to turn on what coil. At idle, there isn't any back emf, so the controller doesn't know what to do, it's why it was twitching like it was, those twitchs would be enough to jump start a smaller motor
@Dann Zylman its not moving past the steel rod due to high eddy current in the screws, you need to use silicone cold rolled steel in laminations, basically the magnets are getting stuck to the steal due to the magnetic eddy current. Swap the steel thread rod out for steel laminations from a old power supply transformer cut the laminations to a rectangles squeeze them in as tight a posable. sorry to tell you this but you might have to make new coils or print a plug that will let you insert the flat steel laminations in the center of the coils.
you can buy this ind of coil bobins in any seemstress store don't know if the size is the same but they look like sewing machine bobbins most common are 20mm bobbins 15mm high with 6mm hole
Really nice project. A little sad it didn't work, it could be due to a bunch of factors. Maybe one of the coils is flipped or the magnetic fields aren't strong enough. The field strength would probably be the easiest to fix by adding another set of magnets on the rotor on the other side of the motor. I'm really looking forward to seeing more of this project. good luck.
Thanks, yea I designed it initially to have two rotors but I wanted to test it with one first. And since there is no load on the motor it should have absolutely worked. maybe one of the coils is flipped I’ll see if there’s a way to test that 👍
I think you are new to 3d printing. Your orientation of the wire spool was wrong. Add fillet, use PETG filament, and print it in horizontally (you have to use support), your spool will be stronger.
hall effect sensor to fit the right speed and follow the magnetic flux rotation there is one in every brushless you open, you can find one into a cd drive brushless motor. the hall effect is making the timing perfect. but yeah triangular spools with way thinner wires hundreds of turns, this is a good idea to make a little spool turner for this
magnetic flux is stronger when you have 2 disks with magnets ether side, air gap must be smaller, but you can overcome a lot of the inefficiency's with a sensor feedback motor driver. coreless motors are all about super efficiency with regards to losses in the iron cores / cogging and drag. because of this you have a harder time keeping the flux inside the coils, and it can flit through the gaps. tying the magnet flux in pairs will increase the effort needed to push the flux around the coil, giving you better torque. the back emf type driver you have reads the zero point crossing of the floating phase, your motor needs to have a faster pickup and better flywheel effect in order for the controller to establish stable drive, you can help by adding more mass to the flywheel, and reducing the initial voltage. but without access the the variables in the micro controller you can not really tune it for this motor well. a super quick fix for proof, you can attach a drill to another similar sized motor and use it as a 3 phase generator.
ChatGPT isn't designed for this kind of task. It's like asking a bright high school student who has read about it but never designed a similar motor himself. The problem with the design is that the pulses delivered to the motor need to be synchronised with the arrival of the magnet, the speed at which that happens depends upon the speed and inertia of the rotor, and and you don't have any sensors to feed that information back to the controller.
Get a IR sender receiver (like a TCRT5000) and an arduino, put a silver stripe on the drill head, tune it with a pot to pulse on the silver stripe, have it count your turns (cannibalize...or modify, I guess...the drill and have the arduino drive the winding all together. Sort of like a guitar pickup winding machine. Add a servo, with some trial and error, you can dial in the wind angles too). I second the idea of using thinner wire, for complex magnetic, RF voodoo type, reasons its just better for little stuff (be careful guiding thin wire by hand, that stuff will slice right through your skin like a cheese slicer). Also, look at the slop in the rotor. Try an all-thread bolt so you can tighten the axle up on the bearings. That wobble is going to (and probably already is) bite you in the ass.
Im getting same results as you. Using same driver. Sometimes by spining shaft by hand and modulating knob of the driver i achieve constant spinning but overall have the same “starting” experience. Just shaking and wont start by itself. I just subscribed and im waiting for you to resolve our problem 😂
Maybe your coils and magnets need to be closer and have a more dense structure in every direction. That's what I feel by its effort to rotate and failing to.
I think so too. Need a smaller airgap and likely need to use a magnetic material (ferrite/laminated iron) to improve stator field and make airgap smaller. Rotor could be optimised with back iron and/or sideways magnets (which have a name) to improve rotor field.
I think your problem is not in the motor, but in the drive electronics. When I look for how a pancake motor works, I find this: ua-cam.com/video/PFJ38sZE4Ms/v-deo.html This motor uses a commutator with brushes, which energises different coils as the motor turns, dependent on the position of the rotor - but I don't see any commutator in your design. You said it's a 3-phase motor, so I'm guessing that there are 6 wires coming out of the motor in 3 pairs - call them paire-A, B, C. If you energise A, it will energise 2 coils (A1 & A2), and they will attract the magnets closest to them and, the motor will go to one static position and stay there. If you de-energise pair-A and energise the next pair of wires (B), coils B1 & B2 will energise, and the rotor will rotate to the next position and stay there. Energising C will make it go to the next position, and if you keep going A B C A B C A B C, it will go around - but the speed of rotation is dependent on how fast you go from A to B to C to A etc. What you have at the moment is a stepper motor. What you need is a bit of electronics that will switch your coils on one after the other, starting slowly and accelerating up to the required speed. So - what you want to do is speed up the stepping - but not from the point of starting the motor - it must start slowly then accelerate up to the desired speed by increasing the A-B-C-A frequency. *_HOWEVER_* - if the motor is loaded mechanically, and slows down, you need to slow down the selection of the coils, or the coils and rotor will get out of step, and you will lose torque, so the frequency of your coil selection has to be controlled by the rotation of the motor - and more specifically, by its _position._ Brushes and a commutator do that for you, but a commutator is hae=rd to make, and you can also do it with optical position sensors, magnetic position sensors, etc. If the motor gets up to speed and is not required to produce much torque, you can make the pulses to the coils narrower, so each pair is energised for less time - to save electricity and heating the coils. If I was doing this, I would have a processor like an Arduino between the sensors and the coil drivers - but that's just because I'd be using something I have used before. There are lots of ways you could do it (transistorised circuit, for example) Good luck. Edit : You could do worse than to talk to this guy : ua-cam.com/video/1isqsi9h7c4/v-deo.html His motor is functionally the same as yours - 3 pairs of coils, 8 magnets, and brushless - so he must have got the electronics sorted out, as his is running and sounds good. Maybe he can recommend ready-made electronics. Check the resistance of his coils against yours, but I think you will both have low resistance coils. You seem to be using thickish wire, and so does he.
much thinner wire and much much more turns thin wire with hundreds of turns
This is not a failure. This is science!
Thanks for your content, keep up with your projects
For six coils you need four magnets, 2 north and 2 south for the rotor
get a standard ESC and servo tester. together you have a speed controller powered by a knob, guaranteed to work
First thing to check is to rotate the motor (at constant speed) and measure the output voltage with an oscilloscope, use the Y-point as ground. There should be tree (hopefully close to) sine-waves of equal amplitude 120 degrees apart.
Then what you have tried is to run the motor without sensors. This is much trickier than running with sensors. You should get a drive board that takes for example hall-sensors and then add these sensors to the motor. If the first test is OK and you got the sensors at the right phase it should run.
Bldc motor controlers without sensors have very little starting tourque. It might work if you get it spinning by hand in the right direction first to get it started
Sensorless controllers rely on back Emf, the voltage generated by the magnets moving by the coils to know when to turn on what coil. At idle, there isn't any back emf, so the controller doesn't know what to do, it's why it was twitching like it was, those twitchs would be enough to jump start a smaller motor
@Dann Zylman its not moving past the steel rod due to high eddy current in the screws, you need to use silicone cold rolled steel in laminations, basically the magnets are getting stuck to the steal due to the magnetic eddy current. Swap the steel thread rod out for steel laminations from a old power supply transformer cut the laminations to a rectangles squeeze them in as tight a posable. sorry to tell you this but you might have to make new coils or print a plug that will let you insert the flat steel laminations in the center of the coils.
you can buy this ind of coil bobins in any seemstress store don't know if the size is the same but they look like sewing machine bobbins
most common are 20mm bobbins 15mm high with 6mm hole
Really nice project. A little sad it didn't work, it could be due to a bunch of factors. Maybe one of the coils is flipped or the magnetic fields aren't strong enough. The field strength would probably be the easiest to fix by adding another set of magnets on the rotor on the other side of the motor. I'm really looking forward to seeing more of this project. good luck.
Thanks, yea I designed it initially to have two rotors but I wanted to test it with one first. And since there is no load on the motor it should have absolutely worked. maybe one of the coils is flipped I’ll see if there’s a way to test that 👍
Axial flux motors need a position sensor to properly control phase switching.
you should probably have the magnets and the coils closer to each other. sometimes u have to spin the shaft manually for the esc so maybe try that too
I think you are new to 3d printing. Your orientation of the wire spool was wrong. Add fillet, use PETG filament, and print it in horizontally (you have to use support), your spool will be stronger.
hall effect sensor to fit the right speed and follow the magnetic flux rotation there is one in every brushless you open, you can find one into a cd drive brushless motor. the hall effect is making the timing perfect. but yeah triangular spools with way thinner wires hundreds of turns, this is a good idea to make a little spool turner for this
magnetic flux is stronger when you have 2 disks with magnets ether side, air gap must be smaller, but you can overcome a lot of the inefficiency's with a sensor feedback motor driver.
coreless motors are all about super efficiency with regards to losses in the iron cores / cogging and drag.
because of this you have a harder time keeping the flux inside the coils, and it can flit through the gaps.
tying the magnet flux in pairs will increase the effort needed to push the flux around the coil, giving you better torque.
the back emf type driver you have reads the zero point crossing of the floating phase, your motor needs to have a faster pickup and better flywheel effect in order for the controller to establish stable drive, you can help by adding more mass to the flywheel, and reducing the initial voltage.
but without access the the variables in the micro controller you can not really tune it for this motor well.
a super quick fix for proof, you can attach a drill to another similar sized motor and use it as a 3 phase generator.
I am pretty sure, this motor can spinning, but can't self starting. Just give him a little "Push" In the right direction. :)
I think it needs more inertial mass to move it to the next poll perhaps a flywheel might help
Ai only provide text tools for general description. How do you finalize all the magnetic design and mechanical design? Any tools suggested?
Very nicely done. I think you need a smaller gauge wire for the coils. Maybe 22 or 26.
Yeah I was thinking that too, smaller wire and more turns to increase the operating voltage.
@@DeanZylman Also maybe reduce the amount of filament used in parts so the mass decrease, resulting in the motor not needing to work to hard.
the 2 ways to wire an electric motor is in star and delta, your motor is wired in the star configuration and non-ferrous fixing around the outside
Is the copper in the coils magnet wire? I.e. resin coated? I cannot tell from the video.
Yeah it’s enamelled copper wire
like poles repel revers the wiring at the connection
ChatGPT isn't designed for this kind of task. It's like asking a bright high school student who has read about it but never designed a similar motor himself.
The problem with the design is that the pulses delivered to the motor need to be synchronised with the arrival of the magnet, the speed at which that happens depends upon the speed and inertia of the rotor, and and you don't have any sensors to feed that information back to the controller.
what power does it generate when spun??..
Get a IR sender receiver (like a TCRT5000) and an arduino, put a silver stripe on the drill head, tune it with a pot to pulse on the silver stripe, have it count your turns (cannibalize...or modify, I guess...the drill and have the arduino drive the winding all together. Sort of like a guitar pickup winding machine. Add a servo, with some trial and error, you can dial in the wind angles too). I second the idea of using thinner wire, for complex magnetic, RF voodoo type, reasons its just better for little stuff (be careful guiding thin wire by hand, that stuff will slice right through your skin like a cheese slicer). Also, look at the slop in the rotor. Try an all-thread bolt so you can tighten the axle up on the bearings. That wobble is going to (and probably already is) bite you in the ass.
You used hot glue, melted plastic, if temp goes higher than 80°C, neodynium loose their magnetism (curie point) maybe it lowered magntic flux.
Im getting same results as you. Using same driver. Sometimes by spining shaft by hand and modulating knob of the driver i achieve constant spinning but overall have the same “starting” experience. Just shaking and wont start by itself. I just subscribed and im waiting for you to resolve our problem 😂
I’m still working on it haha
Bro, how did u design the 3D parts? With help of Chatgpt? Or done by yourself?
Chat gpt told me what to design I did the 3D modelling
How did you count the number of turns
I played back the video and just counted haha
@@DeanZylman What???
Hehe chat teaches us so much and anything we can't be bothered learning it just does it 😊
03:43 You are recording your wire winding - just rewatch your video to get your winding count.
I actually did this haha but it was still very annoying to do
3d printed materials are the very very weak under tension, maybe print that hub sideway.
Looks to me like you have all coils connected together so they are all energized at the same time.
That's star configuration
I had the same thought.
Maybe your coils and magnets need to be closer and have a more dense structure in every direction. That's what I feel by its effort to rotate and failing to.
I think so too. Need a smaller airgap and likely need to use a magnetic material (ferrite/laminated iron) to improve stator field and make airgap smaller. Rotor could be optimised with back iron and/or sideways magnets (which have a name) to improve rotor field.
The threaded rod, assuming steel, will conduct magnetic field but it'll have Eddy current losses as the magnetic field is changing.
I think your problem is not in the motor, but in the drive electronics. When I look for how a pancake motor works, I find this:
ua-cam.com/video/PFJ38sZE4Ms/v-deo.html
This motor uses a commutator with brushes, which energises different coils as the motor turns, dependent on the position of the rotor - but I don't see any commutator in your design. You said it's a 3-phase motor, so I'm guessing that there are 6 wires coming out of the motor in 3 pairs - call them paire-A, B, C. If you energise A, it will energise 2 coils (A1 & A2), and they will attract the magnets closest to them and, the motor will go to one static position and stay there. If you de-energise pair-A and energise the next pair of wires (B), coils B1 & B2 will energise, and the rotor will rotate to the next position and stay there. Energising C will make it go to the next position, and if you keep going A B C A B C A B C, it will go around - but the speed of rotation is dependent on how fast you go from A to B to C to A etc. What you have at the moment is a stepper motor. What you need is a bit of electronics that will switch your coils on one after the other, starting slowly and accelerating up to the required speed.
So - what you want to do is speed up the stepping - but not from the point of starting the motor - it must start slowly then accelerate up to the desired speed by increasing the A-B-C-A frequency. *_HOWEVER_* - if the motor is loaded mechanically, and slows down, you need to slow down the selection of the coils, or the coils and rotor will get out of step, and you will lose torque, so the frequency of your coil selection has to be controlled by the rotation of the motor - and more specifically, by its _position._ Brushes and a commutator do that for you, but a commutator is hae=rd to make, and you can also do it with optical position sensors, magnetic position sensors, etc. If the motor gets up to speed and is not required to produce much torque, you can make the pulses to the coils narrower, so each pair is energised for less time - to save electricity and heating the coils.
If I was doing this, I would have a processor like an Arduino between the sensors and the coil drivers - but that's just because I'd be using something I have used before. There are lots of ways you could do it (transistorised circuit, for example)
Good luck.
Edit : You could do worse than to talk to this guy : ua-cam.com/video/1isqsi9h7c4/v-deo.html
His motor is functionally the same as yours - 3 pairs of coils, 8 magnets, and brushless - so he must have got the electronics sorted out, as his is running and sounds good. Maybe he can recommend ready-made electronics. Check the resistance of his coils against yours, but I think you will both have low resistance coils. You seem to be using thickish wire, and so does he.
look up how to make linear motors the winding math shuld be the/B same id think
steel flywheel and itll run !!
I love how you used chat gpt in this project i had no idea this was possible!
Na realidade ele quase funciona basta alguns ajuste e ele ira funcionar esta bem proximo.
SPIN IT UP BY HAND FIRST!
add a load
8 imanes si tuvieras 12 bobinas, no con 6 bobinas
use 9 magnet
noice
tupang can u tell me how did u get motor made in freecad after chat gpt what is the process
chat gpt dont know how to make motor simple
great vid