What is TRUE luxury?
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
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Adrian, George and Andrew discuss what luxury actually means and what we class as a luxury watch.
Is Omega a luxury watch brand?
Is Rolex a luxury watch brand?
Is Tudor a luxury watch brand?
#AET #Rolex #luxury
I went into the A Lange & Sohne boutique in Mayfair and opened with “I cannot afford any of your watches, but I adore your brand”… I then spent an hour with two members of staff forcing me to try on each watch they had in the store. They gave me luxury, even just for an hour.
I had the same experience in souther California. The person in the shop even texts me updates periodically. They gave me a Lange 1 and a loupe and let me have fun for a bit. It was a fantastic experience.
Wow
That's great to hear!
Same for me at Richard Mille in Vegas. Sales guy Alex was amazing to my wife and I after fully disclosing to him that everything in here is completely unattainable to us; but he sat us down, gave us drinks and brought out an almost $500k piece for us to try on and drool over. He sent us on our way with some coffee table books, waters, and an RM bag to carry it all in, and even texted me the next day to just say he was there if RM is ever in my reach. Hands down the best watch experience we've ever had for something I will never be able to purchase. No judgement, no snobbery, just a watch guy talking watches to other people who appreciate watches and amazing hand crafted things.
Had a similar experience at the Panerai boutique on 5th Ave. I guess it's very much dependent on the people, both doing the immediate interaction and those in the backrooms running the show. The way people (who aren't even immediate customers) are treated on average may not be a direct indication of luxury in the mainstream but certainly the hallmark of luxury to me.
This is one of the best episodes yet. The gang did a great job not talking over each other and allowing everyone to share their perspective. Bravo!
I grew up in communist Romania, in the countryside, in the 80’s. Those classic Casio F91 style in metal were luxury. We rarely if ever saw one, it costed a fortune, and all average people could get was Chinese clones of that Casio. The original was a grail for people.
I hear you! :)
Pretty cool observation. Granted I grew up in the States, but I can still relate. Nice comment btw.
Your comment defines luxury. Relative to the baseline average for your community, environment and system, the Casio was unnecessary, expensive, high quality and scarce.
In Ukraine. Early 90s when my parents first brought home a Snickers bar from a market in Moscow.... that felt like real luxury... had never seen Western sweets before
@@Valera_Scotland I get you. We were collecting wrappers of western sweets, and we traded them as valuables. To make it clear, just the wrappers, we never actually saw the actual sweets. But the wrappers were soooo nice :))
PLOT TWIST: I am the micro brand that wanted to pay Adrian all that money!! 😝 I finally got him to take it to compliment meeeee!!
I’m with George in his wrap up. 54:55 There have been times in my life when a bed, a meal, and a shower were a luxury. Watches are globally luxurious. To an individual, some are and others are not. Experiences aren’t luxury but there are luxurious experiences. Items aren’t luxury, but there are luxurious items.
My friend once visited Roger Dubuis boutique with no intention to buy a watch. He was treated extremly well, was able to try different watches and had a great conversation. He left his contact details and the same day in the evening he got to his hotel room a set of gadgets incouding some serious leather ones and a paper with hand writing thanks for the visit. It made him revisit the boutique and with no such initial intention, spontenously ordered a watch. He came back to Poland and revisited the boutique in Switzerland to collect the piece with a superb hospitaly. Few months later he was invited to the fares with free hotel and a limousine. He told me he felt overwhelmed with a luxury in that experience. After the collection visit he went out of the boutique and started to laugh from all these positive emotions. This is a luxury experience and a luxury purchase to me.
What your friend experienced was not a luxurious experience, it was a premium service experience. Luxury is not an experience, it is a category of goods and services based on the money you pay for them. If someone goes to a boutique and doesn't purchase anything but is nonetheless treated like a paying customer, that is called good service or premium service experience.
During Watches and Wonders this year, my 10yr old daughter asked to visit Dior in Geneva. We walked into the Maison and a young assistant called Innnes spent 1.5 hrs with us, showing us everything incl watches and historic items and explained the history to my daughter. Finally we were given a goodie bag on departure. Clearly we were not looking to buy, but now my 10yr old is fascinated by Dior and will surely save up to revisit at some point. It was a fabulous experience of brand which clearly recognised the future opportunity...
*Love* this story.
Being an introverted guy, anytime I'm forced to line up or be ushered around by a salesmen is the antithesis of luxury to me.
I'll never forget how I felt in the JLC store at Harrods when on our honeymoon. While I was lurking around the front I was practically dragged in with down to earth friendliness, insisted to pop on watches to try knowing full well I'm not in the market. I felt welcome, I felt comfortable, I didn't need to internally roll my eyes while I got car salesmen dribble.
To me, this is luxury. Seiko in Melbourne made me feel the same, in fact, they were more akin to a car meet or other hobbies where people aren't there to brag, but to uplift everyone.
In a world where social media, globalisation, covid and more has made everything closer and yet more meaningless, connection is the ultimate luxury.
This is why I can never get behind your Rolexs, Pateks and heck, in Omegas in some circumstances
Last time I visited my Rolex and Tudor AD the very friendly sales person again tried to talk me into getting finally on the list for a Submariner Steel Date. He always does that, because he knows I had a Sub for a long time.
This time I said yes. I don ´t care if I ever get one. But if I want a new watch, I know where to go, and where not.
Being treated friendly has nothing to do with brands, as you see.
JLC store in Harrods seconded
Luxury is a state of mind, based on how an object makes you feel. At 10, wearing my first Casio watch to school, I felt like a million bucks. Now older, having gotten my first Rolex from an AD, I feel good wearing it, but it feels more like $10,000.
Thank you to Andrew for highlighting the effect of scarcity. It was driving me mad that a distinction between luxury and exclusivity wasn't touched on until that moment. From the materialistic, consumeristic vantage that non-enthusiasts generally look at any product category from, exclusivity is usually conflated with luxury and that muddies the boundary between the two.
Really good conversation on luxury. I liked what all three guys had to say about this. I'm in the camp of "luxury is personal". For me Rolex has fallen out of luxury simply because the buying experience lowers you rather than elevates you (kind of in contrast to what the guys were saying about AP, though I haven't experienced that).
How ironic that George who probably has been exposed to more luxury in his live than Andrew and Adrian put together, ends up having the most down to earth view on luxury. Not sure who are the divers that Adrian knows with Seamasters but the ones that I know use digital watches and for mechanical, most of the time it's Seiko. They tend to spend more of their money on traveling/diving/safety/renting boats and equipment than luxury watches.
Well, I think thats because hes always had luxury and I assume the others ddnt grow up with it and is used to it. In a way traditional luxury loses some if its appeal. And im also sure the the customization aspect helps his business.
He’s able to cosplay as a brokie because he can always fall back on his nest egg.
I’ve been watching since day one and B&J since the very beginning. I remember the episode when Adrian was shopping for his Explorer and trying to decide between the Explorer and a Tudor and this, on par with Adrian’s episode on the same topic, is the most surreal discussion about watches that I’ve ever heard, but not in a good way. If anything, I think George’s view may be the only one with an iota of substance. Be it a Rolex, Omega, Tudor, Longines, any one of these items are luxury… people save for months, sometimes years for a product that is anachronistic and that they definitely don’t need and which is desirable enough that if you asked 100 people if they would like to have one at no cost, I’m sure that 100% of them would say yes. Obviously, some are more luxurious than others, some are more unique, some are more artisanal, some are more exclusive, but, in my not so humble opinion, they are all luxury. Discussing tiers for luxury? Sure, why not, but to say a Rolex GMT is luxury and an Explorer 2, a Seamaster or a Tudor isn’t, well it just sounds absurd and honestly I feel you become less credible because of it.
This is legit one of the top 5 episode! My last 1 hour was quality! All you three are really on point in this ep! Keep this up ❤
At the end of the day the definition changes for every person. It comes down to feeling, of both how the watch makes you feel and how the purchase made you feel. I appreciate George being ok with having something luxury to him and also wearing it and beating up things.
If there isn’t a personal connection to the piece, the cost and build are useless.
You are confusing luxury with Premium. Luxury comes with the difference between price and buying power of the consumer paired with the status of the brand, so for example a $500 watch is a luxury product for someone who lives in a poor country with minimum wage. On the other hand premium has to do with the materials, technique and availability of the product; a gold watch is more premium than a steel watch, so Rolex gold watch is more premium than a steel Patek, but at the same time the Patek is more luxurious due to its price and status of the brand. Sometimes Luxury and Premium coincide, but just like the example I just described, they are two different things.
In other words, Luxury is you paying for the luxury of owning a part of the brand; premium is you paying for the best quality product the brand can offer.
Agree re: comments on AP. I had an amazing afternoon at AP House in London trying on watches. Great customer service which epitomised what a luxury boutique experience can be.
On the rest,
1/ I think we should not conflate “luxury experience” and “luxury product”. You can have one without the other. BUT on a scale, the epitome of luxury is when you get both.
2/Function, whether or not something is a ‘tool’ (dive watch, Chrono, combine harvester) doesn’t preclude something from being luxury, I think what makes it luxury is when it offers something of extra elegance, comfort, brand image, rarity and expense that goes beyond what’s needed for its function.
SHUT THE FRONT DOOOOOOR!!!! Lmao!!! How did Adrian do my stupid accent better than I do my stupid accent?! ADRIAN. THIS IS THE HIGHEST PRAISE IVE EVER RECEIVED!!!!! And I’m literally just copying you and all the other amazing UA-camrs. This is way to high of praise and this will literally keep me going for the next 3 years. Thank you soooo so much! I am just catching up on the show now! 💕💕💕✨
In a way, luxury is the opposite of value for money.
I think a luxury product should be built largely for pleasure, not function. A watch is still a tool, even though it is an obsolete one. If a watch is made to be the best watch it can be, I don’t consider that luxury. But if you make it in gold, then a large part of what you pay for isn’t function, but pleasure. A high degree of finishing can also make a steel watch a luxury item (like the GMT Master II).
«In house», bragging rights, brand name etc. are other things that adds cost, not performance. That makes a watch more luxurious.
Just my two cents. Great episode, guys, keep it up!
I'm 50/50 agreement that the Studio Underdog watch stands with the Rolex as luxury. Mainly because the vast majority of people that want or have the Rolex would say the Studio Underdog watch is crap and they wouldnt want it because what they want is a trophy. They don't care that its a 1/2 watch from a brand that the masses havent heard of they want every stranger on the street to go "ohhh look at him, he has a Rolex". To me the Studio Underdog is crazy cool but sadly a lot of people don't want a luxury watch they want a flex/trophy to boost their ego. In my collection most of them are IWC and JLC because 1. I love the brands and their designs and 2. They fall into a catagory I like to call "stealth wealth", in 20 years of wearing them I have had maybe 4 people out in the wild know what I was wearing.
Thank you, guys! You [somehow] have brought back the original 'soul of the show' - three watch pro dudes talking watches - thank you for that! There were many episodes where I as a viewer, your fanboy, didn't find a spark - but now it's there again. Keep up the hard & great work - you rock.
Luxury is in the eye of the beholder. Well done gentleman.
My last comment is that i never want to hear 'it's just a watch' again.
Nice to see support those who are in the dark or helpnthose out of the dark. Epic.
Adrian mentions combine harvester and I hear the song in my head: "I've got a brand new combine harvester"!!!!
The treatment from Bamford is true luxury!
I turned up just for a visit and George and his team took time out of their day to spend time with me, I wasn't even there to buy anything!
Plus the Hive is badass!!!!!!!!!!!
Nice one GB
Im with George and Andrew on this: it’s about the personal experience one gets out of the product, is it at or near the pinnacle in terms of quality/performance? If it does then it is a luxury product.
Example: the Mercedes W124 was and still is a luxury product, even though nowadays they can be had for relatively affordable prices because one only needs to experience the quality of its ride to experience something close to the pinnacle of ride comfort. All this was thanks to the way the chassis and suspension was engineered, the rear suspension itself has a total of 10 different control arms to ensure optimum comfort and handling.
In this case, the complicated (read:expensive) engineering behind it is the one that gives the driver that luxury experience.
This podcast really inspires to explore the watch world, instead jumping the gun to a ‘end game’ watch as the main goal. Great!
The system works! Thanks for writing.
"George bring toilet paper" on the script is a hilarious detail 😄 Nice episode! I am really enjoying Season 2!
Yeah, that was a GB special that - no telegraphing it on any script or show notes.
You boys are making me question my reasoning behind buying my ceramic Daytona. Excellent and insightful discussion.
True luxury is something yo want to have! Not something you need to have!
EXACTLY... wants and needs are two very different things..If you live in the countryside you need a car.. if you live in the city you don't need one .. but you want one..
@@JAY61isha friend once argued with me, for far longer than was interesting, that wants and needs are effectively the same thing. The thrust of his argument was build around the theory that a person does what they want to do 100% of the time and he went further to explain that given that were a person to repeat a day they would do the exact same thing again every time.
Any time I said something like "hold on what about the person who didn't want to sell his Rolex but had to to pay his debts" the answer was something like "he wanted to pay his debts then, so he wanted to sell his watch"
9:35 Adrian's so Scottish he momentarily channeled Sean Connery. Great quote from Andrew at the end to sum it all up, cracking episode gents.
Great episode guys, I love it when the discussions are thought out and methodical, rather than the overtalking. For me luxury is personal and it can change as you move along the watch journey. As you learn more, opinions change and you understand where brands are taking the piss or just going for the extra $$$, with super limited editions etc etc. Luxury, has to be a price point where it becomes a little uncomfortable to make the purchase, just pushing your budget, but has to have that level of craftsmanship, quality, history and also attainability. For a watch be totally unattainable is not luxury, its a wank..:)
These 3 gentlemen have absolutely grown on me. AET has clearly become my number one watch show. The content is informative and very interesting.. keep up the great work gents!!
I have a tiny watch 18 in all collection. That range from £60.00 to £7,000.00 each and every one of these watches is Luxury, because I don't really need them it's more of a luxury to own them.
George is absolutely correct on luxury. Adrian is caught up in being the member of an exclusive “club” and confusing membership with wealthy people as having luxury.
Something is not mentioned is brand history - to me a heritage brand is meaningful that they literally stand through the test of time.
I think there’s another piece to luxury; it sort of needs to have an absurd level of cost/engineering relative to purpose. So I’d argue Montblanc is absolutely luxury. However, they’re very obtainable at the entry level. But I think that they’re luxury in terms of experience, quality, etc. However, they’re replacing something like a Bic.
Well said George - luxury is in the eyes of beholder. If the watch is wearing you rather you wearing the watch - it’s a luxury, to you for a start. If other people share your view - it’s objectively luxurious product. I’ve seen a video on YT where watchmaker was servicing a 50y old Rolex worn by a senior fellow every day to work (construction engineer). It was clearly his favourite tool. Someone else may take $750 Seiko off the wrist to do gardening. It’s a luxury to her/him.
My 30 year old Tag Heuer quartz bought the day my daughter was born… True luxury.
Adrian’s comments about Rolex… I have felt this way in a lot of their AD’s… in mine, the rep I work with, I get to geek out about watches with them. That, for me, adds to the experience
I have my grandfather's smuggled "world cup final" watch.
It doesn't worth much, but the story does and for me this is one of a kind and ultimate luxury.
Backstory:This watch is Swiss made, but my country (Hungary) couldn't import from the west. There was an exception for athletes where the custom officers cannot search a diplomats/athletes' luggage. The 1954 world cup was held in Switzerland and what is expensive and can fit in a suitcase... watches. Now the Hungarian "golden team" with Puskás was considered the best and got runners up. After they got home they sold a bunch of watches and my grandpa bought one with his entire inheritance.
He wasn't an athlete. His mum put 2/4 of his children into orphanage and he was one of them. After the inheriting he spent all his inheritance on this watch.
Unfortunately he died before I was born but I wear his watch with pride and honor.
What a great episode! For me, luxury is just as important about customer service as the actual item (watch or non watch!) I recently visited an Omega boutique in London which I’m sure most would say is a luxury watch brand. The sale assistant could not have been less interested in me or assisting me with a purchase at all. Contrastly, I then wandered into the Bremont store 3 doors down (I’m sure we can all agree on the face of it Bremont is not a luxury brand in the same way as Omega) I spent the next 2 hours talking to a sales rep about the brand, it’s young history and ended up trying on about 10 pieces and eventually buying one. I certainly know which experience felt more luxury to me!
What a great episode! No yelling, no talking over each other, no interruption of the other, no unnecessary drama etc. Only analytical and quality discussion. More this kind of content!
I mostly agree with Adrian’s Venn diagram, but I agree with Andrew about the microbrands. I had a microbrand watch that I bought for $950, but didn’t connect with it, so I ended up selling it for over $1750 because they were sold out per the manufacturer. I think anything that is not needed and has a higher than basic cost to it, qualifies as a luxury product, product being different than a luxury experience. And since watches aren’t necessary in today’s world, any watch that exceeds your personal relative cost ceiling, is a luxury watch.
I think luxury is just a scale between an item's personal intended use versus its build, aesthetic, and unrelated "bonus" qualities. So I take an item that is perfectly "good enough" for my own use case as a gold standard, and see how far another item is above it in terms of these qualities.
For example, I occasionally use a pen to take notes, and I compare a BIC pen to a Montblanc pen. The BIC pen writes decently, won't snap in half as I use it, is comfortable, and is generally satisfactory as a writing tool. I've used the same one for years and am perfectly happy. On the other hand, the Montblanc pen has more ink, writes smoother, feels better in the hand, will last years of heavy use, and is much prettier to look at. But for my use case, all of these qualities over the basic BIC pen is additional and overall unnecessary, so its a big luxury.
But say someone else is a professional artist who's specializes in pen art. For them, a BIC pen could be completely unusable, and a Montblanc is the bare minimum they could use to get their art to a certain quality (probably not true, but go along with it for the analogy). In their case, a Montblanc isn't a luxury at all and is just a basic tool.
So to put it plainly, to me, all watches over a basic Casio is a luxury, and its just a matter of how much more other watches have in terms of those qualities. So having an incredible customer experience buying an AP is for sure a luxury, since customer experience is a bonus but unrelated quality connected to the watch, but price and difficulty to obtain do not factor in for me.
I enjoy most of what you guys bring us, but this one was tough to make it thru for me.
The Venn diagram was a great analysis of what luxury is, but it definitely all comes down to what a person can afford. A person can look at my Tissot PRX and call it luxury but other people won’t. A person can look at my Breitling Superocean and call it luxury but some people won’t.
Amazing content again!❤
Hi big fan of your show from Malaysia and a big Rolex fan boy too. I feel one very important aspect for luxury to a person is actually how much that object meant and desirable to that individual. It is like saying Birkin bag is a super high luxury item however if I do not want, it will never be luxurious to me.
Luxury encompasses quite a few subjective elements. Branding is essentially perception and that perception can be entirely bullshit. But just because it’s bullshit for one person, doesn’t mean that it will be for another. Build-quality really can’t be faked, so that is a pretty solid indicator and must be part of the equation. The buying experience should also encompass the Service experience after purchasing the watch as well. I’ve purchased a few TAG Heuers and had servicing experiences that were horrendous and pushed me entirely away from them as a brand and product. Largely, what you guys have been quite correct on, is that “luxury” can be a relative item and experience from person to person.
What appeals to me and the character of your program is that you have three personalities that are respectful of each other before adding on and the mix of humor and knowledge makes for a blend of great chemistry…good job amigos
George's gold TAG Heuer: holy shit. Amazing. And the GP Aston Martin. Wow. George on another level from the rest of us... and I'm here for it.
Georges > Adrian on this topic of the day.
Did you all smoke a joint together before you recorded this episode? You all seem super chill and calmer than usual, not that it's a bad thing! I appreciate that everybody isn't shouting over each other as much this episode!
Thanks for wearing the Studio Underd0g. My wife ordered one for me and I’ve been dying to know how it’ll fit on my wrist. I think Andrew is the closest to my size of the three and it looks dynamite on his wrist so I’m geeked.
What a great episode guys. Great question. Im also in the "luxury is personal" camp. The purchase experience should predict your wants. You want pampering and conversation, you get it. You want comfort and hospitality but able to minimise chit chat and get the watch on wrist, you should get that. You should feel at home and kind of inspired in a way too. As George said of his IWC Singapore experience.
Something being “well known or popular” doesn’t equal luxury. Luxury is a perception you can debate for an eternity. Great video guys!!
I view my Casio Oceanus S100 as a luxury watch. They're pretty rare, exceptionally well built and finished for the money, and costs just enough to be more than just a cheap impulse buy.
Growing up, my family didn't have much to spend. In Junior High, I joined the tennis team, and asked my family if we could buy a pair of Nike shoes for me to wear. They refused, far too expensive! So I saved up for 2 months, and bought my own pair. They were $40. I wore those Nike tennis shoes for 2 years, when the discount-store-brand shoes I normally wore disintegrated on my feet every few months. Luxury, to my mind, is any item or experience which is not strictly necessary, based upon your resources at the moment... but is desirable for the improved quality of life it may bring.
I really enjoyed listening to each of your insights! This is definitley a topic worth exploring. It hits home with me personally, because as a relatively new "enthusiast" (less than a year), I have many watches that I love, but haven't paid more than $700 for any one watch. I am now at a tipping point in my journey, where I am now considering watches between the $1,000- $6,000 range. A year ago I never would have considered these price points, and would have considered these amounts as small fortunes, for a very "luxurious" item that I did not need 12 months ago. Interestingly, I have noticed a bit of a hierachy in our hobby. Which I don't care for, but find myself hesitating in buying the $500 watches that I love.! I do not know where this comes from!? For example, I never have been interested in Rolex, I find them boring. Not that they aren't nice watches, because they are, but they almost seem like people buy them as part of a uniform. Basically, they have them because they can. I work in a five star resort in las Vegas (Wynn) and the area I work, I deal with royalty, movie stars, Moguls, etc. and I see the APs, and other baller watches every day, all day, and George was right, I always compliment peoples watches and ask about them...EXCEPT Rolex. But I find myself considering buying one! I dont know if it is because I percieve I can not get one, or if it is a true luxury item I want? Point is, I personally consider having and owning a watch, a luxury "experience" and do not know if I am getting caught up because of marketing, scarcity, perception, or peer pressure? I did not realize that my love for these little things would become an opportunity of self growth and analysis. lol. But this is definitley a great discussion.
I have to say, the experience and relationship I have with my AD has always been fantastic. I have been invited to events, kept abreast of the latest info and have regular contact and genuinely enjoy the conversations and interactions I have which aren’t necessarily just ‘can I have this watch?’.
I do think you have to take the amount of transactions and manufacture that Rolex go through in comparison to AP as well.
Very thought provoking!
My idea of genuine luxury is that:
1. Integral designs up to smallest details
2. Handmade, not industrial
3. Superlative materials
4. Built without any economic considerations
5. Small quantities each item is unique
6. Price are high
Rolex, Omega, IWC, etc… are all industrial, mass produced products which are all sold for very high premiums, some of these are highly hyped hence may be more difficult to obtain. Their prices, the struggle to get some of these provide the masses with an illusion of exclusive luxury although it’s a sort of fad given these are all mass produced mostly by machines…
I like the interaction between these guys. Luxury is a personal thing.
Omega SMP vs. Seiko SKX: Two questions:
1) Do they have a diver's certification?
2) Are they well suited to their task?
IMO, the Omega is a luxury watch, full stop. The SKX kind of is too. There are dive computers now, as well as reliable quartz watches (solar, too). Mechanical watches are mostly obsolete, extremely niche at best.
A better example: A basic G-shock is a tool if you use it as a tool, a metal G-shock is a luxury piece, no matter how you use it.
If pure functionality is a secondary aspect, it's luxury, simple as that.
"Luxury" as a concept is so multifaceted, with watches especially. We could have a luxury product, without a luxury purchase experience (Rolex), but then going back to the initial definition at the beginning of this episode, as George alluded to, "inessential" items that cost a lot OR are hard to acquire are luxury. Then we can go a step further and incorporate the relative aspect as well, even if you need a watch on your wrist (if you don't or can't always have your phone on your person) an essential watch could be purchased for £10? Something like a Casio F91W, at that point anything over that £10 is overspending, especially for a mechanical timepiece. Arguably, any watch costing more than £10 is a luxury watch. Ultimately if we have the option of spending significant sums of money on a watch, we're in a good place, ideally we want the purchase experience to feel as good as the product, and ideally we want to feel like the product elevates how we feel when wearing it.
Please excuse the wall of text, I really enjoyed this episode guys :)
Hat tip to Andrew for the ‘gave you a hand with that’ quip that didn’t land in the room.
Somebody gets me XX
Perceived Social Status i think is the most defining aspect of luxury.
If you can have very famous persons endorsing consistently (intentionally or not) then it'll affect the price & scarcity, then it'll be determined by long term quality.
The endorsing can be caused by quality or just prestige of the wearer.
Such a great concept and idea to have a conversation on. This topic should be more talked about. Thanks for sharing these stories.
🟠The Pumpkin is awesome! Nice to see on your wrist Andrew! 🟠
I am leaning towards what George had said something like "I see a tourist removing their omega before they went for a dive'' because it is expensive. A luxury watch for me is anything above USD3000 so I guess sometimes it really is just about how wealthy a person is and/or how he/she views the dollar note (money)
Yes, "luxury" is subjective. It means different things to different people. Quilted Bogg roll might be a luxury to some people but a non topic to King Charles.
In a way it would almost be easier to say what isn't luxury!
There's the old saying "one man's trash is another man's treasure"
Then there's luxury and perceived luxury. In other words, it's not really luxury, but you've been told it is so you believe it to be true. If you believe it is, can anyone say it isn't?
To me personally? Still sticky. I buy things because I like them, how they make me feel, and reflect my personality. I don't care if someone else appreciates them or not. BUT, if someone else says "hey, I like that" to me there's that little bit of smugness and you think " yeah, I like it too" sometimes that little validation says "luxury"
I went to a concert recently and I got several compliments on the tshirt I was wearing. I was particularly chuffed because I was with my kids and best friend and if they had any doubts about how cool I was or my personal style they were soundly put to rest! 🤣😎🤣
Great debate. The Venn diagram works - who knew Capt Boring had it in him!
One thing: trying to compare watches to cars falls short, especially when talking microbrands as luxury. Watch geek: ‘holy shit you got a Studio Underdog!’ Rando on the street (thinks) ‘he’s wearing a kids watch.’ So ultimate eye of the beholder.
I guess I’ve been fortunate - I’ve been treated great at the Rolex boutique - they must sense my love of watches, talk watches with me, let me try on the exo pieces. Still haven’t sold me one…
PS - Explorer II is lower than the Tudor and Omega because until the money printing and crypto it was a forgotten Rolex that languished in the stores.
My counter to that is kit cars or coach built cars. These are similar to microbrand watches and to a car enthusiast, you'll get a tonne of respect, administration and questions. To someone who isn't a car nut, you'll be laughed at what a ugly looking thing you drive. "It doesn't have air conditioning? No roof?" Etc
Where the comparison falls down is 99.9% of people do not NEED a watch. A large portion of people NEED a car
Always the guy with the most money and knowledge of luxury has the most down to earth vision. Go George..
Luxury to me is a mixture of personalisation, customer experience and continued relationship- an encounter that leaves an impression worth returning to.
I think all we can possibly agree on when it comes to “luxury” is that it’s all in the eye of the beholder. I’ve had luxury experiences at cheap chain restaurants, I’ve had a luxurious time wear a G-SHOCK that people thought was an amazing watch. I’ve had a rolex and never felt special. My Seikos, G-SHOCKs and Citizens I’ve felt something special and connected to an unknown thing.
Just to correct a point on “Zap markings” in the military. The British military of today doesn’t use it like that. The series of numbers after the “W10/“ is the NSN (NATO Stock Number), how the item is identified and accounted for in stores and issuing.
We do have zap numbers, but they’re used to identify a person, the first two letters of your surname and the last four digits of your service number. So George if your service number was 30168935, your zap number would be BA8935.
Saying a zap marking just means military seems… off.
Love the show :)
I agree with the ideas here. But I would simply add the disclaimer of “luxury is to each person the item or experience that ticks these boxes, for their particular experience”
Like for me, the Tissot PRX powermatic 80 is great quality, hard to obtain financially, unnecessary, but worth it! There of course are watches that far exceed mine, but according to my lot in life, this is the best I can get. So to me it is luxury
I think Adrian nailed this to be fair
Adrian - Gold indexes and hands has to make the Explorer II a luxury watch.
Anything that is not a necessity is luxury.
My wife says luxury is a symbol of status that is priced so affluent people can afford it. Affluent people can also wear espadrilles of course but they know they are being bohemian.
It is unreal how much Rolex has tarnished their name over the last 4 years. Yes it's partly to blame by ADs, but Rolex could have banned ADs from forcing you to purchase a smaller watch before you are allowed to buy the watch you actually want.
Do you think ADs should sell Daytonas and Steel Subs to people who have zero spending history over people who have purchase history to make things “fair”?
Loved the episode! My definition definition of luxury was in line with what was discussed but i am more forgiving with accessibility and cost. I think anything higher than 1-2k usd for watches is luxury while maintaining quality that you can make last for 20-30 years and 5-6 years without changing movement.
Also why “Gerrard Periguux”? @ 36:35
A good team tackle of a tough question to answer. Enjoyed the conversation and hearing each of your varying takes. Well done!!
Anything over £1000 is luxury. Below that mark, you can get something as good as what you’ll need, so over that it’s the start of luxury watches.
Where can I get a wall clock like those from?
The diagram is perfect, the other factors are just good comercial Practices but it doesn’t change what luxury is.
Luxury for me is everything you don’t need, but want bc is enjoyable. Whatever it is. Experience, item, food, land with a view etc.
To call something luxury (for everybody) is always subjective, so it is really just an aproximation to an idea of how the world is. Is a 3,000 usd watch a luxury (?) just on price alone HELL YES. don’t get dettached from reality. Most people on earth can’t afford one.
Great episode guys, I’m now more inclined to buy my next (luxury) watch from a micro brand
Job done.
For me - I think bespoke, handmade products by a true artisan is the ultimate in luxury! The product will always cost more than the sum of its parts because you have bought someone’s time and expertise! You have embraced the craftsmanship and even flaws (if any!). Possibly why mechanical seems to always trump quartz in this hobby!
Tag heuer boutique on oxford street was the best service & experience i have ever had from a brand. I get messages from them asking how the watch is on occassion & no other brand has ever given me that sence of giving a shit.
I had an AP on me, one that I bought from the very boutique that I was visiting, and my goal was to collect 6 APs (a mix of Offshores and Royal Oaks) in the beginning of my collection journey. The AP boutique didn't care; they refused to sell me anything. Using anecdotal evidence to conclude that AP cares about collectors is laughable.
A very interesting discussion. We all have our own views on luxury and how we value luxury; you can’t be too definitive, one way or another.
As I put it, if beauty is in the eye of the beholder, then value is in the perception of the purchaser.
I agree with George regarding AD.. we're not new friends, just shut up and give me my watch. I usually ask some wierd question about watch at AD then get super annoyed when they don't know the answer or what I'm talking about.
Great video boys
Extremely interesting, but for me it’s rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
Just my opinion, but I don’t care if my watches are considered luxury. For me a cool watch is a cool watch.
Think George nailed it when he said that’s it’s very personal.
Non sequitur-but love the colors on George’s shirt. Look a little like Roma’s colors and would look great on a chronograph.
It's not really a relevant concern for us as a group either, but an interesting discussion about perceptions.
I watched this video when it came out. I’d been on the waitlist since June 2021 and in December 2023 the day before Christmas I was picking it up. 30 months of wait time but so worth it. Batman on oyster. I’m a regular customer and I had only bought an Explorer a few years earlier.
What you say about Audemars Piguet service and taking care of costumers and collectors do NOT match what collectors are saying on watch related videos. I cant give links here, one hint: Singapore
My take is that most Rolex, Omega, IWC, etc… are accessible luxury or mass luxury watches. None are exclusive, all are mass produced mostly by machines…
Some JLC are mass luxury whereas some are genuine luxury. Same for Rolex, Omega and perhaps IWC…
FP Journe, George Daniel, Roger Smith, etc… watches in contrast are genuine luxury.
Their functional performance has nothing to do in defining a luxury item. For instance Bugatti are indeed luxury items, just look at their price tag and maintenance costs… this is what contributes to their exclusivity… These go extremely fast in a straight line but what about their high weight handicap through corners ?
In contrast Richard Mille are unilaterally luxury because of their stratospheric prices.
What luxury experience isn’t:
- we don’t have that watch sir
- you can express a wish (?) and we’ll see what we can do
- it may take years, we don’t know
- but you can buy upstairs a certified model at twice the price immediately.
Today, many people want what they see successful individuals have. Through marketing and social media, some brands become symbols of luxury. Newcomers often see this and end up with items like Rolex watches or PVC-coated Louis Vuitton handbags.
The 'ZAP' marking that you refer to George is an NSN or NATO Stock Number. The first 4 digits are a group number indicating what type of item it is, followed by the 2 digit origin code or country of origin, with 99 being United Kingdom, the remaining digits break it down further to the exact item in hand. 9 years in RAF logistics seared certain numbers in my mind. A great watch indeed by the way.
That AP House feeling? That's what I get from the people over at Fears, in Bristol. Bowman-Scargill, France, and company really make you feel like you are a guest and a friend, and not just a pocket book.
Simply amazing, I could listen to you guys all night long, and I wish I could share a drink or two with you and be part of the conversation. As someone who has a PhD, the degree of detail and depth of your ideas and thoughts are sufficient material for a thesis on the topic, so many interesting tangents and concepts that can be explored further.