There are things to say about this video, which was produced extremely quickly by my standards (a day and a half!) and suffers as a result. For one thing, it needs better editing (which, although difficult, I can somewhat now do at UA-cam and will do when I get a moment). Other things cannot be fixed now. I regret certain 'loose ends' as stated. I also feel more was needed on Tomberg's belief in Catholicism in contradistinction to a lot flying around the Internet and, alas, even in printed books in this regard. A tragedy . . . I honestly believe. Yes, Tomberg highly esteemed the Orthodox churches of the East, but from close reading it is clear he did not see the complete Church there . . . and he certainly was not advocating some ethereal "Universal Church" that *might-mean-almost-anything* depending on one's own subjective set of preferences. For now, two things. First I simply paste this from his Meditations page 89: "The Catholic Church, being catholic or universal, cannot consider itself as a particular church among other particular churches, nor consider its dogmas as religious opinions among other religious opinions or confessions." And later down the page, he writes, clearly in reference to this: "Dogmatism? Yes, if one understands by "dogma" the certainty due to revelations of divine worth which prove fruitful and constructive, and due to the confirmation that they receive from reason and experience together. When one has certainty based on the concordance of divine revelation, divine-human operation, and human understanding, how can one act as if one did not have it? Is it truly necessary "to deny three times before the cock crows" in order to be accepted into the good company of "free spirits" and "non-dogmatics", and to be chauffeured along with them by the fire of things relating to human creation?" Second, I offer a link to this video on the subject: ua-cam.com/video/37r4_8UZzrw/v-deo.html I also want to thank many of you for your very kind, supportive and meaningful comments. *They really help me*. I will be especially grateful for such comments on this present video and will respond. Indeed, I mean to respond to nearly all such comments, but am slow tight now (slower even than my usually slow response rate). But I will be responding to comments on previous videos and remain very thankful for them. I will now repeat something from an earlier pinned comment "I wish things did not take me so long! Alas, though, they do. Despite the poor technical quality of the videos, I work very hard to get the content right on these productions. Because these videos are meant for the *long-term*. And I need to feel right in my conscience about them as the years pass, especially as-unlike a blog post say-they cannot be revised and reworked in UA-cam. And I already have regrets about things said in earlier videos that, alas, cannot be changed without taking the whole video down . . . So I slowly plod away, slowly responding to your comments and grateful for everything that supports our work on this channel-including the generosity in buying us coffees. In these trying times, I well-know that not everyone can do this! Be we are very grateful indeed to those of you most kindly have" May God greatly bless you all.
An addition: I want to say that this episode is closely related to an earlier Voice-Only episode on this channel that has perhaps an unfortunate name: Episode 41-Tomberg, Monarchy-and the Machine! I say unfortunate because it gives the impression the episode is focussed on Tomberg's thinking on monarchy. In reality, the episode is a real cornucopia of elements: Michael Martin; Christopher Hitchens; Rudolf Steiner; Hilaire Belloc; GAFAM (Google-Apple-Facebook-Amazon-Microsoft) and the Abolition of Europe, and a great deal of my own personal experience of Europe and America. I increasingly think it's one of the *key episodes in this series*. Link, then: ua-cam.com/video/T2d7c-Gu-h4/v-deo.html 1
Dearest Roger, For the past week I have seemingly been guided towards contemplating and treating the subject of Christian Hermeticism that I might understand it better, and more perfectly put it into practice. Recently, I just transcribed all the passages I could find in MotT about it and have been slowly meditating upon them. I have been spiritually starved for expansion of material also treating this subject. And so,by providence, you drop this video and mention Morello writing this book. As always, your videos seem to come just when Our Lady deems it prudent. I will be reading this book and incorporating it into the project I seem to be called into participation in. To have brothers such as yourself and Morello truly is heavenly consolation.
Oh @ignotus_amicus thank you for this kindness and so much more kindness elsewhere. Despite my long silence, you have been in my prayers. What you say here relates, I think, to my comments about the book being 100 books rolled into one. One could easily do what you are doing with the CH passages on many other themes. There is a pdf of the book easily found online which could help you forego the transcribing. On the other hand, the transcribing will deepen your attention to what he is saying. Really there is so much there in the book that if you probe deeper and deeper into it, you may not feel so "spiritually starved for expansion of material". It expands itself the more closely one looks at it. It was really only on a very slow meditative *sixth* reading of the book during a long period of retreat in 2001 that I began to see this. 5 readings were hardly enough and I've read it now something like 13 times. God bless you, my brother in Christ!
Excellent video as usual mate, one person came to mind when you were mentioning Catholic thinkers who were carrying the torch of Tomberg and Christian Hermeticism, that being the late great Cologero Salvo, may he rest in peace, his work “Christmas Meditations” which can be found on Amazon is poignant to us now in Advent, with many chapters on Tombergian practice, concentration without effort, purity of thought, purity of will and many other great mediations on Advent and Christmas. God Bless you Roger !
Thank you dear Roger, very interesting as usual. Have you by chance read another recent book that seems very similar to Morello's - "Living in wonder - Finding mistery and meaning in a secular age" by Rod Dreher? I haven't yet but it seems to be about the same topic and was only published a few months ago.
Very interesting. Fascinating to hear your view of Tomberg as an anthroposophist. The sacred mystery is something that dies appear to be lost. Interesting.
Thank you @glenncharles8514 . As a pinned comment now states, I am not completely happy with this video, produced at crazy speed by my standards. I wish I'd said more to stress a distinction. Namely that, on the one hand, the Sacred Mystery of the Church is never lost in terms of the incredible Sacraments in their unspeakable power and beauty . . . but, on the other hand, that you are right in what you say, just as Sebastian Morello is also right that so much of the theology that informed Vatican II and still informs the Church is indeed obscuring the mystery.
No thank you @rosemarymccarron3887 for continued warmth and support. As indicated in the video, it was not easy to do in current circumstances and your little comments here help.
In your opinion, do you think there is a distinct difference between Christian Hermeticism and Christian mysticism? Examples or mysticism I'm referring to would be Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, and Evelyn Underhill.
Thank you @Silvercardinal7 . Here is a deep question that I can't do full justice to now. But I'll take a inadequate stab at it, anyway. There is a difference in emphasis here. Tomberg speaks about Christian Hermeticists as particularly occupied with the world and the cultural life of humanity in a way not all Christian mystics are. Maybe some quotations can help. I will break them into shorter blocks than the text for easier reading from a screen. "Hermeticism, the living Hermetic tradition, guards the communal soul of all true culture. I must add: *Hermeticists listen to* - and now and then hear - *the beating of the heart of the spiritual life of humanity*. They cannot do otherwise than live as guardians of the life and communal soul of religion, science and art. They do not have any privilege in any of these domains; saints, true scientists, and artists of genius are their superiors. But they live for the mystery of the communal heart which beats within all religions, all philosophies, all arts and all sciences -past, present and future." MotT pg. 6-7 And then there is this quote about Hermeticists being 'theologians of the world' that I alluded to in the episode: We Hermeticists are theologians of that Holy Scripture revealing God which is named "the world"; similarly, theologians of the Holy Scriptures revealing God are Hermeticists in so far as they dedicate their effort to the glory of God. And just as the world is not only a material body but is also soul and spirit, so is the Holy Scripture not simply the "dead letter" but is also soul and spirit. This is why our threefold knowledge (mystical-gnostic-magical) of the world has dedicated itself through the course of the centuries to the glory of the Holy Trinity, just as the threefold knowledge of divine revelation through the Holy Scripture (i.e. through the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Apocalypse) does. Are we not called, we theologians of the world, and you, theologians of the Holy Scripture, to watch at the same altar and to fulfill the same task of not letting the lamp illumined to the glory of God be extinguished in the world? Is it not our com- mon duty to provide for it, to provide the holy oil of human endeavour so that its flame is never extinguished, so that it always bears witness to God by the very fact of its existence, and so that it continues to burn from century to century?" MotT 188 Careful reading of this passage shows how Tomberg uses the term in a wide sense. He says here that theologians of scripture can be Hermeticists too. And he some praises great Saints and Mystics as Hermeticists, as well. But here and elsewhere in the book, there is much to stress the Christian Hermetic vocation has to do with specific attention to human culture and the world, including such depths of the world as the mysterious 15-16th century emergence of the Modern Mind that I refer to in the episode. And that Sebastian has a lot to say about as well . . . I'm hoping to do a follow-up episode on Tomberg and the Modern Mind if I can. One could add that what Tomberg means by Christian Hermeticist has a great deal also to do with contemplating symbols, texts as well as dreams etc (a la the decidedly non-Christian Hermeticist C.G. Jung). So this again points to a different emphasis. Bit quick and sloppy but not too bad a response, I hope. I will tag @ignotus_amicus as he may be interested as well.
@BryanKirch Indeed! And there is actually much in Morello's book that relates to this very thing . . . some of it only tangentially, perhaps, but his thinking certainly supports precisely what you said in those three words. There is so, so much covered in this rollercoaster ride of a book! Thank you for your continued comments here. It may be I have yet to respond to one or more, but I will.
@ i haven’t purchased any books in a while. I stopped consuming other people ideas but I deeply respect your perspective. I will add this book to my future wish list. Thank you as always
There are things to say about this video, which was produced extremely quickly by my standards (a day and a half!) and suffers as a result. For one thing, it needs better editing (which, although difficult, I can somewhat now do at UA-cam and will do when I get a moment).
Other things cannot be fixed now. I regret certain 'loose ends' as stated. I also feel more was needed on Tomberg's belief in Catholicism in contradistinction to a lot flying around the Internet and, alas, even in printed books in this regard. A tragedy . . . I honestly believe.
Yes, Tomberg highly esteemed the Orthodox churches of the East, but from close reading it is clear he did not see the complete Church there . . . and he certainly was not advocating some ethereal "Universal Church" that *might-mean-almost-anything* depending on one's own subjective set of preferences.
For now, two things. First I simply paste this from his Meditations page 89:
"The Catholic Church, being catholic or universal, cannot consider itself as a particular church among other particular churches, nor consider its dogmas as religious opinions among other religious opinions or confessions."
And later down the page, he writes, clearly in reference to this:
"Dogmatism? Yes, if one understands by "dogma" the certainty due to revelations of divine worth which prove fruitful and constructive, and due to the confirmation that they receive from reason and experience together. When one has certainty based on the concordance of divine revelation, divine-human operation, and human understanding, how can one act as if one did not have it?
Is it truly necessary "to deny three times before the cock crows" in order to be accepted into the good company of "free spirits" and "non-dogmatics", and to be chauffeured along with them by the fire of things relating to human creation?"
Second, I offer a link to this video on the subject: ua-cam.com/video/37r4_8UZzrw/v-deo.html
I also want to thank many of you for your very kind, supportive and meaningful comments. *They really help me*. I will be especially grateful for such comments on this present video and will respond.
Indeed, I mean to respond to nearly all such comments, but am slow tight now (slower even than my usually slow response rate). But I will be responding to comments on previous videos and remain very thankful for them.
I will now repeat something from an earlier pinned comment
"I wish things did not take me so long! Alas, though, they do. Despite the poor technical quality of the videos, I work very hard to get the content right on these productions.
Because these videos are meant for the *long-term*. And I need to feel right in my conscience about them as the years pass, especially as-unlike a blog post say-they cannot be revised and reworked in UA-cam. And I already have regrets about things said in earlier videos that, alas, cannot be changed without taking the whole video down . . .
So I slowly plod away, slowly responding to your comments and grateful for everything that supports our work on this channel-including the generosity in buying us coffees. In these trying times, I well-know that not everyone can do this! Be we are very grateful indeed to those of you most kindly have"
May God greatly bless you all.
An addition: I want to say that this episode is closely related to an earlier Voice-Only episode on this channel that has perhaps an unfortunate name: Episode 41-Tomberg, Monarchy-and the Machine! I say unfortunate because it gives the impression the episode is focussed on Tomberg's thinking on monarchy.
In reality, the episode is a real cornucopia of elements: Michael Martin; Christopher Hitchens; Rudolf Steiner; Hilaire Belloc; GAFAM (Google-Apple-Facebook-Amazon-Microsoft) and the Abolition of Europe, and a great deal of my own personal experience of Europe and America. I increasingly think it's one of the *key episodes in this series*. Link, then: ua-cam.com/video/T2d7c-Gu-h4/v-deo.html
1
Dearest Roger,
For the past week I have seemingly been guided towards contemplating and treating the subject of Christian Hermeticism that I might understand it better, and more perfectly put it into practice. Recently, I just transcribed all the passages I could find in MotT about it and have been slowly meditating upon them.
I have been spiritually starved for expansion of material also treating this subject. And so,by providence, you drop this video and mention Morello writing this book. As always, your videos seem to come just when Our Lady deems it prudent. I will be reading this book and incorporating it into the project I seem to be called into participation in. To have brothers such as yourself and Morello truly is heavenly consolation.
Oh @ignotus_amicus thank you for this kindness and so much more kindness elsewhere. Despite my long silence, you have been in my prayers.
What you say here relates, I think, to my comments about the book being 100 books rolled into one. One could easily do what you are doing with the CH passages on many other themes.
There is a pdf of the book easily found online which could help you forego the transcribing. On the other hand, the transcribing will deepen your attention to what he is saying.
Really there is so much there in the book that if you probe deeper and deeper into it, you may not feel so "spiritually starved for expansion of material". It expands itself the more closely one looks at it.
It was really only on a very slow meditative *sixth* reading of the book during a long period of retreat in 2001 that I began to see this. 5 readings were hardly enough and I've read it now something like 13 times. God bless you, my brother in Christ!
Excellent video as usual mate, one person came to mind when you were mentioning Catholic thinkers who were carrying the torch of Tomberg and Christian Hermeticism, that being the late great Cologero Salvo, may he rest in peace, his work “Christmas Meditations” which can be found on Amazon is poignant to us now in Advent, with many chapters on Tombergian practice, concentration without effort, purity of thought, purity of will and many other great mediations on Advent and Christmas. God Bless you Roger !
Thank you dear Roger, very interesting as usual. Have you by chance read another recent book that seems very similar to Morello's - "Living in wonder - Finding mistery and meaning in a secular age" by Rod Dreher? I haven't yet but it seems to be about the same topic and was only published a few months ago.
Very interesting. Fascinating to hear your view of Tomberg as an anthroposophist. The sacred mystery is something that dies appear to be lost. Interesting.
Thank you @glenncharles8514 . As a pinned comment now states, I am not completely happy with this video, produced at crazy speed by my standards.
I wish I'd said more to stress a distinction. Namely that, on the one hand, the Sacred Mystery of the Church is never lost in terms of the incredible Sacraments in their unspeakable power and beauty . . . but, on the other hand, that you are right in what you say, just as Sebastian Morello is also right that so much of the theology that informed Vatican II and still informs the Church is indeed obscuring the mystery.
Thank you Roger.
No thank you @rosemarymccarron3887 for continued warmth and support. As indicated in the video, it was not easy to do in current circumstances and your little comments here help.
Well said.
Bless you and thank you @snowyskylar8821!
Roger might have changed the image with each ringing of the church bell just for a bit of variety.
In your opinion, do you think there is a distinct difference between Christian Hermeticism and Christian mysticism? Examples or mysticism I'm referring to would be Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, and Evelyn Underhill.
Thank you @Silvercardinal7 . Here is a deep question that I can't do full justice to now. But I'll take a inadequate stab at it, anyway.
There is a difference in emphasis here. Tomberg speaks about Christian Hermeticists as particularly occupied with the world and the cultural life of humanity in a way not all Christian mystics are.
Maybe some quotations can help. I will break them into shorter blocks than the text for easier reading from a screen.
"Hermeticism, the living Hermetic tradition, guards the communal soul of all true culture. I must add: *Hermeticists listen to* - and now and then hear -
*the beating of the heart of the spiritual life of humanity*.
They cannot do otherwise than live as guardians of the life and communal soul of religion, science and art. They do not have any privilege in any of these domains; saints, true scientists, and artists of genius are their superiors.
But they live for the mystery of the communal heart which beats within all religions, all philosophies, all arts and all sciences -past, present and future."
MotT pg. 6-7
And then there is this quote about Hermeticists being 'theologians of the world' that I alluded to in the episode:
We Hermeticists are theologians of that Holy Scripture revealing God which is named "the world"; similarly, theologians of the Holy Scriptures revealing God are Hermeticists in so far as they dedicate their effort to the glory of God. And just as the world is not only a material body but is also soul and spirit, so is the Holy Scripture not simply the "dead letter" but is also soul and spirit. This is why our threefold knowledge (mystical-gnostic-magical) of the world has dedicated itself through the course of the centuries to the glory of the Holy Trinity, just as the threefold knowledge of divine revelation through the Holy Scripture (i.e. through the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Apocalypse) does.
Are we not called, we theologians of the world, and you, theologians of the Holy Scripture, to watch at the same altar and to fulfill the same task of not letting the lamp illumined to the glory of God be extinguished in the world? Is it not our com- mon duty to provide for it, to provide the holy oil of human endeavour so that its flame is never extinguished, so that it always bears witness to God by the very fact of its existence, and so that it continues to burn from century to century?"
MotT 188
Careful reading of this passage shows how Tomberg uses the term in a wide sense. He says here that theologians of scripture can be Hermeticists too. And he some praises great Saints and Mystics as Hermeticists, as well.
But here and elsewhere in the book, there is much to stress the Christian Hermetic vocation has to do with specific attention to human culture and the world, including such depths of the world as the mysterious 15-16th century emergence of the Modern Mind that I refer to in the episode.
And that Sebastian has a lot to say about as well . . . I'm hoping to do a follow-up episode on Tomberg and the Modern Mind if I can.
One could add that what Tomberg means by Christian Hermeticist has a great deal also to do with contemplating symbols, texts as well as dreams etc (a la the decidedly non-Christian Hermeticist C.G. Jung). So this again points to a different emphasis.
Bit quick and sloppy but not too bad a response, I hope.
I will tag @ignotus_amicus as he may be interested as well.
Interesting...
Thank you @FraterRC.
You should listen to the Gnostalgia podcast if you haven't already!
@OUTBOUND184 Thank you. I hardly listen to podcasts, but I will take a look at that!
@@RogerBuck OK great. It's Morello's new podcast with Brian Scarffe.
Catholic land movement….
@BryanKirch Indeed! And there is actually much in Morello's book that relates to this very thing . . . some of it only tangentially, perhaps, but his thinking certainly supports precisely what you said in those three words.
There is so, so much covered in this rollercoaster ride of a book! Thank you for your continued comments here. It may be I have yet to respond to one or more, but I will.
@ i haven’t purchased any books in a while. I stopped consuming other people ideas but I deeply respect your perspective. I will add this book to my future wish list. Thank you as always