Only an American would struggle so much to say that we need stronger standards. Yes it means safety and sure it will increase the price in the short term but it will allow competition and innovation in the right direction and should insure repairability.
yeah, this is definitely a fair point. It is weird how our society has come to except the chaotic ways that our markets operate. I guess I’m just trying not to alienate myself in too much as I present ideas which might be uncomfortable to the average American.
Yes, at first I thought this was some comedy intro to a group Twitter D&I meeting. Lol. Just spit it out, many batteries, especially lithium ion, are assembled without proper cell isolation, such that the bike falling over can cause the cells from adjacent brick to rub through the wrapper and create direct short. I bought a $300 chinese ebike with a removable battery box. Inside the box is a lithium ion battery wrapped on blue and cushioned bottom, left, right and front. Inside the blue wrapping is a 13s5p 18650 cell holder that ensures these will never touch each other unless you get run over by a truck. Furthermore this battery slides in between the frame rails. The battery has a 15a BMS and a 20a fuse on output and 5a fuse on charge port. Charger is 2a and controller is 13a. My ebike has fallen over about 5 times so far. Many DIY batteries from China are assembled carelessly, no cell holder, improperly arranged for proper tabbing, no foam padding, and they are normally designed to be mounted in an unprotected frame. One crash and the batteries can easily short and catch on fire.
OnLy An AmEriCan. Oh, please. It's because these are rare and isolated incidents. The reality is that there is a strong bias against ebikes because it challenges the gas industry and devalues oil and their related industries. So does solar power. You're naive if you cannot see this bias.
As long as there are unregulated, untested, and uncertified e-bikes, conversion kits, and battery components for sale, this issue is just going to grow, and damage the larger e-bike industry. If all the other electrical/electronic equipment in my home, from my toaster to my TV needs to be tested and certified safe, then it's time all e-bikes and their systems follow suit in order to be sold in the US.
UL Listing does not guarantee safety. It sets a standard but one does not need UL certification to build a safe battery. If you want to solve this once and for all, subsidize A123 cells so that they are affordable and easily accessible. A123 are not your normal LiFeP04 cells, they have the power output to blow away nearly all of the more dangerous chemistries with the only downside being their lower energy density but it terms of personal electric vehicles I think there is enough space on any scooter/bike/whatever wheeled vehicle to build a battery with decent range that can take advantage of the fast charging A123 cells are capable of. Yes, I'm aware we already gave the company millions and it ended up being purchased by some Chinese group but now there is Lithium Werks who bought some of the assets/IP and manufacture the 18650 and 26650 M1B cells. Thanks to the nanophosphate technology you can abuse the shit out of those cells and it won't kill them or make them blow up. I don't want to see subsidizing Lithium Werks hurting other vendors so I'd just like to see a 48V 15Ah or 20Ah battery with a BMS that limits the output be offered for a reasonable price ($300/$400?) and easily available to everyone in the US via UPS or Fedex within a week. Currently you can get used 26650 M1B cells at $100 for 100 cells that test over 90% capacity at 1C/>98% at 0.2C. A battery that would last 10 years for your average commuter and 5 years for a delivery driver would make those cheap $200 Chinese batteries a terrible choice. Only the dumbest of troglodytes would think saving a little money now makes any sense. If you institute a requirement for something as expensive as UL certification (simple electrical products: the process can cost several hundred thousand dollars) you'll see the battery builders just go to extremes to hide their batteries in shells of UL approved batteries and trust me, the shells will be readily available on Aliexpress and elsewhere. 99% of people I've met in the homemade battery scene go above and beyond when dealing with the more dangerous chemistries like NMC and NCA. Look at the designs on Endless Sphere, considering the budget differences between large companies and a battery builder the level of safety is impressive. More importantly, the users on Endless Sphere are often very much aware of what they are building and know that your average Joe should not be sold any of the homemade batteries we create simply because they lack the knowledge of dangers of certain chemistries to handle them appropriately. I would have loved to give my brother's hippie girlfriend a power bank built with the cells out of her disposable vapes but after a lot of testing and being unable to find official datasheets for the cells I realized I would be handing her something that I didn't even have full understanding of. I've rigged up some funny prototypes with 100W USB Power Delivery Boards and have charged MacBooks/ iPads, phones, powered 7,000 lumen LED lights, one wheel batteries, all kinds of shit. Right to repair should absolutely apply to batteries. It's already fucked that the only major manufacturer of cells that doesn't go out of their way to stop us from getting cells is Molicel. God forbid this push for "safety" leads us to a world where lithium cells require a permit to purchase. This entire argument really is no different than the firearms argument. Do you want liberty or do you want an abusive mother that keeps you "safe" because time and time again the government has proven to be nothing more than a two faced abusive parent. Your safety is your responsibility. Worried about the place you live at going up in flames? Move somewhere that has banned what you fear. Private property owners have the right to decide what they want on their property. There's some deeper nuances to what landlords should be allowed to control but as long as there exists a market that is not a monopoly then let the consumer find what suits them best if they are a renter.
He said he isn't an engineer, I think most people wouldn't get it. UL certification, or IPX waterproof ratings are things that people understand. I have seen some decent videos on here, but am still learning myself so I would hesitate to recommend one.
That's not the direction this channel wants to move into. Ideally there shouldn't be any DIY as it requires a high level of experitise not only in electrical engineering but also product design as bikes are moving through really harsh roads and weather conditions.
@@SonnyDarvish But as a consumer it would be nice to know what to look for and what to avoid. An educated consumer is what I am talking about rather than DIY.
Cheap Chinese batteries are typically the problem. For instance, the cheap hoverboard knockoffs were catching fire so often that stores stopped selling them. Quality batteries with BMS shouldn’t experience fires. Cut corners and problems are guaranteed.
I totally agree. Although it wasn’t 100%, the cheap or hazardous products that caused stores to stop selling products. It seems as though it was government intervention.
Batteries are usually the most expensive part of an e-bike conversion. People will try to cheapen out and buy some shady poorly-made crap. Voltage and discharge are often not what is listed. Also, people might not be using compatible chargers. These scenarios are just asking for trouble. I got a conversion kit from Grin Tech, just the battery alone was nearly $1,000. The batteries that you hear on the news catching fire or exploding were around the $300 range.
@@Yoshikarter1 tbf 1000$ for a battery is totally overpriced. If we consider a 10s4p inr2170-50E battery then the bill of material would be: 40 cells = 3$*40 = 120$ BMS ~ 30$ Case ~ 20$ Wiring and miscellaneous ~ 10$ That's 180$ while being very generous on the prices, even with quality components. Now with some quality assembly in China the price of the pack could easily still be less than 300$.
@@castortoutnu that’s great. Now factor in shipping, marketing, and margins, manufacturer, wholesale, and retail. It will likely be closer to $500. Or more. And shipping Li batteries will also get harder. A UPS plane crashed a few years ago in the Middle East because of lithium battery fire. All hands lost. If this is a hypothetical vendor then they could hypothetically can get UL rating. If they can’t, then there is something wrong. Subtle but real. The fires are real as well.
There are certain factors which makes this more prevalent in NYC than other places 1. Delivery drivers. It seems that the bulk of ebike riders in NYC are Uber eats/other delivery drivers. Given their limited socio-economic background, they are not buying brand name ebikes but are in many cases buying off-brand/ conversion kit bikes from overseas. Let's just say there is limited QA on those products. 2. With regards to your point about newer buildings with bike storage and bike friendly features, a significant chunk of NYC housing stock is pretty old and those built in the last 20 years are skewed heavily in favor of high end luxury buildings which I assume many of those riding ebikes as Uber Eats drivers are not living in.
I have been listening to Propel's UA-cam videos for the past couple of months and I have been struck by how much I have learned. I have owned several ebikes in the last 15 years not thinking about battery safety and sustainability. I acted on this new information and purchased a Riese & Muller Nevo GT from Propel in Delaware two weeks ago. The battery, motor and electronics are all Bosch. Now I don't worry about fire, what do I do when the battery dies, electronic display goes blank and the motor seizes. The ebikes I have thrown away were due no support, believe me I tried to find a way to fix them. Rock on Propel!
As far as NYC goes, I think a lot of these apartment fires happen because of the stolen e-bike market. Bike theft is very prevalent in NYC, and so many people buy electric bikes from places like Offerup or Facebook market place, looking for a deal, but not fully realizing that what they're buying is stolen. A stolen bike will not come with a charger, but if the price is right, a lot of buyers will take a stab in the dark as to which charger goes to this fenced bike they just bought, and that's where I suspect a ton of these apartment fires are coming from. I would recommend buying an electric bike brand new from a reputable seller every single time, but if anyone insists on buying used, hammer it into your head that anyone selling a bike without keys a *HUMUNGUS* red flag. There's an overwhelming number of Offerup posts of Arrow 8's, 9's and 10's with the disclaimer "NO KEYS". Why would someone not have the keys to a bike they're selling? The answer should be obvious. No keys = No charger. It isn't worth the price, no matter how good the deal may be on the surface.
I'm European and I have never heard of these batteries catching fire here. Maybe they are. But it has not been in the news, AFAIK. In the EU we have quite strict safety laws for electrical products though.
@@nian60 i have not looked into this much but we have more 'normal' ebikes i guess mostly from brands who have been in the market for a long time. ebikes are not seen as a 'toy' where the first question is how fast can i make it go and how many watts does it have. The netherlands now has 3.8M ebikes and we are not flooded (no pun intended) with fires. i am sure the numbers are up but not inline with the number or ebikes sold.
Happens quite often in the Netherlands but with more than half a million e-bikes sold per year it makes sense I guess. I don't recall it ever lead to any serious injuries though. Only property damage.
@@eggy6857 well it happens for sure but its hard to find numbers 2020 and 2021 the number seems to be between 80 and 120 on a installed base of 3.8M ebikes. I doubt NY has 3.8M ebikes so we are talking about a totally different scale. Even then i think indeed many ebikes in nl are in special bike areas, semi-outside or people are more careful during charging. But a large part has to be simply better batteries and chargers.
For the DIY community EM3EV are the gold standard. They even silicone every seal that's how much attention to detail they have. Reminds me of the internet starting out very wild west lots of awesome progression but on the other side of the blade there's people making money quick at the exspense of others. Standardisation of battery tech needs to be implemented in major markets just simple things like cells not phyisically contacting, thermal run-off protection on the BMS, education on charging practeses. This goes for all transport" not just bikes" which is a good channel btw
It sounds like it. Louis Rossman also swears by them and we used them a few times in our early days when we were still doing conversions. I wonder if they could become UL listed? It would be a shame for them not to be able to continue.
I think there is an amazing opportunity for someone to make aftermarket batteries that meet UL standards to refurbish some of these products with problems. I think you are being an advocate for the industry and trying to get ahead of what really looks like a serious problem. Your commitment to quality products is setting the standard. You can pay up front for quality, or pay later with tragedy. You are once again, ahead of the game.
*Generalized comment* Chris, your an amazing person to have as a leader in this industry and movement, especially in the US, where we need all the help we can get. What you do, the way you present, the topics you discuss, and the products you've chosen to sell are all admirable and respectable. I just want to say that I hope you find the inspiration and strength to keep all of this up long into the future. You're very gifted and seemingly a nature at what you do here.
The same can be said about you! I really appreciate all your support! Sometimes it’s not easy to stand on ground on your own. But this is definitely the necessary step if we want to improve.
As a builder, I am quite surprised that little has changed since the hoverboard crash. It seems that the first weak link in the chain has been the BMS. You can has the best cells on the market with a poorly designed BMS and poof, whereas even poorly matched cells of questionable origins can be safely managed with a decent BMS. It is my understanding that people are leaving these ebikes or other devices plugged in past their required charge time. A BMS should be able to handle this. Though a proper BMS may not eliminate all of these fires, it certainly would mitigate the front page splash with so many runaways. Personally , I build with only LFP batteries to avoid these persistent issues. Great topic!
Thanks for your discussion on battery safety. You may be the only guy out there asking battery safety questions. After hearing your comments, I was in the garage in 2 minutes to check my bikes. I have TerraTrek EVO (2.5 years): battery is UL approved. I have a Ride1Up 700 (2 yrs): Battery has only EC mark. I have a Lectric XP 3.0 (2 months old): Battery has only EC mark. I will query Ride1Up and Lectric to determine if their batteries now have UL rating. Thanks again. William Simonson, Mount Pleasant, WI
I unfortunately have first hand experience of having a house fire started by a e-cargobike battery. This was from a reputable German company. Probably the best would be to acknowledge that Li batteries always carry this risk, you can only mitigate it to some degree: don't charge batteries unattended, possibly charge outdoors (though not possible when cold) or fireresistant location, take battery off the charger when full. There are also special boxes for battery charging, that may help to contain the possible damage.
The first time I heard about e-bike batteries catching fire was from news reports I saw on UA-cam coming out of London. I saw the news reports a few months ago, but I don’t know when the actual fires were. At the time, I thought, “Oh no! They must not have good standards and consumer protection over there!” Thanks for your videos and all the great work you do!
good video. I think low cost chargers do not shut off when the battery is fully charged, in fact the charger cannot detect full charge, depending on the end user to unplug when charging is done. Another problem is having too many chargers plugged into a single power strip / circuit, resulting in high current and overheating on old in-wall electrical wiring. My Specialized Vado 5 charger does auto-shut off at full charge, but the lower cost Bafang units do not.
this is a fair point. However, Specialized had battery issues as well on their Levo. And Bafang is actually now producing some certified products, so we should try to give them credit where it’s due. I’ve actually had many conversations with them on this topic and I appreciate that making some strides in this area.
Would be interesting if there is any technical analysis of these fires. A lot of the cheaper batteries use cheaper no-name cells, and BMS systems with no heat management installed.Also substandard wiring (aluminium coated iron straps instead of pure aluminium, or not thick enough to handle the load), welds and so on.
Here in middle Georgia every winter there's fire cause by heater. But you don't hear the band of heaters. There's basically no education on how to properly operate a small electrical heater. We don't have snow every year and our winter season is not that long. Some people just don't have the common sense or sometimes housing unit are not that up to date when it comes to electrical system. I don't think they should put the blame on electric bikes without doing due process. I do like the idea of having a basement to store the ebikes and charging station. Maybe that would prevent fire in dwellings.
Excellent video. I had seen the reports about a LOT of eBike fires in NYC. From what I recall, it seemed a lot of them were from delivery service bikes and perhaps a question of 'any given charger is good enough when folks wanted to charge up quickly. There may or may not be something specifically different about chargers/batteries/ other components between brands? Certainly, there have been electric car fires and issues as well. It's a scary dilemma, I hope the issue(s) get understood and worked out quickly.
Neither of these include independent testing standards for a battery and as such I wouldn’t trust them as a replacement for something similar to a UL standard
Thanks for the video Chris. Are people charging their bikes unattended such that the batteries overheat? Many people charge devices overnight without issue however an e-bike battery is a different animal. I feel confident with my Riese & Müller and Bosch battery but still charge it while home and awake.
i wonder if the fact that most other countries limit the bikes to 250Watts, and 15-18 MPH. Which probably means they use less power and probably smaller batteries. The battery may burn, but since there would be less energy involved, they might not cause so much damage. I look at a lot of UA-cam videos, and many people are mainly concerned with power and speed.
Louis mentioned in his battery fire video how he was really happy with a certain battery pack company but he tried a different, lower cost one for a change and it resulted in the fire in that video. Hope you have a conversation with Louis on this topic. It would be nice to have somebody with electrical knowledge describe what makes a good battery vs a bad battery, what could go wrong in them, how to take care of them, etc. Really interesting topic.
Chris great informative video. The portable power stations are going to LiFePO4 batteries instead of LiPO4. More recharges and less fire potential. At least that’s what they are saying. Have you heard about e-bikes changing to this newer battery. The Fe battery has lower energy density, heavier and bigger. But they say it’s nontoxic and more easily disposed of. Instead of “more power” the ebike and battery industry need “safer power”
one thing that is a clear trend , NEW bosch batteries are not catching fire anywhere. And yes we have this problem in Oregon mostly from cheap replacement batteries sold by alibaba.
As a retired insurance risk manager and investigator, I would want to see if there are one or more factors that link these fires. Is it one bike manf, or one battery/charger manf, age of battery, damage to battery or chargers preceding events, did they get wet, are the batteries listed, etc. Until someone thoroughly compares these (and many other factors), it is premature to say ebikes in general are dangerous and or fire hazards.
Such a relevant topic in todays world, batteries for almost everything we live with and use ( cars, phones, cameras - the list goes on), I am also concerned and glad you have taken the time and effort to start the realization and much needed conversation on the issue. I would like think that there is a data reference as to the type and manufacture of the hazardous batteries, not to point fingers but data is needed to help fill in the conversation on e.bike battery safety.
Thanks for this. Yep, UL or similar certification. Other much more common hazards 1) cell phone batterys, I was curious about a old battery, it ignited in a unextinguishable hot hot fire, an eyeopener (yes outside away from other flammables) 2) Gasoline, my apartment allows automobiles with 20 gallons of gas or more to drive up the parking ramp, many floors to park within 20 feet of a sleeping quarters. 3) And whats to keep a ignoramus to carry a gallon of gas into a residential structure? So yeah easily to get wrapped around the axle on this....on all safety issues. Hopefully , cooler (non-flammable) heads will prevail on this issue.
thanks for bringing this up snd talking about it head on! i have a bike - it’s not electric tho. this is a difficult topic. it will affect the food delivery guys! they are barely scraping buy with these bikes as their livelihoods. not sure how this should progress.
A couple thoughts here: First, thank you for your honesty and concern for people’s safety, even when this topic could potentially damage demand for the product you’re selling. I recently bought a used Bosch- powered ebike (we couldn’t afford a new one), and while this discussion has reaffirmed my decision to go with a certified system, it’s also convinced me to be more cautious about when / how I charge it. I have 2 little kids (I use the bike to pull them along in a bike trailer), and their safety is the most important thing to me. 2nd: Like many others in this thread, I’m not an engineer and don’t understand the technicalities of what makes some batteries safe and others dangerous, including the importance of using chargers designed for that particular battery system. Chris, I know you’re not an expert at battery chemistry, but if you could use your connections to facilitate a discussion with someone who is, that would be super helpful! 3rd: Additional regulation seems like a no-brainer here. As another commenter noted, the decision to mandate safety standards in cars (seatbelts, airbags, reverse cameras, etc) has made cars both safer and more desireable. Additionally, other regulations which were initially vehemently opposed by the auto industry have actually spurred innovation and made cars objectively better. Minimum fuel economy standards forced auto makers to innovate ways to build more efficient, powerful engines as well as design cars that slip through the air more efficiently.
even before i watch i can say, depends on which battery there is not enough consistency between brands and because a good battery that we demand become bigger and bigger each year cost are high brands will cut corners.
@@Propelbikes yeah i am not happy that for my r&m a new bosch battery is 800+ euro's and we don't have to be that smart to figure out many of these say $1200 bikes total are not using $800-$900 batteries, controllers and chargers. but safety costs money in all parts of these bikes
from what I have seen, the Bosch batteries are the safest in the business. They really hold no punches there. Keep in mind they are battery experience comes from the power tool industry and those guys are really hard on those things.
Thanks so much for posting this thoughtful video. I have a Blix and reached out to them about the batteries on my Packa. They responded saying that their batteries are UL compliant, but not UL certified. This seems a little gray to me but it's somewhat comforting I suppose... I'll continue to charge only on my basement cement floor during the day when I'm home, not far from the smoke alarm. Has the NYC fire department provided any details about the batteries that have spontaneously combusted? Any commonality to the circumstances? Are they all grade C batteries from dubious sources? Are they being used in conjunction in the wrong battery chargers? Were the batteries damaged prior to charging? It would be enormously helpful to know more details about these fires which might enable landlords to ban problematic products without blanket restrictions on all electric assist bikes. Also, aren't all apartments required to have smoke alarms and fire extinguishers? I don't fully understand how these fires are happening.
Hello Chris...an important topic in NY but all I can say is you inspired me to buy Riese & Müller Nevo ebike...for sure this was not a cheap option but it was the right one! Thank you for posting these videos...we have nothing like this in the UK....keep it dude! 👌
You as a retailer , have to get to the media after each fire and press them to investigate whether the offending battery was actually tested or not, push the fact that it simply is not a problem in UK or Europe . We have had electric hire bikes and scooters for some years and I've never seen a fire reported.
I don’t think that that’s necessary as I can say with relative certainty that the batteries that are causing the fires are not tested. I guess it would be nice for that to be included in reports going forward. It be nice for the public to start differentiating products that are or are not tested.
@@Propelbikes If you you follow up every ebike fire report in your area youll soon be the go -to 'expert' that the media will come to for comment. That will do your business no harm and , as they say there's no such thing as bad publicity
Right to repair does not include repairing batteries, but rather having the ability to replace the battery. For example the Onewheel GT battery is serialized and tamper-proofed. Meaning that as soon as you unplug the battery, the entire system is now a boat anchor. Only the factory can resurrect it.
Thank you for all the time and effort you put in sharing valuable information. It helped me narrow my shopping down to only Bosch motorized eMTBs from Trek for my wife and I. I just wish I could have bought our ebikes from Propel, but your shops are too far from Quebec City, QC Canada. We both love cycling with our eMTBs because they help us gradually get back in shape. And the confidence we have when charging their batteries is primarily because of the extra investment Bosch has been making in testing their system for charging safety as well (something we learned from your channel!). I already know my next bike will be a Riese & Muller Superdelite Mountain, which I may try to buy from Propel then (especially if you open shops closer to where I live!)...
Bring on the regulations as soon as possible before we have a massive catastrophe. There has been plenty of warning. Social media and bike shops are probably the best way to get the word out . What is the next best action here to get this ball rolling in the right direction. Awaiting my Reise Mueller ( from Propel) after wearing my non Bosch kit e bike out luckily no fires. Thanks for this important conversation. Connecticut safety obsessed physician.
From previous experience with hospital equipment, getting a UL certificate is some what complicated each unit type (make and model ) will require a separate review and with all the advancements in technology this will be an ongoing effort and may take up to year for each certificate. I doubt there will be single certificate that would cover ebike batteries as a whole.
I do not think eBikes will be killed by battery-fires. But it may cause problems. One thing you do not mention is measures owners can take to reduce the risks to them. - outside under a roof, safe from flooding, against a brick wall is a lot safer than indoors, in between flammable elements that can spread toxic fumes and with risks of blocked ventilation. Think where you'll charge and include a small risk of fire in your assessment. - Charge with the battery in a non-flammable environment. I once pointed out to a friend who placed his battery on top of a cardboard box with styrofoam in his garage that if there ever was a fire the fumes would be toxic and spread. Coolng requires ventilation, but one can still charge in a relatively enclosed place of metal and or stones that will prevent flames from spreading. - do not mess with leads etc.. If a lead has to be replaced make sure it can carry the correct amps etc.. - water and electricity do not mix. This can include consensation (charging in kitchens or under shoddy roofs etc.), under tables with vases or drinks in glasses being consumed, outdoor floodings and leaks can risk fires.
Right to repair is essential. Though, I would agree that with certain repaired product must be tested to confirm it's safe. And replacement parts themselves must be high quality and certified.
chargers / charging is most risky time - Smarter chargers good place to start - increase Standards for Chargers and BMS - Decide on Standard Charger Plug to battery - Lipo cells are most risky - wonder number of fires that Lipo involved ?
Just remember that lithium doesn't catch fire until it heats up to 350 F. Check on your battery as you charge it. It shouldn't even get too warm to touch. My Velotric bike battery, which is UL Listed, doesn't get hotter than 105 F, I can put my hand on it all day while it charges.
Perhaps another part of this discussion should involve the exploration of other battery chemistries than lithium ion. There are other chemistries being developed, primarily it seems for supply reasons, but could one of these other chemistries be safer in handling as well?
UL is in the USA, CE in Europe, I own a few items that are certified by one or the other. Maybe Europe is using CE to certify their batteries. I bought a Bikonit e- bike and had my batteries recall do to chance of fire when charging, there are companies that self-check their products
Hello, I just watched your complete video! I wanted to share with you how I go about safely charging my e-bike battery. I live in a condo, I have the battery in a metal trash can out on the patio and the trash can is insulated with three layers of 1000 degree insulating wrap that is it's wrapped all the way around the battery on the inside of the can on the top and the bottom 4 layers at 1000 degree temperature rating with each layer .1000 x 4 = 4000 deg. Whereas typically e-bike battery Burns at 3300 degrees. And then I have a cam Buckle strap wrapped around the can through the handle on the top of the can that secures the lid in the event of the battery Catching Fire which would create not only fire but compression from the burning. Once again I said this is out on my patio not in the envelope of the building. The charger has a timer on it so that it will shut off even in the event that the BMS fails.I always charge when I'm present and awake. You are providing a great service!
Good on you, Chris, for shining a calm, steady light on this. IMO as an engineer, first priority should be to compile stats, like by the NYFD, of whose device(s) (battery, charger) failed, circumstances (temp, rh, etc), and any other relevant parameters. Then when we've identified the problem, we can discuss all the aspects of proposed solutions. Yes, national (or larger scope) is preferable. We need to get as much brain-power as possible engaged here, on a continuing basis, including informing the public about the importance of this work.
I tried posting this on the /r/ebikes subreddit and they downvoted the hell out of it, saying it's "still way safer than cars". I think there's a very large portion of the ebikes community that refuses to accept and acknowledge the problems with a lack of regulation. These fires are so preventable for the most part...
That form is full of diyers who think it's some threat to the craft of diy ebikes to mention how dangerous their shitty jerry rigged bikes are. They're willing to ignore the dangers because all they want at the end of the day is to say yeah I made my own ebike, or bought an ebike, I'm so badass, they don't want anyone to point out they didn't research enough when they made that decision or that their item can blow up easily, they get offended. Also the throttle-only ebike owners who want to be able to ride in the bike lanes with all the other non pedal bicycles which is laughable. I dont go to that form anymore.
I am following the progress of available ebikes for years now. I'm in Europe and not seeing them lower end products in huge numbers, what I see in the US "ready to be shipped". Yes, we can also order them from Asian countries, but they take forever to arrive and pay extra taxes and warranty issues and so on.. What i hear tho is that apartment blocks banning electric cars to be charged in their underground carparks. Thanks for the video!
Man this is depressing Chris. I'm not concened at all as I only own Treks, and Specialized ebikes. I take care of my bikes and batteries and use common sense when charging. I'll never give up my ebikes!
I live in a condo building that does not have adequate segregated bike parking. So , I keep my e-bike (a Trek Allant+ 7s) in the unit. Owing to recent reporting of battery fires, I no longer keep my bike on the charger - and charge it only when I plan to ride it soon after plugging it in. There are other e-bikes in the buildings ... and I do not know what protocols the of owners are following. This is a big safety issue that could deter/derail the e-bike phenomena. So, I hope the industry gets it figured out soon. Thank you for talking about this issue. A broader reveal, analysis and, perhaps, dialog is needed. Needed more is a reliable solution to preventing battery fires.
This specific topic is what holds me back from buying an ebike. I'm looking at Aventon, assuming they'll be safer, but I'm still concerned. I live in high-rise, 11th floor to be exact. I worry about the battery catching fire and trapping my wife and myself.
@@Propelbikes Wow. I didn't know that about Aventon. Thanks. Is that info available on most companies website? I was also considering Ride 1 Up and Velotric.
they're starting to have the same problems with air fryers with new brands coming into the market causing kitchen fires when not being used but left plugged in on standby
Tough topic and no right answers it feels like. @propel - The lower cost UL options, are they full UL 2849 or just battery and charger? I haven't seen any UL complete systems in the US currently available (I know panasonic is coming) other than bosch.
Chris, In the UK the national media are tripping over themselves to report any and all battery fires whether its an e-scooter, e-bike or EV, if there was a significant number of incidents you would have heard about it. Currently only rental e-scooters are legal and along with e-bikes are limited to 250w motors, in the US I see 750w, 1500W e-bikes and e-scooters running at 60v, my Riese & Müller e-bikes are 36v and 250w, do you think that could be a factor along with poor quality chargers? iPhone fires when they occur are often due to cheap, poor quality third party chargers rather than defective batteries. A 250w motor running at 36v draws just under 7 amps, a 1500w motor running at 60v draws 25 amps. I note Bosch voluntarily test to a standard, I feel reasonably confident of their safety, nothing is 100%. Should the make of e-bikes and chargers involved in the fires be named? Well done for raising the issue and producing a very well thought out video.
I discussed this a little bit in the video. I suspect the UK is still impacted by the EU anti-dumping tariffs even since the split. I do believe this is a factor. Certainly some level oversight over the size and power of the ebikes escooters would have an impact as well. In New York it seems that the city is having trouble controlling what actually comes in.
The media are jumping all over it because they are doing anything to show that EVs are rubbish and fossil fuels (or now hydrogen fuels) are amazing and the future, probably because they are paid to by lobbyists or other fossil fuel groups. The last fires I have seen first hand, a ice car went up in flames, and an old lady left her cooker on catching fire to the kitchen.
This is the elephant in the room and it needs to be discussed and regulated, imo. I have 2 ebikes, one for myself and one for my girlfriend, not going to mention the brands. But they are Chinese and met a price point that we could afford. One bike is ul listed on the battery and charger and one is not. I didnt know about the importance of this standard until recently, if I had known about it I wouldn't have purchased one of the bikes. All chargers and batteries need to be ul listed! Will it drive up the cost of some bikes? Probably. Will some brands go away because of it? Probably. But it needs to happen. I have a detached garage that I store our bikes in and charge them in, but I still set the chargers on the concrete when charging. It's one thing to have your garage burn down, but another to have your house burn down. At the minimum I think all batteries and chargers should have the ul listing as a requirement.
I think that a contributing factor is that the American market expects higher power from their bikes than the Europeans, where power is restricted to 250W, and speed is restricted to 15mph. High power systems inevitably leads to higher currents in the batteries and control systems, whether they are designed for it or not.
In the region where I live, we haven't heard or read about this problem in months, so we naturally begin to think the problem must have been solved, which it apparently hasn't. I would like to think higher-quality bikes from Europe and the U.S. are less-inclined to suffer "thermal runaway," but there exist so many ultra-cheap Chinese bikes everywhere, including the one owned by my apartment neighbor - directly below me.
Europe has two things that do this one. Europe definitely has a higher base standard. They also have a higher level of accountability if something is to go wrong. I don’t see this on the same level in the US.
I went out of my way to buy my R-14 from you because of your interest in safety and promotion of quality products. I now have over 1,000 urban miles on my bike. Battery performance has been excellent. Never an issue with charging not going to spec. The Bosch system is just as advertised - excellent. Testing and manufacturing standards need to imposed. A follow up video on legislation and industry improvements might be timely.
NYC should be investigating the make/model of equipment that caused fires. Cheap chargers or packs with no BMS could be a significant part of this. With the original hoverboard fires, the chargers were literally relying on consumers to time and disconnect to avoid overcharging. That means that both the onboard charger lacked a shutdown circuit AND there was not BMS to shut down charging. I don't think anyone is selling e-bikes like this. This is a city of 8.8 million people. So a rash of fires is NOT good, but risk of fire could look outsized because there are so many people adopting e-mobility so quickly. If one in ten households has some kind of e-bike, hoverboard, one-wheel, etc. or more for families, that would be 880,000 such vehicles in homes. Could it be that 1 in 10,000 are plugging 48V chargers into 36V bikes? Yes, very possible. And the BMs on the battery pack should stop this from creating a problem but that's what each manufacturer must test for.
I do wonder how much of the issue is NYC-specific vs. a high density of early adopters. Yes, cheap ebikes are a thing nationally--plenty of college students have joined r/ebikes recently looking for cheap ebikes--but there's nothing quite like the pressure of food delivery people in urban areas who might be running through four batteries a night. I could imagine they're really pushing the charging capacity in subpar conditions. I had a Bosch ebike for many years and the needed to switch to one with a throttle when my knee became worse and really hated that I needed to trade to a less safe system, but I've just been more mindful to charge to only ~90%, to do so close to when I'm going out so it's not stored close to full for long, to keep it at a proper temp, etc. I expect many newbie ebike wonder who didn't purchase from a shop received no education in taking care of their battery and the food delivery people are pushing their batteries in the absolute worst way with hundred of cycles a year in hot and cold conditions from 100% to close to 0%; that's probably not the case for most riders. In Europe, you don't seem to be seeing the same and I wonder if that's because the food bikers seem to be largely employees, not individual contractors, based on the couple videos I've seen about ghost delivery shops where they take branded bikes that are managed by the companies, who would be incentivized to take good care of the batteries. So, yes, I would be highly in favor of federal regulation to 1) require the cost of recycling/remanufacturing the battery be part of the initial cost and that the systems be in place within the next 2-3 years and 2) have actual safety features be part of all e-bike batteries sold here. However, I do wonder how much of the issue run of the mill consumers are likely to see if the treat the battery with a reasonable amount of care. I would definitely prefer our collective safety in apartments not depend on the "weakest link" for battery care, but I also expect that this is a rare issue made more common by a weird situation that happens to occur in NYC specifically. I'd happily pay more for peace of mind and better press though so it doesn't endanger the switch to e-bikes more widely though!
I there have been some fires related to Citibikes in the past. that being said Lyft was actually involved in the committee to create the UL standard for eBikes so I’m hopeful that even if their products or not you all right now, they might be moving in that direction.
I'm intrigued by the concept of charging my batteries outside. I don't know how the issues of extreme temperatures affect this strategy though. Any thoughts?
Excelent topic I have a e-bike powered by Bosch motor do since 2019. I handle it with care and lever ever leave my home when it is charging. And of course never ever leave it night charging... cause you will never know... I trusted in this european brand and i never thought that the batteries could be at the stake of safety, since it has a electric save circuitry and software on it. I hope that my 400 watts battery will never explode in my room, a warm place where i stored it in winter... because it could be a really threat to me. But... i will thought twice... and move it for another warm and dry place. I never heard about any safety issue with Bosch batteries, here in Europe.
Me too..I have a Pegasus E-8 e-bike (German) bought in 2014..with the Bosch Active line pedal assist motor..it tops out at 16 mph...still running the original Bosch battery. I follow all the rules from Bosch regarding battery care and charging. NO ISSUES at all. But we have to realize that these battery's can be dangerous if not properly maintained or stored. Owner education is huge...plus the rebuilding of these battery's should be illegal if not done by a qualified company.
Great video Chris and thank you for the information of this topic. This is a very serious issue but what strikes me is that most of the reasons that they are catching fire as they are doing in NYC are because of many factors such as over charging, cheap batteries as mentioned without BMS, Cheap scooters with bad wiring, etc. If they are truly concerned with this matter and the government wants to act on this, they should pay the companies to rebuild the batteries made from LifPo4 which are safer than the Lithium-Ion batteries and they would prevent alot of fires and hazzards. They immediately want to pass the grunt over to the consumer who already paid the money trusting that this is safe and if it is UL listed and they are still burning up, they should hold the agency accountable but you know how this is here, a finger pointing match and no one wants to take accountability. NYC has the most reports of electric bikes and scooter fires than anywhere else in the countries. Also, wanted to add that some riders or delivery riders with ebikes or scooters, charge their devices immediately and do not give at least an hour for the batteriess to cool down as that is another reason that they can ignite due to overloading or over heating. Just my 2 cents.
Come on America, do the right thing and put the pressure on ebike manufacturers through required standards and testing instead of the banning ebikes in general.
Excellent initial discussion on the battery safety issue, Chris. I would think that you’re in an excellent position to influence the e bike manufacturers from the retailer’s perspective by continuing the approach you have been using. Public education is an important piece of the puzzle and this discussion is a great start. As a consumer, I would be relieved if a UL standard were imposed on battery manufacturers. Like all other new industrial technologies, it will take some time for a standard to work itself through the market system. I’d love to hear more of these discussions from you and from others, if you are able to bring them into the discussion.
thanks for the support! This is definitely a challenge and conversation and I wonder sometimes how to navigate it. But it’s comforting to hear the support of comments after this video.
@@Propelbikes difficult, yes, but your approach is excellent because you make no assumptions and speak to many sides of the issue. And you’re transparent regarding your retailer position. I bought my first e bike on line from a Chinese company which had a 1000w battery system. I could find no proof of any testing rigor, so I sold it. I bought a Tern R-14 from you and have been extremely satisfied with its performance. Expensive, but I have peace of mind. BTW your customer service is excellent - Basheir was terrific.
I really appreciate your sharing or perspective and it’s so nice to hear that we’re delivering in the way we try to on the customer service front. I’m very fortunate to have people like Basheir on our team.
Hey, Chris, you're right; this is hard to talk about, especially as a New Yorker. I personally held my tongue on this topic until now, but you've been concerned about this kind of stuff and you said that this factored into why you only decided to carry bikes with Bosch systems in a previous video, and you foresaw this would become a problem in the industry. But these kinds of situations are the kind where saying "I told you so" doesn't feel all that good, you just wish someone listened. This is especially a difficult conversation to have in the United States because we pride ourselves on innovation, individualism, and personal freedoms, and so I imagine there will be some people that will say regulations of any kind infringe upon our rights and is NYC government overreaching again, etc, etc. There will be people with strong beliefs on how individuals should be free to assess their own risks and make decisions based on their individual assessments, and that government should not stick its nose where it doesn't belong, that the market will decide blah blah. But let's keep talking about it. Like you said, I hope this is a conversation starter between fellow enthusiasts as well as industry retailers/manufacturers. As an industry in its infancy, these conversations are part of the growing pains. Your idea about a conversation with Louis Rossmann would be a great opportunity. Also, like you said, we're not engineers, but I think you can talk to engineers and make things more digestible for the average person. Sorry for the long comment. Keep at it, Chris.
There was a house burned down in my small town in the UK only last week with the fire service naming an ebike battery as the cause, if nothing else this has the potential to put people off as the press are certainly not interested in fine detail and just search for dramatic headlines
I look at my battery every 30 min to see if it's charge but some don't that's part of the problem.solution make a annoying alarm that the charger can make or battery to alert who ever charging them its time to unplug it. Or a charger or battery automatically cut it off from over charging. Part of the problem fixed.
Thanks again Chris for helping to bring about awareness and move the market upward and in a better direction and raising awareness of lithium battery safety. I started looking into lithium battery technology and what could be done to improve e-bike battery safety, and I would say as it currently stands, is that the main challenge battery safety is NCM battery chemistry (Li-Ion), and its inherent susceptibility to catastrophic failure. While there are some safer and potentially more affordable and compact lithium chemistries on the horizon, such as solid-state lithium batteries, There still a number of years away LifePo4 ( lithium iron) technology it's of course much safer, less costly to manufacture and more environmentally friendly, it's slight disadvantage in energy density seems to keep manufacturers walked into designs based around lithium-ion battery cells. I agree that regulations of lithium ion are inevitable, but regulations require enforcement and can never be 100% effective. Alternatively, if a safer, less costly, longer life and more environmentally friendly option is available, I believe it will quickly displace most of the market for lithium iron powered eBikes. that technology is basically here today, and requires only a modest adjustment to battery and bicycle design. I've been experimenting with prototype lithium iron (LifeP04) eBike battery packs, and it's very feasible to build lithium iron battery packs using flat pouch cells that are of equal capacity to current ebike packs based on cylindrical 18650 based packs that are only about 25 to 30% larger and heavier. For an average E bike that ends up being a few lbs heavier and larger, or about 25% less range for the same size in weight as a lithium ion pack. Moving to higher voltage battery packs and motors can further offset the marginal increase in weight of a lithium iron based eBike. I've been running all summer, about (800miles) on a 60V lithium iron pack that is better in range and power to an actual 20ah 52 volt lithium-ion pack. it's about 20% larger than the lithium-ion pack in ways only 4lbs more, plus it's good for thousands of recharge cycles rather than a DIY lithium-ion battery pack that may be For only 100 to 200 charge cycles. The lithium iron battery packs I've been using cost about one half of lithium ion packs, plus I can charge the lithium iron pack 2 to 3 times faster than a lithium-ion pack, allowing me to add 10 to 15 miles in 20 to 30 minutes, rather than two or three hours as with a comparable lithium ion pack. I also preferred the constant voltage discharge curve of the lithium iron battery over lithium iron batteries that continually lose voltage as they discharge. My average commute I typically use a smaller frame mounted 60V, 620 watt-hour lithium-ion battery pack in about 25 miles, then if I need to go long distance have a second 620wah pack I can add to a rear cargo rack. the normal use I find I don't need the extra pack as I can charge the lithium iron pack very quickly. lithium iron battery technology can also be better accommodated with more of a moped/Cargo bike design that seems a better fit for most people looking for alternative transportation, and I'm surprised that cargo bike manufacturers haven't already adopted lithium iron battery technology. Thanks again and Stay Mobile!
Thanks for tackling this subject. Do you think batteries are better charged in situ on the bike or taken off? Love to see a simple comparison video, could be very helpful. I'm in UK, and have a bike with a bosch 625 powertube, which came with a 2 amp charger. I bought a 4amp to reduce charging time when we're away camping. Never had a problem, but I notice like many batteries it gets v warm. When I take it out of the bike to charge, we prop it up so it doesn't lie flat against a surface, and create hot spots. The weight of the battery seems to exacerbate heat transfer, especially on carpet. Does anyone make charging stands or hanging cages that allow air flow around the battery? We don't leave our bikes in full hot sun either, I heard from another camper that his bike caught fire without being on charge because he'd left them next to his motorhome all day in full +90° sun. No wonder, but easily done. I don't know what brand but it was reputable. Secure bike storage is a problem for ebikes everywhere, we currently keep them indoors but looking to build a little solid brick extension on the front of our house, to keep them in, maybe lined with fire resistant hemp blocks. Many houses used to have brick coal stores at the front, but that went out of fashion. Ironically the issue of fire safety may encourage council building regulation planners to give us permission to build it. Perhaps this will help others achieve safe secure storage too. Silver linings x
as a retailer at the moment, I trust Bosch to be the safest out there, but there are other companies that have safe batteries. But from my perspective, if they’re not independently tested, I don’t trust them I know too many this might be a pretty harsh stance, but I don’t really see any other path forward from here.
It’s definitely more than a few brands. Quite frankly, you’d be surprised to see that some of the even leading brands cut corners in this areas and many have issues that are not discussed publicly.
Thanks Chris! I respect your opinion on the industry and your knowledge, frankness and honesty is greatly appreciated. I no longer leave my batteries charging for extended periods. I now use a timer to cut off the charge cycle before they are fully charged and in a well ventilated place as a preventative measure.
My suggestion is to push for ALL batteries made in or sold to the US to be UL listed. BUT, also that all of those UL listed batteries be internally tagged with lithium-fire-proof, difficult-to-counterfeit, micro-tags (like in explosives), so any batteries that DO start fires can be identified. Customs inspector can open a random sampling of batteries to check for these tags and/or send those samples to UL for testing. Will this make batteries more expensive? Yes. Well it be worth it? You betcha! Maybe it will create an opening for safer battery designs to come to the market.
This is why I use LiFePo4 batteries, they don't have these issues. Sure they are a little bigger and heavier, but worth the piece of mind. This is one of the solutions.
I am from the U.K and bought a brand new e bike battery with charger in august this year, it was delivered at 2pm and put on charge, it finished charging at 5.55pm. I went over and unplugged it and it was so hot, before I had chance to think it started popping and then exploded, a sheet of flame shot out over 3 feet along with smoke.I was in a first floor flat and the hallway where the battery was exploding was blocking the front door. I managed to get in the front room but knew if I stayed there I would die, I went into the kitchen unfortunately breathing in toxic fumes, got onto the draining board in the kitchen and out through the kitchen window after dropping 12 feet onto concrete. To cut along story short, the flat was burnt out, I had soft tissue injuries along with a blood clot in my leg, pneumonia and the trauma I suffered means I will never have an electric bike ever again especially after seeing others exploding and the fatalities in e battery fires. Its a great shame as I have had an e bike for three years and its been fine, this was a brand new battery from a reputable supplier, I really dont know what the answer is except to educate consumers about the dangers and wherever possible charge outdoors and never at night.
I would look for a bike with a relatively wide tire. It probably makes sense to swap it out for a tire that has some tread on it or if you consistently have ice, perhaps even going for studded tires. I think most of the cargo bikes I outlined in my most recent video would work pretty well. It really just depends if you prefer a front loader or rear loader style.
Could it be that the high power thottle delivery bikes be the reason NYC is seeing a higher number of fires than other places that dont have that type of e-bike around. I am suspicious of the makers of those bikes and batteries.
@@Propelbikes A far fetched solution could be delivery bikes that aren't personally owned, but fleet like Citibike. Then the batteries and the bikes would be knowns. This also could control the inordinately high speeds I have seen while in NY. I live in Massachusetts and have not heard of any fires around here at all. I conjecture that is because we have no throttle cheap kilowatt motor delivery bikes.
I also think some sort of bike share program for the commercial business could be helpful. There’s a few companies that are trying to work on that it seems. The challenges it’s difficult to compete with the false economy of low quality products.
Can I get a list of brand names that have caught on fire? So far, this has been the issue that has kept me from buying my first e-bike. I live next to the Amish community and they haven’t had one issue
I wonder how many of these fires could have been prevented by the proper use and storage of lithium batteries. The other problem is that when the new safer batteries are produced, when will they be available to the private consumer?
Not sure where to start on this subject, do we all get rid of our cars, motor cycles, phones/tablet, my torch has rechargeable battery. batteries are used in numerous products that we have become dependant on. I’m writing this on mini iPad having just put my Samsung phone down after making contact with my cousin. Is it a particular type of battery that that has this problem. My Raleigh (2022 model) uses Bosch motor and battery. My cars use lead acid battery are they ok, I use lead acid leisure battery to power my trolling motor on my small inflatable boat. The lady speaking on the opening part of your video you see the guy sitting next her is busy using his mobile phone. Excuse my rambling.
Movcan has a UL certified battery commuter ebike with the BMS system for $900, $649 when on sale. I just got one and it seems of decent quality with lots of features. We should see if people have used those battery protective bags they have for sale now and their experiences with them. Amazon has some for around $20.
As a senior concerned with first and foremost personal responsibility and safety, what do you recommend for a EBIKE owner's protection (4-5yr) old bike inside apartment? Economically responsible? Tky 4 your time. D Parks
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Only an American would struggle so much to say that we need stronger standards. Yes it means safety and sure it will increase the price in the short term but it will allow competition and innovation in the right direction and should insure repairability.
yeah, this is definitely a fair point. It is weird how our society has come to except the chaotic ways that our markets operate. I guess I’m just trying not to alienate myself in too much as I present ideas which might be uncomfortable to the average American.
Haha what a pompous comment. Yes everyone else is so smart. So eager to place rules on everything and kill innovation and creativity.
Yes, at first I thought this was some comedy intro to a group Twitter D&I meeting. Lol.
Just spit it out, many batteries, especially lithium ion, are assembled without proper cell isolation, such that the bike falling over can cause the cells from adjacent brick to rub through the wrapper and create direct short.
I bought a $300 chinese ebike with a removable battery box. Inside the box is a lithium ion battery wrapped on blue and cushioned bottom, left, right and front. Inside the blue wrapping is a 13s5p 18650 cell holder that ensures these will never touch each other unless you get run over by a truck. Furthermore this battery slides in between the frame rails.
The battery has a 15a BMS and a 20a fuse on output and 5a fuse on charge port. Charger is 2a and controller is 13a.
My ebike has fallen over about 5 times so far.
Many DIY batteries from China are assembled carelessly, no cell holder, improperly arranged for proper tabbing, no foam padding, and they are normally designed to be mounted in an unprotected frame. One crash and the batteries can easily short and catch on fire.
OnLy An AmEriCan. Oh, please. It's because these are rare and isolated incidents. The reality is that there is a strong bias against ebikes because it challenges the gas industry and devalues oil and their related industries. So does solar power. You're naive if you cannot see this bias.
Probably because America was founded by people fleeing from overbearing European governments... 😂🇺🇸
As long as there are unregulated, untested, and uncertified e-bikes, conversion kits, and battery components for sale, this issue is just going to grow, and damage the larger e-bike industry.
If all the other electrical/electronic equipment in my home, from my toaster to my TV needs to be tested and certified safe, then it's time all e-bikes and their systems follow suit in order to be sold in the US.
I completely agree
Yes, sounds totally right. I would expect the legislator to move in this direction.
UL Listing does not guarantee safety. It sets a standard but one does not need UL certification to build a safe battery. If you want to solve this once and for all, subsidize A123 cells so that they are affordable and easily accessible. A123 are not your normal LiFeP04 cells, they have the power output to blow away nearly all of the more dangerous chemistries with the only downside being their lower energy density but it terms of personal electric vehicles I think there is enough space on any scooter/bike/whatever wheeled vehicle to build a battery with decent range that can take advantage of the fast charging A123 cells are capable of. Yes, I'm aware we already gave the company millions and it ended up being purchased by some Chinese group but now there is Lithium Werks who bought some of the assets/IP and manufacture the 18650 and 26650 M1B cells. Thanks to the nanophosphate technology you can abuse the shit out of those cells and it won't kill them or make them blow up. I don't want to see subsidizing Lithium Werks hurting other vendors so I'd just like to see a 48V 15Ah or 20Ah battery with a BMS that limits the output be offered for a reasonable price ($300/$400?) and easily available to everyone in the US via UPS or Fedex within a week. Currently you can get used 26650 M1B cells at $100 for 100 cells that test over 90% capacity at 1C/>98% at 0.2C. A battery that would last 10 years for your average commuter and 5 years for a delivery driver would make those cheap $200 Chinese batteries a terrible choice. Only the dumbest of troglodytes would think saving a little money now makes any sense.
If you institute a requirement for something as expensive as UL certification (simple electrical products: the process can cost several hundred thousand dollars) you'll see the battery builders just go to extremes to hide their batteries in shells of UL approved batteries and trust me, the shells will be readily available on Aliexpress and elsewhere.
99% of people I've met in the homemade battery scene go above and beyond when dealing with the more dangerous chemistries like NMC and NCA. Look at the designs on Endless Sphere, considering the budget differences between large companies and a battery builder the level of safety is impressive. More importantly, the users on Endless Sphere are often very much aware of what they are building and know that your average Joe should not be sold any of the homemade batteries we create simply because they lack the knowledge of dangers of certain chemistries to handle them appropriately. I would have loved to give my brother's hippie girlfriend a power bank built with the cells out of her disposable vapes but after a lot of testing and being unable to find official datasheets for the cells I realized I would be handing her something that I didn't even have full understanding of. I've rigged up some funny prototypes with 100W USB Power Delivery Boards and have charged MacBooks/ iPads, phones, powered 7,000 lumen LED lights, one wheel batteries, all kinds of shit.
Right to repair should absolutely apply to batteries. It's already fucked that the only major manufacturer of cells that doesn't go out of their way to stop us from getting cells is Molicel. God forbid this push for "safety" leads us to a world where lithium cells require a permit to purchase. This entire argument really is no different than the firearms argument. Do you want liberty or do you want an abusive mother that keeps you "safe" because time and time again the government has proven to be nothing more than a two faced abusive parent. Your safety is your responsibility. Worried about the place you live at going up in flames? Move somewhere that has banned what you fear. Private property owners have the right to decide what they want on their property. There's some deeper nuances to what landlords should be allowed to control but as long as there exists a market that is not a monopoly then let the consumer find what suits them best if they are a renter.
I think a video that talks about what makes a safe battery vs an unsafe one would be VERY useful at this point.
Agreed it would be nice to make those details clear and easily accessible. Also to differentiate between UL listed and UL certified.
He said he isn't an engineer, I think most people wouldn't get it. UL certification, or IPX waterproof ratings are things that people understand. I have seen some decent videos on here, but am still learning myself so I would hesitate to recommend one.
That's not the direction this channel wants to move into. Ideally there shouldn't be any DIY as it requires a high level of experitise not only in electrical engineering but also product design as bikes are moving through really harsh roads and weather conditions.
@@SonnyDarvish But as a consumer it would be nice to know what to look for and what to avoid. An educated consumer is what I am talking about rather than DIY.
@@Demystar lucky mine is UL tested. Heybike Mars passed the UL 2849 electric bicycle electric system safety standard test.
Cheap Chinese batteries are typically the problem. For instance, the cheap hoverboard knockoffs were catching fire so often that stores stopped selling them. Quality batteries with BMS shouldn’t experience fires. Cut corners and problems are guaranteed.
I totally agree. Although it wasn’t 100%, the cheap or hazardous products that caused stores to stop selling products. It seems as though it was government intervention.
Batteries are usually the most expensive part of an e-bike conversion. People will try to cheapen out and buy some shady poorly-made crap. Voltage and discharge are often not what is listed. Also, people might not be using compatible chargers. These scenarios are just asking for trouble.
I got a conversion kit from Grin Tech, just the battery alone was nearly $1,000. The batteries that you hear on the news catching fire or exploding were around the $300 range.
@@Yoshikarter1 tbf 1000$ for a battery is totally overpriced.
If we consider a 10s4p inr2170-50E battery then the bill of material would be:
40 cells = 3$*40 = 120$
BMS ~ 30$
Case ~ 20$
Wiring and miscellaneous ~ 10$
That's 180$ while being very generous on the prices, even with quality components. Now with some quality assembly in China the price of the pack could easily still be less than 300$.
@@castortoutnu The battery I got is a 52v 20aH. Not a small battery by any means.
@@castortoutnu that’s great. Now factor in shipping, marketing, and margins, manufacturer, wholesale, and retail. It will likely be closer to $500. Or more. And shipping Li batteries will also get harder. A UPS plane crashed a few years ago in the Middle East because of lithium battery fire. All hands lost. If this is a hypothetical vendor then they could hypothetically can get UL rating. If they can’t, then there is something wrong. Subtle but real. The fires are real as well.
There are certain factors which makes this more prevalent in NYC than other places
1. Delivery drivers. It seems that the bulk of ebike riders in NYC are Uber eats/other delivery drivers. Given their limited socio-economic background, they are not buying brand name ebikes but are in many cases buying off-brand/ conversion kit bikes from overseas. Let's just say there is limited QA on those products.
2. With regards to your point about newer buildings with bike storage and bike friendly features, a significant chunk of NYC housing stock is pretty old and those built in the last 20 years are skewed heavily in favor of high end luxury buildings which I assume many of those riding ebikes as Uber Eats drivers are not living in.
I have been listening to Propel's UA-cam videos for the past couple of months and I have been struck by how much I have learned. I have owned several ebikes in the last 15 years not thinking about battery safety and sustainability. I acted on this new information and purchased a Riese & Muller Nevo GT from Propel in Delaware two weeks ago. The battery, motor and electronics are all Bosch. Now I don't worry about fire, what do I do when the battery dies, electronic display goes blank and the motor seizes. The ebikes I have thrown away were due no support, believe me I tried to find a way to fix them. Rock on Propel!
As far as NYC goes, I think a lot of these apartment fires happen because of the stolen e-bike market. Bike theft is very prevalent in NYC, and so many people buy electric bikes from places like Offerup or Facebook market place, looking for a deal, but not fully realizing that what they're buying is stolen. A stolen bike will not come with a charger, but if the price is right, a lot of buyers will take a stab in the dark as to which charger goes to this fenced bike they just bought, and that's where I suspect a ton of these apartment fires are coming from.
I would recommend buying an electric bike brand new from a reputable seller every single time, but if anyone insists on buying used, hammer it into your head that anyone selling a bike without keys a *HUMUNGUS* red flag. There's an overwhelming number of Offerup posts of Arrow 8's, 9's and 10's with the disclaimer "NO KEYS". Why would someone not have the keys to a bike they're selling? The answer should be obvious. No keys = No charger. It isn't worth the price, no matter how good the deal may be on the surface.
I'm European and I have never heard of these batteries catching fire here. Maybe they are. But it has not been in the news, AFAIK. In the EU we have quite strict safety laws for electrical products though.
I have heard this often and mentioned it in the video. I think this is for a variety of reasons including the anti-dumping tariffs
@@Propelbikes Yes, could be. Thanks for the video.
@@nian60 i have not looked into this much but we have more 'normal' ebikes i guess mostly from brands who have been in the market for a long time. ebikes are not seen as a 'toy' where the first question is how fast can i make it go and how many watts does it have. The netherlands now has 3.8M ebikes and we are not flooded (no pun intended) with fires. i am sure the numbers are up but not inline with the number or ebikes sold.
Happens quite often in the Netherlands but with more than half a million e-bikes sold per year it makes sense I guess. I don't recall it ever lead to any serious injuries though. Only property damage.
@@eggy6857 well it happens for sure but its hard to find numbers 2020 and 2021 the number seems to be between 80 and 120 on a installed base of 3.8M ebikes. I doubt NY has 3.8M ebikes so we are talking about a totally different scale. Even then i think indeed many ebikes in nl are in special bike areas, semi-outside or people are more careful during charging. But a large part has to be simply better batteries and chargers.
For the DIY community EM3EV are the gold standard. They even silicone every seal that's how much attention to detail they have. Reminds me of the internet starting out very wild west lots of awesome progression but on the other side of the blade there's people making money quick at the exspense of others. Standardisation of battery tech needs to be implemented in major markets just simple things like cells not phyisically contacting, thermal run-off protection on the BMS, education on charging practeses. This goes for all transport" not just bikes" which is a good channel btw
It sounds like it. Louis Rossman also swears by them and we used them a few times in our early days when we were still doing conversions. I wonder if they could become UL listed? It would be a shame for them not to be able to continue.
I think there is an amazing opportunity for someone to make aftermarket batteries that meet UL standards to refurbish some of these products with problems. I think you are being an advocate for the industry and trying to get ahead of what really looks like a serious problem. Your commitment to quality products is setting the standard. You can pay up front for quality, or pay later with tragedy. You are once again, ahead of the game.
*Generalized comment*
Chris, your an amazing person to have as a leader in this industry and movement, especially in the US, where we need all the help we can get.
What you do, the way you present, the topics you discuss, and the products you've chosen to sell are all admirable and respectable.
I just want to say that I hope you find the inspiration and strength to keep all of this up long into the future. You're very gifted and seemingly a nature at what you do here.
The same can be said about you! I really appreciate all your support! Sometimes it’s not easy to stand on ground on your own. But this is definitely the necessary step if we want to improve.
@@Propelbikes How come you don't mention CE certification? Isn't that the European equivalent to UL?
As a builder, I am quite surprised that little has changed since the hoverboard crash. It seems that the first weak link in the chain has been the BMS. You can has the best cells on the market with a poorly designed BMS and poof, whereas even poorly matched cells of questionable origins can be safely managed with a decent BMS.
It is my understanding that people are leaving these ebikes or other devices plugged in past their required charge time. A BMS should be able to handle this. Though a proper BMS may not eliminate all of these fires, it certainly would mitigate the front page splash with so many runaways.
Personally , I build with only LFP batteries to avoid these persistent issues.
Great topic!
Thanks for your discussion on battery safety. You may be the only guy out there asking battery safety questions. After hearing your comments, I was in the garage in 2 minutes to check my bikes. I have TerraTrek EVO (2.5 years): battery is UL approved. I have a Ride1Up 700 (2 yrs): Battery has only EC mark. I have a Lectric XP 3.0 (2 months old): Battery has only EC mark.
I will query Ride1Up and Lectric to determine if their batteries now have UL rating. Thanks again.
William Simonson, Mount Pleasant, WI
I unfortunately have first hand experience of having a house fire started by a e-cargobike battery. This was from a reputable German company. Probably the best would be to acknowledge that Li batteries always carry this risk, you can only mitigate it to some degree: don't charge batteries unattended, possibly charge outdoors (though not possible when cold) or fireresistant location, take battery off the charger when full. There are also special boxes for battery charging, that may help to contain the possible damage.
holy shit! wow! thanks dude! I am so glad I purchased my first e-bike from you, my dude!
and my 2nd and 3rd!
@@thejesuschrist how many are you getting 12 plus 1?
This is why I purchased Velotric Discover! When I first saw the ad and it said UL listed batteries AND UL listed bike, as a whole, I jumped at it.
The first time I heard about e-bike batteries catching fire was from news reports I saw on UA-cam coming out of London. I saw the news reports a few months ago, but I don’t know when the actual fires were. At the time, I thought, “Oh no! They must not have good standards and consumer protection over there!” Thanks for your videos and all the great work you do!
We do have good standards and consumer protection is good. It's probably Chinese imports with people putting together DIY projects.
good video. I think low cost chargers do not shut off when the battery is fully charged, in fact the charger cannot detect full charge, depending on the end user to unplug when charging is done. Another problem is having too many chargers plugged into a single power strip / circuit, resulting in high current and overheating on old in-wall electrical wiring. My Specialized Vado 5 charger does auto-shut off at full charge, but the lower cost Bafang units do not.
this is a fair point. However, Specialized had battery issues as well on their Levo. And Bafang is actually now producing some certified products, so we should try to give them credit where it’s due. I’ve actually had many conversations with them on this topic and I appreciate that making some strides in this area.
Would be interesting if there is any technical analysis of these fires. A lot of the cheaper batteries use cheaper no-name cells, and BMS systems with no heat management installed.Also substandard wiring (aluminium coated iron straps instead of pure aluminium, or not thick enough to handle the load), welds and so on.
How much of this problem is inferior or mismatched chargers vs the batteries themselves?
Here in middle Georgia every winter there's fire cause by heater. But you don't hear the band of heaters. There's basically no education on how to properly operate a small electrical heater. We don't have snow every year and our winter season is not that long. Some people just don't have the common sense or sometimes housing unit are not that up to date when it comes to electrical system. I don't think they should put the blame on electric bikes without doing due process. I do like the idea of having a basement to store the ebikes and charging station. Maybe that would prevent fire in dwellings.
Excellent video. I had seen the reports about a LOT of eBike fires in NYC. From what I recall, it seemed a lot of them were from delivery service bikes and perhaps a question of 'any given charger is good enough when folks wanted to charge up quickly. There may or may not be something specifically different about chargers/batteries/ other components between brands? Certainly, there have been electric car fires and issues as well. It's a scary dilemma, I hope the issue(s) get understood and worked out quickly.
Thanks Pete! I think that is a fair assessment of one of the many aspects of this issue
How do you feel about ISO 4210 and UN 38.3 standards for safety? Looking the the Lectric e-bikes that doesn’t have UL but has these standards.
Neither of these include independent testing standards for a battery and as such I wouldn’t trust them as a replacement for something similar to a UL standard
Thanks for the video Chris. Are people charging their bikes unattended such that the batteries overheat? Many people charge devices overnight without issue however an e-bike battery is a different animal. I feel confident with my Riese & Müller and Bosch battery but still charge it while home and awake.
This is definitely fair. I think you are probably in the safest subset with the safest battery under the best conditions.
i wonder if the fact that most other countries limit the bikes to 250Watts, and 15-18 MPH. Which probably means they use less power and probably smaller batteries. The battery may burn, but since there would be less energy involved, they might not cause so much damage. I look at a lot of UA-cam videos, and many people are mainly concerned with power and speed.
This is certainly part of it from my perspective
Would agree, it's the cheap illegal bikes (illegal here certainly if they exceed 25km)..
Slow bikes aren't going to get food delivered.
It’s funny, but in China, where a lot of the bikes are made, they have used bikes for decades to deliver loads of goods. Without motors!
We need a proper American ebike Association. Safe bikes. Safe streets. Assessible communities.
Louis mentioned in his battery fire video how he was really happy with a certain battery pack company but he tried a different, lower cost one for a change and it resulted in the fire in that video. Hope you have a conversation with Louis on this topic.
It would be nice to have somebody with electrical knowledge describe what makes a good battery vs a bad battery, what could go wrong in them, how to take care of them, etc. Really interesting topic.
Chris great informative video. The portable power stations are going to LiFePO4 batteries instead of LiPO4. More recharges and less fire potential. At least that’s what they are saying. Have you heard about e-bikes changing to this newer battery. The Fe battery has lower energy density, heavier and bigger. But they say it’s nontoxic and more easily disposed of. Instead of “more power” the ebike and battery industry need “safer power”
one thing that is a clear trend , NEW bosch batteries are not catching fire anywhere. And yes we have this problem in Oregon mostly from cheap replacement batteries sold by alibaba.
As a retired insurance risk manager and investigator, I would want to see if there are one or more factors that link these fires. Is it one bike manf, or one battery/charger manf, age of battery, damage to battery or chargers preceding events, did they get wet, are the batteries listed, etc. Until someone thoroughly compares these (and many other factors), it is premature to say ebikes in general are dangerous and or fire hazards.
Such a relevant topic in todays world, batteries for almost everything we live with and use ( cars, phones, cameras - the list goes on), I am also concerned and glad you have taken the time and effort to start the realization and much needed conversation on the issue. I would like think that there is a data reference as to the type and manufacture of the hazardous batteries, not to point fingers but data is needed to help fill in the conversation on e.bike battery safety.
Thanks for this. Yep, UL or similar certification.
Other much more common hazards 1) cell phone batterys, I was curious about a old battery, it ignited in a unextinguishable hot hot fire, an eyeopener (yes outside away from other flammables) 2) Gasoline, my apartment allows automobiles with 20 gallons of gas or more to drive up the parking ramp, many floors to park within 20 feet of a sleeping quarters. 3) And whats to keep a ignoramus to carry a gallon of gas into a residential structure?
So yeah easily to get wrapped around the axle on this....on all safety issues. Hopefully , cooler (non-flammable) heads will prevail on this issue.
Great video. Thanks for keeping the conversation going on this.
Thanks for the support! It's a challenging topic but I think we need to confront it head on
thanks for bringing this up snd talking about it head on! i have a bike - it’s not electric tho. this is a difficult topic. it will affect the food delivery guys! they are barely scraping buy with these bikes as their livelihoods. not sure how this should progress.
A couple thoughts here:
First, thank you for your honesty and concern for people’s safety, even when this topic could potentially damage demand for the product you’re selling. I recently bought a used Bosch- powered ebike (we couldn’t afford a new one), and while this discussion has reaffirmed my decision to go with a certified system, it’s also convinced me to be more cautious about when / how I charge it. I have 2 little kids (I use the bike to pull them along in a bike trailer), and their safety is the most important thing to me.
2nd: Like many others in this thread, I’m not an engineer and don’t understand the technicalities of what makes some batteries safe and others dangerous, including the importance of using chargers designed for that particular battery system. Chris, I know you’re not an expert at battery chemistry, but if you could use your connections to facilitate a discussion with someone who is, that would be super helpful!
3rd: Additional regulation seems like a no-brainer here. As another commenter noted, the decision to mandate safety standards in cars (seatbelts, airbags, reverse cameras, etc) has made cars both safer and more desireable. Additionally, other regulations which were initially vehemently opposed by the auto industry have actually spurred innovation and made cars objectively better. Minimum fuel economy standards forced auto makers to innovate ways to build more efficient, powerful engines as well as design cars that slip through the air more efficiently.
even before i watch i can say, depends on which battery there is not enough consistency between brands and because a good battery that we demand become bigger and bigger each year cost are high brands will cut corners.
This is the point for sure! We need consistency and standards to prevent cutting corners.
@@Propelbikes yeah i am not happy that for my r&m a new bosch battery is 800+ euro's and we don't have to be that smart to figure out many of these say $1200 bikes total are not using $800-$900 batteries, controllers and chargers. but safety costs money in all parts of these bikes
from what I have seen, the Bosch batteries are the safest in the business. They really hold no punches there. Keep in mind they are battery experience comes from the power tool industry and those guys are really hard on those things.
Thanks so much for posting this thoughtful video. I have a Blix and reached out to them about the batteries on my Packa. They responded saying that their batteries are UL compliant, but not UL certified. This seems a little gray to me but it's somewhat comforting I suppose... I'll continue to charge only on my basement cement floor during the day when I'm home, not far from the smoke alarm. Has the NYC fire department provided any details about the batteries that have spontaneously combusted? Any commonality to the circumstances? Are they all grade C batteries from dubious sources? Are they being used in conjunction in the wrong battery chargers? Were the batteries damaged prior to charging? It would be enormously helpful to know more details about these fires which might enable landlords to ban problematic products without blanket restrictions on all electric assist bikes. Also, aren't all apartments required to have smoke alarms and fire extinguishers? I don't fully understand how these fires are happening.
Hello Chris...an important topic in NY but all I can say is you inspired me to buy Riese & Müller Nevo ebike...for sure this was not a cheap option but it was the right one! Thank you for posting these videos...we have nothing like this in the UK....keep it dude! 👌
You as a retailer , have to get to the media after each fire and press them to investigate whether the offending battery was actually tested or not, push the fact that it simply is not a problem in UK or Europe . We have had electric hire bikes and scooters for some years and I've never seen a fire reported.
I don’t think that that’s necessary as I can say with relative certainty that the batteries that are causing the fires are not tested. I guess it would be nice for that to be included in reports going forward. It be nice for the public to start differentiating products that are or are not tested.
@@Propelbikes If you you follow up every ebike fire report in your area youll soon be the go -to 'expert' that the media will come to for comment. That will do your business no harm and , as they say there's no such thing as bad publicity
This is a great idea! I appreciate the suggestion
Right to repair does not include repairing batteries, but rather having the ability to replace the battery. For example the Onewheel GT battery is serialized and tamper-proofed. Meaning that as soon as you unplug the battery, the entire system is now a boat anchor. Only the factory can resurrect it.
Thank you for all the time and effort you put in sharing valuable information. It helped me narrow my shopping down to only Bosch motorized eMTBs from Trek for my wife and I. I just wish I could have bought our ebikes from Propel, but your shops are too far from Quebec City, QC Canada.
We both love cycling with our eMTBs because they help us gradually get back in shape. And the confidence we have when charging their batteries is primarily because of the extra investment Bosch has been making in testing their system for charging safety as well (something we learned from your channel!).
I already know my next bike will be a Riese & Muller Superdelite Mountain, which I may try to buy from Propel then (especially if you open shops closer to where I live!)...
Bring on the regulations as soon as possible before we have a massive catastrophe. There has been plenty of warning. Social media and bike shops are probably the best way to get the word out . What is the next best action here to get this ball rolling in the right direction.
Awaiting my Reise Mueller ( from Propel) after wearing my non Bosch kit e bike out luckily no fires.
Thanks for this important conversation.
Connecticut safety obsessed physician.
From previous experience with hospital equipment, getting a UL certificate is some what complicated each unit type (make and model ) will require a separate review and with all the advancements in technology this will be an ongoing effort and may take up to year for each certificate. I doubt there will be single certificate that would cover ebike batteries as a whole.
I do not think eBikes will be killed by battery-fires. But it may cause problems. One thing you do not mention is measures owners can take to reduce the risks to them.
- outside under a roof, safe from flooding, against a brick wall is a lot safer than indoors, in between flammable elements that can spread toxic fumes and with risks of blocked ventilation. Think where you'll charge and include a small risk of fire in your assessment.
- Charge with the battery in a non-flammable environment. I once pointed out to a friend who placed his battery on top of a cardboard box with styrofoam in his garage that if there ever was a fire the fumes would be toxic and spread. Coolng requires ventilation, but one can still charge in a relatively enclosed place of metal and or stones that will prevent flames from spreading.
- do not mess with leads etc.. If a lead has to be replaced make sure it can carry the correct amps etc..
- water and electricity do not mix. This can include consensation (charging in kitchens or under shoddy roofs etc.), under tables with vases or drinks in glasses being consumed, outdoor floodings and leaks can risk fires.
Great feedback. I am actually planning a short video to recommend many similar steps
@@Propelbikes Good luck with that and thanks for your content.
My varla scooter caught fire while charging today and only had 500 miles on it took the fire department half an hour to put out the fire !!
Right to repair is essential.
Though, I would agree that with certain repaired product must be tested to confirm it's safe. And replacement parts themselves must be high quality and certified.
I plan to investigate the battery remanufacturing idea further
chargers / charging is most risky time - Smarter chargers good place to start - increase Standards for Chargers and BMS -
Decide on Standard Charger Plug to battery -
Lipo cells are most risky - wonder number of fires that Lipo involved ?
definitely good measures. But I believe we are beyond the point of just improving our personal habits and practices.
Just remember that lithium doesn't catch fire until it heats up to 350 F. Check on your battery as you charge it. It shouldn't even get too warm to touch. My Velotric bike battery, which is UL Listed, doesn't get hotter than 105 F, I can put my hand on it all day while it charges.
Perhaps another part of this discussion should involve the exploration of other battery chemistries than lithium ion. There are other chemistries being developed, primarily it seems for supply reasons, but could one of these other chemistries be safer in handling as well?
UL is in the USA, CE in Europe, I own a few items that are certified by one or the other. Maybe Europe is using CE to certify their batteries.
I bought a Bikonit e- bike and had my batteries recall do to chance of fire when charging, there are companies that self-check their products
Hello, I just watched your complete video! I wanted to share with you how I go about safely charging my e-bike battery. I live in a condo, I have the battery in a metal trash can out on the patio and the trash can is insulated with three layers of 1000 degree insulating wrap that is it's wrapped all the way around the battery on the inside of the can on the top and the bottom 4 layers at 1000 degree temperature rating with each layer .1000 x 4 = 4000 deg. Whereas typically e-bike battery Burns at 3300 degrees. And then I have a cam Buckle strap wrapped around the can through the handle on the top of the can that secures the lid in the event of the battery Catching Fire which would create not only fire but compression from the burning. Once again I said this is out on my patio not in the envelope of the building. The charger has a timer on it so that it will shut off even in the event that the BMS fails.I always charge when I'm present and awake. You are providing a great service!
Good on you, Chris, for shining a calm, steady light on this. IMO as an engineer, first priority should be to compile stats, like by the NYFD, of whose device(s) (battery, charger) failed, circumstances (temp, rh, etc), and any other relevant parameters. Then when we've identified the problem, we can discuss all the aspects of proposed solutions. Yes, national (or larger scope) is preferable. We need to get as much brain-power as possible engaged here, on a continuing basis, including informing the public about the importance of this work.
I tried posting this on the /r/ebikes subreddit and they downvoted the hell out of it, saying it's "still way safer than cars". I think there's a very large portion of the ebikes community that refuses to accept and acknowledge the problems with a lack of regulation. These fires are so preventable for the most part...
That form is full of diyers who think it's some threat to the craft of diy ebikes to mention how dangerous their shitty jerry rigged bikes are. They're willing to ignore the dangers because all they want at the end of the day is to say yeah I made my own ebike, or bought an ebike, I'm so badass, they don't want anyone to point out they didn't research enough when they made that decision or that their item can blow up easily, they get offended. Also the throttle-only ebike owners who want to be able to ride in the bike lanes with all the other non pedal bicycles which is laughable. I dont go to that form anymore.
Let's not forget the old classic "safety first!"
I am following the progress of available ebikes for years now. I'm in Europe and not seeing them lower end products in huge numbers, what I see in the US "ready to be shipped". Yes, we can also order them from Asian countries, but they take forever to arrive and pay extra taxes and warranty issues and so on.. What i hear tho is that apartment blocks banning electric cars to be charged in their underground carparks. Thanks for the video!
Thanks Peter. It does seem to be different in the EU for a number of reasons
Man this is depressing Chris. I'm not concened at all as I only own Treks, and Specialized ebikes. I take care of my bikes and batteries and use common sense when charging. I'll never give up my ebikes!
I live in a condo building that does not have adequate segregated bike parking. So , I keep my e-bike (a Trek Allant+ 7s) in the unit. Owing to recent reporting of battery fires, I no longer keep my bike on the charger - and charge it only when I plan to ride it soon after plugging it in. There are other e-bikes in the buildings ... and I do not know what protocols the of owners are following. This is a big safety issue that could deter/derail the e-bike phenomena. So, I hope the industry gets it figured out soon.
Thank you for talking about this issue. A broader reveal, analysis and, perhaps, dialog is needed. Needed more is a reliable solution to preventing battery fires.
This specific topic is what holds me back from buying an ebike. I'm looking at Aventon, assuming they'll be safer, but I'm still concerned. I live in high-rise, 11th floor to be exact. I worry about the battery catching fire and trapping my wife and myself.
You could buy an eBike battery tested to the NYC firecode which is UL 2849. To my understanding Aventon doesn't meet this standard.
@@Propelbikes Wow. I didn't know that about Aventon. Thanks. Is that info available on most companies website? I was also considering Ride 1 Up and Velotric.
A fireproof container to store & charge lithium batteries in would go far toward resolving this issue, at least for ebikes with removable batteries.
they're starting to have the same problems with air fryers with new brands coming into the market causing kitchen fires when not being used but left plugged in on standby
Tough topic and no right answers it feels like. @propel - The lower cost UL options, are they full UL 2849 or just battery and charger? I haven't seen any UL complete systems in the US currently available (I know panasonic is coming) other than bosch.
Chris, In the UK the national media are tripping over themselves to report any and all battery fires whether its an e-scooter, e-bike or EV, if there was a significant number of incidents you would have heard about it.
Currently only rental e-scooters are legal and along with e-bikes are limited to 250w motors, in the US I see 750w, 1500W e-bikes and e-scooters running at 60v, my Riese & Müller e-bikes are 36v and 250w, do you think that could be a factor along with poor quality chargers? iPhone fires when they occur are often due to cheap, poor quality third party chargers rather than defective batteries.
A 250w motor running at 36v draws just under 7 amps, a 1500w motor running at 60v draws 25 amps.
I note Bosch voluntarily test to a standard, I feel reasonably confident of their safety, nothing is 100%.
Should the make of e-bikes and chargers involved in the fires be named?
Well done for raising the issue and producing a very well thought out video.
I discussed this a little bit in the video. I suspect the UK is still impacted by the EU anti-dumping tariffs even since the split. I do believe this is a factor. Certainly some level oversight over the size and power of the ebikes escooters would have an impact as well. In New York it seems that the city is having trouble controlling what actually comes in.
The media are jumping all over it because they are doing anything to show that EVs are rubbish and fossil fuels (or now hydrogen fuels) are amazing and the future, probably because they are paid to by lobbyists or other fossil fuel groups.
The last fires I have seen first hand, a ice car went up in flames, and an old lady left her cooker on catching fire to the kitchen.
This is the elephant in the room and it needs to be discussed and regulated, imo. I have 2 ebikes, one for myself and one for my girlfriend, not going to mention the brands. But they are Chinese and met a price point that we could afford. One bike is ul listed on the battery and charger and one is not. I didnt know about the importance of this standard until recently, if I had known about it I wouldn't have purchased one of the bikes. All chargers and batteries need to be ul listed! Will it drive up the cost of some bikes? Probably. Will some brands go away because of it? Probably. But it needs to happen. I have a detached garage that I store our bikes in and charge them in, but I still set the chargers on the concrete when charging. It's one thing to have your garage burn down, but another to have your house burn down. At the minimum I think all batteries and chargers should have the ul listing as a requirement.
I think that a contributing factor is that the American market expects higher power from their bikes than the Europeans, where power is restricted to 250W, and speed is restricted to 15mph. High power systems inevitably leads to higher currents in the batteries and control systems, whether they are designed for it or not.
In the region where I live, we haven't heard or read about this problem in months, so we naturally begin to think the problem must have been solved, which it apparently hasn't. I would like to think higher-quality bikes from Europe and the U.S. are less-inclined to suffer "thermal runaway," but there exist so many ultra-cheap Chinese bikes everywhere, including the one owned by my apartment neighbor - directly below me.
Europe has two things that do this one. Europe definitely has a higher base standard. They also have a higher level of accountability if something is to go wrong. I don’t see this on the same level in the US.
scary
I went out of my way to buy my R-14 from you because of your interest in safety and promotion of quality products. I now have over 1,000 urban miles on my bike. Battery performance has been excellent. Never an issue with charging not going to spec. The Bosch system is just as advertised - excellent. Testing and manufacturing standards need to imposed. A follow up video on legislation and industry improvements might be timely.
Put a timer on the adapter
NYC should be investigating the make/model of equipment that caused fires.
Cheap chargers or packs with no BMS could be a significant part of this. With the original hoverboard fires, the chargers were literally relying on consumers to time and disconnect to avoid overcharging. That means that both the onboard charger lacked a shutdown circuit AND there was not BMS to shut down charging. I don't think anyone is selling e-bikes like this.
This is a city of 8.8 million people. So a rash of fires is NOT good, but risk of fire could look outsized because there are so many people adopting e-mobility so quickly. If one in ten households has some kind of e-bike, hoverboard, one-wheel, etc. or more for families, that would be 880,000 such vehicles in homes. Could it be that 1 in 10,000 are plugging 48V chargers into 36V bikes? Yes, very possible. And the BMs on the battery pack should stop this from creating a problem but that's what each manufacturer must test for.
Dorms. The potential knock on effect of e-bike bans in NYC residential property is that university dormitories will also ban ebikes.
I tend to agree with the need for enforceable standards.
UL requirements are probably needed to ensure the future of electric vehicles.
I do wonder how much of the issue is NYC-specific vs. a high density of early adopters. Yes, cheap ebikes are a thing nationally--plenty of college students have joined r/ebikes recently looking for cheap ebikes--but there's nothing quite like the pressure of food delivery people in urban areas who might be running through four batteries a night. I could imagine they're really pushing the charging capacity in subpar conditions. I had a Bosch ebike for many years and the needed to switch to one with a throttle when my knee became worse and really hated that I needed to trade to a less safe system, but I've just been more mindful to charge to only ~90%, to do so close to when I'm going out so it's not stored close to full for long, to keep it at a proper temp, etc. I expect many newbie ebike wonder who didn't purchase from a shop received no education in taking care of their battery and the food delivery people are pushing their batteries in the absolute worst way with hundred of cycles a year in hot and cold conditions from 100% to close to 0%; that's probably not the case for most riders. In Europe, you don't seem to be seeing the same and I wonder if that's because the food bikers seem to be largely employees, not individual contractors, based on the couple videos I've seen about ghost delivery shops where they take branded bikes that are managed by the companies, who would be incentivized to take good care of the batteries.
So, yes, I would be highly in favor of federal regulation to 1) require the cost of recycling/remanufacturing the battery be part of the initial cost and that the systems be in place within the next 2-3 years and 2) have actual safety features be part of all e-bike batteries sold here. However, I do wonder how much of the issue run of the mill consumers are likely to see if the treat the battery with a reasonable amount of care. I would definitely prefer our collective safety in apartments not depend on the "weakest link" for battery care, but I also expect that this is a rare issue made more common by a weird situation that happens to occur in NYC specifically. I'd happily pay more for peace of mind and better press though so it doesn't endanger the switch to e-bikes more widely though!
A lot of questions to this issue. Just curious if Citi E bikes are ever mentioned or an issue?
I there have been some fires related to Citibikes in the past. that being said Lyft was actually involved in the committee to create the UL standard for eBikes so I’m hopeful that even if their products or not you all right now, they might be moving in that direction.
I'm intrigued by the concept of charging my batteries outside. I don't know how the issues of extreme temperatures affect this strategy though. Any thoughts?
Excelent topic
I have a e-bike powered by Bosch motor do since 2019. I handle it with care and lever ever leave my home when it is charging. And of course never ever leave it night charging... cause you will never know...
I trusted in this european brand
and i never thought that the batteries could be at the stake of safety, since it has a electric save circuitry and software on it.
I hope that my 400 watts battery will never explode in my room, a warm place where i stored it in winter... because it could be a really threat to me. But... i will thought twice... and move it for another warm and dry place.
I never heard about any safety issue with Bosch batteries, here in Europe.
Me too..I have a Pegasus E-8 e-bike (German) bought in 2014..with the Bosch Active line pedal assist motor..it tops out at 16 mph...still running the original Bosch battery. I follow all the rules from Bosch regarding battery care and charging. NO ISSUES at all. But we have to realize that these battery's can be dangerous if not properly maintained or stored. Owner education is huge...plus the rebuilding of these battery's should be illegal if not done by a qualified company.
Great video Chris and thank you for the information of this topic. This is a very serious issue but what strikes me is that most of the reasons that they are catching fire as they are doing in NYC are because of many factors such as over charging, cheap batteries as mentioned without BMS, Cheap scooters with bad wiring, etc. If they are truly concerned with this matter and the government wants to act on this, they should pay the companies to rebuild the batteries made from LifPo4 which are safer than the Lithium-Ion batteries and they would prevent alot of fires and hazzards. They immediately want to pass the grunt over to the consumer who already paid the money trusting that this is safe and if it is UL listed and they are still burning up, they should hold the agency accountable but you know how this is here, a finger pointing match and no one wants to take accountability. NYC has the most reports of electric bikes and scooter fires than anywhere else in the countries. Also, wanted to add that some riders or delivery riders with ebikes or scooters, charge their devices immediately and do not give at least an hour for the batteriess to cool down as that is another reason that they can ignite due to overloading or over heating. Just my 2 cents.
Come on America, do the right thing and put the pressure on ebike manufacturers through required standards and testing instead of the banning ebikes in general.
Excellent initial discussion on the battery safety issue, Chris. I would think that you’re in an excellent position to influence the e bike manufacturers from the retailer’s perspective by continuing the approach you have been using. Public education is an important piece of the puzzle and this discussion is a great start. As a consumer, I would be relieved if a UL standard were imposed on battery manufacturers. Like all other new industrial technologies, it will take some time for a standard to work itself through the market system. I’d love to hear more of these discussions from you and from others, if you are able to bring them into the discussion.
thanks for the support! This is definitely a challenge and conversation and I wonder sometimes how to navigate it. But it’s comforting to hear the support of comments after this video.
@@Propelbikes difficult, yes, but your approach is excellent because you make no assumptions and speak to many sides of the issue. And you’re transparent regarding your retailer position.
I bought my first e bike on line from a Chinese company which had a 1000w battery system. I could find no proof of any testing rigor, so I sold it. I bought a Tern R-14 from you and have been extremely satisfied with its performance. Expensive, but I have peace of mind. BTW your customer service is excellent - Basheir was terrific.
I really appreciate your sharing or perspective and it’s so nice to hear that we’re delivering in the way we try to on the customer service front. I’m very fortunate to have people like Basheir on our team.
Well done, this topic is not going away and needs addressing now!
Thanks Tony! I agree. I'm hopeful that this video will be helpful in that effort
Hey, Chris, you're right; this is hard to talk about, especially as a New Yorker. I personally held my tongue on this topic until now, but you've been concerned about this kind of stuff and you said that this factored into why you only decided to carry bikes with Bosch systems in a previous video, and you foresaw this would become a problem in the industry. But these kinds of situations are the kind where saying "I told you so" doesn't feel all that good, you just wish someone listened.
This is especially a difficult conversation to have in the United States because we pride ourselves on innovation, individualism, and personal freedoms, and so I imagine there will be some people that will say regulations of any kind infringe upon our rights and is NYC government overreaching again, etc, etc. There will be people with strong beliefs on how individuals should be free to assess their own risks and make decisions based on their individual assessments, and that government should not stick its nose where it doesn't belong, that the market will decide blah blah.
But let's keep talking about it. Like you said, I hope this is a conversation starter between fellow enthusiasts as well as industry retailers/manufacturers. As an industry in its infancy, these conversations are part of the growing pains. Your idea about a conversation with Louis Rossmann would be a great opportunity. Also, like you said, we're not engineers, but I think you can talk to engineers and make things more digestible for the average person.
Sorry for the long comment. Keep at it, Chris.
There was a house burned down in my small town in the UK only last week with the fire service naming an ebike battery as the cause, if nothing else this has the potential to put people off as the press are certainly not interested in fine detail and just search for dramatic headlines
Yes, but it clearly stated it was a DIY eBike. Someone messing around and clearly not knowing what they were doing.
I look at my battery every 30 min to see if it's charge but some don't that's part of the problem.solution make a annoying alarm that the charger can make or battery to alert who ever charging them its time to unplug it. Or a charger or battery automatically cut it off from over charging. Part of the problem fixed.
Thanks again Chris for helping to bring about awareness and move the market upward and in a better direction and raising awareness of lithium battery safety. I started looking into lithium battery technology and what could be done to improve e-bike battery safety, and I would say as it currently stands, is that the main challenge battery safety is NCM battery chemistry (Li-Ion), and its inherent susceptibility to catastrophic failure. While there are some safer and potentially more affordable and compact lithium chemistries on the horizon, such as solid-state lithium batteries, There still a number of years away LifePo4 ( lithium iron) technology it's of course much safer, less costly to manufacture and more environmentally friendly, it's slight disadvantage in energy density seems to keep manufacturers walked into designs based around lithium-ion battery cells.
I agree that regulations of lithium ion are inevitable, but regulations require enforcement and can never be 100% effective. Alternatively, if a safer, less costly, longer life and more environmentally friendly option is available, I believe it will quickly displace most of the market for lithium iron powered eBikes. that technology is basically here today, and requires only a modest adjustment to battery and bicycle design.
I've been experimenting with prototype lithium iron (LifeP04) eBike battery packs, and it's very feasible to build lithium iron battery packs using flat pouch cells that are of equal capacity to current ebike packs based on cylindrical 18650 based packs that are only about 25 to 30% larger and heavier. For an average E bike that ends up being a few lbs heavier and larger, or about 25% less range for the same size in weight as a lithium ion pack. Moving to higher voltage battery packs and motors can further offset the marginal increase in weight of a lithium iron based eBike.
I've been running all summer, about (800miles) on a 60V lithium iron pack that is better in range and power to an actual 20ah 52 volt lithium-ion pack. it's about 20% larger than the lithium-ion pack in ways only 4lbs more, plus it's good for thousands of recharge cycles rather than a DIY lithium-ion battery pack that may be For only 100 to 200 charge cycles.
The lithium iron battery packs I've been using cost about one half of lithium ion packs, plus I can charge the lithium iron pack 2 to 3 times faster than a lithium-ion pack, allowing me to add 10 to 15 miles in 20 to 30 minutes, rather than two or three hours as with a comparable lithium ion pack. I also preferred the constant voltage discharge curve of the lithium iron battery over lithium iron batteries that continually lose voltage as they discharge. My average commute I typically use a smaller frame mounted 60V, 620 watt-hour lithium-ion battery pack in about 25 miles, then if I need to go long distance have a second 620wah pack I can add to a rear cargo rack. the normal use I find I don't need the extra pack as I can charge the lithium iron pack very quickly.
lithium iron battery technology can also be better accommodated with more of a moped/Cargo bike design that seems a better fit for most people looking for alternative transportation, and I'm surprised that cargo bike manufacturers haven't already adopted lithium iron battery technology.
Thanks again and Stay Mobile!
Thanks for the info.
Thanks for tackling this subject. Do you think batteries are better charged in situ on the bike or taken off? Love to see a simple comparison video, could be very helpful. I'm in UK, and have a bike with a bosch 625 powertube, which came with a 2 amp charger. I bought a 4amp to reduce charging time when we're away camping. Never had a problem, but I notice like many batteries it gets v warm. When I take it out of the bike to charge, we prop it up so it doesn't lie flat against a surface, and create hot spots. The weight of the battery seems to exacerbate heat transfer, especially on carpet. Does anyone make charging stands or hanging cages that allow air flow around the battery? We don't leave our bikes in full hot sun either, I heard from another camper that his bike caught fire without being on charge because he'd left them next to his motorhome all day in full +90° sun. No wonder, but easily done. I don't know what brand but it was reputable. Secure bike storage is a problem for ebikes everywhere, we currently keep them indoors but looking to build a little solid brick extension on the front of our house, to keep them in, maybe lined with fire resistant hemp blocks. Many houses used to have brick coal stores at the front, but that went out of fashion. Ironically the issue of fire safety may encourage council building regulation planners to give us permission to build it. Perhaps this will help others achieve safe secure storage too. Silver linings x
How do you identify an unsafe battery? What are the safe brand names? Thank you.
as a retailer at the moment, I trust Bosch to be the safest out there, but there are other companies that have safe batteries. But from my perspective, if they’re not independently tested, I don’t trust them I know too many this might be a pretty harsh stance, but I don’t really see any other path forward from here.
@@Propelbikes How do I know if the battery I have is safe? I have a Juiced bike. Haven't read anything about their batteries catching fire.
Does anyone know which brands are causing the problem?
It’s definitely more than a few brands. Quite frankly, you’d be surprised to see that some of the even leading brands cut corners in this areas and many have issues that are not discussed publicly.
@@Propelbikes Maybe the solution is to discuss them PUBLICLY?
I would love to if I wasn't concerned about a defamation case. Maybe a lawyer could help me navigate that
@@Propelbikes can you exclude Bosch from these battery fires?
Thanks Chris! I respect your opinion on the industry and your knowledge, frankness and honesty is greatly appreciated. I no longer leave my batteries charging for extended periods. I now use a timer to cut off the charge cycle before they are fully charged and in a well ventilated place as a preventative measure.
My suggestion is to push for ALL batteries made in or sold to the US to be UL listed. BUT, also that all of those UL listed batteries be internally tagged with lithium-fire-proof, difficult-to-counterfeit, micro-tags (like in explosives), so any batteries that DO start fires can be identified. Customs inspector can open a random sampling of batteries to check for these tags and/or send those samples to UL for testing.
Will this make batteries more expensive? Yes. Well it be worth it? You betcha!
Maybe it will create an opening for safer battery designs to come to the market.
I would like to have a box or cover to put the battery in while charging.
So Chris, it's been a year since you put this video out. Where are we on this?
This is why I use LiFePo4 batteries, they don't have these issues. Sure they are a little bigger and heavier, but worth the piece of mind. This is one of the solutions.
I am from the U.K and bought a brand new e bike battery with charger in august this year, it was delivered at 2pm and put on charge, it finished charging at 5.55pm. I went over and unplugged it and it was so hot, before I had chance to think it started popping and then exploded, a sheet of flame shot out over 3 feet along with smoke.I was in a first floor flat and the hallway where the battery was exploding was blocking the front door.
I managed to get in the front room but knew if I stayed there I would die, I went into the kitchen unfortunately breathing in toxic fumes, got onto the draining board in the kitchen and out through the kitchen window after dropping 12 feet onto concrete.
To cut along story short, the flat was burnt out, I had soft tissue injuries along with a blood clot in my leg, pneumonia and the trauma I suffered means I will never have an electric bike ever again especially after seeing others exploding and the fatalities in e battery fires.
Its a great shame as I have had an e bike for three years and its been fine, this was a brand new battery from a reputable supplier, I really dont know what the answer is except to educate consumers about the dangers and wherever possible charge outdoors and never at night.
I bought a CAOMM 42 volt 750 battery can’t see through the blue plastic do you know about this it say battery is a art
Thank you for addressing this most important issue/problem.
How many fires are cause by normal home appliances?
Question: What is the best electric cargo e-bike for use in 0 degree C weather? 🇨🇦
I would look for a bike with a relatively wide tire. It probably makes sense to swap it out for a tire that has some tread on it or if you consistently have ice, perhaps even going for studded tires. I think most of the cargo bikes I outlined in my most recent video would work pretty well. It really just depends if you prefer a front loader or rear loader style.
Could it be that the high power thottle delivery bikes be the reason NYC is seeing a higher number of fires than other places that dont have that type of e-bike around. I am suspicious of the makers of those bikes and batteries.
It definitely seems to be more common with some models. A targeted recall could be part of the solution as seen with Ancheer recently
@@Propelbikes A far fetched solution could be delivery bikes that aren't personally owned, but fleet like Citibike. Then the batteries and the bikes would be knowns. This also could control the inordinately high speeds I have seen while in NY. I live in Massachusetts and have not heard of any fires around here at all. I conjecture that is because we have no throttle cheap kilowatt motor delivery bikes.
I also think some sort of bike share program for the commercial business could be helpful. There’s a few companies that are trying to work on that it seems. The challenges it’s difficult to compete with the false economy of low quality products.
Can I get a list of brand names that have caught on fire? So far, this has been the issue that has kept me from buying my first e-bike. I live next to the Amish community and they haven’t had one issue
I wonder how many of these fires could have been prevented by the proper use and storage of lithium batteries. The other problem is that when the new safer batteries are produced, when will they be available to the private consumer?
One of the major reasons I bought an Addmotor etrike is the UL certified battery. And made sure the smoke detector in the garage is working.
Not sure where to start on this subject, do we all get rid of our cars, motor cycles, phones/tablet, my torch has rechargeable battery. batteries are used in numerous products that we have become dependant on. I’m writing this on mini iPad having just put my Samsung phone down after making contact with my cousin. Is it a particular type of battery that that has this problem. My Raleigh (2022 model) uses Bosch motor and battery. My cars use lead acid battery are they ok, I use lead acid leisure battery to power my trolling motor on my small inflatable boat. The lady speaking on the opening part of your video you see the guy sitting next her is busy using his mobile phone. Excuse my rambling.
Movcan has a UL certified battery commuter ebike with the BMS system for $900, $649 when on sale. I just got one and it seems of decent quality with lots of features. We should see if people have used those battery protective bags they have for sale now and their experiences with them. Amazon has some for around $20.
As a senior concerned with first and foremost personal responsibility and safety, what do you recommend for a EBIKE owner's protection (4-5yr) old bike inside apartment? Economically responsible? Tky 4 your time. D Parks