I have to go with the one about the drinks and the taxation. I think the original purpose of most such rhyme was to get away with social criticism, which was very tricky with kings. And the level of outrage would have been HUGE and enduring.
Yes, I saw a Scottish metal detectorist's video a while back. he was detecting around the sight of the a gallows and found an alcohol measure cup (with customs and excise marks/crown etc). He said it might have been a hanged perons last drink maybe. He said the rhyme was about the changes in these measuring standards, and that Scotland still used a larger measure today. From Google - In Great Britain, the standard single measure of spirits in a pub was 1⁄6 gill (23.7 mL) in England, and 1⁄5 gill (28.4 mL) in Scotland, while the 1⁄4 gill (35.5 mL) was also a common measure in Scotland, and still remains as the standard measure in pubs in Ireland.
A gill is still 1/4 pint (5 fluid ounces). If Charles I did reduce it then it must have been reinstated at some point afterwards. 4:27 “Half of a gill is a jack, or an eighth of a pint.[3] But in northern England, a quarter pint could also be called a jack or a noggin, rather than a gill, and in some areas a half pint could be called a gill, particularly for beer and milk.” from Wikipedia (reference 3 is from a 1977 book)
Gave a like to both comments here . I don't ever mean any disrespect , however ~ the voice in these videos COULD be Ai generated . I agree ( that ) it's a perfect voice for this type of channel . Nobody could even be sure IF the voice is from a real person unless there's a face reveal along with the voice speaking in real time. Love the channel and the voice even without a face from it shown. ♑✍️🇧🇻🇦🇺
I honestly had never thought about the origins of nursery rhymes before. I remember watching a show called “The Truth about Mother Goose” when I was around 10. I became really curious and then I discovered that so many of them revolved around death (Ring around the rosies, London Bridges, …) I was never taught a 2nd verse to Jack & Jill (USA vs Europe/England? ), so I thought it meant both of them died.
At the time of Marie Antoinette cake was the name for the ends of bread, not merely the sugary confections we think of. And the quote predates her being queen.
I remember writing about this rhyme many years ago. It was just my own theory that this was a reference to Christianity overtaking paganism. "Jack and Gill" were common names and back then, many children were unbaptised, therefore "pagans". It was always the line "went UP the hill to fetch a pail of water" that puzzled me; wells, as you point out, were usually in valleys, as water ran down from the hills. But what if there was a natural spring or waterfall that commoners believed had healing powers and was associated with a genus locii, or local goddess/spirit? What if the church learned that these pagan practises were still taking place and set about punishing those who went to the spring or waterfall, hence "Jack's injury, followed by "Jill's" and the loss of their pail of water? Having no healing water to bring back, for whatever purpose he had been sent to fetch the water in the first place and having now suffered injury, he was forced instead to use the old remedy of vinegar and brown paper. It's just my own theory, but I thought that I would share it. Hope that you don't mind.
Thank you for sharing your insights! 🖤 I like your interpretation; I've always felt there was some connection to the stories of the fountain of youth in this rhyme, but that's just my gut feeling and I've no evidence to back it up. I like your idea about baptism too: I'd never thought of that angle! Thank you for giving me some further food for thought :)
I put my kids to sleep singing nursery rhymes. By the time they were 3 years old they could sing most of them, even singing the alphabet. Could not write but it was fun in the kindergarten and easy.
That's wonderful to hear! 😊 I'm thrilled that you and your granddaughter enjoy the videos. Thank you so much for your kind words and continued support 🖤
Very interesting videos. I remember reading Mother Goose as a child. Brother's Grimm were rather macabre tales too. Intriguing, the different stories behind them.
Currently reading the land of stories seþ by Chris Colfer new twists on the fairytale s. Fairytale were often referring to rape and violence if you look at origins perhaps they can be included here?
I very much like what you are doing here, and wish Good Luck to be upon you. Burke and Hare and their ilk hidden in the channel name is amusing too. Unearthing the Old tales and digging out hidden meanings like a Knox is just too fun.
I always heard Georgie Porgie was about George Villiers, Duke of Buckingham. The Villiers were a powerful in the courts of both Charles I and II. But I don’t think there’s actual evidence for it.
@@TheTrumpReaper a cock-horse was a very spirited horse, good natured but with outgoing personality & energy, one that didn't tire fast & that looked good. It came to mean a toy rocking horse or hobby horse over time. It could also be applied to a "cocky" young man, confident, pleasant, quick to smile, but kind of strutting, one who knew he was attractive but not necessarily the type who abuse that as far as I've ever heard. I was of course not around when that usage was so I can't be certain, but this came up in an English class with a teacher who was bright & well read. I've heard it used as spirited & for a rocking horse by elderly relatives, in my youth. We would squirm & insist they use other wording. 😂 I remember being embarrassed by that, & so, hearing it was once usual, in class, and that it referred to a strutting rooster stereotype made it make sense to me. Cock & Bull is a tavern name in multiple places & the sign outside tends to be a rooster with his chest puffed up, looking, well, cocky.
I have been watching your videos the last week and have watched quite a few. This one was BY FAR the creepiest. The beginning of the childs voice saying the rhyme sent chills up my spine 😮 absolutely brilliant! I am enjoying learning the origins of so many fairy tales & rhymes! Thank you so much! I echo everyone that says your voice is perfect for these stories, you keep a perfect timing & cadence as you speak, along with your magnificent accent. I always wanted to visit Europe and now I want to even more!❤️Keep up the amazing work!
Excellent series of possible nursery rhyme origins. Absolutely love the historical, period images used for illustration. Thank you, so enjoyably immersive.
I always love nursery rhymes ,and as a child you took the ryhmes as it was, but thanks for going deeper into the meanings. I love your channel, now i can get a better understanding
Wormwood and calendula soaked In Vinegar, used as a poultice was used frequently for muscle strains, headaches, and bruises. The brown paper contracted slightly as it dried.🖤🇨🇦
Well well well well ( sorry I couldn’t help myself ) another fine mystery you’ve handed me, you Mistress of dark tales. So intriguing this one oooo. You ARE SO gorgeous at twisted tales. I seem to remember a tv series, mm. My dearly departed grandmother spoke often about medicinal use of Vinegar. Well, ( there I go again) thanks for another tantalising journey into the past dark days of the macabre and sinister perhaps. I hope you don’t mind, I have a few that may or may not prove useful for our foray. SeeSaw Marjorie Daw, Sing A Song Of Sixpence, Oh Dear, What Can The Matter Be ( I’d be extremely surprised if the later is nothing more than just a little playful ditty). Thank you so very much for indulging me. I love your videos and all of the production work and research time that you dedicate to each one. Well done. Great job. Excellent artwork. Voice is superb by the way. Love it . Cheers Colin
Thank you so much for your thoughtful suggestions! I had actually forgotten all about "oh dear, what can the matter be" - I'm intrigued to research that one! I appreciate your input and fantastic ideas. I'm thrilled to hear that you enjoy my videos and the effort I put into research and production. Your kind words truly mean a lot 🖤☺️
I love your nursery rhymes I was thinking about might be orgins and meanings behind "Ding dong dell the pussys in the well" .....Pete from Tasmania, here in Australia....😂
Well according to Aleister Crowley (who was almost certainly not being serious): Taffy was a Welshman, / Taffy was a thief; / Taffy came to my house / And stole a leg of beef. / I went to Taffy’s house; / Taffy was in bed. / I took a carving knife, / And cut of Taffy’s head. Taffy is merely short for Taphtatharath, the Spirit of Mercury and the God of Welshmen or thieves. ‘My house’ is of course equivalent to ‘my magick circle.’ Note that Beth, the letter of Mercury and ‘The Magus,’ means ‘a house’, The beef is a symbol of the Bull, Apis the Redeemer. This is therefore that which is written: ‘Oh my God, disguise thy glory! come as a thief, and let us steal away the sacraments!’ In the following verse we find that Taffy is ‘in bed,’ owing to the operation of the sacrament. The great task of the Alchemist has been accomplished; the mercury is fixed. One can then take the Holy Dagger, and separate the Caput Mortuum from the Elixir. Some Alchemists believe that the beef presents that dense physical substance which is imbibed by Mercury for his fixation; but here as always we should prefer the more spiritual interpretation.”
Rubbish. Albeit well thought out rubbish. I always heard the last part of the Rhyme was "I went to Taffy's house, Taffy was in bed. I took the leg of beef and hit him on the head." There are other variations, none of which involve decapitation. They do, however, have a retaliatory theme. The Welsh were a constant thorn in the side of the British for many years, much like the Lowland Scots. My money is on a hidden political meaning.
@mandywescott707 "Taffy was a Welshman/Taffy was a thief/Taffy came to my house/and stole a leg of beef/I went to Taffy's house/Taffy was in bed/I took the leg of beef/And hit him on the head. This was always my favorite nursery Rhyme because it is laugh out loud, cartoon violence funny.
@@finncullenHe altered the nursery rhyme to make it much darker and more sinister. In the original, the victim of bovine larceny burglarizes Taffy's residence and hits Taffy in the head with said comestible. He doesn't behead him.
I think the call to the poor in life to not try to rise above their station is plausible. It fits with early and even contemporary church teaching. The inclusion of the downfall of royalty would fit also as a more direct reference would have aroused Royal ire. By the way young men and women working on outback Australian farming or grazing stations (farms) are referred to as Jackaroos and Jillaroos.
"The inclusion of the downfall of royalty would fit also as a more direct reference" - yes, this seems a historically plausible origin, possibly a royal beheading, as in the king & queen of france, with the pail of water , breaking his crown, & jill 'tumbling' after, being used similar to an old-english style known as 'kenning'
1 Samuel 2:7-8 (KJV) 7 The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up. 8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, [and] lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set [them] among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth [are] the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them. I don’t think the Bible teaches that the poor should not attempt to rise above their station. Psalms 113:7-8 (KJV) 7 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, [and] lifteth the needy out of the dunghill; 8 That he may set [him] with princes, [even] with the princes of his people.
@@elizabethtaylor9242 good call. It does however, have an in built, unspoken, clause. It doesn't matter how hard you work or the grades you attain if the Lord decides not to lift you up all that effort is for nothing. If you get lifted up because the Lord lifted you up then if he sees someone else to lift up you're out on your ear. Having said that. If you believe and that has worked for you then good luck to you.
Thanks for your insights🥰. Your research is intriguing, up-to-date and well presented. The rhymes seem to have deep roots and multiple levels of meaning. From your pod cast, I believe that the language used to describe events may have come from ancient traditions. Also, The events described in the rhymes do seem to fit the actions of kings and queens of England. Perhaps, over time old rhymes were revised. As a result, new levels of meaning were developed to capture a new generation. ❤your work is fascinating and greatly appreciated.
I love the thought of it being about the beer measurements. Being a sarcastic person myself, I can picture it as an expectation of the beer getting watered down even further to make up for the shorter measurements.
I was mostly raised by my grandmother who although she left school at 17, had studied history to the level of PhD. It was from her that I first heard the theory (in the 70s) of the illegitimacy of the English Monarchy from the time of William the Conqueror (not confirmed by historians til decades later). Nursery Rhymes were how she taught history too (so thank you!). I don't remember her Jack and Gill stories, but Ring a Ring a Rosie (being the Plague) stuck with me. My all time favourite though was "A farmer went riding upon his grey mare..." I'd sit on her lap and she'd bounce her knees for each "Bumpity, bumpity bump". I can no longer remember the history of it though (if she taught it to me). Thinking back, I'd love to know who or what the raven represents.
raven... knowledge, foresight.. ..likely a rhyme to try to teach girls to be careful of having bumpity bumps on someone's lap or their being too close for inappropriate reasons...
It's English, so it's almost certainly the one about drinking. English are known for drinking and taking the piss. It's a drinking song sung by the locals. It mocks the king, the landlord, their fellow patrons and themselves. Then embellished by children singing about worse for wear adults, lying all over the place. The story of someone called Jack falling down a hill, it's too, on the nose. People did have a macabre side to them, but it's not very likely they would sing about an expectant father dying in an accident. That only seemed to happen if the person was bad in some way. Furthermore, it's not likely the rhyme would have become widely known if it originated in a small village in Somerset. As you say, there are many examples for English people to use 'Jack' to mean a generic man, but it's used to describe men in general or when they didn't have an actual name. The King Louise idea, is too contrived to me. Too many exceptions need to me made, it doesn't really fit. It's about a French king, they knew his name and it's not as old as the rhyme. No, for me, it's almost certainly about the pint sizes.
Again brilliant. I now look for this channel although I always take a deep breath and try and prepare myself for another childhood memory to be destroyed with cold facts. Many thanks.
I'm delighted to hear that you enjoy my videos (even if they are a little difficult to digest at times!) Thank you so much for your support and for returning to the channel 🖤☺️
Here’s what I think… “all of the above” As a follower of Folklore and Origin channels, I can tell you from the comments, every nation seems to have their own version of any fable or verse, slightly altered to be relevant and often repurposed to caution a new generation. I would definitely go with the Icelandic tale as origin; spread, adapted and evolving over the ages to have new connotations. Otherwise they just become nonsense rhymes. So from Folktale to a tragic couple to Charles I’s beer tax, the verse took on new meanings and possibly as you say was requoted during the French revolution etc. That said, if we are going with creation stories, then the Icelandic myth likely goes back way, way earlier. Today its also rhyming slang: Climbed the Jack and Gill. (Hill), She’s on the Jack and Gill. (Pill) Excellent video as always, would love to hear your thoughts on Goosey, Goosey Gander origins.
Ive heard that the phrase to Take One Down A Peg or Two also comes from drinking ale. Drinking vessels that were passed around a group of drinkers had to be marked at intervals with pegs and one wasnt to imbibe more than one pegs worth of beer in one go by a law designed as a measure to combat over consumption and drunkeness, though had the reverse effect as people tried to outdo each other drinking more than a pegs worth in one draught. There are lots of "Jacks" representing unknown, unidentified or generic male figures, Jack in the Box, Jack o Lantern, Jack Tar for a sailor, Jack the Giant Killer , Jack the Ripper for the unidentified serial killer, etc, in the 20th century it was replaced by John, if you didnt know a man's name he was a John, as in Hello John Got a New Motor, a 1980s humourous record by comic Alexie Sayle. Perhaps in the future songs like this will become looked upon like the Resurrectionist delving into nursery rhymes today.
It is really hard to tell. I almost want to say it had most to do with the ill-fated couple who left their son behind. But they were commoners. Who would think enough of just this particular couple to make a rhyme to last over the centuries? The one about the drinks makes sense too. It's just too sad that we do not have the exact origin and reason.
The story of Marie Antoinette’s notorious statement of let them eat cake, I heard wasn’t said when she was Queen of Frances ,but when she was a child in Vienna. One day a tutor told her that the peasants were starving and had nothing to eat. Young Maria said can’t they eat the Eucharist. Not a surprising statement from the youngest child of Maria Theresa.
I'd like to hear about the gruesome tale of Hansel and Grettel. Even if it doesn't have hidden meaning, it is still an awful story of a father leading his children into the woods, and leaving them for dead. And did I mention cannibalism?
The version I heard was: Jack and Jill went up the hill - Each had a buck and a quarter. When Jill came down she had two-fifty - They didn't go up for water!
I've just come across your channel, watched a couple of videos and I'm totally hooked! I've subscribed! I love all things history, especially English history and to hear that these nursery rhymes that we all know so well from our childhood actually have dark origins and much deeper meanings is so intriguing. I absolutely love hearing about the different theories, really thought-provoking! I look forward to learning about the rest of them! Great stuff, please write a book of them! ❤
Once again, a fascinating look into history. I am interested in the origins of twinkle, twinkle, little star. It might seem obvious, but it could be more.
These video lessons are becoming addictive. I grew up with my grandmother singing many of them to me when it was bed time. I never thought that there was much to them. Now, in my twilight years, I find all of this quite fascinating. It is also bringing back much of the history that was taught to us in school. That was when schools were for learning and not for indoctrination. One of the things of which I was reminded was the part about "eating cake" which was supposedly spoken by Marie Antionette. Back then it was factual that she did say that. Now, we believe it to not be true. That is not what struck me though. The term for cake back then was brioche which was a very sweet and expensive treat. At some time I learned that the term "cake" was used to describe the black carbon that was deposited upon the oven walls and chimney as a by product of the baking process. I wonder if those who came to that conclusion actually misinterpreted the word "coke" which is the true name of that product and thereby called it "coke"? Since Marie was actually quite concerned about the wellness f her subjects the entire concept is balderdash and we may never know the real story. Yet, it does stimulate the mind and imagination to ponder the subject. That's the end of my rambling, for now.
What is odd is that someone would put a well on top of a hill. That locations requires more digging to reach water that on a flat surface, as most of the rainwater will tend to either run off a hill or sink down to the lowest point of the hill due to gravity.. For this reason wells are best built near a hillside -- they yield more water as the gravity provides increased water pressure that raises the water table of the well, making it easier to fetch the pail of water in the first place.
Presumimg it had some truth to it, Marie wouldn't have said "cake", it would have been brioche she was referring to, and it wouldn't have been a sarcastic or cruel remark on her part, but a statement borne of ignorance rather than ill will. Surrounded by so much food, as she was, and unaware of how ordinary people struggled, even for bread, her remark must be interpreted as meaning, "How can the people be starving? Look at all of this food!"
Horror movie quality of children singing the rhyme to start, nice touch. I think there are no innocent rhymes, ironically they are taught to us as innocent children.
I always thought the Mother Goose rhymes were forms of political satire and social commentary, something very dangerous in turbulent eras, such as Tudor or Jacobite eras. It is likely the actual meanings have been lost to time, but doubtful they ever had a literal interpretation.
Jack and jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water, jack fell down and broke his crown,and jill came t umbeling after, up jack got ,and home did trot, as fast as he could caper, he went to bed to mend his head with vinegar and brown paper, when jill got home how she did laugh to see jacks paper plaster, her mother vexed did whip her next for causing jacks disaster. (EARLY ENGLISH VERSION).
My cousins use to say "Jack n Jill went up the hill to fetch a golden leaf🤭, Jack fell down and split his pants and Jill said ,"Where's the beef"? ". 😂 We were so silly. 😂
I go for the ale that was watered down by a pail of water and the reduction of the amount of ale poured in a glass. It explains both the pail of water and Jack breaking his crown and Jill tumbling after. While the execution of King Louis and Marie Antoinette seems a good match it fails to explain the pail of water that they carried. How does the pail of water feature in the execution? Solve the riddle of the pail of water in the execution of the monarchy during the French Revolution and I will go for this explanation seeing that most nursery rhymes deal with dark secrets sanitized so as to help the human psyche cope with fearful events.
Verse 3 Jill came in and she did grin to see Jack's paper plaister, Mother, vex'd, did whip her next for causing Jack's disaster. Head injuries were indeed life threatening in the day, all the more alarming because typically, they bleed profusely.
There used to be an ad in men's magazines. Jack and Jill wet up the hill To fetch a pail of water Jack fell down And broke his Crown Royal And now Jill is dating some guy from L.A.
Jack & Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water. Jack fell down & broke his crown, Jill collapsed with laughter. Up Jack got & home did trot as fast as he could caper. To old dame Dobb who patched his knob with vinegar & brown paper.
I don't know if it is an old song or inspired by a fairly tale, but I remember a song titled, little sir Hugh, sung by Steel Eye Span... sounds like a sweet children's song.. well, until you finally figure out how gruesome some of the lyrics are...
It's a version of a British folk song. The original text, which is not preserved, depicted the death of a little boy called Hugh in 1255. He was kidnapped on July 31 and found dead in a well on 29 August. His death was immediately labelled a human sacrifice. This event disturbed the Crown, so much so that Henry the Third himself arrived at the scene. But the murderer was never found. Instead, the public accused the entire Jewish community. Around 90 random people were arrested and condemned to execution, but later released. The accusations didn't stop though, as different texts appeared depicting the tortures Hugh supposedly went through in vivid details, as if the author was present during the act. Around that time, the song you have mentioned was written. The version by Steel Eye is censored, but other versions do not hesitate to tell that the garden belong to a Jewish person and that the lady in green is Jewish as well. Its a propaganda song basically, alternatively named as "The Jew's Garden".
@tinnasell4161 wow! typically, I mean looking at the song at face value, I would have guessed the song was a dark "fable" meant to scare children into not doing certain things for their own safety... but I never would have imagined there was such a significant historical event to back this up. It's unfortunate to consider the crime was used to foster persecution, but some things will never change with human nature it seems... The brutality of the crime does explain why the song is so hauntingly creepy. In the Steel Eyespan song, it sounds like the crime was committed as an act of witchcraft, but I wouldn't have made the connection between linking something that sounds like witchcraft to the persecution of the Jews without the background history explained... it really is interesting how the origins of these children's rhymes and folk songs have a much deeper significance when the actual history behind them is able to be tied to them... thanks for explaining this one to me.
If the rhyme was used for the king and queen of France why would they be going to fetch water? Aside from that, for all she was disconnected from reality Marie Antoinette apparently managed to make one useful law: Bakers have to provide bread at a cheap price, and if they are out of bread then the more expensive brioche must be sold at the cost of common bread. This was because bakers tried to circumvent the earlier law to sell cheap bread by baking just a few breads and then going "oops, all sold out but you can buy this brioche instead". "Let them eat brioche" meant that the people must be fed even if the bakers were losing money and might have been quite popular saying among common folk, which would explain why almost nobody suggests she never said anything like that. But then came a year when harvest was bad and the food stored in Paris had either spoiled or corrupt officials had outright bought moldy grain and stolen the money and there was no flour for bakers to make either bread or brioche. So when people came to gates of Versailles complaining that food was actually running out instead of just overpriced and Marie goes "we dealt with this already, just give them brioche" the crowd was not happy that the queen was not up to date on what was happening outside her little royal fantasy land. Despite what tales like to tell it is rarely the poorest folk who start revolutions but the middle class and rich commoners who don't want to lose their money, such as bakers who were forced to sell bread at fixed price while the cost of grain skyrocketed. Between folks being eager to throw dirt on the royalty and the rulers of France actually being pretty bad, plus the all too common problem that nobody actually wrote history down when it was current but years later, it would not be anything weird for the facts to be misinterpreted so they fit the current propaganda such as translating brioche as cake so it looks like instead of offering them simply another type of bread Marie is suggesting the commoners should buy a fancy noble treat.
A woman I knew from France named Genivieve (spelling?) told me that the price of bread was fixed by the government. When I visited Europe. one place still had such a law. Of course with fixed food prices there would be shortages of some items. If a baker ran out of bread, he had to sell his stock of cake at the price he had been told he could sell his bread. That was what she had been taught in school in France.
Interesting episode. I would like to think it's based on the romantic tale but more likely the beer measure😁🍻 Which do you think it was? Lovingthe channel 👍🏻
Thank you! So glad you're enjoying the videos :) Personally, I lean towards the beer tax/measures. I can imagine the song being invented by a group in a tavern after one too many jack and jills!
The explanation that I prefer, is that J & J were two young people who met by chance at a festival or gathering, and sent on an errand. They used the opportunity to get to know each other better, which resulted in Jack offering Jill 1/2 Crown for a quick sexual escapade. Jill agreed, and they had a pleasurable tumble. They could not have been lovers, otherwise Jack would not have offered money. Usually young people had no money on them, except at a festival. It was a common saying, that if you spent a portion of your Crown, you broke your Crown. Nursery rhymes was a safe place to hide dark messages, because that would be the last place where one would look for them. The reason for all the speculation about the origin of a rhyme, is that the originator made shure their tracks were covered properly.
Though the phrase Jack and Jill is older than the rhyme, the original rhyme was Jack and Gill and was about two boys. Don’t know if this has any impact on the meaning of the rhyme.
Okay, how about the water that collects in the indentation at the top of a torr (I’ve heard of that being a special spot for scrying, using it as a reflection pool). That would be very special water indeed. Might there be significance in taking it, particularly perhaps without permission? That makes a reason to have a well at the top of the hill?🤷🏻
I’d love to hear your video about Hansel and Gretal and who this witch was supposed to be, Baba Yaga, or just some random hungry old lady who wanted to eat a couple of kids in the Middle Ages.
I always had a fascination for the origins of some of these nursery rhymes. This is such a good channel.
Thank you so much, so glad you're enjoying it! 🖤☺️
Nicely reasoned
It's spooky
I have to go with the one about the drinks and the taxation. I think the original purpose of most such rhyme was to get away with social criticism, which was very tricky with kings. And the level of outrage would have been HUGE and enduring.
Yes, I saw a Scottish metal detectorist's video a while back. he was detecting around the sight of the a gallows and found an alcohol measure cup (with customs and excise marks/crown etc). He said it might have been a hanged perons last drink maybe. He said the rhyme was about the changes in these measuring standards, and that Scotland still used a larger measure today. From Google -
In Great Britain, the standard single measure of spirits in a pub was 1⁄6 gill (23.7 mL) in England, and 1⁄5 gill (28.4 mL) in Scotland, while the 1⁄4 gill (35.5 mL) was also a common measure in Scotland, and still remains as the standard measure in pubs in Ireland.
JACK AND JILL COULDN'T MAKE IT OUT
A gill is still 1/4 pint (5 fluid ounces). If Charles I did reduce it then it must have been reinstated at some point afterwards. 4:27
“Half of a gill is a jack, or an eighth of a pint.[3] But in northern England, a quarter pint could also be called a jack or a noggin, rather than a gill, and in some areas a half pint could be called a gill, particularly for beer and milk.” from Wikipedia (reference 3 is from a 1977 book)
I agree, makes most sense to me too
I agree.
This has become my favorite channel. The narrator, the graphics just superb.💚
Thank you so much! Really appreciate the kind words and I'm thrilled to hear you're enjoying the channel so much 🖤☺️
Keep it going it's well done😅
You have a lovely voice perfect for telling these stories
Thank you for your kind words 🖤☺️
Gave a like to both comments here . I don't ever mean any disrespect , however ~ the voice in these videos COULD be Ai generated . I agree ( that ) it's a perfect voice for this type of channel . Nobody could even be sure IF the voice is from a real person unless there's a face reveal along with the voice speaking in real time. Love the channel and the voice even without a face from it shown. ♑✍️🇧🇻🇦🇺
I honestly had never thought about the origins of nursery rhymes before. I remember watching a show called “The Truth about Mother Goose” when I was around 10. I became really curious and then I discovered that so many of them revolved around death (Ring around the rosies, London Bridges, …)
I was never taught a 2nd verse to Jack & Jill (USA vs Europe/England? ), so I thought it meant both of them died.
Beautiful and unique channel and a fabulous speaker.
Stunning in its originality.
Thank you so much :) 🖤
At the time of Marie Antoinette cake was the name for the ends of bread, not merely the sugary confections we think of.
And the quote predates her being queen.
I remember writing about this rhyme many years ago. It was just my own theory that this was a reference to Christianity overtaking paganism. "Jack and Gill" were common names and back then, many children were unbaptised, therefore "pagans". It was always the line "went UP the hill to fetch a pail of water" that puzzled me; wells, as you point out, were usually in valleys, as water ran down from the hills. But what if there was a natural spring or waterfall that commoners believed had healing powers and was associated with a genus locii, or local goddess/spirit? What if the church learned that these pagan practises were still taking place and set about punishing those who went to the spring or waterfall, hence "Jack's injury, followed by "Jill's" and the loss of their pail of water? Having no healing water to bring back, for whatever purpose he had been sent to fetch the water in the first place and having now suffered injury, he was forced instead to use the old remedy of vinegar and brown paper.
It's just my own theory, but I thought that I would share it. Hope that you don't mind.
Thank you for sharing your insights! 🖤 I like your interpretation; I've always felt there was some connection to the stories of the fountain of youth in this rhyme, but that's just my gut feeling and I've no evidence to back it up. I like your idea about baptism too: I'd never thought of that angle! Thank you for giving me some further food for thought :)
This is fascinating!!! Never thought nursery rhymes had a dark background. Great video!!!
Thank you so much :)
I used to sing all the verses (with slightly different words) to my kids at bedtime. This was super interesting! Thank you! From Mississippi USA. 🤠
Thank you so much! Glad you enjoyed 🖤☺️
I think ALL English based societies will be so interested in your site.
Terrific 🙏🇬🇧🥰
I put my kids to sleep singing nursery rhymes. By the time they were 3 years old they could sing most of them, even singing the alphabet. Could not write but it was fun in the kindergarten and easy.
I absolutely love seeing a new video from this channel!! You truly do a phenomenal job!! Great bedtime stories for me and my teen granddaughter
That's wonderful to hear! 😊 I'm thrilled that you and your granddaughter enjoy the videos. Thank you so much for your kind words and continued support 🖤
The presenters voice is iconic!! As an American I always had such an affinity for the British way of speaking English. Excellent topic for a website!
Very interesting videos. I remember reading Mother Goose as a child. Brother's Grimm were rather macabre tales too. Intriguing, the different stories behind them.
Thank you! :)
Currently reading the land of stories seþ by Chris Colfer new twists on the fairytale s. Fairytale were often referring to rape and violence if you look at origins perhaps they can be included here?
I very much like what you are doing here, and wish Good Luck to be upon you. Burke and Hare and their ilk hidden in the channel name is amusing too. Unearthing the Old tales and digging out hidden meanings like a Knox is just too fun.
Thank you so much for the kind words! 🖤☺️ And I applaud you on spotting the channel name and it's meaning :D
Hello! Could you do "Georgey Porgey" and "Ride a cock horse to Banbury Cross"? Intrigued by those rhymes. Thank you. Beautifully narrated.
Thank you so much for your suggestions and kind words! 🖤☺️
Banbury was my great great gmas maiden name!
I always heard Georgie Porgie was about George Villiers, Duke of Buckingham. The Villiers were a powerful in the courts of both Charles I and II. But I don’t think there’s actual evidence for it.
I never could figure out what a cock horse is. The first thing I thought was some kind of bird/mammal chimaera experiment.
@@TheTrumpReaper a cock-horse was a very spirited horse, good natured but with outgoing personality & energy, one that didn't tire fast & that looked good. It came to mean a toy rocking horse or hobby horse over time. It could also be applied to a "cocky" young man, confident, pleasant, quick to smile, but kind of strutting, one who knew he was attractive but not necessarily the type who abuse that as far as I've ever heard. I was of course not around when that usage was so I can't be certain, but this came up in an English class with a teacher who was bright & well read. I've heard it used as spirited & for a rocking horse by elderly relatives, in my youth. We would squirm & insist they use other wording. 😂 I remember being embarrassed by that, & so, hearing it was once usual, in class, and that it referred to a strutting rooster stereotype made it make sense to me. Cock & Bull is a tavern name in multiple places & the sign outside tends to be a rooster with his chest puffed up, looking, well, cocky.
0:53 I have to say , I think this is my favorite, especially the bit about the vinegar and brown paper.
I have been watching your videos the last week and have watched quite a few. This one was BY FAR the creepiest. The beginning of the childs voice saying the rhyme sent chills up my spine 😮 absolutely brilliant! I am enjoying learning the origins of so many fairy tales & rhymes! Thank you so much! I echo everyone that says your voice is perfect for these stories, you keep a perfect timing & cadence as you speak, along with your magnificent accent. I always wanted to visit Europe and now I want to even more!❤️Keep up the amazing work!
Excellent series of possible nursery rhyme origins. Absolutely love the historical, period images used for illustration.
Thank you, so enjoyably immersive.
Thank for this video, I never realized that nursery rhymes is full of history.
You're very welcome! 🖤☺️
I always love nursery rhymes ,and as a child you took the ryhmes as it was, but thanks for going deeper into the meanings. I love your channel, now i can get a better understanding
Wormwood and calendula soaked In Vinegar, used as a poultice was used frequently for muscle strains, headaches, and bruises. The brown paper contracted slightly as it dried.🖤🇨🇦
Or comfrey, or plantain, or arnica. I've used calendula salve on a bruise. It worked quickly.
Intresting back storys . Thank you for sharing . 💐👍🥇
Namaste 🙏
Thank you for watching 🖤☺️
@@The-Resurrectionists a pleasure , and educational . Thank you .
Stories vs storys
Well well well well ( sorry I couldn’t help myself ) another fine mystery you’ve handed me, you Mistress of dark tales. So intriguing this one oooo. You ARE SO gorgeous at twisted tales. I seem to remember a tv series, mm. My dearly departed grandmother spoke often about medicinal use of Vinegar. Well, ( there I go again) thanks for another tantalising journey into the past dark days of the macabre and sinister perhaps. I hope you don’t mind, I have a few that may or may not prove useful for our foray. SeeSaw Marjorie Daw, Sing A Song Of Sixpence, Oh Dear, What Can The Matter Be ( I’d be extremely surprised if the later is nothing more than just a little playful ditty). Thank you so very much for indulging me. I love your videos and all of the production work and research time that you dedicate to each one. Well done. Great job. Excellent artwork. Voice is superb by the way. Love it . Cheers Colin
Thank you so much for your thoughtful suggestions! I had actually forgotten all about "oh dear, what can the matter be" - I'm intrigued to research that one! I appreciate your input and fantastic ideas. I'm thrilled to hear that you enjoy my videos and the effort I put into research and production. Your kind words truly mean a lot 🖤☺️
I love your nursery rhymes I was thinking about might be orgins and meanings behind "Ding dong dell the pussys in the well" .....Pete from Tasmania, here in Australia....😂
Well is a deep subject you might fall in.
I've always loved the "Taffy was a Welshman" Rhyme. I am dying to know the possible origins of that savage little ditty.
Well according to Aleister Crowley (who was almost certainly not being serious):
Taffy was a Welshman, / Taffy was a thief; / Taffy came to my house / And stole a leg of beef. / I went to Taffy’s house; / Taffy was in bed. / I took a carving knife, / And cut of Taffy’s head.
Taffy is merely short for Taphtatharath, the Spirit of Mercury and the God of Welshmen or thieves. ‘My house’ is of course equivalent to ‘my magick circle.’ Note that Beth, the letter of Mercury and ‘The Magus,’ means ‘a house’,
The beef is a symbol of the Bull, Apis the Redeemer. This is therefore that which is written: ‘Oh my God, disguise thy glory! come as a thief, and let us steal away the sacraments!’
In the following verse we find that Taffy is ‘in bed,’ owing to the operation of the sacrament. The great task of the Alchemist has been accomplished; the mercury is fixed.
One can then take the Holy Dagger, and separate the Caput Mortuum from the Elixir. Some Alchemists believe that the beef presents that dense physical substance which is imbibed by Mercury for his fixation; but here as always we should prefer the more spiritual interpretation.”
Rubbish. Albeit well thought out rubbish. I always heard the last part of the Rhyme was "I went to Taffy's house, Taffy was in bed. I took the leg of beef and hit him on the head." There are other variations, none of which involve decapitation. They do, however, have a retaliatory theme. The Welsh were a constant thorn in the side of the British for many years, much like the Lowland Scots. My money is on a hidden political meaning.
I've never even heard this one 😳
@mandywescott707 "Taffy was a Welshman/Taffy was a thief/Taffy came to my house/and stole a leg of beef/I went to Taffy's house/Taffy was in bed/I took the leg of beef/And hit him on the head.
This was always my favorite nursery Rhyme because it is laugh out loud, cartoon violence funny.
@@finncullenHe altered the nursery rhyme to make it much darker and more sinister. In the original, the victim of bovine larceny burglarizes Taffy's residence and hits Taffy in the head with said comestible. He doesn't behead him.
I think it was the ale one also, Because king louis and his wife were beheaded in 1793. And the rhyme was published in London in about 1765.
I love your concept, great presentation.
Keep up the fantastic work. ❤
Thank you so much 🖤☺️
I think the call to the poor in life to not try to rise above their station is plausible. It fits with early and even contemporary church teaching. The inclusion of the downfall of royalty would fit also as a more direct reference would have aroused Royal ire. By the way young men and women working on outback Australian farming or grazing stations (farms) are referred to as Jackaroos and Jillaroos.
"The inclusion of the downfall of royalty would fit also as a more direct reference" - yes, this seems a historically plausible origin, possibly a royal beheading, as in the king & queen of france, with the pail of water , breaking his crown, & jill 'tumbling' after, being used similar to an old-english style known as 'kenning'
1 Samuel 2:7-8 (KJV) 7 The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up. 8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, [and] lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set [them] among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth [are] the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.
I don’t think the Bible teaches that the poor should not attempt to rise above their station.
Psalms 113:7-8 (KJV) 7 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, [and] lifteth the needy out of the dunghill; 8 That he may set [him] with princes, [even] with the princes of his people.
@@elizabethtaylor9242 good call. It does however, have an in built, unspoken, clause. It doesn't matter how hard you work or the grades you attain if the Lord decides not to lift you up all that effort is for nothing. If you get lifted up because the Lord lifted you up then if he sees someone else to lift up you're out on your ear. Having said that. If you believe and that has worked for you then good luck to you.
A groovy episode. Lovely pictures. Food for thought.
Thank you!
Deliciously macabre...as dark as my own tell tale heart...
🖤
Thanks for your insights🥰. Your research is intriguing, up-to-date
and well presented.
The rhymes seem to have deep roots and multiple levels of meaning.
From your pod cast,
I believe that the language used to describe events may have come from ancient traditions.
Also,
The events described in the rhymes do seem to fit the actions of kings and queens of England.
Perhaps, over time old rhymes were revised. As a result, new levels of meaning were developed to capture a new generation.
❤your work is fascinating and greatly appreciated.
I love the thought of it being about the beer measurements. Being a sarcastic person myself, I can picture it as an expectation of the beer getting watered down even further to make up for the shorter measurements.
I was mostly raised by my grandmother who although she left school at 17, had studied history to the level of PhD. It was from her that I first heard the theory (in the 70s) of the illegitimacy of the English Monarchy from the time of William the Conqueror (not confirmed by historians til decades later). Nursery Rhymes were how she taught history too (so thank you!).
I don't remember her Jack and Gill stories, but Ring a Ring a Rosie (being the Plague) stuck with me.
My all time favourite though was "A farmer went riding upon his grey mare..." I'd sit on her lap and she'd bounce her knees for each "Bumpity, bumpity bump". I can no longer remember the history of it though (if she taught it to me). Thinking back, I'd love to know who or what the raven represents.
raven... knowledge, foresight.. ..likely a rhyme to try to teach girls to be careful of having bumpity bumps on someone's lap or their being too close for inappropriate reasons...
It's English, so it's almost certainly the one about drinking. English are known for drinking and taking the piss. It's a drinking song sung by the locals. It mocks the king, the landlord, their fellow patrons and themselves. Then embellished by children singing about worse for wear adults, lying all over the place. The story of someone called Jack falling down a hill, it's too, on the nose. People did have a macabre side to them, but it's not very likely they would sing about an expectant father dying in an accident. That only seemed to happen if the person was bad in some way. Furthermore, it's not likely the rhyme would have become widely known if it originated in a small village in Somerset. As you say, there are many examples for English people to use 'Jack' to mean a generic man, but it's used to describe men in general or when they didn't have an actual name. The King Louise idea, is too contrived to me. Too many exceptions need to me made, it doesn't really fit. It's about a French king, they knew his name and it's not as old as the rhyme. No, for me, it's almost certainly about the pint sizes.
Given that these rhymes predated their publication it’s highly unlikely Jack and Jill have anything to do with event occurring in the 18thC,.
Always fascinating and well-done - thanks.
Again brilliant. I now look for this channel although I always take a deep breath and try and prepare myself for another childhood memory to be destroyed with cold facts.
Many thanks.
I'm delighted to hear that you enjoy my videos (even if they are a little difficult to digest at times!) Thank you so much for your support and for returning to the channel 🖤☺️
2:02am........ I'm a few " Jacks " full, darkling awake !!!!
❤ The editing
It sounds like you had quite the night! 😄 I'm glad to hear you enjoyed the video. Thanks for watching even in the early hours, cheers! 🍻🖤
👍@@The-Resurrectionists
Here’s what I think…
“all of the above”
As a follower of Folklore and Origin channels, I can tell you from the comments, every nation seems to have their own version of any fable or verse, slightly altered to be relevant and often repurposed to caution a new generation.
I would definitely go with the Icelandic tale as origin; spread, adapted and evolving over the ages to have new connotations. Otherwise they just become nonsense rhymes.
So from Folktale to a tragic couple to Charles I’s beer tax, the verse took on new meanings and possibly as you say was requoted during the French revolution etc.
That said, if we are going with creation stories, then the Icelandic myth likely goes back way, way earlier.
Today its also rhyming slang: Climbed the Jack and Gill. (Hill), She’s on the Jack and Gill. (Pill)
Excellent video as always, would love to hear your thoughts on Goosey, Goosey Gander origins.
Thank you for sharing your insights! You might want to keep a look out for my next upload ;)
The beauty lies in the ambiguity. Change a word here or there and the poem takes on a new life and a new meaning.
Fascinating!! Thank you so much.
Glad you enjoyed it 🖤☺️
Love your analyses. Please do more.
Ive heard that the phrase to Take One Down A Peg or Two also comes from drinking ale. Drinking vessels that were passed around a group of drinkers had to be marked at intervals with pegs and one wasnt to imbibe more than one pegs worth of beer in one go by a law designed as a measure to combat over consumption and drunkeness, though had the reverse effect as people tried to outdo each other drinking more than a pegs worth in one draught. There are lots of "Jacks" representing unknown, unidentified or generic male figures, Jack in the Box, Jack o Lantern, Jack Tar for a sailor, Jack the Giant Killer , Jack the Ripper for the unidentified serial killer, etc, in the 20th century it was replaced by John, if you didnt know a man's name he was a John, as in Hello John Got a New Motor, a 1980s humourous record by comic Alexie Sayle. Perhaps in the future songs like this will become looked upon like the Resurrectionist delving into nursery rhymes today.
Jack and Jill went up the hill
each with a pail, and a quarter.
Jill came down with fifty cents.
Do you think they went up for water?
LOL
Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a bucket of water, I don't know what they did up there, but now they've got daughter.
Please don’t spoil the children’s Nursery Rhymes with smut.
It’s not smut. It’s how you came to be here, and I’ll bet it wasn’t without excitement either. 😂🤣😂
@@ravenmeyer3740 Well said!!!😄
It is really hard to tell. I almost want to say it had most to do with the ill-fated couple who left their son behind. But they were commoners. Who would think enough of just this particular couple to make a rhyme to last over the centuries? The one about the drinks makes sense too. It's just too sad that we do not have the exact origin and reason.
The story of Marie Antoinette’s notorious statement of let them eat cake, I heard wasn’t said when she was Queen of Frances ,but when she was a child in Vienna. One day a tutor told her that the peasants were starving and had nothing to eat. Young Maria said can’t they eat the Eucharist. Not a surprising statement from the youngest child of Maria Theresa.
What a great channel ❤from Wisconsin USA
Thank you! Really appreciate the kind words 🖤☺️
Thanks for another Informative Video on jack and Jill I'm going to say it's around.that makes sense definitely Marie Anoinette & her lover.
Glad you enjoyed it :)
I love when i see a new video 🎉🎉🎉 from you! This one was excellent ❤
Thank you! I'm so glad you enjoyed! 🖤☺️
Your videos are a delightful blend of the Twilight Zone and Lemony Snicket. Love it!!!
Thank you! I'm so happy you're enjoying my channel :) 🖤
Love all of these 👏👏👏👏👏
This was brilliant thank you.
You're welcome! Glad you enjoyed 🖤☺️
I'd like to hear about the gruesome tale of Hansel and Grettel.
Even if it doesn't have hidden meaning, it is still an awful story of a father leading his children into the woods, and leaving them for dead. And did I mention cannibalism?
Yes, when you stop and think, many "children's stories" are really quite gruesome.
Jack and Jill went up the hill,
To fetch a pale of water ...
Don't know what they did up there,
But now, they got a daughter!!
They were playing duck, duck, goose?
The third and fourth lines line of the "virgin" 😀 that i heard was "Jill forgot to take her pill/And now they have a daughter."
3rd and 4th lines - Jill came down with half a crown / But not for carrying water!
@@WilliamDeVey
For making cream, perhaps?
The version I heard was:
Jack and Jill went up the hill -
Each had a buck and a quarter.
When Jill came down she had two-fifty -
They didn't go up for water!
I've just come across your channel, watched a couple of videos and I'm totally hooked! I've subscribed! I love all things history, especially English history and to hear that these nursery rhymes that we all know so well from our childhood actually have dark origins and much deeper meanings is so intriguing. I absolutely love hearing about the different theories, really thought-provoking! I look forward to learning about the rest of them! Great stuff, please write a book of them! ❤
Subbed....this is such a good channel!!!
Thank you, I really appreciate your support 🖤☺️
Once again, a fascinating look into history.
I am interested in the origins of twinkle, twinkle, little star. It might seem obvious, but it could be more.
I believe the beer measures. Not as dark but Jack and Gill are perfectly represented... sorry Somerset
I just love your videos seeing and learning what they meant is fantastic,I'm hooked,you got my vote!!!agedchild.😮😮😮😮😊😊😊❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
I learnt the rhyme exactly as shown at the beginning, word for word.
These video lessons are becoming addictive. I grew up with my grandmother singing many of them to me when it was bed time. I never thought that there was much to them. Now, in my twilight years, I find all of this quite fascinating. It is also bringing back much of the history that was taught to us in school. That was when schools were for learning and not for indoctrination.
One of the things of which I was reminded was the part about "eating cake" which was supposedly spoken by Marie Antionette. Back then it was factual that she did say that. Now, we believe it to not be true. That is not what struck me though. The term for cake back then was brioche which was a very sweet and expensive treat. At some time I learned that the term "cake" was used to describe the black carbon that was deposited upon the oven walls and chimney as a by product of the baking process. I wonder if those who came to that conclusion actually misinterpreted the word "coke" which is the true name of that product and thereby called it "coke"? Since Marie was actually quite concerned about the wellness f her subjects the entire concept is balderdash and we may never know the real story. Yet, it does stimulate the mind and imagination to ponder the subject.
That's the end of my rambling, for now.
Brilliant well made thank you
Thank you so much! 🖤☺️
What is odd is that someone would put a well on top of a hill. That locations requires more digging to reach water that on a flat surface, as most of the rainwater will tend to either run off a hill or sink down to the lowest point of the hill due to gravity.. For this reason wells are best built near a hillside -- they yield more water as the gravity provides increased water pressure that raises the water table of the well, making it easier to fetch the pail of water in the first place.
Lots of springs in the hills here in Somerset.
I feel more comfortable with the first story. The beautiful but sad story of the young couple, and the baby they didn't get to see.
Presumimg it had some truth to it, Marie wouldn't have said "cake", it would have been brioche she was referring to, and it wouldn't have been a sarcastic or cruel remark on her part, but a statement borne of ignorance rather than ill will. Surrounded by so much food, as she was, and unaware of how ordinary people struggled, even for bread, her remark must be interpreted as meaning, "How can the people be starving? Look at all of this food!"
😮 whoa
This is a cool channel.. love history, as well trying to figure out what things mean. Good job.
Thank you :)
This channel is sooooo good!
Thank you so much 🖤☺️
I wasn't utterly astounded, but I was a little bit astounded. Good work.
I never though you go up a hill to get water .....generally .......maybe if there was a spring up there....I guess.
I really feel that the story of Charles I trying to get more tax on a Jack or gill of beer sounds best & his greed did in effect break his crown.
Just found you! Immediately subbed! ❤
Thank you so much! Welcome! 🖤☺️
Hi my dark friend, thank you for another wonderful interpretation of this tale it certainly makes one think , 🤔 blessings from a darkling
Thank you Darkling, I'm so glad you enjoyed 🖤☺️
Even though the romantic one has great appeal, I think the theory about the beer is the most convincing.
Horror movie quality of children singing the rhyme to start, nice touch. I think there are no innocent rhymes, ironically they are taught to us as innocent children.
Watering down the beer is still practiced in some pubs today 😂
Children! Spooky enough! And any tale of virtue or woe fills me with terrific dread, I know thee well, falling Pell Mell, and always end up dead!
I always thought the Mother Goose rhymes were forms of political satire and social commentary, something very dangerous in turbulent eras, such as Tudor or Jacobite eras. It is likely the actual meanings have been lost to time, but doubtful they ever had a literal interpretation.
As someone who is named Jill, I approve of all these stories.
Jack and jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water, jack fell down and broke his crown,and jill came t umbeling after, up jack got ,and home did trot, as fast as he could caper, he went to bed to mend his head with vinegar and brown paper, when jill got home how she did laugh to see jacks paper plaster, her mother vexed did whip her next for causing jacks disaster. (EARLY ENGLISH VERSION).
My cousins use to say "Jack n Jill went up the hill to fetch a golden leaf🤭, Jack fell down and split his pants and Jill said ,"Where's the beef"? ". 😂 We were so silly. 😂
Love the channel , and hope for more content in the future😼
Thank you!
I go for the ale that was watered down by a pail of water and the reduction of the amount of ale poured in a glass. It explains both the pail of water and Jack breaking his crown and Jill tumbling after.
While the execution of King Louis and Marie Antoinette seems a good match it fails to explain the pail of water that they carried. How does the pail of water feature in the execution?
Solve the riddle of the pail of water in the execution of the monarchy during the French Revolution and I will go for this explanation seeing that most nursery rhymes deal with dark secrets sanitized so as to help the human psyche cope with fearful events.
Verse 3 Jill came in and she did grin to see Jack's paper plaister,
Mother, vex'd, did whip her next for causing Jack's disaster.
Head injuries were indeed life threatening in the day, all the more alarming because typically, they bleed profusely.
Excellent
There used to be an ad in men's magazines.
Jack and Jill wet up the hill
To fetch a pail of water
Jack fell down
And broke his Crown Royal
And now Jill is dating some guy from L.A.
Thanks!
Thank you so much, I really appreciate the support 🖤☺️
I remember getting a “Gill”of milk each day before I went to school in 1950. I think gills of milk were also given at school.
Jack & Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water. Jack fell down & broke his crown, Jill collapsed with laughter. Up Jack got & home did trot as fast as he could caper. To old dame Dobb who patched his knob with vinegar & brown paper.
I don't know if it is an old song or inspired by a fairly tale, but I remember a song titled, little sir Hugh, sung by Steel Eye Span... sounds like a sweet children's song.. well, until you finally figure out how gruesome some of the lyrics are...
It's a version of a British folk song. The original text, which is not preserved, depicted the death of a little boy called Hugh in 1255. He was kidnapped on July 31 and found dead in a well on 29 August. His death was immediately labelled a human sacrifice. This event disturbed the Crown, so much so that Henry the Third himself arrived at the scene. But the murderer was never found. Instead, the public accused the entire Jewish community. Around 90 random people were arrested and condemned to execution, but later released. The accusations didn't stop though, as different texts appeared depicting the tortures Hugh supposedly went through in vivid details, as if the author was present during the act. Around that time, the song you have mentioned was written. The version by Steel Eye is censored, but other versions do not hesitate to tell that the garden belong to a Jewish person and that the lady in green is Jewish as well. Its a propaganda song basically, alternatively named as "The Jew's Garden".
@tinnasell4161 wow! typically, I mean looking at the song at face value, I would have guessed the song was a dark "fable" meant to scare children into not doing certain things for their own safety... but I never would have imagined there was such a significant historical event to back this up. It's unfortunate to consider the crime was used to foster persecution, but some things will never change with human nature it seems... The brutality of the crime does explain why the song is so hauntingly creepy. In the Steel Eyespan song, it sounds like the crime was committed as an act of witchcraft, but I wouldn't have made the connection between linking something that sounds like witchcraft to the persecution of the Jews without the background history explained... it really is interesting how the origins of these children's rhymes and folk songs have a much deeper significance when the actual history behind them is able to be tied to them... thanks for explaining this one to me.
@@scottturcotte1860 I was surprised that the song survived till present, but yeah ... Glad I was able to help you 😊 Have a nice day))
I really enjoy your theories.
Thank you so much!
Wow - this is interesting!
If the rhyme was used for the king and queen of France why would they be going to fetch water? Aside from that, for all she was disconnected from reality Marie Antoinette apparently managed to make one useful law: Bakers have to provide bread at a cheap price, and if they are out of bread then the more expensive brioche must be sold at the cost of common bread. This was because bakers tried to circumvent the earlier law to sell cheap bread by baking just a few breads and then going "oops, all sold out but you can buy this brioche instead". "Let them eat brioche" meant that the people must be fed even if the bakers were losing money and might have been quite popular saying among common folk, which would explain why almost nobody suggests she never said anything like that.
But then came a year when harvest was bad and the food stored in Paris had either spoiled or corrupt officials had outright bought moldy grain and stolen the money and there was no flour for bakers to make either bread or brioche. So when people came to gates of Versailles complaining that food was actually running out instead of just overpriced and Marie goes "we dealt with this already, just give them brioche" the crowd was not happy that the queen was not up to date on what was happening outside her little royal fantasy land.
Despite what tales like to tell it is rarely the poorest folk who start revolutions but the middle class and rich commoners who don't want to lose their money, such as bakers who were forced to sell bread at fixed price while the cost of grain skyrocketed. Between folks being eager to throw dirt on the royalty and the rulers of France actually being pretty bad, plus the all too common problem that nobody actually wrote history down when it was current but years later, it would not be anything weird for the facts to be misinterpreted so they fit the current propaganda such as translating brioche as cake so it looks like instead of offering them simply another type of bread Marie is suggesting the commoners should buy a fancy noble treat.
A woman I knew from France named Genivieve (spelling?) told me that the price of bread was fixed by the government. When I visited Europe. one place still had such a law. Of course with fixed food prices there would be shortages of some items. If a baker ran out of bread, he had to sell his stock of cake at the price he had been told he could sell his bread. That was what she had been taught in school in France.
Probably the ale one
I agree; it’s the most straightforward.
I always thought the rhyme was about Louie and Antoinette. But the other theories also make sense
Interesting episode. I would like to think it's based on the romantic tale but more likely the beer measure😁🍻 Which do you think it was? Lovingthe channel 👍🏻
Thank you! So glad you're enjoying the videos :) Personally, I lean towards the beer tax/measures. I can imagine the song being invented by a group in a tavern after one too many jack and jills!
@@The-Resurrectionists 😁🍻🥴🥴
The explanation that I prefer, is that J & J were two young people who met by chance at a festival or gathering, and sent on an errand. They used the opportunity to get to know each other better, which resulted in Jack offering Jill 1/2 Crown for a quick sexual escapade. Jill agreed, and they had a pleasurable tumble.
They could not have been lovers, otherwise Jack would not have offered money. Usually young people had no money on them, except at a festival. It was a common saying, that if you spent a portion of your Crown, you broke your Crown.
Nursery rhymes was a safe place to hide dark messages, because that would be the last place where one would look for them.
The reason for all the speculation about the origin of a rhyme, is that the originator made shure their tracks were covered properly.
Though the phrase Jack and Jill is older than the rhyme, the original rhyme was Jack and Gill and was about two boys. Don’t know if this has any impact on the meaning of the rhyme.
Okay, how about the water that collects in the indentation at the top of a torr (I’ve heard of that being a special spot for scrying, using it as a reflection pool). That would be very special water indeed. Might there be significance in taking it, particularly perhaps without permission?
That makes a reason to have a well at the top of the hill?🤷🏻
I’d love to hear your video about Hansel and Gretal and who this witch was supposed to be, Baba Yaga, or just some random hungry old lady who wanted to eat a couple of kids in the Middle Ages.