Bird’s peak is honestly wild… just look at where he finished in MVP voting by year in his first 8 years… 1980 - 4th 1981 - 2nd 1982 - 2nd 1983 - 2nd 1984 - MVP 1985 - MVP 1986 - MVP 1987 - 3rd 1988 - 2nd
@@spacecolon7760 Yea but we're talking about historic rankings. MVP and MVP votes are very relevant, along with all-nbas, championships, all-stars, etc.
I mean sure, but look at it this way: winning the finals then would be the equivalent (or maybe a bit harder) of making the finals now. So the equivalent of a team making it to 11 finals in 13 years. First of all, that shows how ridiculous LeBron doing that is (10 finals in 14 years). I don’t love him and I don’t think he has much claim to the GOAT title, but he’s still bare minimum top 3 all time. Second, it shows how insane the Celtics were. I think Bill Russell is criminally underrated and Wilt is criminally overrated.
I mean sure, but if there was 30 teams and he single-handedly led them to 11 rings in 13 years, he’d be a full tier above any other player, ever. He’d be the GOAT by a bigger margin than Gretzky is in hockey. It wouldn’t be a conversation.
Wilt is CRIMINALLY. OVERRATED. Its actually crazy. It needs to become more of the norm for people to look at per36 numbers to compare eras. Much of Wilts greatness was just playing 48 minutes and being tall (obv some exaggerating) . Imagine multiplying everyone else's numbers by 1.3
The case for Jokic over Shaq - Shaq was the best player on 3 title teams in a time when he had the best coach in the league (a 6 time champion), the best gm in the league (Jerry West), a top 4 player in the league as teammate (Kobe), a top supporting cast (horry, fisher etc.). I think that you need more talent around Shaq to win a title. - Shaq also won in a time when the cba didn't allow other teams to build rosters to dethrone the champs like today. Therefore if a team had better superstar, role players, market and coach, thd rest of the league couldn't really compete. - If you drafted Jokic or Shaq in a vacuum I think that if you have Jokic your team goes further most of the time unless you have better conditions for Shaq. - shaq was a good but overrated defender in an era where big men could not get abused in pick n roll like today. Although a better shot blocker, I don't think he is above Jokic defensively in totality. Shaq in facf was picked on defense routinely and never wanted to guard anyone in space (watch the Pistons-Lakers tape). -in leadership, clutchness and culture building Jokic wins by a mile. I am not convinced that Shaq brings your franchise a title unless he has all these benefits. - Jokic has never underachied in the playoffs when he had equal or more talent than his opponents. Prime Shaq was beaten and ouplayed by Karl Malone and young Duncan when he was in his prime.
Stat nerd u fool ask any nba player who start tram with shaq not close. Joker have no centers go against so look good imagine hakeem,robinson,ewing,mourning. Shaq had more deal with
Interesting argument but shaq was better than joker and it’s not really close. It’s the fact he was an amazing two way player and the only thing joker does better is passing and shooting
@danielbattle7620 Scoring tie Rebounding tie (I lean jokic) Shooting jokic Playmaking Jokic Basketball iq Jokic Clutchness jokic Floor raising jokic Leadership jokic Defense rim Shaq Pick n roll defense i lean Jokic
The comp is Jabar. He was every bit as dominant, relative to his competition, individually in his prime, but also only got the 1 title during that timeframe due to a limited roster around him. Maybe Jokic will get another (or more than one), but as of now, it’s actually a really good comp.
Talking about Duncan's prime, before 2007, he is a consistently top 5 player in the league. After 2007, he is a consistent top 20 player in the league.
Btw, in the players we mentioned this video, Duncan's supporting cast is only better than Jokic, Jordan, and Garnett, and they won 5 titles. Another argument of his greatness.
My Top 5 3 year peaks in order. 1. Micheal Jordan 91-93, Unrivaled 2 way destroyer, the best scorer ever and was at his most complete when it came to athleticism and skill. Won the most and was quite frankly the most dominant player ever bar none. 2. Hot take but I’m going with Shaq 00-02 biggest monster I’ve ever seen by far with my two eyes those 3 straight finals run are just ridiculous, A complete Alien he was. 3. Lebron James 12-14 the ultimate 2 way Swiss Army knife/ Just being a blatant alien like Shaq physically skilled resistant and just more macro dominant player I’ve seen. 4. Curry 16-18 the most dangerous player ever not even a question, literally makes other teams forget how to play because of his gravity which I don’t think can be properly explained it’s just so real, and he’s just a nuclear weapon once he gets going, yes out of the 5 he’s got the lowest floor but his ceiling is just ridiculous because it’s just over once he’s got it. 5. Jokic 22-24 easily the highest floor ever dudes just a perfect player doesn’t do anything wrong, not defensively natural but he never misses reads on the defensive end. His just a savant and will climb the list over time. Mark it
Jordan and LeBron are the only two players ever to go back to back as MVP & FMVP while being All NBA 1st team and All Defensive 1st team. The greatest wing-guard and wing-forward ever. Jordan is an underrated all time playmaker during his peak and LeBron is an even more underrated all time versatile defender during his peak. I think Jordan has the gold standard peak, LeBron has the gold standard prime and Kareem has the gold standard career.
MJ is the goat for many reasons but as yall said, the guy is undeniably the greatest scorer of all time and a top 5 defensive guard of all time. That level of dominance on both ends as a GUARD is truly unprecedented🐐
So the “undeniably the greatest scorer of all time” argument is actually interesting at this point. There are guys who score at very high levels and do so more efficiently at this point (Curry, Jokic). That said, their scoring peaks either were are haven’t yet been as long as Jordan’s and Jordan is as far ahead of his era’s number 2 scorer as basically anyone other that Wilt (and Wilt is a complicated case). Because of those complex dynamics, I think it’s more fair to say he’s in the top tier as a scorer with a few other guys. Then he’s also as you say, a top 5ish defender as a guard. That’s a damn strong case for being the best overall player ever.
@parthsharma6516 I have him as number 2 all time. He redefined longevity and is the most versatile player of all time. I have him behind MJ because he didn’t accomplish as much as he did in a much longer career.
@joesephrafferty6763 Agreed. Jokic and Curry are more efficient than MJ due to their superior 3 pt shooting, but each haven’t put up the totality of production from a scoring standpoint that MJ has in an era that is much more catered towards the offensive player because the defensive rule changes have lessened defensive capabilities/aggression which MJ had to face more often. The sheer amount of seasons averaging over 30 ppg and being by far the most efficient volume scorer of all time is one of the main reasons MJ has the edge as the clear number 1 scorer. Jokic and Curry have certainly closed the gap and as for a skill by skill basis, it’s not nearly undeniable because MJ often had the gift of being the most athletic guard of all time even by today’s standards, which he could rely on very consistently. Whereas Jokic and Curry had to rely on their IQ and skills more to make up for their lack of athleticism.
@@b111xI think LeBron has accomplished so much more other than championships. He’s also a better general winner. Without Scottie pippen Michael Jordan was a bad teammate and a selfish basketball player who won one playoff series. LeBron’s global dominance regardless of circumstance is more impressive if you remove the 6-0 championship rose colored glasses.
Here’s the problem with the LeBron GOAT argument. The literal only argument for LeBron over Jordan is longevity, as you say. But… why has he been able to do this? I’d argue there are a few reasons: 1) He’s a freak. There’s no question about that. That is certainly a significant part of this, but it’s far from the only reason. 2) The difference between modern sports training, medicine and nutrition vs that of the 90s is a major, major difference. He’s not the only guy from this generation to maintain high level impact well past the time guys of Jordan’s era were cooked. 3) This is the big one: Load management. Over the last 6 full seasons, LeBron has averaged 58 games played. That’s 24 games missed per year. For context, Jordan played at least 80 games 10 of the 13 years he played in Chicago, had another year of 78 games played, and only played less than 70 twice- once due to injury and another because he had just come back from retirement. He even played 82 games his last year in Washington, at 39. Lebron also has spent long stretches of the last 10 years coasting in the regular season. Jordan never took a game off from an effort perspective.
The only argument isn’t longevity though? 1. Better passer, facilitator and leader 2. Better rebounder 3. Comparable defender (at their peak they are even, if not LeBron is better) yes Jordan got a DPOY. That comes with context and nuance. LeBron should’ve gotten his but was taken by Gasol who was 2nd team all defense. Not to mention how the standards and voters have changed from the 90’s and now usually bigs get it because they have the most impact. 3. More versatile 4. Better 3 point shooter 5. Comparable peaks you can argue either way. And I understand you’d argue Jordan which is fair but LeBrons peak was also amazing 6. Of course longevity and all the amount of accolades and sustained success and excellence he’s had. I did want to contribute a little to your points. On the modern medicine/ training thing. Yes it helps but it depends if the player actually wants to work hard and LeBron has the mindset and constantly puts a lot of money and training into maintaining his body. Load management is fair but I don’t think it is as much of a knock as you think it is
@@DisGuyLolz Better rebounder? 😅🤣😂 You must be one of those fools who thinks uncontested defensive rebound stat padding makes someone a great rebounder. Jordan was a WAY better offensive rebounder....the true indicator of a good rebounder. If you want to look at someone's rebounding prowess, look at their defensive to offensive rebounding ratio. The higher it is, the less impressive their rebounding numbers. Anything under 3 is pretty damn good. Under two is absolutely elite. Jordan's career he was at 2.9. Dennis Rodman, widely considered the greatest rebounder of all time was at 1.75. Westbrook, known defensive rebound padder, is at 3.4. Though his reputation as a rebound padder was garnered during his triple double days when he was at 5.1. LeBron's career is at 5.3. This season alone he is at 7.2. LeBron ranks outside the top 100 all time in terms of rebounders at his position. Jordan ranks in the top ten. So no, LeBron is NOT a better rebounder, get that idiotic notion out of your jock sniffing mind. DPOY? No, LeBron should not have beaten Gasol. He was clearly better in every respect and his rebound stats were way better. Better three point shooter? They have the exact same three point percentage in the playoffs. And this one is a doozie.... "longevity and all the amount of *accolades* and sustained success and excellence he’s had." I can't stop laughing at thie ridiculousness of this comment. Like, it just reeks of naivety and lack of basketball knowledge. LeBron is in his 22nd season. He has so far collected 65 *official* NBA accolades. In 13 full seasons, Jordan collected 70. In just 11 full seasons with the Bulls he collected 68. HE HAD MORE ACCOLADES IN HALF AS MANY SEASONS! Are you starting to see how idiotic that comment was? I should hope so. But further.... Jordan has 18 of the big four acolades (rings, MVP, FMVP, DPOY). LeBron has 12. Jordan was named first team All NBA or All Defense a combined 19 times. LeBron has been 1st team a combined 18 times. Man, the delusion of LeBron stans never ceases to amaze...😅🤣😂
I think 2012-14 Lebron is better than 2016-18, my argument is, if it is 2012 Lebron, 2016 Cavs will not go down 1-3 to the Warriors. Game 1-4 Lebron was not good in that final, he was struggle at 3-10 ft range around the basket. 2012-14 Lebron will not look like that
Yall need a tier list or like a list on screen so I can see it. I understand it’s in a podcast format but I’m not trying to listen for 2 hours to see your guys final list
Russell was not just a great blocker or rebounder. He would rebound or block the ball with intent. It would land in his teammates’ hands. The best defensive plays were transmuted into offensive plays.
The question isn't wethere jokic is a good defender but can you BUILD a great defense around him, which you can. Denver has had historicaly bad luck with its supporting roster
2018 playoff LeBron is the highest peak ever. Going into that playoff run people consistently picked against the Cavs every single round. Lebron single handily wills his way to the finals with the most absurd display of shot making and clutch play we’ve ever seen. Jordan gets glazed for beating Stockton and Malone who were playoff chokers. Gary Payton, Reggie miller who’s not even better than jimmy butler, Ewing who always had playoff questions. Beating drexler is like beating Tatum. Magic and a bum lakers squad. . Lebron had to face Steph kd Klay draymond on the same team, Parker ginobili Duncan kawhi on the same team, rondo Allen pierce Garnett on the same team, Durant Westbrook harden on the same team. Played against jokic in the playoffs 3 times. Not to mention Paul George Dwight Howard, jimmy butler, dame, dirk, booker, derozan.
"Jordan gets glazed for beating Stockton and Malone who were playoff chokers" The hypocrisy of this LeBron jock sniffer is out of control. Who the hell did the Cavs beat before facing those Warriors in the Finals? The Pacers in the first round. With Victor Oladipo as their best player. The Raptors in the second round. Now if you want to call players playoff chokers, the first two that should come to mind are DeMar DeRozan and Kyle Lowry. Especially during their Raptors days. Those two were MASSIVE playoff chokers. At least Stockton and Malone made consecutive NBA Finals. Also, Kevin Love came to play that series, averaging 20/10. LeBron, as usual, had a lot of help. The Celtics in the Conference Finals. And despite the Celtics being *led by a rookie* the series still went to seven games LOL And of course they then got swept in the Finals.
@ Kevin love was injured half that playoff run and was terrible defensively. Everyone in the media picked against the Cavs every series so GTFO. Playing against Stockton and Malone is the modern day equivalent of playing against embiid and harden
One thing about Jordan, before 1989-90 season, I think he is still not that good at balancing scoring and passing. His 1989 game 5 vs Pistons was a clear example: Since Doug Collins was criticizing him after Game 4 for not getting teammates involved, Jordan only took 8 shots in Game 5, went to another extreme
I saw that kobe and it wasn't even his peak. His peak was during 2005-2007 They were just wasted with the bad teams By 2008-2010 he was a way lesser defender and finisher around the rim. It was peak shot making Kobe with team basketball but the best version of Kobe was before that
Kareem miss 20 games in 1978 because of fighting with Kent Benson, I think he broke his hands at that fight. Little surprise of Kareem and Hakeem's ranking.
They have LeBron as the GOAT for basically being really good at 40yo. The year prior they both had MJ. But not anymore....LeBron is stat padding his way to fooling people like this into thinking he is still elite and that was the kicker for them to push MJ off his throne. If that isn't credibility destroying I don't know what is...
A year ago these guys had MJ as the GOAT. Now 'but muh longevity' puts LeBron ahead? What kind of insane nonsense is that? What someone does as a 40 year old WILL NEVER DEFINE THEIR GREATNESS. Besides, what the hell has he achieved in all those stat padding seasons? Do you know the last time Lebron won an MVP? 28 years of age. Do you know the last time he made an All Defense team? 29 years of age. From age 30 to now he has two rings, two Finals MVPs, one assist title and five 1st Team All NBA nominations. He's led the league in a box score or advanced metric just _twice_ in all those years. From age 30 to his retirement Jordan won four rings, four Finals MVPs, two MVPs, four 1st Team All NBA, four 1st Team All Defense & four scoring titles. He led the league in a box score or advanced metric 29 times. To summarise, from age 30: LeBron - 10 x major accolades 2 x statistical leader Jordan - 22 x major accolades 29 x statistical leader Stat padding does not equate to greatness....winning does.
Obvioulsy your joking but I wouldn't use that player to make a point like that. You want to use someone like Brian Scalabrine or some bench warming chump who never achieved anything basketball related, NBA or not. Take a look at Andrew Gaze's NBL stats. Bro was averaging 40+ points per game in multiple seasons, was putting up 10 threes a game IN THE 1980s! He was Steph Curry before Steph Curry could even walk. He had 16 consecutive seasons in the NBL averaging 30ppg, peaking at 44ppg. He also took his college team to the final, losing by a single point in OT. The reason he wasn't successful in the NBA was because of his size and defensive weaknesses. As a scorer he could do it with the best of them, being one of the all time leading scorers in Olympic history, often having great scoring games against the US Dream Team. He was simply born in the wrong era. If he was born in this era he would be killing it in the NBA.
Jokic outside top 10 is negligible. We all know his ‘limitation’ defensively but yet he can’t afford to get fouled out because his team has ALWAYS depended on him. And their bench is AWFUL still for years! No other superstars ever!
@@SubversiveShekelMerchant Longevity means absolutely SQUAT if you aren't achieving much in that time. Do you know the last time Lebron won an MVP? 28 years of age. Do you know the last time he made an All Defense team? 29 years of age. From age 30 to now he has two rings, two Finals MVPs, one assist title and five 1st Team All NBA nominations. He's led the league in a box score or advanced metric just _twice_ in all those years. From age 30 to his retirement Jordan won four rings, four Finals MVPs, two MVPs, four 1st Team All NBA, four 1st Team All Defense & four scoring titles. He led the league in a box score or advanced metric 29 times. To summarise, from age 30: LeBron - 10 x major accolades 2 x statistical leader Jordan - 22 x major accolades 29 x statistical leader Bro, it aint even close...
Just an FYI, the 2000s were not a great defensive era. That’s a mistaken belief that is far too common. What it actually was was that the talent level of the NBA was very low, relative to other eras. The pace was also low. There are certainly some great individual defenses in that era, but there was absolutely nothing about the 2000s that was inherently better from a defensive perspective. Really, it was one of the weakest eras in NBA history, as a whole. Don’t believe me? Go look at some of the guys who made all star teams…
The defense isn't even my issue with that era. It was all the players that wanted to be like Mike and were taking long 2's and some of the most difficult shots They criticize this era but that era was worse because they weren't even making the shots
@@Christopher._MJordan popularized deadball league wide for perimeter players, they conveniently add zone rules after he retires, lessening the effectiveness of isolation and 1v1 play. Jordan had a clear lane to the basket if he beat his initial man cause the weakside low man/center wasn’t allowed to early rotate to the strong side to cut off drives. They could only start to rotate over once Jordan started his attempt at the basket. In Kobe’s era the weakside low man/center could early rotate to the strong side and overload the strong side, sitting in driving lanes to force long jumpers with decent at best spacing as a counter. Nothing supports the 90s being a better defensive era than the 00s and not mentioning Kobe in an all time peaks video is blasphemy when he’s a better ceiling raiser/more scalable (fits with more players) player than LeBron lmao. Jordan could also make easier reads as a playmaker under illegal d cause the windows were open for longer and he knew where the help was coming from basically every single time.
Bird & Magic: Magic is a much better and more consistent playoff player than Bird, Magic has the best supporting cast of all time, Bird's early 1980s ability is great but not that great yet, Bird's 1981 Eastern final 1-3 comeback was one of the most incredible comebacks in NBA history
NOT EVEN CLOSE IN AN ALL TIME DRAFT 1987 MAGIC IS THE #1 PICK : WALTON SPANKED JABBAR IN THE MIDDLE OF HIS PRIME? AND KAREEM A TOP GENERATIONAL PEAK? : a priori : 🙏 🏀 :
Btw, the Celtics in Russell's era, were always a below average offense except for only one year. Another fun fact: 1964 Celtics were by far the worst offence in that year, and their net rating is No.1, imaging how dominant their defense was...
I’m gonna be that guy. Russell was laughably limited, that entire era is. I do not care if he held teams to 0 ppg, I watched the tape and being Andre Drummond in 1960 does not make your peak a top 10 peak or you a top 10 player. I respect what he did for the game and as far as influence he is probs top 5, but we cannot continue to hype up Russell and Wilt and act as if it doesnt matter that if we sent the 300th best player today back in that era he would COOK and probably win 15 rings. Imagine Jokic playing Russell, he would literally make bro retire. Jokic would make 3 jump shots and Russell would think there are magnets in the ball, gtf out of here
Stop comparing KG to Duncan. KG is better almost in every aspect. Never had the team, coach or front office Duncan had. Similar numbers as well. In a better situation KG clears
KG has never had a team as solid as Duncan’s worst team. It’s sad to see KG get undervalued due to team based success. Idk how duncan gets the nod over a player like KG if it’s not just accolades. Watch the game
This video isn’t about longevity. And if you bring longevity into it, what’s more impressive? Lebron in his 30’s: 2 Championships, 2 Finals MVPs, 5 All NBA 1st Teams, 1 Assist Title, 0 Season MVPs, 0 All Defensive Teams, 0 60-win seasons, 2-3 Finals Record. Jordan in his 30s: 4 Championships, 4 Finals MVPs, 4 All NBA 1st Teams, 4 Scoring Titles, 4 All Defensive 1st Teams, 2 Season MVPs, 1 Steals Title, 3 60-win teams, 4-0 Finals, and 1 3-peat.
LeBrons is just as high. You just gotta look a little deeper instead of just seeing 6-0 and 10x scoring champ I have LeBron as the GOAT but I agree Jordan’s peak was higher, however they are much closer than you are led to believe
@@DisGuyLolz What peak window are we talking about? 1 year, 3 year, 5 year, 10 years? Because if so, it’s Jordan - and it isn’t very close if we’re being honest. ✌️
You can, that's the reason he isn't the greatest of all time He definitely is one of the greatest If he was a great defender he would actually be in that MJ conversation.
One thing I disagree with Carson: 2014 Lebron's defense was not good at all, 2012-13 is much better than 2014. 2014 Lebron's DEPM is his second worst in his career(44), only better than his rookie season. And his team defense is worse when Lebron is on the floor
That LeBron was a pretty bad regular season LeBron. Many people thought he was past his prime that season and that's why the steroids rumours grew after he suddenly turned it around. Maybe he was playing through an injury. I'm not sure but it was clear that he wasn't playing seriously. Definitely the worse version of lebron in the regular season from 2006-2020
@@Christopher._MI’m a clevelander and life long Cavs fan and it’s was the WEIRDEST shit….like every 2 games he just couldn’t dribble 😂 me and my college rooomates would sit there and be like “damn it’s a Bron can’t dribble game”😂 that whole year!
@@BlindSwami_ Kobe puts 2 on the ball as a play initiator basically everytime cause he’s going to beat the initial defender with his 1st step (it’s only a bad thing when kobe worked for his athleticism and nobody else. Ja jumping over tires, etc) and get to the basket which lets his teammates play with an advantage as a result. 4 on 3. See how you can’t respond but I could keep going for days…Jordan was an illegal d merchant who could clear a side and play 1v1 and the weakside low man couldn’t early rotate to the strong side to cut off driving angles cause it was against the rules. If he beat his initial defender he was going all the way to the basket. How does stuff like this get ignored even if it’s relative to era lmao.
It always comes down to Jabbar and James Harden. The two greatest players in the history of the NBA and the history of sports. Period. And LeBron loses way too many playoff games and there’s way too much of a drop off in playoff numbers. How many all stars did he play with? You two are dumb.
Jokic outside the top 10 is kind of wild.
Wow. Didn’t expect Daniel “Boobie” Gibson to make it in the top 4, but hard to disagree!
Yeah wasn’t expecting that one at all
Bird’s peak is honestly wild… just look at where he finished in MVP voting by year in his first 8 years…
1980 - 4th
1981 - 2nd
1982 - 2nd
1983 - 2nd
1984 - MVP
1985 - MVP
1986 - MVP
1987 - 3rd
1988 - 2nd
Y'all gotta stop using MVP voting and voting awards for ranking players
@@spacecolon7760 but it shows how dominate they were compared to their competition at that time
@@kelvinlee7351 sure but like when a player or coach or gm is describing a player they aren’t gonna be listing MVP votes
@@spacecolon7760 Yea but we're talking about historic rankings. MVP and MVP votes are very relevant, along with all-nbas, championships, all-stars, etc.
@@spacecolon7760you are correct. Kelvin is a casual fan
2:20 thankyou for the shoutout,lets get into the prehistoric peaks 🍿
ydkb i seen your delusion on tiktok
@@WavadelicOW?
Look, I’m a Celtics fan, but a significant reason they were winning the title every year was because they were playing in a league with 10-15 teams.
I mean sure, but look at it this way: winning the finals then would be the equivalent (or maybe a bit harder) of making the finals now. So the equivalent of a team making it to 11 finals in 13 years. First of all, that shows how ridiculous LeBron doing that is (10 finals in 14 years). I don’t love him and I don’t think he has much claim to the GOAT title, but he’s still bare minimum top 3 all time. Second, it shows how insane the Celtics were. I think Bill Russell is criminally underrated and Wilt is criminally overrated.
I mean sure, but if there was 30 teams and he single-handedly led them to 11 rings in 13 years, he’d be a full tier above any other player, ever. He’d be the GOAT by a bigger margin than Gretzky is in hockey. It wouldn’t be a conversation.
Wilt is CRIMINALLY. OVERRATED. Its actually crazy. It needs to become more of the norm for people to look at per36 numbers to compare eras. Much of Wilts greatness was just playing 48 minutes and being tall (obv some exaggerating) . Imagine multiplying everyone else's numbers by 1.3
Jokic and Duncan so underated...
I can't believe you guys forgot about my buddy Jake. His peak is top 5 minimum
The case for Jokic over Shaq
- Shaq was the best player on 3 title teams in a time when he had the best coach in the league (a 6 time champion), the best gm in the league (Jerry West), a top 4 player in the league as teammate (Kobe), a top supporting cast (horry, fisher etc.).
I think that you need more talent around Shaq to win a title.
- Shaq also won in a time when the cba didn't allow other teams to build rosters to dethrone the champs like today. Therefore if a team had better superstar, role players, market and coach, thd rest of the league couldn't really compete.
- If you drafted Jokic or Shaq in a vacuum I think that if you have Jokic your team goes further most of the time unless you have better conditions for Shaq.
- shaq was a good but overrated defender in an era where big men could not get abused in pick n roll like today. Although a better shot blocker, I don't think he is above Jokic defensively in totality. Shaq in facf was picked on defense routinely and never wanted to guard anyone in space (watch the Pistons-Lakers tape).
-in leadership, clutchness and culture building Jokic wins by a mile.
I am not convinced that Shaq brings your franchise a title unless he has all these benefits.
- Jokic has never underachied in the playoffs when he had equal or more talent than his opponents. Prime Shaq was beaten and ouplayed by Karl Malone and young Duncan when he was in his prime.
Stat nerd u fool ask any nba player who start tram with shaq not close. Joker have no centers go against so look good imagine hakeem,robinson,ewing,mourning. Shaq had more deal with
Interesting argument but shaq was better than joker and it’s not really close. It’s the fact he was an amazing two way player and the only thing joker does better is passing and shooting
@danielbattle7620
Scoring tie
Rebounding tie (I lean jokic)
Shooting jokic
Playmaking Jokic
Basketball iq Jokic
Clutchness jokic
Floor raising jokic
Leadership jokic
Defense rim Shaq
Pick n roll defense i lean Jokic
Jokic has no comp
Jokic has no equal
His legacy as a top-15 player is cemented, even if Denver doesn't win another chip
Fanboy
The comp is Jabar. He was every bit as dominant, relative to his competition, individually in his prime, but also only got the 1 title during that timeframe due to a limited roster around him. Maybe Jokic will get another (or more than one), but as of now, it’s actually a really good comp.
Talking about Duncan's prime, before 2007, he is a consistently top 5 player in the league. After 2007, he is a consistent top 20 player in the league.
Btw, in the players we mentioned this video, Duncan's supporting cast is only better than Jokic, Jordan, and Garnett, and they won 5 titles. Another argument of his greatness.
The goats talking about goats today
Ranking Wilt and Bill Russell is just unserious
My Top 5 3 year peaks in order. 1. Micheal Jordan 91-93, Unrivaled 2 way destroyer, the best scorer ever and was at his most complete when it came to athleticism and skill. Won the most and was quite frankly the most dominant player ever bar none. 2. Hot take but I’m going with Shaq 00-02 biggest monster I’ve ever seen by far with my two eyes those 3 straight finals run are just ridiculous, A complete Alien he was. 3. Lebron James 12-14 the ultimate 2 way Swiss Army knife/ Just being a blatant alien like Shaq physically skilled resistant and just more macro dominant player I’ve seen. 4. Curry 16-18 the most dangerous player ever not even a question, literally makes other teams forget how to play because of his gravity which I don’t think can be properly explained it’s just so real, and he’s just a nuclear weapon once he gets going, yes out of the 5 he’s got the lowest floor but his ceiling is just ridiculous because it’s just over once he’s got it. 5. Jokic 22-24 easily the highest floor ever dudes just a perfect player doesn’t do anything wrong, not defensively natural but he never misses reads on the defensive end. His just a savant and will climb the list over time. Mark it
Shaq: his 1999-2000 season in my opinion, is still the best individual season after merger, slightly better than 91 Jordan I think
I think Shaq's prime starts at 1997-98 season, that year his ceiling I think is higher than 98 Jordan, but Jordan's floor is stronger
How in the world does Logan not have Jokic a top 10 peak what’s the guy have to do. lol 😂
Win more chips or turn into a better rim protector tbh.
@@rorank "Win more chips"....obviously you don't understand the concept of this entire video.
@@rorank wtf are you talking about? how does he turn in a beter rim protector? please, explain
@@AVAXII Get more athletic .
Jordan and LeBron are the only two players ever to go back to back as MVP & FMVP while being All NBA 1st team and All Defensive 1st team. The greatest wing-guard and wing-forward ever. Jordan is an underrated all time playmaker during his peak and LeBron is an even more underrated all time versatile defender during his peak. I think Jordan has the gold standard peak, LeBron has the gold standard prime and Kareem has the gold standard career.
MJ is the goat for many reasons but as yall said, the guy is undeniably the greatest scorer of all time and a top 5 defensive guard of all time. That level of dominance on both ends as a GUARD is truly unprecedented🐐
where do you have lebron .thankyou
So the “undeniably the greatest scorer of all time” argument is actually interesting at this point. There are guys who score at very high levels and do so more efficiently at this point (Curry, Jokic).
That said, their scoring peaks either were are haven’t yet been as long as Jordan’s and Jordan is as far ahead of his era’s number 2 scorer as basically anyone other that Wilt (and Wilt is a complicated case).
Because of those complex dynamics, I think it’s more fair to say he’s in the top tier as a scorer with a few other guys. Then he’s also as you say, a top 5ish defender as a guard. That’s a damn strong case for being the best overall player ever.
@parthsharma6516 I have him as number 2 all time. He redefined longevity and is the most versatile player of all time. I have him behind MJ because he didn’t accomplish as much as he did in a much longer career.
@joesephrafferty6763 Agreed. Jokic and Curry are more efficient than MJ due to their superior 3 pt shooting, but each haven’t put up the totality of production from a scoring standpoint that MJ has in an era that is much more catered towards the offensive player because the defensive rule changes have lessened defensive capabilities/aggression which MJ had to face more often. The sheer amount of seasons averaging over 30 ppg and being by far the most efficient volume scorer of all time is one of the main reasons MJ has the edge as the clear number 1 scorer.
Jokic and Curry have certainly closed the gap and as for a skill by skill basis, it’s not nearly undeniable because MJ often had the gift of being the most athletic guard of all time even by today’s standards, which he could rely on very consistently. Whereas Jokic and Curry had to rely on their IQ and skills more to make up for their lack of athleticism.
@@b111xI think LeBron has accomplished so much more other than championships. He’s also a better general winner. Without Scottie pippen Michael Jordan was a bad teammate and a selfish basketball player who won one playoff series. LeBron’s global dominance regardless of circumstance is more impressive if you remove the 6-0 championship rose colored glasses.
This is pure gold. Congrats all the way from Peru! 🇵🇪❤🏀
Here’s the problem with the LeBron GOAT argument. The literal only argument for LeBron over Jordan is longevity, as you say. But… why has he been able to do this? I’d argue there are a few reasons:
1) He’s a freak. There’s no question about that. That is certainly a significant part of this, but it’s far from the only reason.
2) The difference between modern sports training, medicine and nutrition vs that of the 90s is a major, major difference. He’s not the only guy from this generation to maintain high level impact well past the time guys of Jordan’s era were cooked.
3) This is the big one: Load management. Over the last 6 full seasons, LeBron has averaged 58 games played. That’s 24 games missed per year. For context, Jordan played at least 80 games 10 of the 13 years he played in Chicago, had another year of 78 games played, and only played less than 70 twice- once due to injury and another because he had just come back from retirement. He even played 82 games his last year in Washington, at 39. Lebron also has spent long stretches of the last 10 years coasting in the regular season. Jordan never took a game off from an effort perspective.
@josephrafferty6763 and in all likely hood he is using peds, epos and trt
Of course he's using PEDs@@d.columbia9603
The only argument isn’t longevity though?
1. Better passer, facilitator and leader
2. Better rebounder
3. Comparable defender (at their peak they are even, if not LeBron is better) yes Jordan got a DPOY. That comes with context and nuance. LeBron should’ve gotten his but was taken by Gasol who was 2nd team all defense. Not to mention how the standards and voters have changed from the 90’s and now usually bigs get it because they have the most impact.
3. More versatile
4. Better 3 point shooter
5. Comparable peaks you can argue either way. And I understand you’d argue Jordan which is fair but LeBrons peak was also amazing
6. Of course longevity and all the amount of accolades and sustained success and excellence he’s had.
I did want to contribute a little to your points. On the modern medicine/ training thing. Yes it helps but it depends if the player actually wants to work hard and LeBron has the mindset and constantly puts a lot of money and training into maintaining his body.
Load management is fair but I don’t think it is as much of a knock as you think it is
@@DisGuyLolz
Better rebounder? 😅🤣😂
You must be one of those fools who thinks uncontested defensive rebound stat padding makes someone a great rebounder. Jordan was a WAY better offensive rebounder....the true indicator of a good rebounder. If you want to look at someone's rebounding prowess, look at their defensive to offensive rebounding ratio. The higher it is, the less impressive their rebounding numbers. Anything under 3 is pretty damn good. Under two is absolutely elite.
Jordan's career he was at 2.9.
Dennis Rodman, widely considered the greatest rebounder of all time was at 1.75.
Westbrook, known defensive rebound padder, is at 3.4. Though his reputation as a rebound padder was garnered during his triple double days when he was at 5.1.
LeBron's career is at 5.3. This season alone he is at 7.2.
LeBron ranks outside the top 100 all time in terms of rebounders at his position.
Jordan ranks in the top ten.
So no, LeBron is NOT a better rebounder, get that idiotic notion out of your jock sniffing mind.
DPOY? No, LeBron should not have beaten Gasol. He was clearly better in every respect and his rebound stats were way better.
Better three point shooter? They have the exact same three point percentage in the playoffs.
And this one is a doozie....
"longevity and all the amount of *accolades* and sustained success and excellence he’s had."
I can't stop laughing at thie ridiculousness of this comment. Like, it just reeks of naivety and lack of basketball knowledge.
LeBron is in his 22nd season. He has so far collected 65 *official* NBA accolades.
In 13 full seasons, Jordan collected 70. In just 11 full seasons with the Bulls he collected 68.
HE HAD MORE ACCOLADES IN HALF AS MANY SEASONS!
Are you starting to see how idiotic that comment was? I should hope so.
But further....
Jordan has 18 of the big four acolades (rings, MVP, FMVP, DPOY).
LeBron has 12.
Jordan was named first team All NBA or All Defense a combined 19 times.
LeBron has been 1st team a combined 18 times.
Man, the delusion of LeBron stans never ceases to amaze...😅🤣😂
09-10/12-14/16-18 LeBron
88-93 MJ
-
93-95 Hakeem
18-22 Giannis (If he didn't get injured in the playoffs, 23-24 would likely be included)
-
05-07/09-10 Wade
21-24 Jokić
95-03 Shaq
77-80 Kareem
-
12-14/16-19/21 KD
17/19-21 Whi
Hm. 15-19/21 Steph, 15-20 AD, 98-07 Duncan
Damn, I forgot Wilt, he's at least 7th.
Giannis at his best rn
I think 2012-14 Lebron is better than 2016-18, my argument is, if it is 2012 Lebron, 2016 Cavs will not go down 1-3 to the Warriors. Game 1-4 Lebron was not good in that final, he was struggle at 3-10 ft range around the basket. 2012-14 Lebron will not look like that
Yall need a tier list or like a list on screen so I can see it. I understand it’s in a podcast format but I’m not trying to listen for 2 hours to see your guys final list
Russell was not just a great blocker or rebounder. He would rebound or block the ball with intent. It would land in his teammates’ hands. The best defensive plays were transmuted into offensive plays.
The question isn't wethere jokic is a good defender but can you BUILD a great defense around him, which you can. Denver has had historicaly bad luck with its supporting roster
2018 playoff LeBron is the highest peak ever. Going into that playoff run people consistently picked against the Cavs every single round. Lebron single handily wills his way to the finals with the most absurd display of shot making and clutch play we’ve ever seen. Jordan gets glazed for beating Stockton and Malone who were playoff chokers. Gary Payton, Reggie miller who’s not even better than jimmy butler, Ewing who always had playoff questions. Beating drexler is like beating Tatum. Magic and a bum lakers squad. . Lebron had to face Steph kd Klay draymond on the same team, Parker ginobili Duncan kawhi on the same team, rondo Allen pierce Garnett on the same team, Durant Westbrook harden on the same team. Played against jokic in the playoffs 3 times. Not to mention Paul George Dwight Howard, jimmy butler, dame, dirk, booker, derozan.
"Jordan gets glazed for beating Stockton and Malone who were playoff chokers"
The hypocrisy of this LeBron jock sniffer is out of control.
Who the hell did the Cavs beat before facing those Warriors in the Finals?
The Pacers in the first round. With Victor Oladipo as their best player.
The Raptors in the second round. Now if you want to call players playoff chokers, the first two that should come to mind are DeMar DeRozan and Kyle Lowry. Especially during their Raptors days. Those two were MASSIVE playoff chokers. At least Stockton and Malone made consecutive NBA Finals. Also, Kevin Love came to play that series, averaging 20/10. LeBron, as usual, had a lot of help.
The Celtics in the Conference Finals. And despite the Celtics being *led by a rookie* the series still went to seven games LOL
And of course they then got swept in the Finals.
@ Kevin love was injured half that playoff run and was terrible defensively. Everyone in the media picked against the Cavs every series so GTFO. Playing against Stockton and Malone is the modern day equivalent of playing against embiid and harden
One thing about Jordan, before 1989-90 season, I think he is still not that good at balancing scoring and passing. His 1989 game 5 vs Pistons was a clear example: Since Doug Collins was criticizing him after Game 4 for not getting teammates involved, Jordan only took 8 shots in Game 5, went to another extreme
Btw, Jordan got absolutley stolen by Magic in 1990, and Malone in 1997, he should at least got two more MVPs
I would LOVE to see Carson’s letterboxd
Not having 08-10 Kobe on this list is criminal
I saw that kobe and it wasn't even his peak.
His peak was during 2005-2007
They were just wasted with the bad teams
By 2008-2010 he was a way lesser defender and finisher around the rim.
It was peak shot making Kobe with team basketball but the best version of Kobe was before that
@Christopher._M I don't necessarily disagree with that... 08-10 Kobe was still insane and had the winning to go along with it
nah
Kareem miss 20 games in 1978 because of fighting with Kent Benson, I think he broke his hands at that fight. Little surprise of Kareem and Hakeem's ranking.
My retention on this is wild
Kobe isn’t even an honorable mention? Just wow. Hurts their credibility.
Meh, not really
They have LeBron as the GOAT for basically being really good at 40yo. The year prior they both had MJ. But not anymore....LeBron is stat padding his way to fooling people like this into thinking he is still elite and that was the kicker for them to push MJ off his throne.
If that isn't credibility destroying I don't know what is...
Great job guys. Zivela Srbija i Jokic.
A year ago these guys had MJ as the GOAT. Now 'but muh longevity' puts LeBron ahead?
What kind of insane nonsense is that? What someone does as a 40 year old WILL NEVER DEFINE THEIR GREATNESS.
Besides, what the hell has he achieved in all those stat padding seasons?
Do you know the last time Lebron won an MVP? 28 years of age.
Do you know the last time he made an All Defense team? 29 years of age.
From age 30 to now he has two rings, two Finals MVPs, one assist title and five 1st Team All NBA nominations. He's led the league in a box score or advanced metric just _twice_ in all those years.
From age 30 to his retirement Jordan won four rings, four Finals MVPs, two MVPs, four 1st Team All NBA, four 1st Team All Defense & four scoring titles. He led the league in a box score or advanced metric 29 times.
To summarise, from age 30:
LeBron -
10 x major accolades
2 x statistical leader
Jordan -
22 x major accolades
29 x statistical leader
Stat padding does not equate to greatness....winning does.
Interesting to see Andrew Gaze at Logan’s one spot and Carson’s 3. I knew he was a consensus top 10 but feel like that might be high
Obvioulsy your joking but I wouldn't use that player to make a point like that. You want to use someone like Brian Scalabrine or some bench warming chump who never achieved anything basketball related, NBA or not.
Take a look at Andrew Gaze's NBL stats. Bro was averaging 40+ points per game in multiple seasons, was putting up 10 threes a game IN THE 1980s! He was Steph Curry before Steph Curry could even walk.
He had 16 consecutive seasons in the NBL averaging 30ppg, peaking at 44ppg.
He also took his college team to the final, losing by a single point in OT.
The reason he wasn't successful in the NBA was because of his size and defensive weaknesses. As a scorer he could do it with the best of them, being one of the all time leading scorers in Olympic history, often having great scoring games against the US Dream Team.
He was simply born in the wrong era. If he was born in this era he would be killing it in the NBA.
Jokic outside top 10 is negligible. We all know his ‘limitation’ defensively but yet he can’t afford to get fouled out because his team has ALWAYS depended on him. And their bench is AWFUL still for years! No other superstars ever!
LFG Nuggets family!!
I can care less about the 7plus years of stat padding. Gimme the 6 for 6 and the accolades. If rather have mjs career in a heart beat.
You sound so mad
@WellOkIGuessYouGotMe Nope, it's something I'd rather have. It's only logical. You sound perplexed.
@@SubversiveShekelMerchant
Longevity means absolutely SQUAT if you aren't achieving much in that time.
Do you know the last time Lebron won an MVP? 28 years of age.
Do you know the last time he made an All Defense team? 29 years of age.
From age 30 to now he has two rings, two Finals MVPs, one assist title and five 1st Team All NBA nominations. He's led the league in a box score or advanced metric just _twice_ in all those years.
From age 30 to his retirement Jordan won four rings, four Finals MVPs, two MVPs, four 1st Team All NBA, four 1st Team All Defense & four scoring titles. He led the league in a box score or advanced metric 29 times.
To summarise, from age 30:
LeBron -
10 x major accolades
2 x statistical leader
Jordan -
22 x major accolades
29 x statistical leader
Bro, it aint even close...
Just an FYI, the 2000s were not a great defensive era. That’s a mistaken belief that is far too common. What it actually was was that the talent level of the NBA was very low, relative to other eras. The pace was also low. There are certainly some great individual defenses in that era, but there was absolutely nothing about the 2000s that was inherently better from a defensive perspective.
Really, it was one of the weakest eras in NBA history, as a whole. Don’t believe me? Go look at some of the guys who made all star teams…
The defense isn't even my issue with that era. It was all the players that wanted to be like Mike and were taking long 2's and some of the most difficult shots
They criticize this era but that era was worse because they weren't even making the shots
@@Christopher._MJordan popularized deadball league wide for perimeter players, they conveniently add zone rules after he retires, lessening the effectiveness of isolation and 1v1 play. Jordan had a clear lane to the basket if he beat his initial man cause the weakside low man/center wasn’t allowed to early rotate to the strong side to cut off drives. They could only start to rotate over once Jordan started his attempt at the basket. In Kobe’s era the weakside low man/center could early rotate to the strong side and overload the strong side, sitting in driving lanes to force long jumpers with decent at best spacing as a counter. Nothing supports the 90s being a better defensive era than the 00s and not mentioning Kobe in an all time peaks video is blasphemy when he’s a better ceiling raiser/more scalable (fits with more players) player than LeBron lmao. Jordan could also make easier reads as a playmaker under illegal d cause the windows were open for longer and he knew where the help was coming from basically every single time.
Bird & Magic: Magic is a much better and more consistent playoff player than Bird, Magic has the best supporting cast of all time, Bird's early 1980s ability is great but not that great yet, Bird's 1981 Eastern final 1-3 comeback was one of the most incredible comebacks in NBA history
Is 67 Wilt the best season of all time? How many MVPs did Russell steal from Wilt?
Logan, your shoulders and neck seems tilt towards right too much, unbalanced body position may hurt you, hope you are careful about that.
NOT EVEN CLOSE
IN AN ALL TIME DRAFT
1987 MAGIC IS THE #1 PICK
:
WALTON SPANKED JABBAR
IN THE MIDDLE OF HIS PRIME?
AND KAREEM A TOP GENERATIONAL PEAK?
:
a priori
:
🙏 🏀
:
Great video. All nitpicking but I think you have Larry legend too low. 3 mvps and 2 titles
The Rockets were a Chris Paul Hamstring away from beating those "unbeatable" warriors if we are being honest.
if 'if' was a fifth...
@@nevohyams The point is they are not "unbeatable"
Bill Russell, can I desribe him as a player with much better defense than Draymond Green, it's hard to imagine what that looks like right?
Btw, the Celtics in Russell's era, were always a below average offense except for only one year. Another fun fact: 1964 Celtics were by far the worst offence in that year, and their net rating is No.1, imaging how dominant their defense was...
@@glenn8886not too impresive when you take into account people were shooting
He was essentially Dennis Rodman playing against Bums...
I’m gonna be that guy. Russell was laughably limited, that entire era is. I do not care if he held teams to 0 ppg, I watched the tape and being Andre Drummond in 1960 does not make your peak a top 10 peak or you a top 10 player. I respect what he did for the game and as far as influence he is probs top 5, but we cannot continue to hype up Russell and Wilt and act as if it doesnt matter that if we sent the 300th best player today back in that era he would COOK and probably win 15 rings. Imagine Jokic playing Russell, he would literally make bro retire. Jokic would make 3 jump shots and Russell would think there are magnets in the ball, gtf out of here
If this is about peak
Stop comparing KG to Duncan. KG is better almost in every aspect. Never had the team, coach or front office Duncan had. Similar numbers as well. In a better situation KG clears
KG has never had a team as solid as Duncan’s worst team. It’s sad to see KG get undervalued due to team based success. Idk how duncan gets the nod over a player like KG if it’s not just accolades. Watch the game
Playoffs which theystole from >Kings????
Is Lebrons Peak as high as MJ? Why don't we ask if MJs longevity is as good as lebrons while we are at it. 😂
This video isn’t about longevity. And if you bring longevity into it, what’s more impressive?
Lebron in his 30’s: 2 Championships, 2 Finals MVPs, 5 All NBA 1st Teams, 1 Assist Title, 0 Season MVPs, 0 All Defensive Teams,
0 60-win seasons, 2-3 Finals Record.
Jordan in his 30s: 4 Championships, 4 Finals MVPs, 4 All NBA 1st Teams, 4 Scoring Titles,
4 All Defensive 1st Teams, 2 Season MVPs,
1 Steals Title, 3 60-win teams, 4-0 Finals, and 1 3-peat.
@rackball5858 You misunderstood the comment. I was saying obviously MJs peak is higher, just like obviously Lebrons Longevity is better.
LeBrons is just as high. You just gotta look a little deeper instead of just seeing 6-0 and 10x scoring champ
I have LeBron as the GOAT but I agree Jordan’s peak was higher, however they are much closer than you are led to believe
@DisGuyLolz im not led to believe anything. I've looked into it and MJ has better accolades and better statistics at his peak
@@DisGuyLolz What peak window are we talking about? 1 year, 3 year, 5 year, 10 years? Because if so, it’s Jordan - and it isn’t very close if we’re being honest. ✌️
This peak is the greatest peak in the history of NBA, anything other than #1 is bunch of baloney
Why does Jokic get more praise then Giannis when he arguably has just as crazy as a peak all time as anyone in history
because giannis isnt giannis against all time great defense
Because Giannis just isn’t as skilled
I guess you can be an average defender and still be one of the greatest according to Jokic fans lol
When you're one of the most impactful offensive players of all time, yea u can be one of the greatest as an average defender
You definitely can… that’s not new.
Can’t be top ten
You can, that's the reason he isn't the greatest of all time
He definitely is one of the greatest
If he was a great defender he would actually be in that MJ conversation.
Defense isn't anywhere close to as important as offense. Otherwise, we'd be arguing Bruce Bowen vs Jordan. Tell everyone how casual you are.....
Jokic is still on the rise. to talk about his peak is dum
LeBron has had the highest peak, longest prime and greatest career in the best eras of basketball. 🐐
Peak Jordan clearly fuck having a long prime when u didn’t win as much
LeBron isnt even the player of his generation.
KD destroyed him head to head.
KD was the USA Olympic MVP.
( over and over )
greatest career, despite winning less in twice the time
Bron stans are so deluded 😆😅🤣
Shaqs peak was with kobe, how to value that...
Lol no shaq 3rd yr lead league in scoring kobe wasnt in league so u dismissed
Bill Russell was great in his time but none of us watched him enough to comment on his game, especially these kids
Thumbs down! Jokic is so peak top 10!
One thing I disagree with Carson: 2014 Lebron's defense was not good at all, 2012-13 is much better than 2014. 2014 Lebron's DEPM is his second worst in his career(44), only better than his rookie season. And his team defense is worse when Lebron is on the floor
That LeBron was a pretty bad regular season LeBron.
Many people thought he was past his prime that season and that's why the steroids rumours grew after he suddenly turned it around.
Maybe he was playing through an injury. I'm not sure but it was clear that he wasn't playing seriously.
Definitely the worse version of lebron in the regular season from 2006-2020
@@Christopher._MI’m a clevelander and life long Cavs fan and it’s was the WEIRDEST shit….like every 2 games he just couldn’t dribble 😂 me and my college rooomates would sit there and be like “damn it’s a Bron can’t dribble game”😂 that whole year!
@@Christopher._M2014 was his most efficient season in his career. I think you’re mixing it up with his 2015 season
Kobe haters…
If kobe was better he would be on the list. It's nothing to do with hating
@@BlindSwami_ Kobe puts 2 on the ball as a play initiator basically everytime cause he’s going to beat the initial defender with his 1st step (it’s only a bad thing when kobe worked for his athleticism and nobody else. Ja jumping over tires, etc) and get to the basket which lets his teammates play with an advantage as a result. 4 on 3. See how you can’t respond but I could keep going for days…Jordan was an illegal d merchant who could clear a side and play 1v1 and the weakside low man couldn’t early rotate to the strong side to cut off driving angles cause it was against the rules. If he beat his initial defender he was going all the way to the basket. How does stuff like this get ignored even if it’s relative to era lmao.
Depends how you define peak. Looking at 4 to 5 years mjs peak is the best. Followed by wilt, bird, arguably shaq or lebron at 4th
Nice agenda gramps
It always comes down to Jabbar and James Harden. The two greatest players in the history of the NBA and the history of sports. Period. And LeBron loses way too many playoff games and there’s way too much of a drop off in playoff numbers. How many all stars did he play with? You two are dumb.