Tim Duncan had relatively lower quality teammates in his era compared to LBJ in any of his contention years and he won more championships and had a better winning record than LBJ. Therefore, Duncan > LBJ. LBJ is gonna drop off this list so hard once he retires and clutch sports stops paying media to talk him up.
I think you can even argue that Duncan is better than Kareem. Kareem has the stats & accolades but Duncan was the best player on more title teams than Kareem.
Agreed, Magic was second in MVP the year he announced his retirement. The notion that MJ beat an old Magic Johnson with aids is baffling to me. Those Laker teams were actually really good. Sure they lost an old Kareem, but Vlade Divac+Sam Perkins were more than legitimate replacement for an old Kareem.
Michael Jordan had a whole league shook. Straight up scared or in pure reverence. Go watch other NBA stars talk about him. That matters, boxing pundits understand this. It’s more than numbers, his presence alone made other NBA stars feel like losing was inevitable. There’s winning and then there’s breaking your competition. This concept is always overlooked or down played by analysts but competitors know there is credence to it. The guy played in 11 championships in his basketball career…NCAA, NBA, FIBA etc. 11-0 obviously the team and context matters. But still speaks to the man. Also, basketball has always been a sport that values aesthetics. Go watch full MJ games-when it comes to the eye test, the level is clearly seen.
Bird midrange: 51% Michael Jordan midrange: 49% Oscar Robertson midrange: 49% Steph Curry midrange: 47% Dirk midrange: 47% KD midrange: 45% Bird is the best midrange shooter of all time
These ranking videos were a lot of fun to watch, this would be the ranking if your lists were combined 1. Michael Jordan 2. LeBron James 3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar 4. Magic Johnson 5. Tim Duncan 6. Larry Bird 7. Shaquille O'Neal 8. Bill Russell 9. Wilt Chamberlain 10. Hakeem Olajuwon 11. Steph Curry 12. Kobe Bryant 13. Jerry West 14. Kevin Durant 15. Kevin Garnett 16. Julius Erving 17. Oscar Robertson 18. Dirk Nowitzki 19. Nikola Jokic 20. Moses Malone 21. Giannis Antetokounmpo 22. Elgin Baylor 23. Kawhi Leonard 24. Chris Paul 25. Charles Barkley 26. Karl Malone 27. Jason Kidd 28. Dwyane Wade 29. John Havlicek
I can’t see Jordan ever losing to Jason Terry and JJ Barea the fact that they trash talked Lebron and he didn’t respond appropriately tells me all I need to know The eye test on the biggest stage is proof enough
@@AlessandroZanebeing stronger doesn’t equate to skill that’s why Kyrie and Steph are transcendent because of skill. The fact that Lebron doesn’t have a go to move is damming
Great discussion as always. I don't dispute Kareem being at #3 as an all time NBA player but I think he indisputably had the greatest basketball career ever and I'd argue because of that he's the greatest hooper ever. His pro career was obviously legendary but his UCLA college career as the greatest player with the greatest college dynasty ever--very comparable to the Celtics in the NBA--takes him without question above Jordan or LBJ. He won 3 NCAA championships as the greatest college player ever and didn't win a fourth because freshmen weren't allowed to play varsity in those days. So 9 championships shojuld have been 10. Russell got 13 with his 2 USF college titles but no one believes Russell was better than Kareem.
Good post. What goes against Kareem is that many feel that the 80s Showtime Lakers success started with Magic. He didn’t have success in a Lakers jersey in the 4 years before Magic entered the league. - He also won 1 Finals MVP of the 5 rings won with the Lakers. -Honestly, within a few weeks into his rookie season, I think nearly everyone viewed Jordan as the best singular player in the league. Just watching early interviews with Bird & Magic, they were truly mystified & astonished by Jordan. - I do, believe however, that comparing guards or forwards with Centers is a tough task.
Yeah, I remember when Jordan came in. I don't think people thought he was the best player but without a doubt the most talented. Almost unheard of for a rookie. The Bulls didn't win until 91 but were already scary during much of the 80's. As a Lakers fan in those days I hated to see the Bulls on the schedule.@@rackball5858
Isn’t longevity based on era? Less fouls, less play time, better medicine, and play style. Can we agree that the best of all time or goat debates are what ifs? Jordan didn’t play Lebron in his prime. We will never see that. We are making calculated assumptions of what would happen in those scenarios based on statistics and the eye test. So with that said, what would happen if a player today, played in the 80’s? Also consider the Bball rules, medicine, game rules and technology. Would longevity still be as long? How would Jordan play now with the era advantages?
Whenever we talk about eras, I want people to acknowledge how much more OVERALLY bigger, faster, stronger, talented players are today. Yes you can say if players back then got the same training, medicine, facilities as people do today, it might be similar, but they didn't. 1-15 players are so talented in todays game, and you can't just be a tall guy anymore on the court.
Also the rule changes matter just as much. Illegal defense rules forced one on one play resulting in 90s teams scheming their placement above the foul line allowing their stars 1v1 matchups on the block. The rule was so extreme that if 90s teams actually used modern spacing principles they could actually place every player above the 3 line and every player would have gravity regardless of shooting ability….instead the Bulls and Jazz went as high as the foul line.
Bill russell playing anywhere from the 90s to now would be mix of a andre dummond offensively and dennis rodman defensively type player. Doesnt deserve to be top 5 guy couldnt touch 20 ppg. Wilt would dominate in any era.
Good list on the whole. I think Hakeem could be higher still, those chips were insane achievements considering who he had to get through and who he had, and he didnt play in an era when the game was completely different like Russell and Wilt. Iirc by some metrics like opponents' games won in the regular season the 95 chip might be one of the most difficult ever
I think you got to add the “complete game factor” when you do these break downs. You have one guy being a great facilitator as well as dominating downhill force penetrator. Then you have a guy with no weaknesses in terms of inside out, on off ball, facilitate iso offensively and defensively. I base my goat primarily with this in mind. Great show guys.🔥🔥🔥
@@donjuandemarco4529 Born a raised a Bulls fan and seen Jordan’s whole career. That said, I am able to be objective and I don’t have LeBron in the top 5. JMO
Even though I completely disagree with nearly the entirety of both your lists it was still an entertaining set of videos to watch. It's wild how different people value fundamentally different things in this conversation.
If Tim Duncan had trash teams and was still able to accomplish everything he did, I think it's pretty safe to say he'd be considered a top 3 player all time. No question. He was next level.
Tim Duncan did not have trash teams. The man got drafted onto a playoff team. David Robinson injury was the biggest blessing in disguise for the Spurs to get Duncan.
@@Landonio But did you not realize you ended the statement with "he was next level" confirming that you to believe what you just said. Nice try though almost got out of it.
Evaluating an individual player on team success seems like the worst "most important criteria". Especially if Russell doesn't then end up in the Top 5.
Great great work young fellas. So good to see some objectiveness from the next generation. The cop out of calling MJ over LeBron guys old heads and Stans of an era, is so ridiculous. You guys broke it down nearly perfect. Only thing I would add to further enhance the separation of MJ and everyone else is more on the macro side. When By MJs third year, it was a consensus, whether you were a young basketball fan, or an old Russell and Chamberlain guy, that you were watching the greatest basketball player youd ever seen. And the consensus was almost amongst the media and the players as well. Women's and children knew. There were no questions. It was like the human gnosis understood, ok, the basketball gods have sent us their only son for our viewing pleasure. The second is the sheer efficiency. 3rd place in the all the time scoring list in just 13 full years as shooting guard not shooting any threes?!?! That's insane man. Really think about it. It took LeBron, the most gifted basketball player since MJ, 17 years to pass him. His fundamentals were just as spectacular as is flashiness. It's just the perfect storm. Black Jesus. There can only be one.
Imagine kids having a discussion about Top NBA players in history and not being alive when they played. Anyone can shoot off stats of players but there's so much more that goes into a players greatness than just stats. This conversation is like blind people talking about their favorite color.
*i know we're not supposed to pit players against other eras but i think 2001 Shaq would absolutely OBLITERATE Bill Russell and Kareem 1 on 1. in good conscience, i can't put any of them above Shaq, it just doesn't feel right.*
We will never know how great Wilt or Bill were compared to todays players. They were so much more dominant than the rest of the era. If they had been any more dominant people would have accused them of cheating. I think thats why Wilt never fouled out.
The truth is that it is not only about dominance within an era, otherwise Bill would indisputably be #1. Whether we think they could dominate today or in other eras is also taken into account, it just depends how much. And for me it does matter, Im not having the likes of Russell in the top ten let alone five if his game wouldnt translate. It would be like saying Bruce Lee is the greatest fighter of all time when he would get cooked by any top 10 ufc featherweight today. Imo if they wanted to keep the old heads relevant they shouldnt have introduced the three point line and made the game as different as it is today
Great series Guys! I was just wondering, who has a potential to move up in upcoming years. There are not many current players on the board. I do not think that LBJ will go up. Is it only Jokic and Giannis that can move up to top 10-15 in upcoming years? Where do you put a ceiling on Jokic’s place on the list?
Steph and KD potentially but it would need another great finals run imo. Kawhi I think winning another Chip would put him undisputed top 25. Jokic and Giannis def can go up with another deep playoff run and they will prob both be top 3 in mvp voting again. Idk if any current player outside of top 25 can get there at this point. The older guys like Harden, CP3 wont be #1's anymore so even a ring wouldnt change much. I think Tatum, Luka and Embiid would be closing in with another great year and a ring but not top 25.
my man said i look at peak 2 way player that plays both side longevity and than puts kobe at 12 lmfao a joke kids that havent even seen him play just looked at stats
The problem is that Kobe didn't peak offensively and defensively at the same time. Kobe peak defensively in the early 2000s but offensively in peak in 2006-10. He never brought it all together.
The disrespect on Kobe Bryant’s ranking is absurd!! Mike and Kobe are the same player but Kobe is ranked 11 & 12?? Please!! You guys clearly wasn’t watching basketball when Kobe played.
My question is they say peak over longevity.. but Lebron arguably has the LONGEST peak in NBA History.. from 2011-20 Lebron was an MVP candidate level player every single year.. thats a decade of a peak.. being the most all around player in NBA History.. who else can we say that about?
Jordan’s peak lasted from 88-98 as the best 2-way player in the game. Lebron has not been considered a great defender since 2014. It’s been spotty since then.
@@rackball5858 heres the problem.. no one talks about any year before 91.. also in that frame he didnt play in 94 and played part of 95.. thats 4 1/2 years in that time frame.. when u hear Jordan its always “6 for 6” u heard them, he never played bad on the biggest stage, but in his peak he also took almost 2 years off in a contact sport
Exactly Jordan didn't have the longevity of Lebron, but he had the higher peak so rating Jordan over Lebron is them following through on peak over longevity.
@@JayDaMan420In this video, they don’t talk about Jordan 87 88 89 or 90. But if you witnessed it live or researched , you know that a few of those seasons are considered historically as the best in history. Before Jordan even won a ring, guys like Auerbach were calling him a top 10 player of all time. By 93, he was the consensus best ever. And coming back out of retirement in any sport has never been considered “easy” or sustainable. Really, only Muhammad Ali had a successful sports career after coming out of retirement. Most comebacks resulted in failure. Honestly, I’m not sure many people expected Jordan to play 3 straight 82 game seasons at 33-35 year old & 3-peat while clearly being head & shoulders better than the #2 guy.
@@rackball5858 trust me i know about those seasons.. and they are great.. but when have u ever heard in an argument vs Lebron about any year in the 80s? Never.. cuz the argument leans heavily on 6-0.. they dont wanna talk about the struggle in 89.. nor do they wanna mention he couldnt finish the pistons in game 7 as the best player in the world.. not saying that those seasons werent great but those seasons are ignored while we highlight lebron losing in the finals.. by no means am I personally taking out Jordans greatness before he won a ring
The arguments for Lebron...NO! They simply don't work. Better yet, they ONLY work in this era of excuse-making (it seems solely for propping up Lebron) and participation trophies! 1. Making the finals as much as he did: So what? His conference was the weakest it probably has ever been during that stretch. Lebron could afford to cruise to the finals for years but then when he finally met real competition he either folded or got crushed by better teams. 2. The fact that he lost to the superior Warriors is not an excuse. HE LOST! Just as the Warriors had an advantage with their fire power with the trio KD-Steph-Klay, the Heat had their advantages in their conference and should have even had that in the finals against the Mavericks and the Spurs with Lebron-Wade-Bosh. So if he is getting brownie points for losing against a superior Warriors team, it should actually work against him going against to much weaker teams in his own conference and losing in the finals while being the huge favorite against the Mavericks. Making the finals means nothing if you don’t win it! As the Bulls used to say: IT DON’T MEAN A THING WITHOUT THE RING! 3. His scoring: Scoring is inflated in this era. The number of players that have 30pt games in this era is ridiculous and tells us that scoring isn’t difficult in today’s NBA. He may be pushing 40, but in an era where simply looking at someone is enough for the ref to call a foul that is hardly an impressive feat. 4. His longevity is incredible, but a bit overblown. He has played in 80 regular season games only twice in his career and in all 82 games only once. That’s some load management for you there, plus, again, in an era where you can’t be touched without being fouled. And did I mention Lebron isn’t playing defense for years now? You compared him to Michael Jordan, who has played in 80 games 11 seasons and in all 82 games 9 times, including in his last season after recovering from knee surgery at the age of 40! AND playing both sides of the court. Again, his longevity is great, but let’s not overdo it. 5. Lebron being a “pass-first” player. This is the media-driven narrative while the numbers speak very differently. If Lebron is really a pass-first player, how come he only has a 7.3 assist average? How come, if he “pass first and shoot second”, he has a higher FGA (Field Goal Attempt) per game than Kobe Bryant? Lebron has 22 FGA per game and Kobe has 20.4 FGA a game. No one in their right mind would call Kobe a “pass-first” player, yet why do people call Lebron that when he has more FGA’s per game than Kobe? Fact of the matter is that the numbers tell us a complete different stories: Lebron is a shoot first player that likes to pass the ball, especially in clutch situations. The fact that he is the all time scorer is to be commended and no surprise if you play this long. Lebron has team-hopped, handpicked his team mates and played with many stars and great players during his career trying to tip the scales in his favor to win championships and failed multiple times when the light shined the brightest and the stakes were highest. Unlike Jordan, who stuck to the Bulls, when they sucked badly, never asked for any trades or harassed the GM for players to join his team, sharpened his teeth and his team mates to get to his level of competitiveness and played with just 1 All Star his entire career in Scottie Pippen and got the job done when it all mattered the most. This GOAT comparison is not close in my book.
Another GOAT debate....uggh in general. That said you did a great job without the standard Jordan worshipping. I'm so tired of it that I view the Jordan "truthers" like a deranged cult. You almosy started going there with the Jordan could have been a great playmaker....blah blah blah line, but kept it under control. So thanks for not being typical with your analysis. To me, the best way to "decide" this debate is to kind of cop out and put the 3 GOATs in the top tier. It really comes down to preference among Jordan, Kareem and LeBron. I am so grateful to have seen all 3 in their prime many many times in person. They brought so much joy with their dedication to perfecting their basketball skills. They had, respectively, the most strengths and fewest weaknesses during thier primes and utterly dominated the best athletes in the world.
@dimitrythomas4158 Who did that? Jordan was good at everything, including passing. For Jordan cultists / worshipers, that's not enough. For them, Jordan was either the best at it or if he tried he would have been the best at it. I've literally heard crazy posters say absurd stuff like if he wanted to he could have had assists like Magic, or if 3pt shooting was as popular as it is now he would have been as good or better than Steph Curry. These kinds of absurd statements make the GOAT debate no fun and it happens all time. There is / was very little (if any) difference among the tier 1 players' impact on winning. Yet Jordan cultists act like he was soo far above the other greats that it's laughable.... We are talking about mere mortals here, despite the hype.
I hate jordan fans because they discredit other greats specifically lebron to big up MJ and jordan doesn't need it. He's jordan his game and resume speaks for itself.. who cares if some people think lebron is better.. jordan fans and lebron fans to be fair treat these debates like game of thrones.. its no fun anymore
And I think mj is clearly the goat but I'm not goin to waste all this energy trying to convince other people of it I respect bron kobe Kareem magic.. I respect all the greats even if I have MJ 1
This is the main point. None of the other greats ate in the 90s because of Jordan. LeBron never had the definitive team at any time he was playing. Tim Duncan and Steph Curry did.
Lol cuz Jordan never had pippens knees breakdown and his second and third best players get their shoulder ripped out and break their kneecap. And the second and third best players in the league didn’t team up to beat Jordan either
@zain4070 LeBron had 3 other Hall of Fame players in Miami, one Hall of Famer and an All-Star In Cleveland, and another top-5 player in LA. LeBron has objectively had more help than anyone in history. Even KD and Golden State's move was just a direct response to LeBron's super-team bullshit. They just managed to one-up him.
@@jjstraka1982For a guy with “the most help in NBA history”, every single team he’s been on in his 20 year career has had a negative Net rating when he isn’t on the court. Even those Miami “superteams” were being outplayed and outscored when LeBron wasn’t on the court. The problem here is that basketball discourse just looks at names as opposed to production. “Hall of famers” don’t say much in a vacuum.
My top 5 is 5. Bill Russell 4. Magic Johnson 3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 2. Lebron James 1. Michael Jordan I think they are the #1 players of each of their eras. Russel 60's, Kareem 70's, Magic 80's, MJ 90's, Lebron 2010's. (I think 2000's are a mix of Shaq, Duncan, Kobe)
Except Jordan’s 11 year peak still outnumbers Lebron’s longevity. And it’s objective as it gets if we’re just comparing their careers from a winning, trophy, award, accolade perspective. Jordan tops everyone from the modern NBA.
When Lebron passed Jordan in March 20, 2019........he really passed him and has been lapping him every since LEBRON JAMES Career Points 32,543 Career Assists 8,606 Career Rebounds 8,844 Career Blocks 918 Field Goal Attempts 23,400 Free Throws Made 7,140 ---------------------------------------------------------- MICHAEL JORDAN Career Points 32,292 Career Assists 6,672 Career Rebounds 5,643 Career Blocks 893 Field Goal Attempts 24,537 Free Throws Made 7,327 ----------------------------------------------------------- There is also something to be said about Jordan playing with all defensive players Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman.......even Jordan's bigs were protecting the paint Jordan had continuity - stayed with Phil Jackson...and Pippen. I think it is harder to play with different teams....different coaches...different owners.....different sidekicks...and different benches........trumps peak....and gets to something else. But their is other stuff just makes LBJ case even more compelling Only player with a NBA TRIPLE QUINTUPLE (30, 10 and 10)...no other player has 27,7,7 19 TIME ALL NBA 19 seasons averaging 25 ppg Most NBA All Star Votes all time (by millions_ All time leading scorer in playoffs, regular season and all star game Most consecutive games scoring 10 ppg Led both teams in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks in NBA Finals All time playoff leader in steals and assists 4th All time in assists......and I believe he will eventually pass Chris Paul and become 3rd all time in assists Has a ton of youngest to NBA accolades and is now getting a ton of oldest to NBA accolades When someone says Chase Down Block - what player do you think of? Longevity is not a weakness.....when you great - this long -- that is GOAT stuff.
Jordan had the best team by far in the 90s. Lebrons comp was way better. That jazz team scored 54 points in the finals. illegal defense no help coming at Jordan when he’s isolating in the wing or the post. Every team he played in the finals had 1 superstar max except the jazz. If I put Lebron on Jordan’s teams they go 6-0 if I put Jordan on lebrons they’re still 4-6. He wins 2011 but doesn’t win 2016
Truthfully, I think magic and wilt could’ve been considered the greatest of all time wilt had he one more championships and magic if he could’ve continued to play, but as it stands, I’m going Michael Jordan
Was hoping for once there would be an argument for lebron as the goat but just the same old default Jordan argument. What more does the man gotta do? Saying one more 25 10 8 season will make a difference is just insane at this point lol
Consistency matters and in my opinion they lack consistency from player to player Kobe 12 time all defensive team doesnt hold any weight for him being a great defender but Lebron 19 all nba teams makes it no argument for longevity and to mention Kobe had a “much better” supporting cast with Lamar odom, Trevor Ariza, pau Gasol and bynum which is laughable btw and to not mention one teammate of Lebron from his various super teams etc etc…
I got to say the kid on the left brought up something I had never thought of before in the GOAT debate. Prime Michael Jordan prevented so many All Time Greats from winning a ring. Had he not gone on to try baseball, Hakeem would have ZERO! And Jordan would have won 8 in a row! BORING! Hakeem owes Michael a lifetime of gratitude. Meanwhile in Lebrons prime, I can name 8 different organizations that won a title. Lebron has done very little in preventing other superstars from winning a title. Dirk, Pierce, KG, Wade, Kobe, Duncan, Steph, Klay, Jokic, ABC, Leonard…They ALL ATE on Lebrons watch. There’s no debating Lebron for anything GOAT related.
As always media underrate Kobe and overrate Lebron, nothing new here. They never take context in consideration. I'm not saying Kobe should be ranked above Lebron but him at 12 and Lebron in a laughable goat conversation it's really too much to digest.
Well brother I have not listened to the full debate nor do I care too… Kobe Bryant was better than magic, bird, and Duncan. They lie to us and act like it’s easy being drafted by the lakers it’s not but yet he shined.
I’ll answer… Kobe 18 years old in the biggest market in the league with the most pressure won 5 championships. Never folded under the lights. People fail to realize he is the second coming of Jordan had he been in Jordan shoes he would have had 7-8 championships period. Stats mean nothing brother. Jordan hit a sweet spot in the NBA all be it he is great but to have Kobe outside of any top three is absurd
How many first team all defenses has Lebron made?? Off top my head I’ll say 2 or 3 compared to 10. Anyone who decides this makes sense is reaching. Lebron can’t and won’t reach Jordan
peak lebron was 2012- better defensive rating than kobe or jordan ever had, he had his mid-range, and he averaged 40% from 3. he averaged 27 points under 18 shot attempts and had a 56fg%, 2 steals per game highest in his career. his 2018 run was nuts especially since he was alone star power wise, but overall id take 2012 lebron as his absolute peak.
I'll never get the off ball argument for Jordan>LeBron, LeBron is a more capable spot up 3pt shooter (which provides more spacing than mid ranges) and trailer, as well as an active screener unlike MJ. LeBron led better postseason offenses and comparable regular seasons, MJ's "ceiling raising" never led to an offense like 17 playoff Cavs'.
Off ball? Lebron is by far one of the most ball dominant players of all time. And Lebron is not a better 3pt shooter than MJ in the playoffs and is barely leading him in 3pt shooting in the regular season. Also the year you are referring to should be 2018. 2017 Kyrie was available for the entire playoff run. 2018 was more impressive since he was more on his own, but his competition was no where near relevant until the finals. In which MJ has put up far more impressive offensive performances.
Their 3% are close and MJ is a better 3% shooter in the playoffs. Lebron is a below average 3 point shooter in his era and MJ was an average 3 point shooter in his area. So Lebron is not spacing anything with his 3.
@@b111x While LeBron is up there in regards to touches, his actual time of possession since it's been tracked isn't a outlier for a lead ball handler. LeBron provides more spacing than Jordan for the same reasons Curry provides more than other 40% 3pt shooters: volume and range. I meant what I said in regards to it being the 17 playoffs that MJ never touched, LeBron led the Cavs to an ORTG 8.1% better than the playoff average.
@@b111xThe argument you made about 2018 being more impressive is Lebron as a floor raiser though while he was arguing that Lebron is just as good of a Ceiling raiser as MJ so 2017 would be the correct year to use not 2018.
@@benjaminan1183 it is not even applicable to use off ball as an argument for either side when they are 2 ball dominant players. They are not like Curry who you brought up since he can dominate a game without the ball. All Lebron and MJ can do without the ball is set screens and go up for lobs off of cuts. If you really wanted me to nitpick, MJ could be considered the better off ball player because he has came off of cuts the same way Curry does without the ball except for MJ did it from midrange. He is the best midrange shooter of all time. And unlike your “capable” 3pt shooter argument for Lebron (which is false by the way), MJs midrange percentage is considered not just good but one of the best of all time. Compared to Lebron’s 3 point percentage which is bad. Not even solid or average. Which is why that volume, range or anything where you compare Lebron and Curry in a spacing argument is honestly crazy😂The only way Lebron provides spacing in general is with the ball in his hand and attacking the rim. Anything else revolves around a hot shooting night. MJ does both of those as well. And as for your 2018 vs 2017 comment, again, you are using a year in which he had Kyrie Irving as a teammate. Someone in which is better offensively than MJ ever played with. So it is not surprising Lebron had a higher offensive rating. Regardless, Lebron never lead his teams to a number 1 offensive rating at all. MJ did multiple times which is all that matters in terms of how dominant you were in your era and how impactful you were to your team’s offense.
I'm not with his lebron james' longevity comments at 54 minutes in, imagine how long jordan would have played if he only played 72- 73 games every year!! Jordan played 82 every year stop the longevity argument lol 😅😅
bothe are greats, but lbj carried the weakest team ever to the nba finals in 2007 against mighty spurs as the lone star, mj as the lone star wasn’t winning a thing, and 90’s was a weak era, they had no competition honestly, just playing with there food mostly!
How are the 2007 Cavs the weakest team ever when they were a #2 seed in one of the weakest conference eras in nba history? All Lebron had to do was defeat 2 41-41 teams just to get to the Pistons.
In Lebron’s first 7 seasons, he defeated 1 50+ win team in a playoff series(53 win 2007 Pistons). By contrast, in Jordan’s first 7 seasons, he & the Bulls defeated 4 50-win teams : the 57 win Cavs(89), 53 win 76ers(90), 50 win Pistons(91), & 58 win Lakers(91). - 3 of those series wins featuring Jordan came with 0 all-star help. Don’t talk about “90’s weak era” when a majority of the East from 2001 until 2019 was considered weak as shit.
@@rackball5858 Not as weak as the 90’s dude, it was weak since pistons, celtics got old and bulls take over when it was at the weakest, stop with that 50 win game stats, it will only deceive delusional casual fans that didn’t watch that weakest era of the league, it was a cakewalk in the 90’s!
@@rackball5858 you take out lbj on that team it will be an instant lottery, mj got tired and rested for a year and half they were in the eastern semi finals with pippen leading them without mj
We dont talk about kareem until we come out and say he's top 3 all time. He's not Shaq, he's not as impressive as Hakeem. He won 5 chips as the second best player, and Bird was better than magic in my estimation. I don't see how Kareem is top 3. He should've won more rings in an easier era, during his early years with Bucks. When he was at his best... 1 ring. Curry 4 rings as a top 3 player on earth. Dwade won a ring as the guy, Dirk got one. I just think Kareem at 3 is fake news. Give me Hakeem on my team. edit: some of those playoff stats you named are crazy like 26 ppg at that age I didn't know that
Kareem was not considered the Lakers 2nd best player in the 79-80 season or the 80-81 season. Him & Magic were seen as equals up until 86 when Kareem was 39 years old. - In the 80 season, he was the mvp & on his way to finals mvp until he was hurt in game 5 & Magic had a historically great Game 6. Kareem averaged 34 pts, 14 rebounds, & 5 blocks in the series. - Kareem also was dominant in the 85 Finals. - His time with the Bucks, he was considered the best player in the league. The Bucks however could not find a guard to replace Oscar & they fell off.
@@rackball5858 okay I understand. Here’s what I’m saying let’s say we’re doing all time starting 5 and picking a center… I might lean towards Shaq. Like a lot of people would. On top of that my heart tells me take Hakeem for the defense and the basketball maturity he played with. If you have 4 great players maybe take Hakeem for the defense. That’s where I’m coming from. Or take Shaq… because he was more unstoppable than Kareem. If I have Shaq and you have Kareem.. Kareem might get bullied 🤷♀️
Kareem's best scoring, fg%, rebounding, shot blocking, and assist years were better than Shaq's best and Hakeem's best. Karen was the best player on his Bucks Championship and the first Lakers one. Only one game in the entire playoffs did Magic play better (Kareem couldn't play at all due to injury). And Kareem was at least as good as Magic in 85 Finals
Can we stop underrating lebrons help in 07. They lost by 3 points in game 3 and 2 points in game 4. I’m not saying the should have won the series, but lebron had a great chance to not only win those two games, but the series in general. In 2014 he straight up had more talent than the other team and lost by the biggest differential in nba finals history. I’m not saying lebron is bad, top 5 not doubt, but people tend to give him passes for his shortcomings. Don’t even get me started on his defense after 2016 lol
“Not saying he should’ve won the series, but he had a great chance to win the series” Did he though? The close games I can understand why you say those were achievable wins, but did he really have a ‘great chance’ to win that series?
@@jeffreyware7808 when you have the 4th best defense, three point shooters (lebrons must haves), the coach of the year and LEBRON JAMES, of course you have a chance wtf. Not to mention, Tim Duncan had a bad series by his standards
@@emilularu8903 And the Spurs defense was top 2 lol. The Cavs were also just not a good shooting team, even without lebrons 3s they still shot just 32% that series. And Mike Brown didn’t win coty until 2009, but even if it was that year are you seriously gonna give a coaching advantage to anyone when you’re playing against pop?
@@emilularu8903 And in the sense that anything can happen of course they had an opportunity to win, but I mean that was one of the most one-sided finals matchups in recent history. I think claiming he had a great chance to win is being pretty disingenuous to that spurs team too that had won 3 rings before that series already.
@@jeffreyware7808 I’m not saying they were favored I’m asking people to stop calling his teammates bums when that couldn’t be further from the truth. Lebron’s bigs broke even with TD. And need we mention 2011, or 2014
These lists don't mean anything if Kobe's not in top 10 what a joke what a disappointment you guys need to learn how to study and respect the game of basketball
I personally have LeBron over Jordan as the GOAT, but it is not based on longevity. It is based on the overall contribution that LeBron makes to every game as compared to the overall contribution that Jordan made to every game. I believe that directly scoring individually is typically overrated, because it does not take into consideration that assists were recorded because a bucket was DEFINTELY scored off of a pass. Jordan scored more on his own, but he averaged less assists than LeBron. Magic Johnson scored less on his own that lots of guys, but his passes were the reason that his team scored. Another factor that is typically "written off" is the idea of comparing players contributions in different eras. I believe that looking at "per 100 possessions" statistics gives a fairly solid basis for comparing players and teams in different eras. If we develop ratings for players that are comparable, we are also able to start comparing teams. This allows for comparing competition, especially when it comes to the Finals competition. I developed a methodology for giving players an overall contribution rating that involves the basic statistics on a "per 100 possessions" basis. I developed my own Top 10 players list based on this criteria, but I only included the highest-rated players who won multiple championships in the Top 10. Here is the list, with a little more explanation of the methodology following the list: 1) LeBron James: Basic Rtg = 63.5, Advanced Rtg = 64.1, 10 Finals, 4 rings 2) Michael Jordan: Basic Rtg = 62.2, Advanced Rtg = 62.8, 6 Finals, 6 rings 3) Wilt Chamberlain: Basic Rtg = 61.5, Advanced Rtg = 62.0, 6 Finals, 2 rings 4) Magic Johnson: Basic Rtg = 59.8, Advanced Rtg = 60.4, 9 Finals, 5 rings 5) Shaquille O'Neal: Basic Rtg = 58.6, Advanced Rtg = 60.2, 6 Finals, 4 rings 6) Tim Duncan: Basic Rtg = 56.7, Advanced Rtg = 59.7, 6 Finals, 5 rings 7) Larry Bird: Basic Rtg = 56.7, Advanced Rtg = 57.7, 5 Finals, 3 rings 8) Hakeem Olajuwon: Basic Rtg = 55.1, Advanced Rtg = 57.2, 3 Finals, 2 rings 9) Kareem A. Jabbar: Basic Rtg = 54.2, Advanced Rtg = 56.6, 10 Finals, 6 rings 10) Steph Curry: Basic Rtg = 56.3, Advanced Rtg = 56.5, 6 Finals, 4 rings Here's a simplistic description of my methodology: 1) I decided to use the "Per 100 possessions" statistics to level the playing field across different eras of basketball. 2) I'm using the basic statistics that actually relate to scoring points. 3) Those statistics fit into two categories for me: Points-based or Possessions-based. 4) The Points-based statistics are Points scored directly and Assists. These are directly related to the points scored in a game. 5) The Possessions-based statistics are: Rebounds, Steals, Blocks, and Turnovers. These are indirectly related to the points scored in a game. 6) The points scored per 100 possessions are a direct statistic. The assists per 100 possessions were be multiplied by a value and added to the points scored directly by a player. 7) The net possessions statistic can also be assigned a value in terms of the points they would typically represent. Their value in the calculation is lower, because each possession only produces scoring around 50% of the time (I picked one "points per possession" value to apply equally to all players regardless of era). 8) I have a "basic" rating and also an "advanced" rating that factors in the Defensive Rating and the True Shooting percentage. Guys like Jerry West, Bill Russell, Kobe Bryant, Julius Erving, and Kevin Durant are in the next 10. For being in the Top 20, a player needed to be the lead-player or co-lead player on at least one championship winning team. Even with only the accomplishments so far, Giannis and Jokic were in the Top 20. Their ratings are so good that it is unlikely they will drop out of the Top 20 even when their career statistics are lower in future years. What is additionally useful for having a methodology is that it allows you to see what the "inherent talent level" is for any team based on who the top 6 minutes-getters are (starting 5 plus the team's 6th man). That is where meaningful conclusions can be drawn about the outcomes of Finals series. For example, Michael Jordan's Bulls teams in the 2nd three-peat were among the most "inherently talented" in the history of the NBA. They were huge favorites to win when you compare them to their competition using the calculation above for the rosters and then factor in the team defensive rating for each squad. Comparatively, LeBron played as the underdog for most of his Finals appearances. The Warriors teams, especially with Durant, were among the other best teams in the history of the NBA. It is important to look at who was on the floor for each team in the Finals. If Kyrie and Love hadn't been injured in some of those Cavs-Warriors Finals, the Cavs would have had a much better chance of winning. Those guys don't make contributions from the bench. When I compared the "inherent talent" scores for the six Michael Jordan Bulls teams in the Finals (and their opponents) and then compared to the LeBron James opponents in the Finals (when he lost), Jordan's teams went from heavy favorites to heavy underdogs for at least two of the series. The inherent talent on both teams makes a world of difference when it comes to the outcomes of championship series. I don't think Jordan's teams would have won 6 championships as heavy underdogs for two of the series and as "evenly matched" for three more series. One other thing about the Finals is that I would knock LeBron more for his Finals performance against the Mavs (as compared to Jordan) if Jordan had actually been in a Finals at that age. The reality is that Jordan hadn't even made it to the Finals yet at that age. The point is that it is worth figuring out how to compare players and teams throughout history when ranking them. I appreciate the defensive prowess argument for Bill Russell, for example. Nevertheless, Bill Russell's defensive rating doesn't completely offset how low his offensive contribution was comparatively. He is in my Top 15, but he just didn't make enough overall contribution to be in my Top 10. If there is any remaining question about the impact of LeBron James and his overall game, take a look at how much team records changed every time he went to a team or left a team. There was an immediate and major impact every time. The overall quality of player difference between Jordan and LeBron is small. I have LeBron with the edge. However, in addition to making a greater overall contribution, LeBron has done it for almost twice as long as Jordan when you realize Jordan only had 11 seasons of elite basketball. Longevity is the icing on the cake that was already baked.
Tim Duncan had relatively lower quality teammates in his era compared to LBJ in any of his contention years and he won more championships and had a better winning record than LBJ. Therefore, Duncan > LBJ. LBJ is gonna drop off this list so hard once he retires and clutch sports stops paying media to talk him up.
The Tim Duncan love is much appreciated. I think he’s the most underrated player all time out of the top tier players
I think you can even argue that Duncan is better than Kareem. Kareem has the stats & accolades but Duncan was the best player on more title teams than Kareem.
I agree. He sacrificed stats for winning and people always look at stats but he won a lot and has the accolades and longevity to be top 5
Excellent analysis. I'm impressed as I didn't expect much from a couple of youngins. This video alone deserves a subscription.
This is probably by default the best goat break down on UA-cam 2 great minds disecting the game
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Go along
@@HypocritesExposdHe’s right
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As an older guy I'd tell you Magic was getting better and better and better each year until that cursed day. He had maybe 6 to 8 years ahead of him
Agreed, Magic was second in MVP the year he announced his retirement. The notion that MJ beat an old Magic Johnson with aids is baffling to me. Those Laker teams were actually really good. Sure they lost an old Kareem, but Vlade Divac+Sam Perkins were more than legitimate replacement for an old Kareem.
Thanks for the hardwork boys! This series was thoroughly enjoyable and informative.
Michael Jordan had a whole league shook. Straight up scared or in pure reverence. Go watch other NBA stars talk about him. That matters, boxing pundits understand this. It’s more than numbers, his presence alone made other NBA stars feel like losing was inevitable. There’s winning and then there’s breaking your competition. This concept is always overlooked or down played by analysts but competitors know there is credence to it. The guy played in 11 championships in his basketball career…NCAA, NBA, FIBA etc. 11-0 obviously the team and context matters. But still speaks to the man.
Also, basketball has always been a sport that values aesthetics. Go watch full MJ games-when it comes to the eye test, the level is clearly seen.
Jordan. 36 holes of golf. Staying all night drinking. Before finals games. Lebron spend a million on recovery every season. Come on now
Bird midrange: 51% Michael Jordan midrange: 49% Oscar Robertson midrange: 49% Steph Curry midrange: 47% Dirk midrange: 47% KD midrange: 45%
Bird is the best midrange shooter of all time
Jerry West
Great series watched every second
These ranking videos were a lot of fun to watch, this would be the ranking if your lists were combined
1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Magic Johnson
5. Tim Duncan
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Bill Russell
9. Wilt Chamberlain
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Steph Curry
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Kevin Durant
15. Kevin Garnett
16. Julius Erving
17. Oscar Robertson
18. Dirk Nowitzki
19. Nikola Jokic
20. Moses Malone
21. Giannis Antetokounmpo
22. Elgin Baylor
23. Kawhi Leonard
24. Chris Paul
25. Charles Barkley
26. Karl Malone
27. Jason Kidd
28. Dwyane Wade
29. John Havlicek
I can’t see Jordan ever losing to Jason Terry and JJ Barea the fact that they trash talked Lebron and he didn’t respond appropriately tells me all I need to know
The eye test on the biggest stage is proof enough
Eye test easily shows Lebron is better! Come on buddy. Bigger faster stronger. Simple
@@AlessandroZane
Eye test shows he’s less skilled as a basketball player.
@@AlessandroZaneHe’s bigger but definitely not faster.
@@AlessandroZanebeing stronger doesn’t equate to skill that’s why Kyrie and Steph are transcendent because of skill. The fact that Lebron doesn’t have a go to move is damming
@@azraelfirstofhisname8695the guy is 6’8” without a post up move, outside of the ugliest, non-money fadeaway in nba history
Great discussion as always. I don't dispute Kareem being at #3 as an all time NBA player but I think he indisputably had the greatest basketball career ever and I'd argue because of that he's the greatest hooper ever. His pro career was obviously legendary but his UCLA college career as the greatest player with the greatest college dynasty ever--very comparable to the Celtics in the NBA--takes him without question above Jordan or LBJ. He won 3 NCAA championships as the greatest college player ever and didn't win a fourth because freshmen weren't allowed to play varsity in those days. So 9 championships shojuld have been 10. Russell got 13 with his 2 USF college titles but no one believes Russell was better than Kareem.
Good post. What goes against Kareem is that many feel that the 80s Showtime Lakers success started with Magic. He didn’t have success in a Lakers jersey in the 4 years before Magic entered the league.
- He also won 1 Finals MVP of the 5 rings won with the Lakers.
-Honestly, within a few weeks into his rookie season, I think nearly everyone viewed Jordan as the best singular player in the league. Just watching early interviews with Bird & Magic, they were truly mystified & astonished by Jordan.
- I do, believe however, that comparing guards or forwards with Centers is a tough task.
@@rackball5858 Intelligently put.
I am not sure Celtics would have won all these rings with Kareem instead of Russell
Good point@@NadavHbr
Yeah, I remember when Jordan came in. I don't think people thought he was the best player but without a doubt the most talented. Almost unheard of for a rookie. The Bulls didn't win until 91 but were already scary during much of the 80's. As a Lakers fan in those days I hated to see the Bulls on the schedule.@@rackball5858
Isn’t longevity based on era? Less fouls, less play time, better medicine, and play style. Can we agree that the best of all time or goat debates are what ifs? Jordan didn’t play Lebron in his prime. We will never see that. We are making calculated assumptions of what would happen in those scenarios based on statistics and the eye test. So with that said, what would happen if a player today, played in the 80’s? Also consider the Bball rules, medicine, game rules and technology. Would longevity still be as long? How would Jordan play now with the era advantages?
These dudes are just so entertaining to watch, shoutout to Carson and the Cody Zeller look-alike, Logan haha
Whenever we talk about eras, I want people to acknowledge how much more OVERALLY bigger, faster, stronger, talented players are today. Yes you can say if players back then got the same training, medicine, facilities as people do today, it might be similar, but they didn't. 1-15 players are so talented in todays game, and you can't just be a tall guy anymore on the court.
Also the rule changes matter just as much. Illegal defense rules forced one on one play resulting in 90s teams scheming their placement above the foul line allowing their stars 1v1 matchups on the block. The rule was so extreme that if 90s teams actually used modern spacing principles they could actually place every player above the 3 line and every player would have gravity regardless of shooting ability….instead the Bulls and Jazz went as high as the foul line.
“But they didn’t” - exactly why it’s an important caveat lol.
Great video, you guys are goats of nba analysis
Kobe 12th 😂
Exactly 😂
By the way… very well done. Excellent analysis!
Bill russell playing anywhere from the 90s to now would be mix of a andre dummond offensively and dennis rodman defensively type player. Doesnt deserve to be top 5 guy couldnt touch 20 ppg. Wilt would dominate in any era.
Good list on the whole. I think Hakeem could be higher still, those chips were insane achievements considering who he had to get through and who he had, and he didnt play in an era when the game was completely different like Russell and Wilt. Iirc by some metrics like opponents' games won in the regular season the 95 chip might be one of the most difficult ever
Marcus Camby IS skinny.
Shaq admitted to being just under 400 lbs at one point on Lakers
Lots of fun, think the guy on the rights list made more sense 💯
Spurs had an absurd +/- rating including Duncan. It was a system offense and Duncan is a system player.
I think you got to add the “complete game factor” when you do these break downs. You have one guy being a great facilitator as well as dominating downhill force penetrator. Then you have a guy with no weaknesses in terms of inside out, on off ball, facilitate iso offensively and defensively. I base my goat primarily with this in mind. Great show guys.🔥🔥🔥
Bet MJ is your GOAT....highly doubtful it's Lebron...he's bad at FT...relative to the greats...and a turnover machine...
@@donjuandemarco4529 Born a raised a Bulls fan and seen Jordan’s whole career. That said, I am able to be objective and I don’t have LeBron in the top 5. JMO
@@loustro40 worst take in the history of sports
@@cheerios-9464 thank you I embrace the infamy…
Even though I completely disagree with nearly the entirety of both your lists it was still an entertaining set of videos to watch. It's wild how different people value fundamentally different things in this conversation.
The entirety? How does your list go then
If Tim Duncan had trash teams and was still able to accomplish everything he did, I think it's pretty safe to say he'd be considered a top 3 player all time. No question. He was next level.
Tim Duncan did not have trash teams. The man got drafted onto a playoff team. David Robinson injury was the biggest blessing in disguise for the Spurs to get Duncan.
What trash teams? 😂😂 You just lying 😂😂
@@wesgarnett119 How did both of you literally miss the “if” at the very beginning of my comment…
@@Landonio lol reading is hard.
@@Landonio But did you not realize you ended the statement with "he was next level" confirming that you to believe what you just said. Nice try though almost got out of it.
LeFraud is a low top 10: no jumper, no three, needs super teams to have a losing record in the finals.
Neither is Kareem then. No jumper, no three
People forget that the NBA allow the zone, just to stop Shaq
Best goat convo
I’ll second that.
facts, broke everything down perfectly
Evaluating an individual player on team success seems like the worst "most important criteria". Especially if Russell doesn't then end up in the Top 5.
Great great work young fellas. So good to see some objectiveness from the next generation. The cop out of calling MJ over LeBron guys old heads and Stans of an era, is so ridiculous. You guys broke it down nearly perfect. Only thing I would add to further enhance the separation of MJ and everyone else is more on the macro side. When By MJs third year, it was a consensus, whether you were a young basketball fan, or an old Russell and Chamberlain guy, that you were watching the greatest basketball player youd ever seen. And the consensus was almost amongst the media and the players as well. Women's and children knew. There were no questions. It was like the human gnosis understood, ok, the basketball gods have sent us their only son for our viewing pleasure. The second is the sheer efficiency. 3rd place in the all the time scoring list in just 13 full years as shooting guard not shooting any threes?!?! That's insane man. Really think about it. It took LeBron, the most gifted basketball player since MJ, 17 years to pass him. His fundamentals were just as spectacular as is flashiness. It's just the perfect storm. Black Jesus. There can only be one.
Lebron will drop right down this list once he retires and his paid fanboys stop nuthugging him.
Imagine kids having a discussion about Top NBA players in history and not being alive when they played. Anyone can shoot off stats of players but there's so much more that goes into a players greatness than just stats. This conversation is like blind people talking about their favorite color.
They have clearly watched tape though
Kobe at 12 says it all
He is a bit too low
*i know we're not supposed to pit players against other eras but i think 2001 Shaq would absolutely OBLITERATE Bill Russell and Kareem 1 on 1. in good conscience, i can't put any of them above Shaq, it just doesn't feel right.*
Please tell me that twix plug was unsponsored. 🤣
Longevity has diminishing returns over time not sure how doing something longer makes you greater
We will never know how great Wilt or Bill were compared to todays players. They were so much more dominant than the rest of the era. If they had been any more dominant people would have accused them of cheating. I think thats why Wilt never fouled out.
The truth is that it is not only about dominance within an era, otherwise Bill would indisputably be #1. Whether we think they could dominate today or in other eras is also taken into account, it just depends how much. And for me it does matter, Im not having the likes of Russell in the top ten let alone five if his game wouldnt translate. It would be like saying Bruce Lee is the greatest fighter of all time when he would get cooked by any top 10 ufc featherweight today. Imo if they wanted to keep the old heads relevant they shouldnt have introduced the three point line and made the game as different as it is today
Refresh for sound
Kareem is the all time leader in blocks with a asterisk iykyk
Yeah man.
Great series Guys! I was just wondering, who has a potential to move up in upcoming years. There are not many current players on the board. I do not think that LBJ will go up. Is it only Jokic and Giannis that can move up to top 10-15 in upcoming years? Where do you put a ceiling on Jokic’s place on the list?
Steph and KD potentially but it would need another great finals run imo. Kawhi I think winning another Chip would put him undisputed top 25. Jokic and Giannis def can go up with another deep playoff run and they will prob both be top 3 in mvp voting again. Idk if any current player outside of top 25 can get there at this point. The older guys like Harden, CP3 wont be #1's anymore so even a ring wouldnt change much. I think Tatum, Luka and Embiid would be closing in with another great year and a ring but not top 25.
Wait, he's talking like he reviewed Bill Russel film. Where's that at?!
8 teams in the league and his was by far the most talented, just can’t justify putting him at 4
For real top 12 -15
my man said i look at peak 2 way player that plays both side longevity and than puts kobe at 12 lmfao a joke kids that havent even seen him play just looked at stats
The problem is that Kobe didn't peak offensively and defensively at the same time. Kobe peak defensively in the early 2000s but offensively in peak in 2006-10. He never brought it all together.
The disrespect on Kobe Bryant’s ranking is absurd!! Mike and Kobe are the same player but Kobe is ranked 11 & 12?? Please!! You guys clearly wasn’t watching basketball when Kobe played.
Thanks for showing love to Russell
Much respect for having Bill at #4
We’re at that point in the off-season😭
My question is they say peak over longevity.. but Lebron arguably has the LONGEST peak in NBA History.. from 2011-20 Lebron was an MVP candidate level player every single year.. thats a decade of a peak.. being the most all around player in NBA History.. who else can we say that about?
Jordan’s peak lasted from 88-98 as the best 2-way player in the game.
Lebron has not been considered a great defender since 2014. It’s been spotty since then.
@@rackball5858 heres the problem.. no one talks about any year before 91.. also in that frame he didnt play in 94 and played part of 95.. thats 4 1/2 years in that time frame.. when u hear Jordan its always “6 for 6” u heard them, he never played bad on the biggest stage, but in his peak he also took almost 2 years off in a contact sport
Exactly Jordan didn't have the longevity of Lebron, but he had the higher peak so rating Jordan over Lebron is them following through on peak over longevity.
@@JayDaMan420In this video, they don’t talk about Jordan 87 88 89 or 90. But if you witnessed it live or researched , you know that a few of those seasons are considered historically as the best in history.
Before Jordan even won a ring, guys like Auerbach were calling him a top 10 player of all time. By 93, he was the consensus best ever.
And coming back out of retirement in any sport has never been considered “easy” or sustainable. Really, only Muhammad Ali had a successful sports career after coming out of retirement. Most comebacks resulted in failure.
Honestly, I’m not sure many people expected Jordan to play 3 straight 82 game seasons at 33-35 year old & 3-peat while clearly being head & shoulders better than the #2 guy.
@@rackball5858 trust me i know about those seasons.. and they are great.. but when have u ever heard in an argument vs Lebron about any year in the 80s? Never.. cuz the argument leans heavily on 6-0.. they dont wanna talk about the struggle in 89.. nor do they wanna mention he couldnt finish the pistons in game 7 as the best player in the world.. not saying that those seasons werent great but those seasons are ignored while we highlight lebron losing in the finals.. by no means am I personally taking out Jordans greatness before he won a ring
The arguments for Lebron...NO! They simply don't work. Better yet, they ONLY work in this era of excuse-making (it seems solely for propping up Lebron) and participation trophies!
1. Making the finals as much as he did: So what? His conference was the weakest it probably has ever been during that stretch. Lebron could afford to cruise to the finals for years but then when he finally met real competition he either folded or got crushed by better teams.
2. The fact that he lost to the superior Warriors is not an excuse. HE LOST! Just as the Warriors had an advantage with their fire power with the trio KD-Steph-Klay, the Heat had their advantages in their conference and should have even had that in the finals against the Mavericks and the Spurs with Lebron-Wade-Bosh. So if he is getting brownie points for losing against a superior Warriors team, it should actually work against him going against to much weaker teams in his own conference and losing in the finals while being the huge favorite against the Mavericks. Making the finals means nothing if you don’t win it! As the Bulls used to say: IT DON’T MEAN A THING WITHOUT THE RING!
3. His scoring: Scoring is inflated in this era. The number of players that have 30pt games in this era is ridiculous and tells us that scoring isn’t difficult in today’s NBA. He may be pushing 40, but in an era where simply looking at someone is enough for the ref to call a foul that is hardly an impressive feat.
4. His longevity is incredible, but a bit overblown. He has played in 80 regular season games only twice in his career and in all 82 games only once. That’s some load management for you there, plus, again, in an era where you can’t be touched without being fouled. And did I mention Lebron isn’t playing defense for years now? You compared him to Michael Jordan, who has played in 80 games 11 seasons and in all 82 games 9 times, including in his last season after recovering from knee surgery at the age of 40! AND playing both sides of the court. Again, his longevity is great, but let’s not overdo it.
5. Lebron being a “pass-first” player. This is the media-driven narrative while the numbers speak very differently. If Lebron is really a pass-first player, how come he only has a 7.3 assist average? How come, if he “pass first and shoot second”, he has a higher FGA (Field Goal Attempt) per game than Kobe Bryant? Lebron has 22 FGA per game and Kobe has 20.4 FGA a game. No one in their right mind would call Kobe a “pass-first” player, yet why do people call Lebron that when he has more FGA’s per game than Kobe? Fact of the matter is that the numbers tell us a complete different stories: Lebron is a shoot first player that likes to pass the ball, especially in clutch situations. The fact that he is the all time scorer is to be commended and no surprise if you play this long.
Lebron has team-hopped, handpicked his team mates and played with many stars and great players during his career trying to tip the scales in his favor to win championships and failed multiple times when the light shined the brightest and the stakes were highest. Unlike Jordan, who stuck to the Bulls, when they sucked badly, never asked for any trades or harassed the GM for players to join his team, sharpened his teeth and his team mates to get to his level of competitiveness and played with just 1 All Star his entire career in Scottie Pippen and got the job done when it all mattered the most. This GOAT comparison is not close in my book.
u guys the goats
1. MJ 2. Kareem 3. Russell 4. LBJ 5. Wilt. My top 5.
Another GOAT debate....uggh in general. That said you did a great job without the standard Jordan worshipping. I'm so tired of it that I view the Jordan "truthers" like a deranged cult. You almosy started going there with the Jordan could have been a great playmaker....blah blah blah line, but kept it under control. So thanks for not being typical with your analysis.
To me, the best way to "decide" this debate is to kind of cop out and put the 3 GOATs in the top tier. It really comes down to preference among Jordan, Kareem and LeBron. I am so grateful to have seen all 3 in their prime many many times in person. They brought so much joy with their dedication to perfecting their basketball skills. They had, respectively, the most strengths and fewest weaknesses during thier primes and utterly dominated the best athletes in the world.
MJ averaged 6 assists per game. Stop pretending he averaged 2
@dimitrythomas4158 Who did that? Jordan was good at everything, including passing. For Jordan cultists / worshipers, that's not enough. For them, Jordan was either the best at it or if he tried he would have been the best at it. I've literally heard crazy posters say absurd stuff like if he wanted to he could have had assists like Magic, or if 3pt shooting was as popular as it is now he would have been as good or better than Steph Curry. These kinds of absurd statements make the GOAT debate no fun and it happens all time.
There is / was very little (if any) difference among the tier 1 players' impact on winning. Yet Jordan cultists act like he was soo far above the other greats that it's laughable....
We are talking about mere mortals here, despite the hype.
This isn’t even a debate. LeBron never passed Kobe and Kobe couldn’t touch MJ.
Far surpassed Kobe. The comparison alone is disrespectful to LeBron
I hate jordan fans because they discredit other greats specifically lebron to big up MJ and jordan doesn't need it. He's jordan his game and resume speaks for itself.. who cares if some people think lebron is better.. jordan fans and lebron fans to be fair treat these debates like game of thrones.. its no fun anymore
And I think mj is clearly the goat but I'm not goin to waste all this energy trying to convince other people of it I respect bron kobe Kareem magic.. I respect all the greats even if I have MJ 1
LeBron never passed Kobe because he never had to: he was better the second he stepped foot on the floor 💯
Huge miss not indexing more on 3peat. …. 2X
Best one yet
. Wilt 2 Wilt 3 Wilt 4 Wilt 5 Wilt
Yes, Earvin Johnson #5
This is the main point. None of the other greats ate in the 90s because of Jordan. LeBron never had the definitive team at any time he was playing. Tim Duncan and Steph Curry did.
Bunch of teams ate in the 90s and the 80s when he played. This has never been a good argument for Jordan. It's just a falacy.
@@Danielr0418Who ate in the 90s when Jordan played a full season?
Lol cuz Jordan never had pippens knees breakdown and his second and third best players get their shoulder ripped out and break their kneecap. And the second and third best players in the league didn’t team up to beat Jordan either
@zain4070 LeBron had 3 other Hall of Fame players in Miami, one Hall of Famer and an All-Star In Cleveland, and another top-5 player in LA. LeBron has objectively had more help than anyone in history. Even KD and Golden State's move was just a direct response to LeBron's super-team bullshit. They just managed to one-up him.
@@jjstraka1982For a guy with “the most help in NBA history”, every single team he’s been on in his 20 year career has had a negative Net rating when he isn’t on the court. Even those Miami “superteams” were being outplayed and outscored when LeBron wasn’t on the court.
The problem here is that basketball discourse just looks at names as opposed to production. “Hall of famers” don’t say much in a vacuum.
Is the no sound intentional
Whole video no sound fellas
If „impact on winning“ is a top criterion - how is Russell not in the top 5 ???
He literally was 4 on Carson’s list
Lebron is the Goat 🐐 Point blank period.
My top 5 is 5. Bill Russell 4. Magic Johnson 3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 2. Lebron James 1. Michael Jordan
I think they are the #1 players of each of their eras. Russel 60's, Kareem 70's, Magic 80's, MJ 90's, Lebron 2010's. (I think 2000's are a mix of Shaq, Duncan, Kobe)
Peaks should not outweigh longevity especially when the person has a great peak too. IJS
Tim Duncan Top 5 is a no brainer.
MJ had coke head teammates in the 80’s.
like you said
Peak - MJ
Longevity - LeBron
they are literally 1A 1B
Except Jordan’s 11 year peak still outnumbers Lebron’s longevity. And it’s objective as it gets if we’re just comparing their careers from a winning, trophy, award, accolade perspective. Jordan tops everyone from the modern NBA.
agreed! MJ Forever@@rackball5858
When Lebron passed Jordan in
March 20, 2019........he really passed him and has been lapping him every since
LEBRON JAMES
Career Points 32,543
Career Assists 8,606
Career Rebounds 8,844
Career Blocks 918
Field Goal Attempts 23,400
Free Throws Made 7,140
----------------------------------------------------------
MICHAEL JORDAN
Career Points 32,292
Career Assists 6,672
Career Rebounds 5,643
Career Blocks 893
Field Goal Attempts 24,537
Free Throws Made 7,327
-----------------------------------------------------------
There is also something to be said about Jordan playing with all defensive players
Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman.......even Jordan's bigs were protecting the paint
Jordan had continuity - stayed with Phil Jackson...and Pippen.
I think it is harder to play with different teams....different coaches...different owners.....different sidekicks...and different benches........trumps peak....and gets to something else.
But their is other stuff just makes LBJ case even more compelling
Only player with a NBA TRIPLE QUINTUPLE (30, 10 and 10)...no other player has 27,7,7
19 TIME ALL NBA
19 seasons averaging 25 ppg
Most NBA All Star Votes all time (by millions_
All time leading scorer in playoffs, regular season and all star game
Most consecutive games scoring 10 ppg
Led both teams in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks in NBA Finals
All time playoff leader in steals and assists
4th All time in assists......and I believe he will eventually pass Chris Paul and become 3rd all time in assists
Has a ton of youngest to NBA accolades and is now getting a ton of oldest to NBA accolades
When someone says Chase Down Block - what player do you think of?
Longevity is not a weakness.....when you great - this long -- that is GOAT stuff.
Jordan had the best team by far in the 90s. Lebrons comp was way better. That jazz team scored 54 points in the finals. illegal defense no help coming at Jordan when he’s isolating in the wing or the post. Every team he played in the finals had 1 superstar max except the jazz. If I put Lebron on Jordan’s teams they go 6-0 if I put Jordan on lebrons they’re still 4-6. He wins 2011 but doesn’t win 2016
Shawn Kemp was absolutely a superstar when the Sonics got to the Finals. He’s not in the hall of fame because he didn’t have the longevity.
And a thought - J Kidd over John Stockton ? That is strange.
Kidd was better…
Truthfully, I think magic and wilt could’ve been considered the greatest of all time wilt had he one more championships and magic if he could’ve continued to play, but as it stands, I’m going Michael Jordan
Was hoping for once there would be an argument for lebron as the goat but just the same old default Jordan argument. What more does the man gotta do? Saying one more 25 10 8 season will make a difference is just insane at this point lol
Bruh did NOT just put Jason Kidd in the top 25
You probably saying that cause he's white
Shaq should have averaged 18-20 rebounds per game if he he wanted it
Please we need sound
Reload the video it's UA-cam
Longevity means nothing without durability
I got 1. LeBron 2. MJ 3. Kareem 4. Hakeem 5. Duncan.
Do you watch basketball?
@@JC-eu8rg Uh huh, do you?
what’s the argument for lebron over ish smith exactly?
Better hair.
Consistency matters and in my opinion they lack consistency from player to player Kobe 12 time all defensive team doesnt hold any weight for him being a great defender but Lebron 19 all nba teams makes it no argument for longevity and to mention Kobe had a “much better” supporting cast with Lamar odom, Trevor Ariza, pau Gasol and bynum which is laughable btw and to not mention one teammate of Lebron from his various super teams etc etc…
Shaq higher than Wilt?!? Do Not agree. Also, Magic over Bird? Nope, not in MY opinion. I have enjoyed these vids tho.
I got to say the kid on the left brought up something I had never thought of before in the GOAT debate. Prime Michael Jordan prevented so many All Time Greats from winning a ring. Had he not gone on to try baseball, Hakeem would have ZERO! And Jordan would have won 8 in a row! BORING! Hakeem owes Michael a lifetime of gratitude. Meanwhile in Lebrons prime, I can name 8 different organizations that won a title. Lebron has done very little in preventing other superstars from winning a title. Dirk, Pierce, KG, Wade, Kobe, Duncan, Steph, Klay, Jokic, ABC, Leonard…They ALL ATE on Lebrons watch. There’s no debating Lebron for anything GOAT related.
Stop watching when they put Kobe Bryant at 12 😂😂😂
As always media underrate Kobe and overrate Lebron, nothing new here. They never take context in consideration. I'm not saying Kobe should be ranked above Lebron but him at 12 and Lebron in a laughable goat conversation it's really too much to digest.
Well brother I have not listened to the full debate nor do I care too… Kobe Bryant was better than magic, bird, and Duncan. They lie to us and act like it’s easy being drafted by the lakers it’s not but yet he shined.
Imaging Kobe in charlotte career average 39, 6, 7 …. 2 rings they would hail him
@@sergioa.9695What makes it laughable?
I’ll answer… Kobe 18 years old in the biggest market in the league with the most pressure won 5 championships. Never folded under the lights. People fail to realize he is the second coming of Jordan had he been in Jordan shoes he would have had 7-8 championships period. Stats mean nothing brother. Jordan hit a sweet spot in the NBA all be it he is great but to have Kobe outside of any top three is absurd
You dare to talk about lebron being ambidextrous yet ignore that attribute in kobe who was much better than him with the left.
Cool story, Kobe is barely top 15
How many first team all defenses has Lebron made?? Off top my head I’ll say 2 or 3 compared to 10. Anyone who decides this makes sense is reaching. Lebron can’t and won’t reach Jordan
He has 6. Not surprising to me that you didn't even guess half of what he actually has.
Making first team as a gaurd is much easier. All defense is also a reputation and cache award
@@richardliu7838He has 5 1st Team All Defensive’s
@@rackball5858 yeah my bad, mixed it up with his first + second team selections while finding the stats
@@richardliu7838Yep Yep. Not like 5 all 1st def is bad or anything. But his defense became hit or miss starting in 2015.
I'm so happy you guys see the truth and chose jordan 1
peak lebron was 2012- better defensive rating than kobe or jordan ever had, he had his mid-range, and he averaged 40% from 3. he averaged 27 points under 18 shot attempts and had a 56fg%, 2 steals per game highest in his career. his 2018 run was nuts especially since he was alone star power wise, but overall id take 2012 lebron as his absolute peak.
Can't hear them
Here we go 😂
I'll never get the off ball argument for Jordan>LeBron, LeBron is a more capable spot up 3pt shooter (which provides more spacing than mid ranges) and trailer, as well as an active screener unlike MJ. LeBron led better postseason offenses and comparable regular seasons, MJ's "ceiling raising" never led to an offense like 17 playoff Cavs'.
Off ball? Lebron is by far one of the most ball dominant players of all time. And Lebron is not a better 3pt shooter than MJ in the playoffs and is barely leading him in 3pt shooting in the regular season. Also the year you are referring to should be 2018. 2017 Kyrie was available for the entire playoff run. 2018 was more impressive since he was more on his own, but his competition was no where near relevant until the finals. In which MJ has put up far more impressive offensive performances.
Their 3% are close and MJ is a better 3% shooter in the playoffs. Lebron is a below average 3 point shooter in his era and MJ was an average 3 point shooter in his area. So Lebron is not spacing anything with his 3.
@@b111x While LeBron is up there in regards to touches, his actual time of possession since it's been tracked isn't a outlier for a lead ball handler.
LeBron provides more spacing than Jordan for the same reasons Curry provides more than other 40% 3pt shooters: volume and range.
I meant what I said in regards to it being the 17 playoffs that MJ never touched, LeBron led the Cavs to an ORTG 8.1% better than the playoff average.
@@b111xThe argument you made about 2018 being more impressive is Lebron as a floor raiser though while he was arguing that Lebron is just as good of a Ceiling raiser as MJ so 2017 would be the correct year to use not 2018.
@@benjaminan1183 it is not even applicable to use off ball as an argument for either side when they are 2 ball dominant players. They are not like Curry who you brought up since he can dominate a game without the ball. All Lebron and MJ can do without the ball is set screens and go up for lobs off of cuts. If you really wanted me to nitpick, MJ could be considered the better off ball player because he has came off of cuts the same way Curry does without the ball except for MJ did it from midrange. He is the best midrange shooter of all time. And unlike your “capable” 3pt shooter argument for Lebron (which is false by the way), MJs midrange percentage is considered not just good but one of the best of all time.
Compared to Lebron’s 3 point percentage which is bad. Not even solid or average. Which is why that volume, range or anything where you compare Lebron and Curry in a spacing argument is honestly crazy😂The only way Lebron provides spacing in general is with the ball in his hand and attacking the rim. Anything else revolves around a hot shooting night. MJ does both of those as well.
And as for your 2018 vs 2017 comment, again, you are using a year in which he had Kyrie Irving as a teammate. Someone in which is better offensively than MJ ever played with. So it is not surprising Lebron had a higher offensive rating. Regardless, Lebron never lead his teams to a number 1 offensive rating at all. MJ did multiple times which is all that matters in terms of how dominant you were in your era and how impactful you were to your team’s offense.
I'm not with his lebron james' longevity comments at 54 minutes in, imagine how long jordan would have played if he only played 72- 73 games every year!! Jordan played 82 every year stop the longevity argument lol 😅😅
No sound
Jordan is the GOAT
bothe are greats, but lbj carried the weakest team ever to the nba finals in 2007 against mighty spurs as the lone star, mj as the lone star wasn’t winning a thing, and 90’s was a weak era, they had no competition honestly, just playing with there food mostly!
How are the 2007 Cavs the weakest team ever when they were a #2 seed in one of the weakest conference eras in nba history? All Lebron had to do was defeat 2 41-41 teams just to get to the Pistons.
In Lebron’s first 7 seasons, he defeated 1 50+ win team in a playoff series(53 win 2007 Pistons).
By contrast, in Jordan’s first 7 seasons, he & the Bulls defeated 4 50-win teams : the 57 win Cavs(89), 53 win 76ers(90), 50 win Pistons(91), & 58 win Lakers(91).
- 3 of those series wins featuring Jordan came with 0 all-star help.
Don’t talk about “90’s weak era” when a majority of the East from 2001 until 2019 was considered weak as shit.
@@rackball5858 Not as weak as the 90’s dude, it was weak since pistons, celtics got old and bulls take over when it was at the weakest, stop with that 50 win game stats, it will only deceive delusional casual fans that didn’t watch that weakest era of the league, it was a cakewalk in the 90’s!
@@rackball5858 you take out lbj on that team it will be an instant lottery, mj got tired and rested for a year and half they were in the eastern semi finals with pippen leading them without mj
We dont talk about kareem until we come out and say he's top 3 all time. He's not Shaq, he's not as impressive as Hakeem. He won 5 chips as the second best player, and Bird was better than magic in my estimation. I don't see how Kareem is top 3. He should've won more rings in an easier era, during his early years with Bucks. When he was at his best... 1 ring. Curry 4 rings as a top 3 player on earth. Dwade won a ring as the guy, Dirk got one. I just think Kareem at 3 is fake news. Give me Hakeem on my team.
edit: some of those playoff stats you named are crazy like 26 ppg at that age I didn't know that
Kareem was not considered the Lakers 2nd best player in the 79-80 season or the 80-81 season. Him & Magic were seen as equals up until 86 when Kareem was 39 years old. -
In the 80 season, he was the mvp & on his way to finals mvp until he was hurt in game 5 & Magic had a historically great Game 6.
Kareem averaged 34 pts, 14 rebounds, & 5 blocks in the series.
- Kareem also was dominant in the 85 Finals.
- His time with the Bucks, he was considered the best player in the league. The Bucks however could not find a guard to replace Oscar & they fell off.
@@rackball5858 okay I understand. Here’s what I’m saying let’s say we’re doing all time starting 5 and picking a center… I might lean towards Shaq. Like a lot of people would. On top of that my heart tells me take Hakeem for the defense and the basketball maturity he played with. If you have 4 great players maybe take Hakeem for the defense. That’s where I’m coming from. Or take Shaq… because he was more unstoppable than Kareem.
If I have Shaq and you have Kareem.. Kareem might get bullied 🤷♀️
@@rackball5858appreciate the facts though!
Kareem's best scoring, fg%, rebounding, shot blocking, and assist years were better than Shaq's best and Hakeem's best.
Karen was the best player on his Bucks Championship and the first Lakers one. Only one game in the entire playoffs did Magic play better (Kareem couldn't play at all due to injury). And Kareem was at least as good as Magic in 85 Finals
People overrate the fuck out of Shaq.
Can we stop underrating lebrons help in 07. They lost by 3 points in game 3 and 2 points in game 4. I’m not saying the should have won the series, but lebron had a great chance to not only win those two games, but the series in general. In 2014 he straight up had more talent than the other team and lost by the biggest differential in nba finals history. I’m not saying lebron is bad, top 5 not doubt, but people tend to give him passes for his shortcomings. Don’t even get me started on his defense after 2016 lol
“Not saying he should’ve won the series, but he had a great chance to win the series” Did he though? The close games I can understand why you say those were achievable wins, but did he really have a ‘great chance’ to win that series?
@@jeffreyware7808 when you have the 4th best defense, three point shooters (lebrons must haves), the coach of the year and LEBRON JAMES, of course you have a chance wtf. Not to mention, Tim Duncan had a bad series by his standards
@@emilularu8903 And the Spurs defense was top 2 lol. The Cavs were also just not a good shooting team, even without lebrons 3s they still shot just 32% that series. And Mike Brown didn’t win coty until 2009, but even if it was that year are you seriously gonna give a coaching advantage to anyone when you’re playing against pop?
@@emilularu8903 And in the sense that anything can happen of course they had an opportunity to win, but I mean that was one of the most one-sided finals matchups in recent history. I think claiming he had a great chance to win is being pretty disingenuous to that spurs team too that had won 3 rings before that series already.
@@jeffreyware7808 I’m not saying they were favored I’m asking people to stop calling his teammates bums when that couldn’t be further from the truth. Lebron’s bigs broke even with TD. And need we mention 2011, or 2014
These lists don't mean anything if Kobe's not in top 10 what a joke what a disappointment you guys need to learn how to study and respect the game of basketball
All-time team:
Center: Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Guard: Pistol Pete
Other 3: LeBron James Larry Bird Bernard King
I personally have LeBron over Jordan as the GOAT, but it is not based on longevity. It is based on the overall contribution that LeBron makes to every game as compared to the overall contribution that Jordan made to every game. I believe that directly scoring individually is typically overrated, because it does not take into consideration that assists were recorded because a bucket was DEFINTELY scored off of a pass. Jordan scored more on his own, but he averaged less assists than LeBron. Magic Johnson scored less on his own that lots of guys, but his passes were the reason that his team scored.
Another factor that is typically "written off" is the idea of comparing players contributions in different eras. I believe that looking at "per 100 possessions" statistics gives a fairly solid basis for comparing players and teams in different eras. If we develop ratings for players that are comparable, we are also able to start comparing teams. This allows for comparing competition, especially when it comes to the Finals competition.
I developed a methodology for giving players an overall contribution rating that involves the basic statistics on a "per 100 possessions" basis. I developed my own Top 10 players list based on this criteria, but I only included the highest-rated players who won multiple championships in the Top 10. Here is the list, with a little more explanation of the methodology following the list:
1) LeBron James: Basic Rtg = 63.5, Advanced Rtg = 64.1, 10 Finals, 4 rings
2) Michael Jordan: Basic Rtg = 62.2, Advanced Rtg = 62.8, 6 Finals, 6 rings
3) Wilt Chamberlain: Basic Rtg = 61.5, Advanced Rtg = 62.0, 6 Finals, 2 rings
4) Magic Johnson: Basic Rtg = 59.8, Advanced Rtg = 60.4, 9 Finals, 5 rings
5) Shaquille O'Neal: Basic Rtg = 58.6, Advanced Rtg = 60.2, 6 Finals, 4 rings
6) Tim Duncan: Basic Rtg = 56.7, Advanced Rtg = 59.7, 6 Finals, 5 rings
7) Larry Bird: Basic Rtg = 56.7, Advanced Rtg = 57.7, 5 Finals, 3 rings
8) Hakeem Olajuwon: Basic Rtg = 55.1, Advanced Rtg = 57.2, 3 Finals, 2 rings
9) Kareem A. Jabbar: Basic Rtg = 54.2, Advanced Rtg = 56.6, 10 Finals, 6 rings
10) Steph Curry: Basic Rtg = 56.3, Advanced Rtg = 56.5, 6 Finals, 4 rings
Here's a simplistic description of my methodology:
1) I decided to use the "Per 100 possessions" statistics to level the playing field across different eras of basketball.
2) I'm using the basic statistics that actually relate to scoring points.
3) Those statistics fit into two categories for me: Points-based or Possessions-based.
4) The Points-based statistics are Points scored directly and Assists. These are directly related to the points scored in a game.
5) The Possessions-based statistics are: Rebounds, Steals, Blocks, and Turnovers. These are indirectly related to the points scored in a game.
6) The points scored per 100 possessions are a direct statistic. The assists per 100 possessions were be multiplied by a value and added to the points scored directly by a player.
7) The net possessions statistic can also be assigned a value in terms of the points they would typically represent. Their value in the calculation is lower, because each possession only produces scoring around 50% of the time (I picked one "points per possession" value to apply equally to all players regardless of era).
8) I have a "basic" rating and also an "advanced" rating that factors in the Defensive Rating and the True Shooting percentage.
Guys like Jerry West, Bill Russell, Kobe Bryant, Julius Erving, and Kevin Durant are in the next 10. For being in the Top 20, a player needed to be the lead-player or co-lead player on at least one championship winning team. Even with only the accomplishments so far, Giannis and Jokic were in the Top 20. Their ratings are so good that it is unlikely they will drop out of the Top 20 even when their career statistics are lower in future years.
What is additionally useful for having a methodology is that it allows you to see what the "inherent talent level" is for any team based on who the top 6 minutes-getters are (starting 5 plus the team's 6th man). That is where meaningful conclusions can be drawn about the outcomes of Finals series. For example, Michael Jordan's Bulls teams in the 2nd three-peat were among the most "inherently talented" in the history of the NBA. They were huge favorites to win when you compare them to their competition using the calculation above for the rosters and then factor in the team defensive rating for each squad. Comparatively, LeBron played as the underdog for most of his Finals appearances. The Warriors teams, especially with Durant, were among the other best teams in the history of the NBA. It is important to look at who was on the floor for each team in the Finals. If Kyrie and Love hadn't been injured in some of those Cavs-Warriors Finals, the Cavs would have had a much better chance of winning. Those guys don't make contributions from the bench.
When I compared the "inherent talent" scores for the six Michael Jordan Bulls teams in the Finals (and their opponents) and then compared to the LeBron James opponents in the Finals (when he lost), Jordan's teams went from heavy favorites to heavy underdogs for at least two of the series. The inherent talent on both teams makes a world of difference when it comes to the outcomes of championship series. I don't think Jordan's teams would have won 6 championships as heavy underdogs for two of the series and as "evenly matched" for three more series. One other thing about the Finals is that I would knock LeBron more for his Finals performance against the Mavs (as compared to Jordan) if Jordan had actually been in a Finals at that age. The reality is that Jordan hadn't even made it to the Finals yet at that age.
The point is that it is worth figuring out how to compare players and teams throughout history when ranking them. I appreciate the defensive prowess argument for Bill Russell, for example. Nevertheless, Bill Russell's defensive rating doesn't completely offset how low his offensive contribution was comparatively. He is in my Top 15, but he just didn't make enough overall contribution to be in my Top 10.
If there is any remaining question about the impact of LeBron James and his overall game, take a look at how much team records changed every time he went to a team or left a team. There was an immediate and major impact every time. The overall quality of player difference between Jordan and LeBron is small. I have LeBron with the edge. However, in addition to making a greater overall contribution, LeBron has done it for almost twice as long as Jordan when you realize Jordan only had 11 seasons of elite basketball. Longevity is the icing on the cake that was already baked.