Over The Horizon Super Radars - Australia, U.S., China, Russia
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- Опубліковано 18 кві 2024
- OTHR - Backscatter coverage in the Indo-Pacific: Current state and future developments.
References:
Australian Department of Defence
U.S. Department of Defense
Thx mate! We as a country are rather clever when we want to be! Cheers
Thanks, Ken.
Do we need more of these?
I was aware of the Jindalee Over The Horizon Radar from media articles and from being in Army Reserve Signals in the late 80s to early 90s. Later on in the 90s I was installing wardrobes and home offices in people's homes around Melbourne and I happened to do some work for Defence types as well as Telstra engineers and I would ask them what they were working on? The reply usually came back as "a communications project up North."
"Jindalee?" I would enquire? I would get some rather shocked looks as if to say "How does this Carpenter dude know about this project when none of my friends or family does?" I would then explain that I used to be in Army Reserve Signals so I pay attention to Defence projects and that I had read about the Jindalee OTHR in the newspapers as well as in my Father's copy of Engineer's Australia magazine. All you need do then is put two and two together and you have a fairly good chance of being correct.
I one even met a woman who was a part of Z Force, awarded the Order of Australia Medal and who had dated Captain Peacock!
But that is all another story. 😊
Mark from Melbourne Australia 🇦🇺
As an audio-visual technician I've done work on RAN and RAAF bases and quite a lot of police facilities, and being a bit of an armchair enthusiast I sometimes asked what might have been considered as some fairly nosey questions about various sensitive subjects. Occasionally I received a quiet nod/wink to indicate that I was broadly correct about something, but no more than that. More usually it was a straightforward "sorry, can't talk about that mate". Learned a lot of interesting things over the years though, sometimes as much by what couldn't be talked about as from the "public knowledge" stuff. :)
This was most interesting to me. With the current area's covered, I think we should have a new 4th radar pointing east to cover the southern Pacific approaches to Australia.
As I understand things that is being done.
@@shaunarmstrong8594 Project number: AIR2025 Phase 6 not sure on details. Look East from Longreach. Not sure how south it looks
Remember, JORN is a doppler radar. It only detects objects moving towards or away from the radar, the faster the better.
Greetings from Perth W.A. Kudos on a great OTH Radar primer. You found the sweet spot between all aspects and I felt a "thanks mate" was in order!
Much appreciated. Yes, with a video on this topic one can easily go too far down the technical path.
Growing up in Alice you could go out and visit that second site as it wasn’t far from town. Having that in the backyard alongside pine gap always made us wonder how much a nuke target out little town would’ve been/if the soviets/china ever came knocking.
I’ve been waiting for this video - very interesting
Thanks.
This was fantastic. Thank you so much
No worries. Thank you.
Love your work mate, keep it up!
Thanks. Much appreciated.
I used to study engineering in early 2000s. I remember i used to speak to a rf engineer. He told that Duga-1 used to be over the horizon early warning missile detection system.
How that radar worked , phased array is able to steer radio beam.
Low frequencies are grood are reflecting from earth and ionospere.
This beam was steered directly at sky over us ICBM sites.
And when rocket is passing though ionospere the big amount of hot gasses and fumes are changing properties of ionospere. And by analysing the data they could tell that rocket just passed though ionospere.
It was used as early detection together with optical satellites , or in case sat coms are out.
As i understand that radar had nothing to do with stealth planes , it sole purpose was analysing the ionospere over the USa .
Later USSR economy couldn't sustain such expensive project.
Dam , this project is one mesmerizing thing.
Russian woodpecker, was glad to see the end of that noise. Ham radio operators myself included would increase our amplifiers up to 1 KW and turn our Yagi towards Ukraine. They were using 10 MW so our signal might have been noticeable above the Cosmic Background Noise . lol
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duga_radar
the antennas they used were astonishing.
I worked at Telstra during the Jinalee years and I would read the Telecom Engineers were struggling with this project.
@@phillipdyson2689 hi i got somewhat confused. You took a directional antenna connected to 1kw transmitter and was sending signals towards it . as i understand that times internet wasn't used much and , not much known about this object , what was you trying to do , was you trying to make some kind of contact with it ?
And yagi antenna fo 7 MHz should be quiet big. Had used some kind of tuner with it ? Coz as i understand yagi antenna consists of driven element thats a usual dipole , reflector and a director.
And from my estimations of only driver element should be 20 meters long.
Since studied engineering more than 15 years ago , and not much had left in my head
The Russian Woodpecker was notorious for wandering into the 40-meter ham band. Do the Australian and American systems have a policy that keeps them away from active frequency bands-particularly amateur, aviation and marine?
and a few other bands
Good question. I don't know.
Yes, there are excluded frequencies and bands for the Australian one. That doesn't apply to the Chinese one, it lands where it will.
Given the importance of radio communication in aviation and maritime patrol, and in operations like mine sites/drilling rigs, and given the fact that we're a big island with no land bridge that generates a lot of its wealth by extracting stuff from underground, I would place a fair bet that JORN is specifically designed/operated so as to prevent interference on such civilian and military frequencies. The opposite of the Soviet approach, basically. :)
Thanks for that.
No worries.
Another clear and concise briefing.
Thank you, appreciated.
Thanks for another thorough yet succinct briefing, fingers crossed JORN sites will also be deemed worthy of NASAMs coverage at the very least. Very keen for your analysis of the National Defence Strategy and Integrated Investment Program released earlier this week, the $ indicated for long range strike and area defence systems following Bidens' announcement of a US - JAP - AUS missile network were encouraging, cheers.
Thanks, much appreciated. I'll certainly take a look at the topic suggestion.
Jorn detects all missiles ad tracks them, hypersonics is a big one that it can detect and track.
JORN is being added to the Aegis combat systems of Australia USA, Japan is what he means
OUTSTANDING
Thank you.
A new Oz subscriber.
Much appreciated.
We where working on the Jindalee while I was in the raaf in the late sixties.
great stuff
was hoping you would touch on what types of defences they have to protect them from attack.
Thank you.
Given that backscatter is influenced by solar and other cosmic weather phenomena, I wonder what the role of solar observatories halo orbiting the L1 point, like NASA's DSCOVR, ESA's SOHO and ISRO's Aditya L1 can be in providing data to fine-tune our backscatter systems. Do we have good enough mathematical or heuristic models to be able to predict somewhat the effect of solar weather on the ionosphere and can we use it to fine-tune backscatter systems?
Excellent question. I can't answer that. Hopefully someone who watches the briefing can enlighten us.
Australia learned to turn down the system and helps with backscatter, they say especially at night the backscatter is worse. problem with Australia is you never learn all it's secret tech unless they want you too.
BZ well done
Thanks. Much appreciated. Haven't heard "BZ" for a while.
Thank you for this presentation. A few days ago I was wondering what happened to the Jindalee radar.
I don't think you'd be alone on that. The original radar, near Alice Springs, is now Radar 3 in the fully operational JORN system.
Lol i keep up to date with it, it is getting or already has a special sapphire clock a Australian invention that can keep time accuracy for thousand years and will make clarity improvements to JORN by thousand times better. AI to track and identify all it's targets also.
With 100K down on military and marine applicants in 2023 probably need these more than anything
NASA/JPL has a webpage that shows the status of its Deep Space Network. Is there any place we could go to find out the status and operating frequencies of these over the horizon radars. It'd be an interesting way to monitor radio propagation.
Any chance you could put these out as a podcast?
Let me look into that.
Thank you for the briefing.
The way it was told to me, if you get a day where the conditions are perfect, you can watch the movements of every Junk on Hong Kong harbour. Trouble is, that's about one day in a thousand. Once every 3 or 4 years.
The Russian Woodpecker systems were interesting. The Americans played around with this stuff up in the DEW line, up in Canada. They also did some experiments with high energy / power transmissions going more or less straight up. What they were doing, has never been revealed, but it seemed they were trying to mess with or disturb the ionosphere in some way. We're talking very high energy signals and very odd frequencies and wave-forms. Clearly, they were up to something, but they didn't tell us what. To the best of my knowledge, all that stuff ended about the end of the Cold War.
We also have the very low freq radio tower at North West Cape. There was another one in Sale, Vic, but they've torn that down, so NW Cape and Pine Gap are the two big (as in important ) US installations now.
Things like Jindalee, they're not useless. They do provide a truly eye-opening capability at times, but they're not reliable. You can't depend on the thing working at the exact moment you need it. They are a useful tool, but they're a little bit like reading tea-leaves or tarot cards. Like remote viewing, or men who stare at goats ~ they can sometimes give you critical information you wouldn’t have got any other way. But they sometimes give you garbage too, or more important, they often give you nothing when you most need them.
Haha yea sorry mate you are about 20 years behind in this tech the way you speak it is unreliable like reading tea leaves. JORN is so good it is added to US early warning missile detection system. JORN being connected to AEGIS battle systems of USA and Japan. JORN being connected to Australia new battle and detection system Curalle or something.
Why everytime a Chinese ship enters Australian waters and our government say they know and have been tracking it for days..
Very interesting..thank you.
🇦🇺🇦🇺🇺🇦🇺🇦🦘🦘🦘💪
Thanks. Much appreciated.
It’s a great system, something all Australians should be proud, and aware of. The coming decades will be the most dangerous time faced by Australia, and her allies. We need to educate our country on this fact, and perhaps rethink the current focus on undermining our national cohesion, unity, and togetherness no matter how politically advantageous that may have previously been.
Dangerous against who? Is Australia looking for war with someone?
What do you think of a professional distributed military grade wispr network? Would it be able to offer a long range tracking of aircraft?
Also what about hypersonic missiles, how good is any radar in detection of these systems.
Australian JORN can detect hypersonics and when China flew DF21 Australia and USA said they tracked it. Why JORN is part of USA early warning missile detection system. probably Pine Gap use it.
As per Brigadier Arvind Dahananjayan, India is also developing its OHTR technology. Starting from a surface wave system followed by a skywave/backscatter system. Currently at prototype realization stage, they're going for two different antenna designs. One is the monopole like the Australian and American systems you showed. The other is a log periodic wire antenna. Once the prototype is done, they'll design and make a larger system for actual deployment. I guess it'll be deployed in the early 2030s. Target range is 2000 km initially for the backscatter system. No idea of the operating frequency bands.
One such radar on Nicobar islands should be able to track targets all the way down to Sunda straits. Although to be able to see beyond that to Lombok straits would require range extension.
Thanks for the comment. I would have included India if it had an operational system. Makes sense that they would develop one. Nicobar sounds like a good spot.
Australia JORN can detect along Korean peninsula and also reports it detected missile launches in Iraq during the Iraq war. Public 3000km is a untruth lol.
The UK appears to have one or two on Cyprus
Ionospheric bounce for radar sounds a little sketchy to me, in terms of dependability. But it might provide a piece of the puzzle if integrated with other detection systems.
Only because you have no clue on it really and every country including USA are decades behind Australia in this tech.
Thank you for the video, a project I have always found interesting from my Telecom days in the 80s. It was unfortunate they turned it off during the MH370 flight ??
Thank you. Yes, that seems to be the story.
Seen the one in WA from the air easily spotted.
Hard to miss it!
One 100th of the transmitted energy is reflected down from transmission. One 100th of the energy impacting the target is reflected. One 100th of the reflected energy is refracted down to the receiver. Therefore, the signal processing required is enormous to detect this minuscule signal. However, think about the large amount of energy that continues into the ionosphere. What could that detect?
You mean we can use the refracting 99% of that signal for space situational awareness?
JORN has detected missiles been fired during Iraq war, weather plays a big part in what it see;
Integration is the magic pudding.
If they were destroyed how fast could they be repaired or rebuilt?
chuck a few hills hoists up with some twin and earth and she'll be up and running in no time mate.
Nice info, cheers. But funny that all these millions invested and they still can't stop the boats. Haha..
Thanks, much appreciated.
Lots of reverb.. sound could be improved
I've often wondered how an airliner not on any sort of approved flight path, could fly from the direction where our (Australia) main threat is located, all the way down the west coast of the country and disappear, and this super expensive radar didn't pick up a thing.........
Would of picked it up lol. problem is JORN detects hundreds of thousands of targets or more all the time and problem is identification and tracking them all.
JORN mainly looking for a invasion force coming towards Australia and not just 1 tiny object.
If go watch tracker radars you get a idea of what it see.
As Australian government say every time a Chinese navy ship comes to Australian waters.. oh we been tracking it for days before even reached our waters.
It’s quite possible that it did pick up the aircraft, but that information would be classified.
The capabilities of these types of radar installations are highly sensitive. Revealing the location of a missing aircraft may provide too much insight into the radar capability to be approved for release.
@@TitchyNZ Yea true Australia top secret on it's capabilties, i have heard a few stories from people who say worked in the field. it is getting a special sapphire clock to intensify it's clarity of detection and AI to help track all it's targets..
they may be relatively easy to target. But they don't look like they'd be very easy to destroy. They're so big and spread out, you'd need a lot of precision ordinance to actually store the thing. Or more realistically, a nuclear weapon.
Hi, Electronics & Communications technician here. You're overlooking two things. The first is that the distributed antenna elements must operate within fairly precise physical/locational parameters in order for the entire array to function as designed; note the very over-engineered looking arrangement of guy-wires securing the fragile receiver elements in place in some of the photos. If any element is damaged or allowed to move out of its allotted position, the range/resolution of the array is immediately degraded.
The second is blast damage; an OTHR array is not like a tank or an ammo bunker or a reinforced command post. Radar equipment is notoriously sensitive to blast damage, you don't need a direct hit or to entirely puncture the thing with shrapnel to render it useless. The blast wave from a TBM or cruise missile landing anywhere within a couple of hundred metres of such an array would probably wreak a fair bit of havoc immediately, and repeated close strikes would make it completely nonfunctional in short order.
But all of this ignores the whole point of operating such an array in the first place, which is to receive early warning of such long-range threats and deal with them well before they become a problem.
There is here on UA-cam a short video of someone exploring the defunct radar site in Ukraine. Sorry I don’t remember the name.
I've heard about it. The site is within the Chernobyl restricted zone I think.
Thankyou, when the Chinese OTHR scans the SW Pacific it blats about 200KHz of bandwidth.
Interesting. Thanks.
Lol poor Chinese are decade or more behind Australia OTHR system. Russia also way behind too.
JORN scientists can tell by the signals their systems are putting out....
You are wrong on JORN detection range and what you say is only publicly knowledge and are reports it detected missile launches and explosions during Iraq war. Even a piece where President Bush said JORN would play a part in USA early detection ballistic missile early warning system.
Also the new OTHR USA is building near Guam is using JORN technology that was sold to USA and other countries in the 5 eyes alliance, netting Australia 200 million in trade.
JORN scientists also say even if parts of JORN are taken out the system still can detect and that just it's detection range is reduced. is said they need to take the whole thing out to stop it.
Russia the new one is named 29B6 Konteynor Over-the Horizon-Radar Array and was just hit by Ukraine causing damage to over 200m of the radar system.
Did JORN detect and track MH370 in 2014. Top secret?
Who can say?
I wondered that too. It was a big fat target right in the footprint, but apparently not.
It was late at night so perhaps everyone had gone to bed.
JORN detects as far as Iraq. known to detect along Korean peninsula. now publicly only states detects 3000km, now go look on flight radar from Australia to Malaysia and see how many sea and air targets are flying and sailing and tell me how 1 plane is pointed out as special.
Australia is fitting AI or has last few tears to help I.D and track all these.
JORN main goal is to detect a invading force coming towards Australia.
Yes it did. That's why they say it was not working at that time.
Bullshit they know what happened. They just don't want to say. Top Secret.
Doesn't work in the Kimberley .
The emitted energy can cook Kangaroos from 50 metres plus ! I suggested perhaps a Fence ? That was a stupid idea ( needed to be a plastic fence Only ) I said whattabout signage then - Natives may be attracted to the smell of cooking-roo ?
Another stupid idea apparently hahahah. As a Sparkie I worked out of Laverton ( 5 Months ) during Construction ,and North of Longreach for a whole 2 weeks ! ( their drinking water was bluddy Foul, despite a $200,000 water-treatment plant installed - that just put chlorine into it, but it still tasted and smelt Foul.... )
If this is designed to track missiles traveling at supersonic speeds its hard to believe this wouldn't have captured MH370 crossing into the Indian Ocean. Being 100x bigger in size and traveling at half the speed. With that said I can also see why they wouldn't provide information on its whereabouts as you shouldn't be spying on your negbiours and allies in the first place.
JORN detects hundreds of thousands of targets, one little jet was like seeing a needle in a haystack, .maybe if came down the West too close they might of checked it out as suspicious.
They also say depends if it was looking that way at the time also as they say it looks at certain grids at a time.
Australia tech is worse then Area 51 secrets as kept top secret lol..
So how did it go tracking MH370?
He did say unclassified 😂
Not well
It did. But they won't say. Security risk.
Darn wooden boats 😂
Indeed.
During construction they suggested nothing Less than 1 metre square of steel/tin could be Detected. I suggested perhaps provide 1 metre cooking Woks for free ! No-one else thought that was funny....
Were these systems operational during the time of the MH370 disappearance? What did they tell us?
I know the question was asked, but I don't recall the public response.
I believe it was down for maintenance at the time. That is what was said.
I had the same question. Even if it was operational I doubt anything would be released that could show capability. But the data would end up in the search anyway.
So 1980s
Waves REFLECT off the ionosphere boundary layer.
Waves only REFRACT when they pass through a medium but are bent in a different direction.
It is generally agreed the process in the ionosphere is refraction. But HF waves do reflect off the ocean and targets.
Geostationary satellites offer the best surveillance over a large area of the earth's surface. Australia must develop a satellite launching capability.
we have a space force and no satellites or rockets
Indeed, but as I say in the briefing OTHR offer capabilities other terrestrial systems don't. Need a combination of both.
NZ has the capability and experience with satellite launching from rockets, as per Rocket Lab. NZ could use it's experience to help Australia develop their own launching capability.
@@Manawatu_Al2844 I have been following Rocket Lab.
@@Manawatu_Al2844 Australia was the third country to launch a satellite from its own soil. Clearly, capabilities have diminished.
China and Russia have a long way to go to catch up with Australia.
JORN does have a very good reputation.
Read a article that said Australian JORN scientists can tell Russia and China are years behind and can tell by their signals their systems put out. Russia one still interferes with radios at certain frequency
Imagine Australia having this magnificent radar yet illegal immigrants on shitty old boats still get here undetected.
Won't detect wood or non-metallic composites. Even LOS radars have a hard time catching those.
They are detected and given the royal welcome with free houses.
That's why we have maritime patrols. We have done a great job of stopping unauthorised border crossing, unlike the USA.
@@Secretlyanothername Well, water borders (sea borders, not riverine delta) are much easier to defend against illegal immigration, compared to land borders. We Indians are also able to easily defend against sea-borne illegal immigrants, yet the big illegal immigration problem our country faces from Bangladesh is via the land border. Even electrified fencing and motion sensors aren't enough, though manned by the world's largest border security force (BSF). The Bangladeshis still manage to get in.
Because JORN detects hundreds of thoussand's of targets and they are putting in AI target identification and tracking system in to help as humans can not keep up with it all.
But as said small boats do not show up or some wood.
We used to own pro fishing boats and our 30 foot aluminuim reef fishing boat barely showed up on radar. i once worked on a mates boat and my old man was in ours 1 mile away and it never showed on their radar.
One time anchored in a shipping lane a container ship nearly ran us over and more proof small boats do not show up.
Flat earth
they dont do a good job at detecting illegal entry considering those 3 boats that dropped imigrants off and dissapeared recently.
Maritime.patrol aircraft with the right type of high tech high resolution doppler radar will pick these guys up easily. However, the aircraft have to be patrolling.