Defending Calvinism: Unconditional Election
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- Опубліковано 3 січ 2024
- Join us for the newest episode of Apologia Radio in which we continue in our program series called, "Defending Calvinism." Today, Jeff Durbin and the team talk about 'Unconditional Election.' Does God choose to save based upon His own will and sovereign grace or does it depend on the creatures works, will, or belief?
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TIMESTAMPS
3:30 intro theme starts
5:13 show starts, Acts 13: ?
9:40 explanation of the Defending Calvinism series
10:42 EAN announcements
14:35 ion layer stuff -get energy
20:40 Heritage defense -protect your fam
22:38 short update on the Durbins
24:00 intro to the topic
33:30 uncondition election: what does that mean?
34:29 discomfort with things in the Bible
36:24 how does God save?
40:25 coffee & knives
44:18 resource for further study
45:00 talking through Scripture: Matthew 11:25-30 (God chooses)
52:20 Matt 22:14, John 6:37, John 10, (everyone is unable, God draws His people, He knows them)
1:02:34 addressing some comments: complaining against God's choice, grace, tradtions
1:07:21 justice, grace & what people want
1:11:36 Romans 9
1:21:22 more resources for study
1:22:22 John 13:18, 15:16, Acts 2:39, 2:47, 13:36-48,
1:24:18 why evangelize?
Thank you!
Legend
These need to be in the description
It's acts 13:46-47,48
@@withtimecomesgrace That would be handy!
At 49 minutes, he compares God's grace to us like a waterfall washing over us. This is how I've always shared what I felt like when God gave me life. It was amazing.
Silly analogy at the very least.
Interesting - I always admired people's stories about their bright moment of their salvation and the big dynamic that it instantly had on them and felt like I must have missed something along the way. I can't even track down the time when I was saved, however, I grew up in a good Christian family and "somewhere" in there - not like a waterfall, but as a constantly flowing stream, God saved me. Since then, in my adult years here, I understand God giving me life on a continual basis that I never had the concept of. I would never have thought that that would be the way it would be ( I am just now starting to actually understand my Bible and exegesis), but God in his sovereignty brings us into things that only he can provide us life and the way out or through. Thanks for your post👍Bless you sir
Did you choose this?
Who wants to see a debate between L Flowers and Jeff Durbin on Calvanism? ✋️
Me. Jeff wouldn't stand a chance.
Debates are worthless. No one learns anything and everyone is just digging in and arguing. Calvinists love debates bc they're so rivalrous.
That would be great! Or how about just a discussion?
Dr. James White is going to debate him in Texas either in March or May.
March 7th according to his website
I love the opening part where it says the gospel is not a suggestion, it is a command! So true and powerful. Great work brothers.
But I can only obey His command if He predestined me too right?
@@eugenenunn4900 we are all commanded to obey him, but we see that not everyone does until he brings light and understanding into their souls into their minds and they are regenerated
@@eugenenunn4900which only brings light onto the fact that you’re not neutral but in rebellion against god…. Embrace your rebellion or turn to god, and be saved.
I'm so happy this show is back. I've missed it, and was actively looking forward to this day during the whole break. It's perfect for getting through the January dol-drums.
Once I got a grasp on The Doctrines of Grace, God showed me how amazing his grace is because nobody at all deserves Salvation!!!!
Thank you for your commitment to consistently raising Scripture to it's rightful place. Blessings dear brothers much love from an old married couple.
Context and Calvinism do not go together.
Although I am Reformed and believe that the view of election you shared is the Biblical doctrine. I just don't call myself a calvinist, not that I think it's wrong. It just seems strange. Its a biblical concept so I just say I'm Christian. Thankful for your ministry. God bless.
Some people find the term Calvinist as too much of a labeling term. I also say that I believe in the doctrines of grace.
Glad to see Jeff back, glory to the most high!
I absolutely love your introduction!!
This was so good- thank you!
This video blessed me. Thank you.
Good show guys!
I have another question for Calvinists. Why did Jesus weep? I mean if the people He was weeping for were not the elected people given to Him and He was successfully bringing in His elect which was something He could be happy about, why did He weep for the nonelect if they were not His people? Why didn’t He just focus on rejoicing in bringing in His people?
He had to play the part, bro.
@@Polimuni oh I see. So when Jesus looked on folks with compassion, he was just acting?
@@Polimunithat doesn’t sufficiently answer the question. I want a Calvinist explanation.
God is angry with the wicked every day but does not delight in their destruction, although He is glorified through it. Though I cannot understand the “emotions” of God fully, Jesus is truly God and truly Man. He feels the same emotions we do as touching his humanity. Do you ever rejoice and weep at the same time? I know I do. My father died of cancer a couple years ago and I rejoiced knowing he went to be with the Father and wept bitterly knowing I would never hug my dad again. Is it possible Jesus was heartbroken over what the world He created had become? Is it possible he was “weeping with those who [wept]”? There are many ways to deal with this from the “Calvinist” perspective.
@@monew632 Well, “Molly”, that doesn’t make sense at all.
First of, yes, God is not delighted in the destruction of the wicked, but hey, he is the one who ends up not choosing them.
It is contradictory, let’s rephrase this situation:
“I’m god, I chose a, b, and c; I didn’t choose x, y and z; all of this happened before the creation of these beings. I’m fully aware of who I chose and who I didn’t choose, still, im going to cry because of the wicked ones, the ones who I didn’t choose”.
Doesn’t make a bit of sense, “Molly”; and also, your father’s allegory serves no real purpose.
main segment starts around 24:00
This is so good! 🔥 🔥
I have yet to encounter any fellow believers in my community and local church that understand reformed theology or the doctrines of grace. Its frustrating when my bible study group constantly doesn't understand my responses to study questions. They all are so kind and I love them very much, but sometimes I want to say...your view of God isn't big enough and your pride has not been crushed by that view.
That’s because God has determined for 98% of Christian’s to hold to some form of free will doctrine. Not sure why, but it’s his decree for the vast majority of the elect from the early church fathers and on to hold faulty doctrine.
True! Thankfully my Sunday school usually just asks me to explain stuff like this but they’re all nominally reformed as Presbyterians but needs some digging in! When I did unconditional election it took 3 weeks to really to mine all the nuggets out of Romans 9.
@@cloudx4541lol!!! Darn unconditional election I swear gets me every time!
@@ReformedlyGuyI’ll have to agree with you. You really have to mine those nuggets to get it to fit the 5 points
Who are you O'man to question?
I have to admit, and I've said this before, that hearing the doctrines of grace for the first time angered me. It was 180° opposite of what I believed regarding soteriology. Like Jeff, I read the text, in context, and couldn't deny what was there. I've since changed my view and now I'm part of the reformed camp. I now embrace the doctrine I once hated.
Excellent Truth
That new intro😮💨🔥🔥
FINALLY AN APP🎉🎉
Amen, Brothers!
❤amen 🙏 thank you. Love the consistency of the Bible ❤
1:10:45 - 1:10:59 I love this- watched it like 20 times
St Thomas Aquinas approves this message, as you will read in Summa Theologica Part 1, Question 23, Article 5.
I just got told that Romans 9 has nothing to do with salvation. My mind is blown on how that chapter could have to with anything other than God's sovereign choice of salvation.
Trying take off your glasses and looking again at 9.
@@IHIuddy He is quite correct; the election of Romans 9 is not that of salvation. Go back to the story it refers to in Genesis 27-33 and you will see that Esau (Edom) never served Jacob (Israel)- In fact the person of Jacob calls himself Edoms servant. however; the nation of Edom definitively served the nation of Israel during the reign of Solomon. You have to read it in context, or you'll just read it as some guy tells you to (and could end up thinking it's saying that God actually elected them to Heaven and Hell instead of the foundation of the nations which is what is actually is saying if you care about accuracy).
@@paulring86 you read his comment wrong?
Show me your faith without works, and I shall show you my faith by my works.”
Sincere question. What do you do with
Matt9:22, Luke 8:48, Luke17:19, Luke 18:42. Over and over Jesus says “Thy faith” hath saved thee, healed thee, etc
We don't have to "do" anything with those verses. They are correct. We are saved through our faith. Thr question is where does that faith come from? It comes from God (Ephesians 2:8).
@@slash903it’s the whole thing not just faith. Zoom out with your glasses on.
Yes - most Calvinists don’t properly look at the verb tenses and structure of that sentence to know that the gift is not the faith, but the entire phrase “you have been saved by grace through faith” - common misapplication of the Greek verb tenses.
They ignore them is what they do with them. Just like they ignore the general revelation (Ps. 19 & Rom. 1:20-21) and the special revelation that God offers to the unsaved PRIOR to us receiving Christ, and verses like John 6:45 and John 12:32. The Calvinist mishandling of scripture is honestly mind blowing!
I smiled the whole time you guys were talking about the cool, beard, cigar, flanels clavinist club.
So funny how we always do this.
We always fall into SOME form of idolatry. 😂
God bless you guys from Canada.
Love this serie ❤
I’ve found verses that say we are saved by grace( Gods unmerited favor). Still looking for a verse that says we are saved by choosing grace . The Bible teaches that faith is not of ourselves, we are told that we didn’t choose him but he chose us. The Bible teaches that it is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. I know deep down in my heart I have something to contribute to my salvation ,can someone please help give me a reason to boast?
Faith isnt something inputed by God in order to receive salvation, but rather salvation is accessed by Gods grace because of your faith. In other words, the gift of salvation is assessable simply by faith. Thats the gift. That you simply have to believe instead of earning. You never earn a gift. The early church taught that exclusively for the first 400 years of church history
@@mikealdridge5424 so am I the author of my faith? Or is my faith the result of Gods grace .or does God look at my faith and then give me grace.
@@Terrylb285 no you are not the author of your faith. Your faith is not the result of Gods grace and neither is gods grace a result of your faith. You know, this concerns me greatly that salvation is so misunderstood. Christ died for all and all sin was dealt with on the cross. All men are forgiven. Sin has been dealt with. Therefore, the only thing that damns someone is their rejection of the gospel, not their sin. That’s Gods grace! That we’ve been forgiven. Now your response to that gift is to put your faith in Christs finished work. Period.
@@mikealdridge5424 EPH 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith ,and this is not from yourselves,it is the gift of God. But thx for the gentleness and respect you showed.
@@Terrylb285that just explains exactly what he just said…..
Listening
Question to Calvinists: what do you tell a person who asks“how can i be a Christian?”
Do you tell them:
1) believe and you will find out on judgement day if you were chosen or not
Or
2) do you lead them in a prayer of salvation like other Christians do?
As a Calvinist, neither. I tell them “repent and believe in the Gospel” as Jesus commanded. 1) it’s not my place to tell them to find out on judgement day. If they repent and believe today, they have assurance today, there is no waiting for judgment day. 2) salvation doesn’t come by prayer, that would be a work. Scripture tells us that salvation is by faith alone, not by works, so that no one can boast. Therefore, I tell all people, repent and believe for the kingdom of God is at hand. In this life and in the next Jesus is Lord and every knee shall bow and tongue confess as such. Look upon Him, His righteousness, His sacrifice, His atonement, His forgiveness, His love, His grace, His Peace and seek first His kingdom. Love him with all of your being and love your neighbors, especially your enemies, more than you love yourself. Above all, I say it again, repent and believe. Faith ALONE in Christ, who He is, what he did, and what he will do and you shall be saved.
3. We tell them to repent and believe the gospel.
@@SolusChristus3thank you
@@kennalugon3724thank you
@@kennalugon3724thank you!
I have family and many church members who are Calvinists so I try to be respectful and patient.
I am more of a Provisionist.
I am interested in asking anyone who is a Calvinist this question.
Is God capable of choosing to sin if He wanted to?
If He is, what would it take to recognize a sin committed by God? Can God violate His own standard?
I dont believe He ever would violate His own standard because sin is not even in His nature, but for the sake of argument, He would be free to do so if He wanted to.
He is the standard. It isn't about being able to do or not do a specific action, it is about His position as that which other things are measured against. His actions, desires and being are not defined by what is good and holy...they define goodness and holiness. Jordan Peterson conveyed a similar concept about the Bible quite well. ua-cam.com/video/WqYdAfGtLgg/v-deo.html God serves as the precondition of holiness itself.
Jeff Durbin vs. Jay Dyer debate is something id pay to watch.
As a believer who leans more on the side of Calvinism, I do have a question. If God's grace is irresistible and free will is not real, then why didn't He create us as robots? Why did Satan sin? Why did Adam sin? For my limited mind, I can only conclude that God created Satan to disobey and Adam to fall. I understand the argument of His grand plan bringing more glory to Himself but when free will is completely eliminated, it is hard for me not to conclude that God is the author of evil in some capacity. And I do not believe He is bc scripture tells us otherwise. So I cannot reconcile everything. It is above my understanding but if anyone wants to answer my questions, I would be very grateful.
The Bible says evil was FOUND in Satan (Ezekiel). How could it be found in him if God created him to do evil by default? In Exodus Moses appeals to God saying that the Egyptians will thinks He (God) is MORALLY evil, and God relents from killing Israel. God does not author MORAL evil or evil actions. Get away from Calvinism and STAY away from it. It is a falsehood. For every proof text Calvinists offer, keep reading and within a few verses you’ll see man’s faith and responsibility considered by God. The Bible is best read without any labels on it. God bless you!
Deuteronomy 7:7-8 [7] It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the LORD set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, [8] but it is because the LORD loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Forward to 30:00 for the discussion.
yeah was a hard pill to swallow at first, we've had this picture of God, painted for us, of this old man who just desperately want's to save every single person, but can't do it. oh it makes him seem like a kind man, but that isn't God. But God has chosen and people and He actively saves them.
Amen brothers!!!🙏❤️.
So many people get so mad yes because they hate God but also it is major emotionalism!!!!!!
Sorry to hear that you're losing so much sleep Jeff, if the NAD patches don't work out, maybe you can do without yerba matte drip 😅
I literally just teached on romans chapter 9 in bible study and was surprised that a couple people believed that salvation isn't preordained.
Why do you teach if salvation is already preordained?
At one time we were all vessels of wrath aka children of wrath (Ephesians 2). And God's Electing Decree meets us in space and time transforming us into honorable vessels prepared for mercy. If you are a vessel of wrath or a child of wrath as we all were at one time know there is hope if you turn to Christ in Faith. Do you think your salvation is more secure in your hands or in the hands of our Sovereign Lord?? Do you think fallen humanity flexing their will is able to save more than the perfect will of God?? The Lord is the Savior. We are the hopeless sinners in need of His gracious hand to rescue us. He first loved us. He first chose us. Not we Him.
30AD
Passover
50days later
Pentecost
70Ad destruction of the temple
30AD to 70AD(40Yrs in the wilderness) God is choosing a remnant.
Will you answer the question of God sovereignty? Yes Let me ask you question Mr. Durbin. In what book or books of the Old testament can the book of Acts be understood?
Yeah, Total Depravity is what helped me, I know that I am wicked, and I know everyone else is as well, so the rest just follows naturally. the only reason people don't like it, is because they think they have some goodness, they think that people actually deserve something, but we deserve to die. Period. doesn't make you feel good, but its still true. All of life is grace.
How do you rectify 1 John 2:2 the whole world? “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
John is drawing a dichotomy between his audience (the recipient of his letter) and the rest of the elect in the world.
@@slash903 really? Because just 12 vs later…
1 John 2:15 “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”
According to your understanding of the word world it reads “love not the elect in the world neither the thing that are in the elect of the world if any man love the elect of the world the love of the father is not in him.”
I go back and forth on this. I see predestination and I also see the benefit of free will. I understand God knowing all things and picking the time of his return. If God has already chosen who will be saved does that mean others will burn by default? Or maybe some are chosen and others get in if they choose to believe. i dunno. also, doesn't the bible say that we are saved by God's grace through faith? For instance...I could start a club and only let people in who are already a chosen member or I can let people in who I have chosen and if others wanna join, they can.
Faith comes by hearing.
I know. whether it be from a church, reading the bible yourself, maybe even a Jesus movie or song. Faith by hearing the word of God. Anyway, God knowing whats going to happen makes sense tome. God choosing certain things to happen or put into play also makes sense. But choosing This person makes it and that person doesn't ...I don't know. @@louistart1173
What do you mean by benefit? Dont think son much about this. I think tradition has so brain washed us that we get this knee jerk reaction against Calvanism. I so hat calling the truth of salvation that but that’s the name most are familiar with. The biblical doctrine of salvation tells us that those who have faith in Christ were chosen or predestined before the foundations of the world. Not because of merit, but by the unconditional love and unconditional grace of God. Some of us have been chosen for destruction and others for honor. Those for destruction will never want or love God and those for honor will repent and believe and finish the race or fight of life in the faith. Salvation comes through faith alone, in Christ alone, by grace alone, and for the glory of God alone
Unfortunately they're God is Calvinism just like the Catholics God is their religion. Who are you going to follow......John Calvin or Jesus Christ?
If Leighton is ready to get back into the fight, I wonder if Steve Tassi would be willing to as well. lol
🛑🛑🛑🛑🛑🛑
In the new eschatology series
Are you going to be covering why the Thousand-Year period absolutely has to be allegory?
The only reason I ask is because I can't figure out why Satan wasn't put in chains around 70 AD and then released around 1,070 AD
I know how it's taught, I know how many times 1000 is used allegorically elsewhere, but it just seems to me that in those places where it is used allegorically it's very obvious and in Revelation it doesn't seem to be allegorical to me.
I can't even think of anything else I don't understand.
🛑🛑🛑🛑🛑🛑
Who says he had to be imprisoned in A.D. 70? My understanding is that the Millennium comes after the 7-year Tribulation, Daniel’s seventieth week, which is still on the future.
@@IslandUsurper what happens in the middle of the Great tribulation according to Daniel 9:26
Opinion: unconditional election =unconditional love.
Unconditional condemnation = Unconditional Hate. Can't have one without the other.
@@pitoshighlights2443 yet hate is not the greatest. Love is 1cor.13:13
Sooooo much scripture backs the Calvinist stance. You have to actually ignore it in order to hold to Arminianism.
💯
You don't understand the purposes of God at all if you believe Calvinism.
@@chloemartel9927can you explain that, with scripture and not with feelings?
@@jeremynethercutt206 do you not read your Bible to know the nature of God and the purposes of God for His children? It is all there. Try reading it again from cover to cover without your bias involved. I follow God not Calvin and I suggest you get to know the God of the Bible thoroughly.
@chloemartel9927 who follows Calvin? Try watching the video again without your bias and understand what Pastor Durbin is saying.
This discussion is great example of what happens when you take a cavalier approach to Biblical study and interpretation. Paul clearly summarizes the intent of Romans 9 in versus 30-32 when he talks about why the Gentiles are in and the Jews are not. If it had been about determinism, then when Paul says “what shall we say then”, he would have said something like “God has determined who is saved by sheer force of will and sovereignty and you have not right to question it”. Clearly not what he said. And, reading chapter 9 without 10 and 11 as if the original letter had the chapter breaks is also irresponsible at best.
do u deliver to the uk? wanted a top lol
For one to believe in unconditional election; one has to reject what the Bible says about people rejecting the Gospel. One cannot honestly say that they are not editing the Bible to be what they want if they believe in Unconditional Election. Jeremiah 26:4-6, Amos 2:4-5, John 3:18-19, Luke 16:19-31
*Jeff, instead of making backhanded comments about Leighton Flowers, why don't you have him on your show to discuss these issues. Please consider this... You have been invited to go on his show many times*
I have a question about calvinism and post millennialism. I came to post millennialism through this YT and I believe the church will grow until Jesus returns. But why would Christianity grow if there is predestination? Is God going to have more elect later than now?
*The people chosen "In Christ" are those who have heard and believed in the word of God and they will be predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ*
What do the Amish believe??? Can you do one on that? And the abuse within the Amish community
Pass on the N.A.D. patch. I personally normally don't look to the Joe Rogan show to find things or substances I should maybe think about putting in or on my body. I'm not a health nut. Not even close. But have watched enough of his shows to discern that his views might not line up with the Bible. Even in your clip they compared the feeling of NAD drip to DMT. His other shows talk about DMT as a good thing in my opinion. It's your show but I would think there would possibly be different sponsors. Other than axes, patches and lawyers. I say these things from a place of love. I once commented on most videos. But thanks to the Lord. He helps me control my tongue. In my heart I felt the need to speak up here.
New debate talking points:
You ain’t free
God is not a debtor
Rocks don’t respond
Ive connected salvation and election as akin to creation itself, which makes sense: only God can be the source of a miracle.
We can look at Creation and our initial reaction is "This doesn't make sense, unless God made it".
I look at my changed heart and think "This doesn't make sense, unless God made it, God did it."
Jesus said you "must be born again" which is a miracle, not a human choice.
If a miracle is required, only God can do it.
I bought your shirt “ Bad Theology Hurts People” and waiting for my pro life shirt - I erased all my r mails by mistake so I don’t know how to follow up on my pro life t shirt
Actually - in Calvinism - Election is both "Conditional" and "Unconditional"
1) Election is (per the doctrine) "Conditioned" upon a divine decree.
So in that sense it is thus "Conditional"
2) But the decree - is NOT "Conditioned" upon anything having to do with the creature or the condition thereof
Therefore - in that sense - Election is "Unconditional"
But the same is true of damnation.
The same is true of Whatsoever comes to pass
The same is true for every impulse that will come to pass within the human brain and body.
1) Every impulse that will come to pass within the human brain and body - come to pass infallibly and thus irresistibly "Conditioned" upon in infallible decree
2) And that decree is NOT conditioned upon anything having to do with the creature or the condition thereof.
Jeff, why don’t you defend Calvinism on other broadcasts?
"Thus heaven I've forfeited, I know it full well. My soul, once true to God, is chosen for hell." Karl Marx
Why would it be such a problem to think that God hasn't made "a specific people unto himself", when He's already done that in the past with the Jewish people ( a tribe, a specific "people") , i mean it's not a foreign concept as He has already set the precedent in the beginning with the Jewish people as HIS chosen. Sounds like a type and shadow as well
Jeff thinks Calvinism is a co-herent biblical system. I think it’s confusing, convoluted and non-biblical. It is far from co-herent.
The best “biblical system” is the basic good news of the gospel as God intended it to be.
Ie
“We’ve all sinned, and are separated from God. He is willing that none shall perish, that all can come to repentance. For he loved the world so much he gave is only son as an atonement for our sin, so that whoever believes in him and repents shall have eternal life.
Not the Calvinist version:
“We’ve all sinned and are separated from God so much so that you’re not able to believe because you’re what we call “totally depraved”. God sent Jesus as an atonement for the elect only. These people are the ones God chose from the beginning to be saved, and he regenerates them enabling them to believe in Jesus, then he saves them, (even though they were chosen in the first place). The good news is if you’re one of them, then you will be saved.
Now which of these 2 versions of the gospel quotes the Bible almost verbatim and which one doesn’t?
Calvanists won’t preach “their” gospel the way they believe it because they’ll say “it’s not the gospel? “.
They cover this fact by saying “we don’t know who the elect are?”.
But they can’t preach their Gospel honestly.
Flowers believe babies in the womb deserve Gods’s choosing and grace!😮 that is not mine to say!
The strawman of "Armenians don't believe God's grace is gracious enough," is ridiculous. I'm not an armenian, but don't make this a hit-piece on Christian fellowship.
Guys, by all means, post these full sessions.
But if you are going to title a video one thing, don't make that thing start 20 minutes into the start.
Maybe make two videos? One full and another just the lecture.
*Jeff the problem with your point (**48:48**) is that your god has decreed these reprobates to be reprobates. They can do nothing but hate god because they were decreed to do so, I am sure you would agree that, That is unfair, UNHOLY*
@35:00. Simple. Non- Calvinists take those same biblical concepts and interpret them differently that the Calvinist. It’s not that we ignore them we simply understand them differently and come to different conclusions.
Can someone please give one verse in scripture that equates election with salvation? There are hundreds of verses that demonstrate election is not synonymous with salvation.
Mark 13:20- And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
Ephesians 1:4-6- “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.”
John 6:44- “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day”
2 Timothy 2:10- Paul proclaimed it boldly and was persecuted for it. “I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus” Paul endured persecution so that the elect will be saved, because the elect cannot be saved without hearing and believing the gospel.
@@SolusChristus3 I’m so sorry I’m just now getting back to you. I read your comment and completely forgot to respond. Thanks for taking the time to respond. But again I’m looking for verses that equate election with salvation. Even 2 tim 2:10 you responded with says point blank that Paul wishes that the elect would obtain salvation. That wouldn’t make any sense if election means salvation. This is really important in biblical theology. If you want to argue for unconditional election, fine. You can do that. But there is no biblical argument for election equating to salvation. I know it’s shocking to say that but again, show me one verse.
Please let’s pray that Joe Rogan receives Christ as his savior
I'm confused now. If God didn't call him, didn't elect him, why be concerned if he receives Christ? Why be concerned if anyone does? It doesn't matter as its all predestined.
Because we don't know who the elect are
Christ's commissions us to go to the end of the world to preach the gospel. Rev7:9 says a great multitude from every tribe and every nation.
Why Joe ? Please don't tell me that he would be a great testimony. Celebrities are no different than a person who is not in the limelight. God saves whom he wills.
@@rudymancha5809 if God had grace enough to save you - why not Joe ?
@@savedbyGrace1234 of course he could save Joe. It's just cringe worthy to me when people name celebrities because they think that they would be great witnesses or something.Maybe you're not meaning it that way.
Good morning fellows.
This always bothers me.. there is no tunnel of time there is no multiverse possibility of options God had to work with!
People who bring their infinite stone comic ideas into the Gospel fail!
For those that haven’t watched the debate flowers fails to stay on topic as he always does!
31:55 so in other words….non-Calvinistic Soteriology is not the gospel? 🤔
There is no place for the testifying of the Holy Spirit to our spirit (Rom 8:16) in Calvinism (Calvinism is therefore Pharisaism - word without Spirit - John 5:39). There isn't because it isn't possible for anyone to get a picture of who God is Spirit to spirit (relationally instead of intellectually) under Calvinism because no-one can relate to God both as one of the Calvinist chosen and also the Calvinist unchosen (and one has to be both to receive a complete picture of God's character - since under Calvinism God clearly behaves as one God to the elect and as a different God to the non-elect). There is therefore no way to RELATIONALLY experience whether or not Calvinism is true.
In case someone reading this doesn't understand why that's a major problem remember that the bible says we have fallen minds. If there is no means to reach conclusions about God's character Spirit to spirit - relationally - that means that our understanding of God depends only on the conclusions of our fallen minds. Therefore no Calvinist conclusions can be considered authoritative - all Calvinist conclusions about God are uncertain.
*Jeff, All who believe in Christ automatically become his sheep. anyone can become his sheep, that is the good news, My Friend*
The verses being offered to defend Calvinist unconditional election here can be interpreted compatibly with both Calvinism and non-Calvinism (if you are a Calvinist and you cannot imagine how the passages in the presentation can be interpreted compatibly with non-Calvinism you can ask me to explain how). In quoting them the presenters don't ESTABLISH Calvinism. What instead Calvinists and non-Calvinists must do is search for passages of scripture which can only be made compatible with one of the two soteriological systems. I've done that - here is a bible passage WHICH CANNOT BE MADE COMPATIBLE WITH CALVINISM:
Acts 10:34-35 ESV
So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him".
I invite any Calvinist to reply to explain how this passage can be interpreted compatibly with Calvinism. This UA-cam channel is swimming with Calvinists - if you don't see a reply which explains how it is possibly compatible with Calvinism you can be SURE that no Calvinist has any way to make it compatible. (Please don't reply to say that God is making an offer he knows isn't genuine - God is not a liar. And please don't reply to tell me that the verse means only that those who already know God are acceptable to him - there would be no reason in the context of the passage for this to be the meaning of it).
Pre determinism leads to:
1. A God that decrees everything including evil for His Glory.
2. A God that enables/decrees people to believe in false Gods, not him the one true god.
3. A God that then writes a list of rules he commands must be followed, the first being serve no other gods but him.
This is where pre-determinism leads, this is how Calvinism changes Gods character.
To follow Calvinism you have to believe this version of the Gospel, (which every Calvinist will say is not the Gospel). “Jesus died for your sins, if God regenerates you and enables you to believe, then congratulations your’re saved, and are one of the elect”. That is the Calvinist gospel, and it is not biblical. They will use an excuse and say “we don’t know who the elect are?” But they don’t preach what they believe, Ie because it’s not the gospel.
Calvinism removes our requirement to believe, and regardless of what Calvinists say, it takes the focus off Christs sacrifice alone for Salvation, and puts it on faith in being elect.
Calvinisim is false teaching that should be avoided at all costs, it actually limits Gods power and Sovereignty, it does the complete opposite of what it preaches.
Great another misrepresentation
Amen. All have sin and fall short. All means everyone deserves eternal punishment. People believe God is obligated to save people. No He’s not. Jesus came to save us from what? You get your answer.
Isn’t great though that as 2 Peter 3:9 says He is patient that non shall
Perish but “all” shall come to repentance. Remember “all” goes both ways. We’ve all sinned, but we all have the opportunity to be saved as well.
Sanctification - it’s a change of life --
Let me get this straight. God gives grace to whom he pleases, and he withholds grace from whoever he pleases. Since God knows all his creation eternal destinations, since before he laid the foundation of the earth. Why did he create those who go Hell? Somebody make sense out of that for me please.
As non-Calvinist Apologist Frank Turek points out, Calvinism makes God the author of Evil. If God creates some human beings just to burn in Hell, God must be the author of Evil. The good news (gospel) is that Calvinism is errant exegesis. Soteriology 101 UA-cam channel does a good job explaining this. It’s a shame these highly intelligent, thoughtful, Christ-led people get trapped into a Calvinist mindset when reading Scripture. The God of Scripture is so much more than the Calvinist God. Calvinists forget about the context of Paul’s letters and insert their presuppositions where they don’t belong.
@@Luvurenemy, it's not Calvinism that makes God the author of evil, it is God himself. Who else would it be, Satan? Who created Satan? Who allows Satan to roam to and fro on earth?
Isaiah 45:7: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things."
When will you wake up and figure out that all religion is mythology? The Calvinist have their interpretation of Christian mythology and their version uses the word: Ephesians 1:4-5; Romans 8:29-30; John 6:44, etc.
How do you answer the question - If God knows the eternal destination for ALL his human creation, and he knew this before he laid the foundation of the earth. Why did he create those that are going to hell?
@@reginaldhalstead6186 Hello! Thank you for replying. Dr. Leyton Flowers does a great job de-Calvinizing the 3 passages you listed. I’ve included links below to the specific episodes featuring those passages from Dr. Flowers UA-cam channel, Soteriology 101.
As for Isaiah 45:7 God does bring peace and calamity upon people. He does it for justice, to punish sin, and for reasons that will always be mysterious to human beings. But I do not believe God is the author of Evil. As CS Lewis said, Evil is a parasite on the Good. This Evil feeds upon the Goodness of God.
Mike Winger does an excellent job exegeting Isaiah 45:7. I’ve included a link to his exegesis video below. The exegesis starts at 3:04.
Finally, as I understand it, God’s omniscience is similar to me watching a recording of a football game. I know the outcome but my knowledge doesn’t affect the free will of the players. This is how God can be omniscient yet give human beings a free will choice to believe in the risen Christ.
Thank you again for replying. I hope you find the truth in your search. I humbly submit that God is Good. He loves you more than any human ever could and He wants you in His Kingdom come. Please consider it.
Soteriology 101 “De-Calvnizing” Response episodes to Ephesians, Romans, and John passages.
ua-cam.com/video/1yrlzDfX8AQ/v-deo.htmlsi=J1x3UqTYYTiva5gu
ua-cam.com/video/5aqR23SrHy0/v-deo.htmlsi=gKZCPp5BWqNO3Eul
ua-cam.com/video/gH0hTfxVCuM/v-deo.htmlsi=TXNm252QHm3nHN6v
Mike Winger’s exegesis UA-cam video of Isaiah 45:7.
The exegesis starts at 3:04 in the UA-cam video.
ua-cam.com/users/liveGSToZ_4yh54?si=SKUeAt8zeOTBHqRn
@@reginaldhalstead6186 Hello! Thank you for replying. Dr. Leyton Flowers does a great job de-Calvinizing the 3 passages you listed. He was a Calvinist for over 10 years before realizing his error. He started a UA-cam Channel Soteriology 101 debunking Calvinism and has debated prominent Calvinists. I’ve included links below to the specific episodes featuring those passages from Dr. Flowers UA-cam channel.
As for Isaiah 45:7 God does bring peace and calamity upon people. He does it for justice, to punish sin, and for reasons that will always be mysterious to human beings. But I do not believe God is not the author of Evil. As CS Lewis said, Evil is a parasite on the Good. This Evil feeds upon the Goodness of God.
Mike Winger does an excellent job exegeting Isaiah 45:7. I’ve included a link to his exegesis video below. The exegesis starts at 3:04.
Finally, as I understand it, God’s omniscience is similar to me watching a recording of a football game. I know the outcome but my knowledge doesn’t affect the free will of the players. This is how God can be omniscient yet give human beings a free will choice to believe in the risen Christ.
Thank you again for replying. I hope you find the truth in your search. I humbly submit that God is Good. He loves you more than any human ever could and He wants you in His Kingdom come. Please consider it.
Soteriology 101 “De-Calvnizing” Response episodes to Ephesians, Romans, and John passages.
ua-cam.com/video/1yrlzDfX8AQ/v-deo.htmlsi=J1x3UqTYYTiva5gu
ua-cam.com/video/5aqR23SrHy0/v-deo.htmlsi=gKZCPp5BWqNO3Eul
ua-cam.com/video/gH0hTfxVCuM/v-deo.htmlsi=TXNm252QHm3nHN6v
Mike Winger’s exegesis UA-cam video of Isaiah 45:7.
The exegesis starts at 3:04 in the UA-cam video.
ua-cam.com/users/liveGSToZ_4yh54?si=SKUeAt8zeOTBHqRn
We are predestined to be conformed tonthebimage of God, how?
How is in this: John 6:57
King James Version
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
We conform to Jesus as we live by Him. We love Him and we keep his commandments, His instructions.
When we live by Him we are one with the Father. We in Him and He in us.
And Jesus will raise us up on the last day! This is our eternal security.
The whole “God looks down the annals of time to see who will and won’t believe” is so so silly.
It’s logically ridiculous. You have to kind of separate God from himself to even say that…. How does he not know who will and won’t believe at the point of creation…. Or even before … in the first place??
How can you say there was something at one point or another that God did not know and then proceeded to find out?!
If you say that he had to look to see, aka find out, then you’re saying he somehow is not omniscient, or that he somehow magically separated himself from his omniscience in order to not know so that he could find out…. 😵💫🥴 …. I can’t even with this …
I get how someone can decide not to believe in the Calvinistically-labeled view and still be a Christian, but I think this is an obedience issue.
You’re not obeying by believing the revealed truths, no matter how fully you can wrap your mind around the complexities. Just accept what he says. 😩
inb4: “calvanism heresy”
Apparently you didn't watch the video apparently you don't understand context go back to this time watch it and this time pay attention not what you think they said and don't go by the arguments you want to write down so you can argue later in the comments know that means you think you know it all get rid of your arrogance get rid of your arrogance get saved get born again and this time pay attention to what's being said not what you think is being said
Exactly what pastor Jeff said "" Unsaved dummies like you just happen to hate what Gods truth actually says"" in sound Doctrine
@Nicky-hr1qz I think you may have misunderstood. I got the impression he was saying he was commenting before the other commenters show up to scream about Calvin's being heresy. Basically "I got to post before all the wild unhinged posts start coming in." That's usually what that comment format is referring to.
lol yea my bad bro, i was joking. also how i spelled calvinism, thats how they always do it🤣. it was supposed to be tongue in cheek.
@@wakeinthecity9 The spelling was a nice touch
*Jeff, so how does someone ensure he is in Chris before the foundations of the world??? Your understanding of the Bible is upside down*
Just read about the evangelical idea of infant baptism. Ya'll can't seem to agree on anything other than your non biblical doctrine of the trinity and your idea of unelected salvation. Every time I read about some debate or controversy over some gospel doctrine ya'll cannot seem to understand and agree on I thank the Lord for the Book of Mormon! Every doctrine that you seem confused about is explained more comprehensively and in greater detail in the Book of Mormon! If you will turn to Mormon chapter 8 (you won't!) the prophet Mormon is explaining to his son Moroni in the following words: Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach-repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children. And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold baptism is into repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins, But little children are alive in Christ. We have living prophets.....you should listen to them!
Calvinism is so bizarre and every time I hear one of the great men who I respect on all other issues except Calvinism I just become more and more baffled at how they don't hear how they sound when talking about Calvinism. For instance when he asked why evangelize trying to paint a picture of Jesus dying on the cross and people not being saved as a "God tried all he could" logic bruh is Jesus on the cross the same as evangelism? the spreading of the message of Jesus on the cross and it's purpose? What is he talking about what is Romans 1:16??? Mean to him? ....I am not ashamed of the Gospel (message) for it is the POWER of God Unto Salvation for everyone who believes.... We evangelize because we are spreading the gospel so that men can hear the message and hope they believe it. Like spreading seed not all will grow like fishing you not gone catch every fish. We evangelize for the whomsoever and yes it could be every 1 we speak to at any given time or none. We just don't blame the none on God they themselves choose to reject the gospel it's on them. That's not thwarting God unless you think we think God accidentally gave man free will we believe God knew he created free will and is not surprised by Man's decision but still gives man a decision to make at the end of it he will still Judge them justly so nobody gets away with anything and so God is not thwarted. We don't struggle with this question the way Calvinism thinks we do. We know why we are evangelizing because how can they believe if they have not yet heard? How can they hear if no one tells them? This just like all their arguments Calvinists answers to Calvinists problems, try to guilt trip people into Calvinism. We don't ask the question why Evangelize just by a clear reading of scripture, we only ask Calvinists who believe in a limited atonement and irresistible grace why do YOU evangelize your system gives literally no answers other than "God uses means" (we know that) and "because we are told to". We know we are told to, we ain't questioning if God told us to nor WHY God told us to, both are clear to us. We are asking YOU guys on the grounds of your system why would evangelism even be a thing. But we know your answer to that too "It's a mystery" Yes it sure is bro. It sure is.
You guys really need to take your calvanist lenses off and just read the text for what it is, no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him, it doesn't say the father picks and chooses who he draws to him, no one can go to a wedding unless they receive an invitation, but if they do receive an invitation that doesn't mean they have to go, the father draws everyone, how do we know that? because the bible states that the Lord doesn't will that anyone should perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
*Jeff, the Holy Spirit is constantly convicting the world of sin righteousness ans judgement, and those who listen to the call of the spirit will be drawn by he Father. You Idea that there are a pre-selected people prior o their birth is flawed*
iv’s that are uncomfortable and take all day are unnatural and should not be done.
This idea of predestinated salvation is surely proof of an apostacy! It makes God look horrible!! Why on earth would a perfect, loving God create most of His children to condemn them to an eternal hell?!! The majority of people who live on this earth will live without a knowledge of Jesus Christ. How could a perfectly just God condemn them for something they had no knowledge of? The answer is that He would not! In the last chapter of Malachi in the Old Testament, the Lord writes about the coming of the prophet Elijah who will come and turn the hearts of the children to their fathers lest He smite the earth with a curse. Have ya'll seen the prophet Elijah?? He came in 1836 to the prophet Joseph Smith and brought back the sealing power of the Priesthood that would bind on earth and heaven families for eternity! And this sealing power lends efficacy and validity to all of the ordinances of salvation, from baptism to the sealing of families in holy temples! Yes baptism is a requirement for salvation! Ya'll believe more in Martin Luther than in the Savior's words: Except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!!
I’ll be replying today for those interested in hearing both sides.
In Acts, we find that God searched the hearts of the Gentiles:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Why did God need to search their hearts if He had already predetermined that they would hear Jesus? Who is the Gospel for?
After all, He knows who will and will not hear and or believe!
It seems to me the truth is that these Gentiles were not already predetermined to hear their calling but it wasn't until they heard the Gospel that they believed.
By the same logic, is God not omniscient because of how his assessment of the tower of Babel is described?
And the LORD *came down to see* the city and the tower, which the children of man had built. And the LORD said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another’s speech.”
- Genesis 11:5-7
Could God not see the tower without first "coming down," or should we be hesitant to let a single anthropomorphic word picture erase the clear attributes that scripture ascribes to him elsewhere?
@@ejdulis Wait, first off if Gid didn't already know they were up to something why God down amd look. Secondly, if He, who is in Heaven, can come into the world from Heaven, how can this be possible without being omnipresent?
Your getting confused by the writing method. What you quoted comes from the ancient Hebrew language, and because of this it was translated by looking through a Latin and Greek lens.
He is everywhere and He does search every heart.
Jeremiah 23:24
“Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.”
Great show, thank you, guys!
The only thing I didn't understand:
How can a fallen man be morally obligated to repent if he doesn't possess that ability?
If anyone can elaborate on this or point me in the right direction, I would really appreciate it.
It is important to be clear about what sense a person lacks an ability. It isn't like they lack the ability to fly as a bird does under their own power. That sort of lack of ability is based on fundamental design decisions God made in creating humans.
But the lack of ability Reformed Christians are speaking of is a lack of ability of the _will_ to want the things of God. In creation, we were made innocent, but in the fall our entire being became oriented away from God and towards sin and rebellion. We lack the ability because we lack the will.
If a parent says they could never hurt their baby, it isn't because they are too weak and their 2 month old would beat them in a fight, it's because they have no will to do harm to their child. So too as sinners, we have no will for doing what is righteous for righteous reasons. We desire our glory over God's glory. We need to be given ears to hear and eyes to see and a new heart to want the things of God for their own sake and not just for whatever might benefit ourselves.
@oracleoftroy Thank you very much for your response. My initial thought is lack of will or lack of ability, inability is inability. I'm not stopping there, though. I need to dig deeper into the distinction you are making. Thank you again!
@@torencalduris3114 Westminster Confession chapter 9 might be a good overview. Section 3 puts it like this (emphasis mine):
Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all *ability of will* to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
The chapter is titled "Of Free Will" which already challenges the common charge that "Calvinists reject free will!"
Yes no one can come to me unless the Father He is drawn. Yes and amen.
But how do you reconcile this verse with Jerusalem Jeruusalem how long i wanted to gather you as a mother hen gathers her chicks but you were not willing.
Now in this verse what this seems is Jesus is talking about the unwillingness of those who were to be His people to come to him almost as if they could will. If they could not come to him why would he weep as though it was their fault why is there. Need to convict of sin if they cnnot be righteous without God.
I know theres much more scriptures. But im going with whats in top of my head in Jesus Name the quest for Wisdom is ongoing never ending as long as done by the Truth(Jesus).
Based on 1:19:45-1:20 the discourse is about a hypothetical conversation where someone points out the calvanist statement that they are unable to repent because they do not have ability to and accuse the calvanist of being false yet when the calvanist asks the person if he wants repent he says he doesn't. So what I understand that He is unable to repent but He can desire that repentance that reconciliation with God. And as the Word says ""He will grant you the desired of your heart"
You are mis-quoting that verse. "How often would I have gathered YOUR CHILDREN... but you were not willing...your house is left to you desolate.
He is speaking to the scribes and pharisees and talking about the judgment to come on them ( in 70 AD)
@deewken yea well, it's not really the matter of who he is talking to, if he is talking to the scribes and Pharisees that indicates that the Pharisees could Will to be gathered, they could have been willing but they were not willing.
I'm not saying this as a unbeliever but genuinely seeking. Salvation is through Christ alone!
Matt 27:25
The verse Matthew 27:25
SATAN IS TEARING THIS WORLD APART:
Many people hold tight to their sins in hopes of becoming saved later. Some people love Satan and he repays them with death; death of happiness, love, peace, kindness, relationships, and so forth. They love Satan but he hates their guts and will chew them up and spit them out. God's word warns us of satan’s deeds, saying “Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time” (Revelation 12:12).
Satan is already defeated and he knows it; he can never enter the gates of heaven ever again. And if it were up to him, no one else would either. Repent, and God will forgive.
This is too funny. At about 38:00 Jeff talks about people, taking verses out of context, and then proceeds to take verses and cherry pick out of context just like Mormons do, and Jehovah witness. This is the worst way to defend a position simply by rambling off verses without looking at the context or the historical background of those verses. It seems like Jeff is projecting exactly what he is doing himself. This is hilarious.