@@icetea5807 Jon got in good with the FreeFolk and won some allies. Through Jon they were able to unite and defeat the White Walkers. His sacrifices were not in vain.
@@Voidwurm1701 The only people who would have been able to fight the dead are those with Valyrian Steel would really be able to fight. Without Jon they wouldn't even know the White Walkers weaknesses. They wouldn't have enough Dragonglass weapons. It would be the Arya with her Valyrian dagger against Hundreds of Thousands of dead people and we saw what would happen if Arya tried to go it alone. She is a dangerous fighter but she wouldn't win by herself against the Army of Whites.
@@junesilvermanb2979 you do know that most of us do know how to use the internet, and look up words. Or even grab the 3in thick book that has all the words in it.
Because they actually had a vision for them at the start when they went off of GRRM's descriptions. They wanted an unstoppable, scary, lifeless force. That is until they made the white walkers into generic villains.
@@skylertremblay3395 I can hear their conversation: "my ear came off yesterday!" Second walker: "lucky you, both my arms fell off a week ago! Now my wife calls me slow hand!" Both walkers laugh while the first walker brings a cup of ale to the second walker to his mouth to drink!
@@smellypatel5272 they didn't just "make them" into generic villains. Along with much else, they are an absolute red herring. Like Rhaegar and his prophecies, they're meant to draw the eye and distract from the facts on the ground. While the swapping hands with the dagger was an underwhelming end to a world ending threat, this is thematically suited to the message and themes of ASOIAF. You're supposed to be focused on things like the Prince that was Promised, Azor Ahai, The Last Hero or the Sword of the Morning, you're supposed to be distracted by these myths. But in the end, it's just a girl with a dagger in the right place. George has gone on record many times that the story isn't supposed to be about divine interventions or prophecies. There's no deus ex machina coming to save the world. Which makes the fact that many people invest so much in the validity of prophecies tragic.
@@TheSamuraijim87 That's the stupidest thing i read about the White Walkers. What George actually said about prophecies "Prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams... Prophecy will bite your prick off everytime,”. Profecies are supposed to be a double edged sword in this world, something thay will give you the right answer but will get misinterpreted. They're not just red herrings, they're foreshadowing with a bit of a twist, Dumb and Dumber just wanted to ger rid off all the magic and prophecies so the show appeals more to "Urban moms and basketball players". Like hell we have plenty of prophecies that actually came true in the books and plenty of others that became true with a twist: “Do not despair Lord Snow […] Your sister is not lost to you.” “I have no sister.” The words were knives. What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister? Melisandre seemed amused. “What is her name, this little sister that you do not have?” “Arya.” His voice was hoarse. “My half-sister, truly…” “… for you are bastard born. I had not forgotten. I have seen your sister in my fires, fleeing from this marriage they have made for her. Coming here, to you. A girl in grey on a dying horse, I have seen it plain as day. It has not happened yet, but it will.” -Jon, A Dance with Dragons You want to know something that George actually did say about how to write a story? "you screw up the whole book because you get these foreshadowing early on and these little clues you've planted and now theyre dead ends, and your retconning, it's a mess..." The best part is that D&D actually admitted that they decided Arya was going to kill the Night King around season 5 or 6 when the piece of foreshadowing they used as an excuse was a Melisandre prophecy in season2 that they didn't even got right (she was suppose to close blue eyes and green eyes but she never closed green eyes) The lazy pieces of shit used a misinterpreted prophecy for their shitty retcon and you still justify it by saying prophecies are a red herring. You can't have it both way either they're hacks that just bullshited Arya into killing the main villain without any sense or foreshadowing because prophecies are red herrings and don't count or prophecies do count and they used a retconed misinterpreted prophecy as foreshadowing ignoring almost every other important prophecy on the show Also let's not talk about how White Walkers are an actual metaphor for Climate change and they're supposed to be a powerful force of nature that can only be stopped by stopping the "game of thrones" so everyone can join together and focus on the real threat to the world. They just wasted it by giving it a leader proxy hive mind that can be killed by just one person and thus bring and end to this disastrous force of nature
in the books Mance knows Jon by sight. Surprised, Jon asks how that was possible and turns out Mance WAS in the feast Ned threw when Robert visited Winterfell, passing himself as a singer. He saw how they seated all the trueborn in places of honor, while jon was on some table hidden away. The answer to Mance's question was "you saw where they seated me. You saw where they seated the bastard"
That bit was so cool. And like a lot of the books, it's open to a bit of interpretation, Mance could be lying about the whole story, the knowledge Mance has wouldn't exactly require him to be there, he could easily just guess they'd seat a bastard on a rubbish table, and he might have known through traders or spies that Benjen Stark was headed to Winterfell.
That is actually my favourite chapter in the book. How Mance was singing the Dormishman's Wife behind the whole time and suddenly called out Jon by his name. It was great. Jon recalling seeing Mance when Mance was still a ranger. It's really good. I read the books after watching the show. But I couldn't help but say that Jon could've answered with both the book part and show part. Both are really good points he made.
I've been reading the books, almost finished with book 5. I loved this part in the book for so many reasons. I haven't watched the show and just been seeing clips of it. So far I've almost entirely preferred the book interpretations of specific scenes, and while I still prefer how the book handles this bit, I think in the show Jon is being more honest with Mance, which is an interesting take. But in book 1 Tyrion told Jon to own his bastard heritage, to use it as armor or w/e, and in the books he does, often. It seems like the shows don't really stress that much
Even in the first seasons, every change they made from the books to the show’s script made it a little bit weaker. We should have seen the last 2 seasons coming
Both and. He would have gotten along great with Robert... and two weeks later, he'd have started a war by insulting every noble house in the seven kingdoms.
@@YourXavier I mean, he couldn't get the Tyrells, bc Nana T would read him for absolute filth. Everyone else I just assume Bob would tell them to get over themselves
I love Mance's facial expressions when Jon was talking about seeing the White Walkers. "I saw Crastus take his own baby boy and leave it in the woods. I saw what took it." There's some panic, but it's quickly replaced by skepticism. "When I told the Lord Commander, he already knew." There. That sheer terror on Mance's face as he realized just how bad the situation at the wall was.
its all that john needed to say to get mance to completely like him. Because mance feels the exact same way, and he knows about the white walkers and their danger. To hear it come from someone else, a crow, makes his eyes blast open.
Mance was filled with disgust when he heard that Jeor Mormont knew but never protested...that filled Mance's head with disgust, knowing how far the great Night's Watch has fallen...
@@nigga.amigo_The Night’s Watch is basically in shambles and useless. The main reason Mance wants to take over the wall is to man it against the white walkers. When Jon tells him this he’s shocked and likely thinking “Jesus, it’s even worse than I thought”
Fast forward a few years: Jon does kill Mance and earns Tormunds respect. In turn, Tormund kills the Lord of Bones bc him and Jon are "allies". Funny how things can get sideways over time.
"You're telling me you saw...one of them?" I love the music that plays with the few nameless mentions of the White Walkers we get in the early seasons. It's different from everything else. The music gives a different feeling from Ned Stark's honour. From Cersei and Jamie's evil. Even from the magic of Danny's Dragons. Of something old. Mysterious. And terrifying.
@@josephmort4039 Most fiction does the undead thing terribly. GoT's undead are just like warcraft's (wow included) undead. They are all hype, some interesting lore but mostly dumb, not really threatening monsters. Walking dead is also a bunch of bullshit, humans in there are the real threat. Warhammer's undead, necrons are pretty badass. There is also a lesser known fantasy fiction series called Death Gate Saga and they touch undeath a little there too and it's also quite threatening. There are some good examples and a lot of bad ones. GoT is on the bad side definitely.
Honestly I want to see a spinoff about how Mance united all of the wildlings. Because he must have done some crazy shit to win all of their respect despite being a former crow.
Check out a fanfic called Life and Honor, it's an alternate timeline where Jaime takes the black after he kills Aerys and ends up partnering with Mance while they try to build towards peace between the Wildlings and the Watch. It's pretty divergent from canon, but it does a great job of showing how Mance would have built his name by earning trust, settling disputes, and winning brushfire wars to unite the clans.
Especially when it comes to the thenns. Like, mance, wtf did you do to gain the respect of the magnar of the thenns?!?! Theyre not the animalistic cannibals they portray them in the show. They are the closest thing to a united force under a single ruler, with their own version of lords under them and the ones who have the closest things to actual armor beyond the wall. They are incredibly formidable and ruthless. Thenns have a facinating culture and history but they also crazy as fuck.
@@Cissablack708he fought three duels against Styr, Magnar of the Thenns and bested him all three times, that’s why the Thenns joined him. Tormund, Styr and Mance were all trying to unite the Freefolk and I don’t think it’s ever revealed how he got Tormund to side with him. Maybe Tormund just realized Mance was better to lead them since he already got the Thenns on his side.
Love this scene, so much subtext. Mance was visible upset to hear about the baby and the Lord Commander being aware. To be fair to Lord Moremont it wasn't that he didn't care. He was just trying to protect his men in a bad situation. Jon didn't blatantly lie he just lied by omission. But even though Mance appreciated Jon's story and let him stay he didn't believe Jon's motives. "you're ned stark's bastard" was the first tell. Of all the northern houses who support the nights watch none did as much as the starks. "You want to be a hero" was the other tell that Mance knew Jon better than Jon did. Mance wanted to get thru the gates and realized Jon might be the key (and he was) but I don't think Mance believed Jon's story.
No he did not believe Jon's story but probably realized the same thing he taught Jon. They are not enemies and the real enemy was the Others. (Which, like Winter, was quickly defeated in the final underwhelming season)
I think you could also take it as he did believe him in the end because he believes Jon wants to fight against the white walkers and defeat them to become a hero to mankind which is basically what Jon ends up doing
Yes i was thinking about this for a while, right here he knew that whatever happened..that if Jon either kills him or betrays “the cause” he knew that there’d be atleast some sort of passing of the torch to Jon and he would end up doing the right thing
4:27 that reaction from Mance is so important. He had no idea the nights watch was quasi-allied with the white walkers, he had no idea that even the lord commander knew what was coming for them.
You guys didn’t get the ending YOU wanted. You should have wrote it, then. Did you really think after all you saw the whole show and through the books that everything would be perfect at the end? All you’re doing is jumping on a bandwagon of hate and pretending that the show isn’t a masterpiece. It’s been years now and you and other people are still fishing for likes and attention saying the same thing over and over about the ending. Let it go. If you want a real explanation on why the dialogue and the show wasn’t as polished at the end as it was majority of the show, take it up with GRRM. He stopped writing the final books as soon as the money from HBO hit his bank account. Hard to keep up the same quality when some of the best books ever written don’t have an ending and never will.
@asonofclay. 1ofmany it’ll change, these people are sheep. Remember the Star Wars Prequels a few years ago? People couldn’t stop making fun of them and talking about how bad they were and that it was a horrible thing for “the real Star Wars in my day.” Now they’re cinematic masterpieces and better than the original trilogy. All it takes is a group of people to give a narrative and these people just repeat it over and over to be like everyone else. The ending of Sopranos had people so pissed and it was crucified and now it’s the GOAT the last few years. Ridiculous.
@@thebadaids This. Too many entitled babies who completely dismiss the entire journey to get to the end. The show was amazing, sorry it didn't fit your perfect narrative but at the end of the day we got a lot to be thankful for.
@@papaya32 This. Both of you are complete morons. Ending was shit, regardless of personal preferences. Very hard to understand because, I repeat, bot of u are morons.
This is one of Kit's best moments. At first Jon's body language betrays his uncertainty and he can't hold Mance's eye. He's Ned Stark's boy, he couldn't lie his way out of anything. He's terrible. So then he tells Mance the truth of the thing he saw, of the thing that genuinely _did_ cause him to doubt if he was fighting for the right side, and he just stares Mance down without hesitation. And Mance stares back and goes "Yep. You've seen The Thing. That's the look you get when you actually have."
"why do you want to join us lord snow?" "i WuNt Te Be FrEeEe" LMAO the way he said that sounded like an obvious lie, that's great acting to be honest. people say he's a bad actor but he's really good, in some scenes he really kills it, specially the well written scenes.
In the books his reason for joining is more convincing. Mance was at that feast in winterFell before Jon went to the wall. Jon argued that his basted status is why he wanted to “turncoat” and join a free society like the free folk
This scene is so chilling, as is all the scenes that relate to the White Walkers. They're such a mysterious and ominous enemy, as well as dangerous, that any mention of them immediately makes you hair stand. It's almost like they don't even exist, phasing in and out like ghosts in the snow, like a force of nature. And the characters recognize it. Just by the way they talk about them you can tell how frightening they are. You don't really know anything about them, just that they have some kind of prerogative and intent in what they do. It's disturbing. It's a real crime how awfully they were treated in the final season. Such disrespect and incompetence to make this unique threat in fiction meet such a dismal end.
The fact that we - and the characters - know nothing about them is part of why they're so scary early on. The mystery of not knowing is a key part of horror. What's the scariest part of a horror film? It's the bit when the monster is lurking in the shadows, when it sees the characters but they don't see it. What's the least scary part of a horror movie? The monster money shot. The part at the end when we see the monster fully, right before it dies. That's The Silence and The Weeping Angels got less scary in every episode of Doctor Who they were in. And it's part of why The Others (which is a name which already hints at something alien and unknowable) were so scary in the early seasons. Of course, they were also reduced significantly by the way they were portrayed in the later seasons - none of them except The Night King ever did anything except stand there, with the sole exception of the two that Jon killed. Their motivations changed from mysterious to "just wanna kill everyone cuz we're evil". The Night King was stupid. They never achieved anything notable, never killed anyone we care about. "What about Theon?" I hear you ask. No-one we _care_ about.
The idea of the dead coming back for us is such a terrifying idea if done right. Most books, movies, and tv shows get it wrong with them just being a joke. Early GoT and the Song of Ice and Fire books get it right. The early seasons of GoT could’ve been a drama and turned into a straight horror with the dead crossing over the wall.
@@thedjsubii Ciaran Hinds(Mance Rayder) portrayed Julius Caesar in HBO ROME. The guy sitting behind him surprisingly just happened to looked abit like Kevin Mckidd who also in HBO ROME as a Centurion/Gang leader for Caesars campaign both politically and military warfare. Surprisingly another actor Tobias Menzies(Edmure Tully) also from HBO ROME portrayed Brutus. You should watch the series it has the same caliber as the first two seasons of Game of Thrones. Hope this helps ya👍
Jon won mance's trust by telling him why he truly doubted his lord commander. "There's no better way to overpower a trickle of doubt than with a flood of naked truth" : house of cards
i feel like they should stayed true to the books here if i recall Jon does indeed say at first he 'wants to be free' and Mance doesn't believe him then Jon says something like "You told me before, that you sneaked south of the wall and attended a wedding at Winterfell, and i bet you saw my father, and my mother, and all my brothers and sisters sitting at the head table... and did you see where i was sitting? Did you see where they sat the bastard..."
This version is better than the book, wildlings have been through way worse shit then being stuck at the baby table in a warm castle. Fighting the white walkers is something they relate to and sympathize with making easier for Jon to convince them.
@@buddyfats4768 I think both scenes work for their mediums. When you're watching the show and seeing their facial expressions, then yea, saying anything less than what he did seems trite. But in the book, because the writing is good and the scene is in your head, you're just more hit with how clever the words are than if you were literally watching Jon Snow complain about sitting at the kid's table.
Mance's actor is amazing, such that I keep coming back to the scene for his various facial inflections. Also good acting by Kit Harrington, his second (and crucial) answer to Mance draws upon the fact that he did indeed feel confcliting emotions upon learning that the Lord Commander knew what Craster was doing.
"I saw crastor take his newborn baby boy into the woods at night. and i saw what took him. I want to be the one who fights for the living. " This is all john needed to say to make mance rayder take a complete shine to him. And make him part of the clan. Because thats exactly how mance rayder thinks. Lets not forget he knows the "southern" folk ( northern), and he respects them and their honor.
All this just for that. They butchered his arc. I would have been happier even if his arc of being " the real king of seven kingdoms, or being a Targaryen." would not have played out But he needed to complete his arc as a protagonist against the night king, his whole story was setup in that direction from season one. He should have fought the night king, even get killed in the process..no problem But he just fucking yelled at a dragon
You know, this is actually one case where I do think I prefer the way the dialogue in the show was handled better! I really liked this chapter on the whole, but I think Jon's response in the show is a great example of him using his honesty in a way that *was* very smart. He won Mance over because what he was saying, he absolutely meant, even if the Free Folk all kind of still knew that he wasn't truly going to go against the Night's Watch. If I'm remembering correctly, I don't think the incident with the baby and Craster even happened in the book, so obviously that same reason wouldn't really be viable to book Jon, but still, it just makes a lot more sense to me than his bastard status being the reason for his deserting, given then... why would that be a reason for him to leave the Night's Watch? It was the reason he left Winterfell and *joined* the Watch, for sure, but it wouldn't be a logical reason why he would then leave the Watch.
This might be the only part of the show that improved from the books. Jon’s reason is much more convincing here than whining about how he was seated at a shitty table.
The great thing about this scene is it reinforces the Stark position of dealing in the truth (ironic, considering it's Jon Snow). He didn't have a chance with Mance until he told the truth, which was risky in its unbelievability.
This scene is amazing even if Manse didn’t fully believe his story. But he was definitely terrified when he told him about the white walkers. Those last few lines from John were freaking powerful.
Tormund recognizes here that there's no way Jon killed Half-Hand, he's smart in his own way but they made him in to this dumb uncivilized goofy wild-ling at the end of the show because they were incompetent
the White Walker theme suddenly playing in the middle of dialogue as soon as they mention them is amazing music timing and the music itself is just perfect, menacing, cold and there's something terrifying about it. the music in this show was always perfect, all the different themes for different houses and different groups, it perfectly suited them, I always thought the Musician/Composer for this show understood the writing and the story better than the actual writers of the show.
There's a few examples of this. GRRM said a few times there is things he wish he did slightly differently so I believe small improvements like this is what he meant
The best lies have an element of truth, the lord commander was keeping secrets and he did believe the fight against the dead mattered more than anything.
It really isn't a good reason at all, and it isn't believable. He didn't offer any explanation whatsoever as to why he thinks the night's watch isn't "fighting for the living" and the wildlings are, they're all going to be fighting for the living since they are living.
@@jebediah4780 he was implying the majority of the night’s watch cares more about killing wildlings than worrying about bigger problems, which was true for a big chunk of it.
Mance was a great character. I know this show is supposed to be brutal reality themed and shows that heroics don’t always win, and I respected that, but I really wish they had kept some of the better characters. Like Mance. Who’s still alive in the books.
I used to be a regular watcher of GOT clips on UA-cam. This show managed to capture the imagination and fantasy that really helps us elevate, even if briefly. Then season 8 happened and more the finale. I now seldom revisit GOT content and when I do, I feel disappointed.
Talking Thrones…great UA-cam channel. He did a 2-hour do-over of how season 8 should’ve gone. I loved it. Listened to it a few times since it was released. Now when I think of the end of the show, I don’t think of HBO’s version, I think of the awesome Talking Thrones version
Preferred his story in the book more. As they were talking, Mance told Jon that he was at Winterfell when the king came to name Eddard hand of the King. He infiltrated as a bard and had a good look at the Starks. Hearing this Jon finally knows how to play Mance. He asks Mance about the party and then eventually where Jon was. As a bastard Jon was not allowed to be with the rest. Jon knew it was due to Catelyn but Mance did not, so when Jon pointed out that he was always an outcast, Mance believed him. The fact that Jon being a bastard ended up saving his life, and that of the Nightswatch.
If you really think about it, mance was likely lying to jon about being there as it’s hella far fetched that mance would travel to winterfell for months leaving behind the wildlings just to get a good look of Robert Baratheon, shows his manipulation skills to get jon to support him if he plays the part he was secretly at winterfell, only thought about this on a re read so I could be wrong
@@CodexQuinn Ive read the books but u do realise how crazy it sounds that he went there, wouldve have taken months and months and is a huge risk, i personally mance is lying but thats just what i think
@@CodexQuinn In the books you only have Mance's word that he made the trip, nothing he knows about the King's feast at Winterfell would actually require him to be there. Like sitting a bastard at a crap table at a king's feast would be pretty common, and he could already know through spies or traders that Benjen Stark was headed to Winterfell, the same way he knew about the King coming north. Jon introduces himself first, if Mance said "Hello Jon Snow, Ned Stark's bastard" then it'd make the story more credible. Mance is a bard, a spinner of stories and songs, it's likely he was trying to impress Jon. It's not totally an unbelievable story, it's canonically possible to make such a journey and join a large group of travellers. What makes it less believable is Mance leaving his wife behind , although Mance is more reckless in the books.
Ciaran Hinds was amazing in this show. Mance was a great leader, similar to Jon in the later seasons. A good man who didn't want to fight but new he had to
Something about this scene that always bothered me: 2:23 Mance calls Tormund "chicken-eater". Where the hell did Tormund find a chicken up in the frozen wastes?
I've kept chickens for real, as long as they have a coop to go into then they are fine, BTW this was in -20c / -4f so yeah totally plausible :) and before any calls bullshit I'll take you to where I'm from, bet the fucking chickens survive longer than you :)
Honestly liked how they did this scene in the show better than the books. Always felt strange for Jon to go with the crybaby "no one likes me because I'm a bastard" justification rather than telling Mance what he just experienced at Craster's. Although its been awhile since I've read ACOK so maybe he didn't actually see a white walker take Craster's baby in the book. Either way, Kit Harrington and Ciran Hinds crushed this scene.
I may be wrong, but I can't really ever remember somebody who was a king or lord or any other in this show ever shaking somebody's hand, who would be considered below them in terms of the hierarchy of that world. Mance was cool
In the books, the tent is warm, brightly lit, good food, has music playing., and the most beautiful woman in A Song of Ice and Fire, Val the Wildling Princess, is there.
The scene was well done but Jon should have said he wanted to be free of being a bastard like in the books. It was a better motivation because it was true to what Jon wanted and connects with his actual positive feelings towards being a Wildling.
Since the conversation turned differently, he had to take another tack with Mance dismissing "I want to be free" out of hand. Wanting to fight for the living is true, and not incompatible with wanting to be a hero.
How can you possibly prefer the books reason? He sounds like a spoiled brat in the books, saying he wants to join them because of how he was treated at the feast for Robert. Here, he has a far better and more mature reason, one that most wouldn't fault him for.
Howlin MadMurphy Why is it lame? He felt betrayed by Mormont because Mormont defended Craster's actions. Snow wanted to fight to defend the Realm, that's why he took the Black. That faith in the Watch was shaken when he discovered that Mormont turned a blind eye to Craster paying off the Walkers with innocent children as sacrifices. Lame is the last word I'd use for this scene.
Season 4 is when GoT started going downhill in terms of mythology. The writing was absolutely stellar in that season, but introducing the Night King simplified the white walkers from this unfathomable, brutal force of nature into a generic fantasy villain.
The most beautiful thing about this scene is that Jon clearly stated to Daenarys why he would not bend. Mance did the same and now we get why he refused to kneel as Jon did. He would not give his people to stannis just to kneel to another king.
Im still pissed off at how the Wildlings (once a massive force to rightfully be feared) was so simply desintegrated by the Golden Company, and that in the end only a sorry handfull remain after the Battle of the Bastards. Worse still, I would have wanted Giants and Mammoths to be integrated in the army of the North, but Ramsay the literal Bastard had to go and kill the last one. As for Mance Rayder, he is one who should be feared by all when you consider that he managed to unite them all despite the rivalrous dissent between all these clans.
Really miss this grounded historical fiction production of the earlier seasons that complimented the story by giving it’s world building a mysterious; eerie feel to it. It’s absolutely criminal that D&D turned the show into an empty generic blockbuster fantasy with inconsequential fighting scenes replacing everything that made the show truly something.
I guess Mence, as was mentioned, didn't believe John in neither of the stories. But he made him tell a better one so that other wildlings believe him, thus making him legitimised in theirs and John's own eyes
Man... I miss this show. Even with the last couple seasons including light speed dragon flight and a "we're winging it" type feel...still miss all the anticipation, new episodes...what a time.
I’m not gonna sit here and dog pile on D&D, it’s beyond played out, however I just like to imagine a world with a Game Of Thrones with 100 episodes; 10 Seasons with 10 Episodes each. That’s the real high fantasy. One can only dream. They were right on track for a while there too, the first 6 seasons each had 10 episodes but alas we had to deal with thinned our final 2 seasons. Such a shame.
God damn talk of the white walkers makes me so sad. I don't know how I expected it to end, but I did expect that the north would retreat further and further south. Until they found themselves half pounding at the gates of King Landing, and half running further south and deserting. I've been enjoying rewatching the old highlights of the show. Mainly because I couldn't imagine watching a single full episode, let alone the whole show. Fuck the directors. This will go down as one of the greatest show being brought down to one of the worst.
Exactly. The White Walkers should have pushed Westeros right to the edge of desperation to test everyone's priorities. Then, imo when Cersei chooses wrong Jaime should have been there to put a sword in her back and save the kingdom again. There's very little payoff for any character arc in the show.
Man S3 was still pretty good, but you can see they already started to deviate unnecesarily from the source material. This scene was much more interesting and complex in the books.
During the show's running, I supported 100% Mance and his people. The "savages" were the only legitimate rulers of Westeros. They lived in the north way before the wall was made. And what's more, they were free people. They chose their leaders, unlike Westeros people who had to live under the rule of vicious and power hungry kings.
![Best Of Ygritte || Ygritte Being Iconic For 9 Minutes And 57 Seconds [Game Of Thrones]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CLHvLI-AXaI/mqdefault.jpg)
Halfhand would be proud knowing how far his sacrifice went instead of for nothing
That is why he did it, plus he was obviously tired of fighting and ready to embrace the long silence.
his sacrifice was in vain cuz of what we got in season 8. hint: mah queen
@@icetea5807 Jon got in good with the FreeFolk and won some allies. Through Jon they were able to unite and defeat the White Walkers. His sacrifices were not in vain.
@@combatsportlover6919 Nah. All they needed was Arya the whole time.
@@Voidwurm1701 The only people who would have been able to fight the dead are those with Valyrian Steel would really be able to fight. Without Jon they wouldn't even know the White Walkers weaknesses. They wouldn't have enough Dragonglass weapons. It would be the Arya with her Valyrian dagger against Hundreds of Thousands of dead people and we saw what would happen if Arya tried to go it alone. She is a dangerous fighter but she wouldn't win by herself against the Army of Whites.
"I think you just want to be a hero."
I love that Mance knew the Starks had too much honor to abandoned any vows they took.
Honor
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor
@@junesilvermanb2979 you do know that most of us do know how to use the internet, and look up words. Or even grab the 3in thick book that has all the words in it.
@@junesilvermanb2979 ahahah that is a nice comment
Fighting for the living and the party "guarding the realm of men" are close enough to not break the oath.
The name mance rayder is so bad ass
Mance had a natural fatherly look. Liked that character a lot
Killed by a demon polar bear. And stabbed by Consoles.
He almost looked like Jons father
The Romans thought so too
@@frodobaggins6684 HE WAS A CONSUL OF ROME
He’s also Dumbledore’s brother in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows part 1 and 2.
Its almost comedic to see how dark and scary they always used to represent the white walkers when you know how stupid they became in the last season
Because they actually had a vision for them at the start when they went off of GRRM's descriptions. They wanted an unstoppable, scary, lifeless force. That is until they made the white walkers into generic villains.
@@smellypatel5272 the white walkers in the books arent actually lifeless beings. they have their own language and have a range of emotions.
@@skylertremblay3395 I can hear their conversation: "my ear came off yesterday!" Second walker: "lucky you, both my arms fell off a week ago! Now my wife calls me slow hand!" Both walkers laugh while the first walker brings a cup of ale to the second walker to his mouth to drink!
@@smellypatel5272 they didn't just "make them" into generic villains. Along with much else, they are an absolute red herring. Like Rhaegar and his prophecies, they're meant to draw the eye and distract from the facts on the ground.
While the swapping hands with the dagger was an underwhelming end to a world ending threat, this is thematically suited to the message and themes of ASOIAF. You're supposed to be focused on things like the Prince that was Promised, Azor Ahai, The Last Hero or the Sword of the Morning, you're supposed to be distracted by these myths. But in the end, it's just a girl with a dagger in the right place. George has gone on record many times that the story isn't supposed to be about divine interventions or prophecies. There's no deus ex machina coming to save the world. Which makes the fact that many people invest so much in the validity of prophecies tragic.
@@TheSamuraijim87 That's the stupidest thing i read about the White Walkers.
What George actually said about prophecies "Prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams... Prophecy will bite your prick off everytime,”. Profecies are supposed to be a double edged sword in this world, something thay will give you the right answer but will get misinterpreted. They're not just red herrings, they're foreshadowing with a bit of a twist, Dumb and Dumber just wanted to ger rid off all the magic and prophecies so the show appeals more to "Urban moms and basketball players".
Like hell we have plenty of prophecies that actually came true in the books and plenty of others that became true with a twist: “Do not despair Lord Snow […] Your sister is not lost to you.”
“I have no sister.” The words were knives. What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister?
Melisandre seemed amused. “What is her name, this little sister that you do not have?”
“Arya.” His voice was hoarse. “My half-sister, truly…”
“… for you are bastard born. I had not forgotten. I have seen your sister in my fires, fleeing from this marriage they have made for her. Coming here, to you. A girl in grey on a dying horse, I have seen it plain as day. It has not happened yet, but it will.” -Jon, A Dance with Dragons
You want to know something that George actually did say about how to write a story? "you screw up the whole book because you get these foreshadowing early on and these little clues you've planted and now theyre dead ends, and your retconning, it's a mess..."
The best part is that D&D actually admitted that they decided Arya was going to kill the Night King around season 5 or 6 when the piece of foreshadowing they used as an excuse was a Melisandre prophecy in season2 that they didn't even got right (she was suppose to close blue eyes and green eyes but she never closed green eyes) The lazy pieces of shit used a misinterpreted prophecy for their shitty retcon and you still justify it by saying prophecies are a red herring. You can't have it both way either they're hacks that just bullshited Arya into killing the main villain without any sense or foreshadowing because prophecies are red herrings and don't count or prophecies do count and they used a retconed misinterpreted prophecy as foreshadowing ignoring almost every other important prophecy on the show
Also let's not talk about how White Walkers are an actual metaphor for Climate change and they're supposed to be a powerful force of nature that can only be stopped by stopping the "game of thrones" so everyone can join together and focus on the real threat to the world. They just wasted it by giving it a leader proxy hive mind that can be killed by just one person and thus bring and end to this disastrous force of nature
in the books Mance knows Jon by sight. Surprised, Jon asks how that was possible and turns out Mance WAS in the feast Ned threw when Robert visited Winterfell, passing himself as a singer. He saw how they seated all the trueborn in places of honor, while jon was on some table hidden away. The answer to Mance's question was "you saw where they seated me. You saw where they seated the bastard"
That bit was so cool. And like a lot of the books, it's open to a bit of interpretation, Mance could be lying about the whole story, the knowledge Mance has wouldn't exactly require him to be there, he could easily just guess they'd seat a bastard on a rubbish table, and he might have known through traders or spies that Benjen Stark was headed to Winterfell.
That is actually my favourite chapter in the book.
How Mance was singing the Dormishman's Wife behind the whole time and suddenly called out Jon by his name.
It was great.
Jon recalling seeing Mance when Mance was still a ranger.
It's really good.
I read the books after watching the show.
But I couldn't help but say that Jon could've answered with both the book part and show part. Both are really good points he made.
I've been reading the books, almost finished with book 5. I loved this part in the book for so many reasons. I haven't watched the show and just been seeing clips of it. So far I've almost entirely preferred the book interpretations of specific scenes, and while I still prefer how the book handles this bit, I think in the show Jon is being more honest with Mance, which is an interesting take.
But in book 1 Tyrion told Jon to own his bastard heritage, to use it as armor or w/e, and in the books he does, often. It seems like the shows don't really stress that much
@Dexter'sstepsister me too
Even in the first seasons, every change they made from the books to the show’s script made it a little bit weaker. We should have seen the last 2 seasons coming
"now you have to kneel every time I fart"
Tormund would have been a good ambassador in Robert's court
Both and. He would have gotten along great with Robert... and two weeks later, he'd have started a war by insulting every noble house in the seven kingdoms.
@@YourXavier I mean, he couldn't get the Tyrells, bc Nana T would read him for absolute filth. Everyone else I just assume Bob would tell them to get over themselves
I love Mance's facial expressions when Jon was talking about seeing the White Walkers.
"I saw Crastus take his own baby boy and leave it in the woods. I saw what took it." There's some panic, but it's quickly replaced by skepticism.
"When I told the Lord Commander, he already knew." There. That sheer terror on Mance's face as he realized just how bad the situation at the wall was.
its all that john needed to say to get mance to completely like him. Because mance feels the exact same way, and he knows about the white walkers and their danger. To hear it come from someone else, a crow, makes his eyes blast open.
what was the situation at the wall. i watched it long ago so i forgot
Mance was filled with disgust when he heard that Jeor Mormont knew but never protested...that filled Mance's head with disgust, knowing how far the great Night's Watch has fallen...
@@nigga.amigo_The Night’s Watch is basically in shambles and useless. The main reason Mance wants to take over the wall is to man it against the white walkers. When Jon tells him this he’s shocked and likely thinking “Jesus, it’s even worse than I thought”
Fast forward a few years: Jon does kill Mance and earns Tormunds respect. In turn, Tormund kills the Lord of Bones bc him and Jon are "allies". Funny how things can get sideways over time.
Notice how Jon put some truth in his lie to make it easier for him to lie
G
Also like how the targaryens and starks were mortal enemies at a small point but at the end were probably the Targaryen's (Dany) largest allies.
Jon Snow was always a wildling at heart. That is why I actually liked the ending.
Fast forward a few years: "Shes mah queen. Ah don wont it" 😭
So nice to see Julius Caesar is alive and well
HE WAS A CONSUL OF ROME
Shame on the house of Westman for such barbarity..
Alive, not for long!!
Would have never expected Caesar to betray Rome and side with the barbarian Picts
crazy bc Jon snows death was inspired by Julius caesars death
Jon passed that Speech check like an absolute boss
Why u say that
"You're telling me you saw...one of them?"
I love the music that plays with the few nameless mentions of the White Walkers we get in the early seasons. It's different from everything else. The music gives a different feeling from Ned Stark's honour. From Cersei and Jamie's evil. Even from the magic of Danny's Dragons. Of something old. Mysterious. And terrifying.
Back when the walkers were still terrifying and not marvel villains
Mike I swear this dumb fucking smirk the night king did in the last season made me want to hit my screen with a fuckin sledgehamer.
@@mikeg2491 Too bad they amounted to a bucket of warm spit and not much else.
@@josephmort4039 Most fiction does the undead thing terribly. GoT's undead are just like warcraft's (wow included) undead. They are all hype, some interesting lore but mostly dumb, not really threatening monsters. Walking dead is also a bunch of bullshit, humans in there are the real threat.
Warhammer's undead, necrons are pretty badass. There is also a lesser known fantasy fiction series called Death Gate Saga and they touch undeath a little there too and it's also quite threatening.
There are some good examples and a lot of bad ones. GoT is on the bad side definitely.
Honestly I want to see a spinoff about how Mance united all of the wildlings. Because he must have done some crazy shit to win all of their respect despite being a former crow.
Check out a fanfic called Life and Honor, it's an alternate timeline where Jaime takes the black after he kills Aerys and ends up partnering with Mance while they try to build towards peace between the Wildlings and the Watch. It's pretty divergent from canon, but it does a great job of showing how Mance would have built his name by earning trust, settling disputes, and winning brushfire wars to unite the clans.
@@dakotaadams189R.R Martin is fuming
Especially when it comes to the thenns. Like, mance, wtf did you do to gain the respect of the magnar of the thenns?!?! Theyre not the animalistic cannibals they portray them in the show. They are the closest thing to a united force under a single ruler, with their own version of lords under them and the ones who have the closest things to actual armor beyond the wall. They are incredibly formidable and ruthless. Thenns have a facinating culture and history but they also crazy as fuck.
@@Cissablack708he fought three duels against Styr, Magnar of the Thenns and bested him all three times, that’s why the Thenns joined him. Tormund, Styr and Mance were all trying to unite the Freefolk and I don’t think it’s ever revealed how he got Tormund to side with him. Maybe Tormund just realized Mance was better to lead them since he already got the Thenns on his side.
Love this scene, so much subtext. Mance was visible upset to hear about the baby and the Lord Commander being aware. To be fair to Lord Moremont it wasn't that he didn't care. He was just trying to protect his men in a bad situation. Jon didn't blatantly lie he just lied by omission.
But even though Mance appreciated Jon's story and let him stay he didn't believe Jon's motives. "you're ned stark's bastard" was the first tell. Of all the northern houses who support the nights watch none did as much as the starks. "You want to be a hero" was the other tell that Mance knew Jon better than Jon did.
Mance wanted to get thru the gates and realized Jon might be the key (and he was) but I don't think Mance believed Jon's story.
No he did not believe Jon's story but probably realized the same thing he taught Jon. They are not enemies and the real enemy was the Others. (Which, like Winter, was quickly defeated in the final underwhelming season)
I think you could also take it as he did believe him in the end because he believes Jon wants to fight against the white walkers and defeat them to become a hero to mankind which is basically what Jon ends up doing
Yes i was thinking about this for a while, right here he knew that whatever happened..that if Jon either kills him or betrays “the cause” he knew that there’d be atleast some sort of passing of the torch to Jon and he would end up doing the right thing
@@matthewmahoney4004 Is that an alternate ending to season 8? It was Jon and not Arya that defeated the Walkers lol
Very interesting explanation!
4:27 that reaction from Mance is so important. He had no idea the nights watch was quasi-allied with the white walkers, he had no idea that even the lord commander knew what was coming for them.
Back when the show was a masterpiece. Pure perfection in a scene , it makes me so sad now
You guys didn’t get the ending YOU wanted. You should have wrote it, then. Did you really think after all you saw the whole show and through the books that everything would be perfect at the end? All you’re doing is jumping on a bandwagon of hate and pretending that the show isn’t a masterpiece. It’s been years now and you and other people are still fishing for likes and attention saying the same thing over and over about the ending. Let it go. If you want a real explanation on why the dialogue and the show wasn’t as polished at the end as it was majority of the show, take it up with GRRM. He stopped writing the final books as soon as the money from HBO hit his bank account. Hard to keep up the same quality when some of the best books ever written don’t have an ending and never will.
@asonofclay. 1ofmany it’ll change, these people are sheep. Remember the Star Wars Prequels a few years ago? People couldn’t stop making fun of them and talking about how bad they were and that it was a horrible thing for “the real Star Wars in my day.” Now they’re cinematic masterpieces and better than the original trilogy. All it takes is a group of people to give a narrative and these people just repeat it over and over to be like everyone else. The ending of Sopranos had people so pissed and it was crucified and now it’s the GOAT the last few years. Ridiculous.
@@thebadaids This. Too many entitled babies who completely dismiss the entire journey to get to the end. The show was amazing, sorry it didn't fit your perfect narrative but at the end of the day we got a lot to be thankful for.
@@papaya32 This. Both of you are complete morons. Ending was shit, regardless of personal preferences. Very hard to understand because, I repeat, bot of u are morons.
Who was the random ax guy in that tent? So unnecessary. Lance and tormund and Ygritte and bones are plenty enough for the speaking lines
This is one of Kit's best moments. At first Jon's body language betrays his uncertainty and he can't hold Mance's eye. He's Ned Stark's boy, he couldn't lie his way out of anything. He's terrible. So then he tells Mance the truth of the thing he saw, of the thing that genuinely _did_ cause him to doubt if he was fighting for the right side, and he just stares Mance down without hesitation. And Mance stares back and goes "Yep. You've seen The Thing. That's the look you get when you actually have."
Indeed
"why do you want to join us lord snow?"
"i WuNt Te Be FrEeEe" LMAO the way he said that sounded like an obvious lie, that's great acting to be honest.
people say he's a bad actor but he's really good, in some scenes he really kills it, specially the well written scenes.
If the writing is bad, only so much an actor can do to make it better.
Lol if this was the same quality as season 8, when Jon said "I wunt to be freeeeheee" Mance would have said "OK you're in"
Jon Snow here is a better written character than the Season 8 Jon Snow.
In the books his reason for joining is more convincing. Mance was at that feast in winterFell before Jon went to the wall. Jon argued that his basted status is why he wanted to “turncoat” and join a free society like the free folk
That typing style is annoying
I Like chHiKeN
This scene is so chilling, as is all the scenes that relate to the White Walkers. They're such a mysterious and ominous enemy, as well as dangerous, that any mention of them immediately makes you hair stand. It's almost like they don't even exist, phasing in and out like ghosts in the snow, like a force of nature. And the characters recognize it. Just by the way they talk about them you can tell how frightening they are.
You don't really know anything about them, just that they have some kind of prerogative and intent in what they do. It's disturbing. It's a real crime how awfully they were treated in the final season. Such disrespect and incompetence to make this unique threat in fiction meet such a dismal end.
The fact that we - and the characters - know nothing about them is part of why they're so scary early on.
The mystery of not knowing is a key part of horror. What's the scariest part of a horror film? It's the bit when the monster is lurking in the shadows, when it sees the characters but they don't see it.
What's the least scary part of a horror movie? The monster money shot. The part at the end when we see the monster fully, right before it dies.
That's The Silence and The Weeping Angels got less scary in every episode of Doctor Who they were in.
And it's part of why The Others (which is a name which already hints at something alien and unknowable) were so scary in the early seasons.
Of course, they were also reduced significantly by the way they were portrayed in the later seasons - none of them except The Night King ever did anything except stand there, with the sole exception of the two that Jon killed. Their motivations changed from mysterious to "just wanna kill everyone cuz we're evil". The Night King was stupid. They never achieved anything notable, never killed anyone we care about.
"What about Theon?" I hear you ask.
No-one we _care_ about.
And then BAM, they are literally zombies from the walking dead. pathetic. they hollywooded this tv show to the ground
The idea of the dead coming back for us is such a terrifying idea if done right. Most books, movies, and tv shows get it wrong with them just being a joke. Early GoT and the Song of Ice and Fire books get it right. The early seasons of GoT could’ve been a drama and turned into a straight horror with the dead crossing over the wall.
It's okay you just need to drop your knife from one hand to the other and then you can stab the night king
You absolutely nailed it with the not knowing about a lurking fear part.
I'm disappointed that Kevin McKidd didn't have a more prominent role in GoT. He's a good actor.
"I, am the son, of HADES!"
HOLY FUCKING SHIT YOU TRICKED ME
*cough* Julius Caesar *cough*
Explanations please
@@thedjsubii Ciaran Hinds(Mance Rayder) portrayed Julius Caesar in HBO ROME. The guy sitting behind him surprisingly just happened to looked abit like Kevin Mckidd who also in HBO ROME as a Centurion/Gang leader for Caesars campaign both politically and military warfare. Surprisingly another actor Tobias Menzies(Edmure Tully) also from HBO ROME portrayed Brutus. You should watch the series it has the same caliber as the first two seasons of Game of Thrones. Hope this helps ya👍
“plenty of little skeletons buried in the woods” rip jojen
The beginning of one of the greatest friendships in tv.
Jon snow and Tormund Giantsbane 🤗
Jon won mance's trust by telling him why he truly doubted his lord commander.
"There's no better way to overpower a trickle of doubt than with a flood of naked truth" : house of cards
i feel like they should stayed true to the books here
if i recall Jon does indeed say at first he 'wants to be free' and Mance doesn't believe him
then Jon says something like "You told me before, that you sneaked south of the wall and attended a wedding at Winterfell, and i bet you saw my father, and my mother, and all my brothers and sisters sitting at the head table... and did you see where i was sitting? Did you see where they sat the bastard..."
Mance never went to winterfell he’s defo lying but he could tell jon was telling the truth about his place as a bastard (treated like a wildling)
@@oscarbennion42 ? wtf, Mance was at Winterfell. He was taking the identity of Abel the bard, we know of at least two times he did that.
Truly better. However jon never said he wanted to be free, he nailed it the first time
This version is better than the book, wildlings have been through way worse shit then being stuck at the baby table in a warm castle. Fighting the white walkers is something they relate to and sympathize with making easier for Jon to convince them.
@@buddyfats4768 I think both scenes work for their mediums. When you're watching the show and seeing their facial expressions, then yea, saying anything less than what he did seems trite. But in the book, because the writing is good and the scene is in your head, you're just more hit with how clever the words are than if you were literally watching Jon Snow complain about sitting at the kid's table.
This scene demonstrates that Jon Snow was able to think quick on his feet, somehow that disappeared as soon as D&D were doing all the writing.
I dun want et
Yew ahr my Quheeeeeeeen
Haha, his name's Mance Rayder and he RAIDS places!! So funny
Ha. Holy fuck balls!
+Ghost of Ramsay Bolton hi umm how are the dogs
GRRM's names from children's castle-play sessions help the modern audience to not loose track.
The best one is the knight Ser Leygood whose wife gets a good lay by Bronn
Mance's actor is amazing, such that I keep coming back to the scene for his various facial inflections. Also good acting by Kit Harrington, his second (and crucial) answer to Mance draws upon the fact that he did indeed feel confcliting emotions upon learning that the Lord Commander knew what Craster was doing.
You should check out Rome on HBO, mance’s actor plays Caesar and his acting really shines.
HE WAS A CONSUL OF ROME
Ciaran Hines
He played Julius Caesar in Rome .
@@Subfugetruer words never spoken.
"I saw crastor take his newborn baby boy into the woods at night. and i saw what took him. I want to be the one who fights for the living. "
This is all john needed to say to make mance rayder take a complete shine to him. And make him part of the clan. Because thats exactly how mance rayder thinks. Lets not forget he knows the "southern" folk ( northern), and he respects them and their honor.
He came back from the dead to yell at an undead dragon
Don't remind me.
All this just for that. They butchered his arc.
I would have been happier even if his arc of being " the real king of seven kingdoms, or being a Targaryen." would not have played out But he needed to complete his arc as a protagonist against the night king, his whole story was setup in that direction from season one. He should have fought the night king, even get killed in the process..no problem But he just fucking yelled at a dragon
@@Blank_really Yep, those two buffons destroyed him completely.
@@stevem2323they destroyed everything, Stannis, Euron and the greyjoys, the dornish plotline.. buffoons indeed
"And did you see where I was seated Mance? Did you see where they put the bastard?"
One of the best chapters from the books
You know, this is actually one case where I do think I prefer the way the dialogue in the show was handled better! I really liked this chapter on the whole, but I think Jon's response in the show is a great example of him using his honesty in a way that *was* very smart. He won Mance over because what he was saying, he absolutely meant, even if the Free Folk all kind of still knew that he wasn't truly going to go against the Night's Watch.
If I'm remembering correctly, I don't think the incident with the baby and Craster even happened in the book, so obviously that same reason wouldn't really be viable to book Jon, but still, it just makes a lot more sense to me than his bastard status being the reason for his deserting, given then... why would that be a reason for him to leave the Night's Watch? It was the reason he left Winterfell and *joined* the Watch, for sure, but it wouldn't be a logical reason why he would then leave the Watch.
This might be the only part of the show that improved from the books. Jon’s reason is much more convincing here than whining about how he was seated at a shitty table.
2:56 "Is he a ham?"
The great thing about this scene is it reinforces the Stark position of dealing in the truth (ironic, considering it's Jon Snow). He didn't have a chance with Mance until he told the truth, which was risky in its unbelievability.
This scene is amazing even if Manse didn’t fully believe his story. But he was definitely terrified when he told him about the white walkers. Those last few lines from John were freaking powerful.
Tormund recognizes here that there's no way Jon killed Half-Hand, he's smart in his own way but they made him in to this dumb uncivilized goofy wild-ling at the end of the show because they were incompetent
the White Walker theme suddenly playing in the middle of dialogue as soon as they mention them is amazing music timing and the music itself is just perfect, menacing, cold and there's something terrifying about it.
the music in this show was always perfect, all the different themes for different houses and different groups, it perfectly suited them, I always thought the Musician/Composer for this show understood the writing and the story better than the actual writers of the show.
Jon's purported reason for joining the free folk is so good, I actually think it's an improvement on the book.
There's a few examples of this. GRRM said a few times there is things he wish he did slightly differently so I believe small improvements like this is what he meant
@@yilmazh3127 like Raff's death being a combination of Poliver and Trant's deaths from the show?
The best lies have an element of truth, the lord commander was keeping secrets and he did believe the fight against the dead mattered more than anything.
It really isn't a good reason at all, and it isn't believable. He didn't offer any explanation whatsoever as to why he thinks the night's watch isn't "fighting for the living" and the wildlings are, they're all going to be fighting for the living since they are living.
@@jebediah4780 he was implying the majority of the night’s watch cares more about killing wildlings than worrying about bigger problems, which was true for a big chunk of it.
‘He was a CONSUL OF DORNE!’
Mance was a great character. I know this show is supposed to be brutal reality themed and shows that heroics don’t always win, and I respected that, but I really wish they had kept some of the better characters. Like Mance. Who’s still alive in the books.
Mance rayder is just the coolest name ever. So badass sounding.
I used to be a regular watcher of GOT clips on UA-cam. This show managed to capture the imagination and fantasy that really helps us elevate, even if briefly. Then season 8 happened and more the finale. I now seldom revisit GOT content and when I do, I feel disappointed.
What do you think was the problem with the finale?
@@psynque it was hella rushed
Talking Thrones…great UA-cam channel. He did a 2-hour do-over of how season 8 should’ve gone. I loved it. Listened to it a few times since it was released. Now when I think of the end of the show, I don’t think of HBO’s version, I think of the awesome Talking Thrones version
@@psynque What was the problem? Everything......
And problems started way before, even before season 7.
I do the same, first i enjoyed them and then i remember what they did to the show. And it's not just the season 8, 7 is almost equally bad.
Preferred his story in the book more. As they were talking, Mance told Jon that he was at Winterfell when the king came to name Eddard hand of the King.
He infiltrated as a bard and had a good look at the Starks.
Hearing this Jon finally knows how to play Mance. He asks Mance about the party and then eventually where Jon was. As a bastard Jon was not allowed to be with the rest. Jon knew it was due to Catelyn but Mance did not, so when Jon pointed out that he was always an outcast, Mance believed him.
The fact that Jon being a bastard ended up saving his life, and that of the Nightswatch.
"Did you see a place for me at that table?"
If you really think about it, mance was likely lying to jon about being there as it’s hella far fetched that mance would travel to winterfell for months leaving behind the wildlings just to get a good look of Robert Baratheon, shows his manipulation skills to get jon to support him if he plays the part he was secretly at winterfell, only thought about this on a re read so I could be wrong
He went to Winterfell. If you don't believe it, read the wiki or the books.
@@CodexQuinn Ive read the books but u do realise how crazy it sounds that he went there, wouldve have taken months and months and is a huge risk, i personally mance is lying but thats just what i think
@@CodexQuinn In the books you only have Mance's word that he made the trip, nothing he knows about the King's feast at Winterfell would actually require him to be there. Like sitting a bastard at a crap table at a king's feast would be pretty common, and he could already know through spies or traders that Benjen Stark was headed to Winterfell, the same way he knew about the King coming north. Jon introduces himself first, if Mance said "Hello Jon Snow, Ned Stark's bastard" then it'd make the story more credible.
Mance is a bard, a spinner of stories and songs, it's likely he was trying to impress Jon. It's not totally an unbelievable story, it's canonically possible to make such a journey and join a large group of travellers. What makes it less believable is Mance leaving his wife behind , although Mance is more reckless in the books.
Ciaran Hinds was amazing in this show. Mance was a great leader, similar to Jon in the later seasons. A good man who didn't want to fight but new he had to
This one killed the Half-hand. "HE WAS A COUNSUL OF ROME!!!"
Roman consul
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_consul
Something about this scene that always bothered me: 2:23 Mance calls Tormund "chicken-eater". Where the hell did Tormund find a chicken up in the frozen wastes?
prob stole it from one of the raids beyond the wall
They did raids
I've kept chickens for real, as long as they have a coop to go into then they are fine, BTW this was in -20c / -4f so yeah totally plausible :) and before any calls bullshit I'll take you to where I'm from, bet the fucking chickens survive longer than you :)
@@NeilTheFerret1 No need for that, stay there where you belong.
Back when GOT was good.
Guess What? Bugger off it still IS!
Yes before the mess that was Season 8.
@@plisskenetic Lmao you and whose army
Was GREAT
1:52 I swear I instantly recognized him.
I jumped up in front of everyone and shouted "HAIL CAESAR!"🤚
😂
He was a Consul of Rome!
@@warlordofbritannia but...they are wildlings.....
Jon Snow bows.
T’Challa: We don’t do that here.
anyone else think Mance looks like a Sioux or an Apache?
+MoustacheWizard1337 Nah, I think he looks like Julius Caesar.
Ciaran Hinds, the actor who plays Mance, is Irish.
Can't speak for the Apache but as a Dakhota ("Sioux") I say no.
Aberforth Dumbledore sends his regards.
I always loved the relation between John and Ygritte, how they showed it. Turns out they were not acting :D
beautiful dialog
Kit harington is a phenomenal actor, this is one of his best scenes in the show
Damn Caesar had some ruff years after he got assasinated and brought back to life
I need this kind of confidence and motivation for my job interviews.
"...and there's plenty of little skeletons, buried in the woods." 💀
Perfect Tormund introduction
And in the end, Jon became the next Mance Rayder!, the new King Beyond the Wall, among the people of Ygritte! Beautiful bittersweet ending!
Nah, it was shit, his arc meant nothing
@@sandraelizabeth3381 "Your arc means nothin' Jon Snow'
Bullshit, they destroyed his character, and many other tho.
It’s funny that the wild men stood with Jon more than his own ppl he’s the first lord commander who saved and let them inside the wall
From leading Roman Armies and crossing the Rubicon to Leading Wildlings and Crossing the Wall
George RR Martine showing us all the importance of a good script writer.
Mance is right about Jon here.Jon never wanted to be free...in the books he wanted to be Ned's lawful son.
Honestly liked how they did this scene in the show better than the books. Always felt strange for Jon to go with the crybaby "no one likes me because I'm a bastard" justification rather than telling Mance what he just experienced at Craster's. Although its been awhile since I've read ACOK so maybe he didn't actually see a white walker take Craster's baby in the book.
Either way, Kit Harrington and Ciran Hinds crushed this scene.
God the writing and tension was so good early on. Every episode every week was an event.
I may be wrong, but I can't really ever remember somebody who was a king or lord or any other in this show ever shaking somebody's hand, who would be considered below them in terms of the hierarchy of that world. Mance was cool
Well if you remember robert baratheon shook robb starks hand and yeah robb was below him in social hierarchy
In the books, the tent is warm, brightly lit, good food, has music playing., and the most beautiful woman in A Song of Ice and Fire, Val the Wildling Princess, is there.
"I AM YOUR FATHER" LOL
I saw a pretty good fanfiction about that.
Link ?
Ah my favorite captain wentworth! Such a great actor.
It’s almost poetic that Jon in the end becomes the king beyond the wall
The scene was well done but Jon should have said he wanted to be free of being a bastard like in the books. It was a better motivation because it was true to what Jon wanted and connects with his actual positive feelings towards being a Wildling.
Since the conversation turned differently, he had to take another tack with Mance dismissing "I want to be free" out of hand. Wanting to fight for the living is true, and not incompatible with wanting to be a hero.
The way she looks back is real , like am going to own you for good.
HE WAS A CONSUL OF ROME
Jon Snow just Torrhen Stark, he kneel lol
It's nice to see how much respect every one of them respects Mance. Every time Jon sharpens his words just a little towards Mance, they get triggered.
Haha. Tirmund the future "Hype Man" Of Jon. 😁
Powerful statement! Powerful scene!
I SUBBED :D
Yup, Bruce Wayne, me too. Just read it today and cried a bit. Real man tears.#disrespect
How can you possibly prefer the books reason? He sounds like a spoiled brat in the books, saying he wants to join them because of how he was treated at the feast for Robert. Here, he has a far better and more mature reason, one that most wouldn't fault him for.
Wesley Molt
He might sound like a spoiled brat in the book, but I thought the book version was believable. His reason in this is lame.
Howlin MadMurphy
Why is it lame? He felt betrayed by Mormont because Mormont defended Craster's actions. Snow wanted to fight to defend the Realm, that's why he took the Black. That faith in the Watch was shaken when he discovered that Mormont turned a blind eye to Craster paying off the Walkers with innocent children as sacrifices. Lame is the last word I'd use for this scene.
Howlin MadMurphy Keep in mind the agree difference between the books and the show. I believe in the books he was only 16 at this point.
Louis O'Halloran Age*
Season 4 is when GoT started going downhill in terms of mythology. The writing was absolutely stellar in that season, but introducing the Night King simplified the white walkers from this unfathomable, brutal force of nature into a generic fantasy villain.
JRR Tolkien’s version of Mance Rayder stands back for George RR Martins. 😂
all these awesome white walker allusions and hints mean nothing now lol
God's the writing was good then
God it was strong
WINE
tywinislit and Eddard It still IS u twat
“Once we’re beyond the wall we shall March on the senate of Rome!”
“What?”
“What?”
Julius Caeser
The most beautiful thing about this scene is that Jon clearly stated to Daenarys why he would not bend. Mance did the same and now we get why he refused to kneel as Jon did. He would not give his people to stannis just to kneel to another king.
Alternate timeline where Julius Caesar joins the Gauls
Cesar in another life after his assassination
Assassination of Julius Caesar
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Julius_Caesar
Im still pissed off at how the Wildlings (once a massive force to rightfully be feared) was so simply desintegrated by the Golden Company, and that in the end only a sorry handfull remain after the Battle of the Bastards. Worse still, I would have wanted Giants and Mammoths to be integrated in the army of the North, but Ramsay the literal Bastard had to go and kill the last one. As for Mance Rayder, he is one who should be feared by all when you consider that he managed to unite them all despite the rivalrous dissent between all these clans.
This scene is worth more than two last seasons
When jon snow was a well written caractere
Jon in the books tell Mance that he Joined the night watch because he had no place in winterfell
Mance is right INFJ men do have hero complex, trust me I am an INFJ male and a firefighter
Someone said Rayder was once Aberforth Dumbledore.
Really miss this grounded historical fiction production of the earlier seasons that complimented the story by giving it’s world building a mysterious; eerie feel to it.
It’s absolutely criminal that D&D turned the show into an empty generic blockbuster fantasy with inconsequential fighting scenes replacing everything that made the show truly something.
I guess Mence, as was mentioned, didn't believe John in neither of the stories. But he made him tell a better one so that other wildlings believe him, thus making him legitimised in theirs and John's own eyes
Man... I miss this show. Even with the last couple seasons including light speed dragon flight and a "we're winging it" type feel...still miss all the anticipation, new episodes...what a time.
i miss this show 😔
I’m not gonna sit here and dog pile on D&D, it’s beyond played out, however I just like to imagine a world with a Game Of Thrones with 100 episodes; 10 Seasons with 10 Episodes each. That’s the real high fantasy. One can only dream.
They were right on track for a while there too, the first 6 seasons each had 10 episodes but alas we had to deal with thinned our final 2 seasons. Such a shame.
I just wish they let go and passed the baton onto writers who weren't burnt out. HBO was willing to stretch it out :(
God damn talk of the white walkers makes me so sad.
I don't know how I expected it to end, but I did expect that the north would retreat further and further south. Until they found themselves half pounding at the gates of King Landing, and half running further south and deserting.
I've been enjoying rewatching the old highlights of the show. Mainly because I couldn't imagine watching a single full episode, let alone the whole show.
Fuck the directors. This will go down as one of the greatest show being brought down to one of the worst.
Exactly. The White Walkers should have pushed Westeros right to the edge of desperation to test everyone's priorities. Then, imo when Cersei chooses wrong Jaime should have been there to put a sword in her back and save the kingdom again. There's very little payoff for any character arc in the show.
"Did I come to the right place?" Damn!!!
Man S3 was still pretty good, but you can see they already started to deviate unnecesarily from the source material. This scene was much more interesting and complex in the books.
She is The best story teller of all time…
HE WAS A MEMBER OF STARK! A MEMBER OF STARK
During the show's running, I supported 100% Mance and his people. The "savages" were the only legitimate rulers of Westeros. They lived in the north way before the wall was made. And what's more, they were free people. They chose their leaders, unlike Westeros people who had to live under the rule of vicious and power hungry kings.