such a shame that Daggers are so scuffed for rogues in TBC. In my mind the Dagger is the most rogue-oriented weapon. The class fantasy is sneaking around and stabbing people with daggers lol. Combat just feels like a leather wearing Warrior.
@@newjerseyjustin I like combat for what it is, played it all of Vanilla Classic. It just didn't feel very Rogue-ish to me personally. Since prepatch i swapped to Sub/Hemo as I intend on being more pvp oriented for TBC since I know I have 0 shot at glaives- not gonna bother with PVE. Sub has been sooo much fun and exactly what I was missing, especially with Shadowstep. Now that TBC is also bringing back Cloak of Shadows i feel like a real rogue, just without daggers. I am gonna go Fist Weapons instead as they feel rogue oriented to me
Sarthe doesn't take credit. He has never claimed that he came up with it on his own and always talks about and links to Silent Shadows or wherever he found the info.
In classic vanilla I played swords while leveling and got so bored switched to daggers with the six set ShadowCraft in molten core and topping people much geared than me just a fun beautiful speck
I appreciate your videos brother. Rogue has been my main since I started playing wow (Legion) I was able to get Cutting Edge in Emerald Nightmare, Nighthold, and Tomb of Sargeras as well as currently 2400 in Arenas / 2600 in RBG's in Slands - I'd like to think Im considered well above average on retail rogue and despite all of that when I logged into my fresh boostie having never played Vanilla / TBC or their re-incarnated iterations I was completely LOST in the sauce. There is no shortage of content / guides designed for fresh rogues but I have to say your videos are Stier. I;ve watched them all and appreciate the practical, thorough, and concise information given. Subbed and looking forward to future videos. Cheers!
Been playing mutilate since Spiteblade has evaded me forever..I gotta say, Its A LOT of fun to raid with. I can still keep up on single target fights, aoe kinda sucks not having BF, but just the amount of combo points being generated and keeping find weakness up is a ton of fun. Huge double crits is a welcomed sight and just a whole different way of playing. If you are like me and having a crap time getting a good mainhand wep but got bis daggers, give it a shot. Its fun...The hard part / fun part? is the experimentation. not awhole lot of info on mutilate builds out there..but I gotta say its been refreshing to get away from the meta and just have fun.
Question on rotation; do you ONLY spam backstab to build CPs? or do you mix a few SS's in there to build CPs due to lower energy cost? I am having issues with energy and CPs to keep up both, SnD and Rupture (forget EA and Evisc lol; barely can keep those other 2 up). What's ur current rotation from Opener to finish? some fights are different yes, but for the most part, whats the Rogue Dagger rotation? Normal Combat Daggers spec.
my caveman brain just really likes the big numbers I get with backstab so maybe I'll give mutilate a try, do you have any videos with a sample talent build?
@@GniinG I speak for myself and everyone that has the misfortune to interact with you when I ask you to please think for just a second before you speak.
I have a lvl 49 Rogue as my main, and man, Backstep and does ~1,4k instead of ~800 dmg. Thats INSANE. But there are still plenty of talents like Shadowstep and other dmg increasing points to spent. So i didnt even think about Sword-hemo, for me it surely will be "dagger backstep" with hemo.
Great vid. I wish Mutilate was more viable in terms of aoe damage. It’s a great spec for single target dps. I think I’m gonna stick with daggers until I get a viable option for swords. Keep up the great work mate.
I was thinking of going Mutilate for BG's and 5 mans early on. Sounds like it's pretty good for that non min/max style of play. One build to get through content before I raid or arena rank?
Great video as always! Thoughts on PvP dagger spec rogue? Running backstab and ambush talents, and having weapon swap macros for hemo/backstab? - I've been testing this out and it feels really nice to play.
Considering the standard non-raid combination aldor-sword+Latro with a combat spec, would it make sense for me to change switch the Latro with a Nightblade dagger (which has something like 10dps more)? Wouldn't that increase my dps? (even considering that it's a 1.80 dagger and will not benefit from the sword specialization talent..) Am I totally wrong about it?
It is unfortunately way to slow. You want Lateos because it is fast and therefore gives you more combat potency procs as well as sword specialization procs, also added bonus is more potion procs.
Been leveling as mutilate and plan on casually raiding as mutilate as well as PvP. After damn near one shotting a priest my level that jumped me with a ks+cb+mutilate I am hooked lol.
Is it good to you a sword in your main hand and a fast dagger in your offhand? My beat sword hits at like 2.6 speed and my other one is 2.4 in my offhand.. should I switch to my dagger in my bag for my offhand it's like 1.8 speed...??..
Answered all my questions and concerns, I'm a gnome rogue and i hate swords because it doesn't feel rogue'ey. Class race fantasy I guess... Do I just go for the daggers in your bis guide? Ima be commited stubborn dagger rogue for life.
So obviously there’s optimal talent choices for each spec. (Question for everyone) Does that stop you from being creative with your talents and going a little different than the optimal? I’m planning a combat dagger rogue that dips into sub for the ambush crit cause it seems cool to me. But if I don’t go with the optimal talents, will I just be SOL? Or is it totally okay to go with talents I want to go with?
Hey this is @Zatar or anyone who can help answer. I mostly pvp mutilate because of the enjoyment I get out of it. Lately ive been thinking about in arena if during my exposed weakness + ks (and I know he has trinketed) I vanish cb ambush? I know this sounds crazy but im getting crazy numbers from ambush and I cant help thinking for the burst down would this be better than just using a cb mutilate in the rotation. I also may even be out of my mind for thinking about switching my heavy 54/0/7 heavy poison applying build and dropping ruthlessness for a 48/0/13 with imp ambush so i could vanish Ambush (hope for crit) cb mutilate . I would love some feedback on this. Also this is for arena and bg mainly arena though.
Gonna be going with combat daggers. Backstab play is just more fun than sword ss spam. Combat daggers isnt the same thing as combat swords.. also i prefer daggers in open world pvp, so while leveling it's just gonna be nice to have, even if it is combat. just switched to swords for leveling at like level 61 and i hate my life lol. Going back as soon as i get my dagger drops from SP,UB.
Mir told me via UA-cam comment that Mutilate is outdated. Bootz highest ranked player(+2700) in S3 OG , use to play 2v2 as Mutilate with Spriest and told me that his build was 53/0/7...but it was very very niche. It looks like that only somewhat viable comp is Muti/Spriest and i firmly believe that UD is must...
Depends on your off hand, but you should play full combat daggers if you have a good off hand Dagger. Otherwise, you could play daggers + Sword if you have latros and no good oh dagger.
How about ambush one shot? Cant do this with swords. Except the macro swap slot16 to 17, but some swords equip in main hand and we cant swap with macro for ambush. Then i do a New macro, but not was good, so slow to change. Can you explain more ?
You can swap a different weapon to your offhand if your slow weapon is mh only. Just include a 3rd weapon in the ambush / stealth macro. There is a slight delay on the weapon swap, but if you press the ability directly after the Ambush this delay will be minimal. The longer you wait after the Ambush to press your hemo macro, the slower the swap will be.
I've been waiting for someone to cover this subject for as long as the PTRs went online. Sadly every single gearing guides and discussions that came out of test realms are about combat sword. Did you, by any chance, try out mutilate in raid situation? It's a spec I'm really fond of and I might give it a try if my guild allows it ~
I'm killing it with combat daggers right now, guild has a few fury warriors and a sword rogue rn so I chose to play daggers so I don't have to compete for any of the weps, no glaives in the end but I'm having a blast raiding as is.
its sucks so much that assasination rogue is one of the worst classes yet one of the most fun to play and the most rogue like class there is. having to play with equipping poisons and going invis to deliver a strong attack from the back was so fun and made playing rogue interesting and you actually FELT like a rogue, as opposed to equipping two swords and running in and spamming sinister strike.
I love how we're talking like non-streamer rogues have a choice of anything. As there is one or no raid spot available for a rogue in a meta raid the guild is bringing you along to be nice. Then you better do whatever they tell you to or get benched.
drive.google.com/folderview?id=1IBZ9sD0MbRhfP1TWM-E2A8zW_tBzL5bp That is the Simon spreadsheet, if you check the DPS difference between the best swords vs the best daggers it's 2%. There's also an old elitist jerks Rogue guide that also cites 2%.
Cool video actaully, i really tought dagger just fucking suck at TBC but even i guess 3/4 % of dmg loss compared to swords with good procs are not that bad if u have a chance to get good daggers. Thanks for video, big up and u get sub.
I’m pretty much only leveling and gearing my rogue because I’m motivated by having glaives some day. Hopefully all the tryhards are still playing lock or hunter so there should be less competition.
every arena tryhard will play hemospam and most of the bg players will too, because not only is it more viable, it also requires no effort to do well with. sub daggers is where the fun is at though and is what the tree was made for. it still keeps a massive burst advantage. and another tip if you want to enjoy playing rogue, unbind cheap shot
such a shame that Daggers are so scuffed for rogues in TBC. In my mind the Dagger is the most rogue-oriented weapon. The class fantasy is sneaking around and stabbing people with daggers lol. Combat just feels like a leather wearing Warrior.
I miss combat ever since they gutted it for legion. Prep adren is insane
@@newjerseyjustin prep AR doesn't exist in patch 2.4.3
you speak from my heart
@@newjerseyjustin I like combat for what it is, played it all of Vanilla Classic. It just didn't feel very Rogue-ish to me personally.
Since prepatch i swapped to Sub/Hemo as I intend on being more pvp oriented for TBC since I know I have 0 shot at glaives- not gonna bother with PVE. Sub has been sooo much fun and exactly what I was missing, especially with Shadowstep. Now that TBC is also bringing back Cloak of Shadows i feel like a real rogue, just without daggers. I am gonna go Fist Weapons instead as they feel rogue oriented to me
@@Unforgiven11
You can go shadowstep daggers in phase 1 and be successful. Not in arena, of course, but in BGs/World PvP.
Zatar is like Sarthe but doesn't take credit for other people's work and can actually figure things out for himself.
Duuuude that's what marrow does in the fury community 😂
Sarthe doesn't take credit. He has never claimed that he came up with it on his own and always talks about and links to Silent Shadows or wherever he found the info.
This is exactly why i always dislike sarthes videos. And he talks way too much just to hit the minimum 10 minute video cap for UA-cam ads.
I have always just enjoyed the aesthetic of dagger rogues way more. Can you do a mutilate rotation video for raiding? I wanna give that a try
Mutilate > slice > mutilate 5cp envenom ( maintain slice ) rinse and repeat
In classic vanilla I played swords while leveling and got so bored switched to daggers with the six set ShadowCraft in molten core and topping people much geared than me just a fun beautiful speck
I appreciate your videos brother. Rogue has been my main since I started playing wow (Legion) I was able to get Cutting Edge in Emerald Nightmare, Nighthold, and Tomb of Sargeras as well as currently 2400 in Arenas / 2600 in RBG's in Slands - I'd like to think Im considered well above average on retail rogue and despite all of that when I logged into my fresh boostie having never played Vanilla / TBC or their re-incarnated iterations I was completely LOST in the sauce. There is no shortage of content / guides designed for fresh rogues but I have to say your videos are Stier. I;ve watched them all and appreciate the practical, thorough, and concise information given. Subbed and looking forward to future videos. Cheers!
Been playing mutilate since Spiteblade has evaded me forever..I gotta say, Its A LOT of fun to raid with. I can still keep up on single target fights, aoe kinda sucks not having BF, but just the amount of combo points being generated and keeping find weakness up is a ton of fun. Huge double crits is a welcomed sight and just a whole different way of playing. If you are like me and having a crap time getting a good mainhand wep but got bis daggers, give it a shot. Its fun...The hard part / fun part? is the experimentation. not awhole lot of info on mutilate builds out there..but I gotta say its been refreshing to get away from the meta and just have fun.
Question on rotation; do you ONLY spam backstab to build CPs? or do you mix a few SS's in there to build CPs due to lower energy cost? I am having issues with energy and CPs to keep up both, SnD and Rupture (forget EA and Evisc lol; barely can keep those other 2 up). What's ur current rotation from Opener to finish? some fights are different yes, but for the most part, whats the Rogue Dagger rotation? Normal Combat Daggers spec.
If rupture is not up 24/7 it’s no big deal. just make sure slice and dice is up and keep backstabbing
my caveman brain just really likes the big numbers I get with backstab so maybe I'll give mutilate a try, do you have any videos with a sample talent build?
except you don't use backstab along with mutilate ? :3
@@GniinG I speak for myself and everyone that has the misfortune to interact with you when I ask you to please think for just a second before you speak.
I love it huge burst then i noticed every rogue using swords im like fuck im doing it wrong lol
@@sir_ladykiller1803 you're not doing it wrong. dagger build is amazing for world pvp. for arena you might struggle more
I have a lvl 49 Rogue as my main, and man, Backstep and does ~1,4k instead of ~800 dmg. Thats INSANE. But there are still plenty of talents like Shadowstep and other dmg increasing points to spent. So i didnt even think about Sword-hemo,
for me it surely will be "dagger backstep" with hemo.
Great vid. I wish Mutilate was more viable in terms of aoe damage. It’s a great spec for single target dps.
I think I’m gonna stick with daggers until I get a viable option for swords.
Keep up the great work mate.
Great perspective. Love the constant content easy simple and precise. Twitch subbed to support the UA-cam content. Well worth thanks man!
I was thinking of going Mutilate for BG's and 5 mans early on. Sounds like it's pretty good for that non min/max style of play. One build to get through content before I raid or arena rank?
Great video as always!
Thoughts on PvP dagger spec rogue?
Running backstab and ambush talents, and having weapon swap macros for hemo/backstab? - I've been testing this out and it feels really nice to play.
Considering the standard non-raid combination aldor-sword+Latro with a combat spec, would it make sense for me to change switch the Latro with a Nightblade dagger (which has something like 10dps more)? Wouldn't that increase my dps? (even considering that it's a 1.80 dagger and will not benefit from the sword specialization talent..) Am I totally wrong about it?
It is unfortunately way to slow. You want Lateos because it is fast and therefore gives you more combat potency procs as well as sword specialization procs, also added bonus is more potion procs.
Been leveling as mutilate and plan on casually raiding as mutilate as well as PvP. After damn near one shotting a priest my level that jumped me with a ks+cb+mutilate I am hooked lol.
Is it good to you a sword in your main hand and a fast dagger in your offhand? My beat sword hits at like 2.6 speed and my other one is 2.4 in my offhand.. should I switch to my dagger in my bag for my offhand it's like 1.8 speed...??..
You want a really fast off-hand. I would try to get a fast sword.
Answered all my questions and concerns, I'm a gnome rogue and i hate swords because it doesn't feel rogue'ey. Class race fantasy I guess... Do I just go for the daggers in your bis guide? Ima be commited stubborn dagger rogue for life.
Yes, my bis guide includes many dagger options
Can't wait to run hand of the deceiver/Muramasa and shred fools in 2s
What about ambush spec?
So obviously there’s optimal talent choices for each spec. (Question for everyone) Does that stop you from being creative with your talents and going a little different than the optimal?
I’m planning a combat dagger rogue that dips into sub for the ambush crit cause it seems cool to me. But if I don’t go with the optimal talents, will I just be SOL? Or is it totally okay to go with talents I want to go with?
Just get a dps meter and check for yourself. There might be info on it somewhere but idk.
Hey this is @Zatar or anyone who can help answer. I mostly pvp mutilate because of the enjoyment I get out of it. Lately ive been thinking about in arena if during
my exposed weakness + ks (and I know he has trinketed) I vanish cb ambush? I know this sounds crazy but im getting crazy numbers from ambush and I cant help thinking
for the burst down would this be better than just using a cb mutilate in the rotation. I also may even be out of my mind for thinking about switching my heavy 54/0/7 heavy poison applying build and dropping ruthlessness for a 48/0/13 with imp ambush so i could vanish Ambush (hope for crit) cb mutilate . I would love some feedback on this. Also this is for arena and bg mainly arena though.
Please leave the end of the fight in if the boss is on 10%
Boss died
@@Zatar But what dropped
It was the beta, but leather belt Idk what else. No dft
Gonna be going with combat daggers. Backstab play is just more fun than sword ss spam. Combat daggers isnt the same thing as combat swords.. also i prefer daggers in open world pvp, so while leveling it's just gonna be nice to have, even if it is combat. just switched to swords for leveling at like level 61 and i hate my life lol. Going back as soon as i get my dagger drops from SP,UB.
hey bro what do you think about mutilate/ feral 2vs2?
what would be your mutilate pvp specc.
deep poison or 41/20/0
can you link a specc.
Mir told me via UA-cam comment that Mutilate is outdated.
Bootz highest ranked player(+2700) in S3 OG , use to play 2v2 as Mutilate with Spriest and told me that his build was 53/0/7...but it was very very niche.
It looks like that only somewhat viable comp is Muti/Spriest and i firmly believe that UD is must...
if you're going to play swords, why would you play rogue. the two are pretty much mutually exclusive. You're a third rate warrior at that point.
Hey, could you please please do a video on 70 rogue pvp/pve specs and their rotations?
Nice channel dude! Please cover the rep grind prio 🤩Stay safe!
if i got Malchazeen, what build i should play for pve? my others weapons are worst.
Depends on your off hand, but you should play full combat daggers if you have a good off hand Dagger. Otherwise, you could play daggers + Sword if you have latros and no good oh dagger.
How about ambush one shot? Cant do this with swords. Except the macro swap slot16 to 17, but some swords equip in main hand and we cant swap with macro for ambush. Then i do a New macro, but not was good, so slow to change. Can you explain more ?
You can swap a different weapon to your offhand if your slow weapon is mh only. Just include a 3rd weapon in the ambush / stealth macro. There is a slight delay on the weapon swap, but if you press the ability directly after the Ambush this delay will be minimal. The longer you wait after the Ambush to press your hemo macro, the slower the swap will be.
I've been waiting for someone to cover this subject for as long as the PTRs went online.
Sadly every single gearing guides and discussions that came out of test realms are about combat sword.
Did you, by any chance, try out mutilate in raid situation? It's a spec I'm really fond of and I might give it a try if my guild allows it ~
I did try it, it's not too bad, but it feels rough in short fights and aoe situations.
Very fun spec though.
Hahahahaha thank you man, ask and ye shall receive.
I'm killing it with combat daggers right now, guild has a few fury warriors and a sword rogue rn so I chose to play daggers so I don't have to compete for any of the weps, no glaives in the end but I'm having a blast raiding as is.
its sucks so much that assasination rogue is one of the worst classes yet one of the most fun to play and the most rogue like class there is. having to play with equipping poisons and going invis to deliver a strong attack from the back was so fun and made playing rogue interesting and you actually FELT like a rogue, as opposed to equipping two swords and running in and spamming sinister strike.
I always use daggers as a sub. Why?? Fast poison proc
I love how we're talking like non-streamer rogues have a choice of anything. As there is one or no raid spot available for a rogue in a meta raid the guild is bringing you along to be nice. Then you better do whatever they tell you to or get benched.
Sez u
I'm a sucker for maces
Do you have any proof that the difference is 2%? Any spreadsheets of sorts?
drive.google.com/folderview?id=1IBZ9sD0MbRhfP1TWM-E2A8zW_tBzL5bp
That is the Simon spreadsheet, if you check the DPS difference between the best swords vs the best daggers it's 2%. There's also an old elitist jerks Rogue guide that also cites 2%.
Can you even keep up SnD and expose armor as daggers? Sounds pretty sketchy with 60 energy builder.
no you cant, thats why reg combat swords is better
Cool video actaully, i really tought dagger just fucking suck at TBC but even i guess 3/4 % of dmg loss compared to swords with good procs are not that bad if u have a chance to get good daggers. Thanks for video, big up and u get sub.
did u wipe on gruul?
We cleared it. Was very close though
honestly, just play the spec that u enjoy even if it sucks. I am a mut specced rogue.
By experience arena as warlock season 3 or 4 I m not remember I fight vs rogue priest and the rogue has illidan wepons he destroy me !!!!!
I think I’m gonna try mutilate in pvp for the weekend
I’m pretty much only leveling and gearing my rogue because I’m motivated by having glaives some day. Hopefully all the tryhards are still playing lock or hunter so there should be less competition.
Are combat rogues this bad ?
Not really. T6 with armour pen. Mutilate spec should top dps. Except people ha warglaives ki da OP
hey its me again trying to tell you that rogue still "okay" ahaha
You're going to need melee on pretty much every fight for kicks and rogues have a lot of survivability. Are you a salty warrior or something?
every arena tryhard will play hemospam and most of the bg players will too, because not only is it more viable, it also requires no effort to do well with. sub daggers is where the fun is at though and is what the tree was made for. it still keeps a massive burst advantage. and another tip if you want to enjoy playing rogue, unbind cheap shot
Unbind cheapshot? Wut
Easier to get swords? There's ONE sword in all of tier 4, and 3 daggers in Karazhan... If memory serves there's only one in tier 5 as well
Easier than classic, not easier than daggers.
Just boosted a rogue now I’m not a just a warrior hanging out on the rogue channel
I have to say in a less than 6 min fight, 900DPS is super low. I did 970+ DPS with sword in a 7:30 fight
legendary swords do more damage than purple daggers?? you really think that needs to be pointed out?
Uh wtf lol, especially at the end of TBC daggers are BIS for PVP