Maxims in the Skies: the German LMG 08/15
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- Опубліковано 23 кві 2024
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As soon as the MG08/15 "light" machine gun was adopted by Germany, it was recognized as an ideal basis for an aircraft gun. Weight was of the essence for WW1 aircraft, and a lightened Maxim was just the thing to use. So the Spandau Arsenal began producing the LMG08/15 (the "L" in which might stand for either air-cooled or lightweight; we really don't know which) in May 1916. In addition to cutting a ton of lightening slots in the water jacket, the guns also had mechanisms added to allow a pilot to cycle both the bolt and the feed system from behind the gun (something not possible with a standard ground model). The example we are looking at today has a great example of an early style of such device completely intact...
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why were comments off at first?
UA-cam's new thing apparently is randomly shutting off comments. I have turned them back on for this video four (edit: now 5) (edit again: now 6) (edit again: now 7) (edit: now 8) (edit: now 9) times (seriously) in the 15 minutes it has been live.
@@ForgottenWeapons Apparently they think your content is for kids so they shut off the comments automatically.
@@GA-br8wj 'The Adventures of Maxi, the Flying German Machine Gun' 😂
@@ForgottenWeapons Thanks for the reply and explanation. I have long since come to assume youtube is actively undermining all gun related channels. This is just their latest scheme. Gotta love silicon valley techbros that live in gated communities protected by guards with guns, but dont want the common man armed.
@GA-br8wj Maybe if I stop banning the porn bots they will assume it's not for children?
Nice to see M-LOK handguards have a long and storied history.
Haha I had the exact same reaction.
"2 Dumme 1 Gedanke", as the Germans would say😅
Lol
I would like to see Ian take this to a match with a Magpul m-lok foregrip now.
@@_ArsNova Next backup gun match for sure!
Browning was trully a genius!
small German lesson for the term 'LMG':
> while the German word for air is "Luft", it doesn't fit for the abbreviation "LMG" outright.
> "Luftmaschinengewehr (LMG)" would not mean 'Aircraft MG' but rather 'pneumatic-' or 'Air powered MG'.
However, there is another term starting with L that would fit:
> "luftgekühltes MG" or 'air cooled MG' would probably still be written as LMG.
What did we learn?
Don't let linguists anywhere near military terminology.
The LMG 08/15 was introduced as "leichtes MG 08/15", so it's completely unrelated to anything with "Luft". There's is slightly older version with a small "l", so lMG 08/15. That does indeed mean "luftgekühlt", but the gun on the video is an LMG 08/15, with a capital "L". The lMG didn't have the cutouts, it was really just an air-cooled MG 08.
@@Nickname-hier-einfuegen Wouldn't that lead to the abbreviation of leMG though? Similar to how leichte Feldhaubitze is abbreviated as leFH, or the leichte Infanteriegeschütz is abbreviated as le.IG?
@@Nickname-hier-einfuegen Or maybe it is lMG 08/15 but Ian just wrote the name wrong?
This is why we Germans had a ton of Fun going to the "Kirmes" (for Americans, its basically Carneval Travelling People bringing all their Games and Stuff to Towns for a Week or so and mostly rip People off, each Summer to the "Luftgewehr Stand" and fire "Luftgewehre" to win Prizes.
Though back in my Day in the 1990s when i was a Kid it was obvious the "Luftgewehr Stand" was always a Scam because even if you hit right on Target it would only fall over if you were extremely lucky. I spent way too much Money at the "Kirmes"
Prost & Cheers from Berchtesgaden in the Bavarian Alps
@@Nickname-hier-einfuegen I stand corrected. Hut ab
The MG 08/15 spawned the German adage for "something mondane" or "something ubiquitous" or repetitive, calling a thing or activity "that's so 08/15"
Which is connected to the 50's-60's movie series 08/15, the first popular movie series in Germany about WW2.
@@marcusott2973 interesting . Wasn’t aware of the series
Damn, was about to write that 😅
Something utterly mundane and average that does its job adequately, no more no less.
The MG 08/15 contained a part (a taper splint) which was the first standardized product in Germany. The DIN(Deutsche Industrie Norm) 1-part is the beginning for standardisation in the german industrie and the 08/15 became synonym for mass produced goods which then spread over to everthing else you can call the opposit of "unique".
In college during 1980s, I had a classmate who was really into guns. Little did I know what that meant until one day I visited his off-campus apartment and in the middle of the living room was a Bofors 40mm AA gun. How he ever got it into his apartment is a mystery to this day. And how he moved it out after graduation is just as mysterious.
You can tell the designer wasn't in the Air Force because he thought a fighter pilot might actually have enough awareness of the existence of his ground crew to bother activating a safety for them. "Ground crew? You mean those objects that hold my helmet bag for me?"
Well given that the mechanics probably put the ammo in, they could flip the safety on then. The pilot would then have to disable it once they're in the air
Nonner.
Dumb they maintained the plane
My maternal Great Grandfather was a WWI Airplane Gunner using exactly this Gun in a "Halberstadt D"Airplane mostly. I got a whole Photo Album of his with mostly Ground Photos but also some Air Photos (in bad quality) of him manning it.
Sadly he already died in 1982 (Born 1894) compared to my paternal Great Grandfather who i was lucky enough to meet and talk to because he lived until 1994 (Born 1889) who was a Soldier and fought in Verdun where he got gassed (luckily) so he survived WWI or else i wouldnt be writing this Comment as my paternal Grandfather was born in 1918.
Either way, its great to see Ian cover all of these Types of Guns, it makes me wish i could have met my maternal Great Grandfather and ask him about those Guns and how he used them, but it definitely makes me proud of knowing he was a Gunner on it and managed to survive WWI.
Prost & Cheers from Berchtesgaden in the Bavarian Alps
You grandfather's gun would have been an MG14 Parabellum. Which this lMG08/15 has been modified to resemble.
The MG14 was also a Maxim gun derivative. It can be recognised from the lMG08/15 by its received which is slimmer and doesn’t have sections cut away to lighten it.
Fun Fact: even today when fighter pilots agree, in training, to use only cannons, the sign is to put their hands on the instrument panel and simulate the locking of a machine gun like that. Greetings from Patagonia Argentina.
Uncle Adolf's retirement stomping grounds
Interesting!
"perforate your mechanic." Hmm, I believe the proper term is air cool your mechanic.
AR-15: Look at me, I got an M-lok rail 👶
LMG 08/15: Arent you cute 😒
"Ladies and Gentlemen... This is Spandau number five"
Underrated comment
The Germans did not piss about with ‘interrupter’ gears very long, these do not even seem to have reached the prototype stage. Even the first 'Fokker gear' fired the gun, it did not interrupt the firing. In the Fokker E a ‘collar’ around the prop shaft that had a ‘bump’ on it that fired the gun once every time a system of push-rods connected to the Max’s trigger went over this ‘bump’. When the pilot engaged the push rod system and then pressed the trigger all he did was connect the push-rod system to the Maxim’s trigger. So it was the engine that was literally firing a semi automatic Maxim gun one round at a time and the rate of firing impulses depended on the propeller’s rate of rotation. Most of the firing impulses caught the gun cycling because the engine rotated far faster than the gun could fire and were wasted but once in a while a firing pulse would catch the gun in the ready to fire state causing it to fire a single shot
Missed the tube under the feed mechanism. That was where the empty brass was ejected out of the gun. On planes it would connect to another tube to route the brass out of the plane while the empty belts would be collected in boxes similar to and next to the full ammunition boxes the guns would feed from.
I'm amazed you know that level of detail re: a gun over a century old!
@@tommyt8998 WWI airplane nerd here.
Aight, now im waiting for Ian to take it to the range. Pretty please!
Check out "Project Lightning" collab between Ian and C&Rsenal.
Ian has a video of shooting it.
About the Synchronizer-Interrupter gear stuff - In pretty much all cases - particularly in the World War One case, the engine Revolutions per Minute (ERPM) exceeds the Gun Rate of Fire (GRPM) by a more than 2:1 ratio (Typically about 1500 ERPM vs 600 or so GRPM). So, basically, you were getting one Machine Gun round off every 2 engine RPMs.
Synchronization - which triggers the gun via a cam timed to a "Master Propeller Blade", At the same point in every engine RPM, the gun would fire - and a trigger disconnecter that would engage after the bolt cycled, until the next trigger event - basically Semiautomatic.
Having years of experience with aviation weapons systems, I wholeheartedly agree a ‘perforated mechanic’ is not a good thing!
Ahhh 🤩 old WW1 movies where they rack the handle before rolling on the wing and diving at the enemy planes ...
That machine gun has a special place in my soul
Were you escorting zeppelins back in the day?
@@flip849 May be he likes things to be bog standard/nothing special which is what 08/15 means in German since introduction of this.
In Oregon, there was am older NFA collector with a Vickers and an MG08/15. He was wanting to trade either one of them for my SWD M/11 Lage. They came with a ton of accessories and ammo. He was in his 80's and he told me that while it was a joy to shoot, he regrets not having something simple like a sub machine gun. His son was there amd he said it took sometimes half an hour to tinker with them before they shot reliably. They sure look fun but that just seems like a lot of work. I used to remember him at the Albany Oregon Machine Gun festival where their was a line up of all sorts of belt feds. Where on my table, I just had my m/11, G3 with a sear and my AR15 RR. This was a time at the festival where they allowed civilian owners a small table on the far left side of the firing line to share their MGs for the public.
Great video btw but an extremely heavy belt fed isn't my cup of tea while fascinating and interesting as it is.
That answers my question about a disintegrating belt.
Fricking early gang reporting for duty
Yes sir! Reporting for duty, now that comments are turned back on!
Aye aye
Tutta bene? Mon ami~ 🤚
Straight to the trenches, soldier
@@amirferdhany3177 je vais bien
High Tech of the time, parachutes were not issued to pilots, so this was quite a beast to handle in the planes of the era. Reminds me of the television show, "The Wild Wild West" . A cross between Art Nuvo, and Victorian influences. Beautifully done.
TY Ian. I thought THIS gun was the best interation of the MAXIM principle ever built. I was told it was the lightest and smallest overall of them.
Perforating your mechanic. A World War 1 classic.
Thanks for the detailed video. Maxim gun variants are one of my favorite gun subjects!
People often underestimate the speed of propellers when talking about interrupter gears.
The propeller of a WW1 era plane rotates at around 1200RPM (I'm gonna be using RPM for both Revolutions per Minute and Rounds per Minute) or more. When we get to WW2 the propeller speed is double that.
An MG08/15 has a rate of fire of about 500RPM give or take on a good day. In other words, the propeller is a lot faster than the rate of fire of the gun.
Most interrupters had a single cam notch that would trigger the gun just after just one of the blades had passed the gun. So the gun would only fire on one side of the propeller whenever it was done cycling. It is unnecessary to trigger it after each blade passed, because the propeller RPM is so much higher than the gun RPM anyway.
Early interrupter mechanisms were even geared down to only trigger the gun every 3rd revolution to insure that the gun was done cycling before triggering it.
The idea that the gun will fire multiple shots through each propeller passing is incorrect, the propeller is more than fast enough that just triggering the gun once per revolution is sufficient.
So if using existing MGs would not have been easier one could have probably used a belt feed semi auto gun that is directly actuated by the engine.
@@thebaumfaeller1477 You would probably want to use something that has some sort of autosear or similar mechanism to prevent the interrupter cam from activating the trigger while the bolt is closing, causing the hammer to ride the bolt forward (assuming we were to use a hammer fired semi-auto firearm in place of a maxim).
Scott from Kentucky Ballistics can dual wield these
You've taught me more than ya know, thanks for your work!
Cool episode Ian! I have never seen an early WWI German aircraft machine gun even though I found the WWI aircraft fascinating as a teenager in junior/senior high school. Thanks Ian! 😀
Interestingly, before the interrupter and synchroniser mechanisms were developed, one of the earliest methods trialed to fire a machine gun through the propeller was to use deflector plates - basically metal wedges attached to the propeller blades and shaped to deflect the bullets that would otherwise have hit the blades away to the sides. Although they were shaped carefully to not deflect the bullets back towards the pilot I'm not sure that system would have inspired great confidence!
Further fun trivia, the inventor was one Roland Garros, a French pilot who is probably most well known nowadays as the namesake of the French Open tennis tournament.
Thank you, Sir! May I suggest that the additional "L" stands for "Luft," i.e. for aerial use, rather than, "luftgekühlt," air-cooled. Differences beyond the cooling jacket may be attributable to that, as well - but I'm a dilletante in firearms, just good in language(s). Thanks again!
Very cool gun, Ian.
That's a mighty big LMG you got there, boy!
I'm gonna look up live fire maxim gun now. Thanks for the video!
Actually, there was a way to use open-bolt MGs with a synchronizer. Roland Garros (for which the famous French sports arena is named after) placed armor on the section of the propeller blade to deflect bullets that might strike the blade due to the inconsistency of open-bolt MGs. Roland Garros was a French WW1 aviator and he calculated that only a small percentage of rounds fired would hit the blade while most would passthrough. He fitted the setup on his Morane-Saulnier G monoplane and on (of all days) 1st of April 1915, he was the first fighter pilot to shoot down an enemy aircraft by firing through the propeller. He went on to shoot down 3 aircrafts in total before a mechanic failure of his aircraft caused him to crash land behind German lines and he was captured with his aircraft intact; although he had tried to destroy his aircraft by setting fire to his fuel tank, it was apparently a wet or rainy day so the Germans were able to study his setup to shoot through the propeller. The punchline is that the Germans concluded that the armor on the prop blade would eventually fail from repeated strikes from bullets, and they went on to perfect their own synchronizer.
1:47 lMG, in my opinion, stands for luftMaschinenGewehr, which is exactly what it is.
Note the smaller case "l" (el) here, as in the original designation.
A Maschinengewehr built for the Luftstreitkrafte. Air Combat Forces.
So a Luftgewehr ( airgun) is for use of airforce ? :-))
A "Luftmaschinengewehr" would be a MG that either shoots air or uses air pressure. Also, the lMG (luftgekühltes MG) is not the same gun as the LMG (leichtes MG 08/15) shown on the video. Only the LMG has the cutouts.
@@Nickname-hier-einfuegen Can you give a link or any information about this "leichtes MG 08/15"? I never heard about something like that.
Know only standard MG 08/15; this aircraft version; MG 08/18 which is later air-cooled version but for infantry; MG 13 which was water-cooled version of Parabellum MG 14 and that was kinda a lighter MG 08/15.
Ian have wonderful vocal sound effects !!
Great video😊
Always loved the MG08/15, and this aircraft version looks really cool.
Despite being called an LMG… it’s actually technically called an MMG because of being substantially heavier than the true LMGs, but still lighter than a regular heavy Maxim gun.
the L stands for "air-cooled" in German
Very cool!
I remember seing a drawing from myasaki ( for the movie porco rosso ) where on a side cut view of a red seaplane you can see it's armed with mg 08/15 and it's written that the main character only trust german mg.
Awesome stuff Ian! Love all the weird Maxim variants. Reminds me of the episodes you did with the German Zeppelin MG!
Will you be putting an m-lok foregrip on the water jacket and taking this a match?
"Steampunky" mechanism. Well said!
Ah yes the steampunk brother of the maxim
No, the Maxim that produces steam to cool itself is the steampunk version of the Maxim :P
@@tbthegr81 oh i see XD
Seen Maxim's prototype gun?
Such a beautiful weapon with a slap you in the face piece of incorrect hardware. The top cover forward hinge has a regular bolt and nut. All Maxims had a pin here with a spring-loaded tang or a small over center toggle. Still a gorgeous weapon. Thanks for showing it Ian!
In 1918, DIN 1 was published:
The military's standardization requirements led, among other things, to the founding of the Standards Committee of German Industry (Normenausschuss der Deutschen Industrie) in Berlin-Spandau(!) in December 1917.
Three months later, the institute published DIN 1. This specified the dimensions of tapered pins, which were used in the MG 08/15.
(In October 1992 DIN 1 was replaced by the European standard DIN EN 22339.)
This lays the foundation for the usage of the term 08/15 (nullacht-fuffzen(!)) for something standardized or even boring.
Surprised this hadn't been covered already! Very interesting gun. The world of firearms is just an endless pit once you get into it.
“It could be very easy to accidentally perforate your mechanic” 😂
The light machine gun 08/15 was the water-cooled version, so lMG 08/15 likely means luftgekühltes Maschinengewehr 08/15, or air cooled machine gun.
"A sentry kit is available near your location"
early to a forgotten weapons video!!
There is also the deflector method of swatting bullets away from the prop 😂
You should've linked the video from a couple of years ago where you actually shot one and showed the loading mechanism😉
the steampunky thing translates to Crank-Bearing-Block (Kurbellagerbock) or Sawhandle (Segenhebel)
Another wonderful public service message brought to us by the Steiner Development Fund
Thank you for your work. I've learned a lot about firearms from your channel which helped me during the Ukrainian war.
Some rich guy should mount a couple of these in a mock up of a DR.I's nose section with a cockpit and an engine. You could tow it to the range and set it up. Fire up the motor and go shoo'in'!
Like, say, Peter Jackson? :) www.thevintageaviator.co.nz
Great, now someone will buy that very cool WWI machinegun, and drive up the price on 8mm Mauser ammo even more. 8mm Mauser ammo is expensive enough already for us bolt-action guys and gals. Seriously, though, very cool that an aircraft version survives, even if it has been altered somewhat.
The LMG 08/15 is one of those rare and obscure guns that don't tend to be as loved as the other types of firearms but i'm glad there are people who appreciate them regardless and you're right when you said some parts made it look very steampunky.
You can probably run around firing this from the hip in Battlefield 1
Interesting gun
I guess one reason why an aircraft machine gun doesn't need water cooling is that in aerial combat the gun is only fired in short bursts--only one belt for the whole mission.
I love that air-cooled jacket. It looks bad-ass.
Spandau Ballet boss music gets louder.😮
Nice machine gun.
Red Baron: OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOh Herr Snooooopy!!!
Snoopy: Awh, Fuck!
I’ll buy it!!
This is basically what Manfred von Richthofen and the other german WW1 aces used to score their kills
I think "syncopated" would be a better description than "staccato" for the firing of a machine gun with an interrupter.
It is still a part of German everyday language to say something is 0815, meaning it's nothing special or just vanilla. So it seems the gun left a lasting impression of just being average.
Man and machine and nothing there in between
The flying circus and a man from Prussia
The sky and a plane, this man commands his domain
The western front and all the way to Russia
Death from above, you're under fire
Stained red as blood, he's roaming higher
Born a soldier from the horseback to the skies
That's where the legend will arise
And he's flying
Higher, the king of the sky
He's flying too fast and he's flying too high
Higher, an eye for an eye
The legend will never die
There MUST be some ammo counter around somewhere and I HAVE to see it in action
Wishful thinking, but can't we have a museum open up, and let us cycle an airborne 08/15 with 10-20 inert rounds? Some museum surely has to have one.
That's the kind if detail I'm really curious about, probably because I've been an aviation nut all my life : D
Beautyfull gun
I love the mlok handguard lol
I can here archangel in my head looking at this... Iykyk
With no waterjacket or massive volume of air to keep it cool, how many rounds can you put through this thing before you have to stop and let it cool down?
After the turn of the century, in the clear blue skies over Germany, came a roar and a thunder, that sounded suspiciously like this exact gun.
"Perforate your mechanic" that's a good one. 😂😂 That would definitely be very bad
🎶Maxims in the skyyyyy with diaaaamonds...🎶
7:45 slight mistake, when operating the "imporant part", you call both positions forward.
IIRC, The British Imperial War Museum had the recovery guns from Manfred Von Richthofen's DRI Triplane he was killed in.
It is rumored that the tapered pin installed in the MG 08/15 is the first item to become part of a German standard. It bears the standard number DIN 1.
"L" may stand for "Luftgekühltes" Maschinengewehr (Air colled Machine Gun) the lMG 08/15 or leMG are still water cooled, as writen here alreday the "leichtes" would be abreviated wit a small "l" or an "le"
Now imagine being a german pilot that just put a couple of holes in a mechanic. Writing all the Verlustmeldungen (in triplicate and handwritten, no cabon paper) would really put a dent in your number of sorties
Used on German ww1 aircraft ! Very cool !
IMG is the German for Light Machine gun the I being a i…if that helps Beautiful engineering.
Great video.
"Etwas ist 08/15" [Something is 08/15, ~ run of the mill] is still a saying in Germany today. The most people don't know where it comes from...
Bow did he keep it cool with the perforated water jacket and no prop wash to cool it?
I remember Sopwith Camel 3d for Windows and Dos had a weird sound for the guns. I always assumed it was a weirdly repeated sound file. I'm now wondering if they were trying to replicate the interrupter/synchronizer.
The original "Sopwith" DOS game is available as an in-browser game.
This was just covered on Slashdot today, under the title "Veteran PC Game 'Sopwith' Celebrates 40th Anniversary"
3:22 An airscrew does 2500 to 3000 rpm. It has at least 2 blades. Hence it obscures the bore some 5000 to 6000 times per minute. No WWI machine gun could shoot 10000 rounds per minute as is assumed by "two or four times per revolution".
You should definitely do a video on Cod and codm guns
That's mechanical ingenuity!
i.e. in theory, the synchronator can even accelerates the rate of fire if all available rpm are squeezed out of the engine in the heat of air combat.
Air combat in the First World War has apparently had an unparalleled atmosphere.
L might mean 'luft'...for the air force
Go watch project lightening for goodness sake! Ian and the C&Rsenal crew shoot almost all the WW1 LMG’s.
Do they also paint them white or bleach them with hair dye?
A sentry kit is available near your location.
Havent finished the video yet so maybe you mention it but before i forget- "Null Acht Fünfzehn" is a phrase in use in germany to this day, meaning roughly "Standard," or "nothing extraordinary-" maybe with some association to "Generic"! :D
l stands for "Luft" or "Luftfahrzeug" or something similar with air in it, I'm sure
It may mean, "Luft" for flight in German?
3:28 What is that graduated scale for, on the left side, on that long cover?🤔
Zeppelin configuration, that's a throwback from a long time ago