I enjoyed the problem you folks have with so many top options over there. Our biggest problem seems to be if to buy a Festool MFT/3 (20mm holes), a different top with 3/4" holes (19mm) like the Kregg or DeWalt, or make your own. Except for the 5mm router hole in my MFT (a loose bit), I'm good, as I keep a set of dogs for both. The 20mm for the shop, and drill press, 19mm for my travel kit. Thanks Peter.
Good, thorough video (as per usual). The Metabo, with the T slot (which is a key feature of an MFT) is now a great option, and the UJK reamer being 25% cheaper than the BenchDogs one makes sense too.
Thank Peter, I really appreciate the time and effort you put into making these accessible to us all ! I'm still tempted to make something myself though, I have been using some very sturdy folding trestles I made, and an old blackboard wardrobe door and tbh that has been fine for most of my needs !
Horses for courses Andy; I loved making my own portable benches to my specification, some folks prefer to buy something and spend their time making what they want to make ie not benches! 😂👍
Great video, and I am glad I stumbled onto them. I looked for the Excel workbench in the USA, but as far as I can tell it is not available here yet. I'll have to check it out in the future. For my own uses, purchasing a precision drilled MFT top and reaming out would save a lot of time and money. That said, having a place to get after-market replacement tops (in case the company ever goes out of business) is a godsend. Double so with a CAD/CAM drawing. I*'ll have to think about how to incorporate this into my garage rebuild.
I think the Metoba becomes a realistic proposition even with the added expense. My workshop based MFT (UKJ) is just too far away from our new bungalow for most of what I now do. This is also an ideal size for me to handle (over 70). I have a lot of Bench Dog based attachments which can get incorporate into the Metabo. Well done Peter for following this up as much as I like the BD and Festool MFT I cannot justify the cost. 👍🏻 Regards Mike
Thanks Mike! Yes, even with the added expense of a replacement top I think it's still a great value, good size bench that's not too hard to move around. Of course, Metabo could have been making that extra money themselves if they'd stuck with a standard top and had better QC... 🤷♂️ 👍
Works for me! And you can always wait until the OEM tops are totally buggered before making new tops. CNC tops are much harder to find in the USA, you need a local CNC shop with excess capacity. Or make your own tops with something like the PARF guide. Great ideas as always. The cheapest 96/20 top around my parts might be the top made for the Centipede, no reason it can't be adapted to another table.
A timely video. After several efforts to make my own MFT which failed because of inadequate precision in the hole spacing, I got a “cheap and cheerful” no-name folding top off Amazon this week. It has 20 mm holes and my existing dogs are 3/4”, so I decided to make my own dogs from brass stock in my home machine shop. I made an initial dog sized for a tight fit on one of the two pieces but found it wouldn’t fit in the other piece where the holes were smaller. I saved CAD$50, but now I’ll have to incur the expense of making two sets of dogs, one for each table half. Every time I cheap out on tools, I live to regret it.
Update: Before I spent my time on the preposterous proposition of making two different sets of bench dogs, I had a good think about what I wanted to use my MFT for and it turned out to be two (obvious things): (1) holding work for various operations and (2) using my Makita track saw to make precise right-angle cuts on pieces too large for my miter saw. On reflection, workpiece holding does not require precision in the location of the holes. If the workpiece is off by a could of degrees when clamping, planing, etc. it doesn't matter. Where precision does matter is getting 90 degree track saw cuts. In the end I used 4 of the somewhat imprecise holes on my homemade MFT: two to locate the edge of the workpiece and two at approximately 90 degrees to locate my tracksaw track. For one of the tracksaw-locating dogs I used a standard benchdog. For the other end, I used my lathe to make a custom, slightly eccentric bench dog where the top part of the dog was 1 mm off centre from the bottom. Now with my builders square I can adjust the eccentric dog to get precise right angles with ease.
Do you notice after reaming the tight holes, whether the relationships of the holes were maintained (particularly to their orthogonality or linearity)j? I guess I was thinking that the precise hole placement was a significant part of the promise of the accuracy of the track saw/mtf system. I suppose going from cnc accuracy to hand drill with a reamer accuracy doesn't feel like a good start for the foundation of every square cut that I'm planning to make. My guess is that it would be hard to measure the impact, but the idea of it really bothers me.
On the top that I reamed out, it was as accurate after the reaming as it was before. But your concerns are precisely why I’m pleased to see third party drop-in CNCd replacement tops at decent prices, and also made from a far higher grade of MDF than the OEM tops.👍
Great idea on those simple spacers to raise the worktop on the Excel. That flushness and the resulting impracticality for cutting was the first thing I noticed when you did your original review of it.
I don’t get why I would buy such a table and then replace the top. Making the holes wider using a tool seems more logical. But it’s a Ted thin as a basis for a video. I hope I’m just off on this one and that this is not the start of this channel slowly transforming into a shopping channel.
It looks like me buying the £60 Excel table and raising the top with your clever trick as it will likely to get bounced about a fair bit in the back of my truck and I could live with the plastic dogs for the number of times that I thnk that it will get used. If it turns out that I use it more than expected, I can always donate it to my daughter's other half and buy myself a better one.
Hi Peter! Thank you for this one, since I'm considering to get myself such a workbench. Altough I do not see the immanent need to replace the bench-top if it where just for the too tight dog-holes. I think the reamer would solve this problem and would be a nice tool to have also for other projects that include bench-dog holes. Coming from metal works, I am used to get exact holes not by drilling but drilling undersize and then ream to the measure. Could you please include a link to the reamer you used in the video? My personal take home value is the Excel Workbench. At first glance it was terribly dissappointing, because it makes no sense to order it in the UK. The shipping to Germany is too expensive. Fortunately I spotted the very same bench over here in the Amazonas Delta from the manufacturer Vevor, selling for 102€ which is pretty much the original price of the Excel. Now I wait for the black fridays. Perhaps I can grab one at a lower price. Anyhow - the Excel would work better for me than the Metabo because I have limited space in my shop and the 10cm in difference depth makes working more comfortable. I will definitely use your trick for lifting the bench-top surface above the Aluminum rails. Thank you for showing! Best regards Andreas
Thanks Andreas. We have the Vevor bench available here as well, just be aware that the legs are fixed height, not adjustable like they are on the Excel. I use bench dogs all the time so obviously my view is swayed by that; the reamer - link in the description btw, if you scroll to the bottom where the links are listed - did a great job, but I had a lot of people on instagram question the size and perpendicular-ness of the holes, and the resulting squareness of the grid, so honestly for the extra £25 that the replacement top costs, I would choose that. 👍
Hi Peter, If upgrade is better and it works well with your benchdogs go for it and a improvement to your Metabo and Excel MFT benches. At the end of the day you need to work with your tools and not fight with them to make you benchdogs to fit. As always a great video, have a good weekend take care
In the US, Amazon has a replacement MFT top for $143, Lee Valley is at $130.50 (shipping?) and Trunkworks has one on sale for $161,95 - normally $180.00!!!. I bought my own UHD 4x8 top for about $90 and made my own with material left over to do two more. For $50 I'd rather buy one than make one as they are a bit of a time sink. Maybe we don't a critical mass of MFT owners over here. If you do roll your own, you can place the holes as you like (I have the Parf system) so that is one upside.
Since the Karvd replacement tops are made with a CNC, it would be easy to offer a version with extra slots/holes and maybe even the little trays for a few extra quid - I think £50 for the Excel replacement would still be an acceptable price for those who want those extra features added with the same precision.
I can’t be the only one who noticed that the new Metabo top was put on upside down. I’d expected a flurry of comments about the extra holes which look like they are for the handle, but are on the top as it’s upside down. That’s just the sort of thing I’d do - and then be miffed after turning it over as there would then be screw holes in my new top. Anyway, thanks for the video - good to see some other options on the market.
Better too snug? Seriously? How about better the right size? Let's just make it: the hopes are the wrong size. I'm lucky enough to own a Parf guide which I acquired in 2020 and the forstner biy has been boring correctly sized hopes ever since. There must be a spec. on the hole size somewhere because the ability for a round dog to fit a round dog hole is what makes it a system. Thank you for taking the time to devise ways to sort these issues out, and demonstrate them to the masses, but really, if manufacturers are good Ng to drill 50 (or however many) holes, I personally would expect them to use the right sized bit. I might even go so far as to say that if anything slightly on the larger side of the tolerance is better as the top end dogs expand and one can probably pick 3 of them up for similar price to these remedial measures. Call me ranty, but...
Absolutely! Even more so as some people report receiving the tables with the correct size holes with no adjustments necessary… Smells like rubbish quality control to me!
Ranty !! ....... At the price it' easily survivable and Peter has generously shown an alternative upgrade or future replacement making this one of two obvious choices for beginner's to this pastime thanks to Peters clear follow up on these two products.. As someone looking to build out a retirement workshop as a hobbiest more videos like this please Peter.
@@onawaitlist5038 now then, I thanked Peter; I was critical if the manufacturers only for drilling their holes the wrong size... inexplicably. Good luck with your project.
The only question I have is whether, after reaming the holes, there's any change in accuracy of the squareness of your dog hole array. I don't imagine there would be, considering you're taking very little out.
Peter, I’ve reamed my Festool MFT with the Parf reamer. It became too sloppy. Running it in reverse yields a better tighter result for most bench dogs. (Festool and Parf dogs in my instance) I like the fact that Metabo table is a bit snug - the other option is a terrible one.. Where you live, and where your table is stored in consideration to humidity is also a factor to take into account.
There’s ’a bit snug’ and there’s ’I have to hammer them in and remove them with a set of grips’ snug. Both benches were the latter, and the issues around using reamers is why I’m pleased to see third-party drop-in replacements, made from quality MRMDF which won’t be affected by environmental conditions, certainly not to the extent that the OEM tops are. 👍
If you’re tight on space and budget then the Excel with a replacement top is a good option, but the Metabo is a better bench, just by virtue of having the t-slot in the extrusion. It is bigger though, costs twice as much, and may still need to top reaming out or replacing. 🤷♂️👍
Thank you! I am certainly tight on space. I’ve just flagged an area in the garden that my wife thinks is for sitting on 😅. Also the only budget is convincing my wife I need one
So what is the ´correct’ size hole? I’m soon to have a timber supplier with a cnc make me a couple MFT tops in a full 8x4 sheet so I can have two large MFTs . Is it 20mm hole i ask for or 19.something ? Thanks
If you're having one CNCd to your specifications, then I'd measure the bench dogs you want to use with it and have it made to fit them. For most that will be 20mm, but why make it generic when you can have it tailored to your bench dogs. Better still, give the CNC company one of the dogs and tell them that you want the holes to fit it snugly. 👍
is there a white van full of tools parked out in the street to your right with the rear doors still open? i'm still a little anxious from that previous video. 😂
That mod makes one of those benches a more attractive proposition, I use manual planes a lot, how diagonally ridgid are each of them ? I was very disapointed with the Bosh "workmate" equivalent as it had very little rigidity and was hopeless for use when planing.
Reason my hand planes and chisels rarely get used: in 2015, I had no space for my 1976 B&D Workmate, gave it away. Now regretting that sad loss. Even after 40 years, it was rock solid for hand tool work
Hey Jon! Without direct experience with those two benches, having seen a couple of foldable ones, I would say, that they will dissappoint you when working with a hand-plane. The only one that I found rigid enough for this purpose is a not very expensive Einhell bench (BT-WB 150). They sell for around 80-90€ here in Germany. I bought mine at a clearance sale at ALDI fpr 49. The legs of this bench are at an angle when foldet aout. They have rubber ends, which gives the bench a good stance in the direction of the force. The legs are sturdy enough, because you can use the bench also a step. Not sure if you get Einhell in the UK but if yes, perhaps you give that one a try. The two-sided top can be flipped over, so it was easy to build a second one from 22mm MDF with bench-dog holes. Cheers Andreas
@@cuebj That was what I would call a bad idea... On one of the woodworking channels here in Germany, those old Workmates were a topic in the comments. Unbeatable. Perhaps the recommendation I gave Jon is an alternative for you? Not as small as a Workmate but it has coasters under the frame so you can use it as a cart. I use them, to stow it away underneath my fixed workbench in my shop. Cheers Andreas
I dont think I'd recommend any portable bench for hand planing tbh, though the diagonal leg bracing certainly helps with these, and the Metabo being bigger with more mass helps as well. Have to admit, it's not something I considered so I'll try it out and see how it goes. 👍
I haven’t asked Derek at Karvd CNC to make one, but I imagine he’d be able to if you gave him the dimensions. I found a turn of thin masking tape around the bench dogs worked perfectly for the wolfcraft. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Ok, Now I know your Ikea hack is still the most viable non Festool mft solution. Saved me some money on that. Thank you. And 3x3 Tamar recently did hers mft top that I found to have some fancy ideas.
Time vs money. The smaller Excel bench had dog holes at 76mm centres, so the replacement top makes it the standard 96mm spacing. I don’t personally like the tops with slots in them - that’s not how I use the bench - and as I say in the video I found the little ‘small parts’ recesses in the Metabo top just irritating as they took away a dog hole. A reamer is £25 plus some time, vs £45 for the smaller drop-in top; you pays your money and makes your choice. 🤷♂️👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop I use a PVC 20mm ISO pipe (brand: Kopp Heinrich but I am sure any brand will do) that I cut to 10cm length because it is cheap, fits the purpose and why not. I bought the two benches just two weeks ago. So after you asked I went to see if the bench dogs from a Bosch PWB 600 would fit and they are as difficult to put in as you show in your video supporting your experience. BTW they are also rather difficult to fit into the Bosch workbench they belong to as well. In any case I would not go so far as to buy a new top to be honest. The pipe costs € 1.79 for 2m ;-) So accidentally that is my solution. But I do understand the pain if you invested in high quality bench dogs. Perhaps a bit of sanding (of the holes, not the bench dogs) could do the trick as well?
@@sebastiansimon9737 ich habe auch 2 MWB hier, beim einen passten die Benchdogs (UJK, Benchdogs UK, Dictum) perfekt, beim anderen brauchte es sanfte Gewalt sie in die Löcher zu bekommen und ne Wasserpumpenzange um sie rauszuholen 😂
No, they’re meant to be 20mm holes on 96mm centres - they publish the specs - but many of the early batches have come up very tight, more like 19.5mm 🤷♂️👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop concur - I have three tables (all Festool) often wondered if location around the world (humidity) would ever effect that critical .5 mm? Thanks Mr. Mr. Millard. //ji
If reaming the holes, can the reamer move off centre to the hole? Could this affect alignment of holes? How to keep the reamer dead still in relation to the centre of the hole and in line with the rest of the row?
At least in metal works, the reamer has a small cone at the front so it self centers. It shaves off such a small amount of material with several blades around the circumference, that it should not lead to misalignment. Cheers Andreas
@@andreasbentz6106 Wow! Thanks to both near instant replies from you and 10MW himself. Metabo top and UJK reamer looks fine for my degree of accuracy making anything up to 100 bee hives for/with my son in North Wales. I can use it myself in SE London or pop it in car and drive to him. Just need a cheap cordless tracksaw and track - the Evolution looks good apart from my ten years old very negative experience of their quality control
Entertaining and pleasant as your videos are the stuff on this one makes no sense other than, for some and eventually, gaining extra knowledge about these two benches. The reckoning? Anyone thinking about buying a proper MFT bench / MFT bench clone: buy the right stuff from the outset: buy well buy once and if you look around it will cost less than the Metabo's... Nothing wrong with these two benches though if you can leave them as they are or alternatively with just tiny inexpensive mods.
Whilst I don't disagree, not everybody has the means to 'buy well, buy once' and plain fact is that the needs of many people will be met by these benches, rather than a Festool MFT/3 or the Benchdogs Ultra MFT / Basic. It's those folks who I made this video for, and the people who have already bought the Metabo bench, found it lacking in the dog-hole department but are unsure what the best way is to resolve the situtation. And now they know. 👍
And what are no names and details of your suggested bench' coming in at under the cost of these two? Interesting to have access to a "Real MFT" options as you suggest: "The reckoning? Anyone thinking about buying a proper MFT bench / MFT bench clone: buy the right stuff from the outset: buy well buy once and if you look around it will cost less than the Metabo's..."
It's a little strange because upgrading the Excel for £55 + the little risers, so let's call it £65, is reasonable, especially when the Excel bench itself is £60, still comes in quite economical. Whereas for the Metabo, that definitely becomes a very expensive set of legs to upgrade.
Sorry, but "upgrading".....surely this making these tops "Fit for purpose". Disappointing attitude for Metabo, if these holes need Reaming, they should Ream them at the factory.
In the USA the standard is 3/4-inch holes on 4-inch centers and in other parts it's closer to 19.75mm on 96, it's only in the UK that the MFT became a full 20mm on 96mm, it's unusual. My Bora top "likes" 20mm dogs just fine and so does my old Workmate! (believe it or not).
The DiY version, Peter showed in an earlier video, should work. On the excel you need to mount a T-Track but as we know, IKEA has a solution (watch that older video). Cheers Andreas
There'll be a follow-on where I talk about rails hinges for these benches. You can get the benchdogs hinge to fit on the new Metabo top, yes, and the Dashboard hinge and my DIY hinge have always fitted on the Metabo bench because of the t-tracks. The Excel bench I'll have to try with the Benchdogs hinge - keep you posted.
I don't get why the manufacturers deliberately make the dog holes too small, given that they control production. "Its better to make the holes too small than too large?" Why not just make the holes the standard size? Why optimize for a lesser fraction of the accessory market?
Peter, do you think Metabo would be will to sell their workbench without its worktop with a discount? Might be one way of addressing the challenge to customers?
It makes no sense to buy the product if it's defective. Why would I buy it just to replace the top. This would prevent me from investing in getting either one of those because I still have to fix their error versus them fixing it. I know these are made by CNC so they can correct it and should give a 55 discount from their price if I have to invest to fix their issue
Thanks! Not sure I understand - the Metabo top was changed because it was the best option (I felt) to change it. I don't think I'd want to make a DIY MFT based around that top, personally. 🤔 🤷♂️
@@kevinronald4137 Ah, OK. TBH I'm not sure of the appeal, unless it's the smaller size? If you're making one from scratch why not use - with all respect to Derek at Karvd CNC - a cheaper off the shelf full-sized MFT replacement top? I've done a couple of those already, they're in the MFT playlist. 👍
Me personally? The Festool MFT was too small for me in the workshop, but as an ‘out and about’ bench they’re pretty great, and two of them makes for a very versatile setup. 👍
I'd be inclined to agree, but not everyone wants what we want, and if something off-the-shelt - or something different - suits them better then good for them. 👍
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I have no issue spending 10min reaming the holes out.
That said replacement tops will be useful and a few years.
Always great to see you people giving people options with products that did not quite meet the requirements of what they are being sold for.
I enjoyed the problem you folks have with so many top options over there. Our biggest problem seems to be if to buy a Festool MFT/3 (20mm holes), a different top with 3/4" holes (19mm) like the Kregg or DeWalt, or make your own. Except for the 5mm router hole in my MFT (a loose bit), I'm good, as I keep a set of dogs for both. The 20mm for the shop, and drill press, 19mm for my travel kit. Thanks Peter.
Thanks! 👍
Good, thorough video (as per usual). The Metabo, with the T slot (which is a key feature of an MFT) is now a great option, and the UJK reamer being 25% cheaper than the BenchDogs one makes sense too.
Thanks! 👍
Eine Nachrüstung der T-Nut Schiene auf dem günstigen Excel würde mich interessieren.
Ist das einfach möglich?
Wenn nicht, ist der Metabo klar vorne!
😂 I love the “never used the grab handle” then…doh “could have used the grab handle”…Murphy strikes again!
I know, right? 🤷♂️😂
Thank Peter, I really appreciate the time and effort you put into making these accessible to us all !
I'm still tempted to make something myself though, I have been using some very sturdy folding trestles I made, and an old blackboard wardrobe door and tbh that has been fine for most of my needs !
Horses for courses Andy; I loved making my own portable benches to my specification, some folks prefer to buy something and spend their time making what they want to make ie not benches! 😂👍
Great video, and I am glad I stumbled onto them. I looked for the Excel workbench in the USA, but as far as I can tell it is not available here yet. I'll have to check it out in the future. For my own uses, purchasing a precision drilled MFT top and reaming out would save a lot of time and money. That said, having a place to get after-market replacement tops (in case the company ever goes out of business) is a godsend. Double so with a CAD/CAM drawing. I*'ll have to think about how to incorporate this into my garage rebuild.
I think the Metoba becomes a realistic proposition even with the added expense. My workshop based MFT (UKJ) is just too far away from our new bungalow for most of what I now do. This is also an ideal size for me to handle (over 70). I have a lot of Bench Dog based attachments which can get incorporate into the Metabo. Well done Peter for following this up as much as I like the BD and Festool MFT I cannot justify the cost. 👍🏻 Regards Mike
Thanks Mike! Yes, even with the added expense of a replacement top I think it's still a great value, good size bench that's not too hard to move around. Of course, Metabo could have been making that extra money themselves if they'd stuck with a standard top and had better QC... 🤷♂️ 👍
Works for me! And you can always wait until the OEM tops are totally buggered before making new tops. CNC tops are much harder to find in the USA, you need a local CNC shop with excess capacity. Or make your own tops with something like the PARF guide. Great ideas as always. The cheapest 96/20 top around my parts might be the top made for the Centipede, no reason it can't be adapted to another table.
A timely video. After several efforts to make my own MFT which failed because of inadequate precision in the hole spacing, I got a “cheap and cheerful” no-name folding top off Amazon this week. It has 20 mm holes and my existing dogs are 3/4”, so I decided to make my own dogs from brass stock in my home machine shop. I made an initial dog sized for a tight fit on one of the two pieces but found it wouldn’t fit in the other piece where the holes were smaller. I saved CAD$50, but now I’ll have to incur the expense of making two sets of dogs, one for each table half. Every time I cheap out on tools, I live to regret it.
Update: Before I spent my time on the preposterous proposition of making two different sets of bench dogs, I had a good think about what I wanted to use my MFT for and it turned out to be two (obvious things): (1) holding work for various operations and (2) using my Makita track saw to make precise right-angle cuts on pieces too large for my miter saw. On reflection, workpiece holding does not require precision in the location of the holes. If the workpiece is off by a could of degrees when clamping, planing, etc. it doesn't matter. Where precision does matter is getting 90 degree track saw cuts. In the end I used 4 of the somewhat imprecise holes on my homemade MFT: two to locate the edge of the workpiece and two at approximately 90 degrees to locate my tracksaw track. For one of the tracksaw-locating dogs I used a standard benchdog. For the other end, I used my lathe to make a custom, slightly eccentric bench dog where the top part of the dog was 1 mm off centre from the bottom. Now with my builders square I can adjust the eccentric dog to get precise right angles with ease.
I really wish we had some more of these in the US.
Do you notice after reaming the tight holes, whether the relationships of the holes were maintained (particularly to their orthogonality or linearity)j? I guess I was thinking that the precise hole placement was a significant part of the promise of the accuracy of the track saw/mtf system. I suppose going from cnc accuracy to hand drill with a reamer accuracy doesn't feel like a good start for the foundation of every square cut that I'm planning to make. My guess is that it would be hard to measure the impact, but the idea of it really bothers me.
On the top that I reamed out, it was as accurate after the reaming as it was before. But your concerns are precisely why I’m pleased to see third party drop-in CNCd replacement tops at decent prices, and also made from a far higher grade of MDF than the OEM tops.👍
Great idea on those simple spacers to raise the worktop on the Excel. That flushness and the resulting impracticality for cutting was the first thing I noticed when you did your original review of it.
Thanks! Yes, not sure what they were thinking really - other perhaps, than it was a bench for clamping on rather than cutting? 🤷♂️👍
I don’t get why I would buy such a table and then replace the top. Making the holes wider using a tool seems more logical. But it’s a Ted thin as a basis for a video. I hope I’m just off on this one and that this is not the start of this channel slowly transforming into a shopping channel.
@@staenker1983 replacing the top of little Minime makes sense, you got 96mm then, instead of 76mm
Always look forward to a new 10 min workshop vid. Another interesting one 👍🏻
Great upgrade, Peter! They're much more useful now! 😊
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Thanks, you too! 🙌👍
I prefer your homebuilt one, Peter!
Thanks! 👍
It looks like me buying the £60 Excel table and raising the top with your clever trick as it will likely to get bounced about a fair bit in the back of my truck and I could live with the plastic dogs for the number of times that I thnk that it will get used. If it turns out that I use it more than expected, I can always donate it to my daughter's other half and buy myself a better one.
Yep; honestly at £60 I'd have bought two and not bothered building my own for the workshop. 🤷♂👍
The more u use it, the more you'll learn to love it.
Thanks for heads up on the price drop just picked one up for £62😊😊
Bargain! 👍
Triggers broom springs to mind
Great adjustment!Now something for the legs....
Hi Peter! Thank you for this one, since I'm considering to get myself such a workbench. Altough I do not see the immanent need to replace the bench-top if it where just for the too tight dog-holes. I think the reamer would solve this problem and would be a nice tool to have also for other projects that include bench-dog holes. Coming from metal works, I am used to get exact holes not by drilling but drilling undersize and then ream to the measure. Could you please include a link to the reamer you used in the video?
My personal take home value is the Excel Workbench. At first glance it was terribly dissappointing, because it makes no sense to order it in the UK. The shipping to Germany is too expensive. Fortunately I spotted the very same bench over here in the Amazonas Delta from the manufacturer Vevor, selling for 102€ which is pretty much the original price of the Excel. Now I wait for the black fridays. Perhaps I can grab one at a lower price.
Anyhow - the Excel would work better for me than the Metabo because I have limited space in my shop and the 10cm in difference depth makes working more comfortable. I will definitely use your trick for lifting the bench-top surface above the Aluminum rails.
Thank you for showing!
Best regards
Andreas
Pretty sure it was the "UJK Combined Chamfer & Reamer Tool for 20mm Dog Holes". Just google it for prices where you live.
Thanks Andreas. We have the Vevor bench available here as well, just be aware that the legs are fixed height, not adjustable like they are on the Excel. I use bench dogs all the time so obviously my view is swayed by that; the reamer - link in the description btw, if you scroll to the bottom where the links are listed - did a great job, but I had a lot of people on instagram question the size and perpendicular-ness of the holes, and the resulting squareness of the grid, so honestly for the extra £25 that the replacement top costs, I would choose that. 👍
Hi Peter, If upgrade is better and it works well with your benchdogs go for it and a improvement to your Metabo and Excel MFT benches. At the end of the day you need to work with your tools and not fight with them to make you benchdogs to fit.
As always a great video, have a good weekend take care
Cheers Shaun, you too! 👍
In the US, Amazon has a replacement MFT top for $143, Lee Valley is at $130.50 (shipping?) and Trunkworks has one on sale for $161,95 - normally $180.00!!!. I bought my own UHD 4x8 top for about $90 and made my own with material left over to do two more. For $50 I'd rather buy one than make one as they are a bit of a time sink.
Maybe we don't a critical mass of MFT owners over here.
If you do roll your own, you can place the holes as you like (I have the Parf system) so that is one upside.
looking forward for the next video where youbuild a diy foldable leg base ;c)
Already did those when I made my portable benches. 👍
Since the Karvd replacement tops are made with a CNC, it would be easy to offer a version with extra slots/holes and maybe even the little trays for a few extra quid - I think £50 for the Excel replacement would still be an acceptable price for those who want those extra features added with the same precision.
I can’t be the only one who noticed that the new Metabo top was put on upside down. I’d expected a flurry of comments about the extra holes which look like they are for the handle, but are on the top as it’s upside down.
That’s just the sort of thing I’d do - and then be miffed after turning it over as there would then be screw holes in my new top.
Anyway, thanks for the video - good to see some other options on the market.
No, it isn’t - the bolts are countersunk in the top face of the OEM Metabo top as well. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop well, now I feel stupid!
Better too snug? Seriously? How about better the right size? Let's just make it: the hopes are the wrong size. I'm lucky enough to own a Parf guide which I acquired in 2020 and the forstner biy has been boring correctly sized hopes ever since. There must be a spec. on the hole size somewhere because the ability for a round dog to fit a round dog hole is what makes it a system. Thank you for taking the time to devise ways to sort these issues out, and demonstrate them to the masses, but really, if manufacturers are good Ng to drill 50 (or however many) holes, I personally would expect them to use the right sized bit. I might even go so far as to say that if anything slightly on the larger side of the tolerance is better as the top end dogs expand and one can probably pick 3 of them up for similar price to these remedial measures. Call me ranty, but...
Absolutely! Even more so as some people report receiving the tables with the correct size holes with no adjustments necessary… Smells like rubbish quality control to me!
Ranty !! ....... At the price it' easily survivable and Peter has generously shown an alternative upgrade or future replacement making this one of two obvious choices for beginner's to this pastime thanks to Peters clear follow up on these two products..
As someone looking to build out a retirement workshop as a hobbiest more videos like this please Peter.
@@onawaitlist5038 now then, I thanked Peter; I was critical if the manufacturers only for drilling their holes the wrong size... inexplicably. Good luck with your project.
The only question I have is whether, after reaming the holes, there's any change in accuracy of the squareness of your dog hole array. I don't imagine there would be, considering you're taking very little out.
I couldn’t measure any, but that’s why I was keen to have some custom tops made, so it’s nothing to worry about. 👍
Peter, I’ve reamed my Festool MFT with the Parf reamer. It became too sloppy. Running it in reverse yields a better tighter result for most bench dogs. (Festool and Parf dogs in my instance) I like the fact that Metabo table is a bit snug - the other option is a terrible one.. Where you live, and where your table is stored in consideration to humidity is also a factor to take into account.
There’s ’a bit snug’ and there’s ’I have to hammer them in and remove them with a set of grips’ snug. Both benches were the latter, and the issues around using reamers is why I’m pleased to see third-party drop-in replacements, made from quality MRMDF which won’t be affected by environmental conditions, certainly not to the extent that the OEM tops are. 👍
Thanks!
Thank you! 🙌👍👍
I am after one of these tables for work outside of my tiny workshop. Given the choice of one or the other, Peter, which one would you go for?
If you’re tight on space and budget then the Excel with a replacement top is a good option, but the Metabo is a better bench, just by virtue of having the t-slot in the extrusion. It is bigger though, costs twice as much, and may still need to top reaming out or replacing. 🤷♂️👍
Thank you! I am certainly tight on space. I’ve just flagged an area in the garden that my wife thinks is for sitting on 😅. Also the only budget is convincing my wife I need one
The benches look lovely with new tops.
Maybe yellow? Black? Red?
And a label: 10MW Minime
Black valchromat would lok pretty funky, wouldnt they? Or black phenolic? 👌
My playlist…10MW MFT Upgrades…immediatley followed by 3 X 3 Custom-Tamar and her DIY MFT Bench…it’s a sign 😅
Legs and frame for half the price would be a winner. Just buy or make your own top?
It would, but I don’t expect that to be on their radar, unfortunately! 🤷♂️👍
So what is the ´correct’ size hole? I’m soon to have a timber supplier with a cnc make me a couple MFT tops in a full 8x4 sheet so I can have two large MFTs . Is it 20mm hole i ask for or 19.something ? Thanks
If you're having one CNCd to your specifications, then I'd measure the bench dogs you want to use with it and have it made to fit them. For most that will be 20mm, but why make it generic when you can have it tailored to your bench dogs. Better still, give the CNC company one of the dogs and tell them that you want the holes to fit it snugly. 👍
is there a white van full of tools parked out in the street to your right with the rear doors still open? i'm still a little anxious from that previous video. 😂
Not any more... 😂
That mod makes one of those benches a more attractive proposition, I use manual planes a lot, how diagonally ridgid are each of them ? I was very disapointed with the Bosh "workmate" equivalent as it had very little rigidity and was hopeless for use when planing.
Reason my hand planes and chisels rarely get used: in 2015, I had no space for my 1976 B&D Workmate, gave it away. Now regretting that sad loss. Even after 40 years, it was rock solid for hand tool work
Hey Jon! Without direct experience with those two benches, having seen a couple of foldable ones, I would say, that they will dissappoint you when working with a hand-plane.
The only one that I found rigid enough for this purpose is a not very expensive Einhell bench (BT-WB 150). They sell for around 80-90€ here in Germany. I bought mine at a clearance sale at ALDI fpr 49. The legs of this bench are at an angle when foldet aout. They have rubber ends, which gives the bench a good stance in the direction of the force. The legs are sturdy enough, because you can use the bench also a step.
Not sure if you get Einhell in the UK but if yes, perhaps you give that one a try. The two-sided top can be flipped over, so it was easy to build a second one from 22mm MDF with bench-dog holes.
Cheers
Andreas
@@cuebj That was what I would call a bad idea...
On one of the woodworking channels here in Germany, those old Workmates were a topic in the comments. Unbeatable.
Perhaps the recommendation I gave Jon is an alternative for you? Not as small as a Workmate but it has coasters under the frame so you can use it as a cart. I use them, to stow it away underneath my fixed workbench in my shop.
Cheers
Andreas
I dont think I'd recommend any portable bench for hand planing tbh, though the diagonal leg bracing certainly helps with these, and the Metabo being bigger with more mass helps as well. Have to admit, it's not something I considered so I'll try it out and see how it goes. 👍
Is there also a replacement top for the Wolfcraft MFT available? Wolfcraft has the opposite problem, the holes are too loose for my benchdogs.
I haven’t asked Derek at Karvd CNC to make one, but I imagine he’d be able to if you gave him the dimensions. I found a turn of thin masking tape around the bench dogs worked perfectly for the wolfcraft. 👍
does the festool fence and rail hinge work with the metabo table?
No, Festool needs a proprietary depth of t-slot.
@@10MinuteWorkshop Ok, Now I know your Ikea hack is still the most viable non Festool mft solution. Saved me some money on that. Thank you. And 3x3 Tamar recently did hers mft top that I found to have some fancy ideas.
I'm wondering if the metabo table will be available in the US as metabo and hinoki have merged for the NA market.
Above my pay-grade, but I think it would be *very* popular if it were! 👍
Thanks for this Peter. Are both tables the same height as a festool MFT?
Thanks! The specs were in the previous videos - from memory the Metabo bench was very close, the Excel fell a little short. 👍
Were the OEM hole config an issue as well for your requirements? Does seem an expensive upgrade over reaming the holes out.
Time vs money. The smaller Excel bench had dog holes at 76mm centres, so the replacement top makes it the standard 96mm spacing. I don’t personally like the tops with slots in them - that’s not how I use the bench - and as I say in the video I found the little ‘small parts’ recesses in the Metabo top just irritating as they took away a dog hole. A reamer is £25 plus some time, vs £45 for the smaller drop-in top; you pays your money and makes your choice. 🤷♂️👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop Makes sense, do you use the MFT table you made a year or two ago?
@@ICanSeeClearlyNow The workshop one? Yes, I use it all the time - I'm swapping tops on these two benches resting on that MFT! 👍
I bought two of these Metabos and have no problem with the holes whatsoever.
Thanks! Can I ask which bench dogs are you using, and when you bought your benches?👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop I use a PVC 20mm ISO pipe (brand: Kopp Heinrich but I am sure any brand will do) that I cut to 10cm length because it is cheap, fits the purpose and why not. I bought the two benches just two weeks ago. So after you asked I went to see if the bench dogs from a Bosch PWB 600 would fit and they are as difficult to put in as you show in your video supporting your experience. BTW they are also rather difficult to fit into the Bosch workbench they belong to as well. In any case I would not go so far as to buy a new top to be honest. The pipe costs € 1.79 for 2m ;-) So accidentally that is my solution. But I do understand the pain if you invested in high quality bench dogs. Perhaps a bit of sanding (of the holes, not the bench dogs) could do the trick as well?
@@sebastiansimon9737 ich habe auch 2 MWB hier, beim einen passten die Benchdogs (UJK, Benchdogs UK, Dictum) perfekt, beim anderen brauchte es sanfte Gewalt sie in die Löcher zu bekommen und ne Wasserpumpenzange um sie rauszuholen 😂
See 3x3 Customs is getting in on the act////
Did you price up a new piece of MDF without the holes as a replacement!
That would be like pricing up a cone without the icecream! 😂
Could they have actually been factory cut for a tight 3/4” I’d? //ji
No, they’re meant to be 20mm holes on 96mm centres - they publish the specs - but many of the early batches have come up very tight, more like 19.5mm 🤷♂️👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop concur - I have three tables (all Festool) often wondered if location around the world (humidity) would ever effect that critical .5 mm?
Thanks Mr. Mr. Millard. //ji
If reaming the holes, can the reamer move off centre to the hole? Could this affect alignment of holes? How to keep the reamer dead still in relation to the centre of the hole and in line with the rest of the row?
At least in metal works, the reamer has a small cone at the front so it self centers. It shaves off such a small amount of material with several blades around the circumference, that it should not lead to misalignment.
Cheers
Andreas
I've never used one that didn't self-centre, but honestly if it's a concern then I'd pay the extra £25 for the ready made top. 👍
@@andreasbentz6106 Wow! Thanks to both near instant replies from you and 10MW himself.
Metabo top and UJK reamer looks fine for my degree of accuracy making anything up to 100 bee hives for/with my son in North Wales. I can use it myself in SE London or pop it in car and drive to him. Just need a cheap cordless tracksaw and track - the Evolution looks good apart from my ten years old very negative experience of their quality control
Entertaining and pleasant as your videos are the stuff on this one makes no sense other than, for some and eventually, gaining extra knowledge about these two benches. The reckoning? Anyone thinking about buying a proper MFT bench / MFT bench clone: buy the right stuff from the outset: buy well buy once and if you look around it will cost less than the Metabo's... Nothing wrong with these two benches though if you can leave them as they are or alternatively with just tiny inexpensive mods.
Whilst I don't disagree, not everybody has the means to 'buy well, buy once' and plain fact is that the needs of many people will be met by these benches, rather than a Festool MFT/3 or the Benchdogs Ultra MFT / Basic. It's those folks who I made this video for, and the people who have already bought the Metabo bench, found it lacking in the dog-hole department but are unsure what the best way is to resolve the situtation. And now they know. 👍
And what are no names and details of your suggested bench' coming in at under the cost of these two? Interesting to have access to a "Real MFT" options as you suggest:
"The reckoning? Anyone thinking about buying a proper MFT bench / MFT bench clone: buy the right stuff from the outset: buy well buy once and if you look around it will cost less than the Metabo's..."
It's a little strange because upgrading the Excel for £55 + the little risers, so let's call it £65, is reasonable, especially when the Excel bench itself is £60, still comes in quite economical. Whereas for the Metabo, that definitely becomes a very expensive set of legs to upgrade.
The top for the Excel is £45, just FYI. 👍
@@10MinuteWorkshop That makes it even more economical and worth doing.
Sorry, but "upgrading".....surely this making these tops "Fit for purpose". Disappointing attitude for Metabo, if these holes need Reaming, they
should Ream them at the factory.
In the USA the standard is 3/4-inch holes on 4-inch centers and in other parts it's closer to 19.75mm on 96, it's only in the UK that the MFT became a full 20mm on 96mm, it's unusual. My Bora top "likes" 20mm dogs just fine and so does my old Workmate! (believe it or not).
@@mikeking7470 not only UK, also in Germany.
@@Micha_Baor rather any other country than the US.
The 20mm standard is Europe (metric, remember). If Metabo can makes them precisely too small then why can't they make them precisely the correct size?
Did you put the top on the Metabo on the wrong way up?
Nope. The handle is bolted on from the top face, and the bolts recessed into the surface - you can see it on the original Metabo top. 👍
Do these new tops support rail hinges?
The DiY version, Peter showed in an earlier video, should work. On the excel you need to mount a T-Track but as we know, IKEA has a solution (watch that older video).
Cheers
Andreas
There'll be a follow-on where I talk about rails hinges for these benches. You can get the benchdogs hinge to fit on the new Metabo top, yes, and the Dashboard hinge and my DIY hinge have always fitted on the Metabo bench because of the t-tracks. The Excel bench I'll have to try with the Benchdogs hinge - keep you posted.
I don't get why the manufacturers deliberately make the dog holes too small, given that they control production. "Its better to make the holes too small than too large?" Why not just make the holes the standard size? Why optimize for a lesser fraction of the accessory market?
Exactly! 🤷♂️👍
nooice
You need a bigger shed lol
I do! 😂👍
Peter, do you think Metabo would be will to sell their workbench without its worktop with a discount? Might be one way of addressing the challenge to customers?
I’d say there’s zero chance of that! But I don’t work for Metabo... 🤷♂️
@@10MinuteWorkshop hehe
It makes no sense to buy the product if it's defective. Why would I buy it just to replace the top. This would prevent me from investing in getting either one of those because I still have to fix their error versus them fixing it. I know these are made by CNC so they can correct it and should give a 55 discount from their price if I have to invest to fix their issue
Thank you Peter for providing this upgrade. Now could we see a self build bench using say the Metabo top. Thank you.
Thanks! Not sure I understand - the Metabo top was changed because it was the best option (I felt) to change it. I don't think I'd want to make a DIY MFT based around that top, personally. 🤔 🤷♂️
@@10MinuteWorkshop I mean you design and build your own bench using the metabo replacement top.
@@kevinronald4137 Ah, OK. TBH I'm not sure of the appeal, unless it's the smaller size? If you're making one from scratch why not use - with all respect to Derek at Karvd CNC - a cheaper off the shelf full-sized MFT replacement top? I've done a couple of those already, they're in the MFT playlist. 👍
These look too small to do most of the work you'd like to do on them surely?
Me personally? The Festool MFT was too small for me in the workshop, but as an ‘out and about’ bench they’re pretty great, and two of them makes for a very versatile setup. 👍
I can’t help but think a person would be better off making one of your portable benches rather than mess about with these.
I'd be inclined to agree, but not everyone wants what we want, and if something off-the-shelt - or something different - suits them better then good for them. 👍