Some of us dealer techs deserve some credit but I cant deny most are after the almighty dollar and an easy day of maintenance. Videos like yours though keep people who love the hunt sharp and remind you that sometimes you have to slow down and solve an individual persons problem
@@autodiagyt As an apprentice 30 years ago I was low key mocked by the qualified tradesmen for wanting to learn to understand even the basics like the ignition waveform on the tunescope. I even took the manual home at night to read and learn.
For techs 60 yrs and up. Do you all find this as overwhelming as I do. I’ve been at this since 1972 before electronic ignition, fuel injection , computers and networks. I’ve seen the expansion of electronics. But using this many networks just blows my 68 yr old mind. I enjoy watching Ivan tackle these jobs but I realize there has to be a limit to how many techs understand these systems. I’ve seen the blank looks in class on a lot easier systems over the years. I’ve seen the number of cars Ivan tackles that dealer techs can’t figure out with their overwhelming info advantage. I wont be surprised to hear there are a lot who don’t comprehend everything he does. I’m not too proud to admit I don’t. I consider myself in the top 10% of techs on electrical diagnostic skills but see that I’m falling behind since I retired 6 yrs ago. Just interested in what you older guys think. The young 40 and less can chime in too. I won’t be offended. Del
Great comment, Del. Technology advances so fast, that even the specialists have a hard time keeping up at times! On the other hand there are no boring moments in this field. You are right that if you don't practice hands-on every day, then it's even harder to keep up!
I’m a retired 76 year old master tech with an AA in electronics, HVAC Universal license and 1st Class FCC license. Watching this guy makes me feel dumb .
Customer complaint proved! Now the challenge is finding which module or modules awaken and hopefully the cause. It is a bummer when the only thing you find is the module that awakens and not what actually awakens the module. I appreciate the module could be faulty, however identifying the module is only one part of the diagnosis. the other is determining if it is a faulty module or if it is an external issue that is buried in the depths of the vehicle or wiring loom somewhere, either OEM or worse still, aftermarket. Either way, confirming the root cause before calling the module could be an expensive bugger. I am looking forward to part 2.
For cases like this it would be really interesting to use pico serial decoding to get the CAN ID of that first message that appears on wakeup. Once you have the message ID, you could find out which module that belongs to by just monitoring the network in a normal ignition on state, and pulling fuses for each module on the network until the ID of interest disappears. For this to work you would need to sample the network at a high enough rate to be able to decode it, and also use the very first message only, as once one module has started transmitting it may wake other modules as well.
I was just coming to write your comment as I downloaded the pico data and see that the sample rate isn't enough to do serial decode. A parallel suggestion would be that there are purpose-built CAN decoders/encoders that could be connected to the network to do this capture a little more simply if you want the serial and not needing the waveform. There's some information over on redit's CarHacking subredit in a pinned post and sidebar.
Oh I’ve seen a lot of strange causes in almost 50 yrs. (I’m not Scotty K). I’ve climbed in trunks when younger, seen all manner of owner induced problems but these seem related to poorly made electronics a lot of times. I agree with comment above. Create one such as trunk light and go through motions of tracking it down. Very few are cut and dried. Good luck.
3 amps for 10 seconds every 100 seconds is only 0.3 amps average. Your typical car battery is at least 50 amp-hours so it should hold out for at least 100 hours. So it should not be dying overnight, more like after 4 days or so. Or maybe the stress of losing 1/4 of the charge and recharging that much the next day, maybe that wore out or dried up the battery. Waiting for part 2!!
@@dizzy2020 I understand that one can't describe a battery with just one number, the power curve is going to be a bit .... curved. But not to the extent that a 300 milliamp load will discharge a battery "overnight"! That's over ten times the expected discharge rate. But then on the other hand, if the battery has been repeatedly discharged to zero many times, it's amp-hour capacity can be greatly diminished, even if it's relatively new. Long ago my father had a mercury with a tit-switch controlling the trunk light. If you parked the car on a hill, facing down, the trunk light would go on and discharge the battery quite a bit overnight, leading to eventual battery failure.
The cause of this is the "welcome" feature on your Lincoln (when your car seems to wake up once you get close enough to it with your key fob). If your Lincoln is dying overnight it's because you're parking your car close to the house or in the garage, and keeping your keys in a spot close enough to initiate the "welcome" feature, door never opens, allowing it to fade out, and then once off it re initiates the same feature and same cycle over and over until your battery completely dies....you're welcome. And if you actually watched this whole video ... 🤦 You'll never get that time back
i used to have a lot of parasitic draws was always able to figure it out checking fuses with meter finally got a scope and haven't had one yet hope i don't forget how when it happens. beauty of UA-cam is i can pull up so many of your videos to get me started
Thank you Ivan for showing how valuable a scope can be in helping track down misbehaving modules like this. Knowing the info you just gathered from the scope will seriously cut down the list of suspects in this case study. Your right though. Without the help of the scope, a problem like this could take days, or even weeks to hopefully discover the problem. And would most likely allude someone like me from ever finding it. I can't wait to see what you find in part 2.
Ivan, you tend to focus on the fact that Ford vehicles take extended time to go to sleep. I bought my Mercury when it had 92 miles on it and was being used as a demonstrator. I got the car home and was admiring my new car (I have grown up since then!) and suddenly the air compressor started (it is equipped with rear-air-suspension.) I talked to a technician at the dealership and he told me that air compressor can run up to 29 minutes after the ignition has been cycled. That car is 27 years old. So, I can conclude that has been going on for many years. Great video!
Some cars will run the HVAC blower roughly 10 minutes after the vehicle is shut off (with the AC on) to dry the evaporator. I know Saturn used to do it, I haven't noticed in in a while though, but I don't doubt many euro cars do it today.
Just thought I would let you know my favorite tool to find parasitic draws in general is a thermal camera. Found a P.A.T.S. module awake in a Lincoln Navigator last time I used it and it was behind the dash. Found in about 20 seconds.
Hopefully the wiring diagram will be helpful in locating the problem module. Taking the problem CAN network out from the gateway loop or taking it apart also called isolation is the best way to find the problem, IF you can do that. THIS problem should be "Very Interesting!" Very much looking forward to part 2 ! !
Oscilloscopes are awesome tools. I was a computer software engineer (retiired now), and for much of my career, I kept an actual old fashion analog oscilloscope on the workbench next to my desk along with a variable power supply, a digital multimeter, and a signal generator. Those were the basic tools of an electronics bench technician in the 1970s-90s, but I found that o-scope useful for all sorts of realtime computer software debugging, as I was working on IO device drivers much of my career.
Wow, Ivan that was really cool diagnosis of the parasitic draw!! Glad you had the experience to find out right down to brass tacks!!! Nice job Ivan. Let's see what happens in part 2.. i bet it is the cluster or the radio problem, as i remember your past videos!
Simply amazing! And there's no way any dealer can do what you are doing, they would not have the patience, and I would guess that their techs would not have the training. Can't wait for the mystery to be solved.
Not all dealer techs are what you think they are. Quite a good bit of them are top notch. It's the industry, flat rate, managers, advisers and customers that expect Techs to have 1 hour or less crystal ball diagnostic abilities. For those that are able to tackle in depth diagnostics, they also have to balance other jobs to maintain a paycheck. That in itself pulls their focus away from such in depth jobs.
I was a Ford tech for 17 years in Canada. My shop was hourly not flat rate, so jobs like these paid the same as any gravy job so they got the attention they needed. I did lots of diag on parasitic draws, only wish that I had learned to use a scope sooner! Just love seeing scopes put to use like this
its not that they are trained, its that dealerships are driven by work completed per hour. diagnosing a car for more than an hour places that worker in a bad spot as they have now gone more than 2 hours without completing a car. diagnosing cars doesnt pay the rent. firing the parts cannon does. they will 100% replace your whole engine then realize the real issue was just a $10 part without telling you. 100% of the time.
Very interesting case, if not annoying for being intermittent! Thought process of a real Sherlock Holmes, Ivan 🙂Like most network problems, impossible to have a clue without a scope. I find it maybe telling, that there is only a slight increase in current, before it triggers an event that wakes the network. If it weren't regular like a clock, I would say a parasitic current somewhere (green crusties or water intrusion), but being so regular, it must be a module on its own. Curious to see which one is the culprit - let Part 2 begin soon 🙂
Thank you for your time and video of this issue! I was having the same problem and after a quick youtube search found your video. After watching i started taking off the side panel trim and unplugged as you stated. Wahla! It worked. Been a couple weeks and hasn't drain the battery since. Save me hundreds of dollars if not more. No way a dealership wouldve done this.
Fordtechmakuloco has a parasitic draw video from a year ago or so. On a Ford escape. Rear wiper motor was seized but module was attempting to PARK the arm. Pulled upto 4amps for 10secs. Killing battery over night.
Ran across your video - Well done - I have 2016 MKX that is experience a parasitic draw as well - Thinking it is having the same issue - Telematic Control Module - I believe that module is 3G based and with the U.S. shutting down the 3G network in 2021 I am thinking that module is continually trying to connect to the network and never shutting down which would cause the drain - I know Lincoln offers a upgrade to the 4G work but is outrageously priced. Let me know thought if you think that could be it
You are a genius to diagnose this parasitic draw. Similar to looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack. You should take bets on which module(s) are the culprit.
With these PITA wakeups I wonder if it would be beneficial to have something listening to the CANBUS(es) and logging the addresses of the transmitters to track down which module is behind the problem more easily.
What is concerning me more than anything is the fact that these cars are taking multiple hours/days to diagnose. I just don't see this fitting in with the dealership business model. It isn't likely a service writer/dealership is going to commit the time, training, equipment and expertise to properly diagnose these issues. The best part, these are NEW cars. What will they be like in the future? Great vodep!
Can you imagine what will happen by the time they are on third owner? Talking about bypassing circuits , taped up twisted wires and unmarked toggle switches everywhere 🤔
Just acquired grandfather’s 2016 3.7L MKX, has only 12,000 miles. Put new battery, air filters etc, drove home 750 miles. Week later battery draining parked overnight. Unplugged a AAA device from port under steering column thinking that maybe cause. Now battery holding for days but on last road-trip and since last jumpstart the Nav and infotainment have gone black? Car driving fine just missing all the tech
I wonder if it is possible to read that data that is being transferred. If so, maybe the modules ID themselves when the talk to each other. You have great troubleshooting skills, Ivan!
I can't pass up this opportunity to mention that my 07 Mercedes S550 4Matic (which is just about a base US model) has 39 modules. It does NOT drain the battery overnight, or really have a drain problem at all. Of course, Mercedes cheated slightly with this car. It has a huge group 49 battery in the trunk and all that battery does is power accessories and handle any slight drains. A smaller battery under the hood is for starting only. Still, I limped along for an entire year with a BAD trunk battery and there were no issues, even sitting for days in the cold.
Hey Ivan! Long time, no see! (MY fault). Man, that thing is CRAZY complicated. THIRTY modules!! Insanity! Imagine one of these in a flood - you'd end up burning it trying to diagnose it, LOL! 🤣Can't wait to see the cause of this one. 👍😎👍
Oh boy, this one is gonna be fun. Can’t wait for the solution. I too have a “parasitic draw” Ivan….known as a wife and kids in college…😂😂 Not as easy to replace those modules, need a NPR repair. Always a great ride my man.
IVAN, AWESOME thought process and approach brother you right on modern cars to diagnose electrical problem a SCOPE is must with out it you go no where to find the problem thanks for sharing and as always learning form the best. cheeeeeeers
I'm about 9 mins in and wondering, if ambient temp was cold enough, one couldn't watch the fuse box with an IR camera when the amps spiked up and get an idea which fuse was heating up then see which modules were powered on that fuse. Together with your scoping the different networks might narrow it down to a single, or very few, modules really quickly
Someone mentioned in a comment how locking your vehicle can prevent some electrical draws, not sure if this is true. I think the commenter was talking specifically about Subaru's.
Ivan... U have forgotten what you have taught us!!! 3amp draw for 10seconds. I just timed myself!! I can test 7 fuses for a voltage in 10s!!! every 1m 47s I can test 7 more fuses!!! I would have tested all the fuses in the car before you finished reading the circuit diagram, installed pinch clips and setup the scope!!! This is what you taught us! :) LOL...
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics lol. in a year u will be showing the actual data being sent on the line. I would assume that data actually says "im module xyz whats up yall?" I assume the voltage drop method would be helpful here though
In this scenario, would it have been more useful to hook up a graphic DMM or something like a 1 channel scope in series with the battery to catch that 3A spike event rather than a regular DMM? It seemed like luck that Ivan was able to catch the event as it happened on the DMM. With something graphing, even if you missed it you could look back in history and see the spike. In this case it seemed important to catch the 3A event since it gave a clue that a module was waking up and then going back to sleep. Otherwise you would only be chasing that constant 65mA draw. I'm looking forward to part 2 since it seems like there may be 2 separate issues. What is causing the 3A spike and then the "resting" 65mA draw.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I think I've seen in previous videos of yours the Snap On Vantage can graph Amperage. Or could you use an amp clamp around the negative cable and graph that way? Maybe I'm dreaming of a magical tool that doesn't exist 😆. Forgive me. I'm not a tech. I'm an accountant who is really into cars and enjoys learning new things.
@@kv2280 yes actually the old Vantage could graph current! Wish the Pico could too. Current clamps have too much drift over time, especially at the milliamps scale. Accounting and diagnostics have some key things in common like being precise with numbers and keeping careful notes 😁👍
and the vantage pro does internal amps. the last great scope meter snap on made. does things newer versions can’t, and has a long long data memory, so perfect for a job like battery draw. wish somebody still made a tool like the original vantage or the vantage pro. a real time graphing multimeter is a very handy thing. i love the vantage pro so much that i finally found two of them.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I do appreciate you checking it out Ivan:) all gadgets on my channel are DIY, all build info is shared am much too lazy to build for sale:)
Have to love all these vehicles that have loaded up to the gills options. Really just more chances and opportunities for things to go haywire. I wonder what else is in the high speed three can? Maybe it's that module under the headliner again?
Is it possible to have a modern US domestic vehicle with less than 30 modules? 😂 I think we surpassed the reliability limit a long time ago… Very interesting case study, Ivan 👍
@@user-fn6pq9tp2g the R&D budget on aircraft is much higher, things are only fitted for a practical purpose - and they're still allowed to use "proper" solder with lead in it. Lead free solder is one of the main causes of failure, whether it's tin whiskers or cracked joints on connectors or anything with significant thermal cycling. The ones I see the most are Ford Focus clusters for crank no start and Fiat "Blue&Me" modules for flashing mileage and parasitic drain.
Is it possible to narrow down the cause quicker by looking at the fuse boxes through an infrared camera? Surely the circuits that are drawing a lot of current will be obvious when contrasted with the sleeping circuits?
I had a customer complain that their Cadillac randomly drains its battery. I put an amp clamp on it, went to sleep fine, few mA draw. So I go back to my truck to get a new battery and hear a noise coming from the Cady. I've got the key out, doors locked, and the radio is playing.
I have a 2009 mks when the temperature outside raises or my defrost is on my electrical components such as my radio/navigation and climate controls go out. it also tells me that all of my doors are open. I’ve checked battery fuses altanater im lost as to what i need to check next
I recently bought a scope for can wiring diagnosis I just wonder where do you hook up your leads to? Most can networks have + and -, does it matter which one you hook up to?
I had a Hyundai Sonata that had a parasitic draw. I had a board clamped over the door switch to check the inside fuses. Found nothing. Pulled the board and the switch was the draw. Replaced it. Happened again. Replaced the switch again, nothing fixed. Had to go to the dealer for a safety recall and asked them to look at it. They brought over a body repair guy. Turns out the door metal was so thing, a seat belt could dent the door so the switch couldn't reach the door. He quoted me a price to repair the door, but said it would happen again. Suggested inserting washers behind the door pillar and the switch. Ground out part of the washer to fit over the wires. Problem fixed. Unfortunately not mush farther into the fortune, it got slammed in the rear and got totalled.
Looking over your shoulder, I see the XL-7, the Mystique, and the MPV. It sure does look like that Probe you featured for the Halloween Special is parked up there as well. Are you going to be doing work on it in the future? Would be interesting!
I thought Ivan was becoming a Probe Specialist. Actually that sounds kind of weird. That could easily be misinterpreted. Though, those customers could be very interesting. And the case studies would be really interesting. Part 1 - Look what I found. Part 2 - How did that get in there. Ford Probe jokes. Glad I could use them again. I thought they were gone forever.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Yes, that might be true but it's worth a look, maybe it would yield a clue. Maybe pulling those fuses one by one might yield more.
@@rmr5740 remember that pulling fuses on a modern car costs a LOT of time and can have unintended consequences because all the modules are interconnected. Strategy here is to use non intrusive testing and hopefully pull just one fuse to solve the problem 🙂
Looks a new model to be giving trouble. Isolating the networks has done the business. Very time consuming exercise but seems to be showing results. 3 amps is a bit over the top. Too troublesome for a dealer, especially with the extended timeframe involved. You'll soon be crowned 👑 of the parasitic draw division.
The one I’m working on is the hybrid MKZ It’s got a 600mA current draw. I’m good with electronics and stuff. I am just not familiar with a cars communication. All I know is it uses CAN. As far as high speed low speed etc I am lost why it would use different speed for communication
Just depends on required volume and speed of data transmission. Not really an important detail. But you DO need a 4-channel oscilloscope to monitor the network activity to see if someone is "waking up" the entire network :)
My 2017 MKZ when I first got it, had an ACM firmware issue which caused the module to never sleep correctly. It will kill batteries. Pretty known issue across Fusion/Fusion Sport and MKZ. I'm not sure about MKX. All those modules are tough on batteries, especially cold.
When I've had very intermittent faults on TVs & audio in the past, I point a camcorder at the screen and leave it recording on lower quality mode. Might work for initial stages of something like this.
Oh no, I hope that isn't the same Probe from Halloween I see in the background. Though, what are the chances it's a different one. If it is a different one, Ivan must have seen a business opportunity specializing in 25 year old Ford Probes that surprisingly no one else saw.
HS3 has mostly audio and user interface devices, including instrument cluster and telemetrics. I'm gonna throw a wild guess at either the cd player or FDIM. lol
Some of us dealer techs deserve some credit but I cant deny most are after the almighty dollar and an easy day of maintenance. Videos like yours though keep people who love the hunt sharp and remind you that sometimes you have to slow down and solve an individual persons problem
As a retired tech of German cars after 38 yrs.couldn't have put it any better.
@@autodiagyt As an apprentice 30 years ago I was low key mocked by the qualified tradesmen for wanting to learn to understand even the basics like the ignition waveform on the tunescope. I even took the manual home at night to read and learn.
My bank account had a parasitic draw once. Took me years to get rid of her.
Must of been a real bitch..
😂🤣
🤣😂
They are indeed the most expensive thing a man can have
LOL!
Dedication to your craft at its absolute finest. Ivan it is because of techs like you that makes watching you a joy
For techs 60 yrs and up. Do you all find this as overwhelming as I do. I’ve been at this since 1972 before electronic ignition, fuel injection , computers and networks. I’ve seen the expansion of electronics. But using this many networks just blows my 68 yr old mind.
I enjoy watching Ivan tackle these jobs but I realize there has to be a limit to how many techs understand these systems.
I’ve seen the blank looks in class on a lot easier systems over the years.
I’ve seen the number of cars Ivan tackles that dealer techs can’t figure out with their overwhelming info advantage.
I wont be surprised to hear there are a lot who don’t comprehend everything he does. I’m not too proud to admit I don’t. I consider myself in the top 10% of techs on electrical diagnostic skills but see that I’m falling behind since I retired 6 yrs ago.
Just interested in what you older guys think. The young 40 and less can chime in too. I won’t be offended. Del
Great comment, Del. Technology advances so fast, that even the specialists have a hard time keeping up at times! On the other hand there are no boring moments in this field. You are right that if you don't practice hands-on every day, then it's even harder to keep up!
I’m a retired 76 year old master tech with an AA in electronics, HVAC Universal license and 1st Class FCC license. Watching this guy makes me feel dumb .
Customer complaint proved! Now the challenge is finding which module or modules awaken and hopefully the cause. It is a bummer when the only thing you find is the module that awakens and not what actually awakens the module. I appreciate the module could be faulty, however identifying the module is only one part of the diagnosis. the other is determining if it is a faulty module or if it is an external issue that is buried in the depths of the vehicle or wiring loom somewhere, either OEM or worse still, aftermarket. Either way, confirming the root cause before calling the module could be an expensive bugger. I am looking forward to part 2.
For cases like this it would be really interesting to use pico serial decoding to get the CAN ID of that first message that appears on wakeup. Once you have the message ID, you could find out which module that belongs to by just monitoring the network in a normal ignition on state, and pulling fuses for each module on the network until the ID of interest disappears. For this to work you would need to sample the network at a high enough rate to be able to decode it, and also use the very first message only, as once one module has started transmitting it may wake other modules as well.
I was just coming to write your comment as I downloaded the pico data and see that the sample rate isn't enough to do serial decode. A parallel suggestion would be that there are purpose-built CAN decoders/encoders that could be connected to the network to do this capture a little more simply if you want the serial and not needing the waveform. There's some information over on redit's CarHacking subredit in a pinned post and sidebar.
I haven't had to deal with a parasitic draw yet. I have the scope. I keep watching you and Eric diagnose these.
You can create one in any car to practice the detective art.
Oh I’ve seen a lot of strange causes in almost 50 yrs. (I’m not Scotty K). I’ve climbed in trunks when younger, seen all manner of owner induced problems but these seem related to poorly made electronics a lot of times.
I agree with comment above. Create one such as trunk light and go through motions of tracking it down. Very few are cut and dried. Good luck.
3 amps for 10 seconds every 100 seconds is only 0.3 amps average. Your typical car battery is at least 50 amp-hours so it should hold out for at least 100 hours. So it should not be dying overnight, more like after 4 days or so. Or maybe the stress of losing 1/4 of the charge and recharging that much the next day, maybe that wore out or dried up the battery. Waiting for part 2!!
Lead acid battery capacities are inflated. You'd be lucky to get 20 useable and not battery life shortening amp hours out of a 100 amp hour battery.
@@dizzy2020 I understand that one can't describe a battery with just one number, the power curve is going to be a bit .... curved. But not to the extent that a 300 milliamp load will discharge a battery "overnight"! That's over ten times the expected discharge rate. But then on the other hand, if the battery has been repeatedly discharged to zero many times, it's amp-hour capacity can be greatly diminished, even if it's relatively new.
Long ago my father had a mercury with a tit-switch controlling the trunk light. If you parked the car on a hill, facing down, the trunk light would go on and discharge the battery quite a bit overnight, leading to eventual battery failure.
Can only imagine what is the problem module this time around. Looking forward to part 2!
The cause of this is the "welcome" feature on your Lincoln (when your car seems to wake up once you get close enough to it with your key fob). If your Lincoln is dying overnight it's because you're parking your car close to the house or in the garage, and keeping your keys in a spot close enough to initiate the "welcome" feature, door never opens, allowing it to fade out, and then once off it re initiates the same feature and same cycle over and over until your battery completely dies....you're welcome. And if you actually watched this whole video ... 🤦 You'll never get that time back
i used to have a lot of parasitic draws was always able to figure it out checking fuses with meter finally got a scope and haven't had one yet hope i don't forget how when it happens. beauty of UA-cam is i can pull up so many of your videos to get me started
Thank you Ivan for showing how valuable a scope can be in helping track down misbehaving modules like this. Knowing the info you just gathered from the scope will seriously cut down the list of suspects in this case study. Your right though. Without the help of the scope, a problem like this could take days, or even weeks to hopefully discover the problem. And would most likely allude someone like me from ever finding it. I can't wait to see what you find in part 2.
"They probably don't even know how to use an ammeter"- Ivan
LOL
Ivan, you tend to focus on the fact that Ford vehicles take extended time to go to sleep. I bought my Mercury when it had 92 miles on it and was being used as a demonstrator. I got the car home and was admiring my new car (I have grown up since then!) and suddenly the air compressor started (it is equipped with rear-air-suspension.) I talked to a technician at the dealership and he told me that air compressor can run up to 29 minutes after the ignition has been cycled. That car is 27 years old. So, I can conclude that has been going on for many years. Great video!
Some cars will run the HVAC blower roughly 10 minutes after the vehicle is shut off (with the AC on) to dry the evaporator. I know Saturn used to do it, I haven't noticed in in a while though, but I don't doubt many euro cars do it today.
Every 1 minute & 40 seconds! No wonder the battery goes dead! Part 2 hopefully has the answer to what it is! Thanks Ivan! Very interesting for sure!
Just thought I would let you know my favorite tool to find parasitic draws in general is a thermal camera. Found a P.A.T.S. module awake in a Lincoln Navigator last time I used it and it was behind the dash. Found in about 20 seconds.
I love watching you diagnose. I feel smarter and have learned a lot
I was totally into this, not realizing it was about to end. Pumped for part two
Hopefully the wiring diagram will be helpful in locating the problem module. Taking the problem CAN network out from the gateway loop or taking it apart also called isolation is the best way to find the problem, IF you can do that. THIS problem should be "Very Interesting!"
Very much looking forward to part 2 ! !
Oscilloscopes are awesome tools. I was a computer software engineer (retiired now), and for much of my career, I kept an actual old fashion analog oscilloscope on the workbench next to my desk along with a variable power supply, a digital multimeter, and a signal generator. Those were the basic tools of an electronics bench technician in the 1970s-90s, but I found that o-scope useful for all sorts of realtime computer software debugging, as I was working on IO device drivers much of my career.
Wow, Ivan that was really cool diagnosis of the parasitic draw!! Glad you had the experience to find out right down to brass tacks!!! Nice job Ivan. Let's see what happens in part 2.. i bet it is the cluster or the radio problem, as i remember your past videos!
Simply amazing! And there's no way any dealer can do what you are doing, they would not have the patience, and I would guess that their techs would not have the training. Can't wait for the mystery to be solved.
Not all dealer techs are what you think they are. Quite a good bit of them are top notch. It's the industry, flat rate, managers, advisers and customers that expect Techs to have 1 hour or less crystal ball diagnostic abilities. For those that are able to tackle in depth diagnostics, they also have to balance other jobs to maintain a paycheck. That in itself pulls their focus away from such in depth jobs.
I was a Ford tech for 17 years in Canada. My shop was hourly not flat rate, so jobs like these paid the same as any gravy job so they got the attention they needed. I did lots of diag on parasitic draws, only wish that I had learned to use a scope sooner! Just love seeing scopes put to use like this
its not that they are trained, its that dealerships are driven by work completed per hour. diagnosing a car for more than an hour places that worker in a bad spot as they have now gone more than 2 hours without completing a car. diagnosing cars doesnt pay the rent. firing the parts cannon does. they will 100% replace your whole engine then realize the real issue was just a $10 part without telling you. 100% of the time.
@@Joetechlincolns That's very true.
Very interesting case, if not annoying for being intermittent! Thought process of a real Sherlock Holmes, Ivan 🙂Like most network problems, impossible to have a clue without a scope.
I find it maybe telling, that there is only a slight increase in current, before it triggers an event that wakes the network. If it weren't regular like a clock, I would say a parasitic current somewhere (green crusties or water intrusion), but being so regular, it must be a module on its own. Curious to see which one is the culprit - let Part 2 begin soon 🙂
Thank you for your time and video of this issue! I was having the same problem and after a quick youtube search found your video. After watching i started taking off the side panel trim and unplugged as you stated. Wahla! It worked. Been a couple weeks and hasn't drain the battery since. Save me hundreds of dollars if not more. No way a dealership wouldve done this.
Sweet! Feel free to contribute to the PayPal link 😁👍
"...four channel scope!" Beautifully detailed capture of the event. Well done Ivan!
Fordtechmakuloco
has a parasitic draw video from a year ago or so. On a Ford escape. Rear wiper motor was seized but module was attempting to PARK the arm. Pulled upto 4amps for 10secs. Killing battery over night.
Predictability always helps! It's gonna be interesting to see what this turns out to be!
Between your vids and SMAs I've been getting a daily dose of watchable videos...
Ran across your video - Well done - I have 2016 MKX that is experience a parasitic draw as well - Thinking it is having the same issue - Telematic Control Module - I believe that module is 3G based and with the U.S. shutting down the 3G network in 2021 I am thinking that module is continually trying to connect to the network and never shutting down which would cause the drain - I know Lincoln offers a upgrade to the 4G work but is outrageously priced. Let me know thought if you think that could be it
I can imagine dealer would have replaced at least 4 module before even start measuring.Looking forward to part 2.
Thanks Ivan for sharing your knowledge and wisdom.
That is what makes a true loving human being.
Peace.
Scott.
You are a genius to diagnose this parasitic draw. Similar to looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack. You should take bets on which module(s) are the culprit.
Wow! What a mess - replaced 2 batteries already! Heading over to Part 2 now!
"They probably don't even know how to use an ammeter..." LOL!
Your detective skills have greatly improved the action plan. Great video!
I am so glad that my car has 5 modules. Older cars are superior. They can sit for months and not go dead lol.
I love your scope diagnostics because I learn so much. Thn friends wonder why I grab mine when doing elect diags.
Nice Video Ivan , NO Dealer would go this far ! lol
really Bruce? want to bet?
You do great step by step diag never forgetting to start with the basics. 👍🏾
Ivan, pretty cool! On to Part 2. Thanks for Sharing!
Sitting on this one for a bit......leaves still on the trees....(Greetings from NE PA.....)
With these PITA wakeups I wonder if it would be beneficial to have something listening to the CANBUS(es) and logging the addresses of the transmitters to track down which module is behind the problem more easily.
Reset the BMS 1st.
Looking forward to the conclusion.
Very intrigued to know what it is.
Wow man! Can I say genius! Master of your craft sir!
What is concerning me more than anything is the fact that these cars are taking multiple hours/days to diagnose. I just don't see this fitting in with the dealership business model. It isn't likely a service writer/dealership is going to commit the time, training, equipment and expertise to properly diagnose these issues. The best part, these are NEW cars. What will they be like in the future? Great vodep!
Great video!
Can you imagine what will happen by the time they are on third owner? Talking about bypassing circuits , taped up twisted wires and unmarked toggle switches everywhere 🤔
@@dharley189 Don't be silly! They aren't going to make it to their third owner.
Just acquired grandfather’s 2016 3.7L MKX, has only 12,000 miles. Put new battery, air filters etc, drove home 750 miles. Week later battery draining parked overnight. Unplugged a AAA device from port under steering column thinking that maybe cause. Now battery holding for days but on last road-trip and since last jumpstart the Nav and infotainment have gone black? Car driving fine just missing all the tech
1 min 40 seconds = 100 seconds or 100,000msec. Not a coincidence!
Hi Ivan , part 2 ASAP please, can't wait. Many thanks super interesting problem.
I wonder if it is possible to read that data that is being transferred. If so, maybe the modules ID themselves when the talk to each other. You have great troubleshooting skills, Ivan!
I can't pass up this opportunity to mention that my 07 Mercedes S550 4Matic (which is just about a base US model) has 39 modules. It does NOT drain the battery overnight, or really have a drain problem at all. Of course, Mercedes cheated slightly with this car. It has a huge group 49 battery in the trunk and all that battery does is power accessories and handle any slight drains. A smaller battery under the hood is for starting only. Still, I limped along for an entire year with a BAD trunk battery and there were no issues, even sitting for days in the cold.
Hey Ivan! Long time, no see! (MY fault). Man, that thing is CRAZY complicated. THIRTY modules!! Insanity! Imagine one of these in a flood - you'd end up burning it trying to diagnose it, LOL! 🤣Can't wait to see the cause of this one. 👍😎👍
Oh boy, this one is gonna be fun. Can’t wait for the solution. I too have a “parasitic draw” Ivan….known as a wife and kids in college…😂😂 Not as easy to replace those modules, need a NPR repair. Always a great ride my man.
MGTOW
Thanks Ivan for the video you do great work as always 👍❤️❤️❤️
Weird. Literally reading about load shedding in a chrysler book when this video popped up haha perfect timing!
IVAN, AWESOME thought process and approach brother you right on modern cars to diagnose electrical problem a SCOPE is must with out it you go no where to find the problem thanks for sharing and as always learning form the best. cheeeeeeers
Ghost in the machine. Gotta love it.
I'm about 9 mins in and wondering, if ambient temp was cold enough, one couldn't watch the fuse box with an IR camera when the amps spiked up and get an idea which fuse was heating up then see which modules were powered on that fuse. Together with your scoping the different networks might narrow it down to a single, or very few, modules really quickly
Good evening Ivan
Thanks for the new video
Someone mentioned in a comment how locking your vehicle can prevent some electrical draws, not sure if this is true. I think the commenter was talking specifically about Subaru's.
Ivan... U have forgotten what you have taught us!!! 3amp draw for 10seconds. I just timed myself!! I can test 7 fuses for a voltage in 10s!!! every 1m 47s I can test 7 more fuses!!! I would have tested all the fuses in the car before you finished reading the circuit diagram, installed pinch clips and setup the scope!!! This is what you taught us! :) LOL...
My methods are constantly evolving 😉
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics lol. in a year u will be showing the actual data being sent on the line. I would assume that data actually says "im module xyz whats up yall?" I assume the voltage drop method would be helpful here though
In this scenario, would it have been more useful to hook up a graphic DMM or something like a 1 channel scope in series with the battery to catch that 3A spike event rather than a regular DMM? It seemed like luck that Ivan was able to catch the event as it happened on the DMM. With something graphing, even if you missed it you could look back in history and see the spike.
In this case it seemed important to catch the 3A event since it gave a clue that a module was waking up and then going back to sleep. Otherwise you would only be chasing that constant 65mA draw. I'm looking forward to part 2 since it seems like there may be 2 separate issues. What is causing the 3A spike and then the "resting" 65mA draw.
Is there a tool that can graph in series current? 🤔
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I think I've seen in previous videos of yours the Snap On Vantage can graph Amperage. Or could you use an amp clamp around the negative cable and graph that way? Maybe I'm dreaming of a magical tool that doesn't exist 😆. Forgive me. I'm not a tech. I'm an accountant who is really into cars and enjoys learning new things.
@@kv2280 yes actually the old Vantage could graph current! Wish the Pico could too. Current clamps have too much drift over time, especially at the milliamps scale. Accounting and diagnostics have some key things in common like being precise with numbers and keeping careful notes 😁👍
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics yes! Eric O has used his Vantage to graph current in at least couple parasitic draw cases.
and the vantage pro does internal amps. the last great scope meter snap on made. does things newer versions can’t, and has a long long data memory, so perfect for a job like battery draw. wish somebody still made a tool like the original vantage or the vantage pro. a real time graphing multimeter is a very handy thing. i love the vantage pro so much that i finally found two of them.
My papi said son you're going to drive me to drinkin if you don't stop driving that hot rod Lincoln😁👍🇨🇦
These Lincolns definitely ain't hot rods. More like hot flash Lincoln given the age and sex of the majority of owners 😆
Ivan,
Great video and interesting case study - thank you!
Looking forward to part 2
Paul (in MA)
for monitoring these stubborn parasitic draws Ivan, you might find my GADGETS#168 interesting
Interesting gadget indeed v=BwexDcEiKz0
Just watched the #168 video... That's AMAZING! Can I buy one of your parasitic loggers? 🙂
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I do appreciate you checking it out Ivan:)
all gadgets on my channel are DIY, all build info is shared
am much too lazy to build for sale:)
Have to love all these vehicles that have loaded up to the gills options. Really just more chances and opportunities for things to go haywire. I wonder what else is in the high speed three can? Maybe it's that module under the headliner again?
Is it possible to have a modern US domestic vehicle with less than 30 modules? 😂 I think we surpassed the reliability limit a long time ago… Very interesting case study, Ivan 👍
True definition of "luxury" is when your car won't start in the morning 🤣
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics 😂
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I love it!
@@user-fn6pq9tp2g the R&D budget on aircraft is much higher, things are only fitted for a practical purpose - and they're still allowed to use "proper" solder with lead in it.
Lead free solder is one of the main causes of failure, whether it's tin whiskers or cracked joints on connectors or anything with significant thermal cycling.
The ones I see the most are Ford Focus clusters for crank no start and Fiat "Blue&Me" modules for flashing mileage and parasitic drain.
Dealer would they do anything about? Probably don’t know how to use an amp meter. 😂😂😂 good one Ivan.
Ivan you scared me when you mentioned there are 30 modules on board. Cant wait to see part 2. I am gonna say its the Entertainment system?? Haha
Thank you sir. I have a mkx with draw issue.
Is it possible to narrow down the cause quicker by looking at the fuse boxes through an infrared camera? Surely the circuits that are drawing a lot of current will be obvious when contrasted with the sleeping circuits?
Once a network wakes up, many modules start talking so a lot of fuses will be "hot" 😁
I had a customer complain that their Cadillac randomly drains its battery. I put an amp clamp on it, went to sleep fine, few mA draw. So I go back to my truck to get a new battery and hear a noise coming from the Cady. I've got the key out, doors locked, and the radio is playing.
If it was me, I'd be reaching for the thermal camera. I'm sure that's enough power to show up.
I have a 2009 mks when the temperature outside raises or my defrost is on my electrical components such as my radio/navigation and climate controls go out. it also tells me that all of my doors are open. I’ve checked battery fuses altanater im lost as to what i need to check next
Would thermal camera at the fuse boxes lead to the culprit network?
Unlikely...
I'm just asking. Does the thing going wrong stay on long enough to heat up? Could you have pinpoint the problem with a infrared camera in this case?
How about a CD changer powering up, stowed in the rear storage bay of that vehicle???
Faulty alternator, Corrosion , Poor ground, Power Trunk Module... what modules are on the High speed 3 can bus ?
Great video Ivan!!! Super interesting.
I recently bought a scope for can wiring diagnosis I just wonder where do you hook up your leads to? Most can networks have + and -, does it matter which one you hook up to?
Using the SWAG method I would guess anti-theft circuit. Like door locks , what is suppose to help causes the owner the most grief.
SWAG?
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Scientific Wild Ass Guess
@@baldy95307 Yes, usually followed by FUBAR. ("F"'ed up beyond all recognition)
I hate intermittent draws, not too bad when it will act up but when they come in and there’s no draw, most frustrating thing in the world.
I had a Hyundai Sonata that had a parasitic draw. I had a board clamped over the door switch to check the inside fuses. Found nothing. Pulled the board and the switch was the draw. Replaced it. Happened again. Replaced the switch again, nothing fixed. Had to go to the dealer for a safety recall and asked them to look at it. They brought over a body repair guy. Turns out the door metal was so thing, a seat belt could dent the door so the switch couldn't reach the door. He quoted me a price to repair the door, but said it would happen again. Suggested inserting washers behind the door pillar and the switch. Ground out part of the washer to fit over the wires. Problem fixed. Unfortunately not mush farther into the fortune, it got slammed in the rear and got totalled.
Looking over your shoulder, I see the XL-7, the Mystique, and the MPV. It sure does look like that Probe you featured for the Halloween Special is parked up there as well. Are you going to be doing work on it in the future? Would be interesting!
This was filmed before the Probe Halloween Special lol
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I started to say, I thought you got rid of that pile long ago.
I thought Ivan was becoming a Probe Specialist. Actually that sounds kind of weird. That could easily be misinterpreted. Though, those customers could be very interesting. And the case studies would be really interesting. Part 1 - Look what I found. Part 2 - How did that get in there.
Ford Probe jokes. Glad I could use them again. I thought they were gone forever.
Is it possible to read the activity? On a common network each module must have a unique identifier.
I guess if you can decode the signal 👍
Ivan: What is the hardware and software you use for the oscilloscope on your computer. Very cool! Love your videos! Keep it up!!!
The gift that keeps on taking.😢
Break out the thermal camera in the fuse box.
You would probably see quite a few fuses heating up... Then what is the next step?
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Yes, that might be true but it's worth a look, maybe it would yield a clue. Maybe pulling those fuses one by one might yield more.
@@rmr5740 remember that pulling fuses on a modern car costs a LOT of time and can have unintended consequences because all the modules are interconnected. Strategy here is to use non intrusive testing and hopefully pull just one fuse to solve the problem 🙂
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Something is using 30+ watts, maybe looking at modules on that bus with an infrared thermometer would tell you which one.
@@rmr5740 perhaps! But the modules are usually hidden behind consoles and trim...that always makes the hunt fun haha
Looks a new model to be giving trouble. Isolating the networks has done the business. Very time consuming exercise but seems to be showing results. 3 amps is a bit over the top. Too troublesome for a dealer, especially with the extended timeframe involved. You'll soon be crowned 👑 of the parasitic draw division.
Unable to find a wiring diagram for my Lincoln continental 2017 are there other models that are similar or can someone help me with an idea
The one I’m working on is the hybrid MKZ It’s got a 600mA current draw. I’m good with electronics and stuff. I am just not familiar with a cars communication. All I know is it uses CAN. As far as high speed low speed etc I am lost why it would use different speed for communication
Just depends on required volume and speed of data transmission. Not really an important detail. But you DO need a 4-channel oscilloscope to monitor the network activity to see if someone is "waking up" the entire network :)
My 2017 MKZ when I first got it, had an ACM firmware issue which caused the module to never sleep correctly. It will kill batteries. Pretty known issue across Fusion/Fusion Sport and MKZ. I'm not sure about MKX. All those modules are tough on batteries, especially cold.
Just curious is the security system on the high-speed Network almost like it's trying to set the security system or something a very interesting
Ivan,
I noticed you did not use a BOB at the diag connecter. Did you have any concerns?
BOB draws some current... Didn't want the extra variable lol
Excellent!! Can't wait for part 2. Thank you
When I've had very intermittent faults on TVs & audio in the past, I point a camcorder at the screen and leave it recording on lower quality mode. Might work for initial stages of something like this.
Oh no, I hope that isn't the same Probe from Halloween I see in the background. Though, what are the chances it's a different one. If it is a different one, Ivan must have seen a business opportunity specializing in 25 year old Ford Probes that surprisingly no one else saw.
Hello Ivan, did you train as an automotive electronics engineer ? Best wishes.
HS3 has mostly audio and user interface devices, including instrument cluster and telemetrics. I'm gonna throw a wild guess at either the cd player or FDIM. lol
I'm guessing a stuck wiper motor trying to park. 😁
@@murkywaters7185 like the 68 Corvette? 😁
Is the clock doing anything to draw?