I think you're right it's pretty surprising of JRRT, but not, I think, in the case of his son. Early on, during the compilation and creation of what would be published as _The Silmarillion,_ CT seems to have played looser with the legendarium. However, even then I think it would have been very out of character for him to just make up a factoid from _nothing_ in his father's writings. Particularly one so trivial and of no likely relation to the contents of _The Silmarillion._ Later on, he was so regretful about the doctoring he did do, that the notion seems completely antithetical to his whole approach.
@@tiltskillet7085 This 100%. Christopher made very minimal additions to the legendarium (only where he believed it was absolutely necessary to maintain a cohesive story), and even those additions he still wasn't proud of. Him making up Legolas' age would've been out of character.
@@andrewhead1840 If you google "chris tolkien changes to silmarillion" you'll come up with some good discussions about it. The best (although imperfect) source I know of besides combing through volumes 10-12 of HOME is a book called _Arda Reconstructed_. According to this, probably the most dramatic insertions CT made are the origin of the Nauglamir and some amount of the material in the chapter "The Ruin of Doriath". CT admits as much in HOME, but I don't know that the extent is fully settled.
Pretty crazy this video made me realize how fleshed out all the other Tolkien elves are like Felagund and Fingolfin, yet the most central elf to the main narrative is an enigma. Tolkien probably wanted us to speculate about Legolas’ back story based on the information we have about his ancestors in the Silmarillion
@@higginswalsan Could be - however there is no doubt that Legolas _qua Legolas_ in LoTR is not a main character. Other Elves do much more - Galadriel and Elrond, and the actions and stories of both are also consistent with the 'fading' theme.
Not that this settles the question, but it's very interesting: _"Legolas probably achieved least of the Nine Walkers."_ - JRRT, in excerpted commentary on "The Istari" in UT. Personally I'd call Legolas a side character, but still the most prominent Elf, narratively speaking. (Not in terms of impact on events. I think that would be Elrond if we stick to those who are in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age. Otherwise Celebrimbor, I guess.)
Another possible clue might come from Fellowship of the Ring. Legolas mentions how he has had no personal contact with the elves of Lorien, yet we know the elves of Greenwood were living in Amon Lanc during the 2nd Age, just across from Lorien, so would have had close contact at the time, and even after Amon Lanc was abandoned, the Greenwood elves still resided in the South of the forest, near Lorien. It wasn't until 1000 of the 3rd Age that Thranduil moved his folk to the north-easternmost part of the forest, sundering from Lorien entirely. So I would place Legolas' birth sometime around 1000-1100 of the 3rd age. Its also possible that Thranduil postponed siring a child until after he became king, when Oropher was killed.
Hi Darth! I like the idea of Legolas being relatively young by elf standards because it would put him closer in power and experience to Aragorn and Gimli. And if he lived in Murkwood most of his life, it's also why he's not incredibly knowledgeable about the outside world, and thus why he wasn't Mr. Exposition 2.0 whenever Gandalf wasn't around.
As far as I know, elves (generally) do not have children during periods of war and troubles. And Tolkien says that "a shadow falls on Greenwood, and men begin to call it Mirkwood" around 1050 of Third Age. So I think Legolas almost certainly was born earlier then that.
I was thinking much the same thing. Thranduil's first duty in the 3rd Age was probably consolidation of the realm after the disastrous losses they suffered in the War.
I personally love the idea that he's actually only around 70 years old because he's never mentioned in the Hobbit and all the talk about "you children" is coming from an insecure elven teenager
I agree with all your points. But also let's remember that, when in Moria, Legolas perceives the Balrog, and the text describes how he's really, really terrified. I don't think that necessarily implies that Legolas was born in the First Age (In my opinion, his terror was similar to the terror you would feel if you find the real Boogeyman in your house), but I think, just for the sake of argument, that someone could argue that Legolas has memories from very old times, because Balrogs were seldom seen after the First Age.
I know that the first numenorean king was a half-elf who chose the fate of men, but the Reunited Kingdom having a green elf as consort king seems odd. I do encourage those fanfictions too, though. Edit: came to edit because I forgot the word green, which I added, and then realized that Legolas descended from elves that inhabitated one of the great kingdoms of the First Age, so all I said is invalid, and he would be just male Arwen. Still, my encouragement remains.
It’s likely Arwen was among the youngest generation of the Elves. It seems unlikely that elves knowing their time in middle earth was drawings to a close would choose to bear children but since some elves didn’t seem in a hurry to depart until a while into the 4th age, there’s a chance at least one elven child witnessed the war of the ring.
Possibly in Mirkwood. The Silvan Elves were far more reluctant to leave Middle-earth than the Noldor and the Sindar. Given Lothlorien, Rivendell, and Lindon were abandoned fairly early in the Fourth Age, I doubt there were any children there. I think if any Elves were wanting to have children around that time, they would've held off until they left to Valinor.
Thranduil was deeply traumatised by the battle of Dagorlad and went into retreat afterwards. Naturally I would assume that he would father a child at the best of times, and that would have been up to the War of Elves and Sauron. But I think your guess fits better, unless we assume Legolas could but did not participate in the War of the Last Alliance.
Considering that Oropher and Thraduil wanted to live as Silvan Elves, I think it is quite possible that either the mother or the grandmother of Legolas (or both) were from Silvan Elves. Also, another possibility is that they were not Silvan and not Sindar but actually Nandor (the Green Elves of Beleriand). We do not know a lot about Nandor after the First Age, but it seems quite likely that some of them migrated eastward and joined with their kin in Mirkwood and Lorien.
I think Legolas was born either slightly before the war of the last alliance or slightly after it, since if he was old enough to fight I’m pretty sure he would have joined Thrabduil and orofere since it doesn’t seem likely that they’d leave him behind to rule a kingdom in their stead. The elves usually all go to war when war is waged, like Fingolfin and his sons and Feanor and his sons and Grabdson
Tolkien after he wrote LOTR went back and fixed the Hobbit (Riddles in the Dark) to conform to LOTr a little better. Surprised he never inserted Legolas as well. I always thought that Legolas would have been born within a 100 years after the War of the Last Alliance when there was a need to replenish their numbers and space. There is no mention of any other siblings.
Something I find interesting about Legolas is that he is Thranduil's son but was seemingly permitted to join the Fellowship without the foreknowledge of or permission from Thranduil. I find this would be highly irregular if Legolas was the *eldest son* (or in other words, the Heir to the Throne). While I don't doubt that Elven Heirs would not be necessarily restricted from participating in dangerous missions, I do find it weird that Thranduil would send his actual Heir as a simple messenger to Elrond and Gandalf but then be ok with said Heir not returning from that journey without his permission. So, I'm guessing Legolas was the second born son of Thranduil rather than the first.
But if he's the *only* heir and Thranduil wanted to be represented by said heir, then he'd have to send Legolas. Legolas might simply have chosen not to ask permission, then he's not so much been permitted as not bothered to check. Besides, Denethor may not have been King but he was in a similar position and sent his heir who then joined the fellowship...without asking permission.
Thranduil was at the Battle of Dagorland, but Legolas when down south doesn't make mention of having been down Gondor way before, thus we can conclude that one of three options is true: 1. Legolas was of fighting age SA3434 but did not accompany his father and grandfather to war. 2. Legolas was born prior to SA3434 but was still a child. 3. Legolas was born after SA3434. Now, 1 isn't impossible but looks less likely (decisive clash with Sauron, so would want all the Elf-power you can spare...). So, born late second or early third age looks most plausible.
He recognized the balrog as such by sight or by reputation. That makes him old enough to remember the wars of beleriand, or to hear about them from veterans.
It is quite likely that the birth of Legolas occurred in the early years of the Third Age. If the Sindar Elves had the same traditions of the Noldor, they did not marry and have children during war times. The Second Age was a dark period and culminated in the War of the Last Alliance in which Thranduil fought.
Reading the comments here confirms my own (admittedly vague) calculations: he was between 1500 and 2000 years old at the time of the events of the Fellowship of the Ring.
I always remember the LOTR top trumps which came out when the films were in the cinema and I distinctly recall that Legolas was 7000 years old and Elrond was 6500 years old 😅
During the trip through Moria, Gandalf did not know what creature he had encountered until Legolas recognized it as a Balrog, a creature of the First Age. It could be he recognized the creature from stories he had heard, but it could also be that he had actually seen one.
I am going to dispute something said early in this video: we don't know Gandalf's age either, and he likely isn't as old as time itself, given that we know that Eä already existed when some ainur entered it (e.g. Tom Bombadil and the nameless things predate Sauron, and I would say likely Gandalf as well).
I most frankly do not like this "mathematicisation" Tolkien did put Middle Earth through in his notes. I think those are questions better left unanswered. It makes his mythological world less mythological and more mundane and "scientific".
He might just be making an educated guess based on stories, but Aragorn and even Frodo should know those same stories and aren’t making any taxonomical observations from them.
@@chables74 Yeah but his father and grandfather, and their Sindar companions, were all survivors of the War of Wrath. There's a difference between vague descriptions in ancient legends from six thousand years ago (for Aragorn and Frodo) and hearing the tales direct from an actual Beleriand veteran. And there's the fact Elves can see into the spirit realm - Balrogs might have a very distinctive aura on that plane of existence that every Elf child of Beleriandic heritage is taught
This reminds me of the convo: *70 years before the LOTR trilogy. "What is this hideous creature? Some sort of Goblin mutant?" "That's ma wee lad, Gimli!"
To age an elf, you cut their ears off and count the rings.
[Sauron liked your comment]
Cirdan must have had massive ears.
This kills the elf
It always perplexed me Tolkien never gave him an age, we can make a good guess but I'm surprised Christopher never gave him an age either.
I think you're right it's pretty surprising of JRRT, but not, I think, in the case of his son. Early on, during the compilation and creation of what would be published as _The Silmarillion,_ CT seems to have played looser with the legendarium. However, even then I think it would have been very out of character for him to just make up a factoid from _nothing_ in his father's writings. Particularly one so trivial and of no likely relation to the contents of _The Silmarillion._ Later on, he was so regretful about the doctoring he did do, that the notion seems completely antithetical to his whole approach.
@@tiltskillet7085 This 100%. Christopher made very minimal additions to the legendarium (only where he believed it was absolutely necessary to maintain a cohesive story), and even those additions he still wasn't proud of. Him making up Legolas' age would've been out of character.
What additions did Christopher Tolkien actually make? Is there a list somewhere? It’ll be good to isolate and know exactly what he added.
@@andrewhead1840 If you google "chris tolkien changes to silmarillion" you'll come up with some good discussions about it. The best (although imperfect) source I know of besides combing through volumes 10-12 of HOME is a book called _Arda Reconstructed_. According to this, probably the most dramatic insertions CT made are the origin of the Nauglamir and some amount of the material in the chapter "The Ruin of Doriath". CT admits as much in HOME, but I don't know that the extent is fully settled.
Pretty crazy this video made me realize how fleshed out all the other Tolkien elves are like Felagund and Fingolfin, yet the most central elf to the main narrative is an enigma. Tolkien probably wanted us to speculate about Legolas’ back story based on the information we have about his ancestors in the Silmarillion
I wouldn't call Legolas "central to the main narrative". He doesn't actually "do" much in the story, unlike the Elves of the First (and Second) Age.
@@dlevi67perhaps it’s the opposite: Tolkien gave us little details about the elf most active in LotR to show their lessening importance
@@higginswalsan Could be - however there is no doubt that Legolas _qua Legolas_ in LoTR is not a main character. Other Elves do much more - Galadriel and Elrond, and the actions and stories of both are also consistent with the 'fading' theme.
Not that this settles the question, but it's very interesting: _"Legolas probably achieved least of the Nine Walkers."_ - JRRT, in excerpted commentary on "The Istari" in UT.
Personally I'd call Legolas a side character, but still the most prominent Elf, narratively speaking. (Not in terms of impact on events. I think that would be Elrond if we stick to those who are in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age. Otherwise Celebrimbor, I guess.)
@@tiltskillet7085 Well, Feanor made a nice mess before his grand-child had a go at it...
Another possible clue might come from Fellowship of the Ring. Legolas mentions how he has had no personal contact with the elves of Lorien, yet we know the elves of Greenwood were living in Amon Lanc during the 2nd Age, just across from Lorien, so would have had close contact at the time, and even after Amon Lanc was abandoned, the Greenwood elves still resided in the South of the forest, near Lorien. It wasn't until 1000 of the 3rd Age that Thranduil moved his folk to the north-easternmost part of the forest, sundering from Lorien entirely. So I would place Legolas' birth sometime around 1000-1100 of the 3rd age. Its also possible that Thranduil postponed siring a child until after he became king, when Oropher was killed.
This is a good point.
Hi Darth!
I like the idea of Legolas being relatively young by elf standards because it would put him closer in power and experience to Aragorn and Gimli. And if he lived in Murkwood most of his life, it's also why he's not incredibly knowledgeable about the outside world, and thus why he wasn't Mr. Exposition 2.0 whenever Gandalf wasn't around.
As far as I know, elves (generally) do not have children during periods of war and troubles. And Tolkien says that "a shadow falls on Greenwood, and men begin to call it Mirkwood" around 1050 of Third Age. So I think Legolas almost certainly was born earlier then that.
I was thinking much the same thing. Thranduil's first duty in the 3rd Age was probably consolidation of the realm after the disastrous losses they suffered in the War.
I personally love the idea that he's actually only around 70 years old because he's never mentioned in the Hobbit and all the talk about "you children" is coming from an insecure elven teenager
It feel like he’s not the oldest son or heir, though
I think your early 3rd-Age birth for Legolas makes the most sense given what we do know about Legolas and his overall behavior.
Legolas is the most vague of the fellowship because it represents the elves in general are leaving middle earth, he has the least to do.
Man, I am really surprised how much new topics you cover
For quite some time you are the best Tolkien channel
Keep up the good work!
I agree with all your points. But also let's remember that, when in Moria, Legolas perceives the Balrog, and the text describes how he's really, really terrified. I don't think that necessarily implies that Legolas was born in the First Age (In my opinion, his terror was similar to the terror you would feel if you find the real Boogeyman in your house), but I think, just for the sake of argument, that someone could argue that Legolas has memories from very old times, because Balrogs were seldom seen after the First Age.
I know that the first numenorean king was a half-elf who chose the fate of men, but the Reunited Kingdom having a green elf as consort king seems odd. I do encourage those fanfictions too, though.
Edit: came to edit because I forgot the word green, which I added, and then realized that Legolas descended from elves that inhabitated one of the great kingdoms of the First Age, so all I said is invalid, and he would be just male Arwen. Still, my encouragement remains.
Never ask an elf his age. Never ask a dwarf his gold amount. Never ask a Wizard his staff's size
Were there any elven children during the War of the ring? Or when might have the youngest generation of elves been born?
It’s likely Arwen was among the youngest generation of the Elves. It seems unlikely that elves knowing their time in middle earth was drawings to a close would choose to bear children but since some elves didn’t seem in a hurry to depart until a while into the 4th age, there’s a chance at least one elven child witnessed the war of the ring.
Possibly in Mirkwood. The Silvan Elves were far more reluctant to leave Middle-earth than the Noldor and the Sindar. Given Lothlorien, Rivendell, and Lindon were abandoned fairly early in the Fourth Age, I doubt there were any children there. I think if any Elves were wanting to have children around that time, they would've held off until they left to Valinor.
Thranduil was deeply traumatised by the battle of Dagorlad and went into retreat afterwards. Naturally I would assume that he would father a child at the best of times, and that would have been up to the War of Elves and Sauron. But I think your guess fits better, unless we assume Legolas could but did not participate in the War of the Last Alliance.
Is Legolas a pure Sindar elf or did Thranduil get freaky with a dirty Silvan elf girl?
😂😂😂
Unfortunately, Thranduil's wife goes the way of many other wives in Tolkien's legendarium, so basically she may as well not exist.
Considering that Oropher and Thraduil wanted to live as Silvan Elves, I think it is quite possible that either the mother or the grandmother of Legolas (or both) were from Silvan Elves.
Also, another possibility is that they were not Silvan and not Sindar but actually Nandor (the Green Elves of Beleriand). We do not know a lot about Nandor after the First Age, but it seems quite likely that some of them migrated eastward and joined with their kin in Mirkwood and Lorien.
Considering that he identifies as Silvan, it does seem likely that he's part Silvan
@@DarthGandalfYT So Thranduil reproduced by budding got it
I think Legolas was born either slightly before the war of the last alliance or slightly after it, since if he was old enough to fight I’m pretty sure he would have joined Thrabduil and orofere since it doesn’t seem likely that they’d leave him behind to rule a kingdom in their stead. The elves usually all go to war when war is waged, like Fingolfin and his sons and Feanor and his sons and Grabdson
this channel is underrated
Tolkien after he wrote LOTR went back and fixed the Hobbit (Riddles in the Dark) to conform to LOTr a little better. Surprised he never inserted Legolas as well. I always thought that Legolas would have been born within a 100 years after the War of the Last Alliance when there was a need to replenish their numbers and space. There is no mention of any other siblings.
Something I find interesting about Legolas is that he is Thranduil's son but was seemingly permitted to join the Fellowship without the foreknowledge of or permission from Thranduil. I find this would be highly irregular if Legolas was the *eldest son* (or in other words, the Heir to the Throne). While I don't doubt that Elven Heirs would not be necessarily restricted from participating in dangerous missions, I do find it weird that Thranduil would send his actual Heir as a simple messenger to Elrond and Gandalf but then be ok with said Heir not returning from that journey without his permission.
So, I'm guessing Legolas was the second born son of Thranduil rather than the first.
But if he's the *only* heir and Thranduil wanted to be represented by said heir, then he'd have to send Legolas. Legolas might simply have chosen not to ask permission, then he's not so much been permitted as not bothered to check.
Besides, Denethor may not have been King but he was in a similar position and sent his heir who then joined the fellowship...without asking permission.
A great Middle Earth mystery is why do elves have pointy ears.
Thranduil was at the Battle of Dagorland, but Legolas when down south doesn't make mention of having been down Gondor way before, thus we can conclude that one of three options is true:
1. Legolas was of fighting age SA3434 but did not accompany his father and grandfather to war.
2. Legolas was born prior to SA3434 but was still a child.
3. Legolas was born after SA3434.
Now, 1 isn't impossible but looks less likely (decisive clash with Sauron, so would want all the Elf-power you can spare...). So, born late second or early third age looks most plausible.
He recognized the balrog as such by sight or by reputation. That makes him old enough to remember the wars of beleriand, or to hear about them from veterans.
“Do you realize how little that narrows it down?”
That barely helps…
Um... "Middle Earth Mysteries". If we knew, this video wouldn't exist
I mean, there were elves in Middle-earth who had seen a Balrog possibly all the way into the Fourth Age.
Thranduil may well have seen a Balrog during the War of Wrath for all we know and told Legolas about it.
In one of the earlier versions of the fall of Gondolin, Legolas helps elves escape from the city
That's actually a different character with the same name.
@@istari0 Or maybe the same character re-born, if the idea of elven reincarnation is true (Tolkien later abandoned it, though).
Cool idea for a video!
Damn! I had to replay that first sentence 3 times. 😅 He's quite the enigma lol
Yeah, I probably should've been a bit louder with the "e".
@@DarthGandalfYT No not at all its just my funny ears. Your presentations are great. It just gave me a lil chuckle but only in jest 🙂
Love your contact brother and was just kidding around.
It is quite likely that the birth of Legolas occurred in the early years of the Third Age. If the Sindar Elves had the same traditions of the Noldor, they did not marry and have children during war times. The Second Age was a dark period and culminated in the War of the Last Alliance in which Thranduil fought.
Reading the comments here confirms my own (admittedly vague) calculations: he was between 1500 and 2000 years old at the time of the events of the Fellowship of the Ring.
This was fun. Thanks 🧝♂️
I always remember the LOTR top trumps which came out when the films were in the cinema and I distinctly recall that Legolas was 7000 years old and Elrond was 6500 years old 😅
Could you make a video about the cosmology of arda, like ekkaia, ilurambar, the walls of night etc
During the trip through Moria, Gandalf did not know what creature he had encountered until Legolas recognized it as a Balrog, a creature of the First Age. It could be he recognized the creature from stories he had heard, but it could also be that he had actually seen one.
Being a fallen Maiar, a Balrog might be something an elf recognizes by 'mystical instinct' much like the Call to Valinor that he hears later.
Not first but third viewer! Love your content Darth.
Who says Thranduil's dad wasn't one of the original elves? Dude could have been born early first age making Legolas over 5000 years old.
Thanks for the content cheers
Perfect timing 😏
I don't care about the Aragorn and Legolas ship, I'm too busy with the Turin and Beleg ship, thanks
He’s a baby baby.
I am going to dispute something said early in this video: we don't know Gandalf's age either, and he likely isn't as old as time itself, given that we know that Eä already existed when some ainur entered it (e.g. Tom Bombadil and the nameless things predate Sauron, and I would say likely Gandalf as well).
But Gandalf existed BEFORE that didn't he? All Maiar and Valar were part of the singing weren't they?
Legolas was canonically 5.
I most frankly do not like this "mathematicisation" Tolkien did put Middle Earth through in his notes. I think those are questions better left unanswered. It makes his mythological world less mythological and more mundane and "scientific".
He does seem to recognize the balrog by sight, which could imply a 1st age birth.
He might just be making an educated guess based on stories, but Aragorn and even Frodo should know those same stories and aren’t making any taxonomical observations from them.
Not really.
I imagine Balrogs and what they looked like were well documented in Elven lore.
@@chables74 Yeah but his father and grandfather, and their Sindar companions, were all survivors of the War of Wrath. There's a difference between vague descriptions in ancient legends from six thousand years ago (for Aragorn and Frodo) and hearing the tales direct from an actual Beleriand veteran. And there's the fact Elves can see into the spirit realm - Balrogs might have a very distinctive aura on that plane of existence that every Elf child of Beleriandic heritage is taught
But he's an elves bro😓
This reminds me of the convo:
*70 years before the LOTR trilogy.
"What is this hideous creature? Some sort of Goblin mutant?"
"That's ma wee lad, Gimli!"
HALLO :D