Another reason for Skill Checks is so that there's some kind of ramp to improve on. If there's a 15% chance of detecting a trap on a door, and you know that next level you will have a 20% chance of detecting a trap on a door, then you can go, "You know what, I'm going to get better with time, I'm going to improve this character, if they can just survive long enough..." If you don't have skill checks, though, it's just -- "Hm, I wonder if the DM will decide that I can do this, this time." Having a fixed percentage (whether represented through a D100, D20, or some other kind of dice representation) means that you can see objectively how your character is developing.
Cool. Dungeon World does it this way. But it uses failure / success with cost / success for EVERYTHING, including combat, so it gets exhausting thinking about compromises and costs. But with just skill checks in D&D, I think I'd enjoy this.
That was indeed not a good idea to hang a whole system on. Also, probably in the interest of generating tension, hence driving the narrative, the probabilities are in favor of success with cost over success, which is nice if you only roll sometimes, but not if you play in the D&D style.
Yeah, it's exhausting and tedious if a combat encounter consists of 30 or 40 dice rolls, as you're going around giving each character and NPC a turn over multiple turns. That's not how you're supposed to do combat in Dungeon World though.
Before late 2000s, rpg dice was rare and expensive here in Brazil. I learned on a homebrew 2d6 system, only four atributes (Str, Dex, Cha, Int) and few classes. We used a variant of the reaction table for everything. There was zines with adventures, items, monsters and more using 2d6 and d66 tables. I think 2d6 homebrews were the standard in developing world before 2000s, because of how expensive and hard it was to get books and dice.
@@smugzoid5156 Traveller inspired many games here. I think 2d6 is about right crunchiness for homebrews. 1d6 is a little to simple, especially for campaigns. 3d6 or more is slower and more complex. Two d6s can be obtained from any board game. It's incredible how I was taught the homebrew, made a character and start playing in less than 20 minutes. Very old school at that.
Brilliant video, thank you. I will try 2d6. The probability bell curve on multiple dice is so important, I believe Gary Gygax put a discussion of probability into the 1e DMG!
Nice system that is ideal for quick gameplay with predictable odds, though a roll under system has many advantages, you can include exploding die, with that you can have higher target numbers, this provides more flexibility than rolling under. None the less a good simple system.
" Counter intuitive to the human psyche, .." Which means .. unnerving .. Which in .. Horror games .. my gaming group goes with roll under during .. stressful .. moment to create dramatic tension. Or at least create mental stress tension trying to figure out what is going on. But we also run Call of Cthulhu/Ravenloft system campaigns using Whitewolf/World of Darkness: Vampire mix with D&D. So tension leading into horror is common.
I agree. It also gives more to the story instead of "you pass the check and the girl is charmed." Instead you can have on a roll of 7 "The girl is charmed, but she insist you must not wear metal armor, just leather, because metal is bad for the environment"
Yes I want to use this but using a d20 instead for now, to sneak it in on the group they hopefully won't notice much of a change. I get push back when using d6s for some reason.
Some folks think the d6 is too pedestrian. Like it isn't D&D unless you use a bunch of strange dice or something. I like to use d6 dice (I got some huge ones for the gaming table) because you can easily add them mentally.
Yes I also think it's human prejudice. They're in the d20 comfort zone. D6's just don't feel right. Even if the odds work out better a d20 just "feels" right. From day one of my play experience with 1st Ed we used d20 checks. As a DM in 2nd I also kept that up.
@@WayneBraack i have been using 2d6 in my last three sessions. Honestly, the players seem to like/understand it better. I'm currently running a white lies campaign using it. And made "8" the middle instead of "7" to make skill checks more challenging.
1:40 It's tangential to the point of the video, but I always just convert roll-under into roll-over when I run games. For example, in the 1d6 skill system, instead of saying that you need to roll under your skill I just tell players that the target number is 7. Mathematically it functions the same but it's a lot easier for many people to grasp.
whenever it's a matter of rolling under, i have to take a deep breath to adjust my brain. the roll feels like a roll against oneself, against one's own ability with a minus one penalty to that ability. on the other hand, when i think of 2d6 rolls, i think of a meaningful bell curve, and a clear target number.
Im so happy i found this video. I just love talking and hearing about RPG Design :D. Oh and im really surprised that you find rolling lower so counter intuitive. I mean its the default for basically any d100 system. (Warhammer / Call of Cuthulhu /...) And i also made the observation that people understand rolling lower easier because A) they naturally understand what having a 40% chance of success means (rolling lower or equal then 4(0) with D10(0)) and B) because the GM can add all the modifiers together and just present a threshold which needs to be rolled under.
I think it is easy... but my once a month warriors get it confused all the time that i had to switch it. Of course I'm more immersed in the back end of planning, prepping and building, as opposed them (they just show up with dice, drinks, food).
Here's a link to another good video about using 2d6 for skills, rolling high, not low, with interesting options for modifiers: ua-cam.com/video/keRug6gMzmo/v-deo.html You might also check out the old Shadowrun/Star Wars rpg, which was entirely d6 based. Each 6 rolled allowed a re-roll which was added to the result, so a high difficulty could be beaten by a low skill sometimes.
I actually commented on that video, i guess he and i were creating around the same time, it came up in my feed atound same time i made mine. Have ypu seen my white star videos? Or eldritch tale one shot 2d6?
@@MemphiStig here os the first part, i broke it up on 5 segments to explain from game set up to closure. The game is a 1 hour 50 minute play. At the end of the each video is the link to the next video if you want to speed through. ua-cam.com/video/U1Pekn9nu6s/v-deo.html
That will work, except for 2 caveats: 1) it would offer/pose possible two many variations of results. For example if a player has a 13 str, and rolls a 9 how much different would that be fron an 8 or 7. With the 2d6 method there is only 5 stages (horrible fail, fail, pass with a twist, pass, pass with bonus). 2) the issue i have with roll under methods are player confusion. With the 2d6 roll up, this is circumnavigated.
There is no one true way of course, but the (general) point about OSR and "why use skill checks" is missing the point entirely. It is conflating a (general) disliking of *skills*, with that of *skill checks*. Every OSR game has checks, and even the accompanying screenshotted examples failed to show any skills. To be consistent with this erroneous view of 'skill checks', would require a system without any mechanical resolution system, that is after all what a check ultimately is.
I agree that my video isn't specifically about "Skills" such as what is seen in Eldritch Tales ua-cam.com/video/zPEIHAZqFPM/v-deo.html or White Star ua-cam.com/video/kQyd7LQCjOM/v-deo.html But general resolutions that occur during the game, involving the 6 major stats.
Well, there are several schools of thought on this topic. My players love the dice roll as arbitrator of events. I believe they feel it keeps my adjudication of results slightly independent of my narrative, so I'm not railroading the adventure.
Great question. As an OSRian, i change things up between games. When it comes to skill checks. Simple d6 Adding d6 2d6 D20 roll under 3d6 roll under I find it interesting to switch it up and compare how it effects the game flow.
Great question.... You could use 3d6, with 5 tiers, however adding dice would be slower. 2d6 is maybe visually faster to calculate, and your bonus of +1 or +2 would be more significant than if you use 3d6. But you could use it and adjust the scale accordingly.
@@smugzoid5156 I just had been introduced to 3d6 first. But I came into D&D with 3rd edition, when 1d20 was standard. So the 3d6 had the advantage of having a result between 3 and 18, which is very close to the 1 to 20 range. And after all, 3d6 still uses a bell curve, and a smoother curve than 2d6. So I mainly ask because you said that 2d6 has a certain advantage over single-dice rolls. But your notes also listed 3d6 alongside 1d6 and 1d20. Which didn't seem correct. Because 3d6 would have the same kinds of advantages over 1d6 or 1d20 (or 1d10) as the 2d6 does.
@@twi3031 i think i was just referring to my other videos talking about using 1d6, 3d6 and 1d20. The same can be accomplished with 3d6 but i wouldn't use 3d6 roll under if a player's stat is an 18. It would be almost impossible for them to fail.
Why 2d6? Why not?... Why skill checks? Why not? Dice ONLY produce numerical randoms and the more dice, the more times you can roll duplicate results. a D20 offers 20 results. 2d6 only offers 11 results because you can't roll a 1. 3d6 removes 2 results. A d12 retains all 12 results. But single dice don't have bell curves. It's about the bell curves. As for skills, well every skill is matched with an attribute. You CAN just roll the attribute, but it doesn't allow for varied skill levels. Some want to allow for skill levels.
@@smugzoid5156 No link for the 3d6, as that's an alt rule in Unearthed Arcana for DnD 3.x. The skill list can be found in the d20srd site (first google suggestion). Not sure how to make it a link.
Another reason for Skill Checks is so that there's some kind of ramp to improve on. If there's a 15% chance of detecting a trap on a door, and you know that next level you will have a 20% chance of detecting a trap on a door, then you can go, "You know what, I'm going to get better with time, I'm going to improve this character, if they can just survive long enough..." If you don't have skill checks, though, it's just -- "Hm, I wonder if the DM will decide that I can do this, this time." Having a fixed percentage (whether represented through a D100, D20, or some other kind of dice representation) means that you can see objectively how your character is developing.
Very very true
Excellent points!
Cool. Dungeon World does it this way. But it uses failure / success with cost / success for EVERYTHING, including combat, so it gets exhausting thinking about compromises and costs. But with just skill checks in D&D, I think I'd enjoy this.
That would get tedious. Give 2d6 a shot for skill checks, it was quite enjoyable and it forced a little improvisation with a 7 roll.
That was indeed not a good idea to hang a whole system on. Also, probably in the interest of generating tension, hence driving the narrative, the probabilities are in favor of success with cost over success, which is nice if you only roll sometimes, but not if you play in the D&D style.
Yeah, it's exhausting and tedious if a combat encounter consists of 30 or 40 dice rolls, as you're going around giving each character and NPC a turn over multiple turns. That's not how you're supposed to do combat in Dungeon World though.
Before late 2000s, rpg dice was rare and expensive here in Brazil. I learned on a homebrew 2d6 system, only four atributes (Str, Dex, Cha, Int) and few classes. We used a variant of the reaction table for everything. There was zines with adventures, items, monsters and more using 2d6 and d66 tables. I think 2d6 homebrews were the standard in developing world before 2000s, because of how expensive and hard it was to get books and dice.
That is interesting. My group just started trying out traveller, which is all 2d6. Works fine for almost anything
@@smugzoid5156 Traveller inspired many games here. I think 2d6 is about right crunchiness for homebrews. 1d6 is a little to simple, especially for campaigns. 3d6 or more is slower and more complex. Two d6s can be obtained from any board game. It's incredible how I was taught the homebrew, made a character and start playing in less than 20 minutes. Very old school at that.
@@AdlerMow I agree, a +1 or a +2 really changes the odds, but doesn’t break the game.
I played from 81 on through 2nd Ed. We always used skill checks. Generally a d20 vs some attribute.
Brilliant video, thank you. I will try 2d6. The probability bell curve on multiple dice is so important, I believe Gary Gygax put a discussion of probability into the 1e DMG!
I actually remember reading it.. It is in the first few pages and it is very interesting to read.
i think the individual combat table of chainmail functioned on 2d6
Nice system that is ideal for quick gameplay with predictable odds, though a roll under system has many advantages, you can include exploding die, with that you can have higher target numbers, this provides more flexibility than rolling under. None the less a good simple system.
" Counter intuitive to the human psyche, .."
Which means .. unnerving ..
Which in .. Horror games .. my gaming group goes with roll under during .. stressful .. moment to create dramatic tension.
Or at least create mental stress tension trying to figure out what is going on.
But we also run Call of Cthulhu/Ravenloft system campaigns using Whitewolf/World of Darkness: Vampire mix with D&D.
So tension leading into horror is common.
Having the shades of Gray and success or failure allows for a much more fun and interesting game.
I agree. It also gives more to the story instead of "you pass the check and the girl is charmed." Instead you can have on a roll of 7 "The girl is charmed, but she insist you must not wear metal armor, just leather, because metal is bad for the environment"
@@smugzoid5156 OSR in 2021. She's probably more charmed if you're a vegan.
@@crapphone7744 and you floss, and use springs of lavender in your armor.
Yes I want to use this but using a d20 instead for now, to sneak it in on the group they hopefully won't notice much of a change. I get push back when using d6s for some reason.
Some folks think the d6 is too pedestrian. Like it isn't D&D unless you use a bunch of strange dice or something. I like to use d6 dice (I got some huge ones for the gaming table) because you can easily add them mentally.
Yes I also think it's human prejudice. They're in the d20 comfort zone. D6's just don't feel right. Even if the odds work out better a d20 just "feels" right. From day one of my play experience with 1st Ed we used d20 checks. As a DM in 2nd I also kept that up.
@@WayneBraack i have been using 2d6 in my last three sessions. Honestly, the players seem to like/understand it better. I'm currently running a white lies campaign using it. And made "8" the middle instead of "7" to make skill checks more challenging.
1:40 It's tangential to the point of the video, but I always just convert roll-under into roll-over when I run games. For example, in the 1d6 skill system, instead of saying that you need to roll under your skill I just tell players that the target number is 7. Mathematically it functions the same but it's a lot easier for many people to grasp.
I started doing this as well... i just don't think it is that hard to understand
This was a great breakdown. Thanks!
You bet!!!
whenever it's a matter of rolling under, i have to take a deep breath to adjust my brain. the roll feels like a roll against oneself, against one's own ability with a minus one penalty to that ability. on the other hand, when i think of 2d6 rolls, i think of a meaningful bell curve, and a clear target number.
A bell curve (for those who like stats, or enjoy shooting craps). Bell curves ruled traveller for years, and it makes sense with consistency.
Im so happy i found this video. I just love talking and hearing about RPG Design :D.
Oh and im really surprised that you find rolling lower so counter intuitive. I mean its the default for basically any d100 system. (Warhammer / Call of Cuthulhu /...)
And i also made the observation that people understand rolling lower easier because A) they naturally understand what having a 40% chance of success means (rolling lower or equal then 4(0) with D10(0)) and B) because the GM can add all the modifiers together and just present a threshold which needs to be rolled under.
I think it is easy... but my once a month warriors get it confused all the time that i had to switch it. Of course I'm more immersed in the back end of planning, prepping and building, as opposed them (they just show up with dice, drinks, food).
"You don't want a low IQ, you want a high IQ."
Ironically, the higher your IQ, the less you are likely to balk at a roll-under mechanic.
Ah ha.... well played my friend
Here's a link to another good video about using 2d6 for skills, rolling high, not low, with interesting options for modifiers: ua-cam.com/video/keRug6gMzmo/v-deo.html
You might also check out the old Shadowrun/Star Wars rpg, which was entirely d6 based. Each 6 rolled allowed a re-roll which was added to the result, so a high difficulty could be beaten by a low skill sometimes.
I actually commented on that video, i guess he and i were creating around the same time, it came up in my feed atound same time i made mine.
Have ypu seen my white star videos?
Or eldritch tale one shot 2d6?
@@smugzoid5156 haven't seen those yet. will check them out.
@@MemphiStig here os the first part, i broke it up on 5 segments to explain from game set up to closure.
The game is a 1 hour 50 minute play.
At the end of the each video is the link to the next video if you want to speed through.
ua-cam.com/video/U1Pekn9nu6s/v-deo.html
Awesome video. I really liked your other videos on skill checks and mean to playlets the 3D6 one. the 2D6 also looks very good.
Thanks!!
Even cooler are 2d6 opposed rolls!
The player rolls for the climber and the referee rolls for the wall.
@@Robocopster And still have the " Oh Crap ! " effect when you roll double 1s ..
Snake Eyes. !
I use 2d6 opposed for pretty much everything. Grapples and such.
Great video. What was the horror product you mentioned?
White lies? Or eldritch tales.
I have done both. I have an entire game of eldritch tales (on youtube) using 2d6, and it worked great
Just 1d20 under attribute. Use increments of 5 for quality results.
That will work, except for 2 caveats:
1) it would offer/pose possible two many variations of results. For example if a player has a 13 str, and rolls a 9 how much different would that be fron an 8 or 7. With the 2d6 method there is only 5 stages (horrible fail, fail, pass with a twist, pass, pass with bonus).
2) the issue i have with roll under methods are player confusion. With the 2d6 roll up, this is circumnavigated.
John, where ya been buddy?
Too busy.. Mike was just asking about finishing Laughing Dragon. You up for the challenge?
There is no one true way of course, but the (general) point about OSR and "why use skill checks" is missing the point entirely. It is conflating a (general) disliking of *skills*, with that of *skill checks*. Every OSR game has checks, and even the accompanying screenshotted examples failed to show any skills. To be consistent with this erroneous view of 'skill checks', would require a system without any mechanical resolution system, that is after all what a check ultimately is.
I agree that my video isn't specifically about "Skills" such as what is seen in Eldritch Tales ua-cam.com/video/zPEIHAZqFPM/v-deo.html or White Star ua-cam.com/video/kQyd7LQCjOM/v-deo.html But general resolutions that occur during the game, involving the 6 major stats.
Narratively something either happens or it doesn't - so everything is 50/50. They key is only rolling when it would make the story more interesting.
Well, there are several schools of thought on this topic. My players love the dice roll as arbitrator of events. I believe they feel it keeps my adjudication of results slightly independent of my narrative, so I'm not railroading the adventure.
why? to make things more complex
Great question.
As an OSRian, i change things up between games. When it comes to skill checks.
Simple d6
Adding d6
2d6
D20 roll under
3d6 roll under
I find it interesting to switch it up and compare how it effects the game flow.
@@smugzoid5156 it wasn't a question but an answer to the question
So why would you argue 2d6 is better than 3d6?
Great question....
You could use 3d6, with 5 tiers, however adding dice would be slower.
2d6 is maybe visually faster to calculate, and your bonus of +1 or +2 would be more significant than if you use 3d6. But you could use it and adjust the scale accordingly.
@@smugzoid5156 I just had been introduced to 3d6 first. But I came into D&D with 3rd edition, when 1d20 was standard. So the 3d6 had the advantage of having a result between 3 and 18, which is very close to the 1 to 20 range. And after all, 3d6 still uses a bell curve, and a smoother curve than 2d6.
So I mainly ask because you said that 2d6 has a certain advantage over single-dice rolls. But your notes also listed 3d6 alongside 1d6 and 1d20. Which didn't seem correct. Because 3d6 would have the same kinds of advantages over 1d6 or 1d20 (or 1d10) as the 2d6 does.
@@twi3031 i think i was just referring to my other videos talking about using 1d6, 3d6 and 1d20. The same can be accomplished with 3d6 but i wouldn't use 3d6 roll under if a player's stat is an 18. It would be almost impossible for them to fail.
We just flipped it... 2 in 6.. becomes 5 or better. Add your bonuses.
That will work.
Why 2d6? Why not?... Why skill checks? Why not? Dice ONLY produce numerical randoms and the more dice, the more times you can roll duplicate results. a D20 offers 20 results. 2d6 only offers 11 results because you can't roll a 1. 3d6 removes 2 results. A d12 retains all 12 results. But single dice don't have bell curves. It's about the bell curves. As for skills, well every skill is matched with an attribute. You CAN just roll the attribute, but it doesn't allow for varied skill levels. Some want to allow for skill levels.
Interesting, but just use DnD 3.0 skills with 3d6 instead of a d20. It's this but better, and takes less work since it's already done for you.
In not familiar with this skill check. Got a link?
@@smugzoid5156 No link for the 3d6, as that's an alt rule in Unearthed Arcana for DnD 3.x. The skill list can be found in the d20srd site (first google suggestion). Not sure how to make it a link.
@@hikarihitomi7706 www.d20srd.org/indexes/skills.htm
rolling under is easy for nerds who play
Yes... i don't find it that difficult, easier to say you have a 3 in 6 chance, so you roll 3 or less. Compared to 4 or higher.