In 1993 my Dad and I drove down to Bremerton to visit the battleship Missouri. That was great but berthed directly beside Missouri on the other side of the pier was New Jersey. I was staring at her when a Navy Lt Commander happened by and after a brief conversation he invited me aboard. He gave me a full tour for about 2 hours. It was incredible.
I worked in a bar in the early eighties. He was manning an open position on the Exeter when it engaged the Graf Spee in the battle of the river Plate. When he had downed a few too many,he would sometimes talk about it. He spoke if the sheer terror and horror of being covered in the evicerated parts of his crewmates. He didn't even realise he had soiled himself until after the battle. I Can't describe the look of pain and anguish in his face as he relived that moment . R.I.P Ben, I think of you often x
We didn't know how to address PTSD or as it was called then combat fatigue and even today far too many end up on the street. Also sadly the police do not know how to handle these people. I remember walking into a bar in Superior, Wisconsin just after one had a tussle with another bar patron and when the cops showed up they just walked up and without even saying they were there to arrest him they just grabbed him which ended up with a knocked out cop and the other was mad as hell.
@@thomasb1889 if that kinda cause interests you, then your time would be well targeted giving presentations to care and nursing homes about the problems that PTSD, or even worse PTSD mixed with dementia, can cause. It might save some old souls from getting kicked out of homes, let the staff understand why a sweet little old man might one time lose his rag and maybe strike someone. I know that's not something staff should have to put up with either, but some understanding might help stop it becoming a issue in the first place
To add a little bit more history to the battle of the River Plate. My uncle was the 1st officer on HMS Exeter. His name being Commander Bobby Graham, he survived the battle but was injured , unfortunately was killed later on off Norway My mother as a 18 year old was at a school in Germany in 1937 close by the Keil canal and went on the Graf Spee as a quest at a party. It has always fascinated me that two members of my family had two totally different connections with the Graf Spee. I don't know if my mother even met Captain.Langsdorff My mother died in 2020 (aged nearly 101)
There were many cross relationships between European countries back in the early 20th Century... Marriages across borders were common, allowing such linkages to be more common than one might expect today... This takes nothing away from your stories fascinating aspects, it's a great story that only supports the old adage that, "Truth is Stranger than Fiction"....
Nobody *has* an Iowa. Do anyone think the US Congress will allocate the hundreds of millions of dollars required to make a museum battleship war-worthy?? A modern sub would sink an Iowa in their first encounter. A modern frigate or destroyer type has almost as much firepower, as long as their missile reloads last. Using an Iowa as a platform to launch cruise missiles is a waste of resources; her big guns are weapons whose time passed early in WW II - about the time the Repulse and Prince of Wales bounced off the ocean floor in the South China Sea. Even if Congress allocated funds, it would be two years to get the work done, and by that time the need would have passed. The only era in which the Iowas were useful was when they were used to... wait, there was no era when they were useful, except as defensive threats in the blueprint stage. There supposed usefulness came about against countries which essentially had no navy and no ocean-going air forces, though no one could have anticipated the Battle of Midway sweeping Japan's last best hope from the seas, or the big 18" battleships of Japan being thrown away as they were in a 'forlorn hope' attack. Oddly, the idea that aerial bombing and air power alone could defeat an adversary was just wishful thinking, but air power was able to eliminate most of the Axis powers' surface warfare treats, and air power put a big hitch in the threats from their underwater forces.
@@ammoalamo6485 You have never had the responsibility of millions of dollars worth of equipment have you? As long as he has that it is his, and as long as it is his it will be properly maintained. so other than being a moron, lighten up Francis.
One "miss" in the discussion was that Graf Spee had a distillation system to take bunker fuel and convert it into lighter fractions to be burned in her diesel engines. That system was damaged in the battle and could not be repaired in a few days so she was effectively toast when forced to leave temporary safe harbour.
A lot of the earlier diesel were able to run on basically crude oil! (Heavy Crude) In fact a lot of supertankers's diesels run on the Middle East "Sweet Light" Crude... they run it through filters and separators. (The separators remove both water and debris.)
@@timengineman2nd714 While that may be, I’m guessing that burning bunker oil in diesels would cause them to operate at a much lower efficiency and possibly gum them up if done for a prolonged period. The British cruisers, which were faster even under normal conditions, could have just tailed her and radioed her position until Renown arrived to pound her to scrap.
@@timengineman2nd714 Even heavy crude is often FAR lighter than bunker fuels, which are known as "residual fuel oil", basically being what is left over after the light hydrocarbons where removed. So also how in cold conditions aircraft use a "wide cut" fuel, meaning its a wider portion of the range to include lighter oils than normal JetA kerosene does, thus not freezing or waxing as early, but becoming a larger fire hazard and being less dense (both in absolute terms, and in energy per weight or volume). Indeed its not just a trick of large marine engines, you can change only the carburetor jet and a lawn mower off sweet crude (it does smoke a bit, but not even worse than using a twostroke mix), while lots of the US sour crude will run without modification in truck engines, just with the hazard that contaminants can cause lubrication issues to the fuel pump, or (if not filtered intensely) block injectors, which are both expensive rebuilds. So why don't people do this? Its expensive, wasting the highest retail markup portion of the fuel oil in an application that doesn't benefit from it, has higher volatility related risks and is harder to control emissions. You can live with that if you had to, but seeing as supply rather than refining has almost always been a bottleneck, nobody is really in that situation.
@@SheepInACart Thank you! (I always thought that "Bunker C" (what the US Navy used to use (before my time) was basically Crude Oil (aka similar in grade to "Pennsylvania dark crude") that had been passed through filters and centrifugal purifiers a few time). The US Navy now uses DFM (Distillate Fuel, Marine) a NATO standard. From what an "Oil King" on one of my ships told me it was close to #2 Heating Oil or (after the Paraffin had been removed) #2 Diesel Oil, but not quite! I've seen large boilers (USS Saratoga CV-60), Diesel engines (of all sizes), and even Gas Turbines (basically a jet engine in a maritime version) run on DFM.
That's a very important consideration. I heard a similar comment many years ago. Boilers can burn any old crap, but piston engines will gum up if they don't have refined diesel.
As an adendum to the Graf Spee, when she was scuttled in the River Plate a lot of her was still above water, British Intelligence, through a Uraguayian front company purchased the salvage rights for £14,000 and recovered her radar and fire control equipment which were examined in detail and information passed back to London, the Range Finder is still in Montevedio on display
I find it intriguing that the BB Missouri Museum Curator did not know about the huge disparity between American and all other FC Systens in the planet!!! Our first Salvo should at the very least be a straddle, if not getting one or more hits and the second salvo should have at least a few hits on a Cruiser sized target!
German ships began to receive FuMO 22 Seetakt (Sea Tactical) radar from 1938 on everything from destroyer up. The German Navy Signals Branch under the Physicist Admiral Freiherr von Kunhold invented radar in 1932 achieving detection of both and aircraft slightly before the British (Wattson Watt). It was an outgrowth of sonar work intended to aim guns. Incidentally the US and UK invented radar around the same time all interdependently the British moved a bit faster as the relaxed their requirements and used longer wavelengths as they were mostly interested in detecting aircraft whereas the Germans focused on naval fire control that came out of attempts to use passive and active sonar for fire control. By the time the Battle of Denmark Straights happened between PoW and Bismark the British Type 284 and FuMO 23 had radar of approximate equal capacity. The Tirpitz, following Bismarck by 4 months upgraded the FuMo 23 radar to FuMo 26 and had full blind fire capability due to lobe switching.
Well, the US built ships that were specifically designed to counter ships like the Graf Spee and other pocket battleships. The Alaska class large cruisers. Slightly bigger than the Graf Spee, they had nine 12" main guns, 12 5" guns, 56 40MM and 34 20 MM guns. 9" belt armor, 12.8" turret faces and 4" deck armor. 33 knot flank speed and 12,000 nautical miles at 15 knots.
The Alaska's brand new 12 inch 50 caliber guns fired a super heavy 1,140 pound AP shell that had the same kinetic performance as the older 14 inch 50 caliber guns of the New Mexico class battleships. The Alaska could have defeated all three German Panzerschiffe's at the same time with little difficulty.
@@Bellthorian Ring up All Ahead Flank and just cut one off, or at worst, maneuver so that it is the only one within range and shoot it up! You don't have to kill it, just render it unable to effectively shoot back!! Then in a kinda "Rinse and Repeat" go after the next one, and then run down the last one, sink it. Turn around and finish off the last 2!!!
The thought of an Iowa-class running around doing commerce raiding is frankly terrifying for a prospective Japanese or german empire. The amount of forces required to not just overwhelm her, but to cover enough ocean to find her, and to make sure that, if you do, you can at least keep her busy while the rest of the force steams to the scene with their fastest pace, is astounding.
It would take quite a chunk of the Kido Butai at its peak, or maybe all the Kongos backed up by a carrier division. The Iowa's were really monstrously powerful ships given their speed, endurance and power.
Like most of the US weapons, her enemies could not afford the Iowa class. Japan had a pathetic industrial potential; significantly inferior to Italy. Basically the US made a ship that could beat them ever which way, and said, what do you think about that? After aircraft carriers became the peak ship, the US made dozens. Very hard to imagine how the Japanese could counter any of this. As Yamamoto said, he could maintain the initiative for a few months, but with no real prospects after that.
@@stevenpace892 Japan's industrial potential was significant. You can't build aircraft carriers or battleships like the Yamato without it. The problem was that they didn't have easy access to the resources necessary to maintain their industrial capacity, which was what led to the war in the first place. Competing with the U.S. on a full war footing was never a winning proposition, but neither was being slowly starved of oil. Japan was in a difficult position no matter how you look at it.
@@Lennis01 I agree Japan had "significant" industrial potential and agree Japan had big issues with resources, but my point was their industrial output put them at the bottom of the major players. Even with infinite resources, including oil (which they had almost none) they still would have been the weakest of the major war powers. They built a sizeable navy over a very long period; those ships were not replaceable. People underestimate the imbalance in industry between the US and Japan. Japan was an ant industrial base against a bear, AND shortages of almost everything.
Great to see you cover Graf Spee. Battle Of The River Plate has been one of my all time favourite films since my (long ago!) childhood, along with The Cruel Sea - both excellent films.
I have personally seen the Graf Spee, and by that I mean the tops of the stacks and some of the mast protruding from the water. I saw her when I passed only about 100-200 yards away when my ship (Charles F. Adams-class guided missile destroyer) passed it on our way into Montevideo harbor to tie up to the pier in August of 1989.
The New Jersey isn’t a late war Battleship she was ordered and laid down just a year after Germany invaded Poland and well before the US entered the war. The reason she wasn’t commissioned sooner was after Pearl Harbor and especially Midway Battleships weren’t a priority. The correct comparison would be during the Washington Naval and Versailles Treaties and post Treaties.
@@jakegrant5698 It’s what it was designed to do, my guy. It’s a fast, heavily armed, heavily armored cruiser which could: A. Catch convoys B. Outgun their escorts C. Dab on merchant vessels D. Force their expected enemies to dedicate valuable battleships or heavy cruisers to convoy escorts rather than other missions, as the battleships or heavy cruisers would be the only things that would (in theory, on paper) outmatch the Deutschland class in these scenarios. The idea of all of this is to stretch the numerically superior Royal Navy as thin as humanly possible, allowing the German Navy local numerical parity or superiority. Or at least make it less outnumbered. In practice this didn’t work out so well, as their surface fleet got curbstomped by both sea and air power, the latter being something very few were expecting to be quite so powerful.
Only a fool prepares to make a fight against an enemy fair. The object is to outclass them, like sending Warspite up the fjord to Narvik. No more destroyers were lost after 15" fire cleared the field of opposition.
Let us just say this, the Graf Spee had the official motto of being able to "Outgun anything that can catch her, and outrun anything that can outgun her." This is with the 6 11.1 inch guns (2 x 3 gun turrets) on deck and 29 knots top speed. Iowas have 9 16" main guns (3 x 3 gun turrets) on deck and 33 Knots top speed. Also, Graf Spee was armored like a light cruiser and Iowa was armored like a battleship. There is only one way it ends. Done. EDIT: Apparently people have some weird misconceptions about my statement here (which, please note, I have not adjusted, this edit is only an addendum). Here is for any who do not understand reading past the quote from the crew of the Graf Spee: the Iowa Class has heavier armament and is faster than the Graf Spee. The Graf Spee's guns could only have done damage to things like the conning tower (not including the Citadel), 5 inch guns, and deck implacements of an Iowa. Much of the deck armor of an Iowa is thicker than the belt armor of a Graf Spee, or even the turret armor (6 inch deck armor for the Iowa, 3.9 inch belt armor and 5.5 inch turret armor for the Graf Spee). That is not even mentioning the 12.1 inch belt armor of an Iowa. Graf Spee is completely outclassed here, as Ryan says, and I was stating the obvious _when the video was premiering_. And no, I did not look up what I said when I commented, I went from memory as Naval history, particularly around WWII, is a hobby of mine and I can pretty accurately remember weird outliers like this. (By the by, when I state that that Graf Spee is armored like a light cruiser, I mean she is armored similarly to a light cruiser like the Cleveland Class, who is actually more heavily armored in some places than the Graf Spee). I do think that if the Graf Spee could have gotten in close for a torpedo run she could have had a snowballs chance of winning, but the conditions for that would be very odd, and have a slim chance of confluences.
But even when built, they knew that there were some ships that could do both. The Renowns and Hood to name just 3. Then the Dunkerques came slightly after. Comparing these two is a bit off...maybe if all three Panzerschiffe meet ONE Iowa, it might be a fair match..but one on one? Could 18x28 cms do enough damage from all sides, to kock out 9x40,6 cms? I assume that a Panzerschiff hit by a full 9x40.6 broadside will just topple over and capsize.
I was captivated by BRP as a kid, intrigued by Graf Spee and the heroic Exeter. Excellent video, thank you. I saw the Iowa in NYC in 1984, awesome, my favourite class of battleship.
You are very talented as a speaker, and interestingly presenting interesting topics I wouldn't have considered, and I enjoy your regular uploads, so thanks!
All BB NJ would need to do is launch a spotter plane & stay out of the Graf Spees' torpedo range. Not too hard to imagine what 16inch high capacity shells would do to Graf Spee when you consider what 6inch and 8inch shells did to Graf Spee at the River Plate battle . It would be like the Green Bay Packers going up against your local High School Football team .
NJ is better than Graf Spee in every concievable way apart from Graf Spee having torpedoes. NJ had the speed and firepower to kill Graf Spee very badly without NJ even getting a scratch.
Welded hull was a neat approach for warship construction. 15% weight savings means a lot, especially when there were treaties governing warship displacement. I do like the Dunkerque-class battleships, for the unique layout. It's too bad those weren't able to see better use during the war.
To follow up on a question at the end of the chat, the Diesel engines were direct drive not Diesel Electric (meaning Diesel generators powering electric motors attached to the shafts), which were usually less fuel efficient than direct drive in those days. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutschland-class_cruiser
I didnt realise just how close these ships got to each other during exercises etc. Those black and white films are amazing and I hope that one day someone gets round to changing them into colour. Modern ship captains would die of a heart attack if another ship cut across their bow just 50-100 metres away! WW2 Veterans certainly were a breed apart!
Sorry, but and I am now retired but we did that all the time. Indeed for UNREP we are about 30m apart tops. So. Nope we do not have heart attacks. It is what we do
During the battle, HMS Exeter lost her ability to fire her 8" & 4" guns (~203mm & ~102mm). She turned away and later let the Commander Afloat know that she got a single 8" and a single 4" back into firing condition! Requested instructions on when, where, how the senior officer wanted them to reengage!!! (Shades of Nelson!!! Ready to put his ship alongside the enemy since he realized how vital it was to stop the KMS Graf Spee!!)
Royal Navy tactics where a pretty much standing order to engage enemy regardless. Multiple events where turned by plucky, determined and brave destoryers and Crusiers.
@@alexh3974 One lesser known fact about the hunt for KMS Bismark is that when they located her, near the end of the chase, the Admiralty didn't send orders for a destroyer squadron to go after the Bismark (mainly to harass her, but hey!, If enough torpedos hit and sank her they wouldn't object!!!) Instead, when debating about what order to give the Commander of these 5 destroyers, a friend of the Commander simply sent out the Bismark's location, speed and heading!! The squadron harassed the Bismark all night long. And I think that she didn't hit any of them, but of course a near miss with a 15" shell will do damage to a "tin can". This caused the Bismark's gun crew to be tired and a few guns having limited ammo supply!
@@timengineman2nd714 Intesting, Thankyou. Yes, her crew though some best they had, where not best state having been dogged, persued, harassed and hunted for multiple days straight by 50+ warships. Yet Royal Navy soon as one group grew low on fuel or ammo another fell into attack. Be it planes, ships small or large. Bismark was powerful, more powerful than most her huntere but the pack had numbers and stamina.
@@alexh3974 Another fact is that the PBY Catalina that spotted her did Not have a US Naval Officer aboard her (edit: aboard her as an observer)..... She was a US Navy airplane with a US Navy crew aboard!!! (There was an RN Instructor aboard her, but that was the only British person). This was so that the US got some combat training prior to our entry into the war, which FDR felt that it would only be a matter of time! Also, the US Coast Guard Cutter that almost got attacked by the Swordfish torpedo planes. was on weather duty.... But she also was under orders to always be close enough to the KMS Bismark so that every time she gave a weather report with her position, they had an approximate location of the Bismark!!!!!!!
The Panzerschiffe were terrific inasmuch as a ship that can walk away from anything it can't absolutely rubble has been a successful concept since The Original Six Frigates, especially for situations where you're against more powerful opponents. They're wildly successful inasmuch as significant resources were wasted in the creation of hard counters, which was more or less by accident, but undeniable. A weapon need never be fired to be deemed a success, if it makes the enemy do something he wouldn't've, otherwise.
What worked for those six frigates failed in throughout the twentieth century. The Brits decided that it wasn't necessary to build counters, just use small squadrons of smaller but faster older cruisers.
@@Matt_The_Hugenot Only an exceptional enemy will be able to put together such squadrons and have them be everywhere, and that's still a lot of resources to have to use for the purpose. That Germany decided to fight the one enemy who could do that doesn't reflect poorly on the ships.
@@Lazarus7000 These ships were designed for commerce raiding, a strategy only effective against countries reliant on maritime trade. In this period this meant countries with global possessions. All such potential adversaries, other than the determinedly neutral Portugal and the pacifist Netherlands, had navies well capable of using the same strategy the Brits used successfully. In short Germany invested a substantial part of its naval resources in ships which had no reasonable opponent, an appalling waste.
I mean Hood was already faster and more powerful not to mention aircraft carriers. The British didn’t even respond they only built the KGVs once the Scharnhorsts were a thing. The French responded tho.
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Slower than a fast battleship and armored like a cruiser. They were death traps.
These are my favourite type of video that Ryan does, really interesting and always fair. I really like the Queen Elizabeth class and would love to hear Ryan's thoughts on these.
I'm 63 , I commend you for your extensive knowledge you have for such a young guy. If only more of your generation had followed your steps this country would be far less divided than it is today . Every year we lose our precious veterans and every year our true history is being trashed by communists. I'm glad to have lived in the period of time that I have. Thankyou for your great love of what you do.
Lol, communists? There are about 7 actual communists in the United States today. There are millions of neo-fascists who are trying to trash this country and our history. At 60, I can say this with confidence.
Thank you, I was based in Wilmington with USACE and visited the USS North Carolina. I enjoyed your presentation. I had a model of a pocket battleship when in grade school. Appreciated its sleek design. You have made my appreciation of the pocket battleship richer.
True, after US ships got radar guided, they took over the night. They could sit back, and pound enemy ships from over the horizon. Radar fire was less accurate, but they could pound them until they ran out of ammunition, with no ability for the enemy to effectively respond.
The Germans had laid down the two H-class battleships at the same time as the Iowas. They ripped them up to make u-boats instead after 4000 and 8000 tons of keel was laid. Basically they had 16 inch guns, were 30% bigger and had more Armour, individual radar on the FLAK guns planed. They used Diesels to get great range (about twice that of the Iowa). They would have entered service at the same time as the Iowas. The Tirpitz, which entered service only 4 months after Bismark had full blind fire capability from its FuMO 26 radar while Iowa was still on the slipway. The FuMO 26 radar was a little weak (range about 25km) but by the 1942/43 the Seetakt radar had been increased 16 fold in power for shore installations. It looks now like this radar, known as FuMO 32 was installed on the Tirpitz (she spotted the incoming air raid at 150km) around middle of 1944. -So Tirpitz could have spotted Iowas over the horizon, aimed at them and spotted shell splash. The Tirpiz also had FuMO 81 microwave PPI radar and a Hohtenweil PPI radar. -The Germans were not completely outclassed, they would have detected the Iowas by radar over the visual horizon to the radar horizon to within about 0.25 degrees and 100m and they would have spotted shell splash. Maybe not as well as the Iowa but pretty good. They had only one battleship and it was damaged after nearly 20 attempts.
Repulse and Renown (especially after rebuilding) could easily overhaul them (The pocket battleships are credited in most sources with 26kts.). In the Norweigan campaign Renown reached 29kts. in mountainous seas.
I would back the 2nd Generation WW1 battlecruisers (13.5 inch vessels like Tiger, Princess Royal and their Kongo derivatives etc) against Graff Spee everytime
Whereas the Iowas could hit 33+ (I believe New Jersey hit 35 knots on sea trials), with the armor and guns of a full-on battleship (perhaps not the best armor, but still good), plus better fire control than anything the Axis had.
@@FS2K4Pilot Well, yes, but the point is that the Iowas weren't in commission at the time. When Graf Spee was cornered by the British cruiser squadron, the Americans didn't actually have any fast battleships of any sort; North Carolina was still under construction in 1939. Comparing USS Iowa to Graf Spee like comparing the nuclear-powered USS Enterprise to the USS Midway.
The cruise of the Graf Spee was a replay on a somewhat smaller scale of the cruise of the CSS Alabama. And yes there is "Lucky Jack Aubrey" and the dear HMS Surprise/
Good analysis of the pocket battleships which briefly did some damage to commerce shipping. I read the book account 30 years ago and it was interesting how the British trailed Graf Spey just out of range of her main battery. Of course they were no contest with the Iowas who would have torn them apart even if they got the first rounds off ahead of an Iowa. Enjoyed your presentation.
I'm not a Canadian lolol but I do approve of history and people tipping the hat to valiant figures of history. There is a petition to get Langsdorff Drive's name changed because people cant read a friggen history book past a summary or understand how awesome it is to live on a street named after a historic badass......... shit I live on Essex road......the rest of the streets in my adjacent neighborhood are named after U.S. Admirals and Generals. ill try to find a link
"people cant read a friggen history book past a summary" Operative words here are 'people don't like to use their brains' and 'too many of us only have the attention span to listen to a sound byte.' This is true even with older relatives you think would know better! I've clashed with people online because they DO NOT know how to comprehend things or understand context. It's not worth getting in a yelling match with dummies or people who have the broomstick of ideology far up their ass to use common sense! Leave that to Twitter!
Indeed, besides the huge armor and firepower advantage the Iowa's also have that decisive speed advantage too which would have allowed them to effortlessly chase the Spee down.. In a way the Spee was fortunate to have already met its fate in a way that spared the crew's lives before they had monsters like the Iowa's hunting them.
Ends badly is one way to say epic one sided non-consensual corn holing… Can’t out run us, sure as shit can’t out shoot us, and our immunity zone is absolutely ridiculous against 11” shells; hope your affairs are in order…
@@tominiowa2513 touche; but I would wager that the finer points of American English colloquialisms would be the last thing on the the Graf Spee crew’s mind about 30 seconds after the MK 8 indicated that it had a firing solution…
I haven't watched the video yet but I'm pretty sure there's only one possible answer to this one. A better question might be, how many pocket battleships would it take?
All of them, and I don't think even then they would hurt the New Jersey much. She's just got too long of range and would engage the German cruisers and do considerable damage even before they were able to get in range. I would also think that the Mk 13 high explosive shells could penetrate the armor of the Graf Spee and cause tremendous damage!
@@dundonrl Depends on the tactics of approach. Both ships on the same side, sink them one at a time. Closest first. However, if you get an Iowa between them, getting beaten from both sides and possibly dodging torpedos. Any battleship is going to have difficult time.
@@haroldhenderson2824 The New Jersey (and Iowa) strattled at extreme range the Japanese destroyer Nowaki. The Nowaki was far faster and maneuverable than the Graf Spee cruisers. I don't think it would matter what the German cruisers did, if the New Jersey was aware of them.
It would take enough Panzerschiffe to have some still afloat and in fighting condition after the Iowa ran out of ammunition for the main and secondary batteries.
As it turned out during W.W. # 2 the Pocket Battleships were too slow to operate with larger German fleet units such as Scharnhorst and Gneisenau or Bismarck and Tirpitz. The Admiral Hipper class cruisers would be escorts to the Battleships. Although the diesel engines gave great range in service they could not generate the high speed marine steam turbines such as in the large German battleships or New Jersey for that matter. When you have a 5 knot speed advantage over your opponent and larger , longer ranged main battery you can dictate the battle terms. New Jersey wins by a long shot. Thanks for the video !
"I'm comparing her [Graf Spee] to New Jersey because I happen to have New Jersey. I happen to have an Iowa class battleship." How many people can say that? You are a very lucky man! Thanks, by the way, for another great video.
I always love how you say "...because I have in Iowa class battleship" , saying it so easy sounding like it's normal having an Iowa class battleship standing in the backyard.
For Ryan, it just IS normal. I don't know where Ryan stands in the pecking order of the museum staff organization, probably top 5, I would guess, but there is no doubt that New Jersey is Ryan's baby!
Hi, a second thought, viz saving weight by arc welding. It saves the rivet weight yes but much more weight by eliminating the overlap of the plates for riveting. Ingenious these Germans.
I did it in 2 broadsides on Atlantic Fleet. Using the (never built but closest available approximation) HMS Lion (9x16 inch) v Lutzow, the first one set her ablaze, the second set off her magazines.
Captain Langsdorf was perhaps the most chivalrous of the WW2 German ship commanders , every ship he defeated , he ensured that the crews were treated fairly and properly even looked after , he sent several of the crews off to internment on some of the captured merchant ships manned by his own crew , and most of the Captains of these vessels spoke Very highly of him after . He may have been a thorn in our side and posed a significant threat , but none the less He really was a Hero with genuine human values , He most certainly was Not a Fascist .
Given to me by an old sailor ( his intention was to present it to a new HMS Exeter if they built one)and in pride of place is a small mounted piece of planking from HMS Exeter and attached to it is a piece of shrapnel from the Graf Spee . Hans Langsdorf was a Bavarian gentleman , always allowing crews of ships to abandon them before sinking them . When he committed suicide he did so on the German Imperial flag and not the Swastika flag .🇬🇧
Pocket battleships were just heavy cruisers that carried 11 inch guns instead of the usual 8 inch. Their 11 inch guns would pose no serious threat to any modern battleship. No contest
I would bet on any of the 2nd Generation WW1 Battlecruisers (Lion class. Tiger, Kongo, Deflinger) against the Graff Spee, The 3rd gen Battlecruisers like Renown and Hood would be overkill as for any of the treaty era and beyond battleships (KGV, North Carolina, Dunkerque and newer) would be the most uneven fight in history
Not quite true, the AP shells for the 11 inch guns could theoretically penetrate the armored belt of almost any battleship ever actually put into service, albeit at a very short range. This includes the Iowas. The pocket battleships themselves however don't have the armor to take a fight with a battleship at any range.
@@twotone3471 The G7a torpedo could reach 7.5km while moving at 40kts, meaning it could be launched at a distance of 13.7km from directly ahead of New Jersey if she is running at full speed. This is the absolute maximum range and it's still well within visual range and most certainly within range of New Jersey's guns. These torpedoes don't have any homing capability and would need about an hour to reach the target. That is assuming they get there at all because they were not exactly reliable. To put it simply, torpedoes miss and/or fail and Graf Spee enjoys a light shower of 16 inch shells.
@@twotone3471 Somebody overdosed himself with World of Warships... Well, that game has absolutely nothing to do with reality. Brawling battleships and cruisers were not a thing, especially not with torpedoes. The only instance a battleship launched torpedoes against another ship was the Rodney against the Bismarck at the end of the battle, when the fate of the german ship was already set. About the guns: those 11" guns were not the same that those on the Scharnhorsts (28 cm SK C/34). Deutchland-class ships guns (28 cm SK C/28) had shorter barrel, smaller chamber volume, used lighter and shorter projectiles with smaller bursting charge (at least the APC) and to top this the propellant charge was smaller too. Not even the stronger shells were able to penetrate the main deck of an Iowa (less then 3" of penetraton capability vs the 6" main deck of an Iowa). The SK C/28's shells had a bit higher impact angle at the same distance, but thanks to the lighter shell the impact velocity and the penetration were even lower then of the C/34's shells. If the NJ was closer then 30 km, then the plunging fire from the guns of the Spee were uneble to defeat even the 1.5" bomb deck (or weather deck, use what you like). And if you take consideration of the armored belt's slope and the impact angle, the Spee's guns were able to penetrate NJ's belt, but only if she was closer then 7 km. From that disttance almost the muzzle blast of the 16"/50 guns could blow off Spee's superstructure. And from that distance, Spee must whitstand not only the main guns of NJ, but half of the heavy AA armamant too. 5"/38 guns could devastate the german ship from that distance too. Not just by the penetration cababilities, but with sheer fire rate. In a matter of minutes those guns could saw-off all of Spee's superstructure. On paper the german 15 cm guns were nice, but as in the Bismarck case the mount was inadequate for almost anything. And there were only 4 per side on the Spee, with 6-8 RPM fire rate. Compare this to the radar directed fast moving twin turret mounts of the 5"/38's with 15 RPM or even higher fire rate. And NJ has 5 of those in each side. And the other thing: Spee had 150 rounds for each of those guns max, meanwhile NJ had 500 fot each barrel. Even in this comparison the Spee is absolutely inferior.
The weight savings of welded seams over riveted seams is far more than the weight of the rivets themselves - the mated/flanged fittings when welded do not need anywhere near the bearing/surface area as they do when riveted and therefore the parts themselves can be noticeably lighter.
Another wonderful presentation, Ryan. A few thoughts if I may... 1. I believe the weight saved with welding instead of riveting is not just due to eliminating the weight of the rivets but also eliminating the extensive framing they require. 2. If I were to design these "pocket battleships," I would put both the turrets at the stern. Since they can outrun anything they can't fight this would be the obvious place to put them to defend against pursuers and the speed would be sufficient to allow them to attack any commerce ships which would typically be slower. Further the weight saved by combining the armored magazines could be put to other uses. 3. At the time of their design, it would seem that the existence of scouting aircraft and radio would have already made surface raiders obsolescent. Thanks again!
15:40. Seems you forgot something quite important: Graf Spee had her fuel processing plant destroyed in the battle. She couldn't get back go Germany without it.
@@AdamSmith-kq6ys Not enough space. Armour is heavy, even more so if you are constrained by weight limitations as Graf Spee was. The only things protected by the armor belt was the vital parts of machinery and the magazines. The rest of the ship was usually just armored against splinters.
@@higfny Oh agreed, but it appears that the fuel treatment plant _was_ a vital part of the machinery, no? Perhaps not _recognised_ as such by her KM designers, but nevertheless _Spee_ was doomed by it's loss.
@@AdamSmith-kq6ys One could argue that for the role she was used, as a long range cruiser, that was vital to her mission. But ships of the line was constructed with a mission in mind where they would fight a battle and then quite quickly be in contact with friendly forces or return to base. Think WW1 and Jutland. The problem was that if the ship can only protect the absolutly most vital things, if not she will be too heavy. So its propulsion machinery and "things that make the ship go boom if hit (i.e. magazines). Everything else gets less protection. There is a ton of stuff on a ship she can't be without for more than a few days, but if "say afloat and fight for the next 12 hours" is the only thing that matters (that's whats typically reffered to as vital), you can make the protection around those spaces much better. That was the "all or nothing" scheme pioneered by the US Navy in WW1 and became the standard after that conflict. Older ships did have more armor on other parts, but the vitals where then less protected.
One way or the other. There is something called the 21' rule. Basically if you have someone with a knife within 21' of someone with a (holstered) sidearm then the guy with the knife can rush and stab the other guy before he can react. Of course you're not going to get that close to a 58,000 ton radar equipped battleship in a 10,000 ton commerce raider, so the guy with the gun already has it out and aimed at you.
@@crazyguy32100 So, the Tueller rule is important (the 21' thing) but circumstantial. As a Parole/Probation cop I often have to be withing 21' of dangerous people with access to knives, but there are means of mitigation. The best way to mitigate that risk would probably be to find a safer job, but I digress...
Ryan is building up a phrase catalog comparable with Drach’s. “Phallic symbols of your dictatorship” in this video. --- Interesting video despite the obvious answer to the initial question. The naval footage was very cool. I’m going to repeat a suggestion found elsewhere in comments. How about comparing ships other than New Jersey? Someone mentioned doing a video of Graf Spee against HMS Renown. I think that be a great video to do.
The ONLY chance for Graf Spee was to stay out in the ocean, undetected. If an Iowa-class gets close, one on one, it ends the same way. When Graf Spee got caught by three ships, she couldn't sink any of them fast enough to gain a "weight of shell" advantage.
Actually it would be worse!!! On hit from a 16" shell would do more damage than several hits of 8"! The battle would be similar to a high school age boxer going up against a world champion of the same weight class!
@@timengineman2nd714 Actually, the AP round wouldn't be needed. The Mark 13 HE round was designed to penetrate light armor (looking at you GS) and concrete and had a 155 pound bursting charge. They would have done horrendous execution.
How would the Graf Sper compare to the Des Moines, Salem class American heavy cruisers with the automatic 8 inch guns or the Alaska class? Would love to hear your opinion on those match ups.
Repulse had the advantage of existing to fight Graf Spee and was designed to counter commerce raiders. Iowa hadn’t even been laid down when Graf Spee was defeated.
@@michaelwise1224 Repulse/Renown were designed in 1916 long before the PBs were ever thought about. But your comment does bare some weight in the modernization that the ships went through.
I would contend that Renown, although designed as a battleship, was redesigned in construction as a battlecruiser and thus of a type similar to Invincible that overwhelmed commerce raiders at the Falklands. I think a valid comparison of Iowa to Deutschland class ships would be in the shore bombardment role (which happened) rather than ship on ship (that didn’t happen).
well the Captain of the graf spee thought that repulse was closing in on the river plate, and it seems it did factor in his decision to scuttle, truth is even the renown class was too much for graf spee.
@@b_de_silva Yes, the captain of the Graf Spee did scuttle his damaged ship (also low on ammo). He believed that the Brits had overwhelming force (including a carrier) awaiting him. I still think that in a one-on-one the fight would be closer than most would think.
Looking at some of these "what if" scenarios and other comparisons. I wonder how the Battle of Jutland might have played out if we replaced the battleships of either side with the same weight of Iowa class battleships or even just replace the lines with the four Iowas. Unless mismanaged the Iowas should have been able to engage earlier, more accurately, and even controlled engagement range but would four be enough to take out either fleet?
There were a lot of British battleships and battlecruisers, replacing the British battleships with the four Iowas is a stretch, although the Iowas would have the advantage of radar.
@@SteveBravy That radar I believe would also allow them to take advantage of better speed and range with bigger guns. I also think they'd have an advantage in protection.
The Graf Spee would be able to do an Iowa Class's superstructure, but would not be able to score a vital hit and defeat the NJ's armored belt. NJ's 16" guns would wreck the Spee in short order.
I have a video suggestion for Ryan: If you were the Admiral of the Germany Navy, how would you have used your limited fleet of battleships, cruisers, and submarines to fight the British, French, and United States with some hope of success. I know they had one Aircraft carrier, but they never bother to utilize it for some reason.
At what point in the war? In 1939 the Germans had only two 11 inch gunned battleships, three 11 inch gunned cruisers, one Hipper Class Cruiser and six light cruisers of somewhat dubious value. Maybe against the French fleet it might be able to stand and fight in 1939 since the Scharnhorsts are superior to the Dunkerque class in everything except gun throw weight. On the other hand the French nearly tripled the Germans numbers of cruisers. The same with destroyers. Even the US Navy in 1939 would have an advantage against the Germans in everything but battleship speed. The British were just overwhelming. They would have stripped the Germans of all their cruisers and destroyers and then sent waves of torpedos at the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau while the Hood threw 15 inch rounds against them.
In short: the Kreigsmarine didn't have a prayer. They were the weakest navy of WW2 after the Soviets. The French navy outmatched them on their own, never mind if you throw in the British. There was simply no circumstance where the Germans could achieve any real success in a naval conflict against such odds. The Italians did much better in the Med but the Regina Marina was trapped there, unable to get past Gibraltar. The best that the Regina Marina could manage was a stalemate against the Royal Navy, and for the Axis, a stalemate wasn't good enough.
They didn't use it mostly because it was never completed. Resources were redirected as the war went on and Hitler became disillusioned with Raeder's surface navy.
Another advantage or diesel engines to steam turbines is , that diesel engines can start and run up in just a few minutes, there is no time required to built up sufficient steam pressure for running the turbines, which could last up to 30 minutes.
The New Jersey would wax all three Deutschland class ships at the same time. It wouldn't even be close. Their only chance would to connect with their torpedos. A Baltimore class heavy cruise would defeat the Graf Spee. Even a brooklyn class light cruiser would everwhelm the paper thin armor of the Graf Spee with her 15 QF 6"guns
The interesting question about the pocket battleships is how would they do today? Obviously we would want to upgrade some things, but 6 11" guns would be quite useful for shore bombardment.
Just eager to know: why are we comparing the latest generation of battleship vs a pre War Armored Cruiser from 1934? Its like comparing the latest F1 car against a rally car from the 90s. Are we afraid of comparing NJ against something in her era and weight class?
This video is part of a series comparing the Iowa class (and NJ specifically) with all of the WWII battleships and battlecruisers. I agree this one is a bit of a stretch though, since as you said, it’s not even a battlecruisers, just an over-gunned heavy cruiser.
I happen to have an Iowa class battleship 😁. So absurd that that's true. Good stuff as always 👍 Unsure how far you want to take your UA-cam channel, but I would suggest a recording booth or atleast some sound deadning materials mounted when you reccord these talking head videos.
Considering the cost differential between these ships and the other heavy ships in my opinion they would have been better off just building more Deustchlands. They would have had the same impact for a lower cost.
@@timengineman2nd714 The problem would have been registering your target with only four main guns, as the British found with the Courageous class in WW1.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 But with improve fire control (early WW2 wasn't as good as mid or late WW2 but still vastly better than WW1. (Also better visibility since most naval ships were no longer burning coal!)
I suppose the thing for the French navy is that a ship specifically designed to counter the Deutschland class could also add some extra firepower to a heavy cruiser squadron and maintain the speed of that formation, which could have been useful in the Med, where the Regia Marina was operating, and was pretty big on cruisers.
In all fairness, I don't think any single gunboat of the time that you could hypothetically pit against an Iowa-class battleship would survive the encounter.
It would be interesting to see what the outcome would have been for an Iowa of a 1v1 with IJN Yamato. I know there has been speculation and logical assumptions, but strange things happen in the fog of war, and it's far from a cut & dried affair IMHO.
9 16" guns vs 6 11" guns plus Graff Spee was scuttled in 1939 Iowa class sailed in 1944. Still I too like to what if. I do prefer it to be more matched in time and type though. Last I heard the Graff Spee was classed as a battlecruiser.
@@patrickgriffitt6551 *Panzerchief (German name) or pocket battleship (British name). They were designed by the Weimar government to replace older pre-dreadnaught on like for like displacements, so was very limited. Nothing to compare them to. They became commerce raiders as it's about all they were good for once the French built the Dunkerques.
@@frogdude21XXX A Yamato would have likely defeated an Iowa on a clear day with her superb optical fire control. But otherwise it could go either way. It's also worth noting that Iowas super heavy shells are slow and can be more easily dodged at longer ranges. At night, on a foggy day or in smoke Iowa would likely win or at least survive due to radar directed fire control. In very rough seas, I doubt Iowa would do that well. She was designed for calmer seas and her bow could cause issues. Iowa was much better built and more modern than Yamato, but there's no escaping her being a fair bit smaller, less armoured and with smaller guns than Yamato. Also the US would be very unlikely to send just 1 Iowa Vs a Yamato. Why even try to give a fair fight when you don't need to? Quantity is a quality of its own, which makes pure 1v1 comparisons a bit irrelevant a lot of the time. I'm also not sure if it's worth comparing just the fire control, since Yamato could theoretically have been retrofitted with radar directed fire control, so you're not actually directly comparing the ships.
Yes, it was the end, and the peak of large naval guns. Nothing from that time, or any other, would ever be able to outgun it. Modern ships could defeat it, but not without use of modern torpedoes and/or missles and aircraft. Of course modern weapons are not designed for targeting such ships, and taking it out would require some lateral thinking. An enemy would probably be satisfied with a "mission kill", basically make render it inoperable by killing all of its electrical systems.
I think the pocket battleships where actually a faithful contemporary construction of a coastal defence battleship as was intended by the treaty of Versailles. This accounts for the 11 inch guns. The diesels selected to save weight and draft just happened to be very fuel efficient which gave them the dual use as commerce raiders. Very successful design as it was able to damage and drive off 22000 tonnes of cruisers at the river plate.
I used to think that but I think it was an ingenious way for the Germans to create warships that could be a potential threat while still following the treaty. I don’t think the Allies even thought about the use of tonnage like this when they held Germany to the rules at Versailles. If they had they would have put a speed limit of 22 knots on future large ships. They came out at a perfect time. The Brits only had 3 battlecruisers capable of countering them and while a Renown class and of course HMS Hood were more than a match for a Deutschland they couldn’t be everywhere. If the Admiralty had been aware of what could have been thought up maybe they would have kept HMS Tiger and the two Lion class BCs around in reserve just for such an emergency.
I agree almost completely with you. These ships make only sense in context, since they are inferior to a true Battlecruiser, like Renown or Repulse (even Tiger). Germany desperately needed to replace the Pre-Dreadnoughts that they were permitted to keep under the Treaty of Versailles. As you mentioned they had to stick to the limits in the Treaty, which were likely intended to limit construction to coastal defense ships like the Sverige class. In a strict military sense faster, 8 in gunned ships might have been more useful (as WW2 shows), but they are not capital ships and could not have represented interwar Germany in the same way.
uffffff I had this question in my mind but I didn't bother to make it since common the real question is how many Deutschlands would be needed to sink an Iowa!
If you could get an ambush, however many it would take to get in effective torpedo range. With guns, never. A Panzerschiff could be point blank and still not get through an Iowa's belt.
@@8vantor8 Depending on exactly what torpedo the Graf Spree is caring their maximum range is somewhere between 7,000 and 10,000 yards. Effect range the Jersey's main battery is 30,000 yards plus. If the Jersey has 1945 radar then Graf Spree is dead before she gets anywhere near torpedo range. If somehow Jersey exist in 1939 with 1939 radar and fire control, then Graf Spree _MIGHT_ sneak into torpedo range if she has _VERY_ favorable weather conditions. Even if she gets a good torpedo hit the best case for her is forcing the Jersey to withdraw.
@@Cholin3947 which is really all you can expect her to do, the whole point of battle cruisers is to out gun everything that is not a battleship, and when a BB shows up they either run or fight if they our number the BB
Ryan, I was remembering the Iowas as having a range of 18,000 nm at 12 knots. Is that accurate, or am I completely wrong? My source is an old History Channel documentary ( I forget the exact title, but it was narrated by Hal Holbrook).
Agreed. A more interesting comparison. Yet, I don’t think Graf Spee stands much chance here either. Alaska is better armored, faster, and 9 12” guns vs 6 11”.
Every German battleship of that time looked like a battle ship. The Prinz Eugen actually got caught by the Royal Navy , and turned over to to U.S. N. . Her name wasn't changed, however she got a U.S.S. prefix, and American flag. She was later used in atomic tests in 1946. She had once sailed with the Bismarck during its sea trials in 1940-41.
My TT wargaming group ran a simulation last week where an Iowa class engaged the Graff Spee, and Admiral Scheer. Both of the German ships went down at long range. I think the A.S got hit and sank in the first round when she was in range of Iowa's guns. The G.S. lasted longer to within G.S. secondary range where she too went to the bottom. During the second simulation A.S. faired better getting into point blank range causing major damage to Iowa before sinking. The G.S. during this action stayed out of range until A.S. sank crippled Iowa and getting crippled herself Iowa sank from G.S. torpedo. G.S. was a total loss with only 1 torpedo launcher remaining. In a fleet action G.S. will fair better against a larger battleship where she will have other ships to engage with. The key with winning against Iowa class is to use aircraft and subs. A pocket battleship should run away at top speed to avoid the big guns. On a side note I would love to do a few table top naval simulations on Battleship New Jersey.
@Battleship New Jersey There is a content creator on here that does computer simulations of theoretical battles that has done Iowa class battleships versus Kirovs and Yamato class ships that you may be interested in. You might even be able to get them to do something for you. The content creator is "Grim Reapers".
I have to disagree with Ryan in regards to the Royal Navy being worried about the Graf Spee and her sister ships. They were at worst an annoyance, but by putting one of the older, slower, battleships such as the Revenge Class in a convoy, that convoy was impossible for a Deutschland class to approach. That the Deutschland class were limited to operations in the Baltic highlights just how vulnerable to the Royal Navy they were. I agree with Ryan that they were in reality armoured cruisers, but in a world that had left the concept of the armoured cruiser behind, and that made them arguably obsolete even when they were launched in 1933. The idea that they'd be able to outgun anything they couldn't outrun didn't hold up even in the design stage given both HMS Hood, and the two Renown Class battle cruisers could easily outrun and outgun the Deutschland class design. Ironically, the class would have made good convoy escort ships. Their limited top speed wouldn't have mattered as they'd be attached to a slower convoy, and the six 11 inch guns would have been enough to act as a deterrent to any potential surface raider. While very unlikely to win a battle against a battle cruiser or battleship, the 11 inch guns could do enough damage that the surface raider would have to abandon its patrol and return to port for repairs. In most situations, a surface raider would withdraw and seek less dangerous targets.
@@colosseumbuilders4768 There were 4 carriers, 2 battleships, a battle cruiser, and 16 cruisers assigned the task of patrolling and engaging the Graf Spee if found during the three months she was on her war patrol. It sounds like a lot, I agree, but the headline figure over emphasises the true scale of the hunt. While all those ships were assigned orders including the order to patrol and intercept Graf Spee, they were not all deployed at the same time, or in the South Atlantic. If they were, Dunkerque wouldn't have been in a position be involved in the operation to counter Scharnhorst and Gneisenau in November 1939 by taking up a patrol area near Iceland. Further, that it was going to take any capital ships several days to reach the River Plate estuary despite the Royal Navy knowing the Graf Spee was in the South Atlantic suggests that those ships were busy elsewhere and had to be reassigned to the South Atlantic to join the blockade of Graf Spee in Montevideo Harbour. It is also worth noting that it's early in the war, and both the Royal Navy and Marine Nationale were keen to give their capital ship crews experience of war operations, both to boost levels of readiness, and for crew moral reasons. Overall, a more accurate statement would be that there were 4 aircraft carriers, 2 battleships, a battle cruiser, and 16 cruisers assigned to commerce protection in the Atlantic in late 1939, and for most of that time, the Graf Spee was the only active surface raider in that area.
Short Answer: USS New Jersey The Deutschland-Class Heavy Cruisers were built specifically to outfight any ship able to outrun it and outrun any ship able to outfight it. This was in the context of the early 1930s, where standard battleships were only capable of maxing out at around 24 knots, while the Deutschland-Class class was capable of 28 knots. Heavy cruisers typically were capable of 32 knots of speed, but only had 8-inch guns and modest armor (between 3 and 5 inches), making them quite vulnerable to the Deutscland-Class's 11-inch guns, and light cruisers and destroyers would be quickly blown away by those 11-inch guns. The only ships capable of seriously threatening the Deutschland class were Battlecruisers like HMS Hood, Renown, Repulse, or Japanese battlecruisers like Kongo, because they had 15 inch guns and were capable of 30 knots. They were vulnerable to the Deutschland class in return due to their weak armor, but it would be a question of whether the battlecruisers landed critical damage first against the Deutschlands. With the advent of Fast Battleships (younger battleship classes with much faster speeds, including the King George V, Scharnhorst, Bismarck, Yamato, Vanguard, Littorio, Richelieu, Dunkerque, North Carolina, South Dakota, Iowa), the one key strength the Deutschlands had to avoid destruction was gone. Iowa class battleships are capable of 32 knots, meaning they can rundown the Deutschland class cruisers if they spot them. The Deutschlands only have six 11-inch guns to the nine 16-inch guns of Iowa class battleships. Iowa class battleships have 6 inches of deck armor and 12.1 inches of belt armor. The Deutschlands only have 3 inch of deck armor and 4 inches of belt armor. New Jersey would easily penetrate Deutschland class ships with high-explosive shells, armor piercing shells being unneeded, and these would cause maximum internal damage to the relatively smaller and lightly armored heavy cruisers. The Deutschland class could theoretically do some damage in return, but only with armor piercing shell and a lucky hit to the more lightly armored parts of the ship.
I was present and an eye witnesses to one of the very best naval precision gunnery ever. The USS Merrill DD 976 a Spurance class destroyer in the Persian Gulf in 1989, in Operation Praying Mantis. At a range of 3 miles, she fired on an enemy oil platform with her fore and aft 5 inch guns. 107 rounds fired rapid fire, without pause...and there were no misses!! It was awesome.
It bears comparison to a famous order given by Captain Kelsey, of HMS Warspite, when firing at a German tank concentration at Hottot-les-Bagues, on 11 June, 1944. 'Guns, Fifty rounds fifteen inch rapid fire.'
The 3 panzershiffe were cleaver in that they did the job they were designed to do much like the disguised merchant raiders the Germans used later for commerce raiding. They were designed to operate a long way from a base and act alone. As such they did not need a lot of displacement allocated to armour, as colonial stations were equipped mostly with light cruisers not heavier vessels due to cost and treaty restrictions on numbers of heavier vessels. I think Ryan points out the major weakness in their design which is a lack of air defence. The ships became less useful as more caperble aircraft come on line alone with the developments in search RADAR, which means their ability hide in the vast open ocean diminished and the KM were well aware of this shortcoming, which is why they expanded the disguised commerce raiding force.
In 1993 my Dad and I drove down to Bremerton to visit the battleship Missouri. That was great but berthed directly beside Missouri on the other side of the pier was New Jersey. I was staring at her when a Navy Lt Commander happened by and after a brief conversation he invited me aboard. He gave me a full tour for about 2 hours. It was incredible.
Beennnffffff
Was that in Long Beach the decks were brilliant oak awesome
Tyco cruiser antium was next berth
@@amandastevenson4948 Ahhh...teakwood. Was on it during its refurbishment...1982-83...
Kool I remember the contrast against the grey paint awesome
I worked in a bar in the early eighties. He was manning an open position on the Exeter when it engaged the Graf Spee in the battle of the river Plate. When he had downed a few too many,he would sometimes talk about it. He spoke if the sheer terror and horror of being covered in the evicerated parts of his crewmates. He didn't even realise he had soiled himself until after the battle. I Can't describe the look of pain and anguish in his face as he relived that moment . R.I.P Ben, I think of you often x
Ironically, the crew from the Graf Spee was spared the fate of all the other capital ships crews.
I've often thought the Oral History project at the World War 2 museum was a smart idea implemented two decades later than it should have been.
@@tomdolan9761 where is that museum?
We didn't know how to address PTSD or as it was called then combat fatigue and even today far too many end up on the street. Also sadly the police do not know how to handle these people. I remember walking into a bar in Superior, Wisconsin just after one had a tussle with another bar patron and when the cops showed up they just walked up and without even saying they were there to arrest him they just grabbed him which ended up with a knocked out cop and the other was mad as hell.
@@thomasb1889 if that kinda cause interests you, then your time would be well targeted giving presentations to care and nursing homes about the problems that PTSD, or even worse PTSD mixed with dementia, can cause. It might save some old souls from getting kicked out of homes, let the staff understand why a sweet little old man might one time lose his rag and maybe strike someone.
I know that's not something staff should have to put up with either, but some understanding might help stop it becoming a issue in the first place
To add a little bit more history to the battle of the River Plate. My uncle was the 1st officer on HMS Exeter. His name being Commander Bobby Graham, he survived the battle but was injured , unfortunately was killed later on off Norway
My mother as a 18 year old was at a school in Germany in 1937 close by the Keil canal and went on the Graf Spee as a quest at a party. It has always fascinated me that two members of my family had two totally different connections with the Graf Spee. I don't know if my mother even met Captain.Langsdorff
My mother died in 2020 (aged nearly 101)
What an interesting story
@@somethingelse516 Thank you, funny how fact can stranger than fiction
Keil canal --> Kiel canal, nowadays "Nord-Ostseekanal" but back in the time "Kaiser-Wilhelm-Kanal", quest --> guest
That’s an amazing irony and history. Thanks for sharing it.
There were many cross relationships between European countries back in the early 20th Century...
Marriages across borders were common, allowing such linkages to be more common than one might expect today...
This takes nothing away from your stories fascinating aspects, it's a great story that only supports the old adage that, "Truth is Stranger than Fiction"....
“…because I HAVE New Jersey; I HAVE an Iowa Class battleship.”
Now that is a serious flex.
I love that statement... so COOL!
Yeah, that was one of the most bad ass things I have ever heard. "You have a what? I have an Iowa."
Nobody *has* an Iowa. Do anyone think the US Congress will allocate the hundreds of millions of dollars required to make a museum battleship war-worthy?? A modern sub would sink an Iowa in their first encounter. A modern frigate or destroyer type has almost as much firepower, as long as their missile reloads last. Using an Iowa as a platform to launch cruise missiles is a waste of resources; her big guns are weapons whose time passed early in WW II - about the time the Repulse and Prince of Wales bounced off the ocean floor in the South China Sea. Even if Congress allocated funds, it would be two years to get the work done, and by that time the need would have passed.
The only era in which the Iowas were useful was when they were used to... wait, there was no era when they were useful, except as defensive threats in the blueprint stage. There supposed usefulness came about against countries which essentially had no navy and no ocean-going air forces, though no one could have anticipated the Battle of Midway sweeping Japan's last best hope from the seas, or the big 18" battleships of Japan being thrown away as they were in a 'forlorn hope' attack.
Oddly, the idea that aerial bombing and air power alone could defeat an adversary was just wishful thinking, but air power was able to eliminate most of the Axis powers' surface warfare treats, and air power put a big hitch in the threats from their underwater forces.
@@ammoalamo6485 dude it was a silly remark and a joke wtf. Lighten tf up.
@@ammoalamo6485 You have never had the responsibility of millions of dollars worth of equipment have you? As long as he has that it is his, and as long as it is his it will be properly maintained. so other than being a moron, lighten up Francis.
One "miss" in the discussion was that Graf Spee had a distillation system to take bunker fuel and convert it into lighter fractions to be burned in her diesel engines. That system was damaged in the battle and could not be repaired in a few days so she was effectively toast when forced to leave temporary safe harbour.
A lot of the earlier diesel were able to run on basically crude oil! (Heavy Crude)
In fact a lot of supertankers's diesels run on the Middle East "Sweet Light" Crude... they run it through filters and separators. (The separators remove both water and debris.)
@@timengineman2nd714 While that may be, I’m guessing that burning bunker oil in diesels would cause them to operate at a much lower efficiency and possibly gum them up if done for a prolonged period. The British cruisers, which were faster even under normal conditions, could have just tailed her and radioed her position until Renown arrived to pound her to scrap.
@@timengineman2nd714 Even heavy crude is often FAR lighter than bunker fuels, which are known as "residual fuel oil", basically being what is left over after the light hydrocarbons where removed. So also how in cold conditions aircraft use a "wide cut" fuel, meaning its a wider portion of the range to include lighter oils than normal JetA kerosene does, thus not freezing or waxing as early, but becoming a larger fire hazard and being less dense (both in absolute terms, and in energy per weight or volume).
Indeed its not just a trick of large marine engines, you can change only the carburetor jet and a lawn mower off sweet crude (it does smoke a bit, but not even worse than using a twostroke mix), while lots of the US sour crude will run without modification in truck engines, just with the hazard that contaminants can cause lubrication issues to the fuel pump, or (if not filtered intensely) block injectors, which are both expensive rebuilds. So why don't people do this? Its expensive, wasting the highest retail markup portion of the fuel oil in an application that doesn't benefit from it, has higher volatility related risks and is harder to control emissions. You can live with that if you had to, but seeing as supply rather than refining has almost always been a bottleneck, nobody is really in that situation.
@@SheepInACart Thank you! (I always thought that "Bunker C" (what the US Navy used to use (before my time) was basically Crude Oil (aka similar in grade to "Pennsylvania dark crude") that had been passed through filters and centrifugal purifiers a few time).
The US Navy now uses DFM (Distillate Fuel, Marine) a NATO standard. From what an "Oil King" on one of my ships told me it was close to #2 Heating Oil or (after the Paraffin had been removed) #2 Diesel Oil, but not quite! I've seen large boilers (USS Saratoga CV-60), Diesel engines (of all sizes), and even Gas Turbines (basically a jet engine in a maritime version) run on DFM.
That's a very important consideration. I heard a similar comment many years ago. Boilers can burn any old crap, but piston engines will gum up if they don't have refined diesel.
"I have an iowa class battleship." A statement only 4 people in the world can make. Well kindasorta.
We all just wish it was still operational and at sea.
@@JRock3091 & suitable for long term heavy sea conditions, that won't break the bow off! ;p
I have a small piece of one. A piece of deck from the Missouri
I have one, sort of.
A plastic model about 18 inches long so I guess a 1/500 scale.
I have sunk an Iowa class battleship.
A sentence spoken by nobody ever.
As an adendum to the Graf Spee, when she was scuttled in the River Plate a lot of her was still above water, British Intelligence, through a Uraguayian front company purchased the salvage rights for £14,000 and recovered her radar and fire control equipment which were examined in detail and information passed back to London, the Range Finder is still in Montevedio on display
I find it intriguing that the BB Missouri Museum Curator did not know about the huge disparity between American and all other FC Systens in the planet!!! Our first Salvo should at the very least be a straddle, if not getting one or more hits and the second salvo should have at least a few hits on a Cruiser sized target!
German ships began to receive FuMO 22 Seetakt (Sea Tactical) radar from 1938 on everything from destroyer up. The German Navy Signals Branch under the Physicist Admiral Freiherr von Kunhold invented radar in 1932 achieving detection of both and aircraft slightly before the British (Wattson Watt). It was an outgrowth of sonar work intended to aim guns. Incidentally the US and UK invented radar around the same time all interdependently the British moved a bit faster as the relaxed their requirements and used longer wavelengths as they were mostly interested in detecting aircraft whereas the Germans focused on naval fire control that came out of attempts to use passive and active sonar for fire control. By the time the Battle of Denmark Straights happened between PoW and Bismark the British Type 284 and FuMO 23 had radar of approximate equal capacity. The Tirpitz, following Bismarck by 4 months upgraded the FuMo 23 radar to FuMo 26 and had full blind fire capability due to lobe switching.
@@neoconshooter this video was made by the Battleship New Jersey curator, and his assesment of salvo accuracy is more correct than yours.
Well, the US built ships that were specifically designed to counter ships like the Graf Spee and other pocket battleships. The Alaska class large cruisers. Slightly bigger than the Graf Spee, they had nine 12" main guns, 12 5" guns, 56 40MM and 34 20 MM guns. 9" belt armor, 12.8" turret faces and 4" deck armor. 33 knot flank speed and 12,000 nautical miles at 15 knots.
Alaska only slightly bigger? Double the tonnage!
@@drittal nearly triple.
@@drittal Probably referring to armament... or perhaps length & beam.
The Alaska's brand new 12 inch 50 caliber guns fired a super heavy 1,140 pound AP shell that had the same kinetic performance as the older 14 inch 50 caliber guns of the New Mexico class battleships. The Alaska could have defeated all three German Panzerschiffe's at the same time with little difficulty.
@@Bellthorian Ring up All Ahead Flank and just cut one off, or at worst, maneuver so that it is the only one within range and shoot it up! You don't have to kill it, just render it unable to effectively shoot back!!
Then in a kinda "Rinse and Repeat" go after the next one, and then run down the last one, sink it. Turn around and finish off the last 2!!!
The thought of an Iowa-class running around doing commerce raiding is frankly terrifying for a prospective Japanese or german empire. The amount of forces required to not just overwhelm her, but to cover enough ocean to find her, and to make sure that, if you do, you can at least keep her busy while the rest of the force steams to the scene with their fastest pace, is astounding.
It would take quite a chunk of the Kido Butai at its peak, or maybe all the Kongos backed up by a carrier division. The Iowa's were really monstrously powerful ships given their speed, endurance and power.
I don't think anything short of an aircraft carrier could have successfully engaged an Iowa.
Like most of the US weapons, her enemies could not afford the Iowa class. Japan had a pathetic industrial potential; significantly inferior to Italy. Basically the US made a ship that could beat them ever which way, and said, what do you think about that? After aircraft carriers became the peak ship, the US made dozens. Very hard to imagine how the Japanese could counter any of this. As Yamamoto said, he could maintain the initiative for a few months, but with no real prospects after that.
@@stevenpace892 Japan's industrial potential was significant. You can't build aircraft carriers or battleships like the Yamato without it. The problem was that they didn't have easy access to the resources necessary to maintain their industrial capacity, which was what led to the war in the first place. Competing with the U.S. on a full war footing was never a winning proposition, but neither was being slowly starved of oil. Japan was in a difficult position no matter how you look at it.
@@Lennis01 I agree Japan had "significant" industrial potential and agree Japan had big issues with resources, but my point was their industrial output put them at the bottom of the major players. Even with infinite resources, including oil (which they had almost none) they still would have been the weakest of the major war powers. They built a sizeable navy over a very long period; those ships were not replaceable. People underestimate the imbalance in industry between the US and Japan. Japan was an ant industrial base against a bear, AND shortages of almost everything.
Great to see you cover Graf Spee.
Battle Of The River Plate has been one of my all time favourite films since my (long ago!) childhood, along with The Cruel Sea - both excellent films.
I have personally seen the Graf Spee, and by that I mean the tops of the stacks and some of the mast protruding from the water.
I saw her when I passed only about 100-200 yards away when my ship (Charles F. Adams-class guided missile destroyer) passed it on our way into Montevideo harbor to tie up to the pier in August of 1989.
That must've been a real nice liberty call back when you were in, in 1989.
@@mitchslotnick1850 1989 was a Very Good Year, for everyone that wasn't a Soviet Oligarch, or Dependent of Same ...
I was active duty USMC in the 80s. Reagan was my boss and life was grand in all respects.
@@mitchslotnick1850 It was.
The Uruguayan people are terrific.
@@mitchslotnick1850 Testify!
The best time of all to be on active duty.
I saw the title and my first thought was "Why is Ryan kicking puppies?"
still thinking that
Because I have seen a lot of people ask what about “X” ship against New Jersey in comments either on his channel or others…. So he gives us a video.
Maybe his choices were Graf Spee or three drunk Australians with Goose guns in a rowboat?
Late war battleship vs early war armed mechant raider. It was never gonna be a fair fight.
The New Jersey isn’t a late war Battleship she was ordered and laid down just a year after Germany invaded Poland and well before the US entered the war. The reason she wasn’t commissioned sooner was after Pearl Harbor and especially Midway Battleships weren’t a priority. The correct comparison would be during the Washington Naval and Versailles Treaties and post Treaties.
In no way were the Panzershiffe armed merchant raiders
@@jakegrant5698 It’s what it was designed to do, my guy. It’s a fast, heavily armed, heavily armored cruiser which could:
A. Catch convoys
B. Outgun their escorts
C. Dab on merchant vessels
D. Force their expected enemies to dedicate valuable battleships or heavy cruisers to convoy escorts rather than other missions, as the battleships or heavy cruisers would be the only things that would (in theory, on paper) outmatch the Deutschland class in these scenarios.
The idea of all of this is to stretch the numerically superior Royal Navy as thin as humanly possible, allowing the German Navy local numerical parity or superiority. Or at least make it less outnumbered. In practice this didn’t work out so well, as their surface fleet got curbstomped by both sea and air power, the latter being something very few were expecting to be quite so powerful.
@@loganb7059 Diesel powered for long range. That's a particularly important attribute for a commerce raider.
Only a fool prepares to make a fight against an enemy fair. The object is to outclass them, like sending Warspite up the fjord to Narvik. No more destroyers were lost after 15" fire cleared the field of opposition.
Let us just say this, the Graf Spee had the official motto of being able to "Outgun anything that can catch her, and outrun anything that can outgun her." This is with the 6 11.1 inch guns (2 x 3 gun turrets) on deck and 29 knots top speed. Iowas have 9 16" main guns (3 x 3 gun turrets) on deck and 33 Knots top speed. Also, Graf Spee was armored like a light cruiser and Iowa was armored like a battleship. There is only one way it ends. Done.
EDIT: Apparently people have some weird misconceptions about my statement here (which, please note, I have not adjusted, this edit is only an addendum). Here is for any who do not understand reading past the quote from the crew of the Graf Spee: the Iowa Class has heavier armament and is faster than the Graf Spee. The Graf Spee's guns could only have done damage to things like the conning tower (not including the Citadel), 5 inch guns, and deck implacements of an Iowa. Much of the deck armor of an Iowa is thicker than the belt armor of a Graf Spee, or even the turret armor (6 inch deck armor for the Iowa, 3.9 inch belt armor and 5.5 inch turret armor for the Graf Spee). That is not even mentioning the 12.1 inch belt armor of an Iowa. Graf Spee is completely outclassed here, as Ryan says, and I was stating the obvious _when the video was premiering_. And no, I did not look up what I said when I commented, I went from memory as Naval history, particularly around WWII, is a hobby of mine and I can pretty accurately remember weird outliers like this. (By the by, when I state that that Graf Spee is armored like a light cruiser, I mean she is armored similarly to a light cruiser like the Cleveland Class, who is actually more heavily armored in some places than the Graf Spee).
I do think that if the Graf Spee could have gotten in close for a torpedo run she could have had a snowballs chance of winning, but the conditions for that would be very odd, and have a slim chance of confluences.
There is also Iowa’s superior radar and fire control system.
Not to mention, NJ would of no doubt had cruisers and destroyers with her.
26 knots, according to Wikipedia.
Well there is a 10 year difference in construction soooooo
But even when built, they knew that there were some ships that could do both. The Renowns and Hood to name just 3. Then the Dunkerques came slightly after. Comparing these two is a bit off...maybe if all three Panzerschiffe meet ONE Iowa, it might be a fair match..but one on one? Could 18x28 cms do enough damage from all sides, to kock out 9x40,6 cms? I assume that a Panzerschiff hit by a full 9x40.6 broadside will just topple over and capsize.
Would be very interesting to see a comparison between the German Pocket Battleships and the US Alaska.
that would be a potentially very similar comparison and contrast
I was captivated by BRP as a kid, intrigued by Graf Spee and the heroic Exeter. Excellent video, thank you. I saw the Iowa in NYC in 1984, awesome, my favourite class of battleship.
This guy is an awesome curator and a good public speaker. I love his vids
You must be seeing the videos where they had Charlton Heston do a voice over. Too many umms and ahhs
You are very talented as a speaker, and interestingly presenting interesting topics I wouldn't have considered, and I enjoy your regular uploads, so thanks!
All BB NJ would need to do is launch a spotter plane & stay out of the Graf Spees' torpedo range. Not too hard to imagine what 16inch high capacity shells would do to Graf Spee when you consider what 6inch and 8inch shells did to Graf Spee at the River Plate battle .
It would be like the Green Bay Packers going up against your local High School Football team .
NJ is better than Graf Spee in every concievable way apart from Graf Spee having torpedoes. NJ had the speed and firepower to kill Graf Spee very badly without NJ even getting a scratch.
Go Pack Go
It's like a top tier professional women's soccer team going up against a high school boy's team ... oh
@@shoominati23 Hahahaha 😄👍
Or the Tampa Bay Bucs going up against the Green Bay Packers lol
Welded hull was a neat approach for warship construction. 15% weight savings means a lot, especially when there were treaties governing warship displacement. I do like the Dunkerque-class battleships, for the unique layout. It's too bad those weren't able to see better use during the war.
To follow up on a question at the end of the chat, the Diesel engines were direct drive not Diesel Electric (meaning Diesel generators powering electric motors attached to the shafts), which were usually less fuel efficient than direct drive in those days.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutschland-class_cruiser
I didnt realise just how close these ships got to each other during exercises etc. Those black and white films are amazing and I hope that one day someone gets round to changing them into colour. Modern ship captains would die of a heart attack if another ship cut across their bow just 50-100 metres away! WW2 Veterans certainly were a breed apart!
Sorry, but and I am now retired but we did that all the time. Indeed for UNREP we are about 30m apart tops. So. Nope we do not have heart attacks. It is what we do
I can live without the colour but I do appreciate them cleaning up the film and getting the frame rate right.
During the battle, HMS Exeter lost her ability to fire her 8" & 4" guns (~203mm & ~102mm). She turned away and later let the Commander Afloat know that she got a single 8" and a single 4" back into firing condition! Requested instructions on when, where, how the senior officer wanted them to reengage!!! (Shades of Nelson!!! Ready to put his ship alongside the enemy since he realized how vital it was to stop the KMS Graf Spee!!)
He never laid a finger on me guvnor! I've still got a couple of guns, it's not a problem. The Royal Navy at its finest.
Royal Navy tactics where a pretty much standing order to engage enemy regardless.
Multiple events where turned by plucky, determined and brave destoryers and Crusiers.
@@alexh3974 One lesser known fact about the hunt for KMS Bismark is that when they located her, near the end of the chase, the Admiralty didn't send orders for a destroyer squadron to go after the Bismark (mainly to harass her, but hey!, If enough torpedos hit and sank her they wouldn't object!!!)
Instead, when debating about what order to give the Commander of these 5 destroyers, a friend of the Commander simply sent out the Bismark's location, speed and heading!!
The squadron harassed the Bismark all night long. And I think that she didn't hit any of them, but of course a near miss with a 15" shell will do damage to a "tin can".
This caused the Bismark's gun crew to be tired and a few guns having limited ammo supply!
@@timengineman2nd714
Intesting, Thankyou.
Yes, her crew though some best they had, where not best state having been dogged, persued, harassed and hunted for multiple days straight by 50+ warships.
Yet Royal Navy soon as one group grew low on fuel or ammo another fell into attack. Be it planes, ships small or large.
Bismark was powerful, more powerful than most her huntere but the pack had numbers and stamina.
@@alexh3974 Another fact is that the PBY Catalina that spotted her did Not have a US Naval Officer aboard her (edit: aboard her as an observer).....
She was a US Navy airplane with a US Navy crew aboard!!! (There was an RN Instructor aboard her, but that was the only British person). This was so that the US got some combat training prior to our entry into the war, which FDR felt that it would only be a matter of time!
Also, the US Coast Guard Cutter that almost got attacked by the Swordfish torpedo planes. was on weather duty....
But she also was under orders to always be close enough to the KMS Bismark so that every time she gave a weather report with her position, they had an approximate location of the Bismark!!!!!!!
The Panzerschiffe were terrific inasmuch as a ship that can walk away from anything it can't absolutely rubble has been a successful concept since The Original Six Frigates, especially for situations where you're against more powerful opponents. They're wildly successful inasmuch as significant resources were wasted in the creation of hard counters, which was more or less by accident, but undeniable. A weapon need never be fired to be deemed a success, if it makes the enemy do something he wouldn't've, otherwise.
What worked for those six frigates failed in throughout the twentieth century. The Brits decided that it wasn't necessary to build counters, just use small squadrons of smaller but faster older cruisers.
@@Matt_The_Hugenot Only an exceptional enemy will be able to put together such squadrons and have them be everywhere, and that's still a lot of resources to have to use for the purpose. That Germany decided to fight the one enemy who could do that doesn't reflect poorly on the ships.
@@Lazarus7000 These ships were designed for commerce raiding, a strategy only effective against countries reliant on maritime trade. In this period this meant countries with global possessions. All such potential adversaries, other than the determinedly neutral Portugal and the pacifist Netherlands, had navies well capable of using the same strategy the Brits used successfully. In short Germany invested a substantial part of its naval resources in ships which had no reasonable opponent, an appalling waste.
I mean Hood was already faster and more powerful not to mention aircraft carriers.
The British didn’t even respond they only built the KGVs once the Scharnhorsts were a thing. The French responded tho.
Slower than a fast battleship and armored like a cruiser. They were death traps.
These are my favourite type of video that Ryan does, really interesting and always fair.
I really like the Queen Elizabeth class and would love to hear Ryan's thoughts on these.
I'm 63 , I commend you for your extensive knowledge you have for such a young guy. If only more of your generation had followed your steps this country would be far less divided than it is today . Every year we lose our precious veterans and every year our true history is being trashed by communists. I'm glad to have lived in the period of time that I have. Thankyou for your great love of what you do.
Lol, communists? There are about 7 actual communists in the United States today. There are millions of neo-fascists who are trying to trash this country and our history. At 60, I can say this with confidence.
I love the Graf Spee... such a beautiful ship! Clearly not capable against an Iowa, though.. not surprising.
Thank you, I was based in Wilmington with USACE and visited the USS North Carolina. I enjoyed your presentation. I had a model of a pocket battleship when in grade school. Appreciated its sleek design. You have made my appreciation of the pocket battleship richer.
The Iowa's had a few things that would defeat both Japan and German battleship it was speed and accuracy with the use of radar
V1A2 if it were ever completed, Elektro U boats perhaps,
True, after US ships got radar guided, they took over the night. They could sit back, and pound enemy ships from over the horizon. Radar fire was less accurate, but they could pound them until they ran out of ammunition, with no ability for the enemy to effectively respond.
The Germans had laid down the two H-class battleships at the same time as the Iowas. They ripped them up to make u-boats instead after 4000 and 8000 tons of keel was laid. Basically they had 16 inch guns, were 30% bigger and had more Armour, individual radar on the FLAK guns planed. They used Diesels to get great range (about twice that of the Iowa). They would have entered service at the same time as the Iowas. The Tirpitz, which entered service only 4 months after Bismark had full blind fire capability from its FuMO 26 radar while Iowa was still on the slipway. The FuMO 26 radar was a little weak (range about 25km) but by the 1942/43 the Seetakt radar had been increased 16 fold in power for shore installations. It looks now like this radar, known as FuMO 32 was installed on the Tirpitz (she spotted the incoming air raid at 150km) around middle of 1944.
-So Tirpitz could have spotted Iowas over the horizon, aimed at them and spotted shell splash. The Tirpiz also had FuMO 81 microwave PPI radar and a Hohtenweil PPI radar.
-The Germans were not completely outclassed, they would have detected the Iowas by radar over the visual horizon to the radar horizon to within about 0.25 degrees and 100m and they would have spotted shell splash. Maybe not as well as the Iowa but pretty good. They had only one battleship and it was damaged after nearly 20 attempts.
Repulse and Renown (especially after rebuilding) could easily overhaul them (The pocket battleships are credited in most sources with 26kts.). In the Norweigan campaign Renown reached 29kts. in mountainous seas.
I would back the 2nd Generation WW1 battlecruisers (13.5 inch vessels like Tiger, Princess Royal and their Kongo derivatives etc) against Graff Spee everytime
Whereas the Iowas could hit 33+ (I believe New Jersey hit 35 knots on sea trials), with the armor and guns of a full-on battleship (perhaps not the best armor, but still good), plus better fire control than anything the Axis had.
This was basically the use case the RN kept Repulse and Renown around for. Too bad they never got the chance to face off.
@@FS2K4Pilot Well, yes, but the point is that the Iowas weren't in commission at the time. When Graf Spee was cornered by the British cruiser squadron, the Americans didn't actually have any fast battleships of any sort; North Carolina was still under construction in 1939. Comparing USS Iowa to Graf Spee like comparing the nuclear-powered USS Enterprise to the USS Midway.
@@Cailus3542 No, it seems like the point was that this thing’s toast six ways to Sunday against an Iowa. Commissioning dates were never mentioned.
The cruise of the Graf Spee was a replay on a somewhat smaller scale of the cruise of the CSS Alabama.
And yes there is "Lucky Jack Aubrey" and the dear HMS Surprise/
Good analysis of the pocket battleships which briefly did some damage to commerce shipping. I read the book account 30 years ago and it was interesting how the British trailed Graf Spey just out of range of her main battery. Of course they were no contest with the Iowas who would have torn them apart even if they got the first rounds off ahead of an Iowa. Enjoyed your presentation.
I'm not a Canadian lolol but I do approve of history and people tipping the hat to valiant figures of history. There is a petition to get Langsdorff Drive's name changed because people cant read a friggen history book past a summary or understand how awesome it is to live on a street named after a historic badass......... shit I live on Essex road......the rest of the streets in my adjacent neighborhood are named after U.S. Admirals and Generals. ill try to find a link
Langsdorff always used a military salute, even when others around him were using a fascist salute.
"people cant read a friggen history book past a summary"
Operative words here are 'people don't like to use their brains' and 'too many of us only have the attention span to listen to a sound byte.'
This is true even with older relatives you think would know better!
I've clashed with people online because they DO NOT know how to comprehend things or understand context. It's not worth getting in a yelling match with dummies or people who have the broomstick of ideology far up their ass to use common sense! Leave that to Twitter!
Really interesting to watch it.
I have been following your series for a year now. Great job.
Cpt Kozlowski
This ends badly for Graf Spee
Indeed, besides the huge armor and firepower advantage the Iowa's also have that decisive speed advantage too which would have allowed them to effortlessly chase the Spee down.. In a way the Spee was fortunate to have already met its fate in a way that spared the crew's lives before they had monsters like the Iowa's hunting them.
Ends badly is one way to say epic one sided non-consensual corn holing…
Can’t out run us, sure as shit can’t out shoot us, and our immunity zone is absolutely ridiculous against 11” shells; hope your affairs are in order…
@@justinstout4151 - Corn holing* would seem a lot more appropriate to the other three ships of the class than USS New Jersey. 🌽🌽🌽
*It is a game.
@@tominiowa2513 touche; but I would wager that the finer points of American English colloquialisms would be the last thing on the the Graf Spee crew’s mind about 30 seconds after the MK 8 indicated that it had a firing solution…
@@justinstout4151 - The county I live in has more corn yield than the entire state of New Jersey.
I haven't watched the video yet but I'm pretty sure there's only one possible answer to this one.
A better question might be, how many pocket battleships would it take?
All of them, and I don't think even then they would hurt the New Jersey much. She's just got too long of range and would engage the German cruisers and do considerable damage even before they were able to get in range. I would also think that the Mk 13 high explosive shells could penetrate the armor of the Graf Spee and cause tremendous damage!
@@dundonrl I think you're probably correct.
@@dundonrl Depends on the tactics of approach. Both ships on the same side, sink them one at a time. Closest first.
However, if you get an Iowa between them, getting beaten from both sides and possibly dodging torpedos. Any battleship is going to have difficult time.
@@haroldhenderson2824 The New Jersey (and Iowa) strattled at extreme range the Japanese destroyer Nowaki. The Nowaki was far faster and maneuverable than the Graf Spee cruisers. I don't think it would matter what the German cruisers did, if the New Jersey was aware of them.
It would take enough Panzerschiffe to have some still afloat and in fighting condition after the Iowa ran out of ammunition for the main and secondary batteries.
As it turned out during W.W. # 2 the Pocket Battleships were too slow to operate with larger German fleet units such as Scharnhorst and Gneisenau or Bismarck and Tirpitz. The Admiral Hipper class cruisers would be escorts to the Battleships. Although the diesel engines gave great range in service they could not generate the high speed marine steam turbines such as in the large German battleships or New Jersey for that matter. When you have a 5 knot speed advantage over your opponent and larger , longer ranged main battery you can dictate the battle terms. New Jersey wins by a long shot. Thanks for the video !
The Graf Spee was scuttled in South America.
"I'm comparing her [Graf Spee] to New Jersey because I happen to have New Jersey. I happen to have an Iowa class battleship." How many people can say that? You are a very lucky man! Thanks, by the way, for another great video.
I always love how you say "...because I have in Iowa class battleship" , saying it so easy sounding like it's normal having an Iowa class battleship standing in the backyard.
For Ryan, it just IS normal.
I don't know where Ryan stands in the pecking order of the museum staff organization, probably top 5, I would guess, but there is no doubt that New Jersey is Ryan's baby!
Great video. Loads of fantastic information. Really enjoyed your insight and knowledge on the subject.
Hi, a second thought, viz saving weight by arc welding. It saves the rivet weight yes but much more weight by eliminating the overlap of the plates for riveting. Ingenious these Germans.
I did it in 2 broadsides on Atlantic Fleet. Using the (never built but closest available approximation) HMS Lion (9x16 inch) v Lutzow, the first one set her ablaze, the second set off her magazines.
Hooray. Sure you would have won WW2 in 5 mins single handedly LOL here is your Navy cross: 🎖
Captain Langsdorf was perhaps the most chivalrous of the WW2 German ship commanders , every ship he defeated , he ensured that the crews were treated fairly and properly even looked after , he sent several of the crews off to internment on some of the captured merchant ships manned by his own crew , and most of the Captains of these vessels spoke Very highly of him after . He may have been a thorn in our side and posed a significant threat , but none the less He really was a Hero with genuine human values , He most certainly was Not a Fascist .
Thoroughly decent fellow. Took care to be "unNazi" all the time.
Given to me by an old sailor ( his intention was to present it to a new HMS Exeter if they built one)and in pride of place is a small mounted piece of planking from HMS Exeter and attached to it is a piece of shrapnel from the Graf Spee . Hans Langsdorf was a Bavarian gentleman , always allowing crews of ships to abandon them before sinking them . When he committed suicide he did so on the German Imperial flag and not the Swastika flag .🇬🇧
Pocket battleships were just heavy cruisers that carried 11 inch guns instead of the usual 8 inch. Their 11 inch guns would pose no serious threat to any modern battleship. No contest
I would bet on any of the 2nd Generation WW1 Battlecruisers (Lion class. Tiger, Kongo, Deflinger) against the Graff Spee, The 3rd gen Battlecruisers like Renown and Hood would be overkill as for any of the treaty era and beyond battleships (KGV, North Carolina, Dunkerque and newer) would be the most uneven fight in history
Not quite true, the AP shells for the 11 inch guns could theoretically penetrate the armored belt of almost any battleship ever actually put into service, albeit at a very short range. This includes the Iowas. The pocket battleships themselves however don't have the armor to take a fight with a battleship at any range.
No serious threat, until the New Jersey ate 3 torpedoes from the Graf Spee. Guns are not everything.
@@twotone3471 The G7a torpedo could reach 7.5km while moving at 40kts, meaning it could be launched at a distance of 13.7km from directly ahead of New Jersey if she is running at full speed. This is the absolute maximum range and it's still well within visual range and most certainly within range of New Jersey's guns. These torpedoes don't have any homing capability and would need about an hour to reach the target. That is assuming they get there at all because they were not exactly reliable. To put it simply, torpedoes miss and/or fail and Graf Spee enjoys a light shower of 16 inch shells.
@@twotone3471 Somebody overdosed himself with World of Warships... Well, that game has absolutely nothing to do with reality. Brawling battleships and cruisers were not a thing, especially not with torpedoes. The only instance a battleship launched torpedoes against another ship was the Rodney against the Bismarck at the end of the battle, when the fate of the german ship was already set.
About the guns: those 11" guns were not the same that those on the Scharnhorsts (28 cm SK C/34). Deutchland-class ships guns (28 cm SK C/28) had shorter barrel, smaller chamber volume, used lighter and shorter projectiles with smaller bursting charge (at least the APC) and to top this the propellant charge was smaller too. Not even the stronger shells were able to penetrate the main deck of an Iowa (less then 3" of penetraton capability vs the 6" main deck of an Iowa). The SK C/28's shells had a bit higher impact angle at the same distance, but thanks to the lighter shell the impact velocity and the penetration were even lower then of the C/34's shells. If the NJ was closer then 30 km, then the plunging fire from the guns of the Spee were uneble to defeat even the 1.5" bomb deck (or weather deck, use what you like). And if you take consideration of the armored belt's slope and the impact angle, the Spee's guns were able to penetrate NJ's belt, but only if she was closer then 7 km. From that disttance almost the muzzle blast of the 16"/50 guns could blow off Spee's superstructure. And from that distance, Spee must whitstand not only the main guns of NJ, but half of the heavy AA armamant too. 5"/38 guns could devastate the german ship from that distance too. Not just by the penetration cababilities, but with sheer fire rate. In a matter of minutes those guns could saw-off all of Spee's superstructure. On paper the german 15 cm guns were nice, but as in the Bismarck case the mount was inadequate for almost anything. And there were only 4 per side on the Spee, with 6-8 RPM fire rate. Compare this to the radar directed fast moving twin turret mounts of the 5"/38's with 15 RPM or even higher fire rate. And NJ has 5 of those in each side. And the other thing: Spee had 150 rounds for each of those guns max, meanwhile NJ had 500 fot each barrel. Even in this comparison the Spee is absolutely inferior.
The weight savings of welded seams over riveted seams is far more than the weight of the rivets themselves - the mated/flanged fittings when welded do not need anywhere near the bearing/surface area as they do when riveted and therefore the parts themselves can be noticeably lighter.
Love this video. Can't wait for New Jersey to meet the Pocket Yamatos aka B-65 large cruisers.
Another wonderful presentation, Ryan. A few thoughts if I may...
1. I believe the weight saved with welding instead of riveting is not just due to eliminating the weight of the rivets but also eliminating the extensive framing they require.
2. If I were to design these "pocket battleships," I would put both the turrets at the stern. Since they can outrun anything they can't fight this would be the obvious place to put them to defend against pursuers and the speed would be sufficient to allow them to attack any commerce ships which would typically be slower. Further the weight saved by combining the armored magazines could be put to other uses.
3. At the time of their design, it would seem that the existence of scouting aircraft and radio would have already made surface raiders obsolescent.
Thanks again!
15:40. Seems you forgot something quite important: Graf Spee had her fuel processing plant destroyed in the battle. She couldn't get back go Germany without it.
Leaving open the question of why that was outside the armour protection in the first place, mind...
@@AdamSmith-kq6ys Not enough space. Armour is heavy, even more so if you are constrained by weight limitations as Graf Spee was. The only things protected by the armor belt was the vital parts of machinery and the magazines. The rest of the ship was usually just armored against splinters.
@@higfny Oh agreed, but it appears that the fuel treatment plant _was_ a vital part of the machinery, no? Perhaps not _recognised_ as such by her KM designers, but nevertheless _Spee_ was doomed by it's loss.
@@AdamSmith-kq6ys One could argue that for the role she was used, as a long range cruiser, that was vital to her mission. But ships of the line was constructed with a mission in mind where they would fight a battle and then quite quickly be in contact with friendly forces or return to base. Think WW1 and Jutland.
The problem was that if the ship can only protect the absolutly most vital things, if not she will be too heavy. So its propulsion machinery and "things that make the ship go boom if hit (i.e. magazines). Everything else gets less protection.
There is a ton of stuff on a ship she can't be without for more than a few days, but if "say afloat and fight for the next 12 hours" is the only thing that matters (that's whats typically reffered to as vital), you can make the protection around those spaces much better. That was the "all or nothing" scheme pioneered by the US Navy in WW1 and became the standard after that conflict. Older ships did have more armor on other parts, but the vitals where then less protected.
Graf spee signals “send help” because they are screwed
Yeah because was the British that ripped them apart America wasn't even in the war at the time
Pocket battleships versus the Iowa class is like bringing a knife to a gun fight! Over in mere seconds.
One way or the other. There is something called the 21' rule. Basically if you have someone with a knife within 21' of someone with a (holstered) sidearm then the guy with the knife can rush and stab the other guy before he can react. Of course you're not going to get that close to a 58,000 ton radar equipped battleship in a 10,000 ton commerce raider, so the guy with the gun already has it out and aimed at you.
@@crazyguy32100 So, the Tueller rule is important (the 21' thing) but circumstantial. As a Parole/Probation cop I often have to be withing 21' of dangerous people with access to knives, but there are means of mitigation.
The best way to mitigate that risk would probably be to find a safer job, but I digress...
@@crazyguy32100 that’s why I made the analogy!
Overzealous
Graf Spee was my first love studying them in some WW2 books my babysitter's husband had.
18:29 There are not many people who can genuinely say " I have an Iowa Class Battleship ".
and he likes that flex, he's used it before
Yep, only four people can say that...
The film-maker needed to make the film to pay for the New Jersey's upkeep?
Ryan is building up a phrase catalog comparable with Drach’s. “Phallic symbols of your dictatorship” in this video.
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Interesting video despite the obvious answer to the initial question. The naval footage was very cool.
I’m going to repeat a suggestion found elsewhere in comments. How about comparing ships other than New Jersey? Someone mentioned doing a video of Graf Spee against HMS Renown. I think that be a great video to do.
The ONLY chance for Graf Spee was to stay out in the ocean, undetected. If an Iowa-class gets close, one on one, it ends the same way. When Graf Spee got caught by three ships, she couldn't sink any of them fast enough to gain a "weight of shell" advantage.
Actually it would be worse!!! On hit from a 16" shell would do more damage than several hits of 8"! The battle would be similar to a high school age boxer going up against a world champion of the same weight class!
@@timengineman2nd714 Actually, the AP round wouldn't be needed. The Mark 13 HE round was designed to penetrate light armor (looking at you GS) and concrete and had a 155 pound bursting charge. They would have done horrendous execution.
....if you'll excuse the triteness...."Splat" and then "Boom" sums it up nicely.
Good work and analysis as always though team.
The Germans built some gorgeous ships back then. Incredible lines and proportions.
How would the Graf Sper compare to the Des Moines, Salem class American heavy cruisers with the automatic 8 inch guns or the Alaska class? Would love to hear your opinion on those match ups.
The most interesting comparison would be an engagement between the Graf Spee and the Repulse (or Renown).
Repulse had the advantage of existing to fight Graf Spee and was designed to counter commerce raiders.
Iowa hadn’t even been laid down when Graf Spee was defeated.
@@michaelwise1224 Repulse/Renown were designed in 1916 long before the PBs were ever thought about. But your comment does bare some weight in the modernization that the ships went through.
I would contend that Renown, although designed as a battleship, was redesigned in construction as a battlecruiser and thus of a type similar to Invincible that overwhelmed commerce raiders at the Falklands.
I think a valid comparison of Iowa to Deutschland class ships would be in the shore bombardment role (which happened) rather than ship on ship (that didn’t happen).
well the Captain of the graf spee thought that repulse was closing in on the river plate, and it seems it did factor in his decision to scuttle, truth is even the renown class was too much for graf spee.
@@b_de_silva Yes, the captain of the Graf Spee did scuttle his damaged ship (also low on ammo). He believed that the Brits had overwhelming force (including a carrier) awaiting him. I still think that in a one-on-one the fight would be closer than most would think.
Looking at some of these "what if" scenarios and other comparisons. I wonder how the Battle of Jutland might have played out if we replaced the battleships of either side with the same weight of Iowa class battleships or even just replace the lines with the four Iowas. Unless mismanaged the Iowas should have been able to engage earlier, more accurately, and even controlled engagement range but would four be enough to take out either fleet?
There were a lot of British battleships and battlecruisers, replacing the British battleships with the four Iowas is a stretch, although the Iowas would have the advantage of radar.
@@SteveBravy That radar I believe would also allow them to take advantage of better speed and range with bigger guns. I also think they'd have an advantage in protection.
The Graf Spee would be able to do an Iowa Class's superstructure, but would not be able to score a vital hit and defeat the NJ's armored belt. NJ's 16" guns would wreck the Spee in short order.
Engine room not armored
An interesting comparison would be between Graf Spee and a Baltimore Class cruiser being that they have similar displacement.
One of the Graf Spee’s would have made a very desirable museum ship
Well, a good bit of the Admiral Scheer - different class, I know - is buried under a parking lot at Kiel.
@@tomkratman4415 true, but I’ve read Admiral Scheer was gutted and partially scraped before being buried. Never seen exact details.
How bout a video of the Graf spe versus the the USS Alaska
I have a video suggestion for Ryan: If you were the Admiral of the Germany Navy, how would you have used your limited fleet of battleships, cruisers, and submarines to fight the British, French, and United States with some hope of success.
I know they had one Aircraft carrier, but they never bother to utilize it for some reason.
At what point in the war? In 1939 the Germans had only two 11 inch gunned battleships, three 11 inch gunned cruisers, one Hipper Class Cruiser and six light cruisers of somewhat dubious value. Maybe against the French fleet it might be able to stand and fight in 1939 since the Scharnhorsts are superior to the Dunkerque class in everything except gun throw weight. On the other hand the French nearly tripled the Germans numbers of cruisers. The same with destroyers. Even the US Navy in 1939 would have an advantage against the Germans in everything but battleship speed. The British were just overwhelming. They would have stripped the Germans of all their cruisers and destroyers and then sent waves of torpedos at the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau while the Hood threw 15 inch rounds against them.
The Graf Zeppelin was never finished, and as far as i know there were no planes to put on it either.
In short: the Kreigsmarine didn't have a prayer. They were the weakest navy of WW2 after the Soviets. The French navy outmatched them on their own, never mind if you throw in the British. There was simply no circumstance where the Germans could achieve any real success in a naval conflict against such odds. The Italians did much better in the Med but the Regina Marina was trapped there, unable to get past Gibraltar. The best that the Regina Marina could manage was a stalemate against the Royal Navy, and for the Axis, a stalemate wasn't good enough.
@@Cailus3542 pretty much yes.
They didn't use it mostly because it was never completed. Resources were redirected as the war went on and Hitler became disillusioned with Raeder's surface navy.
Another advantage or diesel engines to steam turbines is , that diesel engines can start and run up in just a few minutes, there is no time required to built up sufficient steam pressure for running the turbines, which could last up to 30 minutes.
The New Jersey would wax all three Deutschland class ships at the same time. It wouldn't even be close. Their only chance would to connect with their torpedos. A Baltimore class heavy cruise would defeat the Graf Spee. Even a brooklyn class light cruiser would everwhelm the paper thin armor of the Graf Spee with her 15 QF 6"guns
Ever seen how a pack of wolves attack
@@tomhenry897 Once
Just outside of Painsville Michigan
The interesting question about the pocket battleships is how would they do today? Obviously we would want to upgrade some things, but 6 11" guns would be quite useful for shore bombardment.
Just eager to know: why are we comparing the latest generation of battleship vs a pre War Armored Cruiser from 1934?
Its like comparing the latest F1 car against a rally car from the 90s.
Are we afraid of comparing NJ against something in her era and weight class?
This video is part of a series comparing the Iowa class (and NJ specifically) with all of the WWII battleships and battlecruisers. I agree this one is a bit of a stretch though, since as you said, it’s not even a battlecruisers, just an over-gunned heavy cruiser.
I happen to have an Iowa class battleship 😁. So absurd that that's true. Good stuff as always 👍
Unsure how far you want to take your UA-cam channel, but I would suggest a recording booth or atleast some sound deadning materials mounted when you reccord these talking head videos.
Considering the cost differential between these ships and the other heavy ships in my opinion they would have been better off just building more Deustchlands. They would have had the same impact for a lower cost.
Perhaps with twin 15" .vs. triple 11"
@@timengineman2nd714 The problem would have been registering your target with only four main guns, as the British found with the Courageous class in WW1.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 But with improve fire control (early WW2 wasn't as good as mid or late WW2 but still vastly better than WW1. (Also better visibility since most naval ships were no longer burning coal!)
The Deutchland was the lead ship of Graf Spee's class, later renamed the Lutzow.
I suppose the thing for the French navy is that a ship specifically designed to counter the Deutschland class could also add some extra firepower to a heavy cruiser squadron and maintain the speed of that formation, which could have been useful in the Med, where the Regia Marina was operating, and was pretty big on cruisers.
That's the Dunkerque-class, basically.
In all fairness, I don't think any single gunboat of the time that you could hypothetically pit against an Iowa-class battleship would survive the encounter.
It would be interesting to see what the outcome would have been for an Iowa of a 1v1 with IJN Yamato. I know there has been speculation and logical assumptions, but strange things happen in the fog of war, and it's far from a cut & dried affair IMHO.
9 16" guns vs 6 11" guns plus Graff Spee was scuttled in 1939 Iowa class sailed in 1944. Still I too like to what if. I do prefer it to be more matched in time and type though. Last I heard the Graff Spee was classed as a battlecruiser.
@@patrickgriffitt6551 *Panzerchief (German name) or pocket battleship (British name). They were designed by the Weimar government to replace older pre-dreadnaught on like for like displacements, so was very limited. Nothing to compare them to.
They became commerce raiders as it's about all they were good for once the French built the Dunkerques.
@@frogdude21XXX A Yamato would have likely defeated an Iowa on a clear day with her superb optical fire control. But otherwise it could go either way.
It's also worth noting that Iowas super heavy shells are slow and can be more easily dodged at longer ranges.
At night, on a foggy day or in smoke Iowa would likely win or at least survive due to radar directed fire control.
In very rough seas, I doubt Iowa would do that well. She was designed for calmer seas and her bow could cause issues.
Iowa was much better built and more modern than Yamato, but there's no escaping her being a fair bit smaller, less armoured and with smaller guns than Yamato.
Also the US would be very unlikely to send just 1 Iowa Vs a Yamato. Why even try to give a fair fight when you don't need to? Quantity is a quality of its own, which makes pure 1v1 comparisons a bit irrelevant a lot of the time.
I'm also not sure if it's worth comparing just the fire control, since Yamato could theoretically have been retrofitted with radar directed fire control, so you're not actually directly comparing the ships.
Yes, it was the end, and the peak of large naval guns. Nothing from that time, or any other, would ever be able to outgun it. Modern ships could defeat it, but not without use of modern torpedoes and/or missles and aircraft. Of course modern weapons are not designed for targeting such ships, and taking it out would require some lateral thinking. An enemy would probably be satisfied with a "mission kill", basically make render it inoperable by killing all of its electrical systems.
Ryan just happens to have an Iowa Class battleship with him.
Unfair! How about New Jersey vs. Wasa?
HMS Captain vs. Vasa (or Wasa) - first one to not capsize wins.
I think the pocket battleships where actually a faithful contemporary construction of a coastal defence battleship as was intended by the treaty of Versailles. This accounts for the 11 inch guns. The diesels selected to save weight and draft just happened to be very fuel efficient which gave them the dual use as commerce raiders. Very successful design as it was able to damage and drive off 22000 tonnes of cruisers at the river plate.
I used to think that but I think it was an ingenious way for the Germans to create warships that could be a potential threat while still following the treaty. I don’t think the Allies even thought about the use of tonnage like this when they held Germany to the rules at Versailles. If they had they would have put a speed limit of 22 knots on future large ships. They came out at a perfect time. The Brits only had 3 battlecruisers capable of countering them and while a Renown class and of course HMS Hood were more than a match for a Deutschland they couldn’t be everywhere. If the Admiralty had been aware of what could have been thought up maybe they would have kept HMS Tiger and the two Lion class BCs around in reserve just for such an emergency.
I agree almost completely with you.
These ships make only sense in context, since they are inferior to a true Battlecruiser, like Renown or Repulse (even Tiger).
Germany desperately needed to replace the Pre-Dreadnoughts that they were permitted to keep under the Treaty of Versailles.
As you mentioned they had to stick to the limits in the Treaty, which were likely intended to limit construction to coastal defense ships like the Sverige class.
In a strict military sense faster, 8 in gunned ships might have been more useful (as WW2 shows), but they are not capital ships and could not have represented interwar Germany in the same way.
Coastal defense ships were not usually built for speed or range.
uffffff I had this question in my mind but I didn't bother to make it since common the real question is how many Deutschlands would be needed to sink an Iowa!
If you could get an ambush, however many it would take to get in effective torpedo range. With guns, never. A Panzerschiff could be point blank and still not get through an Iowa's belt.
Did Iowa class battle ships rivit the armor plates or weld the armor plates like the German "pocket" battleships?
Jersey has bigger guns, more armor, higher top speed, and better radar.
Pretty sure how this is going to end.
well one thing to keep in mind is that Graf Spee has torpedoes, so she could do a decent chunk of damage if she played her cards right.
@@8vantor8 torpedoes only worked up to a certain range. so as long as NJ uses her superior speed to stay far away she would win no matter what.
@@CalvinTheCarnotaurus that's why i said if Graft Spee plays her cards right, one can always get lucky or unlucky.
@@8vantor8 Depending on exactly what torpedo the Graf Spree is caring their maximum range is somewhere between 7,000 and 10,000 yards. Effect range the Jersey's main battery is 30,000 yards plus. If the Jersey has 1945 radar then Graf Spree is dead before she gets anywhere near torpedo range. If somehow Jersey exist in 1939 with 1939 radar and fire control, then Graf Spree _MIGHT_ sneak into torpedo range if she has _VERY_ favorable weather conditions. Even if she gets a good torpedo hit the best case for her is forcing the Jersey to withdraw.
@@Cholin3947 which is really all you can expect her to do, the whole point of battle cruisers is to out gun everything that is not a battleship, and when a BB shows up they either run or fight if they our number the BB
Ryan, I was remembering the Iowas as having a range of 18,000 nm at 12 knots. Is that accurate, or am I completely wrong? My source is an old History Channel documentary ( I forget the exact title, but it was narrated by Hal Holbrook).
I had read 15,000nm at 15 knots.
KMS Graf Spee could defeat USS Iowa. BB-4 USS Iowa that is.
"Now look, i have this 50ft boat moored down at the marina."
"That's nice, i've got that 860ft battleship down there..."
Ok... thats not even a fight...
Well I think a FAR better comparison would be the Graf Spee vs an Alaska class heavy cruiser. Now that would be interesting!
Agreed. A more interesting comparison. Yet, I don’t think Graf Spee stands much chance here either. Alaska is better armored, faster, and 9 12” guns vs 6 11”.
Graf Spee versus USS Johnston, now that have been a closer match.
Can you do a video on the proposed German H44 class battleship? Love the channel 👍
Lol, the kriegsmarine need all 3 of the pocket BBs and both sharnhorst class BBs to even hope to damage her, lmao
Every German battleship of that time looked like a battle ship.
The Prinz Eugen actually got caught by the Royal Navy , and turned over to to U.S. N. . Her name wasn't changed, however she got a U.S.S. prefix, and American flag.
She was later used in atomic tests in 1946. She had once sailed with the Bismarck during its sea trials in 1940-41.
Oh a "World of Battleships" Gamer ! 😂
anyone else notice that under Ryan's collar and his t-shirt were flickering with the later added waver pattern that was behind him?
My TT wargaming group ran a simulation last week where an Iowa class engaged the Graff Spee, and Admiral Scheer. Both of the German ships went down at long range. I think the A.S got hit and sank in the first round when she was in range of Iowa's guns. The G.S. lasted longer to within G.S. secondary range where she too went to the bottom. During the second simulation A.S. faired better getting into point blank range causing major damage to Iowa before sinking. The G.S. during this action stayed out of range until A.S. sank crippled Iowa and getting crippled herself Iowa sank from G.S. torpedo. G.S. was a total loss with only 1 torpedo launcher remaining.
In a fleet action G.S. will fair better against a larger battleship where she will have other ships to engage with. The key with winning against Iowa class is to use aircraft and subs. A pocket battleship should run away at top speed to avoid the big guns.
On a side note I would love to do a few table top naval simulations on Battleship New Jersey.
@Battleship New Jersey There is a content creator on here that does computer simulations of theoretical battles that has done Iowa class battleships versus Kirovs and Yamato class ships that you may be interested in. You might even be able to get them to do something for you. The content creator is "Grim Reapers".
To sum this video up; New Jersey would beat Graf Spee like a red headed step child.
Be more of a teen
So can throw a punch
Good history and an accurate overview of capabilities.
I have to disagree with Ryan in regards to the Royal Navy being worried about the Graf Spee and her sister ships. They were at worst an annoyance, but by putting one of the older, slower, battleships such as the Revenge Class in a convoy, that convoy was impossible for a Deutschland class to approach. That the Deutschland class were limited to operations in the Baltic highlights just how vulnerable to the Royal Navy they were.
I agree with Ryan that they were in reality armoured cruisers, but in a world that had left the concept of the armoured cruiser behind, and that made them arguably obsolete even when they were launched in 1933. The idea that they'd be able to outgun anything they couldn't outrun didn't hold up even in the design stage given both HMS Hood, and the two Renown Class battle cruisers could easily outrun and outgun the Deutschland class design.
Ironically, the class would have made good convoy escort ships. Their limited top speed wouldn't have mattered as they'd be attached to a slower convoy, and the six 11 inch guns would have been enough to act as a deterrent to any potential surface raider. While very unlikely to win a battle against a battle cruiser or battleship, the 11 inch guns could do enough damage that the surface raider would have to abandon its patrol and return to port for repairs. In most situations, a surface raider would withdraw and seek less dangerous targets.
The British and French assigned four aircraft carriers, three battleships, and sixteen cruiser to hunt Graf Spee.
@@colosseumbuilders4768 There were 4 carriers, 2 battleships, a battle cruiser, and 16 cruisers assigned the task of patrolling and engaging the Graf Spee if found during the three months she was on her war patrol. It sounds like a lot, I agree, but the headline figure over emphasises the true scale of the hunt.
While all those ships were assigned orders including the order to patrol and intercept Graf Spee, they were not all deployed at the same time, or in the South Atlantic. If they were, Dunkerque wouldn't have been in a position be involved in the operation to counter Scharnhorst and Gneisenau in November 1939 by taking up a patrol area near Iceland. Further, that it was going to take any capital ships several days to reach the River Plate estuary despite the Royal Navy knowing the Graf Spee was in the South Atlantic suggests that those ships were busy elsewhere and had to be reassigned to the South Atlantic to join the blockade of Graf Spee in Montevideo Harbour.
It is also worth noting that it's early in the war, and both the Royal Navy and Marine Nationale were keen to give their capital ship crews experience of war operations, both to boost levels of readiness, and for crew moral reasons.
Overall, a more accurate statement would be that there were 4 aircraft carriers, 2 battleships, a battle cruiser, and 16 cruisers assigned to commerce protection in the Atlantic in late 1939, and for most of that time, the Graf Spee was the only active surface raider in that area.
The British didn’t have enough ships to do convoy and combat
Which do you drop
Great video but slight correction, the admiral in question at 3:25 isn't Wolfgang Zenker, but rather Hans Zenker.
This isn’t really a competition more like clubbing a seal.
No that's Tuesday
A seal big enough to bite back
What would be a modern battleship? Missile battery and one turret, with a helicopter deck on the sturn? Im interested on your thoughts on this.
Short Answer: USS New Jersey
The Deutschland-Class Heavy Cruisers were built specifically to outfight any ship able to outrun it and outrun any ship able to outfight it. This was in the context of the early 1930s, where standard battleships were only capable of maxing out at around 24 knots, while the Deutschland-Class class was capable of 28 knots. Heavy cruisers typically were capable of 32 knots of speed, but only had 8-inch guns and modest armor (between 3 and 5 inches), making them quite vulnerable to the Deutscland-Class's 11-inch guns, and light cruisers and destroyers would be quickly blown away by those 11-inch guns.
The only ships capable of seriously threatening the Deutschland class were Battlecruisers like HMS Hood, Renown, Repulse, or Japanese battlecruisers like Kongo, because they had 15 inch guns and were capable of 30 knots. They were vulnerable to the Deutschland class in return due to their weak armor, but it would be a question of whether the battlecruisers landed critical damage first against the Deutschlands.
With the advent of Fast Battleships (younger battleship classes with much faster speeds, including the King George V, Scharnhorst, Bismarck, Yamato, Vanguard, Littorio, Richelieu, Dunkerque, North Carolina, South Dakota, Iowa), the one key strength the Deutschlands had to avoid destruction was gone. Iowa class battleships are capable of 32 knots, meaning they can rundown the Deutschland class cruisers if they spot them.
The Deutschlands only have six 11-inch guns to the nine 16-inch guns of Iowa class battleships.
Iowa class battleships have 6 inches of deck armor and 12.1 inches of belt armor. The Deutschlands only have 3 inch of deck armor and 4 inches of belt armor.
New Jersey would easily penetrate Deutschland class ships with high-explosive shells, armor piercing shells being unneeded, and these would cause maximum internal damage to the relatively smaller and lightly armored heavy cruisers. The Deutschland class could theoretically do some damage in return, but only with armor piercing shell and a lucky hit to the more lightly armored parts of the ship.
I was present and an eye witnesses to one of the very best naval precision gunnery ever. The USS Merrill DD 976 a Spurance class destroyer in the Persian Gulf in 1989, in Operation Praying Mantis. At a range of 3 miles, she fired on an enemy oil platform with her fore and aft 5 inch guns. 107 rounds fired rapid fire, without pause...and there were no misses!! It was awesome.
It bears comparison to a famous order given by Captain Kelsey, of HMS Warspite, when firing at a German tank concentration at Hottot-les-Bagues, on 11 June, 1944.
'Guns, Fifty rounds fifteen inch rapid fire.'
Close range, stationary target, cannot shoot back.......what is the challenge?
The 3 panzershiffe were cleaver in that they did the job they were designed to do much like the disguised merchant raiders the Germans used later for commerce raiding. They were designed to operate a long way from a base and act alone. As such they did not need a lot of displacement allocated to armour, as colonial stations were equipped mostly with light cruisers not heavier vessels due to cost and treaty restrictions on numbers of heavier vessels.
I think Ryan points out the major weakness in their design which is a lack of air defence. The ships became less useful as more caperble aircraft come on line alone with the developments in search RADAR, which means their ability hide in the vast open ocean diminished and the KM were well aware of this shortcoming, which is why they expanded the disguised commerce raiding force.
"the job they were designed to do" - Sink and cower in port.....
What an epic mismatch. Why not compare the USS New Jersey to the SS Minnow?