Where in the chain is it best to control volume?
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- Опубліковано 11 бер 2021
- In many high-end audio systems, there are multiple spots to control volume levels. Where in the chain is it best?
Have you gotten your copy of the Audiophile's Guide to setup? Make magic with your system using this guide and CD. www.psaudio.com/products/the-... - Наука та технологія
"He died.....I wish he hadn't done that..." I felt that Paul. You help keep his memory alive.
Does that mean he offed himself??
@@LaGataNegra3073 NO, natural causes (cancer I believe). He and Paul were very close. I can tell Paul misses him.
"I wish he hadn't have done that" LOL, me too. R.I.P. Arnie Nudell. Always will be one of the Audio Greats. ❤️
This is the truly the million dollar question.
Totally agree -- the pre-amp is the place to do it. That's why it has that (usually large) high grade potentiometer sticking out the front. It is pretty hard to by pass this unless you plug your DAC directly into the power amp but ....The other thing I find is that it is too easy to accidentally whip the volume up to maximum (causing you amp to max out !!) or mute it completely if it is on a phone, tablet or computer app.
Your videos are always a good source of learning about our setup and chain!! Thank you, keep up the good work!!
I like the way he looks down when he mentions the Cainbridge Audio product! Cambridge Audio were the first company to use toroidal transformer in their amps!
Older amps can have very sensitive line inputs. So if you put a 2 volt source on them they play very loud from the first few notches of your volume control. Then it is better to attenuate the incoming signal, so you can turn open the amp further.
Yep good question! Was just wondering this.
A good quality passive attenuator between source and amplifier (not a preamp), does a great job.
Even that would have some matching impedance issues (as the volume increases or decreases) but, overall it offers noticeably more clarity and less distortion.
OP: "Where do I want to do it?" Paul: "Where it will do the least amount of damage." Me: Usually, the kitchen table.
You're baaad hahah 😂
😆
Careful with controlling component volumes externally. I’ve had my Mac flip the amp to full volume a couple of times because it wasn’t clear where the volume was going to be controlled.
Preamps usually have a sweet spot so I just set and forget, just like biasing a tube. Then I adjust the volume on the power amp.
Off topic but I have a Kenwood KE 7090 Graphic Equalizer worked fine still sort of works but I've noticed when the unit is in standby mode the display is now displaying red horizontal lines which never appeared before, any help would be much appreciated 👍
Seems like you can either control the amount of sound that’s amplified via voltage control vs the amount of amplification being added to the incoming fixed level audio.
Watching numerous audio reviewers on UA-cam for a number of years.
I have come to the conclusion the over hype on the product reviews are
more of a babbling con artist. It reminds me of used car salesman.
Watching PS Audio videos is much different. More real World reliable, realistic content without the con artist over hype. Now I am thinking of the PS Audio Sprout that will fill all my needs with great well thought out audio design internally and externally in one great product.
Paul - crazy question, can you tell me where you purchased the equipment rack? It’s perfect for my equipment, thanks in advance
Very useful!
Wait, I’m confused. In several other videos you said to use the dac volume and not the preamp because most preamps use pots.
Favourite part of the video when Paul says “just Try it!” lol.
Always start in the half middle to three/quarters (volume) . Then adjust to/for ones set up.
What if 33% is too loud? No, when you adjust volume, start from 0 and go up to the right amount. Well, that's my take on it.
Agree with the conclusion. I always leave everything in the chain at fixed volume until it reaches the dial on my amp. For example, the Bluesound Node 2i I use for streaming from my NAS drive is left at (maximum) fixed volume, allowing me to control the volume purely at the end of the chain.
Context is important. High-end hifi systems; multiple (cascaded) potentiometer circuits add a lot of noise, (so keep it simple Sam). Stepped volume potentiometers, and high quality resistors make a difference.
you know your stuff. do you do something in the aera, too?
Agreed. First, agree with Paul. Attenuate in a preamp or an attenuator linestage. In my experience, every resistor has a signature that you can hear. A volume pot is a resistor, so their quality matters. Stepped resistor ladder attenuators generally better but dependent again on the resistors used. I like to use an autoformer volume control. EMIA uses autoformers from Dave Slagle and sound amazing.
Thanks PM me
Most older - as in vintage - preamps seem to have a built in loudness button by sounding as if they have a slight bass boost during the first arc of travel of the volume knob. Offen colloquially referred to as "having a fat tone" but engineers will probably blame the phenomena on the preamp's cable capacitance interacting with the volume control / potentiometer. Although preamps that sport such a sound are often described as having a good tone and "forgiving".
Nice theory. We should put this to the test somehow.
I would guess it might be that a lower signal is just more susceptible to other flaws in the chain so the higher you can keep the voltage as it travels the better
Paul said "Completely resolution free", which means "Completely free of loss of bit resolution". Digital volume controls (e.g. a media app volume control) normally makes you lose 1 bit per 6dB lower volume than max.
@@ThinkingBetter i don't mean losing resolution. I mean the actual signal voltage is lower. So the smaller amplitude signal is more susceptible to noise or other parasitic losses/ distortion as it travels on the wires
@@snoozzell Yes, correct. It’s causing a loss of signal to noise ratio.
What about volume when you have a PC > DAW > DAC > AMP > Speaker setup? The OS (windows) has a volume control, the DAW has a volume control, software like youtube/spotify has a volume cnotrol this is already 3 from the PC. then your DAC and AMP probably have volume controls as well. How should we set it up so we don't accidentally give the speaker too much power from the amp? Max volume on all then turn on the amp last?
It took me some years to realise that I should reduce the output volume on my PS Audio Perfect Wave Dac to 90% to get a much better sound quality in combination with my amplifier.
The interconnects between the pre amp & dac degrades the sound. The closer u r to the end of the chain with the volume control the better the sound because u r going through less wiring.
This really is splitting hairs isn't it .... I certainly go along with the concept of where it does least " damage " for sure .
There are only three ways of reducing perceived sound pressure level on the ears and that is by using a logarithmic resistive potentiometer, variable analog gain cell or digital . If you use a resistive potentiometer then the trick is to minimise noise by using low impedance potentiometers 10K log say in the middle of the amplification chain . Same goes for the variable gain cell ( vca basically ) the digital signal should be attenuated inside the DAC
Had not thought about it. But if you want to reduce the analog output level from digital data you would either have to throw away bits or do DSP interpolations of levels at different peak outputs. e.g. you would have to convert a file based on a 1VPeak to a .5VP with the same bit depth. Otherwise you do not use the full number of bits. like 16bit depth. I doubt many devices DSP in real time. They likely just toss bits. Lossy. 3db lower is one less bit. Or reduce the output voltage on the analog side of the DAC? By adding a resistor perhaps?
Granularity, don't hear that much in Audio. An Analog volume control offers a greater level of granularity. Set it at half voltage out and you still get the entire voltage swing to zero. No "bits" are lost.
So yes, an analog volume control is best. And at the output from the preamp is the best voltage spot.
if Directstream DAC + BHK Preamp...what would be the optimal fixed volume setting on the dac if controlling the volume from the preamp
From what I understand "fixed output" = "variable output set at maximum volume".
For example, if your DAC is actually a DAC/Preamp, to put the DAC in "fixed mode" is the same as setting it at "variable" and bumping the volume to the max.
I would suggest the volume knob ;-)
Where you get the less distorsion i guess
Ok preamp I understand it. When you do that, do you set volume of the day to max or what?
Right. Paul glossed over it completely as per usual...but you set the volume on the DAC to 100 percent always. Never take it off 100. Only control volume on pre-amp. Lowering volume on DAC crushes the bit depth.
Woohoo! analog controls FTW! Now lets add some analog tone and loudness controls! 😃
When you say “adjust at the preamp” does that mean i set my amp to 100% even if it means I’m only able to use the first 15% of the preamp to achieve listening level?
I think so.
I was also wondering the same, posted a question too, lets see what people say!
ok Paul we have waited long enough , let's see the new speakers in the old sound room, it's time ,besides whiet or black , can we get walnut , or are these plastic material
I’ve long said a preamp can make or break a system. The best systems always have a great preamp
Great explanation 🥴
The Volume Control is part of the "UNCHAINED MELODY"
I have this long term fantasy about a calibrated end-to-end system in which the only volume control is how loud the musician plays their instruments.
I.e. there is one stereo ribbon microphone placed at the front/center of the studio, and the gain is set to accommodate the loudest part of the entire album. Then, the 'mixing' is done, while tracking, by moving the musicians left/right, front/back to arrange them in the image. They can track individually... not necessarily all live at the same time. But the gain knob isn't touched.
They can play louder or softer, so as not to overpower other tracks. If the drums are in the back and the kick isn't loud enough, get a larger drum.
A calibration tone should also be played before or after the album, at say 85dB, so that people with volume knobs can set the speakers to play that tone at 85dB.
I want this so bad, as a counter to the fake dynamic ranges we're all forced to listen to.
And hell, if part of the album happens to reach 130dB, then my neighbors two houses over will also get to enjoy the music.
fun
the analog colume control probably sounds better than the perfect digital control, because natural sounds don't scale perfectly evenly but dependant on frequency.
low highs are more noticable than low bass etc.
so the analog volume more closely follows how natural volume increases - singing louder, playing harder- behaves. the perfect digital loudness sounds more like an artificial increase of silent sound in comparison.
If you start with 16 bit audio, and then you adjust that in the digital domain, here's what happens: Say you lower the volume to 1/8. that is reasonable in a 100W amp system, right?
But, now you have, at the loudest signal, only 13 bits (8 is 3 bits). Your max amplitude is now using only the lower 13 bits.
Your D/A is now, practically, only 13 bits.
As we know, reducing resolution increases noise. Is it any wonder it sounds worse?
Did you give all your employees snow shovels. YIKES.
You really don't like Cambridge Audio, do you?
It seems like it and i've got one too hehe :)
@@TrancedForLife I have a cambridge audio DACmagic plus, very nice dac considering the price.
Has a balanced outputs and a ground lift switch.
I used to have the 651P phono preamp as well, it was a very decent midrange preamp.
So I don't really get why he's got an axe to grind with CA... those products offer great bang for the buck.
@@QoraxAudio yeah not sure why though since the two companies pretty much operate in different price brackets but oh well. Got a Cambridge cx a60, cxn & cxc stack myself linked to Dali floorstanders. Lovely bit of kit for the price although I'd get the ps audio gear in a heartbeat if i was able to. 🙂
@@TrancedForLife yep that's what I thought too.
Not sure where I read, always put the source volume at a fix level😁
At max
@@xanderguldie do you mean max volume on the reviever for each channel?
Gain Structure... re; these "sweetspot" comments, to execute it properly you need to meter it.
However, an old pro audio rule of thumb, get the signal up out of the noise as soon as possible.
Maybe I am stupid but..I did not found an answer here and I do not know where "It will do the least amount of damage" because if I knew it, I wouldn't be here asking it xD
So..I have a pretty simple set-up: iPad --> DAC --> AMP. No Pre-AMP.
My DAC does not have a "volume display" so I don't know if it change when I change the volume on the iPad, so I assume they are separate.
Given that..where should I adjust the volume? He also sad "as far down the chain as possible", so isn't it the AMP? But he never mentioned it, only stuff that comes before the AMP or I missed something?
For what it matter, this is what I usually had believe, I always punt iPad and DAC at max volume and only adjust it with the AMP knob, is that right?
Sorry for the long post but would be nice to have an answer by someone. Thank.
That's because all of this guy's videos are pure mumbling. If your dac doesn't have a volume control then set your pc's volume to 100 and adjust the amp's volume to the highest volume you could need (to have a comfortable listening volume for the quietest songs for example). Then lower the pc's or media software's volume as needed.
Wherever in the signal chain you make the adjustment, just remember the most important rule from the DJ world: “It you ain’t redlining you ain’t headlining.” 😆
Per 6dB volume down on a standard digital volume control you lose 1 bit of resolution in a PCM stream.
Du bist eine meiner Hauptquellen geworden :D
Well no problem then with 32bits DACs? 😘
@@bratsson It's true that this resolution drop issue is much less of a concern the more bits you have available. If you run audio at 32 bits, you have plenty of headroom to adjust volume from. But your DAC being 32 bits doesn't mean your Spotify or whatever app as well as your computer runs 32 bits. Even 24 bits is not too bad as you can reduce the volume with 8 bits (8x6=48dB) before you start to drop below CD quality.
Som DAC, let’s call them power-DAC’s, has high power transistors, so they can drive the speakers directly, with out a pre and power amplifier. Some use switch mode power supply, so the volume is done in the power supply,, turning the voltage up and down, to the powerfull transistors. Then the digital signal is always at max.
Do you have a make and model for one of those "power DACs?"
@@marianneoelund2940 Wadia 151, Wadia Intuition 01, Lyngdorf TDAI-2170, Lyngdorf TDAI-3400
@@marianneoelund2940 Lyngdorf explains it here: ua-cam.com/video/g3rq3ZfzNos/v-deo.html
What about controlling the volume after the power amp I always wondered?
That's called power amp attenuation and is used in guitar amplification when you want the sound of an overdriven power amp without the volume. It would serve no useful purpose in HiFi.
@@danielbentley0 why wouldn’t it? I get the practical and economical implications of attenuating some tens of Volts compared to 1-2 Volts of most RCA output. But what about sound quality, is there any difference?
@@volpedo2000 It would compromise the sound. The energy has to go somewhere and so has to be converted to light, heat, kinetic...
Yeah don't do that as other have said. The more power you pump into the signal during amplification, the more likely there will be distortion. That distortion will carry over after lowering the volume. So always amplify the least you need to.
Whats the case bellow the Mac Mini?
I think everything has a sweet spot, which is summed up by Paul's "where it does the least amount of damage". I imagine most things are the most linear somewhere in between the lowest and highest 25%. The good thing about some products is you can find measurements on certain forums like audiosciencereview.
Personally, I've found certain equipment needs to be turned up some to get life out of the music, otherwise it is kind of lifeless. So if everything is turned down low then the music just turns boring.
Part of me has a certain disdain for mega-power amplifiers, even like 100W/channel amps. I understand that you want the headroom, but 100W is waaaaaaaayyy more headroom than you actually need. I think the sweet spots are much more attainable on lower power equipment.
I was going to say "where it sounds better to you", guess that's the same as "where it does the least damage". That said, I have several power amps that have volume controls and I know I should run them wide open and leave it up to the preamp, but that's pretty scary. It does sound different, maybe better when I have the power amp volumes fully up but the feeling that bad switching or a dropped tone might damage the speakers is an issue and I turn them back.
I also have a few power amps without volume controls and don't have a choice.
I don’t understand how these things hanging on the walls helps with dereflecting sounds
Breaks up the soundwave and takes away it's energy.
@@jamesplotkin4674 i know that, but how flat surface prevents reflections?
@@_viy Those aren't really flat. The dark lines are milled out from the surface, as if routed, or deep grooved.
@@jamesplotkin4674 Saw that too. You think what the percentage of reflected sound waves will reach its milled out lines?
They act both as a diffuser and absorber.
Audioholics have a series in there channel if want to learn more about acoustic treatment.
THE BIGGER THE VOLUME KNOB THE BETTER!
The true answer is YMMW. Some systems will not have audible differences making the Preamp an expensive paperweight.
That's if you have no analogue sources too.
On the integrated amplifier lol
There is a formula for that phenomenon... I forgot it...😢
my guess is that your device's very good channel separation and low harmonic distortion, and possibly high-skew rate *FETs, are being brought out and amplified instead of the noise floor of the power amp or any other amp or D/A or A/D in the signal path that might be there hiding.
not too long and ill have BHK pre..
Simple. Analog volume. Forget about digital.obviously it is way more complicated than that, these days.
On a serious note, I use an analog system and have to use digital content. I have to use an interface or a DAC to change the audio.
I use my analog preamp volume control to get best SNR which is usually half way. Then it is all up to digital junk.
cambridgeaudio cxa81 - whatever the hack it is... how come you are so pro cannot know cambridgeaudio gears ? Just sounds funny hearing it from you
And if you have active speakers/monitors, make sure their input sensitivity aka volume is at 12 o’clock. Or Db unity.
Setting the speakers volume at full volume will create distortion, it might sound louder but you decrease soundstage by adding more gain in front of the already fully open amp.
This was extrapolated by the guys at Schiit Audio
Computer volume 100
Music App 100
DAC
PreAmp adjust volume here
Monitors: set at 12 o’clock
What the hekk is a DAC???????
Never heard a good digital volume control. Upgraded a digital volume control chip om a Sonic Frontiers preamp and it was better but still sucked.
The one with the biggest dial? LOLL I'm kidding!
There's a lot to be said for that logic
'the former Arnie Nudell' lol......sorry
First👍
Cambridge cx a81 "whatever that is". Look it up. Jesus. Oh, doesn't fit with the shameless self promotion of PS Audio's over priced boxes. Guy just wanted an answer.
true!
My thoughts exactly. What a turd! The guy is a dope at times.
@@ryanschipp8513
Why waste your time watching?
roon
is for snowflakes
BS Audio, taking inconsideration to new heights. The "whatever that is" comment about the writers' Cambridge CXA81 amplifier is *unacceptable* at the very least. Shame on you.
Unfortunately, condescending behavior has become an integral part of the audiophile world, so we have to ignore it and live with it...