Does digital volume control really suck?
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
- We all know that we want analogue volume control since digital volume control restricts resolution. But what if I tell you different….
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Probably the best explanation on the topic I've ever seen. Thanks for sharing.
Glad you enjoyed it!
As always a fascinating look behind the curtain of audio.
I tried every type of analog volume control I ever heard of and none sound as transparent & neutral as a good digital one.
What kind of good digital volume controls have you had success with?
Thank you for the great video. What dac would you recommend for mixing and mastering music? Have you ever listened to a schiit gungnir dac (nos, multibit) or to one of their other dacs? Best, Fabi
Schiit does not answer my e-mails so I am unable to review their products. Sorry. As far as the best DAC: ua-cam.com/video/EykkzxUstL4/v-deo.html
a question related to this topic, and maybe nice to dive deeper into: I own a Lumin X1, with Leedh volume control and high quality output capacitors and therefor you can directly connect to a power amplifier, as advised by Lumin and many reviewers. Although I was warned by several experts that you better always use a pre-amp, I connected it to the Naim NAP 250 new classic (fantastic power amplifier), and the soundstage and dynamics and tonal was great, but it sounded a little harsh. After listening for a longer time this started to irritate me and I went back to an integrated Pass labs. And voila, the smooth and neutral warm sound of the Lumin was back! I Still use leedh volume control, that is fine, I don't hear a difference with the analogue control of the Pass labs. I don't understand!, a pre-amp can at it's best not do any harm to the sound right? Or am I appreciating the little distortion that the pre-amp adds? Paul McGowan of PS Audio experienced the same thing and could not explain it, do you?
It all depends on the output stage of the pre-amp. For instance the one in the Grimm MU2 does drive a power amp equal to a high quality pre-amp.
Thanks Hans for another interesting video. Learning from your depth of experience is always informative. I've noticed you occasionally mention your early days of testing digital audio and the artefacts they came with. I would love to read some of these initial musings... Obviously youtube didn't exist but do you have any articles from back then that are available? On the topic of DSP, (although I'm sure you've been asked before) have you tested HQPlayer and any chance of a review of its effects? Keep up the good work. Cheers, Pete
I became tech journalist to explore the future, not the past🤔. Those things I learned in the past and that still are worth knowing, you'll find in my videos. But I am still to young to walk down memory lane😁
Gerald Pratt. On my last Pre-amp design, I did not use an analog volume control at all. I have an Oppo 205 and use their digital volume control to control my system SPL, usually around 80 dB. I am convinced that a modern digital volume control used in hi-rez audio does not degrade the audio as Hans explained. All analog volume controls have a mechanical system to track the conductive material in the pot. This is not the best thing to do to an otherwise mostly perfect analog signal. Not to mention it is hard to find an analog pot that tracks perfectly. As a protective measure, I set the overall gain of my system such that I can never get a full scale signal that will fry my speakers or my ears.
Yeah, analog pots can be problematic. A ladder of very high quality resistors switched using relays makes a much better analog volume control, but is much more expensive.
From my experience, analog volume control just sounds better to my ears. I have three Harman Kardon amps/receivers: PM665vxi, HK3470 and HK3490 (I like the brand obviously). The PM665vxi and HK3470 have analog volume control, and the sound is just “richer” and more satisfying with better mid-bass and more dynamic range, they just do a better job driving speakers full range (bass/treble at 12). Every digital volume controlled receiver I’ve listened to (no matter the brand or price point) just sounds “thin” unless a separate powered sub is used with it. I use mostly quality digital audio sources (CDs primarily, I have a large collection).
I’ve honestly always wondered why to my ears at least, digital controlled volume sounds thin? I wouldn’t consider myself an audiophile, and I’m not an engineer. I’m simply an audio hobbyist that likes good sound with a wide, deep and rich soundstage. I also have had multiple friends comment on how much bigger/richer my system sounds than their more modern surround system (that uses digital audio controls obviously).
I have little experience with AV receivers but with contemporary stereo equipment my experiences differ from yours.
Great video, Hans, on a much needed subject to be discussed.
In your experience, which digital volume control products that you've reviewed stand toward the end of "exceptional" digital volume controls as you related? Would you consider some of the newer well-done digital volume controls like Bluesound and Mytek to be toward the better end of the discussion?
I know it's always best to do a/b comparisons in one's system to determine the best sound, but determining which sound control method (analog or digital) in one's system can be a bit challenging to discern. Thoughts? Thanks.
I don't keep track of individual functions of devices I review, I review the device as such since that's how it is used.
One of the biggest issues with listening to audio on computers and phones is there are several "volume controls" in series. The audio player, the operating system and the amplifier. I tend to leave everything on "max" and control the volume with the amplifier.
That, in general, is a good approach.
I know this is an old video, but I’m going to take a shot at getting some insight: I have a NAD C658 connected to a Rega Elex R. The NAD offers variable or fixed volume options. NAD recommends using variable and fixed on the amp. My question is what should I set the volume on the Rega as a fixed point? Currently I have it at 50%. The issue I’ve run into is finding the right balance in the volume chain once the sub is considered. If I increase the volume on the Rega, it just increases the speakers, because the sub is connected to the NAD. Increasing the volume on the NAD turns everything up, but it’s the starting point that needs to be correct before the NAD handles everything. The sub gain is turned up to about 30%, for full disclosure. Any advice or direction would be greatly appreciated. Your video makes me feel better about using digital volume on the NAD, just unsure about the other 2 volume settings.
I have no hands-on experience with the Rega but this is what I should do: try to find a setting where the volume knob on the Rega is between 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock and set the volume with the NAD.
Hi Hans,
Great channel! I appreciate your work. I have a question regarding the Mytek Brooklyn DAC.(I have one on the way to me) It's my understanding that this DAC offers an option of either a digital or analogue volume control. Since the output of this DAC is quite high, it will likely need to be turned down in order not to override the input of my Anthem 710 AVR. Should I use the digital or analogue volume in order to maintain bit perfect play? Or should I use the jumpers to reduce the output signal of the DAC and leave the volume at 100%? What do you do with your Brooklyn DAC?
Thanks for reading :-)
I would first use the jumpers inside if neccecary. Whether the digital or analogue volume control works the best for you, I can't say. The differences are really small, if there are any. But an analogue volume control might be more sensitive to the load the amp offers. I haven't tested this though.
Hello there... It would be nice if You could explain the matter of analog vs digital volume control regarding channel imbalance in speakers or headphones when the volume knob works with the analog mechanism behind it... iFi Audio is all about equiping their audio gear in analog volume knobs while the majority of other audio comanies are strong on digital volume knobs... Is the channel imbalance a thing of the past or is it still a thing today and We all should avoid analog volume control if We want the comfort of perfect channel ballance in Our headphones or speakers? THX in advance kind sir Hans the Audible 🤗
Youcould watch these videos: ua-cam.com/video/dCwYFdjuUqU/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/hni1ToR308o/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/N5MePtERBLc/v-deo.html
Of course I've seen them, so the technical details and mechanisms of digital vs analog volume control are absolutely clear to Me after watching Your videos... What I'm worried about is that when anyone buys lets say a FiiO K3 AMP/DAC it has a volume knob that changes the volume in an analog way, but the result is digitally corrected on the device itself so that the left & right channel always have the same volume level (for instance 40-40 dB and in another scenario lets say 90-90 dB), but when We buy an iFi audio ZEN DAC v2 or another of their products, We can get a channel imbalance when adjusting the volume with their analog volume knob, which results in lets say 40-42 dB or 91-90 dB on the left and right loudspeakers or earcups of the headphones... Many audio gear reviewers have pointed that out in the past, and that's my concern... Do We all still have to turn the analog volume knobs on these AMP/DAC devices ever so slightly back & forth chasing the moment, when the ballance is just right? Maybe I'm ignorant in the matter, but it is sad if someone should pay tousands of USD/EUR and get stuck with in My oppinion an annoing problem - If there is a video on that topic, please direct me to it of course, but if not, I would be happy to read Your thoughts on the matter as You have dealt with tens or even hundreds of analog knob devices and compared them to digital knob ones through the decades and therefore certainly encountered theese channel imballances many times or came to a conclusion, that it is not an audible issue... Sorry for My rant on the matter, but it is like the last detail I'm missing on my current level of the audio gear journey 🤗
@@RedFightingMood I think iFi's claim is just a marketing claim. One can build a really good analog volume control using a high quality resistor ladder network that is switched using relays, but thats quite expensive compared to the digital solution.
I don't understand, the Lumin X1 is not really a pre amp, it just has very good output transformers (Lundahl LL7401), but let's say the output signal is not good, a pre amp theoretically can never improve that, right? But for some reason, when you put a pre amp in between it just sounds better. I've heard that from several retailers and now heard it with my own ears, I still don't understand how that is possible.
There is a better electrical compatibility between a good active pre-amp and the power amp. A better matched impedance, voltage and current capability.
Hi Hans, can you explain how digital volume would effect dsd playback as my understanding is it only has one bit. I am using a Korg ds100 dac with audiogate software on a Mac to a pair of genelec 8030 monitors. Just wondering if I should get a analogue volume control or preamp.
Watch ua-cam.com/video/hni1ToR308o/v-deo.html
Thanks Hans, the ESS point of view here ( a bit old but still interesting) : www.audiodesignguide.com/DAC32/digital-vs-analog-volume-control.pdf
Great video, on an interesting subject. I have a Chord Mojo, which I put through a passive (impedance based not TVC) pre-amplifier, into a pair of class-D monoblocs. I have found that sometimes if I don't adjust the Mojo output and pre-amplifier I get discernible noise (not clipping) that sounds awful. It's not immediately noticeable (and my ears aren't what they used to be). I know you use a Mojo so was wondering if you think the Mojo is the cause of this noise or is this more likely an impedance matching problem?
Sorry, I do own the Mojo but I don't know the rest of your equipment so it is virtually impossible to help you here.
I was wondering if you knew if the Mojo's volume control was any good or not. Although other research I've done suggests that it's actually a very good one. Thanks for responding anyway.
+Tim Pailthorpe it works fine
Thank you. I'll look elsewhere for the cause.
I have a Audioengine D1 conned to my Computer via Optical Audio Input; should i keep the windows volume at 100% or the DAC at 100%?
You should use audiophile software that bypasses the Windows Audio mixer and then set volume with the DAC.
How does roon dsp volume compare to a preamp analog potentiometer?
That depends on the quality of the potentiometer. If it’s good it might perform equally to the Roon volume control.
Is digital volume control on a stereo receiver good or bad?
That depends. If it is done well, there will be no difference to analog volume control. Watch ua-cam.com/video/dCwYFdjuUqU/v-deo.html
Since hearing is subjective and based on an individuals preference and capability, why do reviewers take such a hard line view of sound when in reality what I hear on one set of gear another person may hear something different? Shouldn't the industry adopt a more agnostic approach to reviewing sound? I am assuming the listeners ultimate goal is enjoyment and not whether one implementation is superior to another based on the cost of the gear and the preference of the reviewer?
Did you ever watch my reviews?????? See ua-cam.com/video/EykkzxUstL4/v-deo.html
all the time and your independence from industry sponsorship is a main reason to listen to you. my question is more of a dead end, because human beings rarely think in unison. as a result people can be swayed away from facts by various means. considering that there is such a wide range in this "hobby" I for one would appreciate a different take on what a specific gear presents to the listener and not just what a reviewer feels is necessary to accommodate both the viewer and the industry. in my younger days I wasted resources (both time and money) trying to follow what others felt was the "correct" way. as I age I tend to trust my instincts and rely on my perception of sound to maximize the experience.
The only thing I do is hare my view and warn you not to find more truth in my words than present. So what else can I do?
and that makes your channel have value... my critique is pointed outward at those beholden to the "industry"
Thanks for the video, I have got a node 2i connected to an amp. I am currently listening Tidal mqa. Is it wise to use volume on the node 2i with fixed volume on the amp or directly from the amp with maximum setting on node?
I would opt for the latter.
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel thanks for the answer, I thought it will be the wise thing however does it have that much a difference that I have to get up everytime to change the volume?
No, you could try setting the volume control on the amp at two o’clock and lower the volume on the Node.
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel thanks a lot
Trust your ears not math
I would advise to neither trust your ears and math unless you are very methodical and systematic. And then trust your ears before you trust math.
i thought i knew about audio until i came here. I actually know jack shit
Isn't it great that we can share knowledge and educate each other?
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel you have taught me a lot and reinvigorated my passion for hifi!