Hey! Thank you for mentioning our method. I can reassure you, the RAD method does NOT talk about nodes, barrel harmonics, optimal barrel timing, OCW, or any type of load development method that’s been taught. I am not sure exactly where or who you heard this from, but we have been demystifying this for several years now. We teach internal ballistics. As an assistant ballistican at SW, I’ve learned from my mentor as well too at SW, and would love to walk you through what I actually teach anytime. Thank you for the video!
I’ve gone back and listened to what DD says in his video several times and he never said what RAD talks about specifically. DD said “Most reloading methods”, when he mentioned the reloading methods out there. I’m not trying to start an argument or be a smart ass, but trying to clarify from my perspective. If I’ve misunderstood either you or DD, it was not intentional.
Thanks DD, You just gave a a super in-depth outline of my pedestrian reloading career to-date. Every day’s a new day at the reloading and shooting bench, chasing the phantom “harmonics” of all my barrels. 😂🤣 Now I know MORE & LESS about why that is. Guess I’ll just keep holding true on our ethical path of finding the best consistent loads of powders and bullets for each gun out to 400 yd max and chasing the utopia of my best consistent shooting mechanics as the primary variable to improve. Good work & keep’em coming.
I've had guns with barrels that appeared shot out and ugly under borescope inspection and they still shot acceptable groups. Some newer guns don't shoot worth a damn no matter what you do. I've wasted so much time playing with powders and loads trying to chase groups. Cold bore shots for a hunting rifle is what I'm after now. Good points well taken, thank you for your comments.
My name is also Warren. I have followed David Tubbs lead and have found that HBN coated bullets in nitrocarburized barrels will often shoot the first round into the group. As a result, I hunt with a clean barrel. 6.5 WSM chambered Krieger on a Miroku replica Winchester 1885 Highwall. I shoot at a 535 yard club range where Satterlee's got started and have several videos. The range was also host to 600 yard Nationals this fall for NBRSA.
This made sense. When I was a kid a neighbor had a .22 cal match rifle from the early 20th century. The octagonal barrel was close to an inch wide. Even back then they knew what was what.
Great video. I couldn’t agree more about what you said about match grade barrels. I recently re-barreled a Remington 700 with a custom Hart barrel chambered in 243 Win and it consistently shoots under half MOA.
The RAD method is just learning what actually happens and matters in internal ballistics. It’s nothing like the other load dev methods (mostly because it actually works out well). You should definitely reach out and chat with him about it!
Good video, the more we learn the more complicated things get. Remember the days of a bullet and powder charge combo we found shot well and we hunted with them for years? Back then I didn’t even have a chrony! Good luck this year guys
Great video Desert Dog. Mark and Sam after work posted a video about going out and shooting literally only one shot per day from your hunting rifle to see where that shot lands and build confidence in your rifle. I’m lucky to live where I can shoot from the front yard and I’ve been doing that and sending the shot nearly through the same hole every day. That’s only with factory ammo too. We just moved out here and my reloading stuff isn’t set back up yet.
I'm a big believer that runout affects accuracy also. I use Hornady's Concentricity Gauge to check and adjust (attempt .001" or less) to minimize. Then I also like to Sharpie mark the neck on the high side reading to orientate the round during loading for consistent rifling engagement. Cuts down on fliers CONSIDERABLY.
Great job DD ,,back east here where we can not see two hundred yards in our hunting spots ,,we load comfortable loads that shoot tight in our rifles ,,no need for ultra high speed in short distance shooting.
Despiste all science applied to the matter, there are, still, conundrums in the shooting world, even to D.D... I thought it was just me... Since long ago, I too gravitated around various theories, then E. Cortina came out and said "believe the target"... He might be right. But... Proper reloading techniques make all the difference, like proper neck tention and seating depths. Thanks for sharing your eye openening opinion! 👍
Maybe a good video topic could focus on what makes a great barrel, versus what is a mid tier barrel, as a followup to the points made in this video. Enjoy the content!
Oh no DD ! You threw shade on Tikka ! The Tikka fanboy club is coming for you now ! Between them and the disciples of Jack Oc you wont be safe anywhere ! UA-cams Salmon Rushdie!
Everyone get out and vote! Vote for the candidate that will protect your second amendment ( right to bear arms) and the first amendment ( your right to free speech)…… Oh, and Tim Walz is not on the ticket…..
Fantastic Job on a rarely covered, yet critical foundation for extreme accuracy. IF you take care of this single issue, more often not the lighter profiled barrels can achieve all the accuracy one would ever need- at least for hunting, where repetitive shots are neither common, nor wanted.👍
If barrel harmonics were not a reality, barrel tuners would not work. The key is recognizing that a barrel is only motionless at the two ends of its natural whip. Load development is all about getting the powder charge just right so the bullet exits the barrel as close as possible to either of these two points since a motionless barrel provides the greatest accuracy. These two motionless endpoints can be easily seen in your diagrams. It also explains the challenge in finding the best factory load for any given rifle, that being the load that hits (pun intended) closest to either of these two endpoints.
All independent scientific testing concludes that they don't work. Even Eric Cortina admits that tuners don't make loads better. The benefits realized by some people is simply the act of adding weight to the barrel.
@desertdogoutdoors1113 I have to disagree here.. If barrel tuners do not work, and this was only beneficial because of adding weight, when setting up the tuner the end user should not see improvements in group size as many in fact do see.. By what your saying, when adjusting the tuner, nothing should have changed as the weight remains the same.
@@ZZ-uf4zv There are numerous UA-cam videos that demonstrate the impact that barrel tuners or resonators have on accuracy. Do they improve the accuracy of every barrel? Absolutely not, just as some reloaders have found when it comes to developing a load for a given rifle. There will be times when the harmonics of a given barrel are so inconsistent that finding a load, a tuner, or a combination of the two makes it impossible to get close enough to those two points where the barrel becomes stationary.
@@davidlaney8254 I know that a tuner isn't gonna make a crap barrel perform. If it doesn't have a decent barrel to start with you are wasting your time and money. But I do think with quality barrels they will improve your groups..
Agree with all you said. I do not follow the "New large sample size crowd promoted by Hornady and maybe others" Maybe excess barrel heat, shooter fatigue over many shots, as well as barrel fouling has more of an affect on Precision. But no matter what all I work for is shot to shot consistency to build confidence for hunting.
Thanks, I'm just a target shooting hunter I have 2 rifles that always shoot very tight groups, deer rifles 270,350 legend none of my.other rifles can compete there whati always heard called 1 in a thousand barrels ( off the production line) thanks again for your talk
Very good discussion, thank you. For whatever it means - 2 of my hunting rifles are completely different. 1) my.270 Steyer is so difficult, it will only shoot with a precise load that I developed for it. It will shoot ½ MOA with the right load and 1gn difference shoots a 3" group. On the other hand my .308 Ruger(much cheaper gun) I can through a stone in the front with any powder weight and it will do the same🤷♂️ I think stopped reading and listening to everyone's opinion on load development and just follow one rule... Consistency.. Perfect seating depth, perfect powder measurement, brass quality. At the end for a hunter 1" groups don't matter at ethical distances. We only reload and chance accuracy because it keeps us busy with the business of guns that we all love. But at the end of the day a good ethical hunter, will always have meat on the table, regardless of load development
While I whole heartedly agree with you on having a quality barrel ie, Bartlein, Kreiger, Brux and a few others. I think adjusting harmonics with something like an EC tuner does play a role in tightening up an already good group. The barrel quality and ammo quality are the two biggest factors in the system, taking the nut behind the trigger out of the equation..
I agree that heavy barrels generally will shoot a better group with less load development . I also have sporter barrels that shoot very well . I believe the reason is they have a good stress relief along with a good bore ? This all points to the harmonics having an important affect on accuracy . IMO
I agree and disagree. I think everything you mentioned about high quality stiff heavy barrels is generally true. But I also have tuned my reloads so that my factory Ruger American 7mm08 (which shot factory ammo at 1-1.5moa) will consistently shoot .5moa and will, in good conditions, shoot .25moa. My Shilen custom heavy barrel 7mm08 with a 7lb heavy Palma match taper will not shoot that good with any load I’ve tried. So while I agree, that generally your statement tends to hold true, there are exceptions. I do think that small vibrations do have very meaningful effects down range, and I do think that load testing is worth the time and effort. But, pretty much any 6mm BR loaded with an 88gr Berger on top of 40 grains of Varget will always shoot 10’s.
I'm am kinda new to reloading. Mostly hunting ammo and fun shooting ammo. I have not got a load development plan other than My tikka 270 likes h4831sc with a verity of bullets. So I shoot groups of 3 the ones that are MOA or under and the extreme spread is under 20 I go back and retest. If it repeats close two more times. I use for hunting. Not sure what kind of load development you call that 😂. Good video I have definitely learned from you experience thank you
Lee talks about neck tension in his hand loading book and it makes sense to me. Basically he says his dies create a .001” interference fit between the brass and bullet. Any more interference and the bullet is sizing the brass and that can cause inconsistent neck tension. As a rule, certainly no more than .002” interference.
I’ve seen more bad shooters make rifles look bad than I have seen bad rifles. I’ve only shot 2 rifles that I wasn’t comfortable with enough to take hunting. Both were ruger 270’s. One shot a 6” group and the other shot a 4” group. One hole groups are nice. But not necessary for most hunters. Most of them can’t shoot that good anyway.
DD, what’s your take on the Winchester BOSS system offered on some of the New Haven Model 70 Classic series? It reverses directions and adjust the rifle to the ammo instead of making adjustments to the load until it groups well. Just wondering if you’d ever messed with one of them. Thanks!
Yes barrel quality is the most important - I own 2 lathes and have rechambered hundreds of rifles and have reloaded 41 years! Simple crazy story had a friend that would get short chambered barrels he didn't have a lathe- he used a mikita hand drill in a vise to finish chamber some of his barrels before headspaceing- ! When done these rifles would shoot just as good as other custom rigs! If axual chamber allinemement was the key to anykind of truth we should and could be able to take all of the millions of milsurp Military old bolt rifles mauser-mosins etc 3-. 5 -12 moa and make them better. I doesn't work!!!!! Think about it!
Working out what matters, the accuracy you need, where to pay attention and what you can do is tricky. This helps. I like the idea of testing ..but ..the results can be dubious..or too similar...the component and barrel life wasted... particularly if looking at statistical significance.. And..as steady as you may get when shooting...you may well be looking at your ability to place every shot aimed exactly at same place...rather than recording actual variances from variables you control. Then with custom barrels or new barrels..maybe they need a few hundred rounds to settle down. Recently a rifle with a custom barrel shot very well...say 1/4 moa.small groups..this is several hundred rounds into its 204 life ...I thought it was half moa at best. Was it me? The barrel condition? Environmentals? You can only guess ..but ..I was very relieved n pleased. One does get spoilt by great results. I'm concluding that doing what you can do well...case prep and exact powder measures measurement to a modest fps that doesn't stress cases ..with perhaps some brief seating depth tests...to see if something is glaringly obvious is about all you can do. I like to seat close to the lans...less "wobble" room for the bullet...but...at times I'm forced to seat a fair way back..long throat..and still get great results with a custom barrel. Primer depth is an issue that's almost beyond practical control.. given that the height of the primer may vary due to the protrusion amount of the anvil...on top of any height variation...after primer pocket uniforming..and using a tool that doesn't index off the extraction ring. Ended up with KM primer gauge..can't say I've done research to compare results. Just eliminating as many variables as possible...which may or may not make any real difference...apart from positive. Psychology .. But...when reaching out to small targets...I want as much accuracy as possible... That was the short version...ha. Thanks Mr Dessert.
Hey! Thank you for mentioning our method. I can reassure you, the RAD method does NOT talk about nodes, barrel harmonics, optimal barrel timing, OCW, or any type of load development method that’s been taught. I am not sure exactly where or who you heard this from, but we have been demystifying this for several years now. We teach internal ballistics.
As an assistant ballistican at SW, I’ve learned from my mentor as well too at SW, and would love to walk you through what I actually teach anytime.
Thank you for the video!
I’ve gone back and listened to what DD says in his video several times and he never said what RAD talks about specifically. DD said “Most reloading methods”, when he mentioned the reloading methods out there.
I’m not trying to start an argument or be a smart ass, but trying to clarify from my perspective. If I’ve misunderstood either you or DD, it was not intentional.
Thanks DD, You just gave a a super in-depth outline of my pedestrian reloading career to-date. Every day’s a new day at the reloading and shooting bench, chasing the phantom “harmonics” of all my barrels. 😂🤣 Now I know MORE & LESS about why that is. Guess I’ll just keep holding true on our ethical path of finding the best consistent loads of powders and bullets for each gun out to 400 yd max and chasing the utopia of my best consistent shooting mechanics as the primary variable to improve. Good work & keep’em coming.
I've had guns with barrels that appeared shot out and ugly under borescope inspection and they still shot acceptable groups. Some newer guns don't shoot worth a damn no matter what you do. I've wasted so much time playing with powders and loads trying to chase groups. Cold bore shots for a hunting rifle is what I'm after now.
Good points well taken, thank you for your comments.
My name is also Warren. I have followed David Tubbs lead and have found that HBN coated bullets in nitrocarburized barrels will often shoot the first round into the group. As a result, I hunt with a clean barrel. 6.5 WSM chambered Krieger on a Miroku replica Winchester 1885 Highwall.
I shoot at a 535 yard club range where Satterlee's got started and have several videos. The range was also host to 600 yard Nationals this fall for NBRSA.
This made sense. When I was a kid a neighbor had a .22 cal match rifle from the early 20th century. The octagonal barrel was close to an inch wide. Even back then they knew what was what.
Great video. I couldn’t agree more about what you said about match grade barrels. I recently re-barreled a Remington 700 with a custom Hart barrel chambered in 243 Win and it consistently shoots under half MOA.
The RAD method is just learning what actually happens and matters in internal ballistics. It’s nothing like the other load dev methods (mostly because it actually works out well). You should definitely reach out and chat with him about it!
Good video, the more we learn the more complicated things get. Remember the days of a bullet and powder charge combo we found shot well and we hunted with them for years? Back then I didn’t even have a chrony!
Good luck this year guys
Great video Desert Dog. Mark and Sam after work posted a video about going out and shooting literally only one shot per day from your hunting rifle to see where that shot lands and build confidence in your rifle. I’m lucky to live where I can shoot from the front yard and I’ve been doing that and sending the shot nearly through the same hole every day. That’s only with factory ammo too. We just moved out here and my reloading stuff isn’t set back up yet.
RAD load development is not what your presumption is. I wouldn’t categorize them with the others. He (RAD owner) is
an actual ballastican
I'm a big believer that runout affects accuracy also. I use Hornady's Concentricity Gauge to check and adjust (attempt .001" or less) to minimize. Then I also like to Sharpie mark the neck on the high side reading to orientate the round during loading for consistent rifling engagement. Cuts down on fliers CONSIDERABLY.
Great job DD ,,back east here where we can not see two hundred yards in our hunting spots ,,we load comfortable loads that shoot tight in our rifles ,,no need for ultra high speed in short distance shooting.
Thank you for your insights. 👍👍👍👏👏🤝🤝🤝🤝🤝
Despiste all science applied to the matter, there are, still, conundrums in the shooting world, even to D.D... I thought it was just me... Since long ago, I too gravitated around various theories, then E. Cortina came out and said "believe the target"... He might be right. But... Proper reloading techniques make all the difference, like proper neck tention and seating depths.
Thanks for sharing your eye openening opinion! 👍
Great video, as always, DD. Thank you!
Money doesn't buy friends but it does buy accuracy if we use some intelligence which money won't buy.
Hmm food for thought. Good work
Great insight DD. Thanks again.
Another good one Desert Dog. Cheers 🇨🇦
Hey bud, i think you're close to the answer here. I would encourage you to take the RAD class and it'll fill in the gaps for you.
Maybe a good video topic could focus on what makes a great barrel, versus what is a mid tier barrel, as a followup to the points made in this video.
Enjoy the content!
This makes me wonder if double rifles are less likely to whip around, being strengthened by the second barrel. Not that it matters, apparently!
Excellant!!
RAD method doesn't have anything to do with barrel harmonics. I'd go so far to say RAD is anti-harmonics.
Right on the money....thank you.
Oh no DD ! You threw shade on Tikka ! The Tikka fanboy club is coming for you now ! Between them and the disciples of Jack Oc you wont be safe anywhere ! UA-cams Salmon Rushdie!
Great video @DD!
Everyone get out and vote! Vote for the candidate that will protect your second amendment ( right to bear arms) and the first amendment ( your right to free speech)……
Oh, and Tim Walz is not on the ticket…..
Fantastic Job on a rarely covered, yet critical foundation for extreme accuracy. IF you take care of this single issue, more often not the lighter profiled barrels can achieve all the accuracy one would ever need- at least for hunting, where repetitive shots are neither common, nor wanted.👍
If barrel harmonics were not a reality, barrel tuners would not work. The key is recognizing that a barrel is only motionless at the two ends of its natural whip. Load development is all about getting the powder charge just right so the bullet exits the barrel as close as possible to either of these two points since a motionless barrel provides the greatest accuracy. These two motionless endpoints can be easily seen in your diagrams. It also explains the challenge in finding the best factory load for any given rifle, that being the load that hits (pun intended) closest to either of these two endpoints.
Barrel tuners don’t work
All independent scientific testing concludes that they don't work. Even Eric Cortina admits that tuners don't make loads better. The benefits realized by some people is simply the act of adding weight to the barrel.
@desertdogoutdoors1113
I have to disagree here.. If barrel tuners do not work, and this was only beneficial because of adding weight, when setting up the tuner the end user should not see improvements in group size as many in fact do see.. By what your saying, when adjusting the tuner, nothing should have changed as the weight remains the same.
@@ZZ-uf4zv There are numerous UA-cam videos that demonstrate the impact that barrel tuners or resonators have on accuracy. Do they improve the accuracy of every barrel? Absolutely not, just as some reloaders have found when it comes to developing a load for a given rifle. There will be times when the harmonics of a given barrel are so inconsistent that finding a load, a tuner, or a combination of the two makes it impossible to get close enough to those two points where the barrel becomes stationary.
@@davidlaney8254
I know that a tuner isn't gonna make a crap barrel perform. If it doesn't have a decent barrel to start with you are wasting your time and money. But I do think with quality barrels they will improve your groups..
Agree with all you said. I do not follow the "New large sample size crowd promoted by Hornady and maybe others" Maybe excess barrel heat, shooter fatigue over many shots, as well as barrel fouling has more of an affect on Precision. But no matter what all I work for is shot to shot consistency to build confidence for hunting.
DD, a container of ground dwellers is on the way out of a hole. Interesting stuff.
Thanks, I'm just a target shooting hunter I have 2 rifles that always shoot very tight groups, deer rifles 270,350 legend none of my.other rifles can compete there whati always heard called 1 in a thousand barrels ( off the production line) thanks again for your talk
Nodes exist, that's the only thing you need to know.... the theories may be partially wrong but the target doesn't lie.
Very good discussion, thank you. For whatever it means - 2 of my hunting rifles are completely different. 1) my.270 Steyer is so difficult, it will only shoot with a precise load that I developed for it. It will shoot ½ MOA with the right load and 1gn difference shoots a 3" group. On the other hand my .308 Ruger(much cheaper gun) I can through a stone in the front with any powder weight and it will do the same🤷♂️ I think stopped reading and listening to everyone's opinion on load development and just follow one rule... Consistency.. Perfect seating depth, perfect powder measurement, brass quality. At the end for a hunter 1" groups don't matter at ethical distances. We only reload and chance accuracy because it keeps us busy with the business of guns that we all love. But at the end of the day a good ethical hunter, will always have meat on the table, regardless of load development
While I whole heartedly agree with you on having a quality barrel ie, Bartlein, Kreiger, Brux and a few others. I think adjusting harmonics with something like an EC tuner does play a role in tightening up an already good group. The barrel quality and ammo quality are the two biggest factors in the system, taking the nut behind the trigger out of the equation..
Bryan litz would disagree as would most ballisticians
I agree that heavy barrels generally will shoot a better group with less load development .
I also have sporter barrels that shoot very well . I believe the reason is they have a good stress relief along with a good bore ?
This all points to the harmonics having an important affect on accuracy . IMO
Good video.
I agree and disagree. I think everything you mentioned about high quality stiff heavy barrels is generally true. But I also have tuned my reloads so that my factory Ruger American 7mm08 (which shot factory ammo at 1-1.5moa) will consistently shoot .5moa and will, in good conditions, shoot .25moa. My Shilen custom heavy barrel 7mm08 with a 7lb heavy Palma match taper will not shoot that good with any load I’ve tried.
So while I agree, that generally your statement tends to hold true, there are exceptions. I do think that small vibrations do have very meaningful effects down range, and I do think that load testing is worth the time and effort. But, pretty much any 6mm BR loaded with an 88gr Berger on top of 40 grains of Varget will always shoot 10’s.
I'm am kinda new to reloading. Mostly hunting ammo and fun shooting ammo. I have not got a load development plan other than My tikka 270 likes h4831sc with a verity of bullets. So I shoot groups of 3 the ones that are MOA or under and the extreme spread is under 20 I go back and retest. If it repeats close two more times. I use for hunting. Not sure what kind of load development you call that 😂. Good video I have definitely learned from you experience thank you
Hi, I think this is an excellent video. Regarding neck tension/ press fit. Is there a formula for determining this neck tension/aka press fit?
Lee talks about neck tension in his hand loading book and it makes sense to me. Basically he says his dies create a .001” interference fit between the brass and bullet. Any more interference and the bullet is sizing the brass and that can cause inconsistent neck tension. As a rule, certainly no more than .002” interference.
I’ve seen more bad shooters make rifles look bad than I have seen bad rifles. I’ve only shot 2 rifles that I wasn’t comfortable with enough to take hunting. Both were ruger 270’s. One shot a 6” group and the other shot a 4” group. One hole groups are nice. But not necessary for most hunters. Most of them can’t shoot that good anyway.
Great video, triggers critical thinking. What's your opinion on structured barrels ? Added value or not ?
DD, what’s your take on the Winchester BOSS system offered on some of the New Haven Model 70 Classic series?
It reverses directions and adjust the rifle to the ammo instead of making adjustments to the load until it groups well.
Just wondering if you’d ever messed with one of them. Thanks!
Yes barrel quality is the most important - I own 2 lathes and have rechambered hundreds of rifles and have reloaded 41 years! Simple crazy story had a friend that would get short chambered barrels he didn't have a lathe- he used a mikita hand drill in a vise to finish chamber some of his barrels before headspaceing- ! When done these rifles would shoot just as good as other custom rigs! If axual chamber allinemement was the key to anykind of truth we should and could be able to take all of the millions of milsurp Military old bolt rifles mauser-mosins etc 3-. 5 -12 moa and make them better. I doesn't work!!!!! Think about it!
👍
That said thanks for the bias conformation 😂😂👍
Working out what matters, the accuracy you need, where to pay attention and what you can do is tricky.
This helps.
I like the idea of testing ..but ..the results can be dubious..or too similar...the component and barrel life wasted... particularly if looking at statistical significance..
And..as steady as you may get when shooting...you may well be looking at your ability to place every shot aimed exactly at same place...rather than recording actual variances from variables you control.
Then with custom barrels or new barrels..maybe they need a few hundred rounds to settle down.
Recently a rifle with a custom barrel shot very well...say 1/4 moa.small groups..this is several hundred rounds into its 204 life ...I thought it was half moa at best.
Was it me?
The barrel condition?
Environmentals?
You can only guess ..but ..I was very relieved n pleased. One does get spoilt by great results.
I'm concluding that doing what you can do well...case prep and exact powder measures measurement to a modest fps that doesn't stress cases ..with perhaps some brief seating depth tests...to see if something is glaringly obvious is about all you can do.
I like to seat close to the lans...less "wobble" room for the bullet...but...at times I'm forced to seat a fair way back..long throat..and still get great results with a custom barrel.
Primer depth is an issue that's almost beyond practical control.. given that the height of the primer may vary due to the protrusion amount of the anvil...on top of any height variation...after primer pocket uniforming..and using a tool that doesn't index off the extraction ring.
Ended up with KM primer gauge..can't say I've done research to compare results.
Just eliminating as many variables as possible...which may or may not make any real difference...apart from positive. Psychology ..
But...when reaching out to small targets...I want as much accuracy as possible...
That was the short version...ha.
Thanks Mr Dessert.
👍👍🙂🙂🙂
If you want to save money and components when loading. Learn the RAD method. It has nothing to do with harmonics
There are cheap once...Marlin X7