I don't really understand why the two Odins would be considered to be like different people, because actual people tend to be conflicting and contradicting in their personality. It's not too much of a stretch that the person who comes up with several sensible laws and rules of etiquette also decides that they don't apply to him, because that is what real rulers have done since the dawn of time.
I never thought Odin was "acting out of character" in any of the stories. He is one of the oldest, most experienced and wisest beings in the mythology, and he is a god after all, of course he would be very diverse when it comes to characteristics. I think that is what makes him one of the most interesting beings in any belief system.
To me all those traits come together in ‘nobility’. A King is clever, wise but also lusts for blood. He’s the one who recruits the best men he can get. But also has the cleverness to lead a battle and the wisdom to lead his family and his land. That of course, makes Woden the ultimate king and thus the character all other kings claim heritage from. Besides, kings love poetry.
Dr. Crawford thank you for making the fantastic content you do. Making a college level education of old Norse available to someone like me who basically can't afford it. Once I find myself in position to do so I can't wait to join your patreon and I promise never to ask you to translate anything into runes hahaha. I love and appreciate the style of your videos. You seem more ar home were you film then in a California campus. My favorite videos are your reading and translation of the old text. I especially of Havamal. What you are doing by making your trove of information available to the masses at no cost is truly an amazing thing I know there are many like myself who greatly appreciate it. I hope you have a fantastic season and stay well.
I’ve been reading more of the sagas over this lockdown, and your videos have been invaluable to my understanding. Years ago I visited Iceland and wanted so much to see the Saga manuscripts in the museum there- it was shut for a revamp! I nearly cried!
Thought that looked like my state! Hope you enjoyed your time here. You hit the nail on the head with the modern expectation of consistent canon. In every mythos I'm aware of, there are stories that contradict each other or seem "out of character" compared to others. Myths weren't created by a team at Disney, they were created over vast distances and timespans! Nobody was getting together and agreeing how to characterize mythic figures...I think what similarities *did* emerge tell us a lot about that culture's ideals. I wish we had more of that kind of storytelling in this world.
Lovely video, as always, Dr. Crawford. I find it interesting that you attribute wisdom to age and suffering. That is fairly consistent with the literature in psychological research (which is my main academic background, though it may not surprise you to know I have also done a bit of studying in linguistics, Norwegian, and Latin). Details aside, the presence of characteristics associated with wisdom (as wisdom is better operationalized in research as a construct based on a number of simpler concepts, e.g. judgement skills, ability to learn from one's environment, etc.) are also associated with (emotional) suffering in early adulthood and adolescence. This could be due to the link between suffering and being able to manage uncertainty in life, one of the core tenets of Baltes et al.'s Berlin Wisdom Paradigm (the other two being life-span contextualism and moral relativism--both also arguably demonstrated by Odin in his various forms). I'd highly recommend further reading on this subject. Or the Balance Theory of Wisdom--a competing theory.
Dear Sir, this is one of your best videos I've seen so far. And certainly many are those I did not see, but I'm looking foward to watching them. Cheers from a distant lover of wisdom and all things Germanic in Hungary (In civil theacher of (medieval) philosophy and Benedictine monk)
Odin collected the bravest of the dead because of the prophecy. That if Odin and the gods and the einherjar would not fight. Then there would be no hope for the next world. So its not selfishness, its Sacrificing himself and others brave enough, for the next world.
"The wise men of various cultures tend to come to the same conclusions." Alright, it was paraphrased, but it was the idea that is so powerful, like Odin, even if you paraphrase him the being remains, maybe think about what doesn't change with situation or culture...or something.
Thank you for this explanation of ancient vs. modern conception of reception. We expect canon and the ancients, regardless of the culture had other concerns. If the story is well told, run with it.
There was a thread on r/Heathenry while back that generally agreed that the Æsir bare their fangs and guile at the outer perimeter of reality because they have to, and that deep down it really is order they strive for. It’s one that I happen to agree with, namely that order and free will, which go hand in hand, often have to be protected harshly from the chaos of luck, fate and authority.
I've come to the realization that narrative congruence is a chimera. Narrative is so much more robust and flexible. I don't really think it's merely a feature of medieval culture. Think who benefits most from fixed canons. It's the owners of those IPs, whether they are corporations like Marvel/Disney or religious institutions.
Huh, I hadn't parsed it as a contradiction, just complexity. If the gods are meant to be *people*, essentially, they should have complexities to them, no? BTW, I just actually *watched* the opening song bit and I love how the animals are doing things in time to the little percussive accents! My compliments to whoever edited that opening sequence. XD
Edda Odin is a god who was worshipped, he was the single most powerful being to the pre Christian Norse. Saga Odin is less of a god and more of a character in the stories where he plays a standard role, almost a cardboard cutout character, he gives warriors wonderful gifts that must be paid for later. The payment he exacts is tempered by gaining a place in the afterlife that warriors apparently wished for. I think this theme of supernatural gift and payment in stories written for a Christian audience maybe influenced or reinforced by ideas of diabolic temptation at the cost of one's soul. A pagan deity as a provider of wisdom or inventor of writing may have been less acceptable traits to a 13th century audience.
Had a thought during this, could you do a video which compares the modern concept of 'toxic masculinity' with 'drengr' and nordic concepts of gender identity and sexuality?
How however do we characterise Yahweh? Yahweh has a literary existance longer than the Odins. The difference I think is that the religious practices of the Norse, Germans and Saxons never became scripture in the way that surviving traditions have cemented various legends in stone.
So, Christians, writ large, use an internalized model of a God who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, but functionally distant, not much given to regular day-to-day exercise of that omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence. The Norse 'Pagans' saw their gods, particularly Óðinn, as wise and powerful entities who still had scope to increase in wisdom and power, to improve in those realms. Óðinn in particular seems to have not been burdened by any imputation of unmixed benevolence: Óðinn suffered almost unimaginably in his search for wisdom, and was thought to be willing to inflict violent premature death on the best of men for his own ends.
Do we know if the Einherjer were actively protecting the world against the forces of evil, and thus delaying Ragnarok? Perhaps Odin just wanted to save the world - in his own violent way.
@@gabrivalen5435 Medieval is usually perceived as something before being forced to convert to Christendom. The medieval period is after Antiquity but before the Renaissance, and is usually stated as starting with Æmunðær slemæs (Edmund the old) reign from about 1050 or something similar.
@@gabrivalen5435 Scandinavia was not part of the civilised world in antiquity. There was trade and travel, influence of iconography, technology, agriculture etc but without writing, urban settlement and central power... barbaric! 😉 As a consept, scandinavian iron age turns medieval with the introduction of christianity in the early 1000s
So much of Norse myth has been bastardized in popular culture and "Romanized" in its scholarly interpretation. It is difficult to find genuine scholarship amidst all the "self-evident cultural interpretation" (otherwise known as "stuff people made up"). I have a genuine curiousity about if Odin and Loki were originally the same individual in their beginning, but became two personas later as human beings began to flesh out their expectations of their gods. Both are clever, both are tricksters, and the origins of their friendship is mysterious but Loki's responses seem to be more extreme. I can see how, as the myths evolved in their telling, someone might decide "the All-Father wouldn't act that way, it must have been someone else who was with him" and eventually that person evolved into Loki. My question is has anyone ever found any evidence that Odin and Loki had a common origin?
No, likely, Loki began as Odin's brother Lodurr/Ve. He often plays a helper for Odin, pulling the tricks when Odin needs to act more dignified. Notably, Odin, Hoenir, and Lodurr are said to have created humanity in Voluspa but Odin is clearly said to have created the cosmos and humans with the help of his two brothers in Snorri's Edda. Notably, Ve's name means "sanctifying energy" and he gives life force to humans. In time, Loki metastasized to become his own thing with his own family, though even in his current form, his brothers have names connected to Odin's epithets. There is, however, a philosophical aspect to Odin and his brothers. They aren't manifestations of natural phenomena like Thor, Tyr, and Skadi are. Instead, they're manifestations of more philosophical concepts like inspiration, willpower, and sanctifying energy. They form a trinity of wisdom and the two lesser brothers act essentially as extensions of Odin and not deities in their own right.
Do you think saga odin was purposefully distorted by dark people/ magicians? Many books are distorted, mistranslated, omitted to keep poeple confused and away from Truth.
Now I'm envisaging a future historian explaining how early 21st Century audiences were less interested in the conflicts in character between original series Darth Vader and Prequel Trilogy Darth Vader. Perhaps the real difference is that the historical record has not preserved the Medieval Scandinavian equivalent of nerdy angry message boards.
To help fill in things my grandfather Chirstian 10th let Tolkien in to the Danish royal library , the vikings are Persian Ayrains. As well as Persian Germans .... I point you to his sons book the lays. Sig and Godrun. ..
In other videos/sources, I’ve learned that Tyr was likely the leader of the Aesir sometime before the sagas/eddas were written down. He is a god of war, honor, and justice, that I think, in the later Viking period, was largely assimilated into Odin’s personality. He gave up his hand, for the benefit of others; that level of self-sacrifice must points to his deep knowledge of oath etiquette, and a wealth of wisdom. My opinion is that some ‘inconsistencies’ could have been caused by the process of trying to synchronize the two gods, who had strong similarities, but even stronger differences. The more ‘orderly’ Odin probably has a stronger influence from Tyr, and the more ambitious, and ruthless Odin likely has less of Tyr’s characteristics.
Tyr sacrificed a hand to bind the Fenris wolf, yes. And Odin sacrificed an eye for wisdom. Odin also famously 'sacrificed himself to himself' to learn the secret of the runes.
I like Havamal Odin. Plain-speaking wisdom, for the most part.
I don't really understand why the two Odins would be considered to be like different people, because actual people tend to be conflicting and contradicting in their personality. It's not too much of a stretch that the person who comes up with several sensible laws and rules of etiquette also decides that they don't apply to him, because that is what real rulers have done since the dawn of time.
I never thought Odin was "acting out of character" in any of the stories. He is one of the oldest, most experienced and wisest beings in the mythology, and he is a god after all, of course he would be very diverse when it comes to characteristics. I think that is what makes him one of the most interesting beings in any belief system.
To me all those traits come together in ‘nobility’. A King is clever, wise but also lusts for blood. He’s the one who recruits the best men he can get. But also has the cleverness to lead a battle and the wisdom to lead his family and his land.
That of course, makes Woden the ultimate king and thus the character all other kings claim heritage from.
Besides, kings love poetry.
Very well put. Odin is operating on a different moral playing field than what is contemporary
Just like Jupiter/Zeus. The perfect ideal of the King.
Dr. Crawford thank you for making the fantastic content you do. Making a college level education of old Norse available to someone like me who basically can't afford it. Once I find myself in position to do so I can't wait to join your patreon and I promise never to ask you to translate anything into runes hahaha. I love and appreciate the style of your videos. You seem more ar home were you film then in a California campus. My favorite videos are your reading and translation of the old text. I especially of Havamal. What you are doing by making your trove of information available to the masses at no cost is truly an amazing thing I know there are many like myself who greatly appreciate it. I hope you have a fantastic season and stay well.
I’ve been reading more of the sagas over this lockdown, and your videos have been invaluable to my understanding. Years ago I visited Iceland and wanted so much to see the Saga manuscripts in the museum there- it was shut for a revamp! I nearly cried!
I just bought your Wanderers Hávamal. Thanks for providing this literature at an affordable price.
Thought that looked like my state! Hope you enjoyed your time here.
You hit the nail on the head with the modern expectation of consistent canon. In every mythos I'm aware of, there are stories that contradict each other or seem "out of character" compared to others. Myths weren't created by a team at Disney, they were created over vast distances and timespans! Nobody was getting together and agreeing how to characterize mythic figures...I think what similarities *did* emerge tell us a lot about that culture's ideals. I wish we had more of that kind of storytelling in this world.
Fanfic sequel lol, that cracked me up.
I am binge-watching these videos by Jackson Crawford since a couple of weeks. Brilliant stuff well told. Excellent work!
Very interesting! Thanks for sharing on UA-cam and not only with your patrons. It's appreciated 🤠
Lovely video, as always, Dr. Crawford. I find it interesting that you attribute wisdom to age and suffering. That is fairly consistent with the literature in psychological research (which is my main academic background, though it may not surprise you to know I have also done a bit of studying in linguistics, Norwegian, and Latin). Details aside, the presence of characteristics associated with wisdom (as wisdom is better operationalized in research as a construct based on a number of simpler concepts, e.g. judgement skills, ability to learn from one's environment, etc.) are also associated with (emotional) suffering in early adulthood and adolescence. This could be due to the link between suffering and being able to manage uncertainty in life, one of the core tenets of Baltes et al.'s Berlin Wisdom Paradigm (the other two being life-span contextualism and moral relativism--both also arguably demonstrated by Odin in his various forms). I'd highly recommend further reading on this subject. Or the Balance Theory of Wisdom--a competing theory.
Context... Context.... Context. Changes everything. Thanks for this video.
Dear Sir,
this is one of your best videos I've seen so far.
And certainly many are those I did not see,
but I'm looking foward to watching them.
Cheers
from a distant lover of wisdom and all things Germanic
in Hungary
(In civil theacher of (medieval) philosophy and Benedictine monk)
Finally. Thank you. This is something that bother me... I needed this information.
Odin collected the bravest of the dead because of the prophecy. That if Odin and the gods and the einherjar would not fight. Then there would be no hope for the next world. So its not selfishness, its Sacrificing himself and others brave enough, for the next world.
"The wise men of various cultures tend to come to the same conclusions." Alright, it was paraphrased, but it was the idea that is so powerful, like Odin, even if you paraphrase him the being remains, maybe think about what doesn't change with situation or culture...or something.
Thank you for this explanation of ancient vs. modern conception of reception. We expect canon and the ancients, regardless of the culture had other concerns. If the story is well told, run with it.
It reminds me of that red polo shirt kid from WOWcon who found a contradiction in the WOW story and everyone went nuts
There was a thread on r/Heathenry while back that generally agreed that the Æsir bare their fangs and guile at the outer perimeter of reality because they have to, and that deep down it really is order they strive for. It’s one that I happen to agree with, namely that order and free will, which go hand in hand, often have to be protected harshly from the chaos of luck, fate and authority.
What is that Matterhorn-look-alike peak behind you, Jackson? 🤔😃
This is a great subject
Thank you: this is a very good exposition and explanation of the issue.
I've come to the realization that narrative congruence is a chimera. Narrative is so much more robust and flexible. I don't really think it's merely a feature of medieval culture. Think who benefits most from fixed canons. It's the owners of those IPs, whether they are corporations like Marvel/Disney or religious institutions.
Huh, I hadn't parsed it as a contradiction, just complexity. If the gods are meant to be *people*, essentially, they should have complexities to them, no?
BTW, I just actually *watched* the opening song bit and I love how the animals are doing things in time to the little percussive accents! My compliments to whoever edited that opening sequence. XD
Odin is a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of guy
Odin: You should be mindful about your drinking. I know what it's like to wake up hung over, with bits of vomit stuck to my finest cloack...
Thank you for these videos!!
Am I the only one who thought that the Vader analogy was that U was buying crackers *for* Darth Vader.
I think Colorado is the closest you can get to Norway in the continental US
awesome video
Im very curious to know more of njord more than which i can find about him on google or in most common reads what more can you teach me of Njord
Edda Odin is a god who was worshipped, he was the single most powerful being to the pre Christian Norse.
Saga Odin is less of a god and more of a character in the stories where he plays a standard role, almost a cardboard cutout character, he gives warriors wonderful gifts that must be paid for later. The payment he exacts is tempered by gaining a place in the afterlife that warriors apparently wished for.
I think this theme of supernatural gift and payment in stories written for a Christian audience maybe influenced or reinforced by ideas of diabolic temptation at the cost of one's soul. A pagan deity as a provider of wisdom or inventor of writing may have been less acceptable traits to a 13th century audience.
Thanks!
Had a thought during this, could you do a video which compares the modern concept of 'toxic masculinity' with 'drengr' and nordic concepts of gender identity and sexuality?
I don't think the vikings spent any amount of time discussing gender identity *lol* That would be quite the anachronism.
Interesting, thanks!
How however do we characterise Yahweh? Yahweh has a literary existance longer than the Odins. The difference I think is that the religious practices of the Norse, Germans and Saxons never became scripture in the way that surviving traditions have cemented various legends in stone.
Or then again in our modern legends is there a canonical Batman even?
Yahweh, Phonecian storm or thunder god, whose followers persecuted the followers of other gods- at Yahweh's command.
@@MrOdinswulf Well as you know the victors get to write the history, what if Hannibal had have conquered Rome, what then?
So, Christians, writ large, use an internalized model of a God who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, but functionally distant, not much given to regular day-to-day exercise of that omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence. The Norse 'Pagans' saw their gods, particularly Óðinn, as wise and powerful entities who still had scope to increase in wisdom and power, to improve in those realms. Óðinn in particular seems to have not been burdened by any imputation of unmixed benevolence: Óðinn suffered almost unimaginably in his search for wisdom, and was thought to be willing to inflict violent premature death on the best of men for his own ends.
Do we know if the Einherjer were actively protecting the world against the forces of evil, and thus delaying Ragnarok? Perhaps Odin just wanted to save the world - in his own violent way.
Odin is similar to Shiva.
Isn’t shiva the destroyer? Wouldn’t Surtr be more like shiva?
Not at all.
A few similarities, mostly due to the Vedic god Rudra.
As a swedish-man it's strange to hear the time 800-1000 spoken of as medieval
How come?
The saga`s were written down in 1200-1400, this is why he speaks of medieval.
@@gabrivalen5435 Medieval is usually perceived as something before being forced to convert to Christendom. The medieval period is after Antiquity but before the Renaissance, and is usually stated as starting with Æmunðær slemæs (Edmund the old) reign from about 1050 or something similar.
Scholars consider the medieval period to begin with the 5th century collapse of Roman civilization.
@@gabrivalen5435 Scandinavia was not part of the civilised world in antiquity.
There was trade and travel, influence of iconography, technology, agriculture etc
but without writing, urban settlement and central power... barbaric! 😉
As a consept, scandinavian iron age turns medieval with the introduction of christianity in the early 1000s
So much of Norse myth has been bastardized in popular culture and "Romanized" in its scholarly interpretation. It is difficult to find genuine scholarship amidst all the "self-evident cultural interpretation" (otherwise known as "stuff people made up").
I have a genuine curiousity about if Odin and Loki were originally the same individual in their beginning, but became two personas later as human beings began to flesh out their expectations of their gods.
Both are clever, both are tricksters, and the origins of their friendship is mysterious but Loki's responses seem to be more extreme. I can see how, as the myths evolved in their telling, someone might decide "the All-Father wouldn't act that way, it must have been someone else who was with him" and eventually that person evolved into Loki.
My question is has anyone ever found any evidence that Odin and Loki had a common origin?
No, likely, Loki began as Odin's brother Lodurr/Ve. He often plays a helper for Odin, pulling the tricks when Odin needs to act more dignified. Notably, Odin, Hoenir, and Lodurr are said to have created humanity in Voluspa but Odin is clearly said to have created the cosmos and humans with the help of his two brothers in Snorri's Edda. Notably, Ve's name means "sanctifying energy" and he gives life force to humans. In time, Loki metastasized to become his own thing with his own family, though even in his current form, his brothers have names connected to Odin's epithets. There is, however, a philosophical aspect to Odin and his brothers. They aren't manifestations of natural phenomena like Thor, Tyr, and Skadi are. Instead, they're manifestations of more philosophical concepts like inspiration, willpower, and sanctifying energy. They form a trinity of wisdom and the two lesser brothers act essentially as extensions of Odin and not deities in their own right.
Do you think saga odin was purposefully distorted by dark people/ magicians?
Many books are distorted, mistranslated, omitted to keep poeple confused and away from Truth.
"Dark people"
You might wanna look at your choice of vocabulary XD
And what 'Truth' about Odin would these 'dark people' keep people away from?
Now I'm envisaging a future historian explaining how early 21st Century audiences were less interested in the conflicts in character between original series Darth Vader and Prequel Trilogy Darth Vader.
Perhaps the real difference is that the historical record has not preserved the Medieval Scandinavian equivalent of nerdy angry message boards.
To help fill in things my grandfather Chirstian 10th let Tolkien in to the Danish royal library , the vikings are Persian Ayrains. As well as Persian Germans .... I point you to his sons book the lays. Sig and Godrun. ..
And the Bible is Persian Ayrain as well as the Koran. . You have 14 tribe's of son of man and 12 tribe's of man.
Example Ezekiel. And king Syrus king of kings lord of lords son of man king of all of Persia and the 4 corners of the world.
Odin lived in the city of God's. It was in galma Persia 12k. Years ago when the great Ayrain war's started by nimrod
I have a book of all books. It is written in galma Norse if you are intrested
Schizophrenic ramblings.
In other videos/sources, I’ve learned that Tyr was likely the leader of the Aesir sometime before the sagas/eddas were written down. He is a god of war, honor, and justice, that I think, in the later Viking period, was largely assimilated into Odin’s personality. He gave up his hand, for the benefit of others; that level of self-sacrifice must points to his deep knowledge of oath etiquette, and a wealth of wisdom. My opinion is that some ‘inconsistencies’ could have been caused by the process of trying to synchronize the two gods, who had strong similarities, but even stronger differences. The more ‘orderly’ Odin probably has a stronger influence from Tyr, and the more ambitious, and ruthless Odin likely has less of Tyr’s characteristics.
Welcome to my home. I instantly recognized your location. Spend many days a year in that country.
Great video.
Tyr sacrificed a hand to bind the Fenris wolf, yes. And Odin sacrificed an eye for wisdom. Odin also famously 'sacrificed himself to himself' to learn the secret of the runes.