The Science of Autism & Gender Dysphoria (with
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2022
- Autism and Gender Dysphoria seem to have some link that scientists have yet to crack, but our Patrons tasked us with getting to the bottom of this. So NoahFinnce, the fifth Sci Guy, joins us this week as we discuss the relationship between being autistic & being trans...
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Are you autistic? Do you have gender dysphoria?
I have gender dysphoria. I am not diagnosed autistic
Guess I'm greedy cuz both
'Potentially' is the vibe 😅
diagnosed with both :)
I'm autistic and I do have gender dysphoria
For me, the day I thought to myself "screw masking, I'm never going to be a normie anyway," was also the day I realized I'm not cis.
Thiiiiss. Exactly this. When I noticed I wouldn't fit in anyways, I was much more happy dressing the way I wanted and expressing the way I wanted.
@Amy Ritchie With a pfp like that, I can't tell if you're a troll or not, I'm going to be optimistic and hope you're a real person
ooops accidentaly told too much but i will leave it like that cause maybe someone is interested? anyways hope you all a very good life with many conclusions made properly lol
Yea
This and me deciding to rewatch My Little Pony
I have autism and am non-binary, but instead of normal gender dysphoria, I get almost exclusively social dysphoria from not looking like the person I truly am. I don't like that people perceive me the way they do, which includes people not seeing me as non-binary. So if I were with myself only, I wouldn't experience any dysphoria at all because there's nobody there to perceive me "wrong".
Edit: I do get some gender euphoria though when I'm alone by looking myself in the mirror and I'm able to see a glimpse of myself.
Same!!! Home alone I feel so free and unburdened, then have to go out and try to feel remotely comfortable by trying on a thousand outfits to see which one might express how I feel, or if my haircut fits into that, rather than how I’d be alone. Quarantine was basically a little experiment for me, and seeing how I went in to it and out is very interesting to me cause freedom got in the mix!
Me too
Omg! That's exactly how I feel! I don't feel dysphoric alone; however, I do experience it in relation to how others interact with my body.
me too, im autistic and agender
Thanks for liking my comment! I love making comments on the off-chance that it can help someone relate or even understand something new about themselves! I'm one of those people who loves teaching others
As an autistic person (I think cis but not fully sure) this transphobic idea of autistics being to dumb and incompetent to even know their own gender makes me so angry, but also I hate how little this is talked about
I absolutely hate it. It's more of us being more aware of our own thoughts and feelings due to us being disconnected from society and it's own rules.
@@fabianshedenhelm2986 exactly! We don’t care as much about societal rules so it’s easier to outwardly go against them
I'm fond of pointing out that trans and autistic people tend to be overrepresented in the scientific, computing, and creative fields. I'm nonbinary and I'm a freelance editor, writer, and illustrator. I have a lot of the signs of ASD but was never diagnosed, so I'm currently looking into that with a new doctor.
I also have autism (diagnosed as aspergers) and do think, my autism is tied to my gender experience (see autigender). But I still identify as cis. Most people hate my experience on this: people with asd hate it, because (I say) they don't understand the term (autigender) and NT's hate it, because "I just want to have something special"...
Sorry for my experience, I guess? Oh well...
It's kind of the same mentality that transphobes have about children, like "children don't know what they are, they think they're unicorns, and we're letting them pick their gender?" It's this idea that autistic people are somehow more susceptible to "social contagion" (such as the way they view being trans) and that somehow they're supposed to protect autistic people from it. It's really quite demeaning and ableist, like they think autistic people are too gullible, and they're being tricked into thinking they're trans because of that supposed over-trustworthiness. It's ridiculous and probably quite insulting to autistic trans people.
45:18 i think it’s worth noting that the “demigods have adhd because they’re battle-ready” thing definitely wasn’t born of science, it was just the author giving demigods adhd because his son has adhd and he wanted him to relate to them
wait that's so cute
PJO FANSSSS
I think a really cool way of thinking about being neurotypical and neurodivergent is like being right handed or left handed. It's not a defect or some weird add on, but it's still harder to be a lefty in some cases because our world is set up for right handed ppl. Yes it is harder to use right handed scissors if you are left handed but it's not because your hands are not working
weyyy thats really good especially since i think some neurodivergent conditions (?) also make it way easier to be left handed by accident bc of differences in processing and motor control
Yepppp, the whole "social deficits" part of autism has shown to be actually not true. What is actually the case is that people may appear to have "social deficits" if they are in a group of people of different neuroype. Autistic people in a group of autistic people will (probably) not have those social issues
I say probably because social anxiety can still be the case and autism is a big umbrella term and two people on the spectrum may have neurotypes further apart and have communication issues.
As a left handed person, I bring this perspective up a lot in conversations about our societal biases, because left handedness literally used to be seen as evil or weak and just generally bad for whatever reason but now most people think that notion is ridiculous. I can't wait until we as a species can look back and say "how did people think that, that's so dumb." About our current biases.
I love that analogy and I'm probably going to steal it BUT I would rephrase it to make it more specific to autistic and allistic. Where would you draw the line between neurodivergent and neurotypical? Because when you see any difference in processing as neurodivergent, than left handedness counts as ND. So does red-green deficiency or aphantasia. This highlights that society decided to accomodate for certain neurodivergences but not others.
Wow, that‘s a really good metaphor!
I have autism and adhd and im a trans guy so I'm so excited to listen to yall talk about this because it's something I just love. trans autistic ppl are awesome
Dude same!
same, hello👋🏽
same
Dude, same! (But with me just being Autistic)
dude are any of these boys trans or autistic???
I'm autistic and trans, I also have ADD. I always thought that the reason why lots of autistic people are trans is because we don't typically have the urge to fit in socially, or to mimic what we see in others as much.
As we tend to be better on our own since childhood, we might be less permeable to norms in general, and have a very personal sense of self, including gender. There simply isn't any incentive strong enough to force an autistic child to do something if it makes them uncomfortable, hence the impression that we are socially inept.
I would rip my skirts and dresses up, until my mom stop trying to make me wear them, I didn't care how I looked in public with a tattered dress, just didn't care about what others think.
I think that's the thing : we don't mold ourselves to please others. And... Cupcake!
That's kind of funny because I feel almost the opposite experience. Like, at its root it's the exact same feeling of not understanding the norms, but I feel like there was already so much stuff I was expected to do that made no sense to me (sitting still in class, doing these "oh you should not have!" social dances when receiving gifts, making up excuses instead of just rejecting an invitation because I did not want to go, etc etc) but I still memorised so I could make friends (I am very much an extrovert) and not be shouted at, that I just added gender to the list. I remember reading those old-timey "how to be a lady" books when I found them and being so happy that there WAS a guide to this and I could just follow it and then I would know how to properly act like the human I was supposed to.
Ofc I struggled with the general concept of how NTs do socialisation, but I also knew that if I were to learn it, I should learn the woman category, so that is what I did. I am now 29 and it was only in the past 2 years (thanks pandemic?) that I started unravelling this. For me the first string I pulled was ADHD but then it all just kept following once I had given myself permission to analyse and question the bulk of it.
“There simply isn't any incentive strong enough to force an autistic child to do something if it makes them uncomfortable, hence the impression that we are socially inept.” I think a lot of women mask, but I didn’t mask and this statement describes my relationship to the world.
Ok but if those neurotypical persons feel gender dysforia and just don't express it would not mean that they are trans or non-binary and they're just in the closet?
i understand what you said relates to what you’ve experienced but a lot of what u said is typical of autism is not necessarily.
That's not being trans tho...Its being Gender non conforming..
Here’s my question/theory. As a Non-Binary person who also suspects that they are nurodiverse… could the fact that in general Trans people are very self aware and aware of how they feel in their body that they are therefore more likely to notice neurological differences to others? Because a large amount as being a trans person, for me, was self discovery and identifying how I feel in society
i agree with that theory
@@rupertcadell2685 yes that is true, being autistic and gay are not mutually exclusive . However, there are a number of LGBTQ+ people who also have neurological differences (as suggested by this podcast) and that therefore calls into question the inherent nature of self discovery and acceptance. But yes, you still continue to be absolutely correct and my idea will not apply to all LGBTQ people and to all neuro-diverse people. Yet my idea/theory still may apply to others and apply to myself.
@@rupertcadell2685 Wow, does this comment piss me off as an autistic person who is part of the LGBTQ community. Among autistic people there appears to be a higher percentage of people who are trans or non-binary and also gay or bisexual. (Anecdotally this is true among my autistic and LGBTQ friends.) Doesn’t make your brother part of the LGBTQ community. But way to make this about your bigotry.
@@nefree0420 idk why you're trying to have polite discourse with a raging queerphobe. i doubt they actually care at all about this topic beyond how much they hate lgbtqia+ people.
@@rupertcadell2685 lol, touch grass dude
Something as an autistic trans person that has always stood out to me as a reason we may be more likely to identify as trans is that we simply don’t understand *why* gender is considered how it is. Something that I (and most neurodiverse people I know) have always done is question why I have to do/be certain things. For me, I’ve never really internalized gender as something that matters, and I’ve always felt really weird about being given “roles” to play because of perceived gender. But I never really understood and social things, so I thought it was just that and performed my gender a little to the left of what the other girls did. That didn’t stop me from wondering why we had to go to specific bathrooms or why the boys were told to do things I wasn’t or why people cared about having friends of your own gender. It was only in my teenaged years that I was able to accept that I’m neurodivergent and trans, and because of that I haven’t held back questioning social things anymore, because I shouldn’t be ashamed of being different and wondering why I’m not accepted in the normal.
I'm not trans, but this so perfectly described my experience that I'm now questioning whether or not I have autism XD.
I’m autistic and experienced gender dysphoria through my teenage (13-17) years (though luckily not anymore). I no longer ID as trans, and don’t really comprehend the idea of gender or anything like that, and just express myself physically how I feel on the day as just “me”. I dress gender non conforming regularly and for me autism definitely affects my perception of gender in myself and others.
Reminder to everyone that being trans, queer, autistic, neurodivergent etc. is beautiful and you deserve love!
To me, gender is just another social rule that I don't understand, like eye contact, and handshakes. I wear things I feel comfortable in regardless of what the tag says for gender. I kind of vibe with the term "genderqueer" but don't put too much stock in labels. When I was 4 I wondered why I wasn't born as the opposite sex, but I'm fine as long as I'm able to dress in ways I'm comfortable with, which is largely unisex styles.
I think "being me" is really the best thing anybody can do, honestly. Anything else is just sort of...false advertising, at best. You know?
Thanks for mentioning the intersection of ableism and transphobia there. My gender therapist thinks I can't know myself because I'm aut!stic and I mask.
It's actually a consequence of the old theory of mind deficit conception of autism, a lot of researchers take it to mean that autistic people can't comprehend their own mind. I forget the exact phrasing, but there was a respected autism expert that stated something like, "autistic people can never be the authors of their own lives."
@@robokill387 Thanks for contributing :)
I thought the theory of mind deficit was supposed to refer to a supposed lack of understanding that other people have minds, not a lack of understanding of your own mind. It's obviously BS that aut!stic people don't have theory of mind. I understand that other people have minds, but I also understand that allistics think radically differently from me so I don't assume I intuitively know what's going on in their heads.
Or is that not the theory you were referring to? I couldn't find the quote about aut!stics not being able to be the author of their own lives.
My gender clinician actually wrote peer reviewed articles about why he thinks aut!stic trans people should not be assumed capable of making the decision to transition on their own. He didn't mention theory of mind at all. He has several other (bullsh!t) reasons, most of which he said out loud to my face, and most of which he wrote in respected books and scientific journals, without consequence.
He hinges his arguments on things like:
'aut!stics are confusing sensory sensitivities with gender dysphoria',
'they're just doing an obsessive compulsive special interest thing that they'll grow out of',
'aut!stics have poor episodic memory, which also influences their insights into their own future',
'aut!stics are easily manipulated by others',
'aut!stic rigid thinking causes them to be stuck on being one gender and unwilling to consider that they're not that',
'aut!stics get bullied by their peers and don't feel they belong, so they start thinking they must belong to a different group',
'aut!stics have difficulty with change, and they're confusing the distress that the changes of puberty brings them with gender dysphoria',
'gender is a developmental process and aut!stics are developmentally delayed, so their gender can still be changed back to cis for a very long time, no time limit really' (and changing it back to cis should be the goal, because that's the least medically invasive/damaging way to cure gender dysphoria),
or the one he stuck with most for me specifically because it was the one thing I didn't have an obvious counterargument to: 'having masked for an extended period of time causes loss of knowledge of your own identity, so how could you know?'
Etc etc.
On a happier note, last month I got top surgery regardless! This douche didn't get the sole vote on whether I got to transition or not. It was a team decision. I wasn't allowed to be present during the discussion, so I don't know who suddenly stuck up for me and got me my permission, but I owe my life to someone there in that clinic.
Now that it's over, thinking back to the worried, displeased and sheepish look on his face as he had to be the one to break the news that I would in fact be allowed to transition, but still trying to convince me that it wasn't too late and I shouldn't do it, idk I feel victorious :)
Woman aspie here! I’ve been taking my time thinking through my gender for the past few months, and I think the reason I haven’t been able to settle in being a “woman” despite being female is largely due to the never ending messaging about how/what a woman should be like. I never felt insecure in of myself, but rather had a hard time navigating gender as a social construct because the criteria for “woman” vary so wildly. Learning about gender and exploring your own gender is never the issue - it’s being forced to navigate it based on others’ terms
I am AFAB non-binary and I have OCD. It’s a lot of my personality. Most of my dysphoria is social as well/
I find that I don’t fit in with NT cis women. My friends who are women are also ND.
What I wrote above: I am likely autistic but haven’t yet been diagnosed. I have a cousin who is autistic and there is definitely neurodiversity in my family. I was tomboyish as a kid, but never thought I was a boy. When I started menstruating and developed breasts, I was a bit annoyed but there wasn’t the more serious trauma of gender dysphoria from my periods every month. I’ve given my own gender a lot of thought and concluded that I’m a cis woman whose gender expression isn’t very “girly” usually. Gender identity and gender expression are two separate things.
YES. YES YES. Accurate! From an afab nonbinary
Feminism is all about crushing the gender limitations, so I recomend forgetting the need to have a label for every little thing, and discovering the world a bit. We are all struggling with something, it changes throughout history thanks to people shaking the norms, not because of people changing themselves to fit the norms of the other sex.
1:07:20 this almost makes it seem like being autistic doesn’t mean you’re more likely to be trans, it just means you’re more likely to be out
Yep, which means the overall prevalence of trans people is actually higher than we think.
I am trans and I have ADHD and I am on the spectrum. I am 42, I started my transition socially 1,5 years ago, and now I finally have my first appointment with the gender clinic in December (long, long waiting list). When I started to accept my transness, I started to pretend less, and more myself I was, more "symptoms" came about form the neuro side. I can see now, looking back my life, I was trans and I had these neuro-issues all my life, but the will and need to fit in was so incredibly strong, that I did all I could to escape any more labels ( I was heavily bullied at school). More than anything I am just angry. Not a single adult in my life wanted to know how I was, and tried to understand my behaviour. I would have had so much easier life, if I'd had the support I needed. Now, at the ripe age of 42 I have to learn myself completely new.
8:06 funnily enough, this IS my first Sci Guys episode and I decided to have a listen bc I'm autistic and non-binary. and the banter in this first 8 minutes was enough to make me subscribe, so that's your answer there
EDIT: also now that I've gotten to this part of the video, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ADDRESSING THE ABLEISM AND TRANSPHOBIA AROUND TRANS AND AUTISTIC PPL. it's gotten so bad to the point that any mention of "oh a lot of trans people are autistic" puts my guard up, and I even went into this video with a lot of caution because of that. I'm fairly certain my autism has a lot to do with me being non-binary, because I feel like I'm on an entirely different playing field gender-wise. like I have ascended society's view of gender. but that doesn't mean I'm a poor little child who can't think for themself and can't tell what gender they are. I know what I want and how I feel just fine
Probably the most respectful discussion of autistic people i've heard yet on the internet by allistics (sorry if that assumption is wrong tho, im a first time viewer and it seems like other than noah they're all allistic?). Just wow, the amount of times I was about to add something in my head and then it was said made me feel so happy and so so seen. I'm autistic, so its great to see such a great discussion about it. I rarely watch podcasts but I sat through this whole thing. Never knew about this podcast before (I came bc i saw Noah and kinda knew of him), but I'm defintiely checking you all out now. :))) Again, best discussion i've seen about autistics in a good while, even down to exact terminology being used, identity first wording by the head-person of the discussion, and even discussing the details of the autistic experience. tysm!! 💛
I don't really have anything to add except SAME! This gives me hope that there will be more good podcast episodes and video essays about these topics in the future.
loved this episode. i'm a trans guy and i am 99% sure that i have both autism and adhd. loved hearing about noah's experiences
This is a perfect and timely episode. Just the other day I was talking with my mum and therapist about my gender dysphoria and my mum bought up the idea of testing to see if I was autistic because apparently that would explain my social dysphoria. I was feeling quite frustrated about that, because gender dysphoria is not a symptom of autism. I hope that I am able to communicate to her that so she doesn't discount and ignore my feelings of dysphoria.
I experienced gender dysphoria for the first 30 some years of my life without body dysphoria. I’m autistic with ADHD. I have felt more in the middle regarding gender but slightly more male. I’ve been fine with this body of mine (but not how society treated me except for the people who without prompting told me I was more like a male to them without me ever saying anything before or after despite my being femme presenting)-I just see it as what I got for this ride on the planet. I write this because I wouldn’t write off what your mother said because so many of us appear to be non-binary. I think it’s important to tease though all of what’s happening before making a decision about transitioning.
@@IExpectedBSJustNotThisMuchBS thats valid. Im pretty sure about my identity, I experience social and physical dysphoria. I am ready to transition but my mum is trying to make me prolong the decision with this. If i do or dont have austism, I dont think it would make any difference when it comes to my gender. I will look into it still, but alongside everything else.
yep I used to identify as trans and grew out of it. As autistics we experience social dysphoria more bc we don't play out typical gender roles neurotypical people do unconciously.
My mum once told me she thought my ASD was what caused me being trans and that if I wasn't ASD I wouldn't be trans. Which upset me heaps, I think it's similar to how if you have ASD you're more likely to have ADHD but that doesn't mean ASD causes ADHD (or the opposite)
I was told by one of my psychologists some 12-15 years ago that being gender divergent is more common in neurodivergent people
He didn't use those words but I think that sums up the basis of what he was trying to convey.
Something like; we find that a large number of trans people also have Autism / Asperger's / other pervasive conditions
I haven't watched the video yet and I'm not sure if the medical world has changed its stance on this in the past 10+ years
Autistic and transfemme here :)
A blend of social nonconformance, hyperawareness, a special interest in role-playing games (which fostered exploration of identity along multiple axes in a state of play), and a critical period of hyperfixation on the topic of gender identity all facilitated the discovery of my trans identity. I would attribute all of those behaviours to ASD.
I have Autism, ADHD and am Genderfluid. I'm so glad to hear Noah talking about the sensory issues with that come with Binding. I love the way I look on a Masc day with a binder but I hate the way it feels so it's very wear I will wear one on a Masc day beacuse the discomfort from the way the binder feels is often worse then the discomfort from the Dysphoria
I have a son who is autistic and far as I know he is cis gender...,my other son is trans and far as I know he is not autistic but we do suspect he has inattentive ADHD..his brother had combined ADHD..fun times in our household
I loved the discussion about subjects and categories because it’s something I’ve been contemplating for a while. In my opinion, the way we are taught subjects in schools doesn’t really “work.” It’s all too isolated, and after a while those gaps create disconnects that the curriculum will have to account for; you can’t learn advanced biology without a certain level of math skills, you can’t properly analyze a non-fictional text if you don’t know the historical context.
It’s easier to test students if subjects are taught categorically, but I think a much better (and long lasting) understanding would be easier to achieve if that type of teaching wasn’t as normalized.
I've been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome, which is nowadays referred to as ASD (Autistic Spectrum Disorder) Type 1 - due to the associations with Hans Asperger (He's German, and wrote about it in the early 1940s - you can see the connotations). However there's two points to this that I want to mention -
1. I consider myself as a person "diagnosed" with Autism - not necessarily "Autistic" because for me although it's handy to point to this diagnosis or label to explain my clusters of behaviour and difficulty with interacting with society, I don't wish to sum myself up as an "autistic" person, because I don't want that word or diagnosis to encompass everything about me.
2. I did struggle with gender dysphoria for a while. Not necessarily to the point of needing to transition, but noticing how different I am to other neurotypical males in terms of behaviour, the people and interests I associate with and the way in which I feel about being perceived as "masculine" because I know that I don't live up to societal expectations of how a man "should" be. I questioned it for a long while, wondering if the reason I don't fit in, is because I was "trans" and took the descriptor of "being trapped in the wrong body" pretty literally (the autistic thing). In the end, with a lot of soul searching and questions around the way in which society perceives transgender people, I decided that it was better for me to keep the descriptor of "male", not because I identify 100% with it, but because I want to shift people's perception of what it is to be male. So I'm more likely to be fascinated with something considered stereotypically "feminine" for e.g. like knitting or makeup than I am to talk about football scores.
All I'm trying to say is that people are complicated, unique and individual. None of us fit into boxes, and no one is 100% satisfied with their lives, we all disappoint people, but it's really up to yourself of how much satisfaction or disappointment you can live with in yourself. Love yourself unconditionally and surround yourself with people who also love you for who you are (even if you're still trying to figure yourself out), and eventually you'll find a way through your journey of self-discovery wherever it leads.
Hey, just so you know it’s not just the time period he wrote it and the fact that he’s German. It’s not just that they have connotations. He did literally do some disgusting things.
@@theaveragecomment1014 It's not just that, it's also that it was a redundant diagnosis that didn't describe anything different from autism.
@@robokill387 Yeah that as well
I'm a trans guy and, as far as I'm aware, do not have autism.
Edit: when you mentioned Percy Jackson and I swear to god my ears perked up 🤣 I remember when those movies were super popular and I would come across people who only knew of dyslexia because of them lmao
People would be like, ohhh, so you can read ancient Greek? Just not English?🤦♂️
Howany Percy Jackson movies where there? I only know of lightning thief
@@LowlyEidolon there were movies made based on the first two books however loosely they may have been.
Also!! To add to the convo around 44:16 I once saw a post somewhere talki g about while mental health was terribly taken care of in the “olden days” a lot of people wouldn’t be biased or care about autistic/ADHD people existing because they would be things like farm hands just working the fields and such and I believe a paraphrased quote from the post was “oh him? That’s Jeff, he doesn’t talk much and is a little odd, but he can pick 80 beans a minute and is great at checkers”
This ramble is mainly to contribute to the fact that a lot of autism symptoms are negative effects of modern society (meltdowns, sensory overload, burnout, etc.) so back in the day when those things weren’t really present, not only did people not think to diagnose people, there wasn’t really a need to.
Obviously there was still a ton of horrible things being done and that wasn’t always the case, but in little pockets of the world people just worked along side each other with differences.
Yep. Many were “just quirky” back in the day. I’m sure that if my dad was born now, he would’ve been diagnosed with ASD.
This is fascinating, and really got my brain going. Thank you for sharing!!
Think generally, if you’re neurodivergent, even if it’s not autism, you’re likely to not fit in and often feel different from others of your biological sex. They expect you to be how everyone else is but you’re just not, and so it puts so distance between you and your biological sex. I think anyone who is “different” could probably relate to this.
I am autistic. When I was 15 I had gender dysphoria for about 6 months where I presumed I would be better off being male because I did not fit in with my female peers in any way. All of the people I looked up to were also male. Being in my 40s now I had no idea what being transgender was back then, although I knew some men felt they were 'born in the wrong body' but hadn't seen any example of afab people seeking to be male. So I just worked through it myself & came to the conclusion that I was just weird & I fancied boys anyway so it would all work out.
I didn't discover I was autistic until I was 40 & it was a revelation. I think my dysphoria was definitely just down to my autism & that I didn't fit in with my female peers because they weren't autistic.
Just as an aside, the majority of autistics prefer identity first language - we don't have autism, we are autistic. Much like transgender people don't have transgender ;)
I'd love for you all the revisit this subject with an autistic panelist - although Noah might well be AudHD (plus is just lovely to have on any panel) having someone who is connected to the autistic community would be useful.
I am likely autistic but haven’t yet been diagnosed. I have a cousin who is autistic and there is definitely neurodiversity in my family. I was tomboyish as a kid, but never thought I was a boy. When I started menstruating and developed breasts, I was a bit annoyed but there wasn’t the more serious trauma of gender dysphoria from my periods every month. I’ve given my own gender a lot of thought and concluded that I’m a cis woman whose gender expression isn’t very “girly” usually. Gender identity and gender expression are two separate things.
I'm a cis woman with ADHD and autistic traits (sensory issues). I was a tomboy as a child, and in my teens I did my best to look feminine and tried to act more feminine, but I did wonder if I was some kind of intersex man (didn't know about transgender people) because I didn't feel like the other girls/women around me (I didn't get my diagnosis until 32). I also had a lot of internalized misogyny. Spending the year after high school in a different country where girls and women act a lot more "masculine" compared to what I was used to made me realize that there are a lot of ways of being a woman.
I'm a trans autistic man and when I got my top surgery after using binders for 10 years I missed the feeling of the binder protecting my nipples from the temperature with compression. Talking about and treating this sensory issue in therapy makes me accept the fact that I prefer to keep using a binder when it's cold outside in my totally flat chest.
I'm hopeful that like sexuality and gender identity, neurodiversities will eventually be seen as normal variations rather than diagnosable conditions.
I think the genetics of all of this is interesting. I have a lot of genes associated with my various diagnoses (AuDHD included).
Yes, to gender defiance in autistic people! lol I think feeling agender/slightly more like a man (and being bisexual, homo-romantic) certainly affected my social interactions and I have always been fine with the body I have as a female.
I find the comment about nuanced thinking to be weird… have they actually talked with autistic women? I know you said they did, but my experience is that I’ve run into a lot of autistic women who see the world in a very nuanced way (yes, some are quite black and white-not my experience). One of the reasons I find that particular comment interesting is that I find so many neurotypical people to be shallow thinkers without much nuance.
I'm autistic and trans masc. My autism diagnosis was in my early 30ies (typical for afab people, especially in Germany). The idea of my "autistic identity" and "trans identity" being like a rope, looking like one single thing from afar, absolutely speaks to me. I wasn't able to properly say how I felt regarding my gender identity until I had autism therapy before. I always knew, something was off and being a "girl/woman" wasn't me. But I really had to untangle the autism from the trans identity and it took me 1,5 years of therapy with 2 specialists - one for autism, one gender psychiatrist.
At first I was scared that this episode might fall into the category of "autism simply means you can't grasp the idea of gender how you should". I'm really glad it didn't and wanted to thank you guys for what you do.
Keep up the nice work!
Hey, this is a bit random, but would you, like, be able to elaborate what you mean with „especially in Germany“?
I’m currently researching my options for a diagnosis because I suspect that I’m autistic, and although I’ve definitely heard of the fact that afab people often don’t get their diagnosis until they’re older, I’m not quite sure what you mean with „especially in Germany“.
(Apologies for the long sentence, I didn’t know how to express it differently. 😅)
Edit: The sentence isn’t actually that long, is it? 😂 What was I thinking.
@@chaotic.dragon In my childhood all my autistic behaviours and needs have been dismissed as "shy", "being a bookworm" and simply behaving like a "too sensitive little girl" (by parents and teachers). When boys got a diagnosis for being "obviously different" I was simply silenced and punished, because that's what "difficult" girls got instead. Yay, growing up in the 80ies! (I know there are great parents, too, but I know very many stories similar to mine, so... yeah.) Puberty was hell for me so I developed a deep depression, but my first therapist broke it down to "it's typical for girls to be so dependant. You should move out and cut ties with your parents. That'll help." That may have been not the best advice, considering the fact, that my depression was real, but not everything that was going on. It would take an essay to explain in detail, but there is some sexism going on regarding diagnosis for women/girls/afab, starting with misdiagnosis (usually what therapists 'typically' find in women/girls the same age) up to the point, where women in Germany still face the idea, that they are more often "faking", "seeking attention", etc. (whereas men are more often taken seriously, because, when men see a doctor, it has to be serious, right?)
There are some studies showing, that autism in women may be very different from the "textbook", which was mostly based on observations on young men. On top of that is my personal experience, that doctors in general tend to not believe a womans "selfdiagnosis" as much as a mans. Especially, when they don't know about the differences in gender. As if they are still believing "there is no autism in women/girls" or at least they may know better now, but still somehow go back to old patterns?
Does this somehow make sense and help?
I could also answer in German, if you think, that could help, but I wanted this comment to be available to more people, so I decided to show off my bad, bad language skills - again XD
I haven't even watched the video yet but I'm excited! I'm transmasc nb with autism/adhd (diagnosed about a year ago in my early 20s). My current therapist was the one who suggested that I might have autism, and he said that a noticeable amount of his trans(particularly masc)/nb patients are either autistic or otherwise neurodiverse. I think a current theory is that the "different wiring" in neurodiverse brains changes their relationship gender and sexuality from neurotypicals
I am definitely neuro diverse - diagnosed adhd and not diagnosed but probably on the spectrum. I think we grow up feeling so different that we don’t relate to others such as groups of girls or boys. I don’t have dysphoria - but I definitely don’t identify with any gender.
I just started watching but I already love how me and Noah were both diagnosed with ADHD at around the same time and now we are both wondering if we are autistic at around the same time as well.
Coming in raw, without watching further yet, I realised I am more comfortable identifying as non-binary quite recently as well and that definitely is related to me understanding my neurodivergency. It is not so much about not being able to fit into social norms, but about not understanding them at all. I always managed to fit into these norms when I needed to, but I always assumed everyone around me struggled as much to play this part as I do. Once I found out that is not the case, and that for most people these things come easily, then I realised how much effort I had to put into performing femininity and how apparently that comes easy to cis women at least...? (and probably for a lot of trans women as well)
To me it always felt like my whole life was a long improv theater spiel, and at some point I was even continuing the act while I was alone, imitating the women I saw in movie scenes having tea in their underwear because apparently that is what woman do ahahah
As an autistic agender female (who “feels” more like a man) with ADHD who identifies as a woman and a lesbian, and who has been a life-long feminist, I fully relate to what you said here. I just didn’t get it and I had trouble performing, which angered far too many people. People never truly seemed to understand why they found me different. However, when I was no longer attached to a man, men and women who got to know me would remark on how much like a man I was despite my femme appearance. (I never revealed before or after that I felt that way). It’s not a strong feeling and the feeling is more based on what society has told us what men are. So these people seem to be responding to that as well.
I feel the same. I had to hide a lot of myself in middle school to avoid bullies, and I hid my ADHD as well as gender non-conforming aspects. I became insecure that I wasn't like other girls and couldn't fit in with them, or even fit in a lot of women's clothes (I have naturally wide shoulders and Old Navy's women's flannel shirts are not wide enough for me, and a lot of skinny jeans that were in at the time were too baggy in the hips, but too tight in the knees for some reason). Now I like the things I was insecure about, like singing tenor or lower alto harmonies, having a less feminine body shape, and focusing more on comfort than fashion.
First time ever getting recommended a sci guys episode and it just so happened to show up 2 days after my official autism diagnosis haha 🎉🎉🎉 thanks for being (incidentally) timely with this.
I’m a non-binary nuerodivergent person who identifies with a lot of gender labels. I do get bouts of both social and physical dysphoria quite often, so it’s interesting looking at the link between my nuerodivergency identity and gender. Thanks sci guys!
That's a whole lot of words to say a whole bunch of nothing.
@@idcyco3623 If you're having trouble comprehending this comment, I'd stay out of these sorts of conversations until you have a better grasp on the subjects
@@justsometatzelwurm There is no trouble on my end. I could have several degrees in psychology and you'd never know the wiser. There will never be enough "research " conducted on my end. And all you'll ever do is insist that I go research further.
You don't know where I've been, what I've done, or how I've done it. I suggest you check out Tranquility Bay.
@@idcyco3623 But DO you have several degrees in psychology? I'd wager on the side of 'no,' considering I've seen your other comment. That is unless you got those degrees ages ago, when it was commonplace to put people in inhumane asylums or prisons for having the slightest difference in mental health or neurotype.
However, there are still awful psychologists who treat mentally ill and neurodiverse people very poorly and lack understanding of even fairly common disorders. Though, considering _how_ little you know about autism, and the fact that you didn't just say you _do_ have several degrees in psychology (or even one), I'd guess that not even that is accurate.
We're continuing to learn more and more about psychology each day. Listen to autistic people, and please... join us in the modern era
Edit: As for Tranquility Bay, you're either referring to a beach resort, or a facility in Jamaica that "operated from 1997 to 2009 and received notoriety for its harsh and often abusive treatment of its students, eventually shutting down in 2009 after allegations of child abuse came to light through lawsuits and highly publicized student testimonies." I'm going to assume you mean the latter, though I don't see what you're getting at or how that would strengthen your argument if that were your intent.
Especially since the director "was Jay Kay, a college dropout with no training in child development...and who is son of WWASPS president Ken Kay," and "Kay (who at the time was not working for WWASPS) said Tranquility Bay staff were 'untrained,' without 'credentials of any kind,' and that Tranquility Bay 'could be leading these kids to long-term problems that we don't have a clue about because we're not going about it in the proper way,'" and "As with other WWASPS facilities, Tranquility Bay has been the subject of much controversy, including allegations of torture, unsanitary living conditions, unqualified employees, and denial of medical care."
Unless that's not what you're talking about at all.
@@justsometatzelwurm Do you see me diagnosing myself or anyone else for that matter? This is where hypocrisy seems to flow freely for one group of people but anyone else isn't qualified and just doesn't understand.
No I don't have several degrees, yes I was placed at facilities such as Tranquility Bay. I have a very Hands-On experience with this industry and spent my formative years being shrinked and reshrinked. How much you want to wager I picked up subconsciously on a variety of psychiatric tactics and methods just by being there?
I'm not autistic, but I do have ADHD and I'm transmasculine. When you started discussing how gender dysphoria can be linked to how people grow up because of their neurodivergency and how those around them treat them it resonated with me. As a kid I felt like I would've fitted in better with the boys for friends because I was loud and rambunctious like they were. I wanted to be like them so I could express myself without much judgement and be who I really was, and also so I could be accepted more by my peers because my impulsivity wouldn't be seen as that weird.
Sorry you felt like that. Your surroundings teaching you girls can't be impulsive and loud is very regressive. So sorry that people change themselves instead of standing up for the diversity in their own sex.
I’ve learned more from y’all’s podcast than I have ten years of science classes at my public school 😭😭
It’s fascinating to see all my Comorbidities come together in less of a ven-diagram and more like those infinite circles people make out of paper lol. Never thought I would be adding dysphoria into the mix but it def makes sense to my brain
I just got my late autism diagnosis at 26, a couple of weeks ago.
UA-cam recommended this to me. I’ll have to checkout the episode specifically on autism, I like hearing peoples takes. Especially when it seems like they’re being discussed in a genuine way.
Edit: I was so relieved to have the diagnosis. I’ve been happier since finally being validated. If the assessor had spent over 3 hours with me and said I wasn’t; I’d be left thinking “I’m a failed neurotypical person.” I was scared I’d have to go through the process again, because things still wouldn’t have made sense. The assessor mentioned I completely relaxed when she gave me the diagnosis at the end of it.
I have first degree relatives on the spectrum and while I do have an ADHD and a Bipolar diagnosis, I'm just shy of an ASD one.
Basically I'm autistic enough for it to cause issues for me, but not autistic enough to get it on paper. 🤷
I'm also agender. I don't really consider my own gender even a bit and I get annoyed when people make a big deal out of it. I will happily respond to any pronoun. I'm not a gender, I'm just me. I don't understand why people make it such a big deal.
I don't have dysphoria. I do dislike my breasts, but that is from practical issues, not gender one. They are big and get in the way. They are also heavy and I hate wearing a bra for sensory reasons, but I still have to. This is annoying.
I'm also asexual and panromantic. I don't care about my gender and I don't care about yours.
Not sure how or if these are related.
I've gone through times where I'm coming infused about my gender and eventually I came to the conclusion of :”I will be judged no matter what I do so it doesn't really matter what I am as long as I'm happy.” and now I just kind of do my own thing and don't really think about my gender anymore
I’m not of the cupcake variety but I didn’t see a comment with one in it so I just wanted to represent a community that is clearly in the minority and make them feel seen and heard as a human being, regardless of the differences in our opinion. Because, you know, that’s the kind of empathy we should extend to all people; like trans & autistic people. Have a hateful day terfs 👋🏻
Wait I saw another comment about cupcakes, what does that mean?
@@supystatro8125 he says at the end of the video, something to the effect of, if you’re a transphobe you can only stay in the comments if it includes the word cupcake (so he knows you at least got the education of the video before spewing hate). I wanted them to think we were on the same page so they would read my comment and understand it’s no one out here protecting hate, and if they are F*ck em
@@bvec97 Oh I see, nice!
@@bvec97 Oh I see, nice!
As someone who is autistic and transmasc i always suspected the reason a lot of people are both autistic and trans is because we dont usually innately understand social norms, including the gender associations.
This is my new favourite channel.
So delightful.
Thank you.
i was recently officially diagnosed as autistic and my paediatrician told me a few times that around half of his patients weren't cis which i thought was cool,, he explained the link between autism and dysphoria to my parents actually!!
im autistic and i have gender dysphoria, but n ot only for myself but for the whole human race. To me people being male or female is no diffrence to then being blonde or brunette and it shouldnt have any other meaning attached to it. you can prefer brunettes over blondes but it should make any diffrence for legal things or for personality requirements
that being said, of course i recognise this is just my feelings, and that other people ahve other feelings and i accept those just as i want people to accept mine
This is often called being gender abolitionist (just for the sake of knowledge !)
1:14:38 Yes! My child was first diagnosed with SPD back in 2007. There were things that I assumed had to do with sensory issues but now in hindsight were either the beginnings of gender dysphoria or both gender dysphoria and sensory issues. They came out as trans in 2016.
i’m a cis(ish??) bisexual woman but use she/they pronouns, i’m happy in being percieved as a woman, i’m a super femme little girlie girlie and super secure in she/her pronounsbut the little happy feeling when someone use they/them occasionally for me? Thats the cis(ish) kicking in - i wouldn’t describe myself as NB or anything like that just seeing gender on a spectrum and being close to the female side but not QUITE right at the end! Being friends with a lot of trans, queer and gender diverse people really helped me figure that out just as in it helped me open my mind and gave space to try she/they and figure out it REALLY worked for me! So no gender dsyphoria here just gender euphoria🤍 I have ADHD and ?autistic traits? but just dont know if i am autistic or not and honestly it doesnt bother me if i have a diagnosis or a label for it because it wouldn’t change my reality, i’d still be me and have the same life if that makes sense! I’ve noticed a lot of the queer community are neurodiverse and that we tend to be more accepting of people with differences in our community maybe meaning more people feel comfortable to question if they are or arent also neurodiverse🤍
1:17:05 FYI, if you give trans women estrogen, they’ll likely grow breasts without top surgery. Some trans women who transition later in life or don’t have any/enough body fat, maybe won’t have the size they’d like and might get top surgery. Most trans women I know haven’t had top surgery. Estrogen is enough.
My trying to gain body fat the last few months...
very very interesting- i’m in the process of getting an autism diagnosis and although i identify as a cis women, my eating disorder stemmed almost entirely from not wanting to get/keep my period and to stop my body looking womanly
Hm, it does sound a lot like gender dysphoria 😰 do you think it's possible to have gender dysphoria and being cis? I'm genuinely curious, I didn't consider it could be possible
@@mele7410 It is definitely possible, actually very common trough teenage years because of all the changes happening in your body and all that it entails socially (being/feeling sexualised, boxed into social norms, etc. Even for simply not being a kid anymore, specially if you didn't get to "be a kid" before because of trauma, excessive responsibilities, ab*use, etc.) The possibilities are endless. It would fall into the category of "adaptation disorder".
@@mele7410 In short, you do need gender dysphoria to be (considered/diagnosed?) trans, but you don't need to be trans to have gender dysphoria.
I am autistic and agender. I notice there is also a lot of overlap of other neurodiversities, lgbt community and chronic illness. I have ME also.
As someone who hasn’t really had experience in these issues it’s very interesting to learn more about them! Thanks for this one!!
I didn't start admitting i was not cis, even to myself, until i was in my 30s. And that self discovery was triggered by a combination of things like Drag Race pushing the idea of gender nonconformity in my face, and a traumatic relationship undermining my previous idea of who I was. Even after that it's taken me 5 years to work my way through to accepting I am a binary trans woman. If society had continued forcing transness and gender nonconformity into the underground and taboo, when they were allowed to exist at all, and if I hadn't had a serious shake up in my life that forced me to actually take a look at myself. I can totally believed that I could have gone decades longer, maybe even my whole life, not accepting my transness. Definitely not living it out in the open. Because my brain was built in such a way that its able to ignore and burry things it doesn't like very easily. But I can totally see that for some people with ASD that kind of self deception is less likely or even less possible.
So given two populations of people, one "neurotypical"*, one ASD, both with the same occurrence of Transgender individuals. The latter would potentially display a higher visible population of transgender individuals at a younger age, just because a greater percentage of the trans people in the latter group were just not visible.
*tangent time! I put "neurotypical" in quotes because I am far from neurotypical. In Fact I believe one of the reasons I was able to hide my transness from myself so thourily was because I have a dissociative identity disorder. So dissociating and separating my consciousness from uncomfortable thoughts and feelings is what my brain does by default. I also have dyslexia, and seem likely have ADHD to, although not diagnosed yet. But the term neurotypical is so often used in the context of autism alone that its almost come to just mean "not autistic"
Maybe allistic is a better word to use here than neurotypical
Yeah I didn't know much and even less that was helpful about trans people before I was about thirty.
And I had no framework for conceptualising me being trans, and then when I knew more I was scared to contemplate it cos I was scared of my very anti- parents. But that didn't stop me for long.
I relate to having multiple things and not being able to fully untangle what's going on. I have ADHD, chronic pain, allergies, and trying to figure out if EDS is the cause of it, as it seems to be quite a few people have ADHD, autism, gender dysphoria, orthostatic intolerance, and EDS. Aaron Ansuini has been a great resource for me, as we have a lot of overlapping symptoms and conditions.
I also relate to the struggle with categories especially with the label "disabled" as I do have conditions that make me disabled, but it's in certain contexts mostly. Like my inability to stand for long amounts of time is only an issue if I'm in an area that doesn't have nearby seating options, and my sensitivity to certain stimuli is only an issue where I can't get away from it quickly enough.
I really like this episode and it's a topic I've been thinking about a lot recently. My therapist was going through potential signs of autism with me and one of the things that was listed was identifying as gay, bisexual, trans, asexual, and I think a few other LGBTQ+ labels. It's interesting hearing the scientific theory behind why there is an overlap there
Also I've been trying to come up with my own theories for the overlap and I've realised that in my personal experience I started to consider my sexuality and gender more around the same time I started to think that I could be neurodivergent. I'm not sure which came first but I think as I looked more at myself and how I experience life because of one thing, it made me notice signs of the other. I think I started considering that I might not be cishet and that led to me looking more at how I perceived the world and realising that there were some major differences compared to how neurotypical people perceive the world.
Also I find in my experience that when it comes to a lot of societal constructs I have a kind of "but why?" Attitude like I don't see the necessity for a lot of categories so maybe questioning my sexuality and gender is also affected by that
I love this so much as a enby who might have autism and experiences dysphoria I really relate to many of the points! You all bring different thoughts and opinions to the table! I as a Noah finance fan will be watching all of you guys after this
I've been diagnosed with high-functioning ASD and I started estrogen 17 years ago, after beginning _trying to get care_ 22 years ago. Which, for some perspective, is all the way back when the commonly used label was still transsexual more than transgender.
Honestly I think one of the ways they interacted might have been that I didn't have the intense urge to be "normal" the way a lot of people do. When I realized I had gender dysphoria, that was more important than trying to be normal.
Can I just point out that you have a fabulous username
@@Ratigan2 yes you may thank you
I wonder about neurodivergence in general and its relation to gender identity. Autism, OCD, ADHD. I've noticed people with those diagnoses as well have something going on with their gender identity. Including myself. I am diagnosed with OCD which is definitely accurate but also have a lot of symptoms that can overlap with autism such as sensory issues, anxiety with unfamiliar situations etc. AND I am queer.
Literally!! I got diagnosed with OCD (5 yrs ago) and bipolar (last year) and still felt like something was missing, that it made me feel more scene but something still felt off. Currently looking into getting a full autism diagnosis as the ADHD test was close but my doctor and I agreed that it was something more.
Being investigated for autism, definitely have gender dysphoria, I’ve had it since I started crawling and puberty amplified it.
I’m one of them young “girls” who’s mental problems were overshadowed by both my sibling and being “quiet”
Hi i dont have autism or gender dysphoria and this is my first time listening to this podcast, BUT: What the host says at 19:03 about neurodivergence being inestricable from who one is as a person put words to feelings I have about my ADHD that are hard to describe. Especially since theres no adjective for people with ADHD like ADHDistic or something like that. So I just wanted to say thanks for expressing that so eloquently :)
Hey, I'm autistic! Huzzah! For me, that's like having all of my senses cranked up to eleven so most stimuli are not just overwhelming but actually painful, and also having to do all my thinking manually/consciously whereas neurotypical brains apparently automate a lot of processing to save time... or something? I dunno, sounds like sorcery to me.
I also experience a little bit of dysphoria, in that I was born female but never fit in with the other girls at school. Tried to be in the boys' club but that didn't feel right either. Always thought gender was so arbitrary and ridiculous. My main point of contention has always been the expectation that I should reproduce, and I cannot explain to people how much that horrifies me. I decided to call this phenomenon amaternalism (i.e. just as there are asexual and aromantic people, there can be amaternal people). The desire to breed is just completely absent from me. It wouldn't be such a big deal if society wasn't so darn adamant that I fulfil my role as an incubator and didn't continuously argue about my right to bodily autonomy... Maybe that's not gender dysphoria but reproductive dysphoria?
I just stumbled on your channel a few days ago. This episode popped up in my feed, and all I can say is thank you. I was unofficially diagnosed with Aspergers at 25 (officially at 35). I've also known that my gender didn't fit my assigned gender since I hit puberty. It's ok. The fence I've been sitting on my whole life isn't too uncomfortable.
I'm trans, gay and neurodivergent. Its so great to have found a video on this topic! However, something I've struggled with recently is the pathologisation of autistic spectrum disorders i.e. the implication that something is wrong with you. There's some really great work being done in this field, and I'd point anyone to the work of Nick Walker: a trans autistic person who is campaigning for a more inclusive world for neurodivergent people. Noah touched on the trauma of growing up as neurodivergent and trans in an allist cis world, and I really relate to those experiences of being constantly "corrected" for your "wrong behaviour". Nick Walker talks about neurodivergence as something that should be a protected characeteristic, such as ethnicity or sexual orientation, and I wholeheartedly agree with this. Both trans people and autistic people are marginalised because of their differences and divergence from social norms, and just as there is a long way to go in the fight for trans rights, there is also a long way to go in valuing the rights and needs of neurodivergent people, rather than classifying them as being disordered and expecting them to conform and morph into something they aren't in order to fit into society's expectations of them.
I get that its difficult to find a starting place for discussing such a complicated topic, but I wish that it hadnt been NHS definitions of autism and gender dysphoria, seeing as I dont agree with the NHS's view of autism as a disorder. Yes, autism comes with many challenges, such as with social interaction and sensory processing, but in my view, a lack of empathy is a complete myth (we feel/empathise too much -> we shut down -> from the outside it looks like we don't care), and it would be much less harmful to simply accept autistic people as they are, rather than subjecting them to behavioural therapy to "fix" their "behavioural problems". Furthermore, there are many benefits to being autistic. For me, hyperfocus is one of them (I can get so much work done whilst my colleagues are chatting! 😂)
Fun fact: did you know autistic people often do this thing called scripting? It's where you have pretend conversations with people in your head in order to rehearse for the real thing. Until recently, I had no idea that allists generally don't do that.
Another point from my general experience is that autistic people generally communicate and understand each other much more easily than they do with allistic people, and vice versa. Someone put it to me in terms of computer systems: one group are running windows whilst the others are on apple mac. They communicate easily between themselfes, but not very easily with the other group. The problem is as much about teaching autistic people how to communicate with and understand allistic people, as it is about teaching allistic people how to communicate with and understand autistic people.
Bit of a rambing message. I just wanted to share my views. Thanks for the video. You guys are awesome.🎉
And yes, for anyone who's interested, check out "Neuroqueer Heresies" by Nick Walker
I think there are going to be valuable knowledge from turning the "why are people..." questions around. Like why are people cisgendered is a legit question and now that I've asked it, I want an answer!
I have a theory about that idea, though I'm not sure how accurate. It comes from a lot of studies we did in my college sociology class. We would look at how people react in situations where breaking the norm is also the right thing to do. Sort of like a "what would you do" situation. The general consensus is that most people conform regardless of what's right, for fear of rejection and whatnot. Considering the fact that the concept of gender is made up and used to categorize the sexes into more clearly defined roles, it can be viewed as a very prevalent social norm, imposed upon us from birth. I think that, even though many people deviate from the behavior that's expected of them, most people feel that the effort it would take to identify as something else isn't worth the disruption it would cause in their lives. That's probably why so many people feel perfectly happy to just live as a "masculine" girl or a "feminine" guy. Maybe trans people are a rare result of a cross section between traits that allow people to step far outside the norm and traits that make them feel like such drastic deviation is necessary. In my eyes, it's just a very extreme, institutionalized version of one of those social experiments. Most people feel that they're comfortable enough where they were placed, and don't feel the need to break norms. That's just my personal theory, though.
Because every animal species is wired for self preservation via reproduction.
It just so happens that humans have freedom where other animals only have instinct, and can understand that being different doesn't equate just being left to die in the jungle.
Because gender is a social construct and people changing their bodies to fit the societal norms for the opposite sex, instead of changing their regressive surroundings, ask ridiculous questions convinced that they're on to something.
@@kuuderepanda4207So you say that the concept of gender is made up, but we should be brave and change our bodies to fit the expectations of the other sex? I really can't see the bravery. People crushing norms is what leads to changes all over the world, all over history. By your logic it would be better for women to take testosterone and dress like men so they could vote, instead of the very boring act of rebellion and changing laws.
Loved this episode!! I'm neurodivergent and trans queer. I experience indeed a lot of gender dysphoria and really liked your critical discussion on the connection.
I would agree with some of the others that maybe the relationship between neurodivergency and being transgender and/or gender dysphoria is that if you realize one of it (either neurodivergency or gender dysphoria) you will start doing way more self-discovery and working on yourself so that you actually figure out certain "symptoms". I feel like a lot of people who have it "easier" in life or are just happy as they are from the beginning on, they will never start thinking about specific causes. But as soon as hop out of the norm of society and realize I'm not fitting into the typical categories, you start questioning a lot of things and are more self-aware of different things you do. Hope this makes sense 😅🙈
as someone who is both autistic and trans, and someone with friends who also are both, I think we question it more because thing really have to make sense for us to believe it and conform to it. so when I always got the answer "that's just how it is", I couldn't accept that. In my experience, neurotypical people, more specifically allistic people, can accept things without knowing why it is that way. I will never do something if I don't understand why I'm doing it
I just recently got diagnosed with autism, I've been out as trans since I was 14
You bring up an interesting point about there being possible benefits to different neuroatypical conditions, because that's how I've come to understand my own neurodivergence. I think there are likewise potential benefits to being trans, which is going to sound downright radical given how frequently it's pathologized, and the overemphasis society places on the hardships, challenges, and drawbacks. Being trans exposes you to a wider breadth of life experiences, and makes you examine your life much more closely than the average person does. It can make you more empathetic to others, like people from other marginalized groups who face prejudice for being different. It forces you to think and operate outside the normal boundaries set by society, which can make you better at problem solving. Trans people are overrepresented in the scientific, computing, and creative fields, and the trans people I know are all incredibly smart and insightful. Being trans also allows you to redefine yourself and your place in the world, which puts you at the forefront of affecting social change.
Just as we need to move away from defining transness solely by dysphoria and instead focus more on euphoria, I think there needs to be more discussion on the positive aspects of being trans. It's not a choice, but it's not something that needs to be solely framed as a burden either.
If there wasn't positive aspects to it, nobody would transition or identify with the label xp
@@foxbox2879 Of course, but I have noticed that even among certain parts of the trans community there's an internalized narrative that the trans experience is defined by the hardships and that transitioning is an ordeal. This has led to some members gatekeeping trans identities, saying that you can't be trans unless you've suffered enough. This kind of narrative then gets taken up by supposed "allies" who think trans people need to be pitied, and that it's some kind of disorder that needs to be cured. I would counter that notion and say that being trans isn't the problem, it's the solution. If that's who you truly are and have been all along, then discovering yourself is the first step to the rest of your life.
@@FrozEnbyWolf150 I agree 💯.
Also I'm trans xp
I have both of them and it can be hard to live this way at times
Im genderfluid and i really feel i have autism but it always gets blown off as "just anxiety" . Its really nice to hear this
There was some really interesting science in this episode right up to, and immediately following, the phrase "man soul."
I am autistic and non-binary and have experienced gender dysphoria (and euphoria) in the past. But similarly to another commenter, I don't feel much dysphoria except in public spaces.
I'm autistic and trans and I think a big reason why a lot of autistic people are trans is that TYPICALLY autistic people find understanding social concepts and rules very hard and as gender is a social construct I personally find it very hard to understand where I fit bc I dont really understand what it is
at 31:41 Yes, we are ready for a new model of the human experience. Being complex is the beauty of a brilliant person. Being curious about that is why I'm engaged in this conversation.
I'm trans and I've suspected I may have autism for a few years now. Supposed to have a proper diagnostic test soon and I've been waiting for soooo long. The wait list to get the test is ridiculous for adults because doctors primarily only see adolescents when it comes to things like autism and ADHD.
i'm autistic and i used to experience a lot of gender dysphoria before top surgery, so... collect em all!
The normal vs non-normal conversation is so important! Thanks for bringing it up guys!
This year has been a wild ride. I discovered I was Autistic back in February and came out as Genderfluid in June. Both because of the weird accuracy of the recommended videos on UA-cam. Thanks algorithm, anything else I need to know?
Same this year I’ve discovered I’m most likely autistic and have adhd, as well as realizing I’m trans lol. I have a therapist appointment in only two weeks to get all this checked out.
its crazy because literally the last year or so i have been thinking i have autism, nothing related to this, completely separate. but my friend (who is diagnosed and also trans) said i should definitely talk to my therapist about that. the same feelings that noah described as dysphoria i feel the opposite with euphoria. i dont necessarily experience dysphoria, however the euphoria is so strong that it is definitely enough to make me feel confident and expressive
Wonderful discussion🖖
Im so glad people are talking in depth about this! I have autism and im ftm, for the longest time i just never made the mental connection that being called a “girl” was something that meant much. As i entered virtual learning i had time to explore how that made me feel!
About the cause thing, with neurodivergence and gender, some people think it's just a natural variation of brain patterns. And with things that have multiple traits to diagnose something, what if someone has part of it but not the other? Like if someone who only has the sensory processing differences like autism, they'd generally be seen as neurotypical, even though there is a difference there. Or people might say they feel "a little bit autistic" which isn't a thing because we have made it to be a binary of you're neurotypical or neurodivergent, with pretty hard lines, and it doesn't always work. For example, there's a debate about whether or not learning disabilities count, and if things like dyslexia and dyscalculia are neurodivergence or learning disabilities. I just know they run in my family.
I do have gender dysphoria. I know I'm adhd, and I'm currently in the early stages of the process of getting an autism diagnosis, though myself and my therapist highly suspect it.
unrelated to the video,
but omg these 4 people are so unbelievably pretty👀
When i was growing up i knew nothing about trans etc. Im older😜. I still went through life being different if everyone isnt different. I went through a period of time where I thought I'd be better as a boy and eventually settled into a neutral ? I hope it makes me a better nurse/friend. I glad you guys are around and vocal.
that little stag tattoo is amazing 😂
Answer about neurosurgeons is that surgeons same as medical doctors are in a different field to biologists who are researchers I think? The people in them blurs massively as many doctors need to pursue research as well but the study of biology is different to medicine which is the application of that biology.
I'm autistic and genderqueer; I have gender dysphoria about some things, and see myself as androgynous, but honestly the "what's your gender?" question's A Bit Much (I also potentially/probably have ADHD, too). What really interests me is that, when I was first diagnosed about ten years ago, I immediately went and read "Aspergirls" by Rudy Simone/Artemisia, and the whole chapter on Gender and Identity pretty much states that being genderqueer is just normal for "autistic women"? "Women and Girls with Autism Spectrum Disorder" by Sarah Hendrickz also does this. A lot of the people interviewed for those books are grouping themselves in with autistic women (the latter book includes autistic trans women, too!), but are saying "I identify as half-male, half-female" or "I'm completely genderless", or "I know I'm female on the outside, but internally I'm male", stuff like that. And my response to that was that it explained SO MUCH, because I was already seeing myself as being internally androgynous! I'd say then that 2-4% of autistic people being trans is kind of low-balling the numbers a bit, because a lot of autistic women are being told that their gender diverse identities are just a normal part of being an autistic woman.
I also think that the bit about "concrete thinking" actually helps with my being genderqueer, because if I don't have all the information, or the information doesn't make sense when put together, then the only concrete way of understanding it is to take a third option. After years of trying to figure out what my gender "actually" was, and really trying to work through it, the conclusion of "I do not know, and I cannot know" is the most appropriate, and it's the option that actually put a lot of painful uncertainty to bed. It's why the label I really like is "Gendervague", which is when gender is difficult/impossible to parse due to neurodiversity - it's a measure to put that confusion down.
Lastly - part of my dysphoria is fuelled by my sensory issues, in that BRAS ARE HELL. THEY'RE HELL! CAN'T WEAR THEM! Binders can get sweaty, which I dislike, but bras almost always cause me great pain, even when it "fits correctly".
This is great. Thank you.
Thanks for covering this topic, it's so interesting and I wish there was more research on it that transphobes and ableists understood better. Something this topic always reminds me of is when i was looking at the parliamentary debate in the UK about whether they should recognise nonbinary as another gender option and one of the oppositions to this was this ableist and transphobic argument about how it is vulnerable autistic children who are thinking that they're trans. It just seems so ridiculous to me that this kind of misinformation can be used in this way. Makes me want to send your podcast episode to various members of parliament.
Thanks so much for a good episode :))
I warmly recommend a great read Trans And Autistic by Liang and Adams. Extremely eye opening!
Hey!! Can u guys do an episode on bats or more specifically Vampire bats, I think that would be a pretty cool episode :)
to the adhd and beneficial discussion: most people with adhd are good in a crisis. When most neurotypical loses the mind or go paraplyzed in crisis most people with adhd are good iand surprisingly calm in crisis.
This is certainly my experience and I was known at various job as the person who kept my calm while others were losing theirs.
a video just for me? wowie how exciting🤠🤠
If there’s a ~4% increase of trans identities in autistic children, isn’t it also possible that those children are just more likely to express their gender dysphoria because autistic people tend to be more honest without thinking about consequences?
hopping in the comments, as instructed, when instructed, prior to watching most of the video. definitely yes to having dysphoria, first recognized as gender euphoria. maybe also autistic, but i mask a tonne so it's hard to be sure without a diagnosis which i'm unlikely to seek without major changes to the social and medical implications.
Not me freaking out when they started talking about Percy Jackson 😅
OMG SAAAAAME
I WAS LIKE OMG NOAH HAS THE SAME BIRTHDAYYYYYYYT AHHHHH
I feel kind of called out as being autistic and in the midst of a thorough research about "am I transgender" with a hypothesis followed by detailed analysis and weighing of different options.
This episode's great, thank you.
Also: an addition while watching this for the second time
[This will be a personal ramble but perhaps useful to some other person, too.]
Sooo perhaps I, as an autistic individual, am basically more likely to come to a conclusion that I'm trans *and* do something about it because what drives me is my own values and inner motivation, not conforming to society and adhering to its rules? (I mean I do have the habit of thinking black-and-white, but in a way of adhering to nuance and my own rules instead of categories and others' rules). So I primarily listen to my inner self and personal needs instead of being driven by being accepted and fitting in social/collective circles. Which, in turn, is probably partly learned behaviour since I'm so used to not fitting in that I don't really have motivation to even try.
But! There's a catch! Because fitting in isn't my primary motivation in the first place, it's relatively easy for me to let it loose and throw myself into the unknown. Transitioning doesn't scare me, because I don't have much to lose since I don't generally get a place in social circles anyway (I do have some friends that I know to accept me though). Even if I wouldn't have credibility or respectability in many people's eyes after transition, there's the chance that... I would have a place. In my own eyes and some others', too. More than I do now. And that chance, in the end, is worth taking.
im a greedy greedy boy indeed
but yea im glad someone talked about this topic!!! i find it really interesting that they can be related