This is brilliant! I am currently writing a space opera. Andrew Wizard and Niko sent me to your channel and discord. I was getting ready to ask pretty much this exact question. Timing was perfect 😁
The Lensman series lets you know right off the bat that it's going to swing for the fences: "Two thousand million or so years ago two galaxies were colliding; or, rather, were passing through each other." And it carries through, too; there's a reason there's a trope called "Lensman Arms Race", and it involves planetary masses being thrown around at multiples of lightspeed.
Lensman is the epitome of space opera. It has flaws, mostly from archaic language or misunderstandings, that you can chalk down to the time it was written. Then just go on and enjoy the ride. There are many interesting ideas and it’s fascinating to see his pre-bomb imaginings of nuclear weapons and antimatter.
I absolutely adore this series, but my advice, for what it's worth, is to skip Triplanetary and First Lensman - and _definitely_ skip Masters of the Vortex! Start with Galactic Patrol, and finish with Children of the Lens. I've read that sequence of four novels four times, and it never gets old. Sheer pulp, but marvellous! (See the section "Publication history" in the Wikipedia page for "Lensman series". It helps to explain my advice.)
I think the Ender Saga has the most interesting form of faster-than-light travel and communication that I have ever encountered. The concept of ansibles is so original and ingenious. By the way, I LOVE opera!
I like a sense of deep time-- the story doesn't need to take place over a long period, but I want millions of years behind the story. Have you read Olaf Stapledon? His _First and Last Men_ and _Star Maker_ are epic histories of life, with a stunning variety of sf ideas.
I used wormholes but with a new spin. I used quantum foam, subatomic wormholes that open and close all around that no one notices, and they’re expandable with gravity devices. Theses devices also propel the ships by providing gravity wells to dive in. These wormholes, smaller versions, also gives FTL communications from ship to ship. First contact space opera.
I think that the Honor Harrington series by David Weber meets a lot of these points. It has a unique method of space travel (two actually when you include wormholes) as well as great characters, interesting technology, and well written battles.
@@WordsinTime the later books run into the 'throw more missiles at the problem' to scale the battles up to anime levels. The battles in the earlier books are more character-sized.
In the beginning yes, the battles are well written. But somewhere in tha way, they devolved into "who hasthe shinniest new toy?", plus the plot armor is so tick sometimesit's embarassing. And, of course, HH is probably one ofthe worst Mery Sues in the entire SF scenario these days.
Great video. I wasn't sure if Hyperion was considered a space opera or not. It's such a great series. I need to find more like it. Thanks again for suggesting it. I'm working on Childhood's End right now. It's a really good book.
Thanks Dale! I’m not sure there really is anything like Hyperion. The Sun Eater series has some Dune and Hyperion influences. I’m glad you’re enjoying Childhood’s End!
By the way, I think a book like A Fire Upon the Deep definitely deserves a mention in the context of what space opera does best. As does Iain Banks, if course. But let me also take the opportunity to plug Ken Macleod's Engines Of Light trilogy. It plays some rather nifty twists on some genre tropes, while stille having some good ideas and great and rather original world building.
I haven't read many of the newer examples but Peter F. Hamilton's Night's Dawn Trilogy was the space opera that I loved of the classics that I read (and still love it to this day). The Reality Dysfunction, etc.
GOD I loved Ring and the unique ship. For me in space opera I need mind-blowing ideas, or dabbles deep into physics. Pandoras Star was perfect at this. I loved the Starflier War so much I am legit mad how much I hate the Void Trilogy. I love the expanse so far, but one of the books grinds to a HALT and turns into a "find the criminal" story that reduces the epic scale down to nothing. I hope the next will be better
The Aliance - Union Universe series by C.J. Cherryh and Imperial Radch by Ann Leckie are interesting series that I read over the years. Combined both military action as well as interesting personal and social aspects to the stories.
In my younger years I definitely remember enjoying "The Icarus Hunt" by Timothy Zahn. More recently, I really enjoyed the Ancillary series by Ann Leckie. The former is more of a guilty pleasure that plays out a bit like an action movie combined with a few mystery elements (keeping it vague to avoid spoilers). But I really like it as a standalone novel. The latter really turned some of my perceptions around in terms of character dynamics in-universe. Also in my younger years I remember being blown away by a lot of the concepts in the Eon series by Greg Bear, but I guess a lot of people think the book is dumb. Probably beating a dead horse, but I really loved The Expanse series for so many reasons.
@@WordsinTime I think one of my favorite parts about the Icarus Hunt on my first read is that it just jumps into the action instead of taking the time to introduce characters or have you be bored with some state of normalcy before the inciting incident happens. The story's already happening and you don't know who's who or what the rules are in the universe (especially because it's a standalone novel). But you don't need to be TOLD, you figure out by reading the story. It was the first story I'd read that really did that.
After reading Peter F Hamilton’s Pandora’s Star and Judas Unchained I think my expectation from a good space opera is a vast number of details. I loved how Hamilton doesn’t care about the number of pages and just goes on and on with submerging you into his world.
I love my space opera when it is sprinkled with romance. Not a necessity for me but it's nice to have some. But the biggest factor would be your no.4 point, you gotta go big with your story
Most of what I read is Space Opera but what is considered Space Opera these days is much different from what I think of when I call something Space Opera. I like the definition in The Science Fiction Encyclopedia by Peter Nicholls: Quoting Wilson Tucker from 1941 "The hacky, grinding, stinking, outworn spaceship yarn." I might be the old guy saying get off my lawn but I want my SF to have some fun, exciting space-based character driven adventure.
I really liked the red rising series number 5 was great dark age . Big world to play in . I always liked Arthur C Clarke books especially the RAMA series . I t was so descriptive that I could see it .
I mentioned Arkady Martine in the video. Ann Leckie and Ursula K. Le Guin are also important writers. I own the first Wayfarers book and look forward to reading it soon!
Stop tempting me with more books! Also, I am so bad with subgenres. What, exactly, constitutes space opera, as opposed to something else? I guess this is something I'm drawn to, since I want to read all of these. And I have read (and LOVED) Hyperion. OH, THE TREEEEEEEEEE! * runs to change computer wallpaper *
Good question, I don’t know if there’s a strict definition but I would say any sci-fi book where space travel and adventure is a main focus. And yes, the treeships are awesome!
@@WordsinTime Huh. If that is the definition then i guess space operas is what i'd like, since i love books focused on adventures. And it was what initially drew me to the fantasy genre.
I love space opera. I agree Reynolds is great, yet I'm having the hardest time finding a book that is not so far flung. I want something that is based in reality. 1979s film Alien comes to mind. Not so much alien factor but the ship, it's purpose of mining ore, that with a bit of human drama mixed in. Does anyone have a suggestion? Thanks.
Good question. The only space opera that comes to mind at the moment is The Expanse. It has some sci-fi elements but it’s set in the near future and is relatively grounded and the focus is the people.
Days of Glory by Brian Stableford is a good one. It is more a retelling of a Greek tragedy than a modern style of story but it is very good. I read it getting on 40 years ago.
I read the Hyperion and Endymion series, I love those books I prefer the Hyperion series as it has so much lore that sadly is not explored/or is "retconed" in Endymion, for example the war in the future. I like Endymion but not the same way as Hyperion series. I love it because the book is not written from your classic POV of the Hero, Raul is a side character who just acompanies the Hero and tels his own story and the story of the Hero and I love it. What I don't like about Endymion is how some of the lore is "retconed" from previous books and the extremely long descriptions of T'ien Shan everytime it is mentioned. The worlds are really alive, the technological progress is really shown. I love how Hyperion is shown to really change betwean the books. I also love De Soya, his my favourite Catholic character from that series.
@@WordsinTime What I hate the most is how the future war betwean the Shrike/Shrikes and humanity was "forgotten" , unless Simons decides to continue the story with Petyr (but thats very unlikely), Endymion also ruined the mystery of Shrike for me, I don't really like how he was defeated multiple times by Nemes, but it was still interesting to read.
One thing I really like about Scalzi's Old Mar War stories is that Humanity is the bully/big kid on the block that the rest of the galaxy is forced to organize against. We're not quite the bad guys, but we're definitely not the good guys either.
Another thing you can do is to go the expanse route and go smaller instead of larger. Instead of colonizing an entire galaxy, you colonize a single star system. People underestimate how mind numbingly huge our own solar system is, you also don't just colonize planets you can also colonize moons, asteroids, comets, giant megastructures like oneil cylinders. If you possess magical artifical gravity you can use it on asteroids to give them an atmosphere, allowing you to walk around like on a planet. You can have massive epic space battles reminiscent of wh40k or star wars, and it wouldn't even affect the entire solar system because the human populations could be in the quadrillions. Aliens are just future humans genetically altered or adapted to halfway terraformed worlds, or cyborgs, or ai or posthumans. All this without FTL.
In this video I talked about: Ring by Stephen Baxter Pandora’s Star by Peter F. Hamilton Hyperion by Dan Simmons The Expanse by James S.A. Corey Dune by Frank Herbert Red Rising by Pierce Brown Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky A Memory Called Empire by Arkady Martine Ilium by Dan Simmons
Space Opera needs to have a new idea at the core. Dune had the idea of the dangers of a charismatic figure; Foundation had the idea of predicting and shaping human history. And so on. Also, it should make us Think. Exercise the mind AND point us towards an important real world issue. Using Dune as an example, thebook was one of the first (the first?) to seriously tackle environmental questions. And, of course, it must bring something new to the genre, plus be interesting into itself. One of the major problems I have with much of modern Space Opera (looking at you, Honor Harrington) is that they just take the napoleonic wars and put it in space. Same titles, same societies, same tactics. Hell, half the covers have ships with sails and masts on them.
Battlefield Earth is a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine. It didn't really get into any great concepts, but it had some decent characters, in a pulpy sense, and the story was fun.
Tell me if you think this idea for a space opera is good: Aeons ago, a powerful race of creatures couldn't decide what to do with their criminal underclass. So, they came up with the idea of sending to their criminals to a quiet planet somewhere in a nearby spiral galaxy. They built a fleet of spaceships and designed them to look "retro", similar to vehicles designed thousands of years previously when that race was just learning how to fly in heavier than air vehicles. They took these criminals to the planet, tied them up around a volcano and dropped atomic bombs into the volcano, detonating it and exploding the people into tiny pieces, that somehow seemed to float around. Aeons later that planet would develop life, one species of which eventually became sentient and dominate. The parts of the star criminals latched on to the intelligent life! A brilliant author of the best space opera classics on the planet realised this was happening and created a religion that could remove those parts of the star criminals from the people, eventually freeing those poor people who would then become the best people on that planet, capable of operating on a different level to those not freed this way. Somehow, because the star criminals had remembered their last flight in those spaceships, when the intelligent life developed heavier-than-air flight, one of the most popular designs was known as the "DC10". This plane looked exactly like the ships used to ferry the criminals to that planet. What was the name of this planet? Kepler 62e ... Anyway, enjoyed the video, thanks for making.
definitely agree with point 4, but I find what matters is going big in the story, not just the world. I think that's a reason I'm not a big fan of the Culture books, it's set in this huge universe yet all the books (I have read) seem very confined to a small part of that world. Compare that to Simmons/Reynolds/Corey/Hamilton where often all of humanity is at stake.
Funny, the term Space Opera originally meant a soap opera set in space, a genre og cheap, trivial sci-fi from the 60'es, and the complete opposite of what it means to most people today.
Gets a tiny bit murky and subject to interpretation, what is and what isn't space opera. Into the 2nd half of his career, Robert A Heinlein started to tie his stories and worlds together. He came up with an idea of World as Myth, where a world / alternative universe, becomes 'real' when enough people know it and imagine it and live out some of the lives and awareness in it. So the world of Gulliver's Travels is very much real, and so is Dorothy and Toto and the Wizard of Oz. If enough people read your stories and think and dream in them, they become real. So the fact we are aware of multiple worlds, means it is possible to travel between them. Many of those worlds feature time travel, so in most worlds, time travel is possible. That means you absolutely need a Time Police, to stop the future from messing with the past. That's kinda like the Oval Office, that's where the real power is... Most of this stuff wasn't originally written to be part of this, but late in life, he started to tie it together. So you got some really fascinating characters, like Lazarus Long, (Time Enough for Love, then featured in a dozen or so follow-ups) who may or may not have been his own father...
The Gap series by Stephen Donaldson is the best I have read. It's very adult content though. Very cerebral writing. It has all three of your criteria as well. One of my favourite things about it though is the space travel method. The Gap. Ships must speed up slowly with the crew strapped in. Taking up to a day or so to reach the appropriate speed. Then they hit the button and punch through space. Like instant warp travel. Then they must brake over the same time period on the other side. The thing is though is the distance travelled through the gap fluctuates. But in general the faster you go the further you go. So it makes for some amazing scenarios and space battles judging where ships will exit the gap and when and such. Very entertaining.
There are some terrible space operas out there. EE Doc smith and his Lensman series always bored me. He had a group of super characters with no arc. There was no development ever. They were always great at everything ll the time. I think he'd do well right now as a lot of shows seem to be creating one note heroes or heroines who always are just great. Yawn. Big fan of Webers Harrington series but I'm a military history buff so I would. also enjoyed Elizabeth Moon and her Vatta's war. Also like Lois macmaster Bujold and her Miles Vorkosigan books. Again a lot of military history interspersed in her story. Also read and enjoyed Chris Bunch's Lost Legion series which is a more military nuts and bolts view of Asimov's Foundation series which itself is a retelling of the decline and fall of the roman empire with a person attempting to make sure a great and just society springs up as quickly as possible after the fall of the current galactic empire. Canticle for Leibowitz isn't Space Opera but it has that historical view I like. Ditto for Asimov's foundation series. Lot of asimov and heinlein stuff is informed by their experience of the second world war. I will have to read Leviathan Wakes. Someone here lists CJ Cherryh's books and yeah I like all her series. She has an interesting touch on characters and aliens. I definitely got lost down the Foreigner Rat Hole (21 books to date, take that robert jordan) which is a multi-book series dealing with the first contact problem. The merchanter alliance books are good, as is the Chanur series and the Mri war.
@@WordsinTime Thank you. Just found your takes recently. I am a big old timey science fiction fan and haven't had much luck with more recent sci-fi aside for Iain Banks and now am getting ready to read Hyperion and Leviathan Wakes, so thank you.
@@biffstrong1079 Leviathan Wakes feels modern but I found it to be a fun read. Hyperion is more ambitious and thematic, and might appeal to fans of classic sci-fi.
Honest talk, I find the essay’s theme is undercut by mislabeling the subgenre. Books like Dune, Hyperion, A Memory Called Empire and Red Rising are NOT Space Operas. Dune and Red Rising are Planetary Adventure, while Hyperion is basic Science Fantasy and AMCE is a Science Fiction Mystery. Like Urban Fantasy where the distinguishing characteristic is that it’s set in a city, Space Opera has to have a significant portion set in outer space. It also requires action and adventure, usually on an epic scale. AMCE is a quite good, but it’s primarily focused on one character trying to navigate alien politics while also attempting to solve a murder. I don’t even recall any scenes set in outer space. Red Rising does have a sequence set in space but the vast majority of the book takes place on and under the surface of Mars. There are numerous book series where individual entries are different sci-fi subgenres, such as Bujold’s Vorkosigan saga or the Sten series by Cole and Bunch. One book might be a Space Opera while another is a Prison Break, which gives a feeling that the overall work is Space Opera in the vein of Star Trek, but that “series-as-a-whole” consideration is pretty rare. Murderbot, for instance, visits numerous planets and space stations and travels on a couple different spaceships, but the series never hits any of the common tropes of Space Opera. Ultimately by making the Space Opera definition too broad, you’re basically talking about elements that make any book good.
@@Fabulist I think the disagreement here is that I think space operas can include planets other than Earth whereas you are claiming that they need to be primarily set in outer space. If you look up any of the books I mentioned they will be tagged as space operas, so I think in general the term space opera is used more broadly. But if you want to use a more narrow definition then that’s fine by me.
I just think that there needs to be specific definitions and boundaries for subgenres, otherwise it’s no longer helpful, either for sorting works or giving recommendations. As an analogy, if someone enjoyed Moby Dick, then a good recommendation would be Master & Commander. A bad recommendation would be The Red Badge of Courage. That’s the equivalent of recommending Dune to someone who liked Honor Harrington. They don’t have a congruence of themes, scenes or tropes. Different subgenres.
This is brilliant! I am currently writing a space opera. Andrew Wizard and Niko sent me to your channel and discord. I was getting ready to ask pretty much this exact question. Timing was perfect 😁
That’s awesome, I hope it was helpful. Best of luck with your writing! 🚀
I too am working on a space opera and epic! I hope yours is going well, and I wish you the best of luck in your writing!
The Lensman series lets you know right off the bat that it's going to swing for the fences: "Two thousand million or so years ago two galaxies were colliding; or, rather, were passing through each other." And it carries through, too; there's a reason there's a trope called "Lensman Arms Race", and it involves planetary masses being thrown around at multiples of lightspeed.
That sounds pretty crazy. Love it!
Also, the sun itself is used as a focused beam weapon to destroy an incoming Boskonian fleet, traveling via hypertube.
Lensman is the epitome of space opera. It has flaws, mostly from archaic language or misunderstandings, that you can chalk down to the time it was written. Then just go on and enjoy the ride. There are many interesting ideas and it’s fascinating to see his pre-bomb imaginings of nuclear weapons and antimatter.
I absolutely adore this series, but my advice, for what it's worth, is to skip Triplanetary and First Lensman - and _definitely_ skip Masters of the Vortex! Start with Galactic Patrol, and finish with Children of the Lens. I've read that sequence of four novels four times, and it never gets old. Sheer pulp, but marvellous! (See the section "Publication history" in the Wikipedia page for "Lensman series". It helps to explain my advice.)
I think the Ender Saga has the most interesting form of faster-than-light travel and communication that I have ever encountered. The concept of ansibles is so original and ingenious.
By the way, I LOVE opera!
@@Whalesong7 That’s a good example!
I like a sense of deep time-- the story doesn't need to take place over a long period, but I want millions of years behind the story.
Have you read Olaf Stapledon? His _First and Last Men_ and _Star Maker_ are epic histories of life, with a stunning variety of sf ideas.
That’s cool Nancy! I haven’t read those yet but Stapledon is high on my TBR!
I used wormholes but with a new spin. I used quantum foam, subatomic wormholes that open and close all around that no one notices, and they’re expandable with gravity devices. Theses devices also propel the ships by providing gravity wells to dive in. These wormholes, smaller versions, also gives FTL communications from ship to ship. First contact space opera.
Very cool!
I think that the Honor Harrington series by David Weber meets a lot of these points. It has a unique method of space travel (two actually when you include wormholes) as well as great characters, interesting technology, and well written battles.
That’s awesome! I own the first book, I’m looking forward to it!
@@WordsinTime the later books run into the 'throw more missiles at the problem' to scale the battles up to anime levels. The battles in the earlier books are more character-sized.
@@brendanrobertson5966 Thanks for the info!
In the beginning yes, the battles are well written. But somewhere in tha way, they devolved into "who hasthe shinniest new toy?", plus the plot armor is so tick sometimesit's embarassing. And, of course, HH is probably one ofthe worst Mery Sues in the entire SF scenario these days.
Great video. I wasn't sure if Hyperion was considered a space opera or not. It's such a great series. I need to find more like it. Thanks again for suggesting it. I'm working on Childhood's End right now. It's a really good book.
Thanks Dale! I’m not sure there really is anything like Hyperion. The Sun Eater series has some Dune and Hyperion influences. I’m glad you’re enjoying Childhood’s End!
By the way, I think a book like A Fire Upon the Deep definitely deserves a mention in the context of what space opera does best. As does Iain Banks, if course.
But let me also take the opportunity to plug Ken Macleod's Engines Of Light trilogy. It plays some rather nifty twists on some genre tropes, while stille having some good ideas and great and rather original world building.
Indeed! I’ve read A Fire Upon the Deep and two Banks books. I plan to read more! I’ll have to check out Engines of Light!
I haven't read many of the newer examples but Peter F. Hamilton's Night's Dawn Trilogy was the space opera that I loved of the classics that I read (and still love it to this day). The Reality Dysfunction, etc.
Awesome! I recently read the Commonwealth Saga so I will have to try Night’s Dawn as well!
@@WordsinTime The only tip I'd give is to read the 3 volume edition, not the 6 book edit. It works much better as the 3 books as originally intended.
Currently rereading The Reality Dysfunction, I never did get round to the sequels.
GOD I loved Ring and the unique ship.
For me in space opera I need mind-blowing ideas, or dabbles deep into physics.
Pandoras Star was perfect at this. I loved the Starflier War so much I am legit mad how much I hate the Void Trilogy.
I love the expanse so far, but one of the books grinds to a HALT and turns into a "find the criminal" story that reduces the epic scale down to nothing. I hope the next will be better
Ring is so good! I thought the last 3 Expanse books were strong so I hope you enjoy them!
The Aliance - Union Universe series by C.J. Cherryh and Imperial Radch by Ann Leckie are interesting series that I read over the years. Combined both military action as well as interesting personal and social aspects to the stories.
I have read Ancillary Justice and enjoyed it. I need to check out CJ Cherryh!
I really liked you method of defining what makes a Space Opera book works, totally agree! Thanks for the recomendations!
I’m glad it was helpful!
Excellent look at Space Opera, and some nice food for thought.
Thanks so much Jack, glad it was helpful!
Great video! I also enjoy Space Operas and I agree with everything you said about what makes them great 😃
Thanks so much Cindy! I’m glad you enjoy some of these features in space operas as well!
In my younger years I definitely remember enjoying "The Icarus Hunt" by Timothy Zahn. More recently, I really enjoyed the Ancillary series by Ann Leckie.
The former is more of a guilty pleasure that plays out a bit like an action movie combined with a few mystery elements (keeping it vague to avoid spoilers). But I really like it as a standalone novel.
The latter really turned some of my perceptions around in terms of character dynamics in-universe.
Also in my younger years I remember being blown away by a lot of the concepts in the Eon series by Greg Bear, but I guess a lot of people think the book is dumb.
Probably beating a dead horse, but I really loved The Expanse series for so many reasons.
I have read Ancillary Justice, but need to check out The Icarus Hunt and Eon. Thanks for the recommendations!
@@WordsinTime I think one of my favorite parts about the Icarus Hunt on my first read is that it just jumps into the action instead of taking the time to introduce characters or have you be bored with some state of normalcy before the inciting incident happens.
The story's already happening and you don't know who's who or what the rules are in the universe (especially because it's a standalone novel). But you don't need to be TOLD, you figure out by reading the story. It was the first story I'd read that really did that.
After reading Peter F Hamilton’s Pandora’s Star and Judas Unchained I think my expectation from a good space opera is a vast number of details. I loved how Hamilton doesn’t care about the number of pages and just goes on and on with submerging you into his world.
They’re great for readers that love to be immersed in the details!
I love my space opera when it is sprinkled with romance. Not a necessity for me but it's nice to have some. But the biggest factor would be your no.4 point, you gotta go big with your story
Nice! It’s good to have relationships to root for!
Most of what I read is Space Opera but what is considered Space Opera these days is much different from what I think of when I call something Space Opera.
I like the definition in The Science Fiction Encyclopedia by Peter Nicholls:
Quoting Wilson Tucker from 1941 "The hacky, grinding, stinking, outworn spaceship yarn."
I might be the old guy saying get off my lawn but I want my SF to have some fun, exciting space-based character driven adventure.
Haha fair enough. It is fun to read a story with a spirit of adventure!
I just picked up Dan Simmons ilium today!
It’s very ambitious!
Loved this video! Excellent work!
Thanks Jim! I’m glad you enjoyed it! 🚀
I really liked the red rising series number 5 was great dark age . Big world to play in . I always liked Arthur C Clarke books especially the RAMA series . I t was so descriptive that I could see it .
I’m looking forward to the Rama movie!
@@WordsinTime I did not know about a movie can not wait
Where are the women?? :) There are so many brilliant female sci-fi authors. I love Becky Chambers Wayfarer world! Or Ursula Le Guins books.
I mentioned Arkady Martine in the video. Ann Leckie and Ursula K. Le Guin are also important writers. I own the first Wayfarers book and look forward to reading it soon!
Have you evwr read H Beam (or bean i cant remember) piper, his future Terran fed books are my favorite
I haven’t, I’ll have to look them up!
Interesting video! I do love me some space opera.
Thanks Lisa! It’s one of my favourites too 🚀
Great vid!👍👍👍
Thanks! I’m glad you enjoyed it!
Stop tempting me with more books! Also, I am so bad with subgenres. What, exactly, constitutes space opera, as opposed to something else? I guess this is something I'm drawn to, since I want to read all of these.
And I have read (and LOVED) Hyperion. OH, THE TREEEEEEEEEE!
* runs to change computer wallpaper *
Good question, I don’t know if there’s a strict definition but I would say any sci-fi book where space travel and adventure is a main focus. And yes, the treeships are awesome!
@@WordsinTime Huh. If that is the definition then i guess space operas is what i'd like, since i love books focused on adventures. And it was what initially drew me to the fantasy genre.
Space operas versus fantasy: the main difference is magic is employed instead of technology.
I love space opera. I agree Reynolds is great, yet I'm having the hardest time finding a book that is not so far flung. I want something that is based in reality. 1979s film Alien comes to mind. Not so much alien factor but the ship, it's purpose of mining ore, that with a bit of human drama mixed in. Does anyone have a suggestion? Thanks.
Good question. The only space opera that comes to mind at the moment is The Expanse. It has some sci-fi elements but it’s set in the near future and is relatively grounded and the focus is the people.
Go see an opera! :) Great video - thanks!
Any excuse to dress up!
Days of Glory by Brian Stableford is a good one. It is more a retelling of a Greek tragedy than a modern style of story but it is very good. I read it getting on 40 years ago.
Thanks for the recommendation, I’ll have to look it up!
I read the Hyperion and Endymion series, I love those books I prefer the Hyperion series as it has so much lore that sadly is not explored/or is "retconed" in Endymion, for example the war in the future. I like Endymion but not the same way as Hyperion series. I love it because the book is not written from your classic POV of the Hero, Raul is a side character who just acompanies the Hero and tels his own story and the story of the Hero and I love it. What I don't like about Endymion is how some of the lore is "retconed" from previous books and the extremely long descriptions of T'ien Shan everytime it is mentioned.
The worlds are really alive, the technological progress is really shown. I love how Hyperion is shown to really change betwean the books. I also love De Soya, his my favourite Catholic character from that series.
I completely agree! I liked the Endymion story and De Soya as a character, but didn’t love all of the retconning.
@@WordsinTime What I hate the most is how the future war betwean the Shrike/Shrikes and humanity was "forgotten" , unless Simons decides to continue the story with Petyr (but thats very unlikely), Endymion also ruined the mystery of Shrike for me, I don't really like how he was defeated multiple times by Nemes, but it was still interesting to read.
One thing I really like about Scalzi's Old Mar War stories is that Humanity is the bully/big kid on the block that the rest of the galaxy is forced to organize against. We're not quite the bad guys, but we're definitely not the good guys either.
Yeah, it’s an interesting perspective!
You must read ,,Heechee'' saga by Frederik Pohl
I read the first book and quite enjoyed it!
I'm glad you like it! The second and the third is very good, also!
I really have to finish Hyperion.
@@ronhutcherson9845 It’s great! Hope you enjoy!
It's too bad Dan Simmons doesn't put the same thought and care into his newer material.
I’ve only read the Hyperion Cantos and the Ilium duology. The seem like his best sci-fi.
Another thing you can do is to go the expanse route and go smaller instead of larger. Instead of colonizing an entire galaxy, you colonize a single star system. People underestimate how mind numbingly huge our own solar system is, you also don't just colonize planets you can also colonize moons, asteroids, comets, giant megastructures like oneil cylinders. If you possess magical artifical gravity you can use it on asteroids to give them an atmosphere, allowing you to walk around like on a planet. You can have massive epic space battles reminiscent of wh40k or star wars, and it wouldn't even affect the entire solar system because the human populations could be in the quadrillions. Aliens are just future humans genetically altered or adapted to halfway terraformed worlds, or cyborgs, or ai or posthumans. All this without FTL.
@@69Kazeshini Good points!
Could you post a list of the novels you cover?
In this video I talked about:
Ring by Stephen Baxter
Pandora’s Star by Peter F. Hamilton
Hyperion by Dan Simmons
The Expanse by James S.A. Corey
Dune by Frank Herbert
Red Rising by Pierce Brown
Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky
A Memory Called Empire by Arkady Martine
Ilium by Dan Simmons
@@WordsinTime Thank you a ton! You just went real quick and was not able to rewind or take notes.
Space Opera needs to have a new idea at the core. Dune had the idea of the dangers of a charismatic figure; Foundation had the idea of predicting and shaping human history. And so on.
Also, it should make us Think. Exercise the mind AND point us towards an important real world issue. Using Dune as an example, thebook was one of the first (the first?) to seriously tackle environmental questions.
And, of course, it must bring something new to the genre, plus be interesting into itself.
One of the major problems I have with much of modern Space Opera (looking at you, Honor Harrington) is that they just take the napoleonic wars and put it in space. Same titles, same societies, same tactics. Hell, half the covers have ships with sails and masts on them.
Great points! I think Sun Eater might be a modern series that will scratch a bit more of that philosophical itch.
@@WordsinTimeyeah just waiting for book 6-though is a depressing read🤣
What did you think of Battlefield Earth, by Ron Hubbard? Did that hit 2 of the 3 points?
I haven’t actually read Battlefield Earth. Did you enjoy it?
Battlefield Earth is a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine. It didn't really get into any great concepts, but it had some decent characters, in a pulpy sense, and the story was fun.
@@WordsinTime Yes I did enjoy it. You think the story will be over when the villains are destroyed, but there is still a lot of good plot.
Tell me if you think this idea for a space opera is good:
Aeons ago, a powerful race of creatures couldn't decide what to do with their criminal underclass. So, they came up with the idea of sending to their criminals to a quiet planet somewhere in a nearby spiral galaxy. They built a fleet of spaceships and designed them to look "retro", similar to vehicles designed thousands of years previously when that race was just learning how to fly in heavier than air vehicles. They took these criminals to the planet, tied them up around a volcano and dropped atomic bombs into the volcano, detonating it and exploding the people into tiny pieces, that somehow seemed to float around.
Aeons later that planet would develop life, one species of which eventually became sentient and dominate. The parts of the star criminals latched on to the intelligent life! A brilliant author of the best space opera classics on the planet realised this was happening and created a religion that could remove those parts of the star criminals from the people, eventually freeing those poor people who would then become the best people on that planet, capable of operating on a different level to those not freed this way.
Somehow, because the star criminals had remembered their last flight in those spaceships, when the intelligent life developed heavier-than-air flight, one of the most popular designs was known as the "DC10". This plane looked exactly like the ships used to ferry the criminals to that planet. What was the name of this planet? Kepler 62e ...
Anyway, enjoyed the video, thanks for making.
Haha sounds familiar!
definitely agree with point 4, but I find what matters is going big in the story, not just the world. I think that's a reason I'm not a big fan of the Culture books, it's set in this huge universe yet all the books (I have read) seem very confined to a small part of that world. Compare that to Simmons/Reynolds/Corey/Hamilton where often all of humanity is at stake.
Yes, I love a book that goes big with the story ideas or the sci-fi concepts!
Funny, the term Space Opera originally meant a soap opera set in space, a genre og cheap, trivial sci-fi from the 60'es, and the complete opposite of what it means to most people today.
Yes, it definitely appears the meaning has changed over time!
Gets a tiny bit murky and subject to interpretation, what is and what isn't space opera.
Into the 2nd half of his career, Robert A Heinlein started to tie his stories and worlds together. He came up with an idea of World as Myth, where a world / alternative universe, becomes 'real' when enough people know it and imagine it and live out some of the lives and awareness in it. So the world of Gulliver's Travels is very much real, and so is Dorothy and Toto and the Wizard of Oz. If enough people read your stories and think and dream in them, they become real. So the fact we are aware of multiple worlds, means it is possible to travel between them. Many of those worlds feature time travel, so in most worlds, time travel is possible. That means you absolutely need a Time Police, to stop the future from messing with the past. That's kinda like the Oval Office, that's where the real power is...
Most of this stuff wasn't originally written to be part of this, but late in life, he started to tie it together. So you got some really fascinating characters, like Lazarus Long, (Time Enough for Love, then featured in a dozen or so follow-ups) who may or may not have been his own father...
Those are some interesting ideas! Ilium and Olympos by Dan Simmons uses some similar concepts.
The Gap series by Stephen Donaldson is the best I have read. It's very adult content though. Very cerebral writing. It has all three of your criteria as well.
One of my favourite things about it though is the space travel method. The Gap.
Ships must speed up slowly with the crew strapped in. Taking up to a day or so to reach the appropriate speed.
Then they hit the button and punch through space. Like instant warp travel.
Then they must brake over the same time period on the other side.
The thing is though is the distance travelled through the gap fluctuates. But in general the faster you go the further you go.
So it makes for some amazing scenarios and space battles judging where ships will exit the gap and when and such. Very entertaining.
It sounds very good but very dark haha. I will have to check it out!
There are some terrible space operas out there. EE Doc smith and his Lensman series always bored me. He had a group of super characters with no arc. There was no development ever. They were always great at everything ll the time. I think he'd do well right now as a lot of shows seem to be creating one note heroes or heroines who always are just great.
Yawn.
Big fan of Webers Harrington series but I'm a military history buff so I would. also enjoyed Elizabeth Moon and her Vatta's war. Also like Lois macmaster Bujold and her Miles Vorkosigan books. Again a lot of military history interspersed in her story.
Also read and enjoyed Chris Bunch's Lost Legion series which is a more military nuts and bolts view of Asimov's Foundation series which itself is a retelling of the decline and fall of the roman empire with a person attempting to make sure a great and just society springs up as quickly as possible after the fall of the current galactic empire.
Canticle for Leibowitz isn't Space Opera but it has that historical view I like. Ditto for Asimov's foundation series. Lot of asimov and heinlein stuff is informed by their experience of the second world war.
I will have to read Leviathan Wakes.
Someone here lists CJ Cherryh's books and yeah I like all her series. She has an interesting touch on characters and aliens. I definitely got lost down the Foreigner Rat Hole (21 books to date, take that robert jordan) which is a multi-book series dealing with the first contact problem.
The merchanter alliance books are good, as is the Chanur series and the Mri war.
Thanks for all the great recommendations!
@@WordsinTime Thank you. Just found your takes recently. I am a big old timey science fiction fan and haven't had much luck with more recent sci-fi aside for Iain Banks and now am getting ready to read Hyperion and Leviathan Wakes, so thank you.
@@biffstrong1079 Leviathan Wakes feels modern but I found it to be a fun read. Hyperion is more ambitious and thematic, and might appeal to fans of classic sci-fi.
Honest talk, I find the essay’s theme is undercut by mislabeling the subgenre. Books like Dune, Hyperion, A Memory Called Empire and Red Rising are NOT Space Operas. Dune and Red Rising are Planetary Adventure, while Hyperion is basic Science Fantasy and AMCE is a Science Fiction Mystery.
Like Urban Fantasy where the distinguishing characteristic is that it’s set in a city, Space Opera has to have a significant portion set in outer space. It also requires action and adventure, usually on an epic scale. AMCE is a quite good, but it’s primarily focused on one character trying to navigate alien politics while also attempting to solve a murder. I don’t even recall any scenes set in outer space. Red Rising does have a sequence set in space but the vast majority of the book takes place on and under the surface of Mars.
There are numerous book series where individual entries are different sci-fi subgenres, such as Bujold’s Vorkosigan saga or the Sten series by Cole and Bunch. One book might be a Space Opera while another is a Prison Break, which gives a feeling that the overall work is Space Opera in the vein of Star Trek, but that “series-as-a-whole” consideration is pretty rare. Murderbot, for instance, visits numerous planets and space stations and travels on a couple different spaceships, but the series never hits any of the common tropes of Space Opera.
Ultimately by making the Space Opera definition too broad, you’re basically talking about elements that make any book good.
@@Fabulist I think the disagreement here is that I think space operas can include planets other than Earth whereas you are claiming that they need to be primarily set in outer space. If you look up any of the books I mentioned they will be tagged as space operas, so I think in general the term space opera is used more broadly. But if you want to use a more narrow definition then that’s fine by me.
I just think that there needs to be specific definitions and boundaries for subgenres, otherwise it’s no longer helpful, either for sorting works or giving recommendations.
As an analogy, if someone enjoyed Moby Dick, then a good recommendation would be Master & Commander. A bad recommendation would be The Red Badge of Courage. That’s the equivalent of recommending Dune to someone who liked Honor Harrington. They don’t have a congruence of themes, scenes or tropes. Different subgenres.
@WordsinTime >>> 👍👍
Thanks Allan!
@@WordsinTime >>> You're Welcome.