Does Brain Science Disprove the Soul?
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- Опубліковано 14 гру 2012
- Richard Swinburne (Oxford University) and Tim O'Connor (Indiana University) weigh substance dualism on the scales of contemporary neuroscience-how does the existence of the soul comport with empirical neuro-research?
This video is provided by Biola University's Center for Christian Thought. Learn more at cct.biola.edu.
Richard is simply brilliant! He gives me more faith that I have a soul than any other argument that contends the body is the soul. It makes so much sense to me. I’ve watched him on CTT Chanel with Robert Kuhn.
Non-necessity is not an argument for non-existence
It is generally used because it is supported by Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is that something that has no need has no reason to exist. And it is very difficult to argue for a God who creates something without a purpose.
@@arthursouza7 but overly relying on that metaphorical razor makes one commit the B&W fallacy; the most simplest and logical explanation is not always the correct choice
@@arthursouza7 there is no reason or necessity of you means you are a an illusion
Don't be scared to die. Strive to be a good person and you will be alright. The worst that can happen is there is no afterlife. If that's the case there's nothing you can do about it.
I believe the worst thing that can happen is an afterlife, perhaps you’d be bound for hell, or maybe another religions version. I know I would
Well, You Will Know The Truth Sooner Or Later, Just Be Prepare, God Bless.
@@zamexnox I believe I’m aware of it now
You're an apostate and the worst thing you can think of is annihilationism?
tightly crossed legs suggests intellectual discussions. :)
Legs crossed agreed! Althought they cross their legs the way a woman would men leave alittle space in between their legs this point to a lowered level of testosterone
Right I guess they have good pain tolerance
these guys are crazy
Fantastic conversation!
Reading these comments let’s me know we humans never take anything seriously. 🤣💯
How so?
If I can understand what this guy is saying I would watch it again
Similar problem like: how did the first living organism arise, how dit the first multicellar organism arise, how did the first fish, amphibian, reptile, mamal, human arise. I guess in all these cases one can't make a sharp distinction.
Quran 39:5 (interpretation of the meaning):
He created the heavens and earth in truth. He wraps the night over the day and wraps the day over the night and has subjected the sun and the moon, each running [its course] for a specified term. Unquestionably, He is the Exalted in Might, the Perpetual Forgiver.
Quran 39:6 (interpretation of the meaning):
He created you from one soul. Then He made from it its mate, and He produced for you from the grazing livestock eight mates. He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, within three darknesses. That is Allah , your Lord; to Him belongs dominion. There is no deity except Him, so how are you averted?
How: chance + time + evolution
@@noorel-shazly6815 quoting something doesn't make it true nor does a book compiled by many people who memorized oral teachings from an uneducated warlord merchant
Well the first X type of being didn't just magically emerge, more like through evolution different life forms eventually transitioned to what we now consider human, reptile, fish, etc
How?well Mutation,selective adaptive radiation, evolution
I think I have a dualist view and I just can't help it..this is bothering me
They don't answer the question, does soul exist? Beating around the bush in unintelligible language.
Difficult to understand but i am sure being a scientist research analyst there is no soul, no spirit, no afterlife. This is all an excuse to overcome the grief of loosing a beloved.
What so 66 eyewitnesses writing in the Bible is all fake to you?
Might you say that the brain as it develops TEMPORARILY takes place of the soul, but at death the brain relinquishes its hold on the individual back to the soul, and from that point on the soul once again guides one through the hereafter (from which one actually emerged).
It seems that he is equating the soul with free will. He conceds that some part of brain function is out of our control, desire he calls it but that we can choose to ignore certain desires. Of course choosing to sort of overcome desires may just appear to be a choice but that may simply be based on other desires. We may avoid that second piece of pie out of a desire to lose weight to be more attractive or healthy. How does one begin to prove that something other than physical laws related to physics, chemistry, neurons firing, hormones being produced as a reaction to stress is going on, some soul at work. I can not imagine a world without me in it. So I project that fault in my thinking into an immortal soul. There are growing gaps in my memory. I am 73. It is possible, likely even that the person that I was at twenty will be nothing like the me now. My thoughts, beliefs, fears, joys will have nothing in common with that young man. I may even become senile and have no control of my thoughts. Were will the evidence of this soul be then as the chemistry, the biology slowly takes away thought, awareness existence.?
If a sufferer of epilepsy has his corpus collosum split so the two hemispheres of his brain act independently of each other and have their own wills and desires, does that person now have two souls?
No
yes
I believe Swinburne would answer this question as such: The fact that we can know exactly what happened to every physical portion of the body/brain, yet not exactly what happened to the soul (if we now have one or two of them) proves that they are not one and the same thing (as they are not numerically identical). He would argue that is isn't necessary that we know everything about souls, and would only need to know (as proved by this example) that they are not one and the same thing.
So if your video game character has epilepsy and has his corpus collosum split, then logically there are now two of you sitting at the computer. Makes sense.
peanie wilpnips 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
I just wanna hear him say "Pardon me, do you have any Grey poupon"!
They never went into definitions. A soul is something that can experience feelings? How couldn't that be gradual? I would argue that the first feelings were rather simple compared to what they are now, probably indistinguishable from instinct or reflex.
Huh?
That makes sense. The older fellow contends that ants probably don't experience feelings. But surely ants experience fear -they try to escape predators. This is certainly an instinct, but the line between instinct and feeling is rather blurred. And as animals become more complex, the change from instinct to feelings becomes more distinct.
Feelings are chemicals in the brain
The brain of an animal is less smarter than human , that's why we humans experience more feelings , smart=feel
@@raseelvk sure, the brain is chemicals in the brain after all.
edge
It can't be proven or not whether we have a soul.. people have had near death experiences but nobody has had a dead experience.
@ exactly.they were getting oxygen.nobody has been actually dead with their blood pooling on one side of their body and came back to life.near death is NOT dead.
@Psicólogo Miguel Cisneros lmao yeah sure,and i can prove i'm the Queen of england lol. You're a clown.
@Psicólogo Miguel Cisneros gives us said proof, of are you just talking shit
You were dead before you were born, Dont you remember?
Dead people had a dead experience i guess.
I WAS WONDERING IF WE ALL HAVE SOULS WHAT ELEMENTS WOULD IT BE MADE OF GAS LIQUID SOLID ATOMS GASES AND WHAT WOULD BE THE SOULS PURPOSE INSIDE OUR BRAINS THIS MAY TAKE SCIENCE AND COMPUTER VS OUR BRAINS TO FIND OUT
what is your consciousness made of?
A concept of the soul doesn't necessarily require a duelist view, this is the pseudo-scientific method physicalists use to try to "prove" certain things don't exist, as physicalist they state that only physical "things" exist (non-empirical) & then state that as the particular entities concerned are not physical, they can't exist, a purely rational process full of assumptions, what prevents one calling what they call spiritual or non-physical physical? Maybe the soul is the bioholographic field produced by all the interferences of the bodies biophotons that spontaneously are released 8 hours after death called the deathflash, maybe things can be physical & non-physical at the same time like wave-particle complementarity
Design an experiment where a 'soul" can leave the body and see something and then report what has been seen, otherwise you are just engaging in wishful thinking. BTW, how can you see without eyes, or think without a brain? Why does anesthesia cause the individual to have no experience of the period during unconsciousness? Shouldn't he still be able to experience reality if the mind is truly autonomous?
Stating that only physical things exist is an empirical decision. They dont say not physical things can‘t exist, they say we need an arguable explanation for what they are.
@btw Buddhism is True Thisness expresses itself in the form of various phenomena, including the human mind, much the way the sea expresses itself in waves. In that sense there is only one soul and we all share it.
There are enough reasons for the belief in the existence of the metaphysician. But this does not necessarily imply the existence of the soul.
Souls can't leave their bodies and float around like Casper the Friendly Ghost any more than the speed of an automobile can go out for a drive while the engine and wheels remain in the garage. A soul cannot see without eyes any more than it can think or remember without a brain. Your personality and self-awareness are not an incorporeal phantom that exists in isolation from the rest of nature, they are a whole array of interactions with the world, from electrochemical responses of neurons and synapses to the nervous system and other organs that support it, to the food that sustains it, to the genetics and biological evolution which produces it, and ultimately to the Earth, solar system and entire universe of which it is a part. The notion that "you" exist as a distinct entity is an illusion.
If you are born with a soul, why do some become evil?
hope that was useful
The existence of the soul does not contradict the existence of free will and evil.
“Did Hitler have a soul?”
“No!”
“Then, neither do any of us!”
Everyone has a soul, the soul is not evil but the human trapped in matter does the evil if they stray away from the soul which is the good.
It’s not Gods fault. It’s their fault. God gave us a choice to be with him or not be with him. Although confirmed as a Catholic, Hitler was by no means a conventional Christian. He rejected such things as the deity, resurrection, and miracles of Jesus. So he wasn’t really religious.
Tim's credibility as a man of good sense and reason is laid completely to waste by the Birkenstocks at 2:42.
The Agent cannot be reduced to materials. Science, itself, is possible because it is an activity done by an agent. Who is doing science? Scientist. Is material doing science? Can material have 'knowledge' of things? That is absurd. Materials understanding materials is an absurd idea.
이찬휴 the agent is the result of material interaction, not the material. Your argument is flawed. Conciousness is the result of information stored in the form of action potentials. If you look at a neural network, the information isn't the material but it's the interaction between the units.
So how does a neural network create consiousness then?
rilletheone we don't have enough computing power right now or sensing capabilities but if you are able to map out every neuron connection for an individual and then translated it to a computer, you would be essentially cloning their "conciousness". I don't like the word conciousness tbh because what you see and how you perceive is a mechanical process. Children who have bad for sight of consiquence is directly caused by lower neuron count in their frontal lobes.
That little voice in your head, believe it or not, not everyone has that. It's a side effect of our use of language. Until you are able to explain why damage to broca's are causes choppy speech in a dualist view (and verify in a lab) or why damage to the brain can cause massive changes to the personality. You have no ground to stand on.
No neuroscientists in the world can formulate the first clause of a theory, that explains how firing neurons can create a subjective experience. It's just electrons after all.
Organisation can not explain consciousness.
Any proof of this?
No
If the brain is just another organ we would all learn the same. We would be computers to always give the same results. We do not. We learn different according to desires, maybe of the souls, and become independent entities. We become different souls wrapped in similar physical bodies.
Well brains vary from person to person like a fingerprint so no, we wouldn’t have the same results if it were just another organ
Different brain, different DNAs, different environment. If different souls (if they exist) were given the EXACT same conditions, they may just be identical people.
@@user-of5wu4gi3s ... There cannot be "same conditions". Conditions are like beauty. It is in the eye of the beholder. The same conditions cannot be the same because of perceptions.
@@jimb5113 Right. But just because we are all different individuals it doesn't mean we have souls.
@@user-of5wu4gi3s
Souls are debatable unless the mind is closed at the beginning. It could be the soul that makes us individuals.
That makes even life before birth more than a bump on the birth mother's tummy. It gives a fetus "life" worthy of protection. It makes everyone, regardless of physical defects, life and worthy of protection.
When life and the value it has is refused worth of existence then a soul means nothing and if the soul, real or not, has no value then neither will any life such as yours or mine. To remove value of life, with the soul or not, allows destruction of life for government control instead of control of life itself. A heartless destruction of life is how Hitler killed his millions, of soul supported life.
In the...
A person who had a head injury in a car accident lost his memories. Now his soul ? Is it lost .. where has it gone..this person is now abnormal so where is soul
The brain filters conciseness so that it resides in the body until death
Plus when having Alzheimer’s right before he was dead the man was able to speak perfect sentences which he couldn’t for months before then died
@@thebestmido8251 "The brain filters conciseness so that it resides in the body until death"
What do you mean by "filters consciousness"?
Chad so basically it runs like a computer it’s the soul runs it and a brain powers it after death the soul rapidly expands that explains why people with Alzheimer’s were able to speak perfect sentences which they couldn’t do for months right before death that’s the soul expanding I’ve done some research because a lot of scientists and me now start to believe materialism is a dead end because they’re things such as ndes and much more they’re people who were blind since birth who could accurately describe things during an out of body experience such as facial features and even sticky notes and a person who had all the blood drained from their brain and completely shut off and it still was perfectly conscious during the whole interactions during that’s just scrapping the surface of evidence a whole study in England gave up when they couldn’t explain these phenomenons I too thought it was lies until I looked into it and ndes aren’t the only proof genetic memory and electrons show movement without brain interference and even the brain loses all memory when the human dies or soul leaves the body
@@thebestmido8251 Very interesting stuff, thanks for the info. So if the brain is what powers the soul, wouldn't the consciousness of the soul cease when the brain dies and the power supply is cut off?Also, if the soul expands at the point of death, wouldn't that mean that the soul has spacial location? I don't understand ow something that's non-physical can expand or have spacial location.
Maybe the development of the brain allows a greater interaction with the "Soul"
Prolly
The human body works together as a single unit with e soul / spirit. This is exactly why a person can be clinically brain dead and all their organs be kept fully functioning with the aide of machines. The person is clinically still alive but there is brain itself is absent of any brain activity.
In other words the soul / spirit of a person is like the driver of the car. Once the soul/spirit is paired with the body (car) then the body and soul/spirit (driver) can function as a single fully functioning person (human).
The concept is highly unusual but then again, the Bible tells us this exactly that the physical body is just a temporary container for the human spirit..... which is, BTW, eternal like God, since God created people in His own image > an eternal spirit....
The reason why the human physical body shows highly similar characteristics to animals in the animal kingdom is b/c God used roughly the same template for people when God created animals. What differentiates people from animals is that people have a soul / spirit coupled with a highly complex brain and complex body which places humans at the very top of the animal pyramid.
The key point to remember is that the physical body can do nothing without the soul / spirit which is exactly why a brain dead person can be kept 100% alive on on hospital machines but unable to function whatsoever.
BTW ~ Animals have animal instincts wired into them at birth and so do humans as well. What makes the human species extraordinary different is that the human species has an incredible ability to think and learn on extraordinary levels.
Of course, this is based on if an individual considers the possibility that an omnipotent and omniscient being such as the God, that is talked about in the Bible, is REAL.
The brain is a vehicle of the soul, except the soul doesn’t die if your brain does. It really just comes down to belief, obviously you can’t prove it either way. Even scientists are more and more open to parallel worlds or higher dimensions so there’s so much we just don’t know. So in the material world yea you die but maybe live in another dimension 🤷♂️ a lot of athiests just don’t believe in the God in the sky concept but have they thought about other possibilities?
@Darknees XL sure that’s a fair belief.... have you ever been in an a science fair? Seriously...
That is a bunch of pseudo science mumbo jumbo. Prove the soul exists before making any assertions and connections to anything else.
@@raldjones489 let them cope the low iq scum will forever cope . With a shock in life that snaps the ground beneath they will only bring them to reality not this comfortable life where they can put out bullshit
@@raldjones489do you want to see it????💀
J
I still haven't found anybody given real proof that we have a soul. Show or a demonstration of it. All is theory and talk.
Mere human beings cannot demonstrate what souls is for we do not know what soul is. How can we demonstrate soul if it is imperceptible?
Ok and a lot of scientific theories are also just theories serving as filler explanations for natural phenomena that are eventually debunked by new theories anyways
We are soon coming to a time we will witness a fully cognitive A.I. that will say,. "Ouch, damn it that hurt,.please be more careful" . On that day all these musings by Tim O'Connor will be exposed as simply wishful thinking.
Yet that AI would still be the result/endowment of human intelligence.
Anthony Greico Well said good sir💯
Thank you my dude.
@@tristansiltanen so what if the cognitive ai is create by human? Since we copy(cloned) living being capablility(function) into some some mechanical thing. Meaning us human only capable modifing existing resource. Not creating new resource. Making ur statement about god a creator is Irelevan. Since god is creator, Not an inventor that modifing exsiting resource.
But it might be a philosophical zombie
I don't think anyone has proven a soul exists nor ever will. It's a religious claim which they have so much of a burden in the first place. This video is just more talk and nothing more.
I think science can't prove nor disprove the soul.
I believe in God. And you’re correct there are things that science can’t prove. Like how did evolution start. Like what caused the RNA and DNA to be on earth
I really hope there is no soul since consciousness suck!
@Psicólogo Miguel Cisneros You are a definitive proof that consciousness truly suck!
@Psicólogo Miguel Cisneros u must be so fun at parties...
it does not even make sense to attribute memory to a physical entity. oh look a little bit of fatty tissues there is grandma. What ?
One must laugh at any claim that conscious can be explained materialistically.
www.evolutionnews.org/2014/12/recalling_nanas091821.html
Joshua Hults Don't worry Joshua, the contents of the brain is extremely subjective, in fact its contents is what makes you you. So it's not suited for application of objectively falsifiable evidence to explain to you who you are. But as is the case with the behavioral Sciences, a strict, accept-no-bullshit-artists method such as the Scientific method has a better chance to explain to you what makes you tick than anything else. Warning: the explanation may last longer than 2 minutes before regressing into unproven and unfalsifiable doctrine, as presented by Swinburne here... so, I'm afraid that if you want an answer to the question, you must learn things, and listen for longer than 2 minutes to the explanation. Would that be okay?
BaldingEagle51 I watched the entire show. To understand the problem here, program a computer to know it exist, and to know that it knows that it exist. When done with that, tell program it to see images that are not actually present for anyone to see. Then program it to see the color red when light waves are present. When you have worked this out get back to me, we are going to make billions.
Joshua Hults Which entire show? :)
BaldingEagle51 Sorry did you program a computer to do what I asked ? It should be easy enough to do if possible, go make it happen, make us that GREEN !! I am racist, I like Green a lot more than white and brown yellow and black. Go get us that green baby
Joshua Hults Sorry, not interested in "whatever you want me to do". Which entire show? :)
The ego of the non-seeker and the non-believer is conscious only of its own omnipotence, and sets out to disprove there is any higher dimension out of which the earth could have taken form. It argues away the voice of the soul relayed through the psyche, and with each argument entombs itself more firmly within the perceptions of the material and visible world which represent their only security.
Therefore, the soul remains imprisoned within the ego mental/emotional electrical/magnetic chains, and the human mind remains convinced that there is no soul - that the earthly dimension of existence and the physical life force are the only realities.
If such people’s minds are determined to reject any inspirational whispers from the psyche/soul, the body suffers minor ailments, relationships are strained and life generally is stressful; a disease may follow.
CHRIST'S LETTERS from JESUS CHRIST
Philosophers talking bollocks, which is all philosophers can do. What a horrible way to have to earn a living, maybe they should learn a useful trade or skill but of course they never will nor, I suspect, could they.
Philosophy is the love of wisdom. It is deep thought to think about the world around us.
@@MrFossil367ab45gfyth I think therefore I spam.
@@cliveadams7629 , what do you mean? I'm not spamming you. I am simply replying to your comment.
@MrFossil367ab45gfyth You have a long way to go on the deep thought front, I fear wisdom will continue to elude you for quire some time. Maybe take some classes in philosophy before you comment on it.
@@cliveadams7629 , I took an Intro to Philosophy course in college.
No, science cannot disprove the soul.
Disprove???😂😂it has not even been proven yet in the first place.
@@superbuddy2493 there is more evidence for a soul the not.
@@superbuddy2493 gg scrub
@@waifuislaifu6344 as you wish, simpleton manchild 👍
@@waifuislaifu6344 cite the evidences
soul claims are so antiquated
There was no soul
But there is one
There has yet to be any evidence of one
Really lame arguments. Where’s the evidence for the souls?
Why would we need a soul if there’s no evidence of an afterlife and plenty of good reasons to think an afterlife can be refuted?
My OpenMind there is evidence for the afterlife. Near death experiences, a century of research into ESP, and quantum physics. There is nothing in the laws of physics that says there can't be an afterlife.
Jessica Benson hallucinations and liars doesn’t count for near death experiences; especially when every ones story is different (different god, different environment, bias towards the religion they believe in). There has never been any evidence indicating there’s a soul. If there is send me the source.
x xx I’m actually very open minded. So what cult have you gave ur life away to? To be in denial you’d have to provide evidence for me to be in denial to but there NONE.
An argument for the existence of a soul wound''t come from evidence of an afterlife, evidence for an afterlife would come from the existence of a soul, which you have not refuted, instead only called lame. Admit your wrong or debunk it. This is the problem with society.
@x xx this is known as the god of the gaps. When you could possibly fit a more logical explanation for the reason we're in a universe that supports us you fit your god into it. The very first thing that I find in this is literally any other god can be fit as an explanation for why our universe supports our existence or even exists in the first place. The second thing I found is you can belive someone existed before everything but not anything else. To say it started from any creator is the same if not less logical than saying it formed naturally from no one. I say this because you might ask where this natural force came from but you would also have to answer where this infinitely powerful being came from. You could say they were always there but you could also say any other thing that started the universe was always there in a way we can barley grasp from our understanding of time. As for the "fine tuning" argument we don't actually know the probability for this universe existing or why it exists but there are reasons generated that are far simpler than god. In science it's known as occams razor and we have it for reason.
I'm sorry this is so long I just am not as much of a fan going back to youtube videos for debate. I have a discord if you perfer to discuss this further
Swinburne is the oldest introvert I've ever seen.
There is a soul, there is god
nah
You need to prove your claim, in order to make people believe you.
@@itsshitpost2659 Same thing with saying that once you're dead, you're dead. People don't know that... Only in the fleshly world they do. Atheists should prove that nothing happens to a person after they die. I'd like to see that.
@@jebiwob6129 How should they prove that? When people die, they die. Nobody can say anything about that neither atheist nor religious people.
@@jebiwob6129 Not everyone is saying when you die you die. When you assume a person's position you run the risk of being wrong. Some people simply leave it at not knowing and not attempting to fill it in with what they assume or want to be true. The issue I find in your position is that you are making a positive claim about what happens after we die and have not shown any reasoning as to why you believe that exact thing. Do you actually have an argument or reason or is that it?
Science can niether prove or disprove anything.
Well, it depends on the matter of the thing. Souls I think we can't prove nor disprove just like God.
Soul is a fake concept
Then you are a dead person.
No evidence to back up your claim bro
As fake as your empty profile
You don't understand that the soul is a fantasy just like god is.
Nice argument
Prove it.
You don t understand that aheism is fantasy just like god is
@@radudancoroian5169 Excuse me, the fuck?
Melancholia Right?!
No shit it disproves the soul.
Bro they just said it cant