Breakout from Saturn - The Italian Retreat from Stalingrad
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- Опубліковано 7 лют 2021
- Breakout from Saturn - The Italian Retreat from Stalingrad
Conflict on Camera
Neil Lawrence joins us to talk about a photo taken during the Italian retreat from Stalingrad over the winter of 1942/43. It does descend slightly into two old mates talking about WWII equipment, but hopefully you will enjoy it.
The books Neil recommends:
Few Returned: Diary of Twenty-eight Days on the Russian Front, Winter, 1942-43 by Eugenio Corti
USA bookshop.org/a/21029/97808262...
UK uk.bookshop.org/a/5843/978082...
The Sergeant in the Snow by Mario Rigoni Stern
UK uk.bookshop.org/a/5843/978081...
USA bookshop.org/a/21029/97808101...
Sacrifice on the Steppe: The Italian Alpine Corps in the Stalingrad Campaign, 1942-1943 by
Hamilton Hope
UK uk.bookshop.org/a/5843/978161...
Other WW2TV Shows about the Eastern Front:
Operation Barbarossa to the Siege of Leningrad • Operation Barbarossa t...
Stalingrad in Popular Memory • Stalingrad in Popular ...
Stalingrad 1 - The Flour Mill • Stalingrad 1 - The Flo...
Stalingrad 2 - Pavlov's House • Stalingrad 2 - Pavlov'...
Stalingrad 3 - Island of Fire • Stalingrad 3 - Island ...
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Angelo Capelletti was the eldest brother of my grandpa, 19 years old when he was sent from his village near Bergamo to the Don Front within the 2nd Sforzesca infantry division. Infantry guys fared even worse than Alpini , he was captured sometime during Saturn. I still have his letters, from summer in Ukraine to the fighting on the Don, interrupting suddenly at the end of December 1942. We know from two friends from his same village that managed to come home after years of captivity that they were eventually transferred in a POW camp in Ukraine (possibly late 1944-1945 or even after the War’s end) and there he was executed during nighttime by a soviet guard for collecting firewood without permission. Never got the body bag, he’s still somewhere in the Donbass
Thanks for sharing Gian Luca
I doubt he was killed for doing something he wasn't allowed to do. The Soviets took a different approach to POWs. They expected their POWs that were captured by the Germans to constantly break the rules, be disruptive, and always try to escape. They didn't punish their POWs for doing any of that. It was actually expected. If you didn't do your work would get you harsh treatment though. The Soviets depended on the free labor from the POWs immensely. If I had to guess your relative probably died horribly from Typhus or one of the other rampant diseases and he was just being kind telling you he had a quick death. Most of the Axis POWs died from disease, overwork or exposure. Not many were simply shot. That would be killing your own work force for something trivial.
@@robertschumann7737
My uncle Ernest fought in Ukraine - with the Treviso Alpini. He was captured & put into railcars along with hundreds of other prisoners.
After three days without water - several soldiers jumped out of their railcar to scoop up some snow. He said the Russians machine-gunned them all.
Their crime - trying to get some water for the sick & dying. My uncle spent nearly 10 years in Ukraine - as a prisoner farmer -- before he was repatriated.
Looking at this photo, and hearing the commentary, the level of pain, misery, and the harsh weather conditions, most people cannot begin to comprehend. The Italians fought well under the described conditions, which spoke volumes for their bravery and ruggedness. The Italians and Rumanians were charged with the protection of the flanks of German 6th Army. Both Armies were ill equipped for this mission. No motorized armor (tanks), outdated artillery (both sides) All, with the exception of the rugged Alpini Soldiers, were not prepped properly for the brutal Russian winter. Winterized clothing in adequate numbers, if at all, doomed these brave men to a frozen "hell on earth". Lack of proper rations was another moral buster for both Italian and Rumanian Forces. So when the Russian committed to the pincer move, neither the Italians or Rumanians were adequately prepared to protect the vital flanks of 6th Army. The Axis allies were at an extreme disadvantage when the Russians came-a-calling, with their numerous T-34 tanks on both ides of the pincer, and their numerical superiority. The Italians and Rumanians have NOTHING to be ashamed of! They did the best they could with the outdated arms, minus tanks, they were forced to fight with. Had the Germans provided them with the support needed to secure the flanks properly, history may have been different. I salute these brave Italians and Rumanians for their extreme bravery in a hopeless situation. Freezing to death, starving to death, or shot with a bullet was about the only 3-choices these Axis soldiers had. History has not been kind to these two Military Forces of the Axis, especially the Italians.But anyone who bothers themselves to do an in-depth study of the Russian Front Campaign will become aware of the suppressed stories of great bravery and sacrifice of the two defeated Armies, by the individual soldier.
Anche gli Ungheresi erano li
Thank you very much for this. Italian troops are always despised in history books in English. They were not cowards, they just lacked of fundamental equipment, armor and even food to compete with the "big guys" (USA, Germany, UK, USSR). Anyway, Italian troops and above all the Alpini made small miracles in Russia and on other fronts. Mancò la fortuna, non il valore.
Well, many Italians really would rather not fight. And they did often perform horribly.
Their fleet was very good though, and the troops were let down by Mussolini's ambition that far outdid the industrial capacity of his country. They generally did not have the hardware needed to fight.
@@PalleRasmussen I don't know what you mean with your first assertion. Who would want to fight a world war other than a madman, a fool, or a fanatic? If by that assertion you mean that Italians were not as indoctrinated as the Germans and Japanese, then yes, I agree with you, and I take it as a great compliment. If you mean that Italians surrendered en masse, as asserted by the worst British propaganda, then I say no, at least not until September 8th, 1943. However, I would like to see how many of these criticians from their comfortable sofas would handle a dramatic situation, without any orders or information, when they find themselves in enemy territory with allies who suddenly become enemies. But this was the responsibility of the high command, not the soldiers, who behaved admirably, especially in dramatic situations like the retreat from Russia and the campaign in Africa. Incidentally, I find the performance of Germany much more horrible and, on a large scale, objectively a failure. If we really look into the details, Germany held out as long as everything followed the Blitzkrieg plan. The strategies of the Wehrmacht and the German industrial plans started to fall apart as soon as the first unforeseen events appeared on the horizon, which, as we all know, the obtuse German mentality is utterly incapable of managing. On the fact that unfortunately many young lives were sacrificed for Mussolini's ambition, I agree with you.
As I recall the Italians had been placed between the Romanian and Hungarian forces because the two didnt get along very well. They all fought well, but they just didnt have the equipment to stand up against the Soviet armor.
Yep, pretty much
Well,I doubt that understrenght 8th Italian army with an German infantry corps with only 2 divisions and weak panzer division could have stopped 2 Soviet armies with 4 tank corps in support for long,even with river Don as a defense.
my grandfather was among those poor soldier retreating❤
My grandfather (extacltly same name as mine) died there. He was a captain of the Royal Carabinieri, but was under the command of the Corpo d’Armata Alpino.
He had skills for languages, so he quickly learned some russian and ukranian from soviet prisoners.
Despite being slighty wounded, he s been sent by his command to the soviets who encircled the alpini at Valuijki in 1943 to manage the surrender.
He died soon after in a soviet Prisoners camp for the harsh conditions and the infection of his injury
There is Italian-Soviet movie from 1964,Italiani brava gente which deals with Italian 8th army in Russia all the way to it's effective destruction in December of 1942.Watched US dub of it,was quite saddened by the tragic end of many of them in Russian winter steps.Seems like parts of the movie were given omage in German "Stalingrad" grom 1993.
In 1997-1998 I did my military service in Merano in the Tridentina Alpine Brigade and I had already heard many of these war memories then but I didn't imagine that one day history buffs from the United States or the United Kingdom would find these events interesting.
I congratulate you!
watching this on the 15/12/2022 while rememebring the sacrifice of our troops on the river Don front. Maybe most of the Italians have forgotten about this but there is still a few of us who haven't!
This is an excellent "research capsule" on an important facet of the historic disaster that Stalingrad was, conveying the misery of defeat and retreat. Really an invaluable piece here, since many people don't realize that Mussolini had sent large military formations to the front, nor are aware of the fighting qualities of some units at least, nor of the presence of troops from other nations (like from Hungary and Romania), nor of Operation Little Saturn, which really placed the Axis forces across a wide front along the Don in a bad place.
This was timely to catch (just realized this came out a year ago) since I just finished the recent Osprey Publishing piece on "Stalingrad 1942-43 (3): Catastrophe: the Death of 6th Army" by Robert Forczyk.
Some interesting points:
- Generaloberst Maximilian von Wieches, commander of Heeresgruppe B since July 1942 - "Once it became obvious that 6. Armee could not complete the conquest of Stalingrad prior to the onset of winter weather, von Weichs became increasingly apprehensive about the threat of a Soviet counter offensive against his army group's extended front along the Don"
- General de armata Petre I. Dumitrescu, commander of Romanian Third Army since March 1941 - "Third Army was shifted to support Heeresgruppe B's defence along the Don River in early October. Dumitrescu recognized that this was a dangerously vulnerable sector and recommended that the Soviet bridgeheads over the Don should be eliminated, but he was ignored by von Weichs" (seems like an odd contradiction there).
- "German reconnaissance completely failed to detect the presence of 5th Tank Army near the Don bridgeheads."
- Oberst Reinhard Gehlen's Fremde Heere Ost - Gehlen "assumed that since earlier Soviet counter-offensives against 6.Armee had been contained, any future enemy offensive could also be repulsed."
- "Hitler was not blind to the possibility that the Soviets might attempt to attack the Romanian-held sectors. At one of his daily conferences at the Werwolf in Vinnitsa on 26 October, Hitler directed that three divisions in France, including the rebuilt 6.Panzer-Division, should be sent to reinforce the Romanian sector. However, the OKH staff did not make this a priority and the divisions did not arrive until after Operation Uranus had begun."
- "The primary target of Little Saturn was General Italo Gariboldi's Eight Italian Army, which was defending a 125km-wide sector along the Don."
- "By the end of 19 December, the Italian Eighth army was disintegrating, with most of its units falling back in disorder. Only the Italian Alpini Corps remained solid."
The reason for presenting these points is to demonstrate how the fortunes of war and mismanagement by the Germans of the campaign created a disaster waiting to happen, for a all those Italian, Romanian and Hungarian soldiers, which is little known today. By November the Germans had failed to capture the oil fields, or all of Stalingrad; and were over-extended, facing numerically superior Soviet forces, with winter approaching. Just incredible that appropriate changes in strategy were not quickly made. Romanians would suffer over 160,000 casualties, while the Italians suffered about 114,000 casualties (I assume during Operation Little Saturn, but maybe also during Operation Uranus?).
So very nice, informative video. Greatly enjoyed it.
Really good episode! The Italians (across all fronts) really don't get enough coverage
Thanks, we will revisit the subject for sure
Not a single motorized vehicle in that one first picture ,that's a hardcore retreat,imagine the poor bastards who remained in the trenches to give them proper time to retreat ,the ones who stayed behind if any at all made it back would of been by miracle
This photo is nothing but despair. There is one common thread that runs through time. Soldiers are always getting the short end of the stick.
Sharp end of a sword
Grazie. Un racconto ben fatto, una comprensione esatta. I nostri poveri soldati, mandati a combattere ed a morire, con un equipaggiamento miserabile, un armamento inefficiente ed anche poco cibo. Ancora grazie per il buon lavoro.
Great presentation on a subject I am just now getting into.
Reminds me of the French retreat from Russia in the Napoleonic Wars. This retreat combined with the defeat in North Africa to months later had to make those who knew the reality of the war wonder what they were doing in the war. Thanks, Woody
Two excellent books on this subject to read are: "Mussolini's War in the East 1941-1943”, by Patrick Cloutier, and “Mussolini’s Eastern Crusade”, Italian Expeditionary Corps in Operation Barbarossa by Marek Sobski.
Excellent photography and narration. Learned a lot - as usual on WW2TV channel.
The first Don battle, August 1942, showed that Armir was a frontal screen allowing the rear German units to group and prepare to target the main offensive points. They stayed on the spot while the Germans decided what to do to stop the winter offensive.
Would be very interested if you had a show with Neil and the ARMIR
Paul/Neil,
A great little presentation! I have read all the books that were mention which brings home the horrors of the Russian campaign. The Italian soldiers fought bravely with the outdated equipment you mentioned!
Regards,
Bob
I had an uncle who was a bersagliere fighting at El Alamein. He told me that not only was their equipment inferior and not fit to work in the desert, but their supplies were either inadequate or nonexistent. My uncle told me about one of the few oil tankers that arrived from Naples. The gasoline had been stolen and replaced with mostly water with a few centimeters of gasoline floating on top. Conclusion: They had no gasoline and the water was so tainted as to be undrinkable. These soldiers had zero chances and had been sent to die for no reason. My uncle told me that he was the only survivor of his unit to make it back to Italy.
TY 🙏🙏
Grazie, thanks to cover this piece of history. Here in the Nord almost every little town had someone who had to come back from Russia on foot, in my town there was one famous for bring some young lads that were injured and left behind, unfortunately at the moment i don't recall his name. Even years after the emd of the world he kept crying for all the boys he couldn't save and keep repeat "avrei dovuto salvarne di più" i should save more.
One famous story about him was about the time when he saw an officer that was faking to be injured to stay on the mule and don't walk, He took his rifle and whit the bottom of the rifle he smash the officer down from the mule. I honestly think that probably he shoot him but that is my opinion.
Thanks, for this video/ story. I'd like to see more about the Hungarian and Italian armies in WW2 that do not get a lot of attention in popular culture to do with the war. What about the forces fighting Tito in Yugoslavia that were Italian in that arena, fighting with the Axis. Looking forward to your next video.
Once Little Saturn occupied the storage magazines, no fuel was available for trucks or tanks. They were left on the front line at the beginning of the retreat. Germans had abundant horse power, Italian trucks. The Germans retreat was easier.
PW..thanks for providing all of this information. I had no idea of the Italian participation in Stalingrad....fantastic!
Thanks Craig
La, storia, la, scrivonono, gli uomini di qualunque nazionalit
À onore, e, rispetto, gudbay,
mani in alto!
top down organisation
The Little Saturn offensive targeted and easily destroyed the VIII army command centre, communication equipment (radio stations) and the storage magazines (fuel, etc.), air fields, by mid December - Christmas. No measures had been made to protect the rear services, infrastructure, command system. No measure had been established to protect the rear services, as if the command was not part of the army.
The Divisional manpower concentrated on the front (river, hills) and since Little Saturn (?) had no organic links with the army command. That didn't care to protect itsself.
No high level command existed anymore. The retreat started witout any high level command coordinating it.
The infantry left its winter shelters at the end of December, the mountain troops in the second half of January.
Divisions and lower level units coalesced into three main human masses little by little, with pockets of organised battalions and platoons.
El Alamein and the retreat from Italian Libya might have come just a teensy bit earlier than Operation (“Little”) Saturn, but you don’t sell as many books saying, “this is the story of something that helped make Mussolini unpopular” as by saying, “this is the story of the retreat that brought down Italian Fascism”.
No fuel, no motor vehicles.
Airlifted supplies to stalingrad pitifully small that was the problem
Which we talk about here ua-cam.com/users/liveuG5vqvV4WSg?si=L7IwT7KEYjVdWxfx
The picture at 6:42 is just as interesting. The horse-drawn sleds and a cow in the lower right; a walking food container.
I assume this picture was taken by an Italian Officer, who was fortunate enough to have made it back home to Italy. Not many of these men returned home. Enforced Russian starvation on the POW's killed more AXIS soldiers than Russian bullets and canons. Does anyone know the identity of the picture taker? Can anyone explain why the "War Crimes" committed by the Russians against Italian, German, and Rumanian POW's was "never" properly investigated and brought to the public? War Crimes seems to have went in only one direction. Some of the most brutal, sadistic acts of barbarism was inflicted on POW's held by the Russians.
Of the 229.000 soldiers sent to Russia, just 114.000 returned home.
Soviets captured around 70.000 soldiers of which only 10.000 survived their imprisonment (mostly because Soviets had no means to keep them and their soldiers just continued to beat the prisoners)(germans was treated worst, due to their ferocity during the war against soviet prisoners, when the situation turned the parts, soviets just shoot on the spot every german found. Italians that instead treated prisoners with dignity and sharing even their little food and shelter with the soviet prisoners, was just left alive. But without any help).
The Alpini alone, two divisions and half, all at minimum strenght, was able to collect the stranded and survivors of the Axis armies, put them togheter and marching home.
For 11 times during Operation Little Saturn, the Soviet tried to encircle the Alpini column and beat them but they was always pushed back.
At the eleventh and last battle, at Nikolajevka, the soviets was once again pushed back and then they gave up on trying to stop the Alpini from flee Russia.
I remind you that Operation Little Saturn counted 1.5 million men and thousands of tanks and artillery pieces. But they was pointless in trying to stop a mass of broken Italian Alpini from marching away.
Thousands of Germans, Romeni, Hungarians have to thanks the Italians for having survived that terrible moment. While the German armies left everyone behind, the Italians took them all at home mostly alive.
Even the Soviets should have had to thanks them since the Italians never harmed their prisoners, unlikely what the Germans did.
Even during the retreat then, during soviet advances, despite the fact our men had basically nothing to stop them, the Germans pretended them to do that. And if unable to stand, they accused our men of being traitors.
With allies like that, no one needs enemies.
Same in Africa where Rommel was put on the lead of the whole campaign, he elongated the logistic lines of the front to a point where it was almost impossible to control the front and having decent supplies.
Our generals was busy fixing any problems and filling any gaps in the "mighty plans of most genius general Rommel" that they was labelled as "incompetents". But who put them in such situation?
And who wasn't there when the British pushed back at El Alamein, when the german forces was retreating instead of defending the line? The Ariete armored division last stand at El Alamein togheter with the Lions of the Desert of the Folgore division sacrificed themselves in order to grant the germans time to run away in that so efficient way typical of the german tribal barbarians.
You can clearly see who was born from the Empire and who was born from barbarians.
Poor equipment , Poor leadership , that was the situation the Italian force found themself into . My Father served in the Regia Aeronautica ( Italian Air Force ) ,based in Russia and Ukraine .1942/43 .
Messe lead the Italian Army in Russia and was by far, there best general. However, they pulled him out before the winter to try and save the Tunisian debacle.
@@marccru Messe was probably one of the best generals of the whole war. With what he had at hand and the orders received, he definitely made miracles.
Definitely superior to Rommel. At the same level of Von Manstein.
The alpine units would of been better used in the Caucasus mountain campaign and replaced by the ss divisions who were not equipped for mountain warfare which the alpine soldiers were trained for or better used as patisan fighters in the mountains of the balkans and had those german soldiers dedicated there to cover the flank
How many were sent to Russia , and how many survived ?
I thought we said how many in the video
235,OOO sent . 80'000 never returned .One of the lucky one that did retured was my Father . In his returned , September of 1943 he joined the Italian Partisan till April of 1945 . From one hellhole to another hellhole .
Same with the Romanians on the flanks
Werent there Slovak troops there also? how about croatian troops?
There were certainly Romanians, Slovaks and Croatians in varying numbers yes
There is nothing wrong with retreat for survival!! Will be stupid to fight a lost war
fantastic presentation but the axis invaded the soviet union, not "russia" . . . . . . . of which the russian sfsr was part of
Those who sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.
Tell that to baltic states,finland romania, half of Poland,learn a bit of history mate!
Explain please createdeccentricities6620
Interesting and informative. Excellent photography job enabling viewers to better understand what the orator was describing. Class A research project. The conscripted Italian solider had little enthusiasm. Being in the armed forces. Poorly equipped/fed/paid & the likes. Leads to poor performance/low morale.
No motor vechiles i trust their pizzas were better 😂
Trucks with guns, food and ammunitions had to be abandoned at the beginning of the retreat, because German logistics (who should) didn’t supply fuel (mostly diesel, while Germans motors mostly used gasoline)
These cliches are getting boring !
Vittorio pataccoli classe 1919 abbandonato a rada 188 tambov dalla patria ad aprile 43
Noi senza averlo conosciuto non l abbiamo mai dimenticato
OMG!!! My dad was there. He told us of finding the mushrooms which is also told in Corti's book. He was riding a horse and 2 Germans came along and made him get off. One shot at him but only got the bottom of his coat. The other German asked him why he did that and they rode off. Later, my dad was the driver of a horse pulled wagon of wounded. They were captured and a guard posted. He talks about being in a valley or ravine with the battle raging overhead. The guard got scared and was going to shoot them and run away. My dad talked him out of it and the guard just left. My dad got a medal for this. In Corti's book he talks about how the northern troops despised the southern troops, esp. Sicilians. My dad made it back to Sicily with both the Allies and Germans shooting at his boat, hiding for a year in Rome after the allies captured it. Where can is there more information on this? I can't thank you enough for doing this.
I'm not sure where to find out more on this. Neil Lawrence is contactable on Facebook
The hatred of the Northern Europeans for the Southern Europeans goes back a long way. It may have started with Ancient Roman times, but kicked into high gear with the Protestant Martin Luther's break from the Catholic Church. I've got ancestors from north, south, western and eastern Europe so I certainly have a unique look on it all.
Yep. My dad was there too. Based on his accounts of what he experienced there, I could write a book to rival "Gone With the Wind" in its scope, human struggle, hope, love and desperation. But I digress. I can confirm that he also recounted many instances of discrimination, antagonism and conflict between soldiers of the north and south of Italy.....until the "5h1t got real" and then mostly everyone got on.