Support Ukraine: u24.gov.ua/ Join the TimeGhost Army bit.ly/ICU_05_PI here’s why: Humanity has throughout its history learnt the lessons from both its successes and failures on the past. Those lessons are in part enshrined in the founding charter of the United Nations, produced during one of the darkest moments of our species. We continue to hold that charter dear, perhaps precisely because we know what happened for it to finally be written, and that is why we continue producing historical videos that we hope will inform the world as to the importance of preserving democracy, freedom, and human rights. Read our community guidelines before commenting: community.timeghost.tv/t/rules-of-conduct/4518 Sources: Paul Magocsi, A History of Ukraine (University of Toronto Press, 1996). Timothy Snyder, The Reconstruction of Nations: Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, 1569-1999 (Yale University Press, 2003). Orest Subtelny, Ukraine: A History (University of Toronto Press, 2000) Danylo Statsenko, Word and name Ukraine: from the Kyiv Chronicle to Bohdan Khmelnytsky, (Istorychna Pravda, 2021) Antonovych V. My confession: Selected historical and journalistic works (Lybid, 1995) Ivan Franko, Ukraina Irredenta (Life and Word, 1895) Ewa Thompson, Imperial Knowledge: Russian Literature and Colonialism (Greenwood Press, 2000) Ivan Dziuba, RUSSIFICATION in the Ukrainian context (Encyclopedia Of History Of Ukraine) Natalia Yakovenko Essay On The History Of Ukraine From Ancient Times To The End Of The Eighteenth Century (Genesis, 1997)
@@pattygman4675Since XVI century there was few Cossack's states between Poland-Lithuania and Russia, with the most known "Zaporozhian Sich". But they were always dependent on their neighbors. Cossacks were very proud and freedom-loving people, so that caused also many uprisings during especially XVII century.
Hi guys, I'm Roman - we met in Lviv when you were filming the Great War. I'm in Kyiv right now and very eager to help you with the coverage of this whole thing. I have a lot of insights into whats going on and both Ukrainian and Russian context. Please contact me if you're interested.
I'm ukrainian. Never really cared about the country since I lived my whole life in lebanon. But since the war I really wanted to understand the history behind it all. Thank you so much this was really a very informative video
@@michelmurr1949 That must be "fun" living in Lebanon these days. In fact, I don't think it has been much "fun" living in Lebanon for a very long time. Is there any kind of functioning government there these days, or is it the usual gaggle of gangsters and thugs getting together to divide the spoils?
My great-grandparents were "Austrian Ruthenes", as the ship roster says, born in Galicia. My grandmother was born in the diaspora, and her first language was Ukrainian, which she did not pass down to her children. Despite this, she was always outspoken about our specifically Ukrainian ancestral identity. For the past three years, I have been studying the language, and the history and culture is woven into it. I have been a viewer lf yours since you launched "the Great War" channel and cannot, in either language, express how I am grateful to you for giving my fellow anglophones a way to view the many-faceted jewel of Ukrainian history.
@@theblackbear211 I do not. They sailed from Trieste to New York and the roster places their home at "Kaminka, Galicia," a village I cannot locate by searching online, but may be Kam'yanka-Buzka, near Lviv. Their names are spelled with Polish orthography, so I don't know whether that may misrepresent their hometown's name. One 1940 document places my great-grandparents' birthplace in "Checko-Slovakia," so I believe someone was mistaken, or they were from around Zakarpattiya, maybe near Skole. My research skills have led me this far, but plenty more questions continue to come up, which keeps me learning the language to improve my research skills.
@Kevlar Thank you so much for your kind words, dedication, and sharing about your grandmother. Stories like yours bring a depth of humanity and discussion to our videos that can't be found anywhere else. I wish you & your family well. 🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦
@@Kevinism I completely understand. My grandparent's wrote out short "life stories" before they passed away in the 1960's. They emigrated from Galicia to Canada in 1904/05 - where the were married, homesteaded a farm ,and raised 12 children. I have my Grandmother's letter handy - it was hand written in Ukrainian, and I have a typewritten translation by one of my uncles - that includes some of the explanations between words ie: Halychyna = Galicia. But even with the village and district names, I'm not entirely sure of being exact when looking at a modern map - with modern spellings - because of course, the Cyrillic is all hand written, and converting Cyrillic to English spellings has not been consistent over the years. But I believe they were from a small village NNE of Lviv.
An amusing note: the Russian attack along the western approaches to Kyiv has been stopped by the Stalin Defense Line. There's a network of pillboxes and bunkers, connected by tunnels, which were used against the Germans during the last war. The Ukranians started repairing them months ago, and they're in good enough shape to do the job again.
@@SonsOfLorgar My nation is more natural than yours, let's have a war! Oh wait, nevermind I'm expecting a package that I have to sign for. 🤷🏻♂️ Maybe next week? I'll pencil you in and then have my people call your people.
It seems to me there are two things necessary for a nation to exist: the people must think of themselves as a nation, but also, the neighbors must accept this as well (or be made to accept this). This can make it hard for a people who want to be a nation but are blocked from it. Possibly the most recent nationality to emerge is the North Macedonians, and they've had to fight every inch of the way against Serbia, Greece, and Bulgaria. Looked at this way, what Putin wants to do is strangle Ukrainian nationhood by denying it recognition, then absorb it into Russia. Pretty clearly, the Ukrainians think of themselves as a nation--they're proving that the hard way, day by day (and being oppressed by belligerent neighbors is an excellent nation-building exercise). But sometimes, heroic resistance isn't enough, as the Welsh might testify. Or the Provençals. Or the Sioux, for that matter. Though note, in two of those three cases the people still think of themselves as a nation, so their cause isn't dead yet. Overall, I don't think Putin can manage to extinguish Ukrainian nationhood now, since he's roused all of Ukraine's neighbors to a robust defense of the country, and united the Ukrainians as never before.
A North Macedonia episode would be great. One thing about it I find quite intellectually dishonest is how Bulgaria treats its past in regard to North Macedonia. It kinda goes like this : Bulgaria : Once upon a time we were all bulgars, please recognize that North Macedonia : So that means that all Bulgar figures in what is now our country are also North Macedonians, we can also have them as our national heroes and national history? Bulgaria : Nope. It's all like refusing to acknowledge that cultures can diverge and create new ones over time, else we'd still have the same people and languages as in 4000 BC.
@@skaldlouiscyphre2453 There is one big misconception about all the Greek-North Macedonian dispute. When the idea of a Macedonian national identity started to flourish, Macedonia was all part of the Ottoman Empire as a single united region from Skopje to Thessanoliki (in what is now the heart of Macedonian Greece). So proponents of Macedonian nationalism where all over Macedonia, using figures of Macedonian past. But there were imperial claims by both Greece and Bulgaria over the region, who used large amounts of money to finance schools and propaganda to have Macedonia become a part of them and have the local population identity change to be Greek/Bulgarian. They got what they wished : in following decades, the heavily greek-influenced area got to become a part of Greece and same with Bulgaria, while what was left still clinged on the old dream of distinct macedonian nationalism even as the main cultural and historical figures they based their identity on was no more in their borders. In a nutshell, North Macedonia pulled a Obi-Wan and said to former Ottoman Macedonia: "you were supposed to be independant, not join them!". It's even part of the dispute with Bulgaria who wants North Macedonia to stop considering itself as an ethnicity so as to stop considering their bulgarized Macedonia as part of their national homeland.
The great question is always "what unites the people". In feudal systems it was of no importance which ethnicity the people had when they were unified by belief and a ruling house. What unifies people is always depended on things people deemed important at a certain time. Language based borders can create totally different states for example.
Greece had no problem with North Macedonian statehood or its people's will for self determination. Greece's objection was the use of Hellenic symbols by a Slavic nation and civilization.
According to my Balkan-specialised professor on uni (Polish) both Greek and Macedonian historiography has some of the wildest claims, by international standards, when it comes to Macedonia. And warned us to not ever mention this topic with either Greeks or Macedonians, or we will never hear the end of it.
Putin was apparently too busy reading such "brilliant thinkers" as Ivan Ilyin and Aleksandr Dugin. One need look no further than the Ukrainian anthem - _Shche ne vmerla Ukrainy i slava, i volia_ (written in 1862) to see the modern idea of the Ukrainian nation already developed. BTW said song seemingly took some inspiration from the song that eventually became the Polish national anthem (written in 1797) but that doesn't diminish it in any way, in my opinion. The influence of the Polish independence movement on the Ukrainian one is an interesting topic, especially 1863-1864 January Uprising, the leaders of which were looking back to the idea of the triple Polish-Lithuanian-Ruthenian Commonwealth, first postulated by the Treaty of Hadiach (1658) - a failed attempt to reconcile the Cossack Hetmanate with the PLC. The January Uprising is even more important for the Belarusian national movement - it's not a coincidence that a Belarusian volunteer unit, currently fighting for Ukraine, is named after one of its leaders - Kastuś Kalinoŭski (Konstanty Kalinowski).
This has been the most comprehensive debunking of Putin's Lie of Ukrainian Illegitimacy I have yet seen. Thank you TimeGhost Team - Your work is now History itself.
I'm not sure if he himself really believes in what he is saying or if it is just deliberate misinformation. Since: Of course Ukraine IS a legitimate country. But only as long as it's citizens themselves believe so and are ready to defend it. Therefore the things that he is spewing out could and probably should be understood as simple propaganda and misinformation in order to reduce the ukrainian defence against russian annexations. But to me it seems as though his actions misfired and he is rather deepening the divide and even alienating ukrainian people who felt "Russian".
@@goranatanasovski6463 I'm, like, 90% sure that Putin is completely aware that he is lying through his teeth on this Issue. This is a deliberate attempt at misinformation on his part in order to justify his War.
It would have been nice to see some analysis from a historical perspective regarding Putin's claim, that ukraine was "gifted" territory by russian czars, and soviet leaders such as Khrushchev. Interested to hear if these arguments have any legs to stand on.
Of tremendous significance is that Poland recognizes, accepts, and supports Ukrainian independence. But then, Poland has a history of fighting for democratic freedoms at home and abroad.
The important thing, frankly, is that even if Ukraine was "made up" by Lenin.... so what? That doesn't mean Putin just gets to invade Ukraine. I think the fact that the people of Ukraine are fighting back dispels the idea that Ukraine is "made up" in the way Putin claims it is.
Well, nope... Despite what Putin may say, he may forge history, but Yeltsin, previous head of state, already accept Ukraine as sovereign nation. Putin may claim historical there and that, but there bilateral agreements, which he can't erase.
@@shawnkennedy855 Sure the west or Biden to be specific seen Ukraine as a puppet state to provoke Russia, so? Do you suggest that Ukraine is a creation of the west to harm Russia and all the living people in Ukraine are brainwashed to hate Russia. Wait why not the opposite? Why the east didn't brainwashed all the people lived to Russia to obey Putin? What excuse did Russia have for existence? Why Russia isn't puppet of the east?
@@shawnkennedy855 I agree you didn't write, but you mean it or you don't think word "puppet State" is insulting and more so strip Ukraine Independence and part of Russian Propaganda. It not like the leader of NATO give order to Zelenskyy to stay on the ground slow down the russian. Of course, in strategic matter, Ukraine is the west first line of defense, but the relationship between the west and Ukraine are mutual - the west support Ukraine Independence, while you weaker the russian or to be more precise, keep the Russian ego at low level, as I don't see any political or economical gains.
@@shawnkennedy855 I mean it's bs and you know it. "Always accepted" yea sure, for everyone to see yea sure. But in reality he just wants it to be his other arm like Belarus is. Look at Belarus, that is how Putin expected Ukraine to be. And it's not happening, Putin threw away Russia's future its kind of insane. All for lil' old Ukraine. People used to consider Russia our near-peers now they really just goofy.
We know that Ukraine exist now let's say that Ukraine is invented country for metaphoric purposes it still doesent justify bombing hospitals schools residential buildings killing citizens this whole war is absolute genocide.
The first mention of the word Ukraine was in 1187 (40 yeaes after the creation of Moscow btw). The word Vkrayina was used to refur to the land of roughly modern Ukraine (specifically the regilns around Kyiv and Chernihiv). The idea that Ukraine means borderland is a Russian imperialist myth. Kryi means edge, however kryina means land (today it also means country in Ukrainian). It can be translated literally as "edged object" (kryi also means pice of something). V or U (oo in Ukrainian) means "in". So Vkrayina or ookrayina (the native pronunciation of Ukraine) can be translated as literaly "in country or in land", and is hypothisised to have meant "our land" in the Kyiv dilects of east slavic. It is a helarious Kremlin myth to imagine that the heartland of Kyiven Rus (it's literally in the name) was called "borderland".
An important bit to mention also is, that when the USSR fell apart there was a referendum held in all parts of Ukraine, and in each part over 90% of the populace voted to become an independent Ukrainian nation(including Donbas etc). So the vast majority of the populace voted to be an independent country. How could anyone claim them to be anything else.
I'm actually astonished that you hit all the marks in the main Ukrainian history. More foreigners need to watch this video to understand that our nationhood has begun much earlier than in 1991 or even in 1917. Also, it's great that you mention that Ukrainian (then Ruthenian) intellectuals had actually helped Peter I to shape newly formed Russian empire. Most of them were alumni of Kyiv Mohyla Academy which was the main (and one of the few, but all in Ukraine) orthodox educational institutions in Eastern Europe. One of them was Theophan Prokopovich who presumably advised Peter to rename Muscovy to Russia (Rossiya) which was the greek name for Rus. Thus claiming the Rus heritage that Moscow has very little in common with by that time. The reasons to do so of people like Theophan is still debated to this day, but most likely, they’re very pragmatic. It’s easier to associate yourself with a new and emerging power that Muscovy was starting to become. And every new Empire needs a proper myth starting as earlier as possible. Meanwhile the parts of modern day Ukraine and Belarus under the Commonwealth were considered Rus land or Ruthenia (just a Latin name of Rus). Moreover, the area near Lviv was called Ruthenian Voivodeship up until the end of 18th century. So, if you bear this in mind, it’s just another proof that Ukrainian history starts from Rus period and that Rus period is not about todays Russia. They can claim their Novgorod heritage of course (although Ivan the Terrible made everything possible to erase it), but everything that happened around Kyiv was part of Ruthenia and thus Ukraine. And almost everything happend in Kyiv and Chernihiv at the height of Rus state. Also, just google Kingdom of Ruthenia, you'll be quite delighted as well. But ofc every russian will go wild because they truly think that Volodymyr the Great can be considered modern ‘russian’ but when we say, he can be Ukrainian they laugh. But we don’t care, this war has helped us embrace out true history and meaning.
>But ofc every russian will go wild because they truly think that Volodymyr the Great can be considered modern ‘russian’ but when we say, he can be Ukrainian they laugh. But we don’t care, this war has helped us embrace out true history and meaning. Nope, not every Russian will go wild, I won't. I would agree with the comment above that Volodymyr the Great is neither Russian nor Ukrainian but something else. Alternative points of view are also perfectly valid and can be a subject for a friendly debate. In no circumstances attachment of nationality tags to historical personalities or events can be a justification for an aggression. I'm sorry for what Putin does to Ukraine, нет войне.
The Novgorod republic was in a big part Finnish. Quite o lot of the letopisi found ( writings at birch bark ) were written in some form of finnish language.
A great job as always! A wealth of information that deserves a re-watch. I grew up in the cold war USA and it seems like all my history has been "that is the USSR over there" and that was it. Such a long and gripping history. Even their name "Ukraine" or borderlands, is a big part of their national identity. It seems to me that they were a melting pot of different cultures of surrounding empires to create their unique culture of today. I can not wait for your next episode! You and your team have done it again! Thank you!
@@pavlosegeda8294 Thank you for your thoughts. Could you clarify the translation for me? I do not speak Russian or Ukrainian so I must trust others for translation. I had also heard that it means edge country or land on the edge. Kind of a unique perspective considering that Kyiv was a major city center before Moscow was even a village or a wide spot in the road. Thanks again for your response!
@@daleeladakus1966 It's complicated. I'm not linguist, so my explanations based on modern Ukrainian. Word 'край/krai' could mean edge of something or part of the country. So Russians claimed all time that it's mean borderland. BUT. There is always but ^) Word 'країна/kraina' have only one meaning - country. As you pointed it's strange that mainland of Rus would be called borderland. So "Україна/Вкраїна" can be literally translated as 'in our land/country'. For me it's more logical.
@@pavlosegeda8294 Nice, thank you so much for clarifying. Your interpretation of the meaning of "the ukraines" makes more sense to me. If I understand you right Russia was trying to rewrite history even back then. Thanks again!
Thank you for the interesting episode. Two things I would add to the discussion. 1. "Ukraine" is not considered to be coming from the word "borderland", in Ukrainian historiography, or by Ukrainians themselves. Instead, it is believed to come from Ruthenians - later Ukrainians - saying that they live "in a country" or "U kraini". Indeed, it would be weird for them to say they live in a borderlands with a capital of Rus being in Kyiv. "Borderlands" is a narrative that was mixed in by the russian historians to justify that "this is just borderlands of the russian empire". They use this narrative up to this day, mispronouncing Ukraina in exactly the way to show that it comes from the word borderlands. 2. Pereiaslav Agreement from Cossack point of view was to be mainly a military alliance with russia, similar to the one they had previously had with Crimean Tatars. Obviously russia had other ideas and used it to have a legal claim on Ukrainian lands. Mainly because of this maltreatment Cossacks allied with Swedes to break away from russia in the Northern war under Iwan Mazepa, hero for Ukrainians and "Archtraitor" for russians.
If I remember my history classes right, we were taught about a theory that Pereyasliv Agreement that Khmelnitsky brought to Russia was not the same document that was signed by the tsar. The Russians took it for "assessment" or "safekeeping", and then re-wrote them more to their liking. Which in turn caused Khmelnitsky to die of heart attack soon after he found out.
Interesting topic from etymological point of view but krajina does mean borderland in most Slavic languages. The Germanic equivalent is mark (march in English). So Ukrajina means literally "On the frontier". But still, when locals adopt these names, the word mark/kraj(ina) gets also meaning of just country or region, like in Denmark, although for the Danes their country is very much in the middle, or Russian administrative units called krajs. Remember that historically Ukraine is not just frontier of Russia but also Poland, Lithuania, Ottoman Empire, Byzantium etc. There have been multiple Slavic people to whom the area of Ukraine has always been on the border of something, so there's the influence.
@@Eppu_Paranormaali Which languages would that be? Not Ukrainian, not Polish and not Belarusian. Unless you count Russian as "most" Slavic languages, the point doesn't really hold.
@@jehovasabettor9080 South Slavic at least. My bad, meant to say used to mean. Obviously its meanings have changed over time in north but that's the origin, just like mark in Scandinavian languages.
When the Great War began, 4 years before the Ukraine was "invented" by Lenin, there were no such countries as Armenia, Egypt, Finland, India, Ireland, Korea, the Philippines, Poland, and Vietnam. 10 years before that, there were no such countries as Mongolia and Norway. 34 years before that, there were no such countries as Australia and Germany. And 10 years before that there, were no such countries as Canada and Italy. Those examples were handpicked to make a point: Who in the West would think to deny the legitimacy of any of these? Go back far enough, and there were no such countries as Russia, the United States and China, either.
Heck, going to dawn of huminty, there wasn't such thing as countries, cites, agriculture... Joke aside, I understand you want to say, every nation are invented and gain legitimacy, by some power or order
The video and the comments make me think of the "invention" of many states....Gandhi's vision of India vs. Jinnah's, vs the centuries old principalities...... to name just one..... Peru and Bolivia Spain and Portugal The British isles..... Canada Norway and other countries that created a common language....
@@ericcarlson3746 India is a perfect illustration of my point, as it's a civilization that goes back millennia but a country that only goes back 3/4 of a century. Even the Mughals, who came closer than anyone before them, never controlled the entirety of the Indian subcontinent - and you could fit whole European countries in the "small" areas that escaped their rule.
@@Stamboul Fitting entire European countries isn’t hard… Look up Monaco, San Marino, Liechtenstein and Andorra as examples… Some of them would comfortably fit inside the city area of New Delhi…
My heart bleeds for my ancestral people Like a nightmare watching the war Each day more atrocities I cannot look away A sense of disbelief Endless grief Fury choked in my breast Daggers in my chest What beauty I once saw Aflame! I know who is to blame! Blackened earth and blood red skies My blood burns listening to Putin's lies Learning that there is no winning a war Simply to survive Keep truth alive
All doubts that Ukraine is a state have been swept away by the tenacious defense they showed and showing against the Russian aggressor. If they were no nation before, they are certainly now.
@@Bufoferrata It's not, because ukrainian nation already existed centuries before Putler was born. It may have been known as Ruthenean or Rusyn, but it's the same nation on the same territory. Putler simply rejected reality and beleived in his own and USSR propaganda.
They may not have been called, or called themselves Ukrainian, but a seperate Nation with its own culture and language has existed in that part of the world since the 1600s. There were just very few times in history that nation was an independent country. It would only pop up for a decade at most and then get absorbed or attacked by the Polish, Germans, Austrians, Ottomans or Muscovites/Russians
All of them over history whether they admit it or not were fighting over the resources from the soils of that area. That whole land is coveted for its rich soil and ability to produce.
The theory that all nation states are historically conditioned entities based in tradition and various dynamic cultural ties is not even that new, even in the former USSR. Funnily, a certain well-known guy named Joe from Georgia said the following about nation-states: "It goes without saying that a nation, like every historical phenomenon, is subject to the law of change, has its history, its beginning and end." If we think of national identity as a historical phenomenon, ironically Putin may have done a great deal to foster Ukrainian national identity, not only among Ukrainian-speakers but many of the Russian speakers in the East of the country that Putin claims to represent (but whose hometowns have now become battlefields).
Germans used to descibe Poland as "season state", while Soviets describing it as"monstrous bastard of Versailles". Nothing new amongst imperial agressors
@@julianshepherd2038 And what exactly was the red army busy with? With the struggle to take over what Russia still had. Poland had the border conflicts with _non-soviet_ states. And those local conflicts would have stayed the only ones Poland had in the east, if Lenin didn't decide to additionally roll in. And here there are some details about these smaller conflicts. Only Western Ukraine was a place Poland had trouble to take, because Ukrainians weren't willing to make it happen. Belarus and Lithuania on the other had... well. Although Belarus announced itself to be a state, it barely had any national self-awareness to the point that there weren't even any military fights when Poland took Western Belarus. As for Lithuania, a huge portion of Lithuania declared itself to be polish, and the local polish units were those who were engaged in the fights against the storming Soviets before Poland's official forces came. Lithuania made the attack on the polish forces, failed... and Poland ignored it, because there was a bigger issue which was the polish-soviet war. Lithuania got this disputed region for the first time only in July 1920. How? Well, the bolsheviks were marching on Warsaw, captured this region along the way, and just gave it to Lithuania "Here, have it. Just don't interrupt our march on Warsaw". Only because of that, Poland decided later to make a military operation against Lithuania to retake the region.
Awesome summary of Ukrainian history! Yes, every country is evolving on the history stage. It isn’t a black and white story. But it is a long struggle for freedom. History is a path to freedom but not a straight one.
The coolest guys on the Internet. Laying down historical facts like concrete. I have been watching/listening to a lot of your videos for the last few days, and I have learnt a lot. Thank you.
As a Russian who is used to seeing heaps of fakes about the history of Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Poland on American channels, I was very fascinated and amazed by your accuracy and knowledge of historical moments. Thanks for the great work.
after i watched that your channel is from germany i understood why you were so good and accurate hahahaha. it wouldn't be possible if you were American haha xd
All the videos you folks make are a goldmine for me, retired at 67 and with a lifetime interest in history. Incredibly researched and excellently presented. Thank you so much!!
Simply brilliant. Historical rigor in a video for broad public consumption. I wouldn't think it possible to make such a comprehensive summary in a 15min video while avoiding sweeping simplifications or being boring. Kudos, guys!
Every episode is a great investment of research, time, and money. We do our best to cover the action of this war every single week and to bring you special episodes regularly, but we can't do it without your support! Join the TimeGhost Army on Patreon and help us to make more of those specials! www.patreon.com/join/timeghosthistory
“Chmelnitsky swears allegiance” is a wrong phrase! It was more military alliance agreement, and Moscovites mostly adhered to it while Chmelnitsky was alive. After he died - it turned in to downright occupation of Hetmanite/Ukraine. This is very important!!!
Great video, though i am a little surprised you did not mention Taras Shevchenko as he is a pretty important figure in the ukrainian sense of nationhood. Maybe if you ever do a video on Ukraine's culture he'll make an appearance.
precision ! Some Soviet republics' borders were drawn in a way to create an inconsistent mix of ethnicities within a same republic. And that was meant to make it harder for nationalist within said republics to unite the whole of the people.
@@jliller Exactly. The "Russian Military History Institute" as they call it is nothing but a tool for him to falsify history. Russians aren't like us westerners who look into the future but they look into the past and find their justification there.
But are those countries doing it now? Name a nation with no skeletons in its closet? I know there are some but majority had some evil in their past, the important thing is acknowledging it and moving away from that behavior. I cannot go steal and say "well so and so stole, so why can't I?"
What constitutes a "Nation" is basically arbitrary, just like "Ethnicity" or any other group. That doesn't mean they don't exist in the context of our world, but sadly too many people take these labels as "Nature"... Live long and prosper.
Thanks for showing my regimental painting of the think red line 93erd regament of foot at the battle of of balaclava . I am a Argyll and Sutherland highlander vetran. Good on ya boys . There a convoy of ex argylls leaving Scotland to supply aid to Ukraine 🇺🇦 this weekend. Sans pur / ne obliscarus
There are only two justification for a sovereign ukraine that matters: 1. The people living there want it that way. 2. The overwhelming majority of them is willing to figth for it. The only question is now how many fire, steel and blood is needed before Putin get it into his head that not everyone has to do what he wants. And it starts to look like his grip on Belarus is not nearly as strong a everyone believed. Overall it seems no one wants to be a part of Wladimirs little russian empire.
In the weeks leading up to the invasion and even for a time after I would have considered myself sympathetic to the Russian position. I saw Putin as a strong leader (in contrast to my own) and a smart man. However, as the war developed and the incompetence of the Russian military was revealed, the treatment of Russians in Russia, and after learning about the history and context of the region (including from you guys at TimeGhost History) my opinion of the situation has pretty much flipped. I can no longer support a man who lies to and oppresses his own people, who bombs hospitals and kills fleeing civilians. Thank you for shedding light on this conflict
The most telling pretext of Putin’s criminal invasion is the lie that his military entered Ukraine to root out Naziism. The lie is revealed in how the Russian military is going about this “rooting out”-by murdering civilians, by destroying every house and building indiscriminately, by targeting fleeing refugees with bombardments. Apparently every Ukrainian citizen is a Nazi. Every brick in every building is a Nazi brick.
@Aditya Chavarkar You think Putin is the only world leader who kills people or silences opposition? And i'm sure that Russia doesn't have the worst income inequality.
"RUSSKA" - The Novel of Russia by the highly acclaimed Edward Rutherford, is a fantastic and beautifully written book I highly recommend for explaining the intertwined pasts of these two similar but uniquely different sovereign countries to the lay historian.
@@stephen9869 I know, I’m curious how the cradle of eastern Slavic civilization KyIv fell to the hands of Muscovy. When Kyiv was well established 100 years before them.
The polish lithuanian Commonwealth in latin is called Res publica utriusque nationis, or the Republic of both nations...I have never understood why it was called republic, even if it was a de facto monarchy. For this reason, when Poland gets independence in 1918, that is called the second republic
That's a good question. Technically after XV century every king was elected by gathering of nobles. And they considered themselves as "nation" (even if it was only around 10% of population) and were really proud of having such role. They had many privilegies and laws protecting their rights (so called "golden freedom"). That's also a reason because of which king in Commonwealth was always relatively weak. In polish historiography this system is called "noble democracy". And, unfortunately, that was one of reasons, why country felt into darkness in XVIII c. Most powerful families had became oligarchs and started to conduct their own politics, often against their own country. Fun fact: after Kosac's uprising in 1658 there was a project of creating "republic of three nations" - with Grand Principality of Ruthenia (Ukraine). It eventually never happened, but symbolic of such country emerged once again during polish/lithuanian uprisings against Russia in XIX century.
Res publica doesn't mean republic here but it is used in its literal meaning here - common things. This is reflected in Polish name which is Rzeczpospolita (rzecz - thing, pospolita - common). This is why the name is translated into English as Commonwealth not Republic. And, even though current Polish state is officially called in English Republic, in Polish it is still Rzeczpospolita (3rd one, the one in between the World Wars was the 2nd).
Very thoughtful presentation with interesting details! Thank you Indi and Spartacus for explaining the origins of Ukrainian national identity. I would like to draw your attention to your claim that west of Dnipro the population was predominantly Catholic. I tend to disagree, maybe you can check your sources again.
That depends on your definition of "Catholic". At that time it was mostly Ukrainian Greek Catholic, which is still technically catholic despite having literally no difference from Orthodox Ukrainians in terms of rites and faith.
At any rate Ukraine has been considered a sovereign nation by other sovereign nations since the wall came down 32 years ago which might not seem like a long time to a 65 year old fart like me but it is a long time to say a 40 year old Ukrainian. And it is in my 1898 encyclopedias.
Indy & Spartacus, thank you for this series. I know all of you at Time Ghost History are dedicated to high quality productions. I appreciate your efforts and welcome this chance to expand my knowledge. Thank you all for the hard work.
This topic brings questions... we have different regions in almost every country, that identify themselves inside the nation they are in. They can have specific culture, dialect can differ very much across one country, to the point that people from one part of country hardly understand people from another part of country. For example, we have region Bavaria in German, Catalonia in Spain, Sicilians in Italy and many more. In USA we have different states, but again all Americans. So how does it happen that one region starts to identify themselves as a separate nation? Does that mean we can expect more nations in the future to come? Ukrainians gain they recognition long time ago, but they had to fight for it, and still it's not always very clear, so it seems they try to distinct themselves even more from Russia, even for the things that they actually have in common. We see this happens all the time through history, some nation gain recognition, some are struggling, some will uprise in the future. And it's almost always very oppressed and violent. It seems like never ending war on earth. Does idea of new nation arises when people from one region are not satisfied with their status inside of their current nation? Great point from this video is that any country can be seen as unnaturally, or natural, depends on point of view from which we are looking at it.
That’s a great question! This doesn’t justify Russia’s war by any means. But To add to your point, when I was visiting Ukraine, I traveled with my family from Kharkiv to go skiing in a Carpathian village. My family from Kharkiv were not able to communicate at all with the family we were staying with. Ironically this war has united all the various ethnicities in Ukraine. Pretty much everyone who considered themselves ethnic Russians a few weeks ago, now identify themselves as Ukrainians. Even if the current borders of Ukraine don’t reflect its historical origin, the fact of the matter is that Russia agreed to them, and it can’t just reshape it because the country is moving in a different political direction. Moreover, if Russia has the right to East Ukraine, then surly many of its own regions like Dagestan and Ingueshetia have a right to their independence, since those people have an even more unique identity?
Geographical and cultural differences are first step to generate a feeling of being "separate" from rest of country/nation. Geographical features can lead to difference in language - pretty much every country that has mountains has difference between language "mountain" and "lowland" people speak. Next thing is closeness to people speaking completely different language - there's still slight difference in my, allegedly homoethnic, country between western and eastern dialects. That's an example how geographical differences can led to cultural differences. Add onto it historical situation, like being ruled by cadet branch of old dynasty, being influenced by influx of foreign migrants (cough, most of Galia being conquered by Franks, cough), change of faith, choosing different creed of certain faith. Different faith and different rulers give Bavaria being "separate" from Hesse. And, of course, being oppressed by majority on the grounds of what makes a certain part of country/nation "separate" from the rest accelerates the process of getting idea if own "nationhood".
@@Mursmurs325 I understand what you are saying, but I didn't mean just about Russia and Ukraine, that's just one example, more in general. Countries are reshaped all the time through history, so there's no universal rule what can be and can not be done. Who has stronger force, he wins. And it seems that it's always because of political views. Even in one country you have different political views, they are constantly opposing each other, and in some situations it rises to a bigger conflict, revolutions, wars... But even if we agree on some rule and apply it to everyone, it seems we will have each city to be independent country, or in the other direction we could end up with one country per continent. But since we don't have a strict rule, we cannot define easily what is nation and what is not, we have to deal with reality that conflicts will happen in the future as they did in the past. There are always two opposed sides and in most of the cases they both have a point and they are both wrong, depends of the perspective of observer. For example if Crimea gets independents, it means that all the territories in similar situation should gain independents. If Ukraine gets Crimea back, that means that all countries should get back their territories which were separated in similar way as Crimea. Also, it doesn't help that all other countries meddle in, and they all take sides based on their own interests, not based on some moral point of view.
Thank you for expressing these thoughts so succinctly and asking great questions. I don't have answers but I appreciate the discussion you've generated.
Just wanted to add a fast comment. I had lived in Alaska for about 6 years and then moved to Washington DC for awhile. Massive culture shock! Like 2 different countries! haha, just wanted to add that!
@Peter Thanks very much for your kind words. The whole team works hard every week and it's nice reading so many thoughtful comments like yours. Stay tuned
I know a few men by the names of Sykes and Picot who might disagree with the more romantic view of how modern nation-states are formed described here. Might be worth including words like "most" or "many" when talking about the will of the people and forming borders and nations.
Between us, and Sykes and Picot there is roughly the equidistant time as between them and the Vienna Conference… so, by your argument we might as well just return to feudal rule of Europe… resurrect the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the Russian Empire. Give Germany back to the Princess as their personal property… abolish nation states and democracy all together 🙄
@@spartacus-olsson That's not the point I was going for, but I see how it wasn't fully clear. I meant that the talk of how and why nations form - around shared cultural identity or some sort of bond - left out entirely nations that were arbitrarily formed on maps by colonialists, which I don't think is fair to all of the people who were boxed into nations whose borders cut right through ethnic, religious, or cultural borders, often being the source of ongoing conflict and struggle.
@@abbottabbott1120 while you are right, the same applies to many of the borders in Europe created in the 19th and 20th Century too. Human culture is not naturally and clearly divided by rivers, mountains, valleys, or any other geography. It’s fuzzy, and a border will _always_ leave some people on the wrong side of the border, on both sides of the border.
Putin's biggest issue with Ukraine and Belarus is that without them 90% of the Kievan Rus' including it's capital and most of it's great cities lie outside Russian territory, maps of the Kievan Rus' notably do not have Moscow on them .... Modern Russia has almost no ties to it's founding myth anymore
Wow.... just wow. So much information in such a compact format.... wow! This Episode is a Masterpiece, a Jewl in the treasury of Work Time Ghost has done over the years.
Man, one big major mistake was your interpretation a Ukraine as "Borderland"... Uhhh, you see, main problem that word Krai in slavic languages can be used in many ways - and Border is just one meaning of them. But as well it meand Realm, or Land. Even nowadays russia uses oficially Krai as name for some regions (Krasnodarsky Krai). By ukranian linguists 'borderlands' is possible interpretation, but persistent use of it by Russian sources for hundreds of years perceived as a way to belittle the role of Ukraine by Moskow biassed historians. Another possible interpretation is У(в) - in, Країна - land/country. So basically, 'Inlands', or 'The Land'/'The Country' Sadly, foreign sources are influenced by Moscow historography and do not consider other interpretations beside 'Borderland' one.
What if BOTH etymologies are correct in the way that name was used in both meanings (by different people), independently and just happen to be essentially the same word? It would explain why this name stuck there so much. I'm not historian though, I'm just guessing.
@@vladprus4019 well, first of all, in russian окраина instead of Украина feels sweary, and derogatory, and often used in that way by russians. The main problem with the "borderland" theory here is that the Ukrainian lands have never been as borderlands really. In the 9th-11th centuries, Rus was a land on the trade route from the Varangians to the Greeks, periodically even playing an important political role in European politics. Too much for something named as, well. basically "Outskirts" Moreover, the Vladimir and Novgorod principalities are was resembling more of "borderlands" than Kievan principalities. So yeah, for ukranians this seen like big overlook on history. Also seen some linguist, he saying that word for 'borderlands' that resembles 'ukraine' appears in historical sources much much after the first 'ukraine' mention. But imo, this doesn't say much because all sources before the 14th century is rather dryly described annals, or religious books that written on old church slavonic, basically - bulgarian
genuinely love you guys so much! you make fantastic videos, you know your stuff and any of your videos are yet to fail to entertain and educate me. keep up the great work guys!!!!
same deal with a certain human poo, trying to declare that the SEA area is historically owned by china but you dont see Han chinese here... only Austronesians...
@@MegaOS_Ver_NEET autocrats gotta autocrat. These regimes need to constantly establish their own legitimacy because their power comes from use of force (soft or hard) and not from the peoples will. 😂
@@quanghuyvo6112 there's a difference between states that are ruled by the will of the people, and states that are ruled by the will of the autocrat. Boiling statehood down to the monopoly of violence is a very simplistic and disingenuous way to look at statehood.
@@lobstereleven4610 the will of the people stop exist when you start let a small group of people decide your fate, is just a bunch of oligarchy with different name, reaf more about the iron law of oligarchy
My great-grandparents emigrated from western Ukraine to the US before 1917. They thought of themselves as Ukrainians, not Russians. They were very proud of their heritage, language, and traditions. They seemed fiercely independent, wanting freedom and were proud to be Ukrainian Americans. They loved this country and its freedom as well as their own unique culture. I think if I understand those we know from Ukraine today today, Ukrainians are desperately trying to maintain their freedom, despite their country’s problems, which is not unlike how many Americans feel today.
This is an amazingly clear and important summary of the history of a nation and it's people. I wish for many a Russian to enjoy it as much as I did. Spread the word! This makes me proud to be a Time-Ghost army member.
I really like this episode but feel you should do the same for Russia. In my readings I have come across how the river cruising Swedish Vikings went do the Moskva river and founded Moscow. They were call Russ and in time the area was call Russia. You guys can do a better job than me. I feel it would tie into the " Made up country " theme.
as far as I know, Moscow wasn't even found or was little settlement at Rus realm (it also wasn't a kingdom nor a nation), it was rise only at the time of Golden Horde, aka the Tatar Yoke.
True Vikings were not really an ethnic group (but they were Norse people, who were/are an ethnic group) and didn't call themselves Vikings. However they were still seafaring people from Scandanavia, regardless of what they were called.
Superb video as always, Ukrainian identity goes as far back as the East Slavs and the Kievan Rus indeed (origins of Russians, Belarussians and Ukranians) and remarkably survived despite centuries of being ruled by Polish-Lithuanians, Austrians and Russians and attempted russification in the last century until the soviet union's collapse although i feel like Putin is clearly talking to his people whenever he speaks about ukraine lately. Man is crazy but man ain't stupid and feel like Zelensky is also somewhat responsible for his people's suffering by not trying to negotiate or concede on some aspects and also trying to shame the leaders, as well as a mix of threats, warnings and pleas to a lot of nations to join him, hope it ends soon so that the suffering of both ukrainian, russian and other ordinary people handling the refugee crisis can stop asap because unfortunately they are always the ones in harms way unlike the guys who deserve to be for rolling the battle dice by putting forward their own people for such sacrifice in all aspects, from life and stress to socioeconimic fronts (which the blockade of russian oligarchs will only empoverish the poor and middle class people from Russia, not to mention the rising oil prices will only empoverish poor and low middle class people around the world)
Civilized countries never negotiate anything with terrorists. Including Putin. When someone is aiming the gun at your head, is there any kind of negotiation still possible?
@@TimeGhost that is true however i highly doubt that is the case (especially prior to Putin's invasion) given what we know if it turns out to be such i will gladly retrieve such statements. And even if Zelensky and his cabinet are naturally inclined to join Nato and EU they could've tried a gradual process instead of just antagonizing russia by speeding up such process and avoiding such bloodshed not to mention that likely ukraine's government didn't held any of the minsk agreement terms (don't think the russians did either, i digress) not to mention his speech lately is highly suspicious by firing on all directions with honey talk like 'we won't join nato now' to russia and ' you are next, come aid our struggle' to israel and so on... Sounds everything like this was avoidable on both sides but then again when have politicians actually genuinely cared about people? That is the problem going on in massive parts of the world not just Ukraine unfortunately. I also feel he's milking the popularity he's gained by being 'the saviour of ukraine' and that also might have a dire direction in the future. Putin's clearly the antagonizer (and NOTHING justifies his invasion) here but likely Zelensky and the US government in which i am deeply disappointed in its newest president) aren't far from such either.
Gallicia is a frustrating for genealogists. People would sometimes identify as being from there on a census or other official records. Since it was never an independent country and political borders have moved around so much it's often hard to tell where the individual was from in modern terms and what their ethnicity was (Polish, Ukrainian, or Hungarian).
Fascinating how rich and complicated Ukrainian history is. I wouldn't mind seeing one of these for Belarus since Putin treats them much the same way and sees them as Russian rather than their own distinct people.
Man Ukrainian identity goes wayyy back, Kievan Rus, Cossacks, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Habsburg Galicia... Out of everything, Lenin seems to be the one with the LEAST to do with Ukrainian identity, let alone “create” it. Read more history, Putin!
Well presented TimeGhost. My understanding is that the Ukrainian nationalism comes as much from the native Ruthenian inhabitants as it does from Cossack traditions. It might also be worth mentioning the primary reason for the rise of the Principality of Moscovy was it's role as a vassal tributary collector for the Golden Horde.
Support Ukraine: u24.gov.ua/
Join the TimeGhost Army bit.ly/ICU_05_PI here’s why:
Humanity has throughout its history learnt the lessons from both its successes and failures on the past. Those lessons are in part enshrined in the founding charter of the United Nations, produced during one of the darkest moments of our species. We continue to hold that charter dear, perhaps precisely because we know what happened for it to finally be written, and that is why we continue producing historical videos that we hope will inform the world as to the importance of preserving democracy, freedom, and human rights.
Read our community guidelines before commenting: community.timeghost.tv/t/rules-of-conduct/4518
Sources:
Paul Magocsi, A History of Ukraine (University of Toronto Press, 1996).
Timothy Snyder, The Reconstruction of Nations: Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, 1569-1999 (Yale University Press, 2003).
Orest Subtelny, Ukraine: A History (University of Toronto Press, 2000)
Danylo Statsenko, Word and name Ukraine: from the Kyiv Chronicle to Bohdan Khmelnytsky, (Istorychna Pravda, 2021)
Antonovych V. My confession: Selected historical and journalistic works (Lybid, 1995)
Ivan Franko, Ukraina Irredenta (Life and Word, 1895)
Ewa Thompson, Imperial Knowledge: Russian Literature and Colonialism (Greenwood Press, 2000)
Ivan Dziuba, RUSSIFICATION in the Ukrainian context (Encyclopedia Of History Of Ukraine)
Natalia Yakovenko Essay On The History Of Ukraine From Ancient Times To The End Of The Eighteenth Century (Genesis, 1997)
Do the Cossack’s ever want a nation of their own? Could it ever happen?
@@pattygman4675Since XVI century there was few Cossack's states between Poland-Lithuania and Russia, with the most known "Zaporozhian Sich". But they were always dependent on their neighbors. Cossacks were very proud and freedom-loving people, so that caused also many uprisings during especially XVII century.
@@pattygman4675
I wish it would....
Hi guys, I'm Roman - we met in Lviv when you were filming the Great War. I'm in Kyiv right now and very eager to help you with the coverage of this whole thing. I have a lot of insights into whats going on and both Ukrainian and Russian context. Please contact me if you're interested.
@Olexandr S I don't know about all that...Oleksandra
I'm ukrainian. Never really cared about the country since I lived my whole life in lebanon. But since the war I really wanted to understand the history behind it all. Thank you so much this was really a very informative video
It is amazing what struggle forces us to see.
Lebanon is a great example of a country that doesn't so much see itself as a nation.
@@BountyFlamor yep i'm a citizen of 2 very unfortunate countries
@Michel Thank you for watching, we're glad you liked the video.
@@michelmurr1949 That must be "fun" living in Lebanon these days. In fact, I don't think it has been much "fun" living in Lebanon for a very long time. Is there any kind of functioning government there these days, or is it the usual gaggle of gangsters and thugs getting together to divide the spoils?
My great-grandparents were "Austrian Ruthenes", as the ship roster says, born in Galicia. My grandmother was born in the diaspora, and her first language was Ukrainian, which she did not pass down to her children. Despite this, she was always outspoken about our specifically Ukrainian ancestral identity. For the past three years, I have been studying the language, and the history and culture is woven into it.
I have been a viewer lf yours since you launched "the Great War" channel and cannot, in either language, express how I am grateful to you for giving my fellow anglophones a way to view the many-faceted jewel of Ukrainian history.
Kevlar, My own grandparents were also from Galicia - or as my grandmother wrote, "Halychyna" do you know which district?
@@theblackbear211 I do not. They sailed from Trieste to New York and the roster places their home at "Kaminka, Galicia," a village I cannot locate by searching online, but may be Kam'yanka-Buzka, near Lviv. Their names are spelled with Polish orthography, so I don't know whether that may misrepresent their hometown's name.
One 1940 document places my great-grandparents' birthplace in "Checko-Slovakia," so I believe someone was mistaken, or they were from around Zakarpattiya, maybe near Skole.
My research skills have led me this far, but plenty more questions continue to come up, which keeps me learning the language to improve my research skills.
@Kevlar Thank you so much for your kind words, dedication, and sharing about your grandmother. Stories like yours bring a depth of humanity and discussion to our videos that can't be found anywhere else. I wish you & your family well. 🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦
@@Kevinism I completely understand. My grandparent's wrote out short "life stories" before they passed away in the 1960's. They emigrated from Galicia to Canada in 1904/05 - where the were married, homesteaded a farm ,and raised 12 children.
I have my Grandmother's letter handy - it was hand written in Ukrainian, and I have a typewritten translation by one of my uncles - that includes some of the explanations between words ie: Halychyna = Galicia.
But even with the village and district names,
I'm not entirely sure of being exact when looking at a modern map - with modern spellings - because of course, the Cyrillic is all hand written, and converting Cyrillic to English spellings has not been consistent over the years. But I believe they were from a small village NNE of Lviv.
Wasn't Ruthenian just another term for Ukrainian?
An amusing note: the Russian attack along the western approaches to Kyiv has been stopped by the Stalin Defense Line. There's a network of pillboxes and bunkers, connected by tunnels, which were used against the Germans during the last war. The Ukranians started repairing them months ago, and they're in good enough shape to do the job again.
Why build a defense line when someone already did that more then 75 years ago
I wonder if Stalin ever imagined that generations later this defensive infrastructure would be used against Russia itself.
@@dant.3505 I doubt he would ever have imagined Russia and Ukraine separated.
Given how paranoid he was, yes.
This is one hell of a well researched video essay. As a Ukrainian, I recommend it to anyone trying to understand Ukrainian national identity
@thePyrotechnist Thanks very much, we appreciate your recommendation.
Slava ukraini!
This "natural/unnatural country" thing surely does apply to my country Lebanon. Thank you TimeGhost History for putting things in their perspective
Thank you for watching.
😬
I mean that description applies to most African and Middle eastern counties honestly
@@pocketmarcy6990 it applies to every single nation that's ever existed
@@SonsOfLorgar My nation is more natural than yours, let's have a war! Oh wait, nevermind I'm expecting a package that I have to sign for. 🤷🏻♂️ Maybe next week? I'll pencil you in and then have my people call your people.
It seems to me there are two things necessary for a nation to exist: the people must think of themselves as a nation, but also, the neighbors must accept this as well (or be made to accept this). This can make it hard for a people who want to be a nation but are blocked from it. Possibly the most recent nationality to emerge is the North Macedonians, and they've had to fight every inch of the way against Serbia, Greece, and Bulgaria.
Looked at this way, what Putin wants to do is strangle Ukrainian nationhood by denying it recognition, then absorb it into Russia. Pretty clearly, the Ukrainians think of themselves as a nation--they're proving that the hard way, day by day (and being oppressed by belligerent neighbors is an excellent nation-building exercise). But sometimes, heroic resistance isn't enough, as the Welsh might testify. Or the Provençals. Or the Sioux, for that matter. Though note, in two of those three cases the people still think of themselves as a nation, so their cause isn't dead yet. Overall, I don't think Putin can manage to extinguish Ukrainian nationhood now, since he's roused all of Ukraine's neighbors to a robust defense of the country, and united the Ukrainians as never before.
A North Macedonia episode would be great. One thing about it I find quite intellectually dishonest is how Bulgaria treats its past in regard to North Macedonia. It kinda goes like this :
Bulgaria : Once upon a time we were all bulgars, please recognize that
North Macedonia : So that means that all Bulgar figures in what is now our country are also North Macedonians, we can also have them as our national heroes and national history?
Bulgaria : Nope.
It's all like refusing to acknowledge that cultures can diverge and create new ones over time, else we'd still have the same people and languages as in 4000 BC.
@@skaldlouiscyphre2453 There is one big misconception about all the Greek-North Macedonian dispute. When the idea of a Macedonian national identity started to flourish, Macedonia was all part of the Ottoman Empire as a single united region from Skopje to Thessanoliki (in what is now the heart of Macedonian Greece). So proponents of Macedonian nationalism where all over Macedonia, using figures of Macedonian past. But there were imperial claims by both Greece and Bulgaria over the region, who used large amounts of money to finance schools and propaganda to have Macedonia become a part of them and have the local population identity change to be Greek/Bulgarian. They got what they wished : in following decades, the heavily greek-influenced area got to become a part of Greece and same with Bulgaria, while what was left still clinged on the old dream of distinct macedonian nationalism even as the main cultural and historical figures they based their identity on was no more in their borders. In a nutshell, North Macedonia pulled a Obi-Wan and said to former Ottoman Macedonia: "you were supposed to be independant, not join them!". It's even part of the dispute with Bulgaria who wants North Macedonia to stop considering itself as an ethnicity so as to stop considering their bulgarized Macedonia as part of their national homeland.
The great question is always "what unites the people". In feudal systems it was of no importance which ethnicity the people had when they were unified by belief and a ruling house. What unifies people is always depended on things people deemed important at a certain time. Language based borders can create totally different states for example.
Greece had no problem with North Macedonian statehood or its people's will for self determination. Greece's objection was the use of Hellenic symbols by a Slavic nation and civilization.
According to my Balkan-specialised professor on uni (Polish) both Greek and Macedonian historiography has some of the wildest claims, by international standards, when it comes to Macedonia. And warned us to not ever mention this topic with either Greeks or Macedonians, or we will never hear the end of it.
Putin was apparently too busy reading such "brilliant thinkers" as Ivan Ilyin and Aleksandr Dugin.
One need look no further than the Ukrainian anthem - _Shche ne vmerla Ukrainy i slava, i volia_ (written in 1862) to see the modern idea of the Ukrainian nation already developed.
BTW said song seemingly took some inspiration from the song that eventually became the Polish national anthem (written in 1797) but that doesn't diminish it in any way, in my opinion. The influence of the Polish independence movement on the Ukrainian one is an interesting topic, especially 1863-1864 January Uprising, the leaders of which were looking back to the idea of the triple Polish-Lithuanian-Ruthenian Commonwealth, first postulated by the Treaty of Hadiach (1658) - a failed attempt to reconcile the Cossack Hetmanate with the PLC.
The January Uprising is even more important for the Belarusian national movement - it's not a coincidence that a Belarusian volunteer unit, currently fighting for Ukraine, is named after one of its leaders - Kastuś Kalinoŭski (Konstanty Kalinowski).
Artur, thank you for that information. 🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦
@@TimeGhost I'm glad and honored you found my incoherent babble interesting.
As Ukranians say: Kiev was a great city of Eastern European steppes before Moskow was even a village
Agreed
Kyiv!
@@ellsworth1956 Київ!
@@ellsworth1956 Nah man that depends on language and all. I used to live in Odessa and Odessits say Kiev because they speak Russian and all
@@subutaynoyan5372 not just language. Is America British because they still speak English?
This has been the most comprehensive debunking of Putin's Lie of Ukrainian Illegitimacy I have yet seen.
Thank you TimeGhost Team - Your work is now History itself.
Thanks very much for watching
I'm not sure if he himself really believes in what he is saying or if it is just deliberate misinformation.
Since: Of course Ukraine IS a legitimate country. But only as long as it's citizens themselves believe so and are ready to defend it. Therefore the things that he is spewing out could and probably should be understood as simple propaganda and misinformation in order to reduce the ukrainian defence against russian annexations.
But to me it seems as though his actions misfired and he is rather deepening the divide and even alienating ukrainian people who felt "Russian".
@@goranatanasovski6463 I'm, like, 90% sure that Putin is completely aware that he is lying through his teeth on this Issue. This is a deliberate attempt at misinformation on his part in order to justify his War.
It would have been nice to see some analysis from a historical perspective regarding Putin's claim, that ukraine was "gifted" territory by russian czars, and soviet leaders such as Khrushchev. Interested to hear if these arguments have any legs to stand on.
@@jaredkutney7075 - Spoiler alert: They don't but they are interesting history.
Of tremendous significance is that Poland recognizes, accepts, and supports Ukrainian independence. But then, Poland has a history of fighting for democratic freedoms at home and abroad.
The important thing, frankly, is that even if Ukraine was "made up" by Lenin.... so what? That doesn't mean Putin just gets to invade Ukraine. I think the fact that the people of Ukraine are fighting back dispels the idea that Ukraine is "made up" in the way Putin claims it is.
Well, nope... Despite what Putin may say, he may forge history, but Yeltsin, previous head of state, already accept Ukraine as sovereign nation. Putin may claim historical there and that, but there bilateral agreements, which he can't erase.
@@shawnkennedy855 Sure the west or Biden to be specific seen Ukraine as a puppet state to provoke Russia, so? Do you suggest that Ukraine is a creation of the west to harm Russia and all the living people in Ukraine are brainwashed to hate Russia. Wait why not the opposite? Why the east didn't brainwashed all the people lived to Russia to obey Putin? What excuse did Russia have for existence? Why Russia isn't puppet of the east?
@@shawnkennedy855 I agree you didn't write, but you mean it or you don't think word "puppet State" is insulting and more so strip Ukraine Independence and part of Russian Propaganda. It not like the leader of NATO give order to Zelenskyy to stay on the ground slow down the russian. Of course, in strategic matter, Ukraine is the west first line of defense, but the relationship between the west and Ukraine are mutual - the west support Ukraine Independence, while you weaker the russian or to be more precise, keep the Russian ego at low level, as I don't see any political or economical gains.
@@shawnkennedy855 I mean it's bs and you know it. "Always accepted" yea sure, for everyone to see yea sure. But in reality he just wants it to be his other arm like Belarus is. Look at Belarus, that is how Putin expected Ukraine to be. And it's not happening, Putin threw away Russia's future its kind of insane. All for lil' old Ukraine. People used to consider Russia our near-peers now they really just goofy.
We know that Ukraine exist now let's say that Ukraine is invented country for metaphoric purposes it still doesent justify bombing hospitals schools residential buildings killing citizens this whole war is absolute genocide.
The first mention of the word Ukraine was in 1187 (40 yeaes after the creation of Moscow btw). The word Vkrayina was used to refur to the land of roughly modern Ukraine (specifically the regilns around Kyiv and Chernihiv).
The idea that Ukraine means borderland is a Russian imperialist myth. Kryi means edge, however kryina means land (today it also means country in Ukrainian). It can be translated literally as "edged object" (kryi also means pice of something). V or U (oo in Ukrainian) means "in". So Vkrayina or ookrayina (the native pronunciation of Ukraine) can be translated as literaly "in country or in land", and is hypothisised to have meant "our land" in the Kyiv dilects of east slavic.
It is a helarious Kremlin myth to imagine that the heartland of Kyiven Rus (it's literally in the name) was called "borderland".
An important bit to mention also is, that when the USSR fell apart there was a referendum held in all parts of Ukraine, and in each part over 90% of the populace voted to become an independent Ukrainian nation(including Donbas etc). So the vast majority of the populace voted to be an independent country. How could anyone claim them to be anything else.
I'm actually astonished that you hit all the marks in the main Ukrainian history. More foreigners need to watch this video to understand that our nationhood has begun much earlier than in 1991 or even in 1917.
Also, it's great that you mention that Ukrainian (then Ruthenian) intellectuals had actually helped Peter I to shape newly formed Russian empire. Most of them were alumni of Kyiv Mohyla Academy which was the main (and one of the few, but all in Ukraine) orthodox educational institutions in Eastern Europe. One of them was Theophan Prokopovich who presumably advised Peter to rename Muscovy to Russia (Rossiya) which was the greek name for Rus. Thus claiming the Rus heritage that Moscow has very little in common with by that time. The reasons to do so of people like Theophan is still debated to this day, but most likely, they’re very pragmatic. It’s easier to associate yourself with a new and emerging power that Muscovy was starting to become. And every new Empire needs a proper myth starting as earlier as possible.
Meanwhile the parts of modern day Ukraine and Belarus under the Commonwealth were considered Rus land or Ruthenia (just a Latin name of Rus). Moreover, the area near Lviv was called Ruthenian Voivodeship up until the end of 18th century.
So, if you bear this in mind, it’s just another proof that Ukrainian history starts from Rus period and that Rus period is not about todays Russia. They can claim their Novgorod heritage of course (although Ivan the Terrible made everything possible to erase it), but everything that happened around Kyiv was part of Ruthenia and thus Ukraine. And almost everything happend in Kyiv and Chernihiv at the height of Rus state.
Also, just google Kingdom of Ruthenia, you'll be quite delighted as well.
But ofc every russian will go wild because they truly think that Volodymyr the Great can be considered modern ‘russian’ but when we say, he can be Ukrainian they laugh. But we don’t care, this war has helped us embrace out true history and meaning.
One correction: Rus wasn't Russian or Ukrainian. It was an ancestor state to us all.
>But ofc every russian will go wild because they truly think that Volodymyr the Great can be considered modern ‘russian’ but when we say, he can be Ukrainian they laugh. But we don’t care, this war has helped us embrace out true history and meaning.
Nope, not every Russian will go wild, I won't. I would agree with the comment above that Volodymyr the Great is neither Russian nor Ukrainian but something else. Alternative points of view are also perfectly valid and can be a subject for a friendly debate. In no circumstances attachment of nationality tags to historical personalities or events can be a justification for an aggression. I'm sorry for what Putin does to Ukraine, нет войне.
Ultranationalists of the 20th & 21st century consider "intellectuals" to be enemies. They might bring up pesky facts and rational arguments.
The Novgorod republic was in a big part Finnish. Quite o lot of the letopisi found ( writings at birch bark ) were written in some form of finnish language.
@@peeternomm You have to remember not only Novgorod used it but also common in Karelia.
A great job as always! A wealth of information that deserves a re-watch. I grew up in the cold war USA and it seems like all my history has been "that is the USSR over there" and that was it. Such a long and gripping history. Even their name "Ukraine" or borderlands, is a big part of their national identity. It seems to me that they were a melting pot of different cultures of surrounding empires to create their unique culture of today. I can not wait for your next episode! You and your team have done it again! Thank you!
Thank you for watching, Dale
Ukraine doesn't mean borderland. "Україна/Вкраїна" means country. That's one mistake made in this video.
@@pavlosegeda8294 Thank you for your thoughts. Could you clarify the translation for me? I do not speak Russian or Ukrainian so I must trust others for translation. I had also heard that it means edge country or land on the edge. Kind of a unique perspective considering that Kyiv was a major city center before Moscow was even a village or a wide spot in the road. Thanks again for your response!
@@daleeladakus1966 It's complicated. I'm not linguist, so my explanations based on modern Ukrainian. Word 'край/krai' could mean edge of something or part of the country. So Russians claimed all time that it's mean borderland.
BUT. There is always but ^) Word 'країна/kraina' have only one meaning - country. As you pointed it's strange that mainland of Rus would be called borderland. So "Україна/Вкраїна" can be literally translated as 'in our land/country'. For me it's more logical.
@@pavlosegeda8294 Nice, thank you so much for clarifying. Your interpretation of the meaning of "the ukraines" makes more sense to me. If I understand you right Russia was trying to rewrite history even back then. Thanks again!
Thank you for the interesting episode. Two things I would add to the discussion.
1. "Ukraine" is not considered to be coming from the word "borderland", in Ukrainian historiography, or by Ukrainians themselves. Instead, it is believed to come from Ruthenians - later Ukrainians - saying that they live "in a country" or "U kraini". Indeed, it would be weird for them to say they live in a borderlands with a capital of Rus being in Kyiv. "Borderlands" is a narrative that was mixed in by the russian historians to justify that "this is just borderlands of the russian empire". They use this narrative up to this day, mispronouncing Ukraina in exactly the way to show that it comes from the word borderlands.
2. Pereiaslav Agreement from Cossack point of view was to be mainly a military alliance with russia, similar to the one they had previously had with Crimean Tatars. Obviously russia had other ideas and used it to have a legal claim on Ukrainian lands. Mainly because of this maltreatment Cossacks allied with Swedes to break away from russia in the Northern war under Iwan Mazepa, hero for Ukrainians and "Archtraitor" for russians.
If I remember my history classes right, we were taught about a theory that Pereyasliv Agreement that Khmelnitsky brought to Russia was not the same document that was signed by the tsar. The Russians took it for "assessment" or "safekeeping", and then re-wrote them more to their liking. Which in turn caused Khmelnitsky to die of heart attack soon after he found out.
@@jehovasabettor9080 Yes, this is one of the theories. In line with what russians did to the rest of their treaties too
Interesting topic from etymological point of view but krajina does mean borderland in most Slavic languages. The Germanic equivalent is mark (march in English). So Ukrajina means literally "On the frontier". But still, when locals adopt these names, the word mark/kraj(ina) gets also meaning of just country or region, like in Denmark, although for the Danes their country is very much in the middle, or Russian administrative units called krajs. Remember that historically Ukraine is not just frontier of Russia but also Poland, Lithuania, Ottoman Empire, Byzantium etc. There have been multiple Slavic people to whom the area of Ukraine has always been on the border of something, so there's the influence.
@@Eppu_Paranormaali Which languages would that be? Not Ukrainian, not Polish and not Belarusian. Unless you count Russian as "most" Slavic languages, the point doesn't really hold.
@@jehovasabettor9080 South Slavic at least. My bad, meant to say used to mean. Obviously its meanings have changed over time in north but that's the origin, just like mark in Scandinavian languages.
When the Great War began, 4 years before the Ukraine was "invented" by Lenin, there were no such countries as Armenia, Egypt, Finland, India, Ireland, Korea, the Philippines, Poland, and Vietnam. 10 years before that, there were no such countries as Mongolia and Norway. 34 years before that, there were no such countries as Australia and Germany. And 10 years before that there, were no such countries as Canada and Italy.
Those examples were handpicked to make a point: Who in the West would think to deny the legitimacy of any of these?
Go back far enough, and there were no such countries as Russia, the United States and China, either.
Heck, going to dawn of huminty, there wasn't such thing as countries, cites, agriculture...
Joke aside, I understand you want to say, every nation are invented and gain legitimacy, by some power or order
The video and the comments make me think of the "invention" of many states....Gandhi's vision of India vs. Jinnah's, vs the centuries old principalities...... to name just one.....
Peru and Bolivia
Spain and Portugal
The British isles.....
Canada
Norway and other countries that created a common language....
@@ericcarlson3746 India is a perfect illustration of my point, as it's a civilization that goes back millennia but a country that only goes back 3/4 of a century. Even the Mughals, who came closer than anyone before them, never controlled the entirety of the Indian subcontinent - and you could fit whole European countries in the "small" areas that escaped their rule.
Well I personally did Invent Ireland
@@Stamboul Fitting entire European countries isn’t hard… Look up Monaco, San Marino, Liechtenstein and Andorra as examples…
Some of them would comfortably fit inside the city area of New Delhi…
My heart bleeds for my ancestral people
Like a nightmare watching the war
Each day more atrocities
I cannot look away
A sense of disbelief
Endless grief
Fury choked in my breast
Daggers in my chest
What beauty I once saw
Aflame!
I know who is to blame!
Blackened earth and blood red skies
My blood burns listening to Putin's lies
Learning that there is no winning a war
Simply to survive
Keep truth alive
Cringe now I support 🇷🇺
All doubts that Ukraine is a state have been swept away by the tenacious defense they showed and showing against the Russian aggressor. If they were no nation before, they are certainly now.
@lucius1976
lucius1976 :That might be Putin's most enduring legacy. Ironic isn't it?
@@Bufoferrata It's not, because ukrainian nation already existed centuries before Putler was born.
It may have been known as Ruthenean or Rusyn, but it's the same nation on the same territory.
Putler simply rejected reality and beleived in his own and USSR propaganda.
@@Bufoferrata He's barely a footnote, hence the desperate mess we see playing out 💋
As always a brilliant presentation of the facts. Well done time ghost team.
Thank you!
Interesting facts as always and I love the tag team in some of these episodes.
Glad you liked it, thank you!
They may not have been called, or called themselves Ukrainian, but a seperate Nation with its own culture and language has existed in that part of the world since the 1600s. There were just very few times in history that nation was an independent country. It would only pop up for a decade at most and then get absorbed or attacked by the Polish, Germans, Austrians, Ottomans or Muscovites/Russians
All of them over history whether they admit it or not were fighting over the resources from the soils of that area. That whole land is coveted for its rich soil and ability to produce.
In Italy there are dozens of languages. Should the country be divided into dozens of states?
The theory that all nation states are historically conditioned entities based in tradition and various dynamic cultural ties is not even that new, even in the former USSR. Funnily, a certain well-known guy named Joe from Georgia said the following about nation-states:
"It goes without saying that a nation, like every historical phenomenon, is subject to the law of change, has its history, its beginning and end."
If we think of national identity as a historical phenomenon, ironically Putin may have done a great deal to foster Ukrainian national identity, not only among Ukrainian-speakers but many of the Russian speakers in the East of the country that Putin claims to represent (but whose hometowns have now become battlefields).
Germans used to descibe Poland as "season state", while Soviets describing it as"monstrous bastard of Versailles". Nothing new amongst imperial agressors
@@julianshepherd2038 And what exactly was the red army busy with? With the struggle to take over what Russia still had. Poland had the border conflicts with _non-soviet_ states. And those local conflicts would have stayed the only ones Poland had in the east, if Lenin didn't decide to additionally roll in.
And here there are some details about these smaller conflicts. Only Western Ukraine was a place Poland had trouble to take, because Ukrainians weren't willing to make it happen. Belarus and Lithuania on the other had... well. Although Belarus announced itself to be a state, it barely had any national self-awareness to the point that there weren't even any military fights when Poland took Western Belarus. As for Lithuania, a huge portion of Lithuania declared itself to be polish, and the local polish units were those who were engaged in the fights against the storming Soviets before Poland's official forces came. Lithuania made the attack on the polish forces, failed... and Poland ignored it, because there was a bigger issue which was the polish-soviet war. Lithuania got this disputed region for the first time only in July 1920. How? Well, the bolsheviks were marching on Warsaw, captured this region along the way, and just gave it to Lithuania "Here, have it. Just don't interrupt our march on Warsaw". Only because of that, Poland decided later to make a military operation against Lithuania to retake the region.
Awesome summary of Ukrainian history! Yes, every country is evolving on the history stage. It isn’t a black and white story. But it is a long struggle for freedom. History is a path to freedom but not a straight one.
The coolest guys on the Internet. Laying down historical facts like concrete. I have been watching/listening to a lot of your videos for the last few days, and I have learnt a lot. Thank you.
As a Russian who is used to seeing heaps of fakes about the history of Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Poland on American channels, I was very fascinated and amazed by your accuracy and knowledge of historical moments. Thanks for the great work.
after i watched that your channel is from germany i understood why you were so good and accurate hahahaha. it wouldn't be possible if you were American haha xd
Thanks for watching, our team is multinational.
Gotta say, I'm really glad you explained the difference between "right bank" and "left bank" 👍👍
Great work guys, very interesting episode. I only knew a little of that history.
Nice Nord keyboard btw Indy. I have one too (Electro).
Thank you!
I spotted that too. I've got an Electro 2. ;)
@@mattiouvinen9138 Mines an Electro 6, It was actually cheaper than any older model I could find being sold.
All the videos you folks make are a goldmine for me, retired at 67 and with a lifetime interest in history. Incredibly researched and excellently presented. Thank you so much!!
@William Donnelly Thanks so much for your kind words, glad to have you aboard!
Simply brilliant. Historical rigor in a video for broad public consumption. I wouldn't think it possible to make such a comprehensive summary in a 15min video while avoiding sweeping simplifications or being boring. Kudos, guys!
@Luka Thanks very much, cheers
Hi Indy and sparty
So much research you had done for this episode..
Learned a lot..
Thanks..
A little bit unrelated, but I’d be really interested to see a day by day series (similar to that for the Cuban missile crises) on the 1991 Soviet Coup
Every episode is a great investment of research, time, and money. We do our best to cover the action of this war every single week and to bring you special episodes regularly, but we can't do it without your support! Join the TimeGhost Army on Patreon and help us to make more of those specials! www.patreon.com/join/timeghosthistory
I love this series!! Knowledge is Freedom, Knowledge is Power.
Thank you for watching and remembering with us, Patrick. You share my nephew's name!
Been enjoying the series. Good presentation of the facts.
Thank you!
Just wow your Into Context videos are so criminally underrated. These videos should have millions of views.
@Miroo Thank you much
You do such a great job deconstructing the myths of "natural" states! Proud to be a patreon!
Thanks so much for supporting us @Christoph, you make everything we do possible
A few months ago i wrote an article about nationalism in the mid-late-19th century until the start of the Great War. Always good to learn more.
“Chmelnitsky swears allegiance” is a wrong phrase! It was more military alliance agreement, and Moscovites mostly adhered to it while Chmelnitsky was alive. After he died - it turned in to downright occupation of Hetmanite/Ukraine. This is very important!!!
As Ukrainian want to thank you for such accurate video. Also Mykhailo Hryshevsky was our first Ukrainian President in 1918
Great video, though i am a little surprised you did not mention Taras Shevchenko as he is a pretty important figure in the ukrainian sense of nationhood. Maybe if you ever do a video on Ukraine's culture he'll make an appearance.
precision !
Some Soviet republics' borders were drawn in a way to create an inconsistent mix of ethnicities within a same republic.
And that was meant to make it harder for nationalist within said republics to unite the whole of the people.
Plus there was planned settlement of russians wherever possible
Putin is the very definition of "reading history" vs "learning history."
Putin is the very definition of "History is a lie agreed upon, to be used solely for political gain."
@@jliller Exactly. The "Russian Military History Institute" as they call it is nothing but a tool for him to falsify history. Russians aren't like us westerners who look into the future but they look into the past and find their justification there.
But are those countries doing it now? Name a nation with no skeletons in its closet? I know there are some but majority had some evil in their past, the important thing is acknowledging it and moving away from that behavior. I cannot go steal and say "well so and so stole, so why can't
I?"
And soon he will become history
What constitutes a "Nation" is basically arbitrary, just like "Ethnicity" or any other group. That doesn't mean they don't exist in the context of our world, but sadly too many people take these labels as "Nature"...
Live long and prosper.
Thanks for showing my regimental painting of the think red line 93erd regament of foot at the battle of of balaclava .
I am a Argyll and Sutherland highlander vetran. Good on ya boys .
There a convoy of ex argylls leaving Scotland to supply aid to Ukraine 🇺🇦 this weekend.
Sans pur / ne obliscarus
@Brian Thanks for watching. The best of luck to them and everyone in Ukraine 🇺🇦
I learned a ton today, thank you!
There are only two justification for a sovereign ukraine that matters:
1. The people living there want it that way.
2. The overwhelming majority of them is willing to figth for it.
The only question is now how many fire, steel and blood is needed before Putin get it into his head that not everyone has to do what he wants.
And it starts to look like his grip on Belarus is not nearly as strong a everyone believed. Overall it seems no one wants to be a part of Wladimirs little russian empire.
Brilliant, simply brilliant. These context eps of yours give essential perspective in these confusing, manipulated and misunderstood times. Thank you!
@Nick Thank you for watching
In the weeks leading up to the invasion and even for a time after I would have considered myself sympathetic to the Russian position. I saw Putin as a strong leader (in contrast to my own) and a smart man. However, as the war developed and the incompetence of the Russian military was revealed, the treatment of Russians in Russia, and after learning about the history and context of the region (including from you guys at TimeGhost History) my opinion of the situation has pretty much flipped. I can no longer support a man who lies to and oppresses his own people, who bombs hospitals and kills fleeing civilians.
Thank you for shedding light on this conflict
Good to hear there are still people that are open to new or other ideas. That's a valuable skill and one I'm all too afraid to sometimes not have.
The most telling pretext of Putin’s criminal invasion is the lie that his military entered Ukraine to root out Naziism. The lie is revealed in how the Russian military is going about this “rooting out”-by murdering civilians, by destroying every house and building indiscriminately, by targeting fleeing refugees with bombardments. Apparently every Ukrainian citizen is a Nazi. Every brick in every building is a Nazi brick.
@Aditya Chavarkar You think Putin is the only world leader who kills people or silences opposition? And i'm sure that Russia doesn't have the worst income inequality.
@easysqueezy "other countries do bad things, so russia can't be criticized".
I had this class in college. It's just as convoluted now as I remember it.
Super stoked for the new into context episode!
Thank you for including that bit about left/right banks of a river. I did not know that!
You're welcome!!
Always super excited when I see a new TimeGhost History release!
And we are always super excited to read what your thoughts are, so thank you for watching!
By far the most condensed, concise and unbiased retale of the known history of Ukraine. Thank you.
Thank you, we're glad to hear that we've done it justice here. 🇺🇦
"RUSSKA" - The Novel of Russia by the highly acclaimed Edward Rutherford, is a fantastic and beautifully written book I highly recommend for explaining the intertwined pasts of these two similar but uniquely different sovereign countries to the lay historian.
What do they say about Ukraine, before I pick it up.
@@polishherowitoldpilecki5521 Lets just say Kyiv was well established whilst Moscow was still a collection of huts...
@@stephen9869 I know, I’m curious how the cradle of eastern Slavic civilization KyIv fell to the hands of Muscovy. When Kyiv was well established 100 years before them.
Thank you, quality content on Ukraine history for foreign viewers is always welcome!
@onestep87 Thanks, we appreciate your kind words. 🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦
The polish lithuanian Commonwealth in latin is called Res publica utriusque nationis, or the Republic of both nations...I have never understood why it was called republic, even if it was a de facto monarchy. For this reason, when Poland gets independence in 1918, that is called the second republic
That's a good question. Technically after XV century every king was elected by gathering of nobles. And they considered themselves as "nation" (even if it was only around 10% of population) and were really proud of having such role. They had many privilegies and laws protecting their rights (so called "golden freedom"). That's also a reason because of which king in Commonwealth was always relatively weak. In polish historiography this system is called "noble democracy".
And, unfortunately, that was one of reasons, why country felt into darkness in XVIII c. Most powerful families had became oligarchs and started to conduct their own politics, often against their own country.
Fun fact: after Kosac's uprising in 1658 there was a project of creating "republic of three nations" - with Grand Principality of Ruthenia (Ukraine). It eventually never happened, but symbolic of such country emerged once again during polish/lithuanian uprisings against Russia in XIX century.
@@xavras06 cool thanks!
Res publica doesn't mean republic here but it is used in its literal meaning here - common things. This is reflected in Polish name which is Rzeczpospolita (rzecz - thing, pospolita - common). This is why the name is translated into English as Commonwealth not Republic. And, even though current Polish state is officially called in English Republic, in Polish it is still Rzeczpospolita (3rd one, the one in between the World Wars was the 2nd).
I think this new In Context concept may be the most important thing that Time Ghost Army ever does.
Now we need somebody to show this to Putin
I find it funny how Poland 🇵🇱 is once again supporting Ukriane Ukraine 🇺🇦 to spite the Russians 🇷🇺
This beef goes back centuries.
Very thoughtful presentation with interesting details! Thank you Indi and Spartacus for explaining the origins of Ukrainian national identity. I would like to draw your attention to your claim that west of Dnipro the population was predominantly Catholic. I tend to disagree, maybe you can check your sources again.
That depends on your definition of "Catholic". At that time it was mostly Ukrainian Greek Catholic, which is still technically catholic despite having literally no difference from Orthodox Ukrainians in terms of rites and faith.
It's unfortunate you have to continue this series, but we're so grateful you are. No tie reviews here
@Gianni Thank you for watching. We'll expect more tie reviews from you eventually though
@@TimeGhost Careful what you wish for
At any rate Ukraine has been considered a sovereign nation by other sovereign nations since the wall came down 32 years ago which might not seem like a long time to a 65 year old fart like me but it is a long time to say a 40 year old Ukrainian. And it is in my 1898 encyclopedias.
Indy & Spartacus, thank you for this series. I know all of you at Time Ghost History are dedicated to high quality productions. I appreciate your efforts and welcome this chance to expand my knowledge.
Thank you all for the hard work.
Thankyou @Michael Johnston, we also appreciate you taking the time to post your kind words
This topic brings questions... we have different regions in almost every country, that identify themselves inside the nation they are in. They can have specific culture, dialect can differ very much across one country, to the point that people from one part of country hardly understand people from another part of country. For example, we have region Bavaria in German, Catalonia in Spain, Sicilians in Italy and many more. In USA we have different states, but again all Americans.
So how does it happen that one region starts to identify themselves as a separate nation? Does that mean we can expect more nations in the future to come? Ukrainians gain they recognition long time ago, but they had to fight for it, and still it's not always very clear, so it seems they try to distinct themselves even more from Russia, even for the things that they actually have in common.
We see this happens all the time through history, some nation gain recognition, some are struggling, some will uprise in the future. And it's almost always very oppressed and violent. It seems like never ending war on earth.
Does idea of new nation arises when people from one region are not satisfied with their status inside of their current nation?
Great point from this video is that any country can be seen as unnaturally, or natural, depends on point of view from which we are looking at it.
That’s a great question! This doesn’t justify Russia’s war by any means. But To add to your point, when I was visiting Ukraine, I traveled with my family from Kharkiv to go skiing in a Carpathian village. My family from Kharkiv were not able to communicate at all with the family we were staying with. Ironically this war has united all the various ethnicities in Ukraine. Pretty much everyone who considered themselves ethnic Russians a few weeks ago, now identify themselves as Ukrainians.
Even if the current borders of Ukraine don’t reflect its historical origin, the fact of the matter is that Russia agreed to them, and it can’t just reshape it because the country is moving in a different political direction. Moreover, if Russia has the right to East Ukraine, then surly many of its own regions like Dagestan and Ingueshetia have a right to their independence, since those people have an even more unique identity?
Geographical and cultural differences are first step to generate a feeling of being "separate" from rest of country/nation.
Geographical features can lead to difference in language - pretty much every country that has mountains has difference between language "mountain" and "lowland" people speak. Next thing is closeness to people speaking completely different language - there's still slight difference in my, allegedly homoethnic, country between western and eastern dialects.
That's an example how geographical differences can led to cultural differences.
Add onto it historical situation, like being ruled by cadet branch of old dynasty, being influenced by influx of foreign migrants (cough, most of Galia being conquered by Franks, cough), change of faith, choosing different creed of certain faith. Different faith and different rulers give Bavaria being "separate" from Hesse.
And, of course, being oppressed by majority on the grounds of what makes a certain part of country/nation "separate" from the rest accelerates the process of getting idea if own "nationhood".
@@Mursmurs325 I understand what you are saying, but I didn't mean just about Russia and Ukraine, that's just one example, more in general. Countries are reshaped all the time through history, so there's no universal rule what can be and can not be done. Who has stronger force, he wins. And it seems that it's always because of political views. Even in one country you have different political views, they are constantly opposing each other, and in some situations it rises to a bigger conflict, revolutions, wars...
But even if we agree on some rule and apply it to everyone, it seems we will have each city to be independent country, or in the other direction we could end up with one country per continent. But since we don't have a strict rule, we cannot define easily what is nation and what is not, we have to deal with reality that conflicts will happen in the future as they did in the past. There are always two opposed sides and in most of the cases they both have a point and they are both wrong, depends of the perspective of observer.
For example if Crimea gets independents, it means that all the territories in similar situation should gain independents. If Ukraine gets Crimea back, that means that all countries should get back their territories which were separated in similar way as Crimea.
Also, it doesn't help that all other countries meddle in, and they all take sides based on their own interests, not based on some moral point of view.
Thank you for expressing these thoughts so succinctly and asking great questions. I don't have answers but I appreciate the discussion you've generated.
Just wanted to add a fast comment. I had lived in Alaska for about 6 years and then moved to Washington DC for awhile. Massive culture shock! Like 2 different countries! haha, just wanted to add that!
As Ukrainian, I should say that it is the best english video on the Ukrainian history so far. Great work!
@Zoran Thanks for watching
Wikipedia: "Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia"
Thank You Indy and Spartacus and Team. That missive helps a lot to to bring the facts to this part of the world in Australasia.
@Peter Thanks very much for your kind words. The whole team works hard every week and it's nice reading so many thoughtful comments like yours. Stay tuned
I know a few men by the names of Sykes and Picot who might disagree with the more romantic view of how modern nation-states are formed described here. Might be worth including words like "most" or "many" when talking about the will of the people and forming borders and nations.
Between us, and Sykes and Picot there is roughly the equidistant time as between them and the Vienna Conference… so, by your argument we might as well just return to feudal rule of Europe… resurrect the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the Russian Empire. Give Germany back to the Princess as their personal property… abolish nation states and democracy all together 🙄
And yet many of the countries they drew up now have a national identity of their own.
@@spartacus-olsson That's not the point I was going for, but I see how it wasn't fully clear. I meant that the talk of how and why nations form - around shared cultural identity or some sort of bond - left out entirely nations that were arbitrarily formed on maps by colonialists, which I don't think is fair to all of the people who were boxed into nations whose borders cut right through ethnic, religious, or cultural borders, often being the source of ongoing conflict and struggle.
@@abbottabbott1120 while you are right, the same applies to many of the borders in Europe created in the 19th and 20th Century too. Human culture is not naturally and clearly divided by rivers, mountains, valleys, or any other geography. It’s fuzzy, and a border will _always_ leave some people on the wrong side of the border, on both sides of the border.
I am enjoying this new series on current events, thanks guys!
@Chronus Thanks for watching, we're glad you enjoy the new format. We feel it's our duty to speak truth on this subject in the midst of such horror.
Putin's biggest issue with Ukraine and Belarus is that without them 90% of the Kievan Rus' including it's capital and most of it's great cities lie outside Russian territory, maps of the Kievan Rus' notably do not have Moscow on them .... Modern Russia has almost no ties to it's founding myth anymore
First capital of Rus was Novgorod and Russia still have it.
Putin has bigger issues than that.
@@ЕвгенийПавлюк-ж7к , because they annexed it in the past.
Ah, The Dynamic Sartorial Splendid Duo! Good to see you guys again.
@@арефнар One historian's evidence is another biased ignoramus's Truthspeak.
really waiting for this rn , already can tell its going to be good
Thank you!
Wow.... just wow. So much information in such a compact format.... wow! This Episode is a Masterpiece, a Jewl in the treasury of Work Time Ghost has done over the years.
@Ralph Thank you for the high praise.
Man, one big major mistake was your interpretation a Ukraine as "Borderland"... Uhhh, you see, main problem that word Krai in slavic languages can be used in many ways - and Border is just one meaning of them. But as well it meand Realm, or Land. Even nowadays russia uses oficially Krai as name for some regions (Krasnodarsky Krai). By ukranian linguists 'borderlands' is possible interpretation, but persistent use of it by Russian sources for hundreds of years perceived as a way to belittle the role of Ukraine by Moskow biassed historians.
Another possible interpretation is У(в) - in, Країна - land/country. So basically, 'Inlands', or 'The Land'/'The Country'
Sadly, foreign sources are influenced by Moscow historography and do not consider other interpretations beside 'Borderland' one.
In polish kraj means nation/country
What if BOTH etymologies are correct in the way that name was used in both meanings (by different people), independently and just happen to be essentially the same word?
It would explain why this name stuck there so much.
I'm not historian though, I'm just guessing.
@@vladprus4019 well, first of all, in russian окраина instead of Украина feels sweary, and derogatory, and often used in that way by russians.
The main problem with the "borderland" theory here is that the Ukrainian lands have never been as borderlands really.
In the 9th-11th centuries, Rus was a land on the trade route from the Varangians to the Greeks, periodically even playing an important political role in European politics. Too much for something named as, well. basically "Outskirts"
Moreover, the Vladimir and Novgorod principalities are was resembling more of "borderlands" than Kievan principalities.
So yeah, for ukranians this seen like big overlook on history.
Also seen some linguist, he saying that word for 'borderlands' that resembles 'ukraine' appears in historical sources much much after the first 'ukraine' mention. But imo, this doesn't say much because all sources before the 14th century is rather dryly described
annals, or religious books that written on old church slavonic, basically - bulgarian
Great work!
Cheers from México!
Peace for the world!
@Alejandro Thank you for watching 🇲🇽
Fantastic video, great analysis and presentation! Thank you! 👏👍
Thank you!
genuinely love you guys so much! you make fantastic videos, you know your stuff and any of your videos are yet to fail to entertain and educate me. keep up the great work guys!!!!
@chimney064 Thanks so much, we really appreciate the kind words. We'll keep making videos if you keep watching them
Quite frankly I believe he's more interested in writing his own history than truly learning from the past.
same deal with a certain human poo, trying to declare that the SEA area is historically owned by china but you dont see Han chinese here... only Austronesians...
@@MegaOS_Ver_NEET autocrats gotta autocrat. These regimes need to constantly establish their own legitimacy because their power comes from use of force (soft or hard) and not from the peoples will. 😂
@@lobstereleven4610 all power coming from the barrel of the gun, that what the state is
@@quanghuyvo6112 there's a difference between states that are ruled by the will of the people, and states that are ruled by the will of the autocrat. Boiling statehood down to the monopoly of violence is a very simplistic and disingenuous way to look at statehood.
@@lobstereleven4610 the will of the people stop exist when you start let a small group of people decide your fate, is just a bunch of oligarchy with different name, reaf more about the iron law of oligarchy
My great-grandparents emigrated from western Ukraine to the US before 1917. They thought of themselves as Ukrainians, not Russians. They were very proud of their heritage, language, and traditions. They seemed fiercely independent, wanting freedom and were proud to be Ukrainian Americans. They loved this country and its freedom as well as their own unique culture. I think if I understand those we know from Ukraine today today, Ukrainians are desperately trying to maintain their freedom, despite their country’s problems, which is not unlike how many Americans feel today.
Thank you for sharing about your great-grandparents
I like to comment on these things but you guys do such a good job of researching and presenting facts only that I find myself speachless.
@David We welcome your comments but we just appreciate you watching
This is an amazingly clear and important summary of the history of a nation and it's people. I wish for many a Russian to enjoy it as much as I did. Spread the word! This makes me proud to be a Time-Ghost army member.
@Mensen We thank you for your kind words, and for your support in the TGA
Loved this one, more than the previous. Indy and Spartacus are very captivating hosts
I was thinking of asking TimeGhost to do this.
Indy: the baseball bats in the corner are a nice touch. My thoughts exactly.
I really like this episode but feel you should do the same for Russia. In my readings I have come across how the river cruising Swedish Vikings went do the Moskva river and founded Moscow. They were call Russ and in time the area was call Russia. You guys can do a better job than me. I feel it would tie into the " Made up country " theme.
That is the story of Kiev not Moscow.
You must have missed the episode that debunks Vikings as a modern historical fiction.
as far as I know, Moscow wasn't even found or was little settlement at Rus realm (it also wasn't a kingdom nor a nation), it was rise only at the time of Golden Horde, aka the Tatar Yoke.
True Vikings were not really an ethnic group (but they were Norse people, who were/are an ethnic group) and didn't call themselves Vikings. However they were still seafaring people from Scandanavia, regardless of what they were called.
How the "vikings" became the "states" we now call Scandinavia could be another episode no doubt paralleling this video.
Best channel on UA-cam!
@manderse12 Thank you! You in the TimeGhost Army are the best audience on UA-cam!
вільна Україна... Free Ukraine
Thank you Time Ghost!
Superb video as always, Ukrainian identity goes as far back as the East Slavs and the Kievan Rus indeed (origins of Russians, Belarussians and Ukranians) and remarkably survived despite centuries of being ruled by Polish-Lithuanians, Austrians and Russians and attempted russification in the last century until the soviet union's collapse although i feel like Putin is clearly talking to his people whenever he speaks about ukraine lately. Man is crazy but man ain't stupid and feel like Zelensky is also somewhat responsible for his people's suffering by not trying to negotiate or concede on some aspects and also trying to shame the leaders, as well as a mix of threats, warnings and pleas to a lot of nations to join him, hope it ends soon so that the suffering of both ukrainian, russian and other ordinary people handling the refugee crisis can stop asap because unfortunately they are always the ones in harms way unlike the guys who deserve to be for rolling the battle dice by putting forward their own people for such sacrifice in all aspects, from life and stress to socioeconimic fronts (which the blockade of russian oligarchs will only empoverish the poor and middle class people from Russia, not to mention the rising oil prices will only empoverish poor and low middle class people around the world)
Civilized countries never negotiate anything with terrorists. Including Putin. When someone is aiming the gun at your head, is there any kind of negotiation still possible?
@@TimeGhost that is true however i highly doubt that is the case (especially prior to Putin's invasion) given what we know if it turns out to be such i will gladly retrieve such statements. And even if Zelensky and his cabinet are naturally inclined to join Nato and EU they could've tried a gradual process instead of just antagonizing russia by speeding up such process and avoiding such bloodshed not to mention that likely ukraine's government didn't held any of the minsk agreement terms (don't think the russians did either, i digress) not to mention his speech lately is highly suspicious by firing on all directions with honey talk like 'we won't join nato now' to russia and ' you are next, come aid our struggle' to israel and so on... Sounds everything like this was avoidable on both sides but then again when have politicians actually genuinely cared about people? That is the problem going on in massive parts of the world not just Ukraine unfortunately. I also feel he's milking the popularity he's gained by being 'the saviour of ukraine' and that also might have a dire direction in the future. Putin's clearly the antagonizer (and NOTHING justifies his invasion) here but likely Zelensky and the US government in which i am deeply disappointed in its newest president) aren't far from such either.
@@RodolfoGaming ,BS
I'd love an episode in this series on the history of Belarus. Loving the series!
🇺🇦✊
Gallicia is a frustrating for genealogists. People would sometimes identify as being from there on a census or other official records. Since it was never an independent country and political borders have moved around so much it's often hard to tell where the individual was from in modern terms and what their ethnicity was (Polish, Ukrainian, or Hungarian).
Fascinating how rich and complicated Ukrainian history is. I wouldn't mind seeing one of these for Belarus since Putin treats them much the same way and sees them as Russian rather than their own distinct people.
Only difference being is he already has his puppet there, yes.
Belarus has the same history except that no part of Belarus was under the Austro Hungarian empire.
It's interesting to see how the idea of nationhood develops, especially seeing that no one country grows on a tree. Thanks for this video!
Especially the 90% of countries that are not small islands!
Lebanon did, it's on their flag 😏
Man Ukrainian identity goes wayyy back, Kievan Rus, Cossacks, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Habsburg Galicia...
Out of everything, Lenin seems to be the one with the LEAST to do with Ukrainian identity, let alone “create” it. Read more history, Putin!
My thoughts exactly! This is what happens when you try to re-write history to fit your narrative. You forget what is real!
Great video, guys
Can't wait to see what you guys do with this series, with Ukraine and beyond this war
Well presented TimeGhost. My understanding is that the Ukrainian nationalism comes as much from the native Ruthenian inhabitants as it does from Cossack traditions. It might also be worth mentioning the primary reason for the rise of the Principality of Moscovy was it's role as a vassal tributary collector for the Golden Horde.