All of these details are covered in "Piano Servicing, Tuning, and Rebuilding" by Arthur Reblitz. It is the "go to" manual for all registered piano techs.
This is a great video which shows more relevant information than many others I've seen put up by people who do this for a living. I bought a smaller, used Japan built Yamaha grand piano for my daughter which she loves. it is immaculate. The only issue with it is that someone in the past did some hammer voicing badly and although the tech I have come to tune it says he can work on the hammers, like yourself I have a technical background and I have looked closely at the hammers and I am convinced that I would just keep paying for hammer work and not get the end result i'm after. I took matters into my own hands and bought a set of hammers from Yamaha. They came glued and set on the shanks which included new knuckles and flanges. So basically unscrew one hammer fit the other and re fit the screw. I know that's simplistic as the new knuckles will alter a number of parameters as it did when you cleaned up and re-shaped the ones on your piano. The hammer set I received are ready to hang as if being put on a new action during the process of manufacturing. Aside from the felt on each hammer being a later equivalent the dimensions and weight of the new hammers are identical to the original hammers. I called the tech and suggested I fit the new hammers to the action to save him time and my money. Perfectly happy to pay him for a whole day setting the action up after the hammers are hung. I am more than capable of hanging the new hammers and checking alignment with the strings and checking that the hammer positions are also correct when the soft pedal is deployed. I would replace alternate hammers first and measure and check to set the hammers in the correct position relative to the strings. Apparently I would need fairy dust and a deep knowledge of Voodoo because the new hammers could be affected by the conditions in my home and therefore the strike point might not be right because the frame dimensions vary from one instrument to another and so on. So I'm thinking after watching your video a good few times that I'll make some regulating tools as it's hard to get them where I live, install the hammers and regulate the action as you have here, plus polish the key pins and so on. I have the greatest respect for anyone who has learned a trade but I'm not one for being blinded by a few technical terms and various other fluff. I'm still waiting for a reply as to whether I should hang the hammers as apparently some research is required as having a new hammer set including shanks, knuckles and flanges is not the done thing. My daughter is 13 and wants to make a career in classical music, she works hard and I need her piano to sound great as I know it will with new hammers as I already swapped a few to see how they sounded then swapped them back. To be fair there was very little difference in let off and drop and they back checked at the same point as the original hammers as the new set are very near identical in all respects to the originals. I know I've waffled here lol. I just want to ask if there any other pit falls I could encounter beyond regulation as you have described in your video? Thank you very much. Best Regards.
Hi Tim, thanks for the feedback. I am not a piano technician so would not pretend to offer any advise. That being said, from a purely technical/mechanical perspective, your measured and cautious approach towards your action is a wise choice. I have done additional fine tuning to my action since doing the video. The main thing was setting the let-off with the action in the piano so the actual string height was used. I then took the action out and adjusted the drop again. This got things closer to the ideal. The other thing I discovered is this nebulous "after touch" parameter. After much research and then observation of the action I think I understand it now. If you slowly depress the key to the drop there is still a bit of key travel which starts to lift the hammer again. If there is too much travel before the key bottoms out you have to release the key that amount of travel again before the jack can flick back under the knuckle to play the note again. This slows down repetitive note playing. I went through all the keys and put paper shims under the keys so that at let-off the key had minimum travel to bottom out and the hammer just started to move up again. With this adjustment done, releasing the key slightly allowed the jack to slip under the knuckle immediately making for faster repetition. After doing this there was a noticeable improvement in the feel of the piano. Another thing I discovered (which you won't encounter because you have new hammers and knuckles) was that there were a couple of knuckles that were not quite round after I sanded them. This caused the jack not to slip under the knuckle cleanly during a fast repetition. It was easily fixed by re-sanding the offending knuckle to be more round. As with any mechanical device, a measured and cautious approach to things usually won't damage things and can be reversed if things don't work out. Although I recently tried to fit a new key to a lock assembly and when I pulled the barrel out five tiny springs and small metal buttons sprang up like a fountain over my bench. Total disaster - I had no way of putting it back together. Realising my limits I put everything in a bag and took it to a locksmith with my tail between my legs. ;-) He just laughed. If I had a new set of hammers for my C5 I would have no hesitation having a go at fitting them. The worst thing that could happen is I would have to get a technician in to correct "something" that was not right. But at the end of the day they are simply levers that have to be set up to move squarely and true. Any technicians reading this please don't flame me. I am no expert but I love mechanical devices and it is a lot of fun working on your own instrument.
@@DecoWorks4u i saw a guy on utube cover hammers with a sheet of carbon-copier to strike the stings. any darker/lighter mark left meant he didn't sand the hammer quite level and strings were being hit unevely so he'd slightly sand again. it seemed more apparent when he used the mutes to check the left string vs right string (in the set of 3 stinged notes). one would clearly be louder/harsher if the hammer wasn't even. he also mentioned "proper harmonics" from the strings starting to vibrate not exactly at the same time, but i couldn't hear the difference, but it makes sense. I hope u found this interesting. i reallly enjoyed ur vid
Thanks for the info Android. I think that there are a few non square hammers as a couple of notes have a metallic edge to them. When I get some time I want to go back over them and check their squareness to make sure they hit all strings at the same time. Your suggestion of using mutes sounds good. I’m going to try lifting the hammer into contact with the strings with a wire hook tool and plucking them to see if they all sound the same. I also want to have a go at voicing the hammers. I am feeling more confident to have a go now. Will do a video when I do all this.
What a fantastic video and amazing discussion board. I don't think I have seen anything like this on the net. I am going to add my story to the list and see what you guys have to suggest. Three years back I bought a nearly 100 yr old baby grand for my little girl(who was 4 yrs old at that time-- ambitious dad with big dreams). Now this old, and lovely instrument serves a dual purpose. For my daughter it is an instrument to learn music, for me an instrument to learn piano repair and restoration techniques. Needless to say some weeks the piano is out of commission for her to practice! Besides regular tuning and general cleaning I am not thinking of venturing into more ambitious project and there in I was hoping for some guidance. Last year I noticed that on several high notes, the felt on the hammers were completely worn off and that I could actually see the wood. I bought a set of old hammers from ebay and replaced the 8th octave completely. I kept the shank and flange from the old piano and just replaced the hammers. While the hammers are newer than the original and has plenty of felt left on it, they sound very muffled! Do i need to do voicing or have i got this completely wrong? I also need some help with regulation. Why does my piano require the keys to be depressed fairly down before the hammer strikes the strings? I have seen piano respond to a delicate touch, in my case I actually have to press the key hard and more than half way through before I get the sound. Is this what you are showing with let off and drop?
Hi Zubin, I am not a qualified piano technician so am not in a position to offer you any advice. I approached my piano as a mechanical mechanism and adjusted it as I felt it needed to operate properly. I didn't attempt anything that looked like it could damage the action or break something. With careful experimentation I worked out what things needed to be done. I want to have a go at voicing next and will make a video of my attempt - fingers crossed!
I am admittedly losing my mind a bit with some things, though. So many things are taking so many tries. I think I have it right & then play a certain thing & want to scream a bit at this point. THAT TINY GAP. I love you used ragtime to show the job well done.
Excellent video. There are a couple of notes in my new Yamaha S3X which sound louder than all the others (different register?). Your video seems to indicate that this is due to the hammer rising higher than the rest. Instead of the requested piano technician, they sent a piano tuner who of course couldn’t do the work. Seems I have to live with it.
Fred, you've got to be kidding! A NEW S3X and you're just going to live with it? It could be a few things but if you can hear it, there's something WRONG! What dealer did you buy it from? They owe you a properly regulated and voiced piano! Demand it! If you don't get satisfaction from the dealer, call Yamaha America directly. As far as a tuner not being able to do the work, that IS possible... BUT many fully trained piano technicians DO primarily tune pianos because that's the most common piano service that is required and requested. Piano Tuners who's ONLY skill is tuning will often refer difficult repairs, regulation and voicing etc. to full service technicians.
Good for you to explore this. Drop equals 1/16" below let off, 1/8" below the string. Aftertouch should result in hammer rising after drop to a point not higher than let off. So, on a well regulated grand, hammer rises as key is depressed. Hammer rises to let off at 1/16" from string, drops to 1/8" from string, and then rises, as key is depressed to key bottom, to 1/16" from string. Did I see drop > 1/16" and no aftertouch on the sample you showed us?
Hi Mark, very well spotted. I have since taken some advice from a contributor on the Pianoworld forum and regulated a second time taking great care to get the blow distance, let-off and drop to the figures you mention.
Need to work out the down weight and up weight of the keys to reflect the action has been regulated to say 52g (Ao key) 48g (C8 key) for example. Nowadays, friction weight can also be estimated.
Will putting hammers closer to strings make subjective feeling that keys are sligthly easier? I am wondering if there is a shorter way to string, could pianist play fast passages with less power to produce sound? Sorry on bad english
From what I have read Andrija, the repetition rate of a key is dependent on the jack adjustment. If it doesn't slip quickly and cleanly back under the hammer knuckle the key can't play the note again. Careful adjustment of this makes fast playing possible. I welcome any comments that can explain Andrija's question more clearly.
Hi Pushkar, They seemed OK to me. There were a few I had to tension the spring a bit but I didn't fiddle too much with them as I had no way to measure the spring tension. I have since bought a tension gauge used to adjust relay springs (5-10gram) and plan to go through and see if they are all uniform. I'll put this into the 2nd video when I get around to doing it.
All of these details are covered in "Piano Servicing, Tuning, and Rebuilding" by Arthur Reblitz. It is the "go to" manual for all registered piano techs.
it's 2024 now, "Pianos inside out" by Mario Igrec is the "go to" manual
Really appreciate this. The most useful video I've found so far
Thanks Geoff, glaad you found it useful 🙂
Very impressive! Very well done! Great video. Thanks
Thank you very much!
This is a great video which shows more relevant information than many others I've seen put up by people who do this for a living. I bought a smaller, used Japan built Yamaha grand piano for my daughter which she loves. it is immaculate. The only issue with it is that someone in the past did some hammer voicing badly and although the tech I have come to tune it says he can work on the hammers, like yourself I have a technical background and I have looked closely at the hammers and I am convinced that I would just keep paying for hammer work and not get the end result i'm after. I took matters into my own hands and bought a set of hammers from Yamaha. They came glued and set on the shanks which included new knuckles and flanges. So basically unscrew one hammer fit the other and re fit the screw. I know that's simplistic as the new knuckles will alter a number of parameters as it did when you cleaned up and re-shaped the ones on your piano. The hammer set I received are ready to hang as if being put on a new action during the process of manufacturing. Aside from the felt on each hammer being a later equivalent the dimensions and weight of the new hammers are identical to the original hammers. I called the tech and suggested I fit the new hammers to the action to save him time and my money. Perfectly happy to pay him for a whole day setting the action up after the hammers are hung. I am more than capable of hanging the new hammers and checking alignment with the strings and checking that the hammer positions are also correct when the soft pedal is deployed. I would replace alternate hammers first and measure and check to set the hammers in the correct position relative to the strings. Apparently I would need fairy dust and a deep knowledge of Voodoo because the new hammers could be affected by the conditions in my home and therefore the strike point might not be right because the frame dimensions vary from one instrument to another and so on. So I'm thinking after watching your video a good few times that I'll make some regulating tools as it's hard to get them where I live, install the hammers and regulate the action as you have here, plus polish the key pins and so on. I have the greatest respect for anyone who has learned a trade but I'm not one for being blinded by a few technical terms and various other fluff. I'm still waiting for a reply as to whether I should hang the hammers as apparently some research is required as having a new hammer set including shanks, knuckles and flanges is not the done thing. My daughter is 13 and wants to make a career in classical music, she works hard and I need her piano to sound great as I know it will with new hammers as I already swapped a few to see how they sounded then swapped them back. To be fair there was very little difference in let off and drop and they back checked at the same point as the original hammers as the new set are very near identical in all respects to the originals. I know I've waffled here lol. I just want to ask if there any other pit falls I could encounter beyond regulation as you have described in your video? Thank you very much. Best Regards.
Hi Tim, thanks for the feedback. I am not a piano technician so would not pretend to offer any advise. That being said, from a purely technical/mechanical perspective, your measured and cautious approach towards your action is a wise choice. I have done additional fine tuning to my action since doing the video. The main thing was setting the let-off with the action in the piano so the actual string height was used. I then took the action out and adjusted the drop again. This got things closer to the ideal. The other thing I discovered is this nebulous "after touch" parameter. After much research and then observation of the action I think I understand it now. If you slowly depress the key to the drop there is still a bit of key travel which starts to lift the hammer again. If there is too much travel before the key bottoms out you have to release the key that amount of travel again before the jack can flick back under the knuckle to play the note again. This slows down repetitive note playing. I went through all the keys and put paper shims under the keys so that at let-off the key had minimum travel to bottom out and the hammer just started to move up again. With this adjustment done, releasing the key slightly allowed the jack to slip under the knuckle immediately making for faster repetition. After doing this there was a noticeable improvement in the feel of the piano.
Another thing I discovered (which you won't encounter because you have new hammers and knuckles) was that there were a couple of knuckles that were not quite round after I sanded them. This caused the jack not to slip under the knuckle cleanly during a fast repetition. It was easily fixed by re-sanding the offending knuckle to be more round.
As with any mechanical device, a measured and cautious approach to things usually won't damage things and can be reversed if things don't work out. Although I recently tried to fit a new key to a lock assembly and when I pulled the barrel out five tiny springs and small metal buttons sprang up like a fountain over my bench. Total disaster - I had no way of putting it back together. Realising my limits I put everything in a bag and took it to a locksmith with my tail between my legs. ;-) He just laughed.
If I had a new set of hammers for my C5 I would have no hesitation having a go at fitting them. The worst thing that could happen is I would have to get a technician in to correct "something" that was not right. But at the end of the day they are simply levers that have to be set up to move squarely and true. Any technicians reading this please don't flame me. I am no expert but I love mechanical devices and it is a lot of fun working on your own instrument.
@@DecoWorks4u i saw a guy on utube cover hammers with a sheet of carbon-copier to strike the stings. any darker/lighter mark left meant he didn't sand the hammer quite level and strings were being hit unevely so he'd slightly sand again. it seemed more apparent when he used the mutes to check the left string vs right string (in the set of 3 stinged notes). one would clearly be louder/harsher if the hammer wasn't even. he also mentioned "proper harmonics" from the strings starting to vibrate not exactly at the same time, but i couldn't hear the difference, but it makes sense. I hope u found this interesting. i reallly enjoyed ur vid
Thanks for the info Android. I think that there are a few non square hammers as a couple of notes have a metallic edge to them. When I get some time I want to go back over them and check their squareness to make sure they hit all strings at the same time. Your suggestion of using mutes sounds good. I’m going to try lifting the hammer into contact with the strings with a wire hook tool and plucking them to see if they all sound the same. I also want to have a go at voicing the hammers. I am feeling more confident to have a go now. Will do a video when I do all this.
@@DecoWorks4u voicing is the scariest when i think about attempting on my own. I'll defiitely wait for ur vid. best of luck!
What a fantastic video and amazing discussion board. I don't think I have seen anything like this on the net. I am going to add my story to the list and see what you guys have to suggest. Three years back I bought a nearly 100 yr old baby grand for my little girl(who was 4 yrs old at that time-- ambitious dad with big dreams). Now this old, and lovely instrument serves a dual purpose. For my daughter it is an instrument to learn music, for me an instrument to learn piano repair and restoration techniques. Needless to say some weeks the piano is out of commission for her to practice!
Besides regular tuning and general cleaning I am not thinking of venturing into more ambitious project and there in I was hoping for some guidance. Last year I noticed that on several high notes, the felt on the hammers were completely worn off and that I could actually see the wood. I bought a set of old hammers from ebay and replaced the 8th octave completely. I kept the shank and flange from the old piano and just replaced the hammers. While the hammers are newer than the original and has plenty of felt left on it, they sound very muffled! Do i need to do voicing or have i got this completely wrong?
I also need some help with regulation. Why does my piano require the keys to be depressed fairly down before the hammer strikes the strings? I have seen piano respond to a delicate touch, in my case I actually have to press the key hard and more than half way through before I get the sound. Is this what you are showing with let off and drop?
Hi Zubin, I am not a qualified piano technician so am not in a position to offer you any advice. I approached my piano as a mechanical mechanism and adjusted it as I felt it needed to operate properly. I didn't attempt anything that looked like it could damage the action or break something. With careful experimentation I worked out what things needed to be done. I want to have a go at voicing next and will make a video of my attempt - fingers crossed!
@@daviduu2 Thanks for the reply. Looking forward to your video on next video.
Still need help?
Very helpful and clear video. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for making this. Happy New Year 2022!
Belated New Year best wishes to you as well.
Thank you for this. I'm sanding right now.
I am admittedly losing my mind a bit with some things, though. So many things are taking so many tries. I think I have it right & then play a certain thing & want to scream a bit at this point. THAT TINY GAP. I love you used ragtime to show the job well done.
Excellent video. There are a couple of notes in my new Yamaha S3X which sound louder than all the others (different register?). Your video seems to indicate that this is due to the hammer rising higher than the rest. Instead of the requested piano technician, they sent a piano tuner who of course couldn’t do the work. Seems I have to live with it.
Fred, you've got to be kidding! A NEW S3X and you're just going to live with it? It could be a few things but if you can hear it, there's something WRONG! What dealer did you buy it from? They owe you a properly regulated and voiced piano! Demand it! If you don't get satisfaction from the dealer, call Yamaha America directly.
As far as a tuner not being able to do the work, that IS possible... BUT many fully trained piano technicians DO primarily tune pianos because that's the most common piano service that is required and requested. Piano Tuners who's ONLY skill is tuning will often refer difficult repairs, regulation and voicing etc. to full service technicians.
Good for you to explore this.
Drop equals 1/16" below let off, 1/8" below the string.
Aftertouch should result in hammer rising after drop to a point not higher than let off.
So, on a well regulated grand, hammer rises as key is depressed. Hammer rises to let off at 1/16" from string, drops to 1/8" from string, and then rises, as key is depressed to key bottom, to 1/16" from string.
Did I see drop > 1/16" and no aftertouch on the sample you showed us?
Hi Mark, very well spotted. I have since taken some advice from a contributor on the Pianoworld forum and regulated a second time taking great care to get the blow distance, let-off and drop to the figures you mention.
Need to work out the down weight and up weight of the keys to reflect the action has been regulated to say 52g (Ao key) 48g (C8 key) for example. Nowadays, friction weight can also be estimated.
Will putting hammers closer to strings make subjective feeling that keys are sligthly easier? I am wondering if there is a shorter way to string, could pianist play fast passages with less power to produce sound? Sorry on bad english
From what I have read Andrija, the repetition rate of a key is dependent on the jack adjustment. If it doesn't slip quickly and cleanly back under the hammer knuckle the key can't play the note again. Careful adjustment of this makes fast playing possible. I welcome any comments that can explain Andrija's question more clearly.
Thanks for the video. What I did not see is the repetition lever adjustment. Was that not needed in your case?
Hi Pushkar, They seemed OK to me. There were a few I had to tension the spring a bit but I didn't fiddle too much with them as I had no way to measure the spring tension. I have since bought a tension gauge used to adjust relay springs (5-10gram) and plan to go through and see if they are all uniform. I'll put this into the 2nd video when I get around to doing it.
Good video !
I think if you’d have raised hammer off the rest rail at least 1/8 “ it would have made let off
And drop closer.
Your hammers need heated and straightened. They should be perfectly flat across the action
Thanks for the observation Kyle. I'll have a look at that in the next video I'm planning as an update to this video..
How did you level the keys without weights placed on the back checks?
Hi Chris, I put the hammer assembly back on after fitting paper shims to check how they all sat.
❤
"the felt was replaced" - - > was placed back
LOL - your absolutely correct - bad grammatical error intended ;-)
Is it easier to regulate a grand than an upright?
I'm sorry Max I don't know. I have never tried to regulate an upright. My guess is that the basic principle is the same.
Personally, I find uprights easier.