Sounds like "Makyo" to me. In the book "The Three Pillars of Zen" by Klapeau, in chapter visions and illusory sensations, it talks about it. And I had a time when it happened to me. I was breathing badly without going down to the body. The difference between a map and the real territory. It means that I was pretending to be doing zazen. It happens a lot by misunderstanding what it means to be attentive 👀. And it is that the mind plays you well.... And it happens to these Mindfulness instructors that leave out the being of flesh and blood that they are, although it happens or can happen to any Zen practitioner. It is a good opportunity to taste the difference. ... I know it is difficult to understand the difference.... anyway something inside your body knows it....
I don't really know where this "archetypal" redoubt comes from. Ma means "devil" and Kyo means "objective world". What I do know from experience, in my case, that it happened to me when I was in a non-dual state, but the mind was still activated and not aligned with my being of skin, flesh and bones ..... The mind accelerates by itself, without Hara and without connection to our real heart .... It is a mental experience....horrible without a doubt.... A hysteria...
In the Heart Sutra there is a line that says in part, "...no attainment with nothing to attain." On one retreat, I was having a really bad evening sit. I could not get comfortable. My back and knees were in constant pain, I couldn't breathe properly, and my mind was going in all kinds of weird and distracting directions. Suddenly the thought appeared that this experience was "no attainment, with nothing to attain." As soon as I realized that, all the pain and confusion disappeared, and I was calm, clear, and full of energy. What a night! One thing I take from this experience is that wanting to "get something" from zazen can create problems, maybe even terrible frightening experiences that do lasting harm. This is why I also do shikantaza, even though I am a member of a "koan study" school.
He does make a few good points. We have been sold this ideas of meditation being a panacea for ones ills. Ive been to therapists who endorse mindfulness now like dietitians endorse healthy eating, its a big part of their mandate suddenly without them having any idea of its effects. I remember meditating and suddenly falling into this rabbit hole of solipsism. I literally started looking around at everything thinking is any of this real, is anyone real, why should I believe any of this is as real as my mind tells me. I reached this point of paralysing terror that I couldnt have conceived of 60 minutes prior. Meditation in context to a conventional western lifestyle can be very much at odds. In one sense we are trying to let go of concepts, create distance between our conscious and the 'monkey mind' while also maintaining ones sense of self, ones identity that has to function within a context of our environment and that has to maintain a degree of relative sanity. This is the kind of tightrope we were walking at times.
There is the saying "pain is a door, go through it". In other words: if painful issues come up during meditation, maybe we shouldn't label them as "negative side effects", but actually welcome them.
I appreciate that you cover this topic on a regular basis. I’m fairly new to meditation (2 yrs) and I had one of those terrifying incidents. It scared me off my cushion for two months. In speaking with a friend, who is a Zen priest, she help me understand what may have happened. I got back on my cushion and things have been fine. My practice is the same and I certainly don’t anticipate having this happen again.
I've been meditating since I was 23 so 14 years now and I've never once had that happen WHILE meditating; however, I was diagnosed with a panic disorder (having multiple panic attacks per day) and that kind of sounds like a panic attack. I should note though... I think the instructions, intention and understanding about how one is suppose to meditate could definitely contribute to this occurrence. I don't think it's associated with meditation though - I know a lot of existentialists wrote about this kind of thing happening to them and, as far as I know, they didn't meditate.
Loosing one self - the sense of self- can be sometimes a fearful experience. Breath deeply in out from the diaphragm, and open up with a big mental smile while repeating the mantra: Thanks, Thanks, Thanks.
If I were Ziggy, I probably wouldn't want to leave that particularly comfortable-looking cushion, either. He's just trying to help -- by practicing Shikan-paws-a. P.S. -- I read the first chapter of your Zen of Godzilla book on your blog, and I really enjoyed it! Thank you for sharing that wish us.
Thanks! I can never tell what criteria Ziggy uses to choose whether to stay inside or not. Sometimes it's too hot. I get that. But other times, like today, it's not hot at all (at least at the time I'm making the video).
I’m glad you touch on in the idea that the commercial, unreligious versions of practice lacks a framework for when the meditation inevitably leads to the deep imbedded stuff that everyone has waiting inside. This is something I’ve heard you address in more detail in other UA-cams…I think that penetrating the deep scary stuff, slowly or more forcefully, is the point of practice, and requires full-on support. Either via a traditional religious-y setting (widely available, nearly free of cost) or via a squad of trauma specialists standing by at meditation centers and retreats, in the science-y version (fee based, with a price point as high as the market will bear, and something I’ve never seen at any retreat or meditation I’ve attended).
This reminded me of a caution in an "introduction to Buddhist practice" class at a temple in this area. The Abbot advised that some people with emotional/mental health issues may not find zazen suitable for this reason and military veterans, especially those who had seen combat, may find sitting still being quiet aggrivates PTSD
It seems the author may have deeper issues buried away. And meditation opened up the floodgates to expose them. In a sense, this was a blessing and now allows the individual to truly address the real issues at hand. And fully agreed, peak experiences could lead to abreactions, depending on ones expectations. I have experienced some that have left me whimpering in confusion and fears as well. But I embraced them as spring boards towards further exploration. Oh well. Great topic, by the way, mahalo! 🤙
That kind of horrid experiences do not come out of practicing correctly mindfulness but by a complete misunderstanding. People don’t seem to get into their heads that mindfulness needs to be learnt and practice in reliable Buddhist environments. No long ago a very articulate, experienced, important Tibetan Rinpoche refused to teach mindfulness . He stated that mindfulness could only be taught when one was more advance in Buddhist practice. I was really surprised to hear something like that. But now at the hearing of more people reporting experiences that they’re unable to handle. I can see that the Rimpoche raised a good point. There is a sutra (can’t remember the tittle right now) in which warns about when a teaching is applied as twisted it becomes like one taking an snake while thinking it was a rope. People who have learnt to practice mindfulness by reading, Internet or some kind of therapist, must be aware that mindfulness is a very very powerful tool in the Buddhist practice in general and in Zen Buddhism in the TNH tradition is number one tool. Thinking that by applying mindfulness one is going to experience at all times a kind of relaxing state it will be looking for disappointment. For mindfulness will be bringing on the surface whatever is there hidden in one sooner or later. Awakening is a little bit painful process. Be present there with whatever arises in one if what arises is unpleasant mindfulness will take care of that. But while taking care of that the unpleasant sensation, feeling, emotion, physical pain....will be felt as very much enhanced. And that is an excellent sign for mindfulness will be at work in healing and transformation.
In most conventional Tibetan Buddhist approaches to teaching Buddhism, meditation is seen as an advanced practice. One starts with more ritual practices: mandala offerings, mantra, guru yoga etc. My Vajrayana Lama, however, teaches meditation. Presented in Tantric container, its presentation is full of scary and wrathful imagery. Google e.g. Dorje Phurba, Dorje Tröllo, Khroda Kali etc. There are also a lot of references to the practice of chöd, where you offer you body for demons and ghosts to be released from karmic attachments. Despite these things, Tibetan mediation in practice is surprisingly gentle. But it is not always comfortable; and its surrounding symbolism states: this is a matter of life and death. You have been warned.
Something that you did not mention in the video: Are these kinds of experiences necessary or valuable in their own right as tools for learning and going further on your path, or are they rather just hindrances that can and should be avoided?
I think the "party line" in Soto style Zen Buddhism is that these kinds of experiences aren't really necessary and often just get in the way. Having said that, they do happen, and it's good to address the matter. You can learn from them, just like you can learn from anything that happens. The problem with so-called "mystical experiences" is that people often come up with wild interpretations. This is where having a good teacher can be really useful.
I do not see the problem only in the secularization of knowledge..... And even less so when the scientific is surrounded by the aura of dogma of faith. But it is arrogant disregard for other very appropriate ways of knowing from one's own experience what it really means to be a human being. "These Romans are clueless," Asterix
Brad there is an American Buddhist Scholar called Robert Sharf and he is also a Hosso Priest, he`s great friends with a Tibetan Tulku called Khyentse Rinpoche and they are both "critical Buddhists" who are very critical of "modern secular Buddhism " and they both hate Mindfulness meditation and of course the other person who is Buddhist Scholar in the same field is Bernard Faure . I would love to see you do a video on these guys sometime if you could and Thank You very much for your teachings
Maybe it'll happen if I ever meet them. I wouldn't say I hate mindfulness. I think it can be useful. I just think it needs more research and development.
Thanks for this and the others dealing with the pitfalls of meditation. I think he had a point, I did Shikantaza, and had a weird struggle with what looked like demonic Indian demigods dancing in the patterns of the carpet in the zendo. Luckily in Dokusan I mentioned this, and the Roshii actually discussed it during the tensho later that day. He explained you'd see these things, that Makyo was wrestling with you in your mind (I'm paraphrasing here) and that it meant you were really close to a breakthrough, and to keep going. He was right in every way. I don't know how I would've reacted on my own, maybe thinking i was headed to an evil place and given up, who knows. Things happen the way they do, in the way they do it. If it could happen any other way it would. Comforting thoughts.
Thanks, Brad. It should also be noted that meditation is not recommended for people who have psychotic episodes. At one retreat (no names), we had a woman go into her own world with aliens coming to set us free. She somehow attached herself to me and so I went through a great deal with her. It was terrifying to be part of this madness. PS I did return to retreats with you at Mount Baldy. Looking forward to do another one.
How awful!!! It sounds EXACTLY like being forced to babysit someone through a bad trip back in the day of legal recreational hallucingens (aka DAY OF THE HIPPIES), thus not only ruining your own trip, but putting everyone else at risk of being caught up in a world of demons, monsters, and the like.
Wow I’ve had this exact experience on psychedelics before. It was terrible! I have digested it now, it’s extra comforting to know that it happens to others but not all as well.
Throughout history we have had meditators gone wrong, e.g. false prophets some even could perform miracles. Surangama sutra tells much about it. Master sheng yen said a meditator might have gone off track when: 1. Sexually immoral despite meditation. 2. Increasingly "demanding" for power over other people. 3. etc (sorry i forget other parts )
Thanks Brad for an honest, well balanced overview of this topic....Bringing science back into the mix, for just a moment, here are some initial thoughts: The person's description sounds like a Psychotic episode, possibly a Night Terror. It isn't uncommon for people with no history of mental illness to have a 'first break" without warning, though more often than not, extreme stressors are an usual precipitator....Is intensive concentration of the kind described before the incident a qualifier? Likely. Secondly, Dissociation is not that different from what others might describe as an "Enlightenment" experience, though the vantage through which these two constructs are understood to the self are dramatically different. Finally, IMHO our instant-gratification gimme-now society (sing with me: "Gimme, Gimme, Gimme, I want some more! Gimme, gimme, gimme, Don't know what for"-Black Flag) has in a large part to blame for thinking that meditation is a panacea to all ills. It's as inane as any get-rich-quick, lose-weight without-exercise, or pop a pill and euphoria beckons type thinking. Meditation is work. It is gradual. And our collected reams of mental garbage will inevitably be a part of sifting through toward a better self. Its a known risk. Nothing worthwhile was ever easy, guaranteed, or without set back. This is a far cry from proclaiming meditation and mindfulness as a fraudulent danger to the psyche.
Loosing one self, the sense of self can be a fearful experience, but that is the threshold we must go though. Breath deeply from the diaphragm and open up with a mental all embracing smile.
Thanks for sharing So crucial as you say don’t rush take it slow. It easy to fall into the trap of end gaining and being too intense. Relaxation or Sung is critical to the safe navigation of these practices imho.
I have recently experienced the sensation of vertigo when I sit zazen. And this has brought fear into my daily meditations. I now have a building dread of this feeling and have been unconsciously limiting my sitting times and frequency of sitting. Whether or not this is common, or has it's roots in some (dietary) chemical or emotional imbalance I don't know, but I am determined to get past it. There really is enough to fear in this life without compounding my concerns with an irrational sensation my mind has created.
I have been comparing Fukan Zazengi translations and the older Chan text that Dogen used for inspiration, and the funny thing is the older text warns about negative effects. Dogen himself conveniently leaves out the negative effects, lol :)
Do you think experiences like that are what Huang Po talks about when he talks about some people being afraid of the "Void"? As in, perhaps, realizing or noticing the "emptiness" of Universal Mind can be a shocking experience if you are expecting mind to be "full" or populated with forms and pleasure of some kind?
I think there's definitely some crossover between what's clinically called "depersonalization" and satori experiences. They're not the same thing, but I have no doubt that similar parts of the brain are being tickled. Maybe it is just a case of what the LSD folks call "set and setting." Maybe it's down to what you expect and what you're looking for - what your surrounding culture prepares you for, even. If you don't expect it, perhaps it seems like insanity - or perhaps the danger is of some kind of runaway version of the same process, if the experience comes unbidden and as a shock to the system. At any rate, surely what's being talked about here has something to do with the idea of a boundary between self and other, and it does seem like there's a part of the brain that deals with that. There's a rather delicious irony here: if the brain didn't have that (imaginary) barrier, you'd pretty quickly get (in a trope) eaten by a tiger. And then there would be no possibility of the ecstatic experience of the dissolution of that barrier :) On the other hand, the (imaginary) barrier is fine, there's nothing _wrong_ with it, and it doesn't _have_ to be broken down for any particular metaphysical reason. Only the sufferer feels the itch of discomfort, and for him the breakdown is medicine.
I wonder if this is some sort of clinging to identity (ie. fear of oblivion or madness). I get the impression that some people take to meditation with a kung fu attitude of "I will make the necessary effort to transform myself into an enlightened master" - and thus meditation becomes a load of stuff that is done (concentration, visualisation, special breathing etc) in order to ameliorate themselves. Whereas a plunge into the void actually means death - or at least an end to self. Why on earth would anyone in their right mind do such a thing? A theory of self (and suffering) at least may actually be necessary to the practise of meditation (and science may be able to help here) - maybe we need some kind of guidance as to what meditation is - as to why there can be no goal.
What the writer of the article described sounded like an intense version of noticing the illusory nature of self. To actually realize that self is neither solid, permanent, separate, continuous or defined; is very bewildering. Especially with that sort of high-energy vipassana practice, things are likely to explode in violent ways.
Realizing the illusory nature of self is what I’ve been striving to attain for a few years. I’ve had glimpses, but nothing more. Maybe I should switch to vipassana retreats, huh?
Things can go weird when meditating, the right veiw needs to be understood before hand and "western" meditation doesnt account for that. A solid non dual veiw that goes beyond monisim is vital.
i mean, i dont wanna be "that guy" but...it sounds like this person had a panic attack. a particularly bad panic attack, but a panic attack nonetheless. i feel for the author, because panic attacks suck...but i started having them as a teenager, long before i knew anything about buddhism or ever meditated. it sucks that they had that experience, but i feel like putting out a hit piece on all of buddhism and basically underhandedly implying that western buddhism is some kind of appropriative money grabbing scheme that will leave you traumatized is...a bit much.
It's an interesting point. It's impossible to say for sure if meditation *caused* his night of terror. On the other hand, it's been known for centuries that these sorts of things happen to lots of those of us who meditate. They don't tend to happen all the time, or to everyone. But it's a common occurrence.
Some of his symptoms are similar to those of night terror and sleep paralysis (sleep disorders): exhaustion, restlessness, rapid breathing, body shaking, bodily tingles/vibrations, fear, terror, immobilization, trying to escape. His meditation retreat may or may not be what caused his experience, either wholly or partially.
Buddhism is a double razor. If taught by ignorance could actually cause a great deal of damage. The problem often is that the most ignorant is our state of mind the less discernment we have to distinguish real dharma from deceitful dharma.
I have had a similar experience as him but I do agree that the allegations on Western Buddhist institutions is a little excessive and in my opinion, somewhat irrelevant.
How long should I meditate? Many sources claim that twenty minutes or more, but after quarter my legs become numb and I need a few minutes to solve this problem and walking without discomfort. I use a half-lotus posture. I know that many teachers are liberal in the issue of body position (for example Seungsahn), yet the time seems more important.
The author sounds passive-aggressive to me....maybe he needs a teacher who is also simply a friend. Souns like he was encouraged to "get somewhere", the opposite of the soto path. My own analogue is that I did 6 years of intensive est-related courses before I started zen. In the est courses I experienced "enlightenment" (really) basically in every course I did. But it would "wear off". Once there was shaking, energy flowing and so on. It was a great "high", but that wore off too. Luckily at that point I met a good teacher, who started me sitting. He was also my Aikido teacher, not an official master, but there was immediately a lot of trust, and we became close friends. When I met him I immediately stopped with all est stuff, as this was clearly "the real thing". Since then I've done several decades of daily shikan-taza basically. One or two sesshins per year at the beginning, sadly no time for that recently... "Enlightenment" has no further interest. The intense stuff is ironically superficial and goes away. So what? Further, I gradually realized that some of the est organization could be abusive, and had cult-like aspects (so much so that it gave me a lot of understanding of cult victims from Scientology to Trump, the Moonies and Q). There are tricks that can get you "high" and be dangerous. Thank God I found a good teacher. Though later I did meet some "masters" I didn't admire. If you are on your own, listen to Brad or to Suzuki Roshi's lectures and you can't go wrong! I never went through that sort of terror described in the article in zen. Maybe because I had gotten that out of my system with enough bad experiences in est, and then I had encountered a soto-type path. Slow is better! "Nothing happens!" exactly! and it happens very slowly....and that is ALL you actually, genuinely need. Who are we? Why are we here? To cause more problems for ourselves? Maybe to see and love the beauty of this precious life, this fragile world, this profoundly present moment....
the problem with meditation, apart from thrombosis, is you are being introduced to the notion you are insane you need some sort of context of the world and yourself being insane, the best literature gives this context, but of course most people only read junk and get so traumatised by meditation that they do all these stupid practices/ guided/ music/ theological nonsense /whatever to avoid seeing themselves and life as crazy because they lack the context to handle it "contemplative work" is "discovery" and what you find, why this never seems to be done and people rely on theological or other templates instead of their own work is beyond me. its like a different species, one so stupid in this respect you can cut it, interestingly most are like this also in health matters, its so bad i think there are biological blinders in place here
Hey Brad didya ever look into teaching at a college or an online courses college you'd be brilliant it might be a good source of income I feel you'd connect well with young people 🧙📚🫖
@@HardcoreZen do you have paperwork showing your transmission and ordination your publishing should count some schools could be looking for someone like you there's a teacher shortage and you could be the only Buddhist that applies give it a whirl 🐞🌮🎋🎏📿
@@HardcoreZen You might be surprised Brad. I've guest lectured at London University and the American University in London on Buddhism and Zen. What's required by such educational institutions, in the UK and Europe at any rate, is more that you have a verifiable background in Zen for example and have been authorized to teach, to some extent at least. That's for courses that are more focused on the practical, rather than the academic though. It's a different kind of context to a traditional zendo/Zen teacher one of course, which I found to be interesting and rewarding for short periods but not something I'd necessarily recommend long term.
Seems unfair to blame meditation for his episode. People have similar experiences without any meditation. However, if a person has something like this waiting to come to the surface, meditation could possibly spark it, right?
It sounds like this person had a confluence of experiences and factors that affected them negatively and that they may other issues that need a mental health professional’s attention. Plus, this sounds like an article that really is not an ‘article,’ but something written for the internet. Also, I have a few issues with the Western Mindfulness movement. Finally, I am of the opinion that he had teachers that served him weak tea. Yes, I’ve had intense experiences and good teachers that provided sound guidance. Your advice on taking things slowly is great. Now, I have to go and be a parent. Later
Brad, you seem have some issue with Sam Harris. You have mentioned him in few of your videos rolling the eyes. What's your issue with Sam Harris exactly?
I agree. Sam Harris and the new atheist militant types come across as very arrogant despite being hypocrites. Hypocrites in that, they judge religion as evil. Despite the fact that the very definition of evil they judge religion with, is actually a religious definition. As anyone versed in philosophy knows, that science has no clear observable grasp on evil. You can’t point to it with a microscope and say ‘There! That’s evil’
You know, you don't need "scientific chanting". There's a lot to philosophy and ritual that don't really need "direct scientific reasons". On the other hand not all "research and development" yields good or beneficial results, and some may simply be bad. I don't see the same tension between science and buddhism that you seem to experience. Science is about objectively observable reality (yes, you can argue about "objectivity" too), buddhism is about subjectively experienced reality. In the end, they are one and the same. Science works by observing reality. Buddhism works by observing reality. Some of the methods may differ, but the the tools and delusions are the same.
If we reality is the result of our perception, something must be observed to exist, and all humans are unique in their perceptions, is there anything we can call objective reality?
@@notpub, in sociological phenomenology, often the term "intersubjectivity" is used to stress the interrelatedness and constructivity of the field of inter-being, based on sharing the "eminent reality" of the "life-world" (A. Schütz). If interested in more details, P.L. Berger/T. Luckman, "The Social Construction of Reality" (New York, 1966) might be a good introductory reader.
@@gunterappoldt3037 interesting, thank you! What is your take? Is there anything we can call reality, objectively? And if yes, can you please provide an example? Also, is reality dependent on observation of some kind?
Sounds like "Makyo" to me. In the book "The Three Pillars of Zen" by Klapeau, in chapter visions and illusory sensations, it talks about it. And I had a time when it happened to me. I was breathing badly without going down to the body.
The difference between a map and the real territory. It means that I was pretending to be doing zazen. It happens a lot by misunderstanding what it means to be attentive 👀.
And it is that the mind plays you well....
And it happens to these Mindfulness instructors that leave out the being of flesh and blood that they are, although it happens or can happen to any Zen practitioner. It is a good opportunity to taste the difference.
... I know it is difficult to understand the difference.... anyway something inside your body knows it....
I don't really know where this "archetypal" redoubt comes from. Ma means "devil" and Kyo means "objective world".
What I do know from experience, in my case, that it happened to me when I was in a non-dual state, but the mind was still activated and not aligned with my being of skin, flesh and bones .....
The mind accelerates by itself, without Hara and without connection to our real heart ....
It is a mental experience....horrible without a doubt.... A hysteria...
In the Heart Sutra there is a line that says in part, "...no attainment with nothing to attain." On one retreat, I was having a really bad evening sit. I could not get comfortable. My back and knees were in constant pain, I couldn't breathe properly, and my mind was going in all kinds of weird and distracting directions. Suddenly the thought appeared that this experience was "no attainment, with nothing to attain." As soon as I realized that, all the pain and confusion disappeared, and I was calm, clear, and full of energy. What a night! One thing I take from this experience is that wanting to "get something" from zazen can create problems, maybe even terrible frightening experiences that do lasting harm. This is why I also do shikantaza, even though I am a member of a "koan study" school.
That line resonates deeply with me as well. It's really hard not to want or attain something but I really feel that deep truth. Sometimes :)
He does make a few good points. We have been sold this ideas of meditation being a panacea for ones ills. Ive been to therapists who endorse mindfulness now like dietitians endorse healthy eating, its a big part of their mandate suddenly without them having any idea of its effects. I remember meditating and suddenly falling into this rabbit hole of solipsism. I literally started looking around at everything thinking is any of this real, is anyone real, why should I believe any of this is as real as my mind tells me. I reached this point of paralysing terror that I couldnt have conceived of 60 minutes prior.
Meditation in context to a conventional western lifestyle can be very much at odds. In one sense we are trying to let go of concepts, create distance between our conscious and the 'monkey mind' while also maintaining ones sense of self, ones identity that has to function within a context of our environment and that has to maintain a degree of relative sanity. This is the kind of tightrope we were walking at times.
Thank you!
There is the saying "pain is a door, go through it". In other words: if painful issues come up during meditation, maybe we shouldn't label them as "negative side effects", but actually welcome them.
Agreed. 👍
I try to face them and focus on my breath until the things go away or drift to something else.
I appreciate that you cover this topic on a regular basis. I’m fairly new to meditation (2 yrs) and I had one of those terrifying incidents. It scared me off my cushion for two months. In speaking with a friend, who is a Zen priest, she help me understand what may have happened. I got back on my cushion and things have been fine. My practice is the same and I certainly don’t anticipate having this happen again.
Thanks for this Jenna!
I've been meditating since I was 23 so 14 years now and I've never once had that happen WHILE meditating; however, I was diagnosed with a panic disorder (having multiple panic attacks per day) and that kind of sounds like a panic attack. I should note though... I think the instructions, intention and understanding about how one is suppose to meditate could definitely contribute to this occurrence. I don't think it's associated with meditation though - I know a lot of existentialists wrote about this kind of thing happening to them and, as far as I know, they didn't meditate.
Loosing one self - the sense of self- can be sometimes a fearful experience. Breath deeply in out from the diaphragm, and open up with a big mental smile while repeating the mantra: Thanks, Thanks, Thanks.
Maybe they could chant the periodic table.
If I were Ziggy, I probably wouldn't want to leave that particularly comfortable-looking cushion, either. He's just trying to help -- by practicing Shikan-paws-a.
P.S. -- I read the first chapter of your Zen of Godzilla book on your blog, and I really enjoyed it! Thank you for sharing that wish us.
Thanks! I can never tell what criteria Ziggy uses to choose whether to stay inside or not. Sometimes it's too hot. I get that. But other times, like today, it's not hot at all (at least at the time I'm making the video).
I’m glad you touch on in the idea that the commercial, unreligious versions of practice lacks a framework for when the meditation inevitably leads to the deep imbedded stuff that everyone has waiting inside. This is something I’ve heard you address in more detail in other UA-cams…I think that penetrating the deep scary stuff, slowly or more forcefully, is the point of practice, and requires full-on support. Either via a traditional religious-y setting (widely available, nearly free of cost) or via a squad of trauma specialists standing by at meditation centers and retreats, in the science-y version (fee based, with a price point as high as the market will bear, and something I’ve never seen at any retreat or meditation I’ve attended).
This reminded me of a caution in an "introduction to Buddhist practice" class at a temple in this area. The Abbot advised that some people with emotional/mental health issues may not find zazen suitable for this reason and military veterans, especially those who had seen combat, may find sitting still being quiet aggrivates PTSD
It seems the author may have deeper issues buried away. And meditation opened up the floodgates to expose them. In a sense, this was a blessing and now allows the individual to truly address the real issues at hand.
And fully agreed, peak experiences could lead to abreactions, depending on ones expectations.
I have experienced some that have left me whimpering in confusion and fears as well. But I embraced them as spring boards towards further exploration.
Oh well. Great topic, by the way, mahalo! 🤙
That kind of horrid experiences do not come out of practicing correctly mindfulness but by a complete misunderstanding. People don’t seem to get into their heads that mindfulness needs to be learnt and practice in reliable Buddhist environments. No long ago a very articulate, experienced, important Tibetan Rinpoche refused to teach mindfulness . He stated that mindfulness could only be taught when one was more advance in Buddhist practice. I was really surprised to hear something like that. But now at the hearing of more people reporting experiences that they’re unable to handle. I can see that the Rimpoche raised a good point. There is a sutra (can’t remember the tittle right now) in which warns about when a teaching is applied as twisted it becomes like one taking an snake while thinking it was a rope.
People who have learnt to practice mindfulness by reading, Internet or some kind of therapist, must be aware that mindfulness is a very very powerful tool in the Buddhist practice in general and in Zen Buddhism in the TNH tradition is number one tool. Thinking that by applying mindfulness one is going to experience at all times a kind of relaxing state it will be looking for disappointment. For mindfulness will be bringing on the surface whatever is there hidden in one sooner or later. Awakening is a little bit painful process. Be present there with whatever arises in one if what arises is unpleasant mindfulness will take care of that. But while taking care of that the unpleasant sensation, feeling, emotion, physical pain....will be felt as very much enhanced. And that is an excellent sign for mindfulness will be at work in healing and transformation.
In most conventional Tibetan Buddhist approaches to teaching Buddhism, meditation is seen as an advanced practice. One starts with more ritual practices: mandala offerings, mantra, guru yoga etc.
My Vajrayana Lama, however, teaches meditation. Presented in Tantric container, its presentation is full of scary and wrathful imagery. Google e.g. Dorje Phurba, Dorje Tröllo, Khroda Kali etc. There are also a lot of references to the practice of chöd, where you offer you body for demons and ghosts to be released from karmic attachments.
Despite these things, Tibetan mediation in practice is surprisingly gentle. But it is not always comfortable; and its surrounding symbolism states: this is a matter of life and death. You have been warned.
Something that you did not mention in the video: Are these kinds of experiences necessary or valuable in their own right as tools for learning and going further on your path, or are they rather just hindrances that can and should be avoided?
I think the "party line" in Soto style Zen Buddhism is that these kinds of experiences aren't really necessary and often just get in the way. Having said that, they do happen, and it's good to address the matter. You can learn from them, just like you can learn from anything that happens. The problem with so-called "mystical experiences" is that people often come up with wild interpretations. This is where having a good teacher can be really useful.
Cthulhu Zen:
Sheer Terror = Meditation
Cosmic Horror = Enlightenment
Gibbering Insanity = Nirvana
I do not see the problem only in the secularization of knowledge.....
And even less so when the scientific is surrounded by the aura of dogma of faith.
But it is arrogant disregard for other very appropriate ways of knowing from one's own experience what it really means to be a human being.
"These Romans are clueless," Asterix
Brad there is an American Buddhist Scholar called Robert Sharf and he is also a Hosso Priest, he`s great friends with a Tibetan Tulku called Khyentse Rinpoche and they are both "critical Buddhists" who are very critical of "modern secular Buddhism " and they both hate Mindfulness meditation and of course the other person who is Buddhist Scholar in the same field is Bernard Faure . I would love to see you do a video on these guys sometime if you could and Thank You very much for your teachings
Maybe it'll happen if I ever meet them. I wouldn't say I hate mindfulness. I think it can be useful. I just think it needs more research and development.
be here now do no harm help others be still close eyes listen to your breathing self liberate by present awareness.
Thanks for this and the others dealing with the pitfalls of meditation. I think he had a point, I did Shikantaza, and had a weird struggle with what looked like demonic Indian demigods dancing in the patterns of the carpet in the zendo. Luckily in Dokusan I mentioned this, and the Roshii actually discussed it during the tensho later that day. He explained you'd see these things, that Makyo was wrestling with you in your mind (I'm paraphrasing here) and that it meant you were really close to a breakthrough, and to keep going. He was right in every way. I don't know how I would've reacted on my own, maybe thinking i was headed to an evil place and given up, who knows. Things happen the way they do, in the way they do it. If it could happen any other way it would. Comforting thoughts.
Surangama sutra is a must read for meditators. Mahayanis said so to me. As a theravadin, i thank them for the valuable advice.
Surangama sutra tells us that meditation does bring harm. Many types of harm.
Thanks, Brad. It should also be noted that meditation is not recommended for people who have psychotic episodes. At one retreat (no names), we had a woman go into her own world with aliens coming to set us free. She somehow attached herself to me and so I went through a great deal with her. It was terrifying to be part of this madness. PS I did return to retreats with you at Mount Baldy. Looking forward to do another one.
How awful!!! It sounds EXACTLY like being forced to babysit someone through a bad trip back in the day of legal recreational hallucingens (aka DAY OF THE HIPPIES), thus not only ruining your own trip, but putting everyone else at risk of being caught up in a world of demons, monsters, and the like.
Wow I’ve had this exact experience on psychedelics before. It was terrible! I have digested it now, it’s extra comforting to know that it happens to others but not all as well.
All zazen does is get you to notice what is already there
So glad I found your channel
Throughout history we have had meditators gone wrong, e.g. false prophets some even could perform miracles. Surangama sutra tells much about it. Master sheng yen said a meditator might have gone off track when:
1. Sexually immoral despite meditation.
2. Increasingly "demanding" for power over other people.
3. etc (sorry i forget other parts )
Thanks Brad for an honest, well balanced overview of this topic....Bringing science back into the mix, for just a moment, here are some initial thoughts: The person's description sounds like a Psychotic episode, possibly a Night Terror. It isn't uncommon for people with no history of mental illness to have a 'first break" without warning, though more often than not, extreme stressors are an usual precipitator....Is intensive concentration of the kind described before the incident a qualifier? Likely. Secondly, Dissociation is not that different from what others might describe as an "Enlightenment" experience, though the vantage through which these two constructs are understood to the self are dramatically different. Finally, IMHO our instant-gratification gimme-now society (sing with me: "Gimme, Gimme, Gimme, I want some more! Gimme, gimme, gimme, Don't know what for"-Black Flag) has in a large part to blame for thinking that meditation is a panacea to all ills. It's as inane as any get-rich-quick, lose-weight without-exercise, or pop a pill and euphoria beckons type thinking. Meditation is work. It is gradual. And our collected reams of mental garbage will inevitably be a part of sifting through toward a better self. Its a known risk. Nothing worthwhile was ever easy, guaranteed, or without set back. This is a far cry from proclaiming meditation and mindfulness as a fraudulent danger to the psyche.
True!
Loosing one self, the sense of self can be a fearful experience, but that is the threshold we must go though. Breath deeply from the diaphragm and open up with a mental all embracing smile.
Thanks for sharing
So crucial as you say don’t rush take it slow. It easy to fall into the trap of end gaining and being too intense. Relaxation or Sung is critical to the safe navigation of these practices imho.
I have recently experienced the sensation of vertigo when I sit zazen. And this has brought fear into my daily meditations. I now have a building dread of this feeling and have been unconsciously limiting my sitting times and frequency of sitting.
Whether or not this is common, or has it's roots in some (dietary) chemical or emotional imbalance I don't know, but I am determined to get past it.
There really is enough to fear in this life without compounding my concerns with an irrational sensation my mind has created.
I have been comparing Fukan Zazengi translations and the older Chan text that Dogen used for inspiration, and the funny thing is the older text warns about negative effects. Dogen himself conveniently leaves out the negative effects, lol :)
Cool story bro.
Do you think experiences like that are what Huang Po talks about when he talks about some people being afraid of the "Void"? As in, perhaps, realizing or noticing the "emptiness" of Universal Mind can be a shocking experience if you are expecting mind to be "full" or populated with forms and pleasure of some kind?
I think there's definitely some crossover between what's clinically called "depersonalization" and satori experiences. They're not the same thing, but I have no doubt that similar parts of the brain are being tickled. Maybe it is just a case of what the LSD folks call "set and setting." Maybe it's down to what you expect and what you're looking for - what your surrounding culture prepares you for, even. If you don't expect it, perhaps it seems like insanity - or perhaps the danger is of some kind of runaway version of the same process, if the experience comes unbidden and as a shock to the system.
At any rate, surely what's being talked about here has something to do with the idea of a boundary between self and other, and it does seem like there's a part of the brain that deals with that. There's a rather delicious irony here: if the brain didn't have that (imaginary) barrier, you'd pretty quickly get (in a trope) eaten by a tiger. And then there would be no possibility of the ecstatic experience of the dissolution of that barrier :) On the other hand, the (imaginary) barrier is fine, there's nothing _wrong_ with it, and it doesn't _have_ to be broken down for any particular metaphysical reason. Only the sufferer feels the itch of discomfort, and for him the breakdown is medicine.
I wonder if this is some sort of clinging to identity (ie. fear of oblivion or madness).
I get the impression that some people take to meditation with a kung fu attitude of "I will make the necessary effort to transform myself into an enlightened master" - and thus meditation becomes a load of stuff that is done (concentration, visualisation, special breathing etc) in order to ameliorate themselves.
Whereas a plunge into the void actually means death - or at least an end to self. Why on earth would anyone in their right mind do such a thing?
A theory of self (and suffering) at least may actually be necessary to the practise of meditation (and science may be able to help here) - maybe we need some kind of guidance as to what meditation is - as to why there can be no goal.
What the writer of the article described sounded like an intense version of noticing the illusory nature of self. To actually realize that self is neither solid, permanent, separate, continuous or defined; is very bewildering.
Especially with that sort of high-energy vipassana practice, things are likely to explode in violent ways.
Realizing the illusory nature of self is what I’ve been striving to attain for a few years. I’ve had glimpses, but nothing more. Maybe I should switch to vipassana retreats, huh?
@@edgepixel8467 If you start twisting and shuddering they might promote you to best meditator (which in includes rights to a special cell)
Things can go weird when meditating, the right veiw needs to be understood before hand and "western" meditation doesnt account for that. A solid non dual veiw that goes beyond monisim is vital.
i mean, i dont wanna be "that guy" but...it sounds like this person had a panic attack. a particularly bad panic attack, but a panic attack nonetheless. i feel for the author, because panic attacks suck...but i started having them as a teenager, long before i knew anything about buddhism or ever meditated. it sucks that they had that experience, but i feel like putting out a hit piece on all of buddhism and basically underhandedly implying that western buddhism is some kind of appropriative money grabbing scheme that will leave you traumatized is...a bit much.
It's an interesting point. It's impossible to say for sure if meditation *caused* his night of terror. On the other hand, it's been known for centuries that these sorts of things happen to lots of those of us who meditate. They don't tend to happen all the time, or to everyone. But it's a common occurrence.
Some of his symptoms are similar to those of night terror and sleep paralysis (sleep disorders): exhaustion, restlessness, rapid breathing, body shaking, bodily tingles/vibrations, fear, terror, immobilization, trying to escape.
His meditation retreat may or may not be what caused his experience, either wholly or partially.
Buddhism is a double razor. If taught by ignorance could actually cause a great deal of damage. The problem often is that the most ignorant is our state of mind the less discernment we have to distinguish real dharma from deceitful dharma.
Well said!!!
I have had a similar experience as him but I do agree that the allegations on Western Buddhist institutions is a little excessive and in my opinion, somewhat irrelevant.
Who's punching the puncher?
What a trip.
Thanks Brad always great content.
Good question!
Where’s the target?😂
How long should I meditate? Many sources claim that twenty minutes or more, but after quarter my legs become numb and I need a few minutes to solve this problem and walking without discomfort. I use a half-lotus posture. I know that many teachers are liberal in the issue of body position (for example Seungsahn), yet the time seems more important.
The author sounds passive-aggressive to me....maybe he needs a teacher who is also simply a friend. Souns like he was encouraged to "get somewhere", the opposite of the soto path.
My own analogue is that I did 6 years of intensive est-related courses before I started zen.
In the est courses I experienced "enlightenment" (really) basically in every course I did. But it would "wear off".
Once there was shaking, energy flowing and so on. It was a great "high", but that wore off too.
Luckily at that point I met a good teacher, who started me sitting.
He was also my Aikido teacher, not an official master, but there was immediately a lot of trust, and we became close friends.
When I met him I immediately stopped with all est stuff, as this was clearly "the real thing". Since then I've done several decades of daily shikan-taza basically. One or two sesshins per year at the beginning, sadly no time for that recently...
"Enlightenment" has no further interest. The intense stuff is ironically superficial and goes away. So what? Further, I gradually realized that some of the est organization could be abusive, and had cult-like aspects (so much so that it gave me a lot of understanding of cult victims from Scientology to Trump, the Moonies and Q). There are tricks that can get you "high" and be dangerous.
Thank God I found a good teacher. Though later I did meet some "masters" I didn't admire.
If you are on your own, listen to Brad or to Suzuki Roshi's lectures and you can't go wrong!
I never went through that sort of terror described in the article in zen. Maybe because I had gotten that out of my system with enough bad experiences in est, and then I had encountered a soto-type path. Slow is better! "Nothing happens!" exactly! and it happens very slowly....and that is ALL you actually, genuinely need. Who are we? Why are we here? To cause more problems for ourselves? Maybe to see and love the beauty of this precious life, this fragile world, this profoundly present moment....
What is est?
@@jonathanhansson804
Probably this: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training
I would have thought, perhaps I'm incorrect, that if you're trying to attain something, then you're not meditating.
It's may be impossible for most of us not to try to attain something. It's best to ignore your tendency to want things.
the problem with meditation, apart from thrombosis, is you are being introduced to the notion you are insane
you need some sort of context of the world and yourself being insane, the best literature gives this context, but of course most people only read junk and get so traumatised by meditation that they do all these stupid practices/ guided/ music/ theological nonsense /whatever to avoid seeing themselves and life as crazy because they lack the context to handle it
"contemplative work" is "discovery" and what you find, why this never seems to be done and people rely on theological or other templates instead of their own work is beyond me. its like a different species, one so stupid in this respect you can cut it, interestingly most are like this also in health matters, its so bad i think there are biological blinders in place here
Oh dear.
"Meditation induced PTSD"
"Wounded Meditators"
😆
I know I wasn’t the only one who caught themselves rolling their eyes when they heard the name Sam Harris.
Hey Brad didya ever look into teaching at a college or an online courses college you'd be brilliant it might be a good source of income I feel you'd connect well with young people 🧙📚🫖
I only have a Bachelor's Degree, and it's not even in anything related to Buddhism or comparative religion. I don't think I'd be qualified.
@@HardcoreZen what would happen if you looked into it maybe take some classes yourself toward that end might be worth checking out 🍨🍧🍩💕
@@HardcoreZen do you have paperwork showing your transmission and ordination your publishing should count some schools could be looking for someone like you there's a teacher shortage and you could be the only Buddhist that applies give it a whirl 🐞🌮🎋🎏📿
@@HardcoreZen You might be surprised Brad. I've guest lectured at London University and the American University in London on Buddhism and Zen. What's required by such educational institutions, in the UK and Europe at any rate, is more that you have a verifiable background in Zen for example and have been authorized to teach, to some extent at least. That's for courses that are more focused on the practical, rather than the academic though. It's a different kind of context to a traditional zendo/Zen teacher one of course, which I found to be interesting and rewarding for short periods but not something I'd necessarily recommend long term.
Seems unfair to blame meditation for his episode. People have similar experiences without any meditation.
However, if a person has something like this waiting to come to the surface, meditation could possibly spark it, right?
It sounds like this person had a confluence of experiences and factors that affected them negatively and that they may other issues that need a mental health professional’s attention. Plus, this sounds like an article that really is not an ‘article,’ but something written for the internet. Also, I have a few issues with the Western Mindfulness movement. Finally, I am of the opinion that he had teachers that served him weak tea. Yes, I’ve had intense experiences and good teachers that provided sound guidance. Your advice on taking things slowly is great. Now, I have to go and be a parent. Later
get a mentor (be careful good luck).
there are no "states". just sayin. don't overthnk it.
This sort of negation isnt always practical
Brad, you seem have some issue with Sam Harris. You have mentioned him in few of your videos rolling the eyes. What's your issue with Sam Harris exactly?
He's an annoying know-it-all.
I agree. Sam Harris and the new atheist militant types come across as very arrogant despite being hypocrites.
Hypocrites in that, they judge religion as evil. Despite the fact that the very definition of evil they judge religion with, is actually a religious definition.
As anyone versed in philosophy knows, that science has no clear observable grasp on evil. You can’t point to it with a microscope and say
‘There! That’s evil’
@@HardcoreZen Well put! I knew something about him bugged me!
Sam enjoys nothing more than slamming someone with a brilliant intellectual judo flip.
@@HardcoreZen I like his wife Annaka Harris (author of Conscious) much better.
You know, you don't need "scientific chanting". There's a lot to philosophy and ritual that don't really need "direct scientific reasons". On the other hand not all "research and development" yields good or beneficial results, and some may simply be bad. I don't see the same tension between science and buddhism that you seem to experience. Science is about objectively observable reality (yes, you can argue about "objectivity" too), buddhism is about subjectively experienced reality. In the end, they are one and the same. Science works by observing reality. Buddhism works by observing reality. Some of the methods may differ, but the the tools and delusions are the same.
If we reality is the result of our perception, something must be observed to exist, and all humans are unique in their perceptions, is there anything we can call objective reality?
@@notpub, in sociological phenomenology, often the term "intersubjectivity" is used to stress the interrelatedness and constructivity of the field of inter-being, based on sharing the "eminent reality" of the "life-world" (A. Schütz).
If interested in more details, P.L. Berger/T. Luckman, "The Social Construction of Reality" (New York, 1966) might be a good introductory reader.
@@gunterappoldt3037 interesting, thank you! What is your take? Is there anything we can call reality, objectively? And if yes, can you please provide an example? Also, is reality dependent on observation of some kind?
@gedfi Does PROTOOLS count? 😄