Stages of Enlightenment?
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- Опубліковано 5 лип 2024
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Thanks Brad! I’m awarding myself 2nd degree Jhana belt for watching all 8 videos
Congratulations!
I think about the jhanas as more or less a spectrum, instead of levels, that helps gauge how my meditation went. Not like a score that I am trying to beat or something I dedicate a lot of time to exploring, but when I experience the same sensations (or lack of HA) that are described in the suttas it is just sort or reaffirmation that I am properly meditating.
It is funny which concepts different practitioners are drawn to/emphasize in their own practice. I find myself thinking about the 5 aggregates every hour of every day but you didn't seem as hyped on them. I find the concept of the skandhas to be one of the easiest ideas to apply in a practical every day sense but you described them almost as totally impractical. I was surprised to see you say that Right Livelihood was the sexiest fold of the 8 because that is the one I think about the least and I find it the least exciting.
I like hearing the differences that we have on our beliefs about the Dharma and THANK YOU AGAIN FOR YOUR VIDEOS!!! They are certainly contributing to the alleviation of suffering in this world :)
" There are three stages of enlightenment.
The first is when the first glimpse happens. I call it mini-satori. When, for the first time, for a single moment mind is not functioning, there is a gap - no thought between you and existence. You and existence, you and existence… for a moment… and the meeting, and the merging, and the communion, and the orgasm… but for a moment. And from that moment the seed will be in your heart and growing.
The second I call satori: that is when you have become capable of retaining this gap as long as you want. For hours together, for days together you can remain in this interval, in this utter aloneness, in God, with God, as God. But a little effort is still needed on your part. If you drop the effort the satori disappears. The first satori, the mini-satori, happened almost as an accident - you were not even expecting it. How can you expect? You had not known it before, you had never tasted it. How can you expect it? It came just out of the blue. Yes, you were doing many things - praying, meditating, dancing, singing - but they were all like groping in the dark. You were groping.
It will not happen if you are not groping at all. It happens only to ‘gropers’, real gropers - they go on groping, they never feel tired and exhausted, and they never feel hopeless. Millions of times they are defeated in their effort, and nothing happens, but they go on and on. Their passion for God is so tremendous. They can accept all kinds of defeats and frustrations, but their search continues. Unwavering, they go on groping. The darkness is great, it seems to be almost endless, but their hope is greater than the darkness. That is the meaning of faith; they grope through faith.
Faith means hoping for that which seems almost impossible. Faith means hoping against all hope. Faith means trying to see that which you have not seen, and you cannot even be certain whether it exists or not. A great passion is needed to have that much faith.
So to a groper who lives in faith and goes on and on, nothing ever prevents him. No failure ever settles in him; his journey continues. He is the pilgrim. Then one day it comes just out of the blue. You were not expecting. Unawares, it comes close to you and surrounds you. For a moment you cannot even believe… How can you believe? - for millions of lives a person has been groping, and it has not happened. The first time it looks almost like imagination, dream. But it is there, and it is so real that all that you have known before as real pales before it, becomes very faint. It is so real that it carries its certainty intrinsically. It is self-evident. You cannot suspect it. That is the criterion of whether the mini-satori has happened or not: you cannot doubt it. You can try, but you cannot doubt it. It is so certain that no doubt arises in that moment. It is simply there.
It is like the sun has risen… how can you doubt?
Then the second becomes a more conscious groping. Now you know it is, now you know it has happened. Now you know it has even happened to you! Now there is a great certainty. Now faith is not needed, now experience is enough. Now belief is not needed. Now its certainty permeates your whole being, you are full of it. Now you grope more consciously, you make efforts in the right direction. Now you know how it happened, when it happened, in what space it became possible. You were dancing? - then what was happening when it happened? In what way did the contact become possible? By and by, it happens again and again, and you can make out, figure out, reckon out how it happens, in what mood. In what mood do you fall in tune with it and it happens? Now things become more clear, now it is not just waiting in the darkness. You can start moving, you can have a direction.
Still you falter, still sometimes you fall, still sometimes it disappears for months. But never again can doubt arise in you. The doubt has been killed by the first satori. Then, more and more, it will come. And sooner or later you will become capable of bringing it on order. Whenever you want you can create that milieu in you which brings it. You can relax, if it comes in relaxation; you can dance, if it comes in dance. You can go under the sky if it comes there. You can watch a rose flower if it happens there. You can go and float in a river if it happens there.
That’s how all the methods have been discovered. They have been discovered by people when they found out that in a certain situation - make certain arrangements - it happens. Those became methods. By and by you become very very certain that if you desire it, any moment you will be able, because you can move your focus towards it. You can move your whole consciousness, you can direct your being.
Now you become able to see that it is always there; just your contact is needed. It is almost like your radio or like your TV: it is always there, sounds are always passing; you just have to tune the radio to a certain station - and the song, and the news. This is the second stage. But still, effort is needed to tune. You are not continuously tuned on your own, you have to work it out. Some days it is easy, some days it is hard. If you are in a negative mood it is hard, if you are angry, it is hard. If you are loving it is easier. In the early morning it is easier, in the evening it is more difficult. Alone on a mountain it is easier, in the market-place it is more difficult. So you start coming closer and closer, but still effort is needed.
Then the third thing happens. When you become so capable of finding it that any moment, whenever you want it - not a single moment is lost - you immediately can pinpoint it, then the third thing happens. It becomes a natural quality. That I call samadhi."
Comparative mind is one of those things I get feedback on a lot during Dokusan. Perhaps the authors were struggling with this themselves when they wrote it. I never agree with anyone trying to ascribe infallibility to religious texts not penned until decades or centuries after the author has passed on. Hate to quote Pirates of the Caribbean, but "they're more like guidelines". We're all fallible and everyone has played the telephone game as a kid... the authors were no different. I like how Dogen always reads between the lines, and love how you keep it real. Great work!
In contrary of the less views you mention, I'm really glad you made this series and I think it's absolutely valuable. I've been finding it really difficult to figure out where these generally considered fundamental Buddhist teachings sit (no pun intended) in the Zen tradition, and, especially in the overwhelming chaos of confusing and enigmatic Zen literature (really, how is it that Zen teachers/writers seem to be the least inclined to just shut up but at least keep it short, haha) there don't seem to be many resources available or accessible that explain this. So, you really addressed something that I almost gave up on! Not saying that I've figured it out now, but thanks so much for all the pointers!
Thank you!
If anyone is interested in exploring what Brad is talking about here in an experiential way, check out The Mind Illuminated book by John Yates. Everything he’s talking about here is entirely possible. Ive personally experienced many of these states of pleasure, concentration, equanimity, exploring various Jhana states. The one caveat is that trying to chase these states will guarantee they don’t appear. Let them come of they come, let them go if they go. But training the mind utilizing “right concentration” is entirely possible and provable in direct experience. Zazen is also possible to create these spaces of experience but it is not the end goal.
I was saving the precept videos for watching later. I know that there's good stuff there.
this is something i've been spending some time trying to get my head around - where do the theravadan teachings on the jhana's fit into my zen practice. do they even do that. there is a fantastic theravadan monk living in b.c., ajahn sona, who has just released a series of dhamma talks on the jhana's on his youtube page. i would love to see a discussion between brad and ajahn sona talking about the different perspectives on things like this. they are both such well researched and considered dharma talkers, not afraid to challenge some of the norms of buddhism
From my understanding, theravadan's teachings on the jhanas do not fit at all into a zen practice. They are states that a normal person would never encounter in the daily life, and that arises when one maintains a concentration on a single object (for ex breath) for an extended enough period of time.
Meditation-wise, Zen and Theravada differ in their relationships with illusions. Theravadins would think that illusions (ex: sensual pleasures) divert you from the Path, and you should stay focused on the breath, while zen practictioners would consider that illusions are part of the Path, because you can always see their ultimately empty nature.
I've never attained a jhana, but they seem pretty intense, and quite other-worldly.
I want to watch all 8, I have just been busy with late summer harvest and other stuff. You will get the views
Made sense to me, mind blown well and proper. Hi Brad Hi Ziggy Hi Dogen
Brad If I understand, the idea of the jnanas are what you have called tentative names in the past. One feels safer by disciminating. Dividing endless time into years, unseen distance into miles and borders. If there is no calendar, when is one an adult. If the are no borders, when does one leave Ohio. Should I stop and concern myself with these things or continue living, loving, sitting, working, traveling? Perhaps, one day someone will say wecome to California, old man. My response, "is that so?"
Yeah. That's a way to look at it. I've just seen people get really hung up on stages of enlightenment and measuring them against each other. It's funny to me that it's even a "thing" to do this. But it really is!
@@HardcoreZen Oh, we are taught to divide, measure, and grade everything from a young age. First, concrete objects then ideas then ourself. I think Alan Watts mentions in a talk, we are encouraged to complete first grade for the goal of 2nd grade, 2nd for 3rd, and so forth, wash, and repeat through adulthood. This is how our little self gains comfort and stability from first our caregivers, then our peers, and then an enthroned ego.
All necessary for human society, growth, development and so forth. But, most are never exposed or encouraged to jump off the hampster wheel of power, mind, or rebirth however one frames it. Yeah, discrimination is a thing. Maybe we can spead a little exercise wheel liberation dharma auround before the end of the kalpa, or probably sooner the end of homo s.
Cheers
I wonder if people find returning to "the basics" to be boring or even useless because they feel confident they have all this stuff down and want to hear about the sexy Zen stuff. I rather like Theravada philosophy for all that I'm sure that it's got more than its fair share of weird fetishes (for cataloging and numbering all of reality) and limited partisan approaches to difficult issues. Maybe the tradition itself is uncomfortable with just letting Samadhi be hard to describe. Same as with mindfulness I think. It's tough to describe zazen in words but once you "get" what the words are trying to point at it's not that complicated. Maybe the Jhanas are the same: they're not really these hierarchically ordered states of experience but if you're going to say anything about them at all you have to introduce categories because otherwise you may as well have just stayed silent.
Eric Mattingly : All Eastern people I know practicing in different Zen Buddhist traditions, study and practice the dharma of the Buddha. This include sutras and all the basic teachings of the Buddha such as the Four Noble Truth following with the action of the eightfold path which happen to be very useful always but specially to beginers. Westerners particularly Soto Americans are creating a kind of Zen adjusted to them.
Hello Eric, if they are studying the old Sutras, they will most probably do it with the material in the Chinese canon, not the Pali Canon.
I meant Lorena, sorry. And I don't think the Jhana states are described in the Chinese one (though I don't know for sure).
Tristan 1865 : I’m not sure but it could be the study and practice with the Jhanas is not done in any Zen Buddhist Tradition as such. It sounds more as Theravada Buddhism. However, the eightfold path is taught and practiced in all Zen Buddhist traditions. Well, at the very least in the Chinese and Vietnamese. What it might have happened is they skipped what they thought superfluos and left what was the essence. In TNH tradition the eightfold path is taught as something very practical and straight to the point. For instance the tittle in number 8 is not about stages of enlightenment but with a more practical tittle: “Right Concentration “. I mean all the eightfold path is very useful in the TNH tradition. It helps to give a very good direction to any beginner.
Brad; Thank you for the excellent talk on Right Samadhi. I appreciated that you began with the jhanas in the suttas and went on from there. There was a lot of content and many topics that could be discussed. I’ll share this one thought about the story of the Buddha twirling a flower and Mahakasyapa smiling or as you said, “the Buddha gave Mahakasyapa Dharma transmission” - that in a real sense means the Buddha was the first Zen teacher.
That's what folks in the Zen lineage say. Of course, there are those who say that the folks from the Zen lineage made up that story!
It's impossible to say what the Buddha would be like if he were alive today. Some would say he is! Anyway, I can't say what the Buddha would or wouldn't accept. I can understand how Pure Land Buddhism developed from the original forms of Buddhism, but it's more difficult for me to see how SGI's beliefs and practices are related to Buddhism.
Thank you for these excellent talks on the precepts.
Brad I wondered if you could you say something about your views on activism such as taking part in Extintion Rebellion demos from a zen perspective?
I had a conversation with Sensei Alex Kakuyo about this subject a couple of months ago on this UA-cam channel.
I got it this way: five or four jhanas are the marks of self-awareness. First you find yourself comfortable just sitting, beeing aloof of everyday buzz - this is upacara-samadhi, the Enter. Then you find yourself joyous and happy, with your mind working brightly and effectively - this is first jhana, with its proper vitakka-vicara-piti-sukkha. Then you became aware that that bright thinking is a burden, and you just drop it and feel comfortable with non-thinking, and you enjoy the knowing - this is second... And then it goes the third and finally fourth - pure samadhi.
I think this is valuable insight for any discipline... only the genius of mr brad could have cracked it! Like in math with continuous and discontinuous functions ☝️
Brad could you please do a video on non-duality and the distinction between Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism?
Yeah. I will. I've been trying to learn enough about Advaita Vedanta to be able to make such a video.
I wanted to ask him to make a video about whether or not robots can be taught to do Zazen but your is better because I don’t know anything about this Advaita Vedanta
Obviously it's subjective, and we can't really know what's going in other people's heads, and I recognize that I could be deceiving myself, as we as humans are wont to do - however 😄 I think the Jhanas are real, I don't know if there are exactly 8 or how many, but there are these tranquil states with different characteristics that I often encounter when I'm meditating.
"Pleasure" it's sort of a nebulous thing, but the perception of endless space or boundless space it's kind of a specific thing, and if you've encountered this you know it and there's no reason to attach a bunch of additional qualifications about it it's just a thing that you can run into. I've talked to several people who have had this experience, distinctly, of being meditating and having the perception or sensation that the visual field opens up in blackness but you can perceive an empty space extending out, as if you're suspended in space and the stars are gone.
And I guess that sounds a little spooky, but it's not, it's just calm and peaceful.
I know Zen is suspicious of things like this but it seems harmless enough.
And I don't think, in Therevada influenced practice that, that these Jhanas are supposed to be "stages of enlightenment" but being able to calm the mind in this way is supposed to be helpful along the way, hopefully, towards Awakening.
Regular Samadhi : no manifestation of self. Premium Samadhi : don't care whether self manifests or not.
HA!
The comment was enjoyed ;-)
This was one of your more interesting videos, and I like how you said the jhanas don't really make any sense because this is something I have thought before too since they are too vague. Can you do a video with your thoughts on Gopi Krishna and his experiences described in 'kundalini the evolutionary energy of man'?
Thank you. I've never looked into anything by Gopi Krishna. My first teacher once told me that he thought the practice of kundalini seemed like trying to shove all of the energy of your body into your head.
@@HardcoreZen You should read his book online, there is a free pdf of it 'kundalini the evolutionary energy of man'. In his case, he was not practicing kundalini - it happened spontaneously one day while meditating and he had been meditating for 17 years. Turned his life upside down and went on to write a dozen books relating to it.
@@sacredhogwash9435 I just downloaded the PDF. Thanks!
@@HardcoreZen You're welcome! I hope you like it, it's one of my favorite books and I'm not a big reader.
Spacing out staring at Ziggy’s tail
8:26 “Realization is practice and /listening/”
👁🗨〰️👁🗨💧
Ziggy is distracting!
It's hard to learn the jhanas and arupa-jhanas from the old sutras. In the Tibetan system, we practice the jhanas through a meditation called the "Lion's dance" or "Lion's sport." These instructions come from Buddha Maitreya by way of Atisha. I wrote a dissertation on this topic: basically the jhanas are excersizes that develop your Buddha-abilities.
I am coming from a strictly scientific naturalistic perspective right now....is there gems in Buddhism worth reading up on, experiencing or lerning about? Or will it make me go crazy... Will it expand me into awesomeness?
Yes, there are gems worth reading about. It probably won't make you go crazy or expand you into awesomeness.
dont worry about views, it's good content and in the long run will pay off. By the way: whats the state on your podcast? its been a while
I know... Part of the problem was that the idea of the podcast was to read a new "letter to Marky" before a live audience each time. When the lockdowns happened, I couldn't do that anymore. Also, I wasn't sure how to make the theme relevant. Are you missing it? Did you like it? I could start doing it again but change the format.
@@HardcoreZen I really liked your podcast and of course I would listen if you were to make more. I feel you have more freedom to say what you want without trying to keep it under 20 minutes for the youtube appeal. The thing is, I don't know if they are enjoyable to make or if they're harder than the youtube format, and since podcasts are not for everyone, you might have less "viewers". So only keep the podcast up if you enjoy making it and have more to say than you would on youtube. I hope you do though! cheers
@@oOAngeloAmorimOo Thanks!
@@HardcoreZen I definitely miss your podcasts, Brad! Whether it's in its current form or a slightly different adaptation, I'd be very much interested in hearing you ramble on for longer stretches at a time again.
Either way, thanks again for all the insightful stuff you're constantly putting out there.
@@oOAngeloAmorimOo I wouldn't operate on the assumption that a podcast would necessarily have a smaller audience. There are several successful Buddhism related podcasts.
Did read somewhere 'there is no Jana without discernment and no discernment without Jana'. Thinking discernment is just attention not contained perception of form. Thinking Lao Tse , to paraphrase, said pick a point of nothingness between arising/passing, eg between pulses, then let go/forget who is looking. True pulses would be there even if you were not attending them (there not made by discernment) but there is no aware Jana of them without discernment.
This is from Dhammapada: Dhammapada Verse 372, (Pali)
"Natthi jhanam apannassa
panna natthi ajhayato
yamhi jhananca panna ca
sa ve nibbanasantike."
Ajan Brahmavamso:
"There is no jhana without wisdom.
There is no wisdom without jhana.
But for one with both jhana and wisdom.
They are in the presence of Nibbana"
I feel like there is a certain way of thinking and talking about buddhism for every tradition... I've heard people in the theravada tradition say you have to learn how to 'speak dhamma'', as in you have to immerse yourself in the pali cannon and all the rules and jhana practice to get it. Seems like the same thing as sitting shikantaza, reading shobogenzo, and following the precepts... jhana practice and shikantaza practice are probably totally different, but they serve the system they are in.
We have no way of knowing what the Buddha did or did not say. We don't even have exact proof he existed. Arguing whether the Pali Canon is a representation of what the Buddha said, seems silly to me. ✌️
So you're doubtful about the Pali Canon but Dogen is perfectly fine. I find that ironic. So let's not even pretend that we give much of a fuck about the Buddha more than as an ancestral symbol that we got stuck with. Everybody is just honoring their tradition, Theravada with Theravada, and Soto Zen with Soto Zen.
so to make the pronunciation game even more fun: jnana in sanskrit is this: ua-cam.com/video/csdlRgehHFI/v-deo.html of course, everyone is free to say dshana or dshnana, or whatever, but...
Its awarness traning
This is jhana number one, this is jhana number one, isn't this a lot of fun?
The original nature of the policeman who abused his power and coldly killed Floyd , he also has in his essence enlightenment. Yet, he was living in a dream where his compassion was absented. How would you help that policeman to see his own enlightenment?.
I have no idea.
...And neither do I. There is a massive variation of delusional living dreams in mind humanity. Humans embody all evolution in our planet Earth and the universe. When “hell “ takes place in a human mind at its extreme, then not teaching of any kind will help that human. At such extremely painful stage that person can only be taught very primary things. The real essence of such state of mind would be so deep buried that, that person loosing all his freedom will need to be dictated what to do or not to do by Social Authorities.
And this is how exactly works the different dharma doors offered by different Buddhist traditions and other Teo religions.
I don’t believe in enlightenment but in moments of profound experiences with reality. Yet, there are people who feel very much stimulated to be diligent in their practice by having, what they call noble aspiration of getting enlightened. While they are employed in that, they are closest to their own essence rather than differently getting entangled in the “samsara” hell dream running the risk of ending up doing something very wrong as it happened to the policeman.
There is only one enlightenment, no one has ever attained it
I'm scared of this *hit
I mean my internal dialogue isn't normal - I hear intuitional voices. So times they are so correct that it feels like an impossibility in terms of probability theory. Enough said
( real inquiry) Sorry, I got tired and fell asleep....There's actually a lot to Buddhism I don't understand... I do understand that it's about growth, but I DON'T Understand the ego stuff at all and am even starting to wonder if it is antithetical to its own mission? .... Don't you need a healthy ego to survive and connect with others? why would you want to kill it? I'm going to write a more conscious comment at a later date, including my own personal experiences. Sorry brother, Got tired haha. I'll put it into context.
What? You question the authenticity of the Pali Canon? Blasphemy! No just kidding. I think it is a version of what the Buddha taught but did he really teach the four this and the five that and the seven of whatever or was that just how the monks formulated what they remembered of the teachings in a way that could be more easily memorized, I don't know. There's no way of knowing for sure. The problem with the approach given in the Pali canon seems to me to be that it makes it seem so difficult to even practice it. To really get anywhere you'd have to be a monk living in close proximity with a high caliber teacher like Thanissaro Bhikku or something. At least that's how it seems to me. For us lay practitioners Zen seems so much more practical.
Those jhana states are something that can be attained though how important they are I don't know. They are obviously not emphasized in Zen though I know some teachers who discuss them. In fact, my teacher told me that anyone can attain the first jhana and I believe I have and it is pleasant. I don't think about it too much though. For people who are interested in that kind of thing, there are techniques however and they are not too hard to find.
I enjoyed your series on the eightfold noble path and I don't know why there isn't more interest. It's kind of important any way you slice it.
Thank you!
For several years I have tried to catch every Brad's word about meditation, zazen. Repeating very basic and strait teachings like "just sit" and "be with it", Brad helped me very much with understanding the core practice of zen. But when he started to interpret more profound ancient Buddhist teachings, I started feel the pity for him... That's not good.
I thank you for your pity.
That's odd. If all you want is "just sit", a post-it note pasted here and there should work well for your needs?
From my understanding, theravadan's teachings on the jhanas do not fit at all into a zen practice. They are states that a normal person would never encounter in the daily life, and that arises when one maintains a concentration on a single object (for ex breath) for an extended enough period of time.
Meditation-wise, Zen and Theravada differ in their relationships with illusions. Theravadins would think that illusions (ex: sensual pleasures) divert you from the Path, and you should stay focused on the breath, while zen practictioners would consider that illusions are part of the Path, because you can always see their ultimately empty nature.
I've never attained a jhana, but they seem pretty intense, and quite other-worldly.
Yeah... I really don't know what to make of the concept of the jhanas.
It's kinda sad to see people wasting their lifes with this bullshit. And for what ? Hope things goes better for you man and for all of you
you are trying to make sense of a thousand to two thousand of years old nonsense, and are surprised its not working ?
you're a writer, not a priest
Andrew Levin : It may make sense to other people. It might be taught as skilful meanings to have the mind occupy in something. It is a bit like those kind of strange koans given to those with very busy minds. The koans help those practitioners to concentrate the mind in something, so they don’t think.
@@lorenacharlotte8383 do you ever think outside cliches ?
i think koan study is deeply misguided
i've looked at some thich nhat hanh monastic videos and its not impressive, so little so it makes me wonder what is going on there but i suppose its no worse than other monasteries today and to my credit john loori kicked me out of mt. tremper
well at least you did address what i wrote but be brave and go further and give an example of something that is not nonsense, i keep looking but short of some passages in the Sundarananda i have never found anything except crazy hogwash
so, front up with the goods
Andrew Levin : Sorry to hear you were kicked out. Why, What’s happened?.
About cliche: I said the first thing that crossed my mind. The important was to communicate the idea. Cliche or not it worked out as you understood at once.
Since TNH is out the picture, his monastics are trying their best coping with the huge change and sudden new roles in their life. They will eventually adjust to changes. Even monastics are human beings sometimes in need of support and human warm. To me they are marvellous people. A bit at present like little orphans children.
Reading the section comments here in Brad channel, someone was given the tittle of a book. The author a monk from Theravada Buddhism in Myanmar. I went to google but instead of the book mentioned I found another one by the same Author. You may like this book: “Snow in the Summer”. Writing in next comment the name of the monk writer.
Andrew Levin :Author: “Sajadaw U Jotika”
@@lorenacharlotte8383 yeah, jotika is interesting, very introspective which comes from a huge amount of meditation, i think that's why brad is coming to grief, really by the standards of some of these monks he hasn't done any meditation at all making him sound "tinny", all this buddhist stuff won't disguise that
some of these monks are celibate and you can definitely see the difference, this denial about the signifcance of eihei dogens celibacy, like its not relevant ?
brad has his strengths, he hasa good intellect and more insight, he's way better going from his own experience than trying to tailor his own views to the creation of brad_nishijima_buddhism
also he should learn to use active beta readers for his new book, the vlog would be good for that