The 7 Reasons Why Gibson is Suing Dean Guitars
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- Опубліковано 17 чер 2024
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I woke up this morning to the news of Gibson taking Dean’s Parent Company, Armadillo Distribution Enterprises to court for 7 different reasons under Trademark Infringement, Trademark Counterfeiting, Trademark Dilution and Unfair Competition practices. The 7 things distinctly listed in the suit are the Flying V, Explorer, SG and ES body styles as well as the Dove Wing (Open Book) headstock shape and the Hummingbird Name as well as the Moderne Trademark. Gibson is seeking 2 million dollars per infringement making for a total of $14 million at stake. Gibson is suing based on the principle of the matter and to make an example out of Dean to other manufactures that copy Gibson’s designs.
Dean’s Flying V (V Series) and Explorer (Z Series) shapes have been out since the late 70s so I don’t think Gibson will gain much ground here. However, it might stand a chance againsts the SG (Gran Sport) Luna Hummingbird and Luna Athena (ES) styled guitars since they are relatively new guitar designs from the company.
The headstock shape is 90% similar, but I don’t think it will be enough to win out in the courts. I’m honestly not entirely too sure what the Moderne kurfuffle is about - is it against the ML shape or the Headstock being similar to the Modern Reissues?
Not everyone is happy with Gibson suing Dean, but they say no publicity is bad publicity!
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Just as the hype of the new 2019 line up was starting to die down - Gibson decided to get back in the headlines by suing Dean over these 7 trademarks. What do you think about this situation?
troglysguitarshow.com/2019/06/20/gibson-sues-deans-parent-company-for-14m-over-trademark-infringement/
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This is kind of crappy because Dean makes good guitars if not better than Gibson in some ways the Explorer copy which I've played before play better than the Gibson in so many ways the flying device on the other hand is also a great guitar I think that they're both equally good at the Flying V but I got to give it to Dean Gibson needs to get their stuff together
If Gibson had done this back in the 70s they would have almost certainly lost. It'll be very hard to prove that any of these designs are really infringing, and the threat of suit itself is useful - they lose that if they sue and lose the case, they can't threaten anymore. And realistically, how is Gibson going to sue Dean and win without making a precedent for Martin to sue Gibson under?
So both Gibson and Fender decided way back then to only pursue exact copies of their headstock designs. They did threaten several makers and cause them to make small changes to their headstock designs, but they didn't even risk threatening over body shapes. For decades. I'm not sure but it's quite possible that Dean was one of the ones that changed their headstock shape just enough to comply with Gibsons demands way back when they first started. I predict Deans lawyer is probably going to use the word 'laches' in their filings, a lot.
Would this affect decisions to buy Gibson? Possibly, I don't like litigious companies and I do try to avoid doing business with the worst of them. But realistically, I wasn't likely to buy Gibson anyway. I prefer the used market, and even there while I like them it's obvious from the prices other folks like them more, comparatively speaking.
Could this help Dean? Possibly, both by exposure, and if it prompted them to do some redesigns. Their models *are* slavishly derivative (which is generally true across the industry) and their headstocks are particularly bad. I'd love to see some new designs in the mainstream guitar market.
@@downthehatch2260 I wouldn't be caught dead playing a Dean or any other "copy." It's Gibson and Fender for me only.
@@laughingdaffodils5450 I'd think they'd be MORE likely to prevail in a lawsuit back in the 70s, wouldn't they? Tons of companies have gotten away with it since then.
I still remember Gibson suing prs, back in the late 2000’s over the prs singlecut. Personally, if I owned a guitar company, I’d wonder why people chose to abandon my brand, and pick another, and work to better myself. Guess that’s just me though.
Gibson should only be allowed to sue if Dean’s headstocks also snap off when a butterfly lands on them.
Man, If I could give this comment 1000 thumbs up, i would.
Good one! LOL You must have owned a Norlin-era Les Paul.
I thought Gibson headstocks only snapped off if they were owned by careless morons?
lol
2 years later, this is still hilarious. Butterfly! Hahahaha 👍
Imagine Fender suing every company that has a strat shaped instrument.
Fender never got a trademark on the body style. They were denied because, by the time they tried, it was too late. Strat shaped guitars were everywhere by that point. Gibson has Trademark on the Flying V and the Explorer and the Headstock and their logos and the product name Hummingbird. (And the SG and ES etc.)
Fun fact, in a separate action, Armadillo has challenged the ES body shape trademark.
Quinton Worden EXACTLY!!! How many guitar companies has copied fender? Cause it’s a lot of different strats out here
@@TheScottJeter it's worth mentioning that Gibson didn't get the trademark for the Flying V shape until 1997. It's a big reason why they lost their cases in Europe.
You can't really sue a company if they've created a guitar before you have a trademark.
Quinton, I wish they would.
Damn it....I was gonna say that...even Gibson has a stat body
In answer to your question. I think Gibson are too late. The shapes they try to protect are now too common and generic.
The horse has bolted. Too late to shut the stable door.
The Gran Sport (copied body and headstock is really close) is only 6 years old. The legal action for this started when it was only 4 years old. That one's ripe. Luna Fauna Hummingbird is ripe too. I agree with you on Dean's V and Z. Those models are 40ish years old around the time of the original filing.
gavin Reid there’s actually a legal basis to support this- the question raised to Gibson as to why it has taken them so long to file the claim against Dean, considering that Dean has been making a V style similar to Gibson’s V since the 70’s...
And, Gibson was turned down recently in Europe for the V trademark; they’ve appealed several times, and have lost... they’ve got like one more appellate court to try...
The reason that Gibson has filed the lawsuit in Texas (for US Federal Court they could file in any state at any Federal Court location) is because Texas has a history of being sympathetic to plaintiffs (In this case the plaintiff would be Gibson) filing copyright infringement cases, and the judgements in these cases in Texas has been awarded to the plaintiffs more frequently than to defendants, by a pretty wide margin. As to why that Texas is like that, I’m not sure.
FWIW
“90% of the headstock is similar, it’s just that 10% open book part that’s different”, I think that the 90% you’re referring to is called “any headstock on any guitar” 😂🤣
Drew Gibbs i wonder if this push dean to come out with a new headstock that looks even more badass than gibson :o my favorite hesdstock right now has to be d angelico ny though!
Love it! yeah, the 90% is called "3 on a side"... probably about 3000 years in the making LOL.
You say that but that’s because the headstock has been copied so much. That’s not because it can’t be done any differently. That’s you being blinded by infringed designs flooding your eyes.
@@ScribblyDave Folk guitar headstocks were based on classical guitars but more solid because steel strings use more tension. So when Gibson started, 3+3 was standard. Epiphone, Martin, others were already making folk guitars and archtops with that headstock style. Gibson used an open book scrolled design on the top of their headstock to set it apart. It is the distinctive part. A distinctive part is what is required to define a trademark. So the "10%" is actually a significant part of their trademark. Dean's Gran Sport headstock is very close to Gibson's. Whether it's too close the judge will say.
Yep
All 3 owners of the Dean Grand Sport guitar are pissed...
Why would we be pissed, they aren't suing us or taking away our Gran Sports.
I have 2 of them, Love'm WAY better than my Gibson SG special.
Are the grand sports cheaper?
@@rickbrown3426 lol I bought my Gran Sport for under 200$...
@@bgilley8199 But ugly as hell lol
_Dean making Explorer shaped and V shaped guitars since the late 70's_
Gibson in 2019: *_Wait, thats illegal_*
You are stupid, gibson made that late 50s
@@AlejandroFloresmotorsport Careful calling people stupid when it's you that completely missed the point of their post. He wasn't saying Dean made them FIRST, he was pointing out that if Dean making them was truly a copyright infringement, why didn't Gibson sue Dean forty years ago when they first started making them?
@Alejandro Flores, Way off bro. You tried.
You must have hearing and comprehension deficit disorder LOL!
Know your Gibson guitar history!
@@robertsartino6610 I didn't even talk about a Gibson guitar? My comment clearly says Dean
Trademarks are designed to protect consumers. How many guitarists really purchase a Dean thinking it was a Gibson..... Please. Who invented the rectangular door? Then should send cease and decist letters to their competition too...
I have a circular door like bilbo baggins.
There is a difference between a product found by a company/person than a product found by an anonymous person. With that logic you can literally steal anything.
@@joshuacarpenter263 : Tolkien family will sue you... Wait! You had such doors in China long ago! Beware! PRC is gonna sue you!!!
those 2 headstocks are different enough.... NO ONE is going to mistake a Dean guitar for a Gibson from looking at the headstock. COME ON.
sirpazuzu, correct, but Gibson's point is that Dean has copied their body shapes and hardware. Not to mention PRS, ESP, etc.
@@angry546 How has PRS ever copied Gibson?
@@crisp9929 , you may want to get an eye exam. A PRS is nearly a duplicate of a LP except for the headstock and silly bird fret markers.
yeh the big diffrec is that gibsons snap inhalf smh
@@crisp9929 mcarty 594 singlecut is quite literally a les paul
If you think the ml and the moderne are similar your absolutely insane
But...but if someone were to see these guitars in a smoky bar...they would be instantly baffled. I wish I were making that up....that was gibsons argument with PRS back in the day.
I don't even care if they're similar if they go after the ML i'm going to be mad
My absolutely insane?
The only similarity is they are both ugly Guitars ;)
Yup, its absurd. Gibson is shit always will be.
Dean's attorneys: our headstocks have the added feature of actually keeping our guitars in tune.
and not snapping off by the slightest breeze
@@donkimble Go eat some boiled dog you idiot.
@@donkimble you no speak English good.lol
True dumbfucks, like yourself, have been saying similar things for years. And yet countless thousands of professional musicians have been making great music on Gibsons for decades. Congrats, you're a true moron. Maybe one day you'll have an original thought, though I doubt it.
No, we like the special tuning of E A D Gb B E. See, Gibson?
Gibson should focus on improving the quality of its instruments instead of BS court cases.
They cant even compare to a quality Dean guitar. What next? Sue ESP?
Sue everyone and corner the market. Smart tactic.
If they were to sue esp Gibson will end up like the third reich
Was your favorite Ferrari made by Hyundai as well?
They already did. They stopped production of the Explorer shapes used in the James Hetfield Signature models and ESP had to redesign the shape "enough"
KRR will definitely sue others if they win against Armadillo.
Mandolins from centuries ago had the open book headstock, so they better have checkbooks ready.
Gibson suing over a headstock design that was created by someone else, hundreds of years before Gibson even started producing guitars...
Gibson: "play authentic. Dont steal"
Also gibson: takes Martin dreadnought shape for hummingbird
also gibson: sells STRATS with Epi on the headstock
And the Les Paul design from OW Appleton.
And the whole "open book" headstock from mandolin makers.
and Appletons shape for the les Paul
Gibson has built its brand on stealing designs from other people/companies.
Gibson should focus more on making great guitars, rather than chasing after low-end, entry-level guitar companies who actually make guitars for the masses!
Great guitars and Gibson = an oxymoron these days.
I actually commented this elsewhere, but I feel it deserves to be here too.
Gibson is huge, no doubt about it. That being said, I have never held a Gibson. In the pawn shops and small guitar business's in my area there are few Gibson's and what are there I can't afford. There are a lot of Deans, a lot cheaper, and being more accessable, that puts them in the foreground of people's minds. Here, Dean is King
Just Gonna Get Better you have to level up your vision and use reverb. Who said you are supposed to buy from a local place? And if you are afraid of the shipping cost its not as much as others say and sometimes it is free.
1 - ran out of money
2 - went bankrupt
3 - need money
4 - have to sue someone to get money
5 - their guitars are trash
6 - the Chinese outsource parts might be exposed
7 - still trash
8 - need more money
9 - overcharge for their guitars
10 - still need money
you forgot the "ruin whats left of their name" step in there somewhere.
Honestly I fucking love Gibson guitars. I think people don’t like them because they can’t afford them lmao
@@TheProTalentGaming nice bait
@@TheProTalentGaming i have six gibsons, of varying ages and I'll even admit that my newer ones are garbage compared to my 60s and 70s guitars. Stop being a fanboy.
tito hall Oh yeah I meant to say the older ones. I only buy Gibson guitars that are at least 15 years old
As a Gibson fan... I disagree with what they are doing. I just think they are just pissing off a lot of musicians. Instead of putting so much resources into these lawsuit. Maybe they should concentrate on building the brand. This is going backfire.
A company builds and maintains its brand in part by protecting it from thieves and counterfeiters. That's a crucial element of any brand's survival.
@@greg7656 well theyve only left it 40 bloody years, and about 20 manufacturers too late hahaha i think the time to sue has passed, can you imagine Fender going out to sue all the Strat and Tele copies? half the market would disappear. If anything Gibson should just focus on making the best quality guitars of those styles, that way people who dont want to spend 4k on a guitar can still have the shapes and sounds of their favourite artists, this move will only piss people off
@@deanlejeune5005 I get that Dean, and you might be absolutely correct about the statute of limitations or whatever its called - that's a legal matter that the courts will determine - but you lose me at the "people who don't want to spend 4K but still have the shapes and sounds of their favorite artists." Guess what? Those shapes are protected! There is no inalienable right to having the guitar shape you want. Those shapes were developed and are maintained by a company at great cost. Life's unfair that way - I'd love an LP Jr but my maxed out credit cards say no, so no it is. Imagine if some cheapo car company made a near-exact replica of a Ferrari. Would you expect Ferrari to say, Ah well, let's just focus on making a better car and let the thieves counterfeit to their little hearts content?
@@greg7656 Sure they are technically 'protected' but if Gibson cared about them why havent they protected them for the past 50 years? Considering the fact they didnt care to sue companies back in the day, why should they be able to turn around and sue companies now? Especially considering they themselves have copied guitar shapes before? I understand the analogy but the missing point is that Ferrari hasnt let other companies copy them, they sue straight away. Because Gibson and Fender stopped caring about the companies making copies for decades they have kinda lost the right to complain in my opinion. Like, how has ESP been able to get away with what they do? Or Harley Benton? Should boutique guitar companies be destroyed for using a LP as a template? To not care about 'protecting' the shapes for 50 years and then try to sue companies because your failing as a business is a bit a cunt move in my opinion, and it seems in the opinion of many others. Honestly it comes off as a desperate attempt to hamstring the competition because the competition is out performing them, generally at a lower price point too. If Gibson wants to make it pay-to-play thats fine but they should have to pay up all the shapes and designs they have also copied, otherwise its purely hypocritical
@@greg7656 yeah. So they should have been consistent from the start and they should be targeting real counterfeiters. Not sue whoever is accessible on a whim because they money is drying up.
Protecting their legacy of poor quality control, archaic design, and terrible pr for the past 20 plus years.
There's only so many shapes for guitars! Of course there will be similarities!
Reeks of desperation for gibson grasping!
"We made the wheel therefore no one else gets to make a wheel as we invented the shape!"
Matter of fact: Everybody is inspired by somebody else.
Knowledge duplicates when you share it.
It dies when you lock it away and keep it to yourself.
Says someone who has never invented anything, put their life savings into producing it, and then had someone steal it.
You're correct about knowledge. But "knowledge" isn't the same as me taking a book you wrote, claiming it's mine, and selling it. Or taking a guitar you invented, financed, and made popular, and slapping my name on it and selling it.
Get real, fool.
Nicola Tesla invented pretty much everything we enjoy in the modern world (electricly speaking). And Edison and Marconi ripped off his patents and work.If you're obsessed with money and notoriety You will invent very little and become a greedy old Theif ( like Edison) or you can keep pushing boundaries and become a legend (like Tesla)
@@davecarsley8773
Anything else than insulting somebody you don't even know?
Who stole anything? Nothing was stolen. The guitars designs and whatever are still there. The were copied, nothing else.
Perhaps you don't really get the concept of evolution, but all products and everything that was ever developed is rooted on previous knowledge and ideas.
When great people say they stand on the shoulders of giants, then they hit the nail on the head.
The copy right laws are from a different millennium. Today, enforcing them in the ways Gibson seems to be going about destroys more than they safe.
Appreciate someone else that understands that it is absolutely impossible to steal an idea. Funny enough I had this discussion with my friend on his guitar company. I said be so innovative that by the time people copy you, you're three steps ahead. Gibson needs to see Dean as a fire under their fat lazy asses to make a better product.
Even if we insist on IP, given the rate if change in this world, it should be cheap to acquire and only last 3 years. If you can't get your product to the top spot and hold the market in that time, maybe it's better you do something else.
IP is now doing more harm to human flourishing than anything else. Goddamn patent trolls.
@@davecarsley8773 can't steal an idea. If I steal something from you, then I have it now and you don't. Competition drives the world forward and benefits us all.
They should know damn well Schecter has ripped the found out of the V and Explorer. ESP has ripped off damn near the entire line. There's hardly a single company that doesn't have an ES style guitar.
yeah i dont get why they are only going after this manufacturer, when i rarely see a guitar design that isnt almost an exact copy of a Gibson model
Well they “called out” other makers and boutique guitars too
Dean Le Jeune This is just the beginning.
rkr402 they can call people out all they like. Free advertising
@@gantronyc oh okay, just seems a bit targeted considering how many brands copy their style of guitars but as long as everyone copying gets a fair shake i dont have a problem with it
It's because Gibson is no longer a Guitar Company, it's a train wreck
Yeah, hired this guy, must be ..if that's going to boost sales ..
I think you're describing your own pathetic life.
@@JohnBarrow1961 o k
@@JohnBarrow1961 l o l
Went to a music store this week-end.
85% of the Gibson there had quality issues... The same models in the Epiphone range look and felt a lot better for more than half the price. In no other market would Gibson survive!
Your guitar store is full of old stock. Gibson addressed many of the causes behind the past few years' quality concerns. (Primarily morale, lighting, too much moving guitars around and folks not allowed to reject a guitar, only the final QC could.) They do need to work on price point and continue to improve their designs and improve quality even more. Which they could better do if the money used to execute these legal wranglings was reinvested in the company to modernize and automate and improve working conditions.
@@TheScottJeter nope
At least half of those guitars were 2018/2019 models...
Better luck next time ...
Paramont Pictures should sue Gibson for the Star Trek guitar. Everyone clearly can see the communicator shape. Wind blows both ways Gibson.
Think. It was marketed as the Star Trek Guitar. Gibson already has an agreement with the owners of Star Trek.
@@zdcyclops1lickley190 Paramount are the owners. I can't find mention of Paramount and Gibson partnering for this.
And the 2009 Jimi Hendrix strat copy prototype, and many more that we're earlier
@@TheScottJeter comcast owns star trek trek not paramount and its a different thst owns paramount
Jackson should sue em. That's a rr copy
I guess Gibson will lose it again, just like the PRS and Ibanez cases.
I think they must know that but feel the cost in fighting a case will be enough to make other builders think twice still its bloody stupid if they worked on improving there brand instead most would buy Gibson in the first place
Good. Let small or developing companies make good copies for a better price.
And let's not forget the good ole Activision lawsuit that began my disdain for this company.
Ibanez settled before court. Gibson initially won against PRS, but was overturned later.
@@dannyfisher5086 : nope : it's just a way to get cheap advertising!
The headstocks aren't even CLOSE. You lost your cred there, bubba. Never mind that Orville stole the open book carve from mandolins and guitars made WAY before he used it for his. 🎸
Yeah that is correct. The "Gibson" headstock is infact lifted from someone else's work
This video sounds like the guy talking is sticking up for a shitty guitar company who likes to bully better guitar companys because they are on the verge of going all the way out gibson is stuck in the 50's and way way over priced dean is a good guitar for way way lower priced that plays way better i love dean .jackson .schecter.bc.rich.moser.ibanez.esp.solar.kick ass i hate gibson and i really dont like fender other then that every other company is cool in my book
He is making a point that will likely come up in court proceedings. Your opinion on the subject is solely your own. Frankly, if you think this point won't be made, and that the judge will be a guitar expert you are being foolish. He made some good points.
@@williamcordell1501 yeah well gibson cant do nothing about it now since these designs have been out for 30 and 40 years if gibson wanted to do something about it they should have then not now gibson is falling and falling fast and after this they are probely done
@@williamcordell1501 Apparently my "sole" opinion is held by the majority of people here and you don't disagree either, and no, he didn't mention it because it will come up in court proceedings - he blatantly and falsely stated his opinion that they are "close" and by design standards - no they aren't any more than a rectangle is close to a square. The only interesting point he made is in the fact that actual "close" i.e. the "V" and "Explorer" weren't litigated decades ago.
Now you can sell a Dean guitar as a "LAWSUIT MODEL".
Local guitar store did that to all their Deans. Didn't bode well with customers from what I understand
Oh shit....I see what you did there! ;)
2009 - Gibson Unveils Strat-Style Jimi Hendrix Signature Line
They never released it. Oh, and Fender doesn't have a trademark on the Strat body style. They applied for one but were denied because there were already too many copies.
Big misstep.
The market is saturated with models that are inspired by Gibson instruments. Whether they have grounds or not, this was the worst idea to do now.
I agree with everything you said. And you are being polite about this.
And that exact reason is why they failed suing for the body shape in the past
Yep they've shit all over the good will they managed to build up recently.
It's been like that for a long time now
and while many companies had copied a design at least you can find a similar style in many price ranges
honestly companies copying Fender / gibson designs was a great move as some musicians don't want to spend $2K on a gibson explorer when another company could make a better version for less
Well the les paul itself wasnt exactly a breaking new guitar shape either....
Gibson, you're drunk. Go home. Make a new guitar.
2:15 Gibson didnt even design their own headstock... the “open book” styled headstock goes back to the 1800’s long before gibson stole the design.
1. the open book headstock design predates the gibson company. There are many older guitars with a very similar headstock design.
2. how could you possibly mistake a dean V for a gibson? or a gibson modern for a dean ml?
Gibson: Be original
**Gibson Jimi Hendrix guitar COUGH COUGH**
Don't forget the Jackson Roswell Rhoads
Mark Zuckerberg that was the biggest piece of shit made
9:04
@@Nightdare PEUP
@@josephmoad2507 R
Sorry, what would Fender say than? There's literally NO guitar company that has not a strat copy 🤦♂️
Fender will get on people if they use their peghead shape without licensing it, though. They've licensed it all over the place in parts, not sure how that works (I guess if you use a licensed part as a builder, you are probably OK).
I was about to ask about that lol i have the Epiphone sc series guitar and it is a lot like a fender. It's not bad either but I still see fender written all over it.
I'll never buy a Gibson again. But I'll buy a Dean or 3.
I own one Dean from the 80s. Made by Dean in the USA. If Dean kept making them in the USA I would buy them in a minute.
@@TheRobinlove25 They still do make Deans in the USA .. In Clearwater Florida at the Dean Custom shop. They run around $3000, depending on which model.
@@burnstudios yes I did see that after I posted. 😊
robin l. Why does it matter where they are made?
@@user-xw6uh3yp7g I just like my guitar's made here, in the USA. Just me but yeah.
My ESP LTD never looked so beautiful on my wall. I barely have to tune it even with temperature changes.... Ahhh the feeling of having a solid guitar
@@cainsmale5988 Out of 6 I have in my home, I only had one bad one that I sent back. other than that, they look, play and sound better than just about anything out there.
@@cainsmale5988 such a wrong blanketed statement
gibson stole the open book head stock design, the design pre-dates gibson by at least 50 yrs.
Epiphone opened their guitar manufacturing business almost 30 years later then gibson did, if anything Gibson copied Epiphone, and then as a last stand to conquer the guitar world Epiphone was bought out by Gibson in 1957 had that not happened, we would be seeing a different story today
Who made it first?
I'd like to check that out.
Irrelevant. Who holds the copyright? Nothing else matters.
woops i meant to say epiphone opened almost 30 years earlier then gibson did, what an awful typo...
@@greg7656 they could loose their patent if the originators prove it was stolen
The biggest power move would be if Fender sued Gibson because they made a famous single-cut two-pickup guitar first
DividingBy0 DAMN
this issue could be the final nail in gibson's coffin! And I love how butt hurt gibson fans are defending , unsuccessfully though, but still defending lofl!
I love Gibson guitars. IMO the Les Paul is a beautiful instrument. That being said. Gibson are making themselves look like full fledged "DoucheRockets". This crap they pulling, has this Gibson lover considering a purchase of a "Burney, Tokai, Edwards, or a Orville". I find it hard to give my hard earned cash, to non-deserving "AssClowns". No matter the product.
I have 2 LPs, both sound great, play well, but are completely out of tune halfway through 1 song.
Yes guys I also think the LP is a beautiful beautiful shape for an instrument, no doubt! But lately I have moved on to SSs like ibanez and jackson, and I kinda like their feel, sound and playability!
@@billthornton847 Orville were Gibson licensed products, the rest were copies.
I am tired of Gibson as a corporation, for reasons spanning the entire frontier of the industry.
The Dean ML shape was created as a hybrid of the Explorer and Flying V - and improving on both designs, as it would be easy to play sitting down. (You can even do a classical style position!)
I’d say it’s an even bet as to whether the teenage Dean Zelinsky even KNEW about the Moderne, back in the pre-Internet days, when he first created the ML. Seriously, the design was done by a high school kid doodling pictures of guitars!
This is not a good look for Gibson. This reminds everyone of when Henry J.-era Gibson sued Paul Reed Smith in the mid-‘00s. They did briefly get a friendly ruling, which forced PRS to stop making their single-cutaway guitars. Then it was soon overturned on appeal, PRS came back even stronger, and Gibson’s image as a villain was there for the next 10-plus years.
I agree with all that you've stated, and the moderne VS. the ML is a joke, they're nothing alike...
But Dean did definitely inspire the V and Explorer off of the gibson guitars.
On a side note, I think Dean's the only other big manufacturer that uses fret nibs, well i've only ever seen them on Deans. Not saying that this is something that's patented and Dean shouldn't be able to do nibs lol, just to point out that a lot of what Zelinsky has done has been gibson inspired, and for him to say "the accusations are baseless" is laughable
*Think of it this way, if let's say Kiesel, Solar, or some other well known *small* brand made an ML or Razorback body guitar, you can bet they would get sued by Dean, I have absolutely no doubt about that*
Not defending gibson nor Dean, just pointing out some stuff. And this is a very stupid move from Gibson, but this started in 2017 so someone is doing this for the free publicity, could be gibson (no such thing as bad press) or Dean or both lol
Should these types of "shape" patents even exist ? That's another discussion
I'm surprised Gibson hasn't gone after Edwards (ESP)
Everybody copies from everyone else. For example, remember how Gibson sued PRS for "stealing" the Les Paul body shape? Well, Gibson had actually stolen THAT from the custom-built guitars by Paul Bigsby, made famous by country player Merle Travis in the late 1940s. (Also notable for Leo Fender copying the headstock design.)
I think the ONE thing that Gibson has on Dean here is the brand name of a "Hummingbird" acoustic guitar. And Dean/Luna can throw enough countersuits, along with other companies that are teaming up here, to keep it all down to a name change and an agreement to forget this ever happened.
ML is a comfortable shape when seated for sure.
They seem to have a long history of looking like that.
@@erickleefeld4883 I saw on 5 Watt World that the "original" Les Paul was really an Epiphone that he was playing before signing with Gibson. Gibson didn't have a guitar for him to play so they just stuck their logo on the Epiphone.
Gibson is worried about copyright infringement. How does the Gibson/Strat/Hendrix guitar fit in to all this?
Maybe it's because (possibly I'm wrong) you can't trademark a guitar body shape, just the headstock, logo and name
Look at the Gibson US1...it is a Jackson Dinky, even down to the headstock...which is the exact same with a Gibson logo on it...
@Daniel Doran The Gibson US1 was absolutely in production. Don't reply to my comment if you didn't read it.
@@TooManyEyesJoeWell, that sounds bad for Gibson, many companies make some kind of V and Explorer
Greedy Gibson starting to get desperate now that guitar sales are way down. Maybe if they sold a reasonably priced, quality guitar, they wouldn't be struggling so badly.
Do I have still a chance to sale my old vintage Gibsons (in mint condition I still keep in their cases) for good value??
If KRR does what they normally do, which is gut companies and leave them bleeding on the sidewalk, they'll likely make your guitars worth more. (Sell is the verb, sale is a noun).
@@TheScottJeter Thank You Scott for your feedback. Sorry for my english, I'm french so no skill for other languages than my native.... :)
I thought the video turned Mark Agnesi from cool dude bro to cold hearted corporate shill in just a few minutes.
Guitar Anthony nope. He was always a cold hearted corporate shill, he was just hiding behind My Shorona licks
The ml looks nothing like the moderne though...🎸🎸🎸
Trogly's dead wrong in this video. There are tons of 3-a-side headstocks and the Taylor headstock looks a lot more like the Gibson headstock than the Dean. Gibson is going to get prior art up and down their face. The fact that they waited this long has pretty much invalidated everything except claims on their logo. Anything else is going to be facing a shit-ton of prior art dating back to the 70s. It's kind of weird that Trogly didn't point out the ES-series made by pretty much everyone since then as well.
Exactly! And in my opinion the ml is way more iconic than the moderne.
Now when do they sue EMG for making replica humbuckers. Lol first thing i usually see on a gibson is a pickup swap. Which i don't entirely agree or disagree with.
No kidding, even most of their high-profile endorsers put other pickups in their Gibsons.
How many head shapes are there?
I'm an Explorer and Z aficionado (I have 2 Explorers and 4 Zs). Standard Zs have a maple top, binding, string-through design, THE Dean headstock, more rounded corners, and no pickguard (so different electronics routing). They're as different as a Strat and all the other Strat copies not made by FMIC (Kiesel Bolt/Delos, Schecter Sun Valley Shredder, Kramer Pacer, ESP Snapper Suhr's standards, etc). Gibson doesn't really have a leg to stand on, especially since it's only been *checks calendar, frantically punches numbers into calculator* 42 years since Dean launched the V, Z, and ML designs.
I can't wait for them to sue ESP for the Viper, Eclipse, Snakebyte, and Arrow designs in 2030...
For the last 20 years I think Most a Gibson is overpriced and shitty enough to not bother.
@@jboyce92 Indeed,taste is subjective.Quality for the money is kinda not.I have fallen in love with (very few) some of them,wouldn't dare to buy a Gibson without checking it in person first.
I'm sure you've owned a bunch of examples to back up your parroting.
Mad..cause your broke bum ass can’t afford a nice les Paul
I own a Gibson LP studio
honestly I think it's just a high end epiphone made in USA
maybe the more expensive models are better but I got mine at half the average price they sell used at so no complaints for the price
Agreed, they dont stay in tune, and their acoustics cant hold a light to a martin, seagull, or blueridge
Gibson copy O W Appleton Guitar and name it the les Paul
i think gibson needs to worry about two things before getting all sue-happy:
1. make instruments are actually of heirloom quality, not something that was neutered by the boardroom and leans entirely on the reputation of its past
2. make those guitars we just talked about something that musicians are desperate to buy and others that cannot buy them extremely envious of because they are just that good
If Gibson wants people to stop buying ripoffs then they should start making good, affordable guitars!
Tom Veerbeek Amen brother!
I 100 percent agree with you because gibson doesn't realize that not everyone wants a 2000 dollar guitar that is just as good as a 500 dollar dean
Or could you stop being so lazy and save up for one
@@Wyatt42069 Or they could at least get some fkn quality control? seriously, my fuckin Harley Benton came with less factory mistakes than the LPs from Gibson. If im paying 3k for a guitar it better be a fucking good guitar or ill get one elsewhere
They do it's called epiphone, but what does that have to do with unimaginative companies like dean trying to rip off their legacy designs?
Hey let's run our company into the ground and then start suing people to get our money back! I hope they get busted for illegally imported wood again.
Essentially.
@@horsefighter_69 They've tried to sue PRS and paperjams of all things before in the past. They seem to not care, and the people will just forget about it after it's over
They're not suing anyone to get their money back. As stated in the video, the monetary value they are seeking is absolute peanuts for a company of this magnitude.
@@nesicus That makes it worse, If 14 Million dollars is "peanuts" to them, why pursue the little guy for them. Hopefully they win and put that money toward their 500 Million dollar debt.
@@nesicus Yeah, right... they have been on the edge of bankruptcy as of late, but sure, it's not about the money, it's about the "legacy" or some other nonsense bullshit.
I wonder if they'll go after ibanez for how similar the destroyer is to the explorer. There're definitely some design changes, but you can tell it's based off the explorer outline.
Later on in the year Gibson is going to try and sue the following guitar companies :
-Chapman guitars
-Ibanez
-ESP
-literally every guitar company
I was going to point that out. There are a ton of guitar companies that model their guitars after other companies guitars. Including subsidiaries of Gibson itself.
Total bs on Gibson’s part. They would have to sue almost every guitar company other than Fender. Gibson needs to focus on their own company.
Kamikaze Son if they stay this desperate I could see them trying to go after the tele deluxe lmao
Instead of paying billable hours, maybe Gibson could invest in better qc. Also, I'm sure Dean thanks them for the publicity. This is a bad move.
According to this channel another is, Gibson has improved the quality control.
@@216trixie Half the new guitars he got had a crack under the pickguard, all of them had fretboards with tooling marks and half had cavities with splintered wood. They have a long way to go for the price tag.
@@DarkDare47 There is a clear bias on this channel.
216trixie I worked there during the Henry years. It wouldn’t be difficult to improve QC. They had basically none!
There was always a bias on this channel, as much as i enjoy this channel he sucks the ass of Gibson, its what's putting me off majority of his vids.
Do different tv companies sue eachother for 'similar' shapes? or bike companies?
Trademarked shapes.
This has inspired me to buy a Dean.
Nobody:
Literally not a soul:
Gibson: You've yee'd your last haw
no, just no.
I have found my new insult.
I get what you're saying, but next time try to think of an insult that makes sense.
@@Ja-be5cy it's a meme, it's supposed to be ridiculous
more like- We've yee'd our last haw
Jackson makes V type guitar and an Explorer type as well.
They would have to take on fender over that. I'm not sure they're that ballsy
Yeah, but Gibson ripped off the Jackson Roswell Rhodes guitar. And then they go and do this? The hypocrisy. I hate modern Gibson. 💵 💵 💵
Dean’s V and Explorer are basically the exact same dimensions as Gibson’s. Just sayin, I’m not saying I agree with this.
The King V, Rhoads, and Kelly are all Jackson originals.
Jackson has a very clear and defined history behind their V shape. The first Rhoads model was clearly unique and nothing like the Gibson V. It was further changed because Randy did not like how hard it was to reach beyond the 15th fret and some other reasons. Later on Jackson just extended the lower horn of the "V" to make it more comfortable to play for players that wanted more mass in the body.
As far as the Kelly goes the design is changed enough plus it's an old design that was introduced in the 80s. Gibson doesn't have a case on that one either.
Never knew Dean had a "SG" type guitar but if Gibson is suing over that body shape too then have they filed suit on ESP for their Viper series guitar which is an SG or ESPs Eclipse series that are Les Pauls?
What about esp? Like they have explorers, Flying V, and the eclipse and viper all based off almost exactly to Gibson models?
I always saw the Deal ML as half V/half Explorer.
Same. That’s probably what they were going for
@@squidwardstesticles5914 true. i used to be personal friends with dean zelinsky and he told me that he put a V on top of an explorer and covered the middle up with a towel. he wanted to get an idea of what it would look like before he started cutting up wood.
I mean, that's still copying 2 Gibson designs at the same time, but I wouldn't bring the Moderne into it.
Welp, I guess Fender's gonna be selling a lotta Tele Deluxes this summer
Will Gibson sue ESP guitars too? They have models with body shapes similar to the les paul, explorer, sg, and 335.
The headstock differences are definitely noticeable. The angles are all different.
lol just when Gibson gets back on the good side with the guitar community, the past week definitely has undone a lot of it. as long as they get on that inconsistent quality control, i think they'll be fine in the long run.
Sean Zetterlund Yeah I think a lot of people are forgetting the insanely short attention span of the mass public these days too. “Scandals” that happened less than a year ago feel lightyears away and are almost all but forgotten.
wait they were on the good side? When did that happen? I didn't get the memo.
That video just made Gibson look like corporate bullies. As others have said, they have left it waaay too late.
At this point the best plan to "protect the legacy" would be to build consistently high quality instruments.
You know, I've been thinking the B.C. Rich Ironbird is much more like the ML. - Well, the ML was like a Flying V with an Explorer-tip. But the Ironbird is kind of like a Rhoads (the "offset" wings) with a sharp tip (a lá Explorer) added to it. - I think it's a very good example of how to, not only be a little similar to existing models, but make something more unique that still stands out enough. - Because honestly, because I like the "offset" or "assymetrical" guitar-shapes more, I got an Ironbird to emulate an ML for Dimebaggy shredding. It looks and feels very similar anyway.
I'm going to give you some criticism for the visual presentation of your videos (or this video at least), being very... well, basic. - Nothing wrong with that for conveying information. Because, also, you're very clear and concise. You remind me of those videos like Bright Sun Films and so on...
I do like this video, though, it's not thát... But perhaps you could at least use some neater fonts and images and such?... You don't need to be like an Adobe Premier master or anything, but some tidying up (even though you clearly put work into it) would help. - Keep up the good work!
Are we not gonna talk about the endless other copies of Vs and Explorers? Just seems a bit weird to not mention that
Gibson look at PRS... save your money you're wasting your time
George Mercer they have
A friend of mine has a Gibson SG that cost £900 & won't stay in tune. He asked what he should do to fix it. I said buy a Telecaster!
(I should have added '& sue Gibson for selling a faulty product')
I would love to get that Luna Hummingbird for my daughter. It seems that they were either pulled, or sold out.
Wow trogly defending gibson Damn didn't see this coming
He wants to be included in the UA-cam contributors who are recently being handed Gibson guitars to not say anything negative about them
Def makes me not wanna buy anymore Gibson’s although I weren’t anyway because other brands make a better product in terms of value for your money.
Publicity for Dean- definitely.
But I love ESP’s
Gibson needs to relax and realize they don’t make affordable guitars and other companies cater to different players- especially for the money tiers
hahah. Gibson is doing fine. Stick to your ESPs. LOL
crush537 been going bankrupt for a decade but yeah they’re doing fine and still trying to get money to stop drowning
@@Les537 lit almost went out of business
@@Les537 A $300 Korean Danelectro is a better quality product than a $2500 Gibson these days and for about 20 past years.
When I used to work for a guitar company they sent a s&d to us because we had a lp style single cut that was actually smaller in size and a different shape. This was back in 2013.
Gibson has turned into the bully you hated in school. I hope they lose every single court case.
Dean makes a quality product.
Gibson made a quality product 60 years ago.
Can confirm... '62 Melody Maker is fantastic...
Well, high-end Deans anyway. My mate's Demonator bass fretboard came unglued from the neck.
And you'll never have more than half a brain.
@@NeglectedField maybe I just got lucky, but I've had a Dean Baby V for 12 years that hasn't had any issues, and it's gone overseas through ship, been in storage in a humid place for extensive periods of time (with radical changes in temperature), and have been thrashed around a bunch.
(I realise now this may make me sound like a deplorable person that mistreats guitars, but with all the others I have I've been keeping better tabs on... Simply forgot about the Dean in a shed haha)
@@jasonb.9790 Perhaps my mate got a dud. Still, I haven't heard of Dean having a good rep on the quality front as many of their peers e.g. Schecter, ESP/LTD, Washburn, etc. But that's just me. I still fully agree with the sentiment that Gibson should take a look at themselves before lashing out at other companies.
Now we'll have Dean "lawsuit" guitars increasing in value... Well done Gibson 😂
Dean Guitars: The Lawsuit Series. Get 'em now before they're gone!
The funny thing is that Dean guitars are relatively more affordable, but that much better quality,even the Floyd Rose (which in most guitars will be Licensed) I'd rate as highly as the real deal. I don't know how they do it but my dime razorback (from 2005) is fuckin wonderful
@@MrAdravix yes dean guitars in general are very good quality and the prices are fair ( talking mainly Korean models )
every Dean guitar ( even the chinese stuff ) I've played sounded amazing and really shows that Dean guitars is a company that makes great products to suit all budgets
but Gibson / epiphone when you look at certain budget/s they don't offer the best value for money much
I used to jam regularly with a friend who had a dean electric. I loved playing it because I could play an a chord with three fingers without muting the neighboring strings.
I always thought of Dean as one of the many off brands you saw hanging in music stores. But I never bought one.
But I'm going to now.
the open book design was around long before Gibson started.. what about the Hendrix Gibson strat
The top of the ML body is an explorer, the bottom half is the V.
PhantomLord Looks more like my old Carvin V220 from the eighties.
Dean Zelinsky named the ML in tribute to his friend Mathew Lynn who died quite young of cancer.
What a marvellous memorial it has been!
Hey Gibson!
You should concentrate on making guitars people want and can afford.
#TELECASTER
You can tell something's up when LesPaulDisciple is repping the telecaster.
That’s why I like my Korean made Dean... oh wait...
Got that right
My first legit, American made guitar a few months ago was a Tele. #TELECASTER
@@F_I_J_I_W_A_T_E_R Les Paul owned a tele. Legend has it that in a conversation with Eddy van Halen, Les said this: there are only three people in the world who can make good guitars you, me, and leo fender.
"What's $14 million dollars to a giant corporation like Gibson?" - You mean a company that has been fighting off going bankrupt for years?
I don't get it. Why are there so many other companies that make copies then? Harley Benton, Yamaha, etc.?
If they win this case against Dean maybe they will as it will set a precedent, would be costly to go after all clone companies at the same time
I don't think Gibson has much of a case here at all. Even in the instances you cite where they might have a case, the fact is that while Dean or Luna might have only been making these instruments for a little while, there are other companies out there that have been doing it for decades. And while what other companies do might not be a defense for Dean, the fact that Gibson is singling them out is. However, even if I thought GIbson had a decent case, they have already lost in the court of public opinion. Just as they were staring to turn around their public image, this is making them out as the villain. This is a terrible fail for them.
Indeed, they don't usually bother with (hard) cases anymore
That edit before playing was an alpha move. Powerful stuff bro. Powerful stuff
If Gibson wins the Flying-V and Explorer series then Ibanez, Jackson and ESP plus many more are in trouble
I've always thought the dean v and explorer where rippoffs. How could one not?
Gibson is a behemoth and should pull the plank out of their eye before worrying about the splinter in Deans eye.
Yeah ok... But a lot of guitar companies have a les paul or a single cut style guitar. why not sue Harley Benton and esp?
based in europe and japan
They might pay a licensing fee to gibson
@@1xXDrifterzXx1 So was Ibanez when Gibson sued them..
HB has a single cut body, but it's quite different in shape, it's not nearly as close in shape as some others in the past have been, and their headstocks are not even close to Gibsons. So they can get away with it. But might as well sue them, Seems Gibson like spending money on Lawyers suing everyone rather than putting that time, money and effort into fixing their own products
When companies get lawsuit-happy, it crashes consumer confidence in their brand.
Well check out the Dean custom 350 and 450 - ibanez headstock copy
I'm headed out to my bandsaw to copy some LP's as we speak. 😂😂😂😂
yeah exactly theres literally like a thousand other guitar companies that have copied gibson shapes through the years, most notably the pre lawsuit japan era where they where making exact identical copies of the instruments but just putting a different name on it like Tokai or Mann, or Greco? yeah i think it was greco, and a bunch of other japanese makers as well as other popular guitar companies, besides suing in 2019 doesnt help their case at all, maybe if it was back then it would have helped their case a little bit more, but today? they aint got no chance, gibson dont own the right to the word hummingbird either nobody does, if thats the case Nissan or volkswagen (i dont know what came first) would be suing each other for the use of the name *R32* seeing in the VW Golf R32 and the nissan GTR R32 Mercedez also has a car called the Mercedez AMG *GTR* sounds familiar doesnt it? yet we dont see those companies going at each others throats over a silly name. Its absolutely ridiculous this is not what gibson needs right now especially in a time when theyre so fragile
Gibson and fender are the boomer guitar companies. Pretty much just status symbols.
For real. Fuck Gibson. I respect fender because they’re staying in their own lane, but Gibson is a train wreck
juggalohunter100 I disagree. Fender has a huge portion of its marketing focused solely on attracting young players. A couple minutes scrolling their website or social media feeds will show that they want to attract the new generations.
@@ryanhenderson2388 what's so wrong with that?
You're right. Millennials don't need a guitar company, because none of them can play.
why you looking at my name chump nothing, I was saying it’s good and that Gibson is failing partially because of that
"they copied our open book headstock.Well, it doesn't look like an open book anymore, but they copied it!"