UPDATED 11/02/2021: Thanks for watching! The turbo rule was amended to disallow “macros” on controllers, but regular rapidfire/turbo functions are still allowed. Remember that no runners mentioned knowingly broke any rules, or were considered to be cheating. Be sure to give Octopuscal a sub! He's an amazing runner! He also recently got another mid 44 minute time without the mentioned controller! ua-cam.com/channels/EepdDIGxjz7P7nKGNUCUTg.html
Edit: Thanks for the update. This was an interesting and somewhat interactive video. Well. I guess he can always host the runs with the controller. It'd be nice to see it possibly become it's own category someday. RE3 community for example, agreed to allow a script that lessens already stressfull, run killing RNG. While thats different. I think it just goes to show, that if enough people agree? No method is really off the table until it's decided.
While I cannot say I am for them, despite using them for disability issues myself. I also cannot exclude them, as macros fall under the same classification as "tool assisted" runs. While I agree with them in amending the rules to disallow macros, at the same time the logic doesn't make much sense as again, tool assisted exists and DOES use several means including macros. If anything what would have made the most sense would be to have them placed in a strictly tool assisted any% vs. ommiting it entirely. Either way as of your upload at least, he still ahs the fastest run regardless.
Thanks for the good video. Of course, I thought I might be disqualified, so I asked the question on Discord beforehand. But no one answered, so I used it. Also, 45:12 was on the leaderboard, so I figured it was allowed. Personally, I don't mind being banned. But I wanted everyone to answer up front.
I would imagine if the runs got disqualified, there would be no ban since there was no malicious intent behind using the Konami controller. I’m not a mod, but regardless of the controller I would say that you earned that 44, and I know you could do it again! Thank you for your hard work in pushing the time down.
@@DoctorSwellman I'd like to hope that there won't be a ban! A run being removed or being put into a new category because it caused a rule to be created or changed is definitely not the same as knowingly cheating.
Pretty black and white. Only turbo is allowed. Removal from leaderboard is enough of a punishment though. Banning is just overkill for something the runner wasn't maliciously hiding from the community. Banning should be reserved for runners that are knowingly and purposely deceiving the community with unfair advantages.
Why wouldn’t they just add the time he made up from the extra inputs over an ascipad run? I feel like that would be akin to leveling the playing field and just tell him the exploit isn’t allowed anymore
@@jackclifton5434 It's not so much about the time as it is the possibly of human error as well, something that can happen in any speedrun. Macro buttons eliminate that since all you need to do from there is get in position, and have the macro button do the rest of the work.
I always love it when these speedrun documentaries are being serious in their topics and then someone's online name gets mentioned "he was using a new route created by Loli Illya"
Reminds me of one of Summoning Salt's videos on the history of SMB speedrunning. It was a pretty serious video until of the runners "420blazeit" got mentioned. That caught me so off-guard lol.
I don't mind the colorful characters of history, it's when these speedrun docs explain at the start of every video what the goal of speedrunning is that jars me
"This is a serious allegation that must be examined for legallity. If he cannot prove his run's legitimacy, FartD3vourer97 risks losing everything he worked so hard to acheive!" *Fade to black. Melancholic music rises*
a special programmable controller seems like it would fall into TAS territory, as persistent precise timings like that would be much, much more difficult to do in a speedrun
Personally as much as it sucks I think it either has to be disqualified or made into a separate category. The solution I see is similar to the emulator one, meaning make a list of approved controllers (like there are approved emulators for other games)
@@JgHaverty I don't get why this is even a thing nowadays...can't be so hard to ASK if something is okay to use before you do so. The excuse of "well no one stated it in the rules" does not work. I rarely see rules stating that TAS tools are forbidden...do we have to put that stuff in the rules of every game now? I would argue we should trust the minimal amount of intelligence to be there in every human being speedrunning.
@@neros_soren It's often easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. As for TAS, that's always a separate category, lol, and thus doesn't need to be stated. I do 100% agree with the OP though. It either needs to be it's own category, and then gauge interest to see if it's worth keeping around, or just disqualify any runs that use it. Turbo is one thing, but programmable macro buttons is it's own thing.
@@neros_soren read the top comment on this video. Apperentyl, octopuscal asked beforehand and did not get a response. Now, we can argue if discord is the right place to ask for an official ruling, but it goes to show that it needs a process.
@@LucianDevine A TAS and TAS tools are two beast...I can do a non TAS run with tools provided and used in a TAS... why do people try to wise-arse factual statements? Also...TAS is not a category, it's a way to do runs... And your statement neither engaged with my point nor does it have anything to do with it, except for the wise-arsing part.
I never heard of this Konami controller before. But being able to reprogram buttons is something that indeed can bring discussions with it along the way. I know that a lot of NES speedruns have the rule to only program one action per button (and turbo is also almost never allowed). I am curious how the EB community is going to handle this situation.
I think the real problem with using a macro controller is that it would open the floodgates for further arguments for macro use, whereas a turbo controller can only mash. It's unfortunate that this runner got caught up in all this, and I hope whatever the resolution on this ended up being, it didn't cause many issues.
I think some important distinctions need to be made here. 1) Octopuscal did not maliciously try to hide the fact he used the controller. He was up front and honest about it from the get go. 2) he was using an officially licensed product that had hardware manipulations, not unakin to turbo controllers as well. 3) this was a "new" thing brought up that has no precedent before it 4) the allowance of turbo controllers does beget a "slippery slope" fallacy effect. If one controller is allowed, why not another "mod type" controller? The very clear distinction should be made -> any % standard, and any % modded controller (of any type) with the restrictions implemented SPECIFICALLY. If macro controllers are disallowed, then so be it, but make it a clearly defined event and standard. Calling for bans and dq's is preposterous. Hes not a cheating speedrunner using TAS or frame editing to cheat his runs; he used a bizarro controller that no one really thought to use before. An officially licensed product as well...
Thanks for the comment. Most of this was addressed in the video, and the term “cheating” was specifically not used because that’s not what it was. The calling for bans or restrictions were for the controller and not the runner himself. He asked about it in the discord and no response was given at the time from the moderator team, so he went with it. The runs being disqualified would have been from the use of the controller, which brings me to the next subject that was talked about. The controller was a command controller that basically used a macro function that could play back multiple inputs each frame, which is not simply a turbo function Octopuscal has since obtained another sub 45 any% run with an approved controller, and the moderator team made the decision to add that restriction to the EB boards. This video was only made to bring light to an obscure situation, and create a frame of reference for other speed communities in case situations like this pop up for them. While I appreciate the effort you made to inform myself and others of these things, it’s already been made clear in the video and description that no cheating occurred, and it was not made to tarnish octopuscal’s reputation in speedrunning
@@DoctorSwellman i was trying to address my perceived notions of players calling for a "ban". I misinterpreted one person in particular, but the comment wasnt intended for "you". I did watch the video and youre obviously more informed than most about it. I was clarifying for those that felt it was "cheating" and hes somehow a malicious runner. And to be fair, you really didn't clarify if that it was blown over as a controller issue only. Lot of cheaters getting outted for speedruns lately; and subsequently a lot of witch hunting going on. I wanted it specifically clear it wasnt "cheating", as your video doesnt make that statement directly.
Well most boards only allow OG hardware, so I'm not certain as to how much weight the "officially licensed" part of hardware would have in the balance. The reason turbo functionality (keyword here: functionality) was allowed was for QoL improvements, so that people wouldn't just mash their fingers to oblivion. However, a specific functionality that falls outside of OG hardware specs, and that was not greenlit (ie: programmable button sequences) used in conjunction with turbo made it way faster than it should've been. It's the combination of a feature that has been greenlit by the community (ie: turbo) with one that was not, and never will be (ie: macros / programmable button sequences), that caused this huge boost in turbo performance. Octo not hiding their methodology doesn't make their attempt any more or less legit; in fact it has no bearing on its legitimacy or lack thereof, depending on how you look at it. It would only have had an impact on Octo's character if they would've lied about it, which they did not. So it wouldn't make them a cheater per se. However, that bears no weight as to whether or not the run should be considered valid. To me, it shouldn't within the current set of rules, as allowing turbo functionality doesn't mean allowing all functionalities of every turbo controller out there, even those that fall out of scope from turbo. It means allowing turbo functionality in addition to what OG hardware can do; nothing else. Again, the problem here doesn't lie with turbo nor the controller itself, but rather with an out-of-scope feature that said third-party controller possesses. Said controller being licensed or not holds no weight in this.
I wonder if there's a good tool to measure turbo frequency. Not everyone can get their hands on an asciiPad and it'd be neat to confirm whether third-party controllers have an unfair advantage. I'm entirely certain my horrible Turbo Touch doesn't.
LOL I havent seen one of those in a long time. Im sure theres a response tester somewhere; and I feel 10hz is probably specific to allow for most controllers? I couldnt say for sure, and its probably a hard thing to "prove" anyway.
Not sure why this was even a debate and how the speedrunner(s) themselves didn't know 100% that the Konami controller should not be allowed.. It's literally no different than a player who plays on a pc emulator and if they programed a macro on their gaming keyboard, so they can do multiple button combos/presses with a single keyboard button press. Even they would cry foul if a emulator player was allowed to submit their record to the leaderboards and they were open about using keyboard macros... So the audacity that this person would think it would be okay just because it's a console controller.
The rule you brought up would be the perfect way to fix this whole mess, having a limit of button presses per sec, in order to have most turbo controllers be on the same footing. otherwise that specific controller would surge in popularity, and thus price and decrease in availability to boot, making it impossible to compete with such time saves throughout.
Allowing turbo for text mashing is understandable for text-heavy games like RPGs. Programmable inputs/macros are debatable depending on the game, but I think using them would generally be either put into a new category or completely disallowed.
@@foreignuser_ I usually agree in a general sense, but when there's a lot of text and all you can do about it is mash through it, then I don't see the harm in allowing everyone to use turbo for text mashing, as long as it's only used for text mashing.
@@jruler93 i'm not saying you're not reasonable and i have no skin in the game other than being a fan of speedrunning. thanks for the response and your thoughts. my philosophy is that some games are just not going to be great choices for speedrunning and i would rather let those willing to do it on regular hardware do so. if it's not fun to mash through text for someone, maybe there's a door open for you check out another game! either way, love the stories and achievements speedrunners accomplish all the same.
I mean to me it’s like your running a marathon, yeah it can be mundane but just cause it’s repetitive (like running a marathon) doesn’t mean you should use some device to let you coast along that marathon, like giving a runner a skateboard or something.
I feel like a better term than "programmable button" would be "macro" or "turbo macro", as I feel like that's a more common term, although I am certainly not an unbiased observer
I have nothing against tool-assisted speedruns, but this absolutely is a tool-assisted speedrun. As long as the records make that clear, then there's no issue.
I mean the rules didn't say anything about NOT being able to use one either so...... xD Silliness aside I can see how that's like kinda encroaching TAS-esque territory, so it's certainly up for a ton of discussion, I'd imagine!
now that i finaly also watched this video here is my butter for the bread: wonderful video as always. loving the cuts with the script and the informations with it. and about the controller. octo did a fantastic job for sure, but wasnt turbo-controllers only allowed or was it "controllers with automatic inputs". cause the command controller as the name already suggests is not a turbo controller and was never market as one. at least thats my butter for the bread. keep it up ^^
The name of the game for all competitions ought to be accessibility. If everyone knows about a particular tech, then it ought to be allowed, unless it requires the community states otherwise. If everyone has access to this control or a simulator of this controller, then it probably ought to stand. I don't see a controller which enables a few button presses to be mapped into an array for execution being similar to a TAS where hundreds of inputs may be mapped into a specific sequence and executed in any way the TAS'er desires.
I don’t run Earthbound nor do I know anything about the history of the run or the rules the community has in place. But as far as I can tell, if they’re using an original copy of the game, running it on original hardware and using peripherals in the way they were programmed to work, I don’t see a problem. The vast majority of runners wouldn’t be in WR record contention regardless of how they played the game, so talk of banning a certain peripheral only serves the top runners… typically the same runners who moderate the rules of a speedrun category. Is that a conflict of interest? I don’t know. What I do know is that innovation like this draws attention to the hobby as a whole and the smaller niche of the individual run. I fail to see how that’s a bad thing. Punishing innovation bc certain runners don’t have easy access to the new method stifles creativity and ostracizes runners who dare to try new things and push limits. Again, I know nothing about EB speedrunning. My opinion primarily concerns the hobby as a whole, with this example being the jumping off point.
On the other hand, by your rules, it could be argued that a game genie is allowed. Personally, I think ANY non-standard EQUIPMENT should shift the run into a separate category, since at that point you are competing to see who can afford to find the most obscure (and therefore expensive) but helpful addons/peripherals. In this case, even if turbo pads are accepted, there is a BIG difference between telling a button to just repeat as fast as it can vs a program saying hit keys in a certain order. If anything, this should go in the TAS category, as this should DEFINITELY be considered tool assisted... And there is a reason that a TAS category is created for speedrunning, it is just never going to be fair to put a human up against a computer in such things.
This is the way. As Taylor pointed out, if it can be done on originald hardware and approved peripherals, its all good. RE: Game Genie Easy, its in the rules to not use GG, ProActionReplay or similar methods to inject or edit game code. If the mods decide to ban altogether Turbo controllers, go ahead. But by selectively picking one or the other it could easily be seen as an attempt to shape the leaderboards.
"But as far as I can tell, if they’re using an original copy of the game, running it on original hardware and using peripherals in the way they were programmed to work, I don’t see a problem." -This
I'm vary much in the camp of.. Turbo and macro controllers shouldn't be used. I would argue using them would fall under TAS , Tool Assisted Speedrun because you are using outside equipment to assist you. But that's just me.
Definitely a DQ, not a ban. You need people doing stuff like this to help with rulings. Nobody expected the konami commander, but now you know. Seems weird he'd think this would fly though lol, it's kinda clearly cheating 😅
Well, it's not quite the same as TAS, since you would still have to do some manual positioning before the macro would work as intended. So I think it should either be it's own category if there is enough interest, or just disqualified.
@@LucianDevine You realize that TAS literally just means "Tool-assisted speedrun" right? A tool's assistance is a tool assistance, whether you're manipulating the game frame by frame or using a utility that gives an unfair advantage. Turbo, in and of itself, is considered a tool. That's why it's banned in the vast majority of categories.
Does using turbo buttons count as TAS then? I already know your answer, why don't you explain it to other speed run communities? People have some specific concepts that come to mind when they think TAS, and it isn't a speed run where ANY tools are used Edit:fucking lmao turbo is allowed in this run. Are ALL of them TAS then? Should they be moved into the TAS category and compete against real TAS or is your understanding and opinion flawed?
This definitely breaks the rule, but if the runner did it in good faith and the community thinks they should stay in the community, I think they should adjust the runs time as if they were using a normal turbo button. Since this only affects text speed, theoretically they can just figure out how long the text boxes take with a normal turbo button, and apply that time to the run instead of the reduced text box speed. That way the actual gameplay of the run determines their time.
Personally I think it should just be grandfathered in if they decide to reject the controller. Take out the time saved by it as accurately as possible. It wasn't intentional but it was in a grey area
I'm not incredibly well schooled when it comes to speed running tech, but In my mind using the functions on that controller sound more akin to using a TASbot and not a turbo controller
Also, I don't think something should count as an EarthBound speedrun until people have completed a Groffian journey to understand the true nature of the self.
Be it all honest, my personal opionion is that the three runs should be moved to another category, and allowed there, I'd like to see what the community comes up when abusing macros (I'm aware mods have already disallowed, but my opinion is still the same :) )
I'd like to point out what you said in your video, the turbo was allowed for greater accessibility for the speedrun. If these aren't disqualified now every top speedrunner has to hunt down a specific controller to be competitive (although you could make the same argument for the turbo controller). Hardware can already be a huge pain in the ass to acquire for older games, and I think allowing a specific programmable controller would make that aspect even worse. I really like this video, it brings up a controversial subject without condemning anyone.
If they're going to allow turbo, I think they should look at things like this case-by-case. If the commands were used to do important tricks like the stairs or RNG manip, then I think it would be questionable, but if it's just for the sake of mashing, then you could argue that the macro is just a better turbo.
If people are allowed to create/execute "tech" by altering the readable surface of a CD (this was for a SpongeBob game, I think?) or by baking their famicoms/carts (Dragon Quest 3, I think?) then I don't see why this shouldn't be allowed, especially if other alternate controllers are already allowed.
If anything asterisk them. Take away the official WR title if you must but allow them to stay listed for referance He didnt break any rules more then he interpreted them in unintended ways.
Macro commands seem like a pretty distinct line from regular turbo, but if you’re allowed to use two turbo controllers at the same time I think you could probably replicate the strategy that record had by running the turbo at half the frame rate of the game
Plot Twist: He's trying to intentionally get the Konami Commander controller banned because people might think it's too close to being a real time version of TAS equipment.
He used proper hardware and no outside tools. He used a fancy, OFFICIAL controller for turbos, which is within the rules. He simply found a loophole. His records should stand, and he should be commended for finding another way to speed up something like button mashing beyond simple turbo controllers.
I would argue that what the he did was setting up a simple macro command and not just a turbo input. I believe that the EarthBound speed running community will need to clarify their rules about turbo, macros and other potential automated aids because they seam to give a significant advantage. If they want to allow macros with no restrictions so would i argue that TAS could be allowed since that is "just" a really complicated macro but they would violate the spirit of the competition IMO. What ever comes to pass so do i hope that the player Octopuscal is not penalized since he seams to have been forthcoming about what he was doing and it is seams to not have been done with malicious intent.
I always prefer the approach of being permissible with the details being made widely available. To me, the distinction here is no different than the distinction between turbo and non-turbo, it's a third facet that can be included in the time. For some, speedrunning is about getting the fastest times by any means necessary (to paraphrase). Typically this means by exploiting glitches, but using nonstandard hardware seems just as valid to me as exploiting a glitch; anything short of modifying the game's source code or using a device to alter the game's memory registers, as if to operate in a nonstandard way, should be fair game. With that said, I'll always favor glitchless as a category run with only standard controllers.
So Tool Assisted Speedruns would be the dominating thing on every board? What if I just record every input... and replace the bad ones at a later date to improve my time with this new run?
Not wanting to smartass, but hardware modification and advantage giving hardware is, if not stated otherwise, banned from literally any speedrun. Exactly because of things like macros. Otherwise non accurate emulation would be the norm, too. Turbo generally is something different, because the games allowing them, are generally long RPG's, which runs literally ruin your hand without it.
So you're saying I could overclock my SNES and dominate all leaderboards? I mean, you did say "by any means necessary", even if it was paraphrasing. Oh, not what you meant? Not surprised, those are what we call nuances, and they are far more important than you think.
Not sure if I am too late to mention this, or if another did: Maybe you all can make speed-running categories for specific licensed hardware, such as one for that Konami controller and others. Then a category for using two controllers. That’s my two cents lol.
I think the solution should be a mod that skips all text boxes other than menus and then ban turbo. People don't watch speedruns for how fast text can scroll, and speedrunners don't want to wait for text either. If the difference between two speedruns is how fast their controller can mash through textboxes, then those textboxes just shouldn't be counted in the first place.
Ooooh, oooh, I still have my ASCII controller! (It's....in dire need of repairs. But still, HERE COMES AN EB WR, BAYBEE!) .... Oh right, I'm kinda crap at the game. Okay, well, MAYBE I'll PB....?
5:02 From that logic using a keyboard when running on emulator should be banned too, since you can reprogram the buttons to different keys. I know I'm probably part of the minority here, but I feel that if you are that determined to get the time save, you can buy the controller, not ban a run that didn't violate any of the rules.
Yeah, I mean...having a key repeating a macro is not something totally different from using a keyboard, binding your buttons to one key each...(s This is the exact reason, why most rules even state, that buttons have to be bound to one key each...and ONLY one key. But this goes even further than just re-mapping, this controller can do a frame perfect/pixel perfect tricks if they have setups.
@@neros_soren I understand that it is taking it a step further, but personally I am more interested in seeing how far the game can be pushed to its limits without breaking the category rules, whether it uses a controversial, but faster method or not. Quite honestly I am opposed to using a turbo controller in the first place as I consider button mashing a skill that should be rewarded to who can do it the fastest.
@@galaxymilky298 So...on hand hand you are saying "hey, as long as it doesn't break the rule, use every method possible" and on the other "I am against turbo to begin with". Idk man, I would argue that you are not an RPG runner, and I would even argue against you being a speedrunner. There's always nuance in ruling. One game might break by something, while on an other it helps in enjoying a run without ruining your body and injuring yourself. Plus, you compared a macro controller to a keyboard...at least you are quick on changing the topic, eh?
@@neros_soren I compared changing the key a button is assigned to on a keyboard as assigning a button to another button on a controller. and admittedly you are right with the argument that you only it assigned to 1 key on a keyboard and multiple on the gamepad. You also seem to have made an assumption from my last comment, as I'm more opposed to allowing turbo in the games rules, however if it is allowed I see no problem with using the mentioned controller, since like in my original comment I mentioned that if the time save was important enough to them they could buy it. And for the record if you click my channel name, you will see that I actually do run an RPG.
@@galaxymilky298 I did not assume, I made an assessment. It's unbelievable how people on the internet do not understand the difference. Especially because in that exact sentence, I literally pointed out, that you are at odds with yourself with the two statements I paraphrased. And since you are running an RPG, you should know why turbo is a thing for games. Which rarely is for convenience nor for it being faster, it's usually either: a) because the JP rules are adapted or b) The run is long and has so much text, that running it for a long period is dangerous to your health (FF9 being the big one here) Now for two more points. 1) "if it is allowed" is something different than "if it's not forbidden", latter means people are unaware of it. Which is the case here, the community was unaware of that controller, so no one had the discussion of it being a valid and "legal" option. Stating that it should be allowed, because there was no rule against it, is simply not how this works. Speedrun rules chance regularly, based on new findings or controversies. 2) You still ignore the fact, that modified or modified equal hardware is, as a general statement, forbidden in the speedrunning scene. Which is why it is always stated in the rules if it IS allowed. (some games allowing for reducing the original SNES controllers D-Pad pivot to be lowered, which is a modification, but also one that happens by simply using the controller anyways). By your logic, modding controller, and macro controller are allowed in every game that does not prohibit them in their rules. Now every community would need to put a new rule in, that prohibits it outright, because people don't manage to think for themselves. I might just be too long part of this, but back when this whole shebang was not mainstream, no one had to point out that a macro programmable controller is not valid to speedrun. Now we have a discussion about it's use, because there was no explicit rule against the use of a niche JP only controller. The runner in question could've asked the community BEFOREHAND if it's use is okay, would minimize the drama coming from it. Because now the question is not about if the controller is a valid option, the question also became if their runs are valid still.
I think that this should probably just be spun off into its own category, with the only hazard of that being creating another category. I think this looks just like automating or working around a long period of the game, and that is pretty much what speedrunning is about.
Turbofire controllers aren't rare. But when we start talking about obscure and rare japan only controllers that most people aren't going to be able to get their hands on as a requirement to beat a time because someone else used said controller, it pretty much disqualifies itself. To say nothing of the fact that a programmable controller clearly does things outside of human ability, which really puts it closer to a tool assisted run at that point.
I would definitely consider konami command contoller style programmed button sequences to be categorically different from mere turbo, and in some regards perhaps encroaching on TAS territory. No hard feelings against a runner that brought this to the fore, though I do think particular runs in questions being DQed without any other penalty makes sense.
but would turbo be programming a controller to mash a button or a series of buttons. i get that its controversial, but they will need to define what a turbo is and word it carefully other wise they are just splitting hairs
Honestly I think Turbo should be allowed in all games as long as it doesn't inherently break the game. While its possible to mash in a way that is responsible it could be very easy for someone who doesn't know how to mash safely (i.e. a kid) to hurt themselves in a way that can have lasting impact. Getting hurt for something you do for fun for a dumb reason is dumb lol.
many speedrunners who have to mash very often end up with severe wrist problems which can disable them for months-life. i agree with allowing turbo controllers
Either make it, it's own category.. or people will have to start buying konami controllers(seeing as people are using turbo controllers to run any% now) Why remove a new strat and DQ the new WR when nothing really was harmed.
Not sure how allowing a turbo controller makes it more accessible, if anything it makes it less accessible to speed run the game since unless you have that controller you’re at an automatic disadvantage. Seems really dumb to allow those in speed runs.
If you can't use any sort of similar programmable automation on emulators, that controller should not be allowed to be used. Period. That's a clear-cut DQ to me within the current ruleset.
Macros are banned in nearly every speedrun community. Turbo was allowed to make it more accessible, but allowing macros makes it less accessible considering there is only one controller that is capable of this for SNES. Tough call, but I'm leaning towards banning macros
To be fair, emulation will become a needed thing to speed run these games. Everything breaks in time. Everyone will have Macros... which is a TAS at that point.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 "Everyone will have Macros" says who? You? They're not allowed on any boards. You think this will change when all hardware solutions AND the efforts to restore them and give them new leases on life will expire (which is far from tomorrow, let me tell ya that)? Nay.
IMO Programing a controller to do inputs is akin to a TAS. You're not doing it, a computer is. The whole run should be tossed if that programable controller was used to input buttons
Honestly, this is exactly why I'm always on the side of rules blanketly banning turbo functionality. Third party controllers aren't manufactured to be comparable with each other, and actively compete with each other. That all being said, programmable macros in a speedrun? How did they have no inkling that that wouldn't be on. This feels like an example of "there's no rule against it, so do it until there is" kind of situation.
in my opinion, it should be that is the controller is readily accessible (which i doubt) then the functions on it are fair game. then again, my opinions are so incredibly WACK that i have no clue
Needs a ban and DQ. Allowing a rare controller trades the physical accessibility for a financial one. 7 seconds alone makes it pay to win in a speedrun like this. I can't imagine how much timesave it results in overall.
Nah youre being ridiculous dude. For starters, the controller is neither rare, nor expensive. You can get them on ebay all day for 10-20$. Second, the controller is an *officially licensed product*, not some bizarre madcats contraption. Third, there is no precedence of this being used before. He was neither malicious nor secretive about it. The fact is, no one really thought about using it before. DQ the run, but a ban? You're jumping the shark mate. And by your metrics, anyone with a turbo controller needs a DQ and ban because its a clear pay 2 win scheme because 2nd controllers require special inputs as well as buying the official controllers that are approved. Definitely pay to win.... Calm down, let it play out. Glad youre not a mod, holy shit...
@@JgHaverty I think you misinterpreted what I meant. Ban the controller not the player lol. Either way you raise some decent points, but try to be a little less aggressive next time. Have a good one.
@@Megazero88 yes i did; my bad. Calling for bans is almost always to the player; in regards to "cheating". That said , im not sure the "pay to win" aspect is appropriate due to aforementioned reasons. I think an easier solution is making a qualified product list of things that are allowed; with room to expand as needed ofc. Would keep things like this from occuring again. Anyway sorry for jumping to conclusions; the "ban" comment ruffled my feathers a bit lol. Cheers
no turbo controllers, nor any controller not designed to closely mimic the original design IMO. at this point, the guys are speedrunning a piece of hardware/a controller, not a game
I thought this video was going to be about abusing copy protection, somehow. It's not. Anyway… I don't think "turbo" functions should be allowed in hardcore speedrunning. Or, alternately, it should only be allowed to be as fast as the player. For example, I can do about 12 presses-per-second, consistently, so that would be my limit. Basically, if it can't be done by a human, it shouldn't be allowed in a speedrun. That's my thoughts. *Edit:* Oh! Or just make seperate leaderboards for Turbo / Script players. That seems fair to me.
While I think this is too close to TASing to be fair as a record, it's definitely a demonstration of skill and ingenuity deserving of at least informal recognition and praise.
They should be moved to their own category being they are programable buttons. Part of speed running is human error but if I can set up a run like a TAS Bot to ignore human error then did I win or my controller win? The point of turbo was to stop mashing... but now we've seen how big some turbo can give so we need limits. When a controversy happens in Speed Running they need to do what they do best... Make a new catagory.
Not a fan of this much hardware user aid. If this is allowed, a programmable button, why not add a serial port to your controller ( sounds fancyer than it actually is) and stream a full TAS as the "button program". I know this is nonsense, but in a way, there is little distinction in sending 3 presses with 1 button, or 1000s with that same button. Game should be played with hardware as original as possible. Glitches etc are fine, as long they are performer by a human with the intended hardware. I feel like, the record can't get any lower, let's change the rules. That's not how this works imho.
UPDATED 11/02/2021:
Thanks for watching! The turbo rule was amended to disallow “macros” on controllers, but regular rapidfire/turbo functions are still allowed. Remember that no runners mentioned knowingly broke any rules, or were considered to be cheating.
Be sure to give Octopuscal a sub! He's an amazing runner! He also recently got another mid 44 minute time without the mentioned controller!
ua-cam.com/channels/EepdDIGxjz7P7nKGNUCUTg.html
Yeah, allowing macros would've been BS
Edit: Thanks for the update. This was an interesting and somewhat interactive video.
Well. I guess he can always host the runs with the controller. It'd be nice to see it possibly become it's own category someday. RE3 community for example, agreed to allow a script that lessens already stressfull, run killing RNG. While thats different. I think it just goes to show, that if enough people agree? No method is really off the table until it's decided.
While I cannot say I am for them, despite using them for disability issues myself. I also cannot exclude them, as macros fall under the same classification as "tool assisted" runs. While I agree with them in amending the rules to disallow macros, at the same time the logic doesn't make much sense as again, tool assisted exists and DOES use several means including macros. If anything what would have made the most sense would be to have them placed in a strictly tool assisted any% vs. ommiting it entirely. Either way as of your upload at least, he still ahs the fastest run regardless.
Thanks for the good video.
Of course, I thought I might be disqualified, so I asked the question on Discord beforehand. But no one answered, so I used it. Also, 45:12 was on the leaderboard, so I figured it was allowed.
Personally, I don't mind being banned. But I wanted everyone to answer up front.
I would imagine if the runs got disqualified, there would be no ban since there was no malicious intent behind using the Konami controller.
I’m not a mod, but regardless of the controller I would say that you earned that 44, and I know you could do it again!
Thank you for your hard work in pushing the time down.
@@DoctorSwellman I'd like to hope that there won't be a ban! A run being removed or being put into a new category because it caused a rule to be created or changed is definitely not the same as knowingly cheating.
Pretty black and white. Only turbo is allowed. Removal from leaderboard is enough of a punishment though. Banning is just overkill for something the runner wasn't maliciously hiding from the community. Banning should be reserved for runners that are knowingly and purposely deceiving the community with unfair advantages.
Why wouldn’t they just add the time he made up from the extra inputs over an ascipad run? I feel like that would be akin to leveling the playing field and just tell him the exploit isn’t allowed anymore
@@jackclifton5434 It's not so much about the time as it is the possibly of human error as well, something that can happen in any speedrun. Macro buttons eliminate that since all you need to do from there is get in position, and have the macro button do the rest of the work.
I always love it when these speedrun documentaries are being serious in their topics and then someone's online name gets mentioned "he was using a new route created by Loli Illya"
Reminds me of one of Summoning Salt's videos on the history of SMB speedrunning. It was a pretty serious video until of the runners "420blazeit" got mentioned. That caught me so off-guard lol.
This was a historic find by BonerGuzzler69
I don't mind the colorful characters of history, it's when these speedrun docs explain at the start of every video what the goal of speedrunning is that jars me
Best one was the Japanese runner he mentioned (but didn’t have a vid playing for) was Shivering Erotic Banana
"This is a serious allegation that must be examined for legallity. If he cannot prove his run's legitimacy, FartD3vourer97 risks losing everything he worked so hard to acheive!"
*Fade to black. Melancholic music rises*
a special programmable controller seems like it would fall into TAS territory, as persistent precise timings like that would be much, much more difficult to do in a speedrun
Yeah I mean you are literally being assisted by a tool.
I gotta say that the macros able to be executed by that controller definitely make me think it should be banned or a separate category altogether
Personally as much as it sucks I think it either has to be disqualified or made into a separate category. The solution I see is similar to the emulator one, meaning make a list of approved controllers (like there are approved emulators for other games)
I like this approach. Gets rid of a lot of the "what ifs" and "well its not *specifically* banned.... so it might be ok?" scenarios.
@@JgHaverty I don't get why this is even a thing nowadays...can't be so hard to ASK if something is okay to use before you do so.
The excuse of "well no one stated it in the rules" does not work. I rarely see rules stating that TAS tools are forbidden...do we have to put that stuff in the rules of every game now? I would argue we should trust the minimal amount of intelligence to be there in every human being speedrunning.
@@neros_soren It's often easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. As for TAS, that's always a separate category, lol, and thus doesn't need to be stated.
I do 100% agree with the OP though. It either needs to be it's own category, and then gauge interest to see if it's worth keeping around, or just disqualify any runs that use it. Turbo is one thing, but programmable macro buttons is it's own thing.
@@neros_soren read the top comment on this video. Apperentyl, octopuscal asked beforehand and did not get a response. Now, we can argue if discord is the right place to ask for an official ruling, but it goes to show that it needs a process.
@@LucianDevine A TAS and TAS tools are two beast...I can do a non TAS run with tools provided and used in a TAS... why do people try to wise-arse factual statements?
Also...TAS is not a category, it's a way to do runs...
And your statement neither engaged with my point nor does it have anything to do with it, except for the wise-arsing part.
I never heard of this Konami controller before.
But being able to reprogram buttons is something that indeed can bring discussions with it along the way.
I know that a lot of NES speedruns have the rule to only program one action per button (and turbo is also almost never allowed).
I am curious how the EB community is going to handle this situation.
, if the Konami Controller is officially licensed by Nintendo, i'd say it should be counted as a legal device.
@@woobgamer5210But Nintendo isn’t the person overseeing these speedrunning communities.
When there's a lot of contention over something like this, I find the best resolution is to just make a new category
I think the real problem with using a macro controller is that it would open the floodgates for further arguments for macro use, whereas a turbo controller can only mash. It's unfortunate that this runner got caught up in all this, and I hope whatever the resolution on this ended up being, it didn't cause many issues.
This is more of a Tool Assisted run at this point
I think some important distinctions need to be made here. 1) Octopuscal did not maliciously try to hide the fact he used the controller. He was up front and honest about it from the get go. 2) he was using an officially licensed product that had hardware manipulations, not unakin to turbo controllers as well. 3) this was a "new" thing brought up that has no precedent before it 4) the allowance of turbo controllers does beget a "slippery slope" fallacy effect. If one controller is allowed, why not another "mod type" controller?
The very clear distinction should be made -> any % standard, and any % modded controller (of any type) with the restrictions implemented SPECIFICALLY. If macro controllers are disallowed, then so be it, but make it a clearly defined event and standard.
Calling for bans and dq's is preposterous. Hes not a cheating speedrunner using TAS or frame editing to cheat his runs; he used a bizarro controller that no one really thought to use before. An officially licensed product as well...
Thanks for the comment. Most of this was addressed in the video, and the term “cheating” was specifically not used because that’s not what it was.
The calling for bans or restrictions were for the controller and not the runner himself. He asked about it in the discord and no response was given at the time from the moderator team, so he went with it.
The runs being disqualified would have been from the use of the controller, which brings me to the next subject that was talked about. The controller was a command controller that basically used a macro function that could play back multiple inputs each frame, which is not simply a turbo function
Octopuscal has since obtained another sub 45 any% run with an approved controller, and the moderator team made the decision to add that restriction to the EB boards. This video was only made to bring light to an obscure situation, and create a frame of reference for other speed communities in case situations like this pop up for them.
While I appreciate the effort you made to inform myself and others of these things, it’s already been made clear in the video and description that no cheating occurred, and it was not made to tarnish octopuscal’s reputation in speedrunning
@@DoctorSwellman i was trying to address my perceived notions of players calling for a "ban". I misinterpreted one person in particular, but the comment wasnt intended for "you". I did watch the video and youre obviously more informed than most about it. I was clarifying for those that felt it was "cheating" and hes somehow a malicious runner. And to be fair, you really didn't clarify if that it was blown over as a controller issue only. Lot of cheaters getting outted for speedruns lately; and subsequently a lot of witch hunting going on. I wanted it specifically clear it wasnt "cheating", as your video doesnt make that statement directly.
Well most boards only allow OG hardware, so I'm not certain as to how much weight the "officially licensed" part of hardware would have in the balance. The reason turbo functionality (keyword here: functionality) was allowed was for QoL improvements, so that people wouldn't just mash their fingers to oblivion. However, a specific functionality that falls outside of OG hardware specs, and that was not greenlit (ie: programmable button sequences) used in conjunction with turbo made it way faster than it should've been.
It's the combination of a feature that has been greenlit by the community (ie: turbo) with one that was not, and never will be (ie: macros / programmable button sequences), that caused this huge boost in turbo performance.
Octo not hiding their methodology doesn't make their attempt any more or less legit; in fact it has no bearing on its legitimacy or lack thereof, depending on how you look at it. It would only have had an impact on Octo's character if they would've lied about it, which they did not. So it wouldn't make them a cheater per se. However, that bears no weight as to whether or not the run should be considered valid. To me, it shouldn't within the current set of rules, as allowing turbo functionality doesn't mean allowing all functionalities of every turbo controller out there, even those that fall out of scope from turbo. It means allowing turbo functionality in addition to what OG hardware can do; nothing else.
Again, the problem here doesn't lie with turbo nor the controller itself, but rather with an out-of-scope feature that said third-party controller possesses. Said controller being licensed or not holds no weight in this.
I wonder if there's a good tool to measure turbo frequency. Not everyone can get their hands on an asciiPad and it'd be neat to confirm whether third-party controllers have an unfair advantage. I'm entirely certain my horrible Turbo Touch doesn't.
LOL I havent seen one of those in a long time. Im sure theres a response tester somewhere; and I feel 10hz is probably specific to allow for most controllers? I couldnt say for sure, and its probably a hard thing to "prove" anyway.
Not sure why this was even a debate and how the speedrunner(s) themselves didn't know 100% that the Konami controller should not be allowed..
It's literally no different than a player who plays on a pc emulator and if they programed a macro on their gaming keyboard, so they can do multiple button combos/presses with a single keyboard button press.
Even they would cry foul if a emulator player was allowed to submit their record to the leaderboards and they were open about using keyboard macros... So the audacity that this person would think it would be okay just because it's a console controller.
I believe this should disqualify the controller AND the runs, as a programmable button sequence is, as you said in the video, not a Turbo button.
if the Konami Controller is officially licensed by Nintendo, i'd say it should be counted as a legal device.
@@woobgamer5210 The device should be legal the programing tas should not. Ie., use the controller without programing it? Sure. You are right Woob.
I still feel like being able to use turbo is even cheating.
The rule you brought up would be the perfect way to fix this whole mess, having a limit of button presses per sec, in order to have most turbo controllers be on the same footing.
otherwise that specific controller would surge in popularity, and thus price and decrease in availability to boot, making it impossible to compete with such time saves throughout.
Allowing turbo for text mashing is understandable for text-heavy games like RPGs.
Programmable inputs/macros are debatable depending on the game, but I think using them would generally be either put into a new category or completely disallowed.
I disagree with turbo for anything. Play the game, go fast, and beat it. It has to be all you.
@@foreignuser_ I usually agree in a general sense, but when there's a lot of text and all you can do about it is mash through it, then I don't see the harm in allowing everyone to use turbo for text mashing, as long as it's only used for text mashing.
@@jruler93 i'm not saying you're not reasonable and i have no skin in the game other than being a fan of speedrunning. thanks for the response and your thoughts.
my philosophy is that some games are just not going to be great choices for speedrunning and i would rather let those willing to do it on regular hardware do so.
if it's not fun to mash through text for someone, maybe there's a door open for you check out another game!
either way, love the stories and achievements speedrunners accomplish all the same.
I mean to me it’s like your running a marathon, yeah it can be mundane but just cause it’s repetitive (like running a marathon) doesn’t mean you should use some device to let you coast along that marathon, like giving a runner a skateboard or something.
I feel like a better term than "programmable button" would be "macro" or "turbo macro", as I feel like that's a more common term, although I am certainly not an unbiased observer
Neat analysis! Thanks for uploading!
I have nothing against tool-assisted speedruns, but this absolutely is a tool-assisted speedrun. As long as the records make that clear, then there's no issue.
Loving this kind of content Doc, please keep it up!
bruh that controllers turning it into a tas
I mean the rules didn't say anything about NOT being able to use one either so...... xD
Silliness aside I can see how that's like kinda encroaching TAS-esque territory, so it's certainly up for a ton of discussion, I'd imagine!
now that i finaly also watched this video here is my butter for the bread: wonderful video as always. loving the cuts with the script and the informations with it. and about the controller. octo did a fantastic job for sure, but wasnt turbo-controllers only allowed or was it "controllers with automatic inputs". cause the command controller as the name already suggests is not a turbo controller and was never market as one. at least thats my butter for the bread. keep it up ^^
it's like partial tool assistance to have a set of button inputs ready at any time. not good for a regular run.
The mere fact that he dug up a new controller should validate his run. Shit is analogue!
The name of the game for all competitions ought to be accessibility. If everyone knows about a particular tech, then it ought to be allowed, unless it requires the community states otherwise.
If everyone has access to this control or a simulator of this controller, then it probably ought to stand.
I don't see a controller which enables a few button presses to be mapped into an array for execution being similar to a TAS where hundreds of inputs may be mapped into a specific sequence and executed in any way the TAS'er desires.
I don’t run Earthbound nor do I know anything about the history of the run or the rules the community has in place. But as far as I can tell, if they’re using an original copy of the game, running it on original hardware and using peripherals in the way they were programmed to work, I don’t see a problem. The vast majority of runners wouldn’t be in WR record contention regardless of how they played the game, so talk of banning a certain peripheral only serves the top runners… typically the same runners who moderate the rules of a speedrun category. Is that a conflict of interest? I don’t know. What I do know is that innovation like this draws attention to the hobby as a whole and the smaller niche of the individual run. I fail to see how that’s a bad thing. Punishing innovation bc certain runners don’t have easy access to the new method stifles creativity and ostracizes runners who dare to try new things and push limits. Again, I know nothing about EB speedrunning. My opinion primarily concerns the hobby as a whole, with this example being the jumping off point.
On the other hand, by your rules, it could be argued that a game genie is allowed.
Personally, I think ANY non-standard EQUIPMENT should shift the run into a separate category, since at that point you are competing to see who can afford to find the most obscure (and therefore expensive) but helpful addons/peripherals.
In this case, even if turbo pads are accepted, there is a BIG difference between telling a button to just repeat as fast as it can vs a program saying hit keys in a certain order.
If anything, this should go in the TAS category, as this should DEFINITELY be considered tool assisted... And there is a reason that a TAS category is created for speedrunning, it is just never going to be fair to put a human up against a computer in such things.
@@Vertraic But Turbo be programming a controller to mash a button or a series of buttons, so in my eyes either than ban turbo or keep the run
This is the way. As Taylor pointed out, if it can be done on originald hardware and approved peripherals, its all good. RE: Game Genie Easy, its in the rules to not use GG, ProActionReplay or similar methods to inject or edit game code. If the mods decide to ban altogether Turbo controllers, go ahead. But by selectively picking one or the other it could easily be seen as an attempt to shape the leaderboards.
"But as far as I can tell, if they’re using an original copy of the game, running it on original hardware and using peripherals in the way they were programmed to work, I don’t see a problem." -This
@@Vertraic Yes, it is definitely Tool Assisted
The answer is kindo of simple, this should be a new category and maybe, it will make room to improvement.
I'm vary much in the camp of.. Turbo and macro controllers shouldn't be used.
I would argue using them would fall under TAS , Tool Assisted Speedrun because you are using outside equipment to assist you.
But that's just me.
Guess everyone trying to attempt runs on a serious level needs to hunt down one these rare konami macro controllers :D
Definitely a DQ, not a ban. You need people doing stuff like this to help with rulings. Nobody expected the konami commander, but now you know. Seems weird he'd think this would fly though lol, it's kinda clearly cheating 😅
I had one of those ASCIIPads growing up, didn't even want it for the turbo...it was just cheaper than the Nintendo controller lol
should go in the TAS category, since that's what pre-programmed frame perfect inputs are.
Well, it's not quite the same as TAS, since you would still have to do some manual positioning before the macro would work as intended. So I think it should either be it's own category if there is enough interest, or just disqualified.
Tool assist is tool assist. The controller is performing inputs at a humanly impossible rate.
@@Trelior But there is no need for it in TAS since everything is perfectly done frame by frame, thus taking out the need for the controller.
@@LucianDevine You realize that TAS literally just means "Tool-assisted speedrun" right? A tool's assistance is a tool assistance, whether you're manipulating the game frame by frame or using a utility that gives an unfair advantage.
Turbo, in and of itself, is considered a tool. That's why it's banned in the vast majority of categories.
Does using turbo buttons count as TAS then? I already know your answer, why don't you explain it to other speed run communities?
People have some specific concepts that come to mind when they think TAS, and it isn't a speed run where ANY tools are used
Edit:fucking lmao turbo is allowed in this run. Are ALL of them TAS then? Should they be moved into the TAS category and compete against real TAS or is your understanding and opinion flawed?
This definitely breaks the rule, but if the runner did it in good faith and the community thinks they should stay in the community, I think they should adjust the runs time as if they were using a normal turbo button. Since this only affects text speed, theoretically they can just figure out how long the text boxes take with a normal turbo button, and apply that time to the run instead of the reduced text box speed. That way the actual gameplay of the run determines their time.
I think that for me it is one of the most difficult speedruns that I have seen
Personally I think it should just be grandfathered in if they decide to reject the controller. Take out the time saved by it as accurately as possible. It wasn't intentional but it was in a grey area
now to remove the music from the game and make it speedrun viable... :Smilers:
I absolutely love earthbound and still play it on my original snes. I've never tried a speed run, but I just might for fun
I'm not incredibly well schooled when it comes to speed running tech, but In my mind using the functions on that controller sound more akin to using a TASbot and not a turbo controller
Also, I don't think something should count as an EarthBound speedrun until people have completed a Groffian journey to understand the true nature of the self.
I think any% should be just that. Any% no matter the option. Let people break games to the code, that makes them so much fun to watch and support.
It deserves to be in a separate category.
Be it all honest, my personal opionion is that the three runs should be moved to another category, and allowed there, I'd like to see what the community comes up when abusing macros (I'm aware mods have already disallowed, but my opinion is still the same :) )
I'd like to point out what you said in your video, the turbo was allowed for greater accessibility for the speedrun. If these aren't disqualified now every top speedrunner has to hunt down a specific controller to be competitive (although you could make the same argument for the turbo controller). Hardware can already be a huge pain in the ass to acquire for older games, and I think allowing a specific programmable controller would make that aspect even worse.
I really like this video, it brings up a controversial subject without condemning anyone.
One is money the other is limitations of people. The first can be argued for any equipment, the second is governed by law and social norms.
If they're going to allow turbo, I think they should look at things like this case-by-case. If the commands were used to do important tricks like the stairs or RNG manip, then I think it would be questionable, but if it's just for the sake of mashing, then you could argue that the macro is just a better turbo.
Believe it or not ASCII is pronounced ass-key
i love my ass key
If people are allowed to create/execute "tech" by altering the readable surface of a CD (this was for a SpongeBob game, I think?) or by baking their famicoms/carts (Dragon Quest 3, I think?) then I don't see why this shouldn't be allowed, especially if other alternate controllers are already allowed.
There should definitely be an original hardware and no external exploit category and a free-for-all category
Personally I think either ban macros and DQ the runs or make it a separate category (any% w/ macros) and move the runs there
If anything asterisk them. Take away the official WR title if you must but allow them to stay listed for referance
He didnt break any rules more then he interpreted them in unintended ways.
Macro commands seem like a pretty distinct line from regular turbo, but if you’re allowed to use two turbo controllers at the same time I think you could probably replicate the strategy that record had by running the turbo at half the frame rate of the game
Plot Twist: He's trying to intentionally get the Konami Commander controller banned because people might think it's too close to being a real time version of TAS equipment.
Oh a speedruning martyr. Like the guy who made a very blatantly spliced Celeste run for the purpose of forcing proof standards to improve
Weird, I remember programmable macro controllers on the N64, but I never had a SNES one
He used proper hardware and no outside tools. He used a fancy, OFFICIAL controller for turbos, which is within the rules. He simply found a loophole. His records should stand, and he should be commended for finding another way to speed up something like button mashing beyond simple turbo controllers.
If this is allowed what is stopping me from creating y own custom controller and programming a tas onto it?
I would argue that what the he did was setting up a simple macro command and not just a turbo input. I believe that the EarthBound speed running community will need to clarify their rules about turbo, macros and other potential automated aids because they seam to give a significant advantage. If they want to allow macros with no restrictions so would i argue that TAS could be allowed since that is "just" a really complicated macro but they would violate the spirit of the competition IMO.
What ever comes to pass so do i hope that the player Octopuscal is not penalized since he seams to have been forthcoming about what he was doing and it is seams to not have been done with malicious intent.
I always prefer the approach of being permissible with the details being made widely available. To me, the distinction here is no different than the distinction between turbo and non-turbo, it's a third facet that can be included in the time.
For some, speedrunning is about getting the fastest times by any means necessary (to paraphrase). Typically this means by exploiting glitches, but using nonstandard hardware seems just as valid to me as exploiting a glitch; anything short of modifying the game's source code or using a device to alter the game's memory registers, as if to operate in a nonstandard way, should be fair game. With that said, I'll always favor glitchless as a category run with only standard controllers.
So Tool Assisted Speedruns would be the dominating thing on every board?
What if I just record every input... and replace the bad ones at a later date to improve my time with this new run?
Not wanting to smartass, but hardware modification and advantage giving hardware is, if not stated otherwise, banned from literally any speedrun.
Exactly because of things like macros. Otherwise non accurate emulation would be the norm, too.
Turbo generally is something different, because the games allowing them, are generally long RPG's, which runs literally ruin your hand without it.
Just watch and make TAS'S if that's what you want. You know, Tool Asisted Speedruns.
So you're saying I could overclock my SNES and dominate all leaderboards? I mean, you did say "by any means necessary", even if it was paraphrasing.
Oh, not what you meant? Not surprised, those are what we call nuances, and they are far more important than you think.
Not sure if I am too late to mention this, or if another did: Maybe you all can make speed-running categories for specific licensed hardware, such as one for that Konami controller and others. Then a category for using two controllers. That’s my two cents lol.
I think the solution should be a mod that skips all text boxes other than menus and then ban turbo.
People don't watch speedruns for how fast text can scroll, and speedrunners don't want to wait for text either. If the difference between two speedruns is how fast their controller can mash through textboxes, then those textboxes just shouldn't be counted in the first place.
i knew it, i knew it was gonna be turbo
I mean its clearly not a "turbo" function, but ....
Well now it's time for me to buy yet another obscure SNES controller :P
Ooooh, oooh, I still have my ASCII controller! (It's....in dire need of repairs. But still, HERE COMES AN EB WR, BAYBEE!)
....
Oh right, I'm kinda crap at the game. Okay, well, MAYBE I'll PB....?
5:02 From that logic using a keyboard when running on emulator should be banned too, since you can reprogram the buttons to different keys. I know I'm probably part of the minority here, but I feel that if you are that determined to get the time save, you can buy the controller, not ban a run that didn't violate any of the rules.
Yeah, I mean...having a key repeating a macro is not something totally different from using a keyboard, binding your buttons to one key each...(s
This is the exact reason, why most rules even state, that buttons have to be bound to one key each...and ONLY one key.
But this goes even further than just re-mapping, this controller can do a frame perfect/pixel perfect tricks if they have setups.
@@neros_soren I understand that it is taking it a step further, but personally I am more interested in seeing how far the game can be pushed to its limits without breaking the category rules, whether it uses a controversial, but faster method or not. Quite honestly I am opposed to using a turbo controller in the first place as I consider button mashing a skill that should be rewarded to who can do it the fastest.
@@galaxymilky298 So...on hand hand you are saying "hey, as long as it doesn't break the rule, use every method possible" and on the other "I am against turbo to begin with".
Idk man, I would argue that you are not an RPG runner, and I would even argue against you being a speedrunner.
There's always nuance in ruling. One game might break by something, while on an other it helps in enjoying a run without ruining your body and injuring yourself.
Plus, you compared a macro controller to a keyboard...at least you are quick on changing the topic, eh?
@@neros_soren I compared changing the key a button is assigned to on a keyboard as assigning a button to another button on a controller. and admittedly you are right with the argument that you only it assigned to 1 key on a keyboard and multiple on the gamepad. You also seem to have made an assumption from my last comment, as I'm more opposed to allowing turbo in the games rules, however if it is allowed I see no problem with using the mentioned controller, since like in my original comment I mentioned that if the time save was important enough to them they could buy it. And for the record if you click my channel name, you will see that I actually do run an RPG.
@@galaxymilky298 I did not assume, I made an assessment. It's unbelievable how people on the internet do not understand the difference. Especially because in that exact sentence, I literally pointed out, that you are at odds with yourself with the two statements I paraphrased.
And since you are running an RPG, you should know why turbo is a thing for games. Which rarely is for convenience nor for it being faster, it's usually either:
a) because the JP rules are adapted
or
b) The run is long and has so much text, that running it for a long period is dangerous to your health (FF9 being the big one here)
Now for two more points.
1) "if it is allowed" is something different than "if it's not forbidden", latter means people are unaware of it. Which is the case here, the community was unaware of that controller, so no one had the discussion of it being a valid and "legal" option. Stating that it should be allowed, because there was no rule against it, is simply not how this works. Speedrun rules chance regularly, based on new findings or controversies.
2) You still ignore the fact, that modified or modified equal hardware is, as a general statement, forbidden in the speedrunning scene. Which is why it is always stated in the rules if it IS allowed. (some games allowing for reducing the original SNES controllers D-Pad pivot to be lowered, which is a modification, but also one that happens by simply using the controller anyways). By your logic, modding controller, and macro controller are allowed in every game that does not prohibit them in their rules. Now every community would need to put a new rule in, that prohibits it outright, because people don't manage to think for themselves.
I might just be too long part of this, but back when this whole shebang was not mainstream, no one had to point out that a macro programmable controller is not valid to speedrun. Now we have a discussion about it's use, because there was no explicit rule against the use of a niche JP only controller.
The runner in question could've asked the community BEFOREHAND if it's use is okay, would minimize the drama coming from it. Because now the question is not about if the controller is a valid option, the question also became if their runs are valid still.
I gotta go with DQ. That's a tool, assisting the speedrun. I think there's a term for those.
Kind of a bad argument since you can say the exact same thing about using turbo... and turbo is allowed.
@@danlorett2184 you could argue the controller is a tool. You could also argue that i am a tool
I think that this should probably just be spun off into its own category, with the only hazard of that being creating another category. I think this looks just like automating or working around a long period of the game, and that is pretty much what speedrunning is about.
lol...controversy - i am sure we all change button commands on fifa/cod/ff7/tekken/etc ... i thought it part of the games "controller settings:L"
any% runs are not glitchless runs so controller input glitches are totaly fine. for the rest there are glitchless runs
I see that you are a guy gas pronouncer as well!
When in doubt, make a new category
when you make a deal with the devil and allow turbo, you reap what you sow
Turbofire controllers aren't rare.
But when we start talking about obscure and rare japan only controllers that most people aren't going to be able to get their hands on as a requirement to beat a time because someone else used said controller, it pretty much disqualifies itself.
To say nothing of the fact that a programmable controller clearly does things outside of human ability, which really puts it closer to a tool assisted run at that point.
I would definitely consider konami command contoller style programmed button sequences to be categorically different from mere turbo, and in some regards perhaps encroaching on TAS territory.
No hard feelings against a runner that brought this to the fore, though I do think particular runs in questions being DQed without any other penalty makes sense.
0:12 Hol up is that RT
well, they allowed turbo controllers and a turbo controller is what he used.
Turbo controllers typically don't have programmable button sequence functionalities. Herein lies the difference. And it's a major one.
but would turbo be programming a controller to mash a button or a series of buttons.
i get that its controversial, but they will need to define what a turbo is
and word it carefully other wise they are just splitting hairs
Honestly I think Turbo should be allowed in all games as long as it doesn't inherently break the game. While its possible to mash in a way that is responsible it could be very easy for someone who doesn't know how to mash safely (i.e. a kid) to hurt themselves in a way that can have lasting impact. Getting hurt for something you do for fun for a dumb reason is dumb lol.
many speedrunners who have to mash very often end up with severe wrist problems which can disable them for months-life. i agree with allowing turbo controllers
Either make it, it's own category.. or people will have to start buying konami controllers(seeing as people are using turbo controllers to run any% now) Why remove a new strat and DQ the new WR when nothing really was harmed.
Not sure how allowing a turbo controller makes it more accessible, if anything it makes it less accessible to speed run the game since unless you have that controller you’re at an automatic disadvantage. Seems really dumb to allow those in speed runs.
imo hes clear. if it wasnt stated in rules then its good
way late on this but tbh it feels like it kinda falls under tas to some extend at that point using macros
the programmable controller would definitely push it towards being more like a TAS, but i don't really know if it should be disqualified or not
If you can't use any sort of similar programmable automation on emulators, that controller should not be allowed to be used. Period. That's a clear-cut DQ to me within the current ruleset.
Macros are banned in nearly every speedrun community. Turbo was allowed to make it more accessible, but allowing macros makes it less accessible considering there is only one controller that is capable of this for SNES.
Tough call, but I'm leaning towards banning macros
To be fair, emulation will become a needed thing to speed run these games.
Everything breaks in time.
Everyone will have Macros... which is a TAS at that point.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 There's a huge gap in using emulation and having macros...
@@Buglin_Burger7878 "Everyone will have Macros" says who? You?
They're not allowed on any boards. You think this will change when all hardware solutions AND the efforts to restore them and give them new leases on life will expire (which is far from tomorrow, let me tell ya that)? Nay.
IMO Programing a controller to do inputs is akin to a TAS. You're not doing it, a computer is. The whole run should be tossed if that programable controller was used to input buttons
Honestly, this is exactly why I'm always on the side of rules blanketly banning turbo functionality. Third party controllers aren't manufactured to be comparable with each other, and actively compete with each other. That all being said, programmable macros in a speedrun? How did they have no inkling that that wouldn't be on. This feels like an example of "there's no rule against it, so do it until there is" kind of situation.
in my opinion, it should be that is the controller is readily accessible (which i doubt) then the functions on it are fair game.
then again, my opinions are so incredibly WACK that i have no clue
Assey pad.
Needs a ban and DQ. Allowing a rare controller trades the physical accessibility for a financial one. 7 seconds alone makes it pay to win in a speedrun like this. I can't imagine how much timesave it results in overall.
Nah youre being ridiculous dude. For starters, the controller is neither rare, nor expensive. You can get them on ebay all day for 10-20$. Second, the controller is an *officially licensed product*, not some bizarre madcats contraption. Third, there is no precedence of this being used before. He was neither malicious nor secretive about it. The fact is, no one really thought about using it before. DQ the run, but a ban? You're jumping the shark mate.
And by your metrics, anyone with a turbo controller needs a DQ and ban because its a clear pay 2 win scheme because 2nd controllers require special inputs as well as buying the official controllers that are approved. Definitely pay to win....
Calm down, let it play out. Glad youre not a mod, holy shit...
@@JgHaverty I think you misinterpreted what I meant. Ban the controller not the player lol. Either way you raise some decent points, but try to be a little less aggressive next time. Have a good one.
@@Megazero88 yes i did; my bad. Calling for bans is almost always to the player; in regards to "cheating". That said , im not sure the "pay to win" aspect is appropriate due to aforementioned reasons. I think an easier solution is making a qualified product list of things that are allowed; with room to expand as needed ofc. Would keep things like this from occuring again. Anyway sorry for jumping to conclusions; the "ban" comment ruffled my feathers a bit lol. Cheers
@@JgHaverty Haha it happens. It was a while ago but the word ban was used in the video I think so I was parroting that. Have a good one!
@@Megazero88 now kees
no turbo controllers, nor any controller not designed to closely mimic the original design IMO. at this point, the guys are speedrunning a piece of hardware/a controller, not a game
This is basically inserting a mini TAS into the intro.
I thought this video was going to be about abusing copy protection, somehow. It's not.
Anyway… I don't think "turbo" functions should be allowed in hardcore speedrunning. Or, alternately, it should only be allowed to be as fast as the player. For example, I can do about 12 presses-per-second, consistently, so that would be my limit.
Basically, if it can't be done by a human, it shouldn't be allowed in a speedrun. That's my thoughts.
*Edit:* Oh! Or just make seperate leaderboards for Turbo / Script players. That seems fair to me.
TURBO!!!!
Turbo controllers are allowed not programable controls. Done deal ban his runs.
I think it's good.
I would think it just becomes a TAS right?
While I think this is too close to TASing to be fair as a record, it's definitely a demonstration of skill and ingenuity deserving of at least informal recognition and praise.
I think it would have to be proven that his programmable controller provided benefits beyond just button mashing
They should be moved to their own category being they are programable buttons.
Part of speed running is human error but if I can set up a run like a TAS Bot to ignore human error then did I win or my controller win? The point of turbo was to stop mashing... but now we've seen how big some turbo can give so we need limits.
When a controversy happens in Speed Running they need to do what they do best...
Make a new catagory.
Not a fan of this much hardware user aid. If this is allowed, a programmable button, why not add a serial port to your controller ( sounds fancyer than it actually is) and stream a full TAS as the "button program". I know this is nonsense, but in a way, there is little distinction in sending 3 presses with 1 button, or 1000s with that same button.
Game should be played with hardware as original as possible. Glitches etc are fine, as long they are performer by a human with the intended hardware.
I feel like, the record can't get any lower, let's change the rules. That's not how this works imho.
Turbo =/= Macros