Thanks for watching. I'm not really happy with how this video turned out... and I'm sorry for not delivering better quality data and research. But not to worry... from now on, I'm sticking to projects, functional prints, 3D printing news, and builds. Love you guys ❤
You did more than enough! Thank you for this insight and the effort was very visible. I really enjoyed watching and it taught me what I've wondered for many years! We all love you ❤
I love it how your rigor is similar to mine. Starts off well, great idea and as things start to take a wrong turn you just continue anyway because you don't want to start over. And I completely understand that. I have my fair share of just improvising as I go along and maybe not enough to be an academic, but gets stuff done. So kudos for that
First rule : maintain and clean buildplates ! As CookieEliminator and you wisely said, a properly maintained and clean print surface tremendously helps. As for adhesives, I mostly use them rather as "release" agents than anything else. PET/PETG/PCTG/Flex stick too well to build surfaces, hence that use. Same thing for TitanX and ApolloX from FormFutura, respectively ABS and ASA, which I print a lot : they stick too well, hence the use of adhesive as separating interface. Which is best ? 3DLac works very well, same thing for Magigoo, same thing for FormFutura EasyFix series. VisionMiner's Nanopolymer also works very well. There is no "best" to me, at least according to my own mileage.
You should also try some different buildplates. I don't mean it as one company vs. another and while there's differences between manufacturers, I mean it more as the difference in texturing of the build plates. The more you have surface area, the more you have grip and while the rough textured build plates seen to do the job, but the holographic "pretty" build plates are something else with that extremely small texturing.
This is a great example of why experimental science is hard. Being objective, having consistent experimental parameters, having a good experimental design are all difficult to accomplish. For me, a typical experiment would take between 3 to 6 months just to work out the methodology.
@thenextlayer I really appreciate the tests actually. It's nice to see someone who has experience and opinions. Personally I'd rather see tests from someone who's able to talk about his testing limitations than somebody who thinks their test is perfect
The video was entertaining, informative and concluded with useful information on the products. There's no need to beat on yourself for the "weak science". Method accuracy paralysis has killed so many 3D printing channels already, so I'm glad to see you still grinding and providing honest effort.
Yeah, I considered adding hairspray, but I was worried about it getting in other lanes and messing up my data. Lital did I know that 1 million other things were going to mess up my data
No kidding. Who'd have guessed that the saviour of 80s glam bands and beehive waitresses would also make the most versatile and affordable temporary print interface layer?
I experimented last week with glue Vs hairspray. Hairspray is easier to clean with iso propyl alcohol. Hairspray had better adhesion, for some reason my glue prints warped. Glue is not easy to apply in an even layer, also by pushing on the print bed to apply the glue I have to relevel, whereas with hairspray I do a couple of spray between prints, without cleaning and have reliable adhesion.
@inkavanderbijl7504 This, too, has been my experience. I have perfectly flat first layers and a quick rinse under warm water washes off any hair spray residue left on the part. Also keeps PETG from bonding TOO well with my PEI plates, assuring removal without damage to the plate.
Thanks for attempting this! I have a X1C and a T1Pro, I primarily print PLA and PETG on textured PEI plates at "out of box" bed temps. With any combo of those, I haven't encountered adhesion problems such as plagued me with my MK3S+. I >do< however use "glue stick". But primarily for easier release. I bought a package of cheap "Amazon basics" purple glue sticks. I clean my plates with dish soap, let them dry over night. I apply a thin amount of the stick in a back and forth motion, then I use a "blue shop towel" saturated with 99% IPA in a random circular motion to "flow" the glue and even it out. This works well for me, but I suppose what I should do is run some tests doing only half the plate, printing the same model on both sides and see if I'm REALLY getting any benefit from my effort.
I’ve heard that, and I emailed back-and-forth with them, but they were not able to ship to Israel. It’s a real bummer because that is one of the ones I was most excited to test.
It's amazing, I use it for everything and it only needs to be reapplied very infrequently. Works for literally all materials except PP, and that is easy enough to use packing tape for.
I like that you made this video. People will give you crap about what could have been done better but they do that to Stefan and Igor too, you just can't please everyone, but this is a test I haven't seen anyone else do so leaving it to others didn't work.
That’s the Vision Miner Nano Polymer, right? I’ve been using it for like 2 years now and it’s honestly incredible. I run a small print garden and I really don’t worry about bed adhesion anymore. My only complaint is the application process, but I recently printed a little TPU squeegee and it’s great for a nice, thick layer that doesn’t end up in the brush.
In my experience with printing many KG of ASA, magigoo PC is a must have. It will pull the build plate off the magnet before it detaches. I can't remove prints from the build plate until it's cooled to at least 60C or lower.
Yeah, that’s been my experience too, except I think I accidentally used the Piet version for this video and once I realized it was too far to turn back
Elmer's craft bond spray adhesive.... preheat bed to 50c spray a decent amount onto a paper towel, you dont want to have the paper towel stick it must be pretty soaked whipe down build plate once. This has worked super well for me realeses pretty easy and has insane longevity I have a pretty dusty room and work area and I haven't cleaned my bed in months.
Thanks for all your hard work. It's always informative. For my money, a good quality hairspray has been all I ever needed. I only print in PLA and PETG. For PLA it's helps adhesion even on my textured PEI plate. For PETG, as you and others have noted, it sticks to every frigging thing. Thankfully, after the post-print cooling, I find the hairspray is a great release agent! So much so that PETG no longer leaves residue on the plate after printing. Hairspray in a big can is cheap, the can will last a long way, and the spray can is easy to master to get a consistent, even coating on the plate. Best of all, it washes away quite easily with some warm water and some elbow grease. Your Mileage May Vary, so use what information you have at your fingertips and make your own judgement on what works best for you.
Works for me. I only have to adjust the squish of the filament sometimes. Working on 25+ prints. I have not even cleaned the build plate yet. Parts stick till the plate cools. I print ABS only no fans in a tent.
@DanielSanPedro I used pure book binding PVA (essentially just acid free PVA), without mixing, and just smeared it into the engineering plate. I printed a part and adhesion was golden. However, the glue permanently embedded itself into the plate. I thought it would've smoothened out with the heat and drying but it didn't. But adhesion was never an issue again. I had to toss the plate though because it was no longer flat (thanks to the permanent globs). After having issues a few months later on Golden PEI, I tried it again but thinned it with water and made sure it was extremely thin. Baked it in the printer until dry and now no more adhesion issues. It's great because now I can use cooling with pretty much any filament (minus PP and really wide pure PA, Kodak Brand). Not sure if it's this specific brand of PVA or if any type works. I just bought it a few years ago to rebind an old Bible for my grandmother. I'm glad to see someone else found this method too.
Great video Jonathan - lots of work and really appreciated you being very clear on your sponsorship of one of the products. This was lots of work - and while not perfect - it was informative and really liked you covered the residue portion of the use of adhesives. Its why i perfer the raw dog option, espectially the new Cryogrip build plate sheets.
In this modern age of various bed sheets (especially textured PEI), I find I only need glue stick for particularly sticky filaments like TPU, which tend to over-adhere. So, I am only rarely bothering with glue as a *removal* aid, not an adhesion aid. In this case, I'm using a basic PVA since it is super easy to remove with just water. Of course, if I were printing PC/Nylon, I might be more reliant on glues. My conclusion is that *most* people won't need a fancy expensive adhesive if they are using a print bed suitable for the filament and most common filaments (PLA, PETG, ABS) aren't going to need it at all. 99% of people don't start out printing Nylon. Most don't even start out with ABS since PLA and PETG went mainstream.
For me, I just can;'t get the bamboo basic green to stick to the pei textured sheet no matter what i do, it just gets off. any other colour that arrived with the printer is fine. But overall, I just use the basic liquid glue because it's the easiest to get evenly spread out.
Man i really feel like you were overly rushed to get this video out. Really like the concept of the video and would really like to see this revisited with other products and the bed heated to the proper temp for each material (glass transition temperature). But yeah its hard to take any chart results seriously when there was so many issues and errors with the process. As soon as you saw so many print fails you should have taken a step back and reapproached your testing.
It's true. I was rushing to meet deadlines and get the video out (and the one after that). Thorough science isn't my thing, to begin with, but also, it doesn't like to conform to a once-a-week UA-cam schedule..
@thenextlayer maybe split up series like this to one material test a week to keep the release schedule and tie everything together with a best all in one product video afterwards? Trying to cram everything into one video and dealing with failures like that seems super stressful.
I often use a generic white glue for woodworking called Mekol, which I believe is similar to Elmer's glue. This adhesive also helps prevent PETG from sticking too strongly to the PEI plate. I apply it with a spatula. Applying a thicker layer can be useful in emergencies when certain parts lose adhesion during printing.
First, great production quality as always. The topic is really important, and as I have just attempted and failed, due to adhesion issues, in my first ASA printing project, really timely (for me). I used a smooth PEI plate, cleaned and scrubbed with Dawn & hot water. After that failed, I cleaned and scrubbed it again, and applied Vision miner nano polymer adhesive. the print made it further but still came off the plate during printing causing spaghetti. This video / testing was clearly a lot of work... too much for 1 person probably, and honestly should have also included built plates as a variable, as already mentioned by others (even more work). Perhaps in the future you can revisit this topic and split up the work by working collaboratively with some of your youtube content peers.
Great efforts! When I was printing on a Glasplate I love to use 3Dlake with great success - changing to PEI (structured) I don’t need any extra material - lastly I tested PEA plate I needed an release material - everything sticked too well.
Shabbat Shalom. When I was running my Ender-3 S1 I ended up getting Magigoo based on your suggestion and had some luck. At that time I was only printing PLA. Since switching to 2 AnyCubic machines I haven’t ever even needed it, rawdog PEI plates and no issues printing PLA or PETG.
i been using 3dlac for years now, one of the best i have used, both for how well it works espcialyl with abs, it last forever and how easy it is to wash off
The best bed adhesion is a plate that properly maintained. My 2yo PEI plate from Bambu still holds every filament perfectly without any additional glue.
One thing I would be worried about is how ripping off the prints before the "self-release" properties of some of the materials may affect how much of the adhesive is pulled off for longevity testing. If there's a follow up, I'd like to see a comparison where prints are only pulled off of the hot bed during the first print of the model and last print of the model, with however many runs of the model you decide in between with "normal" removal with a cooled bed. Also I'd like to see a comparison with Vision Miner's Nano Polymer Adhesive if you have access to it.
Sometimes you can avoid using adhesives by experimenting with types of build plates and temperature. I had trouble with PC-CF on a satin sheet with the recommended 90°C bed temperature. It warped and fell of during printing. Same print, but with 130°C came out perfectly, even this is way beyond what is recommended on the spool. Prusa has a nice table which bed is best suitable for each material. I stick to that and I avoid printing different materials on the same plate. My PETG won't stick to the satin sheet anymore, if I print PLA on it. I have to thoroughly wash it with dish soap and alcohol to get PETG sticking again.
I appreciate the effort. Even if the data is spotty, it shows us a few things when we look at the whole data set. Personally, i'm more in the simple is better camp. Also cheaper is better. Thanks again for your efforts!
Aside from the glue stick that shipped with my MK3S, the only bed adhesion products I've used are blue painter's tape and Layerneer's Bed Weld. I mostly prefer to raw dog to avoid having glue flaking off the bottom surface of making it sticky. I've only recently started printing with ASA, on an unenclosed MK4S at that. I printed 5 sets of Filamentalist with Polymaker ASA. First print had adhesion issues on the Prusa satin bed. Added Bed Weld and had some corners lift, but still finished the print. Best success was to print 1-2 layers of PETG, then switch to ASA. Polymaker Pop Pink ASA closely matched the Overture Magenta PETG I already had on hand, and i can't easily tell they were printed with two materials.
Suggestion for glue stick scars, I use the scrapper (plastic or metal, use the scrapper at the lowest angle possible so it doesn't bite the texture) and scrape the glue on the plate , that removes almosts all scars and evens the layer of glue stick. I've done this for the pas 2 years on the same PEI texture plate with little to no premature wear on the plate. Also, glue stick doesn't help the first layer adhesion for PETG, but helps release the print without damaging the PEI underneath, as i've see PEI peel of the plate with PETG.
You are very brave taking this on. Thanks and well done. I found I need Bambu Lab glue stick to help my PETG release from my smooth and textured PEI plates. Otherwise it sticks too well and I might damage the plates removing it. The stick is best used with a 70% isopropyl alcohol spray. Apply the stick sparingly and spray then wipe with a tissue. This makes a minimal uniform layer of glue stick on the plate.
At the moment of writing this comment, I don't know if you already pointed out, but there are 2 kinds of glue sticks, PVP and PVA, for me PVP has made wonders with almost any product, if the material sticks too much, it helps to release the print, if the material doesn't stick, it provides a lot of grip
Personally I have used Aquanet hairspray on glass since my first 3d printer the Robo3d R1. Which shows how long I have been printing. The company that built that printer was instermental in making consumer 3d printing a reality with their help, documentation, support etc. They created a ton of documentation that really made 3d printing understandable to the masses. The hairspray is super cheap, and on glass is super easy and steong enough for just about everything I print. The nice thing is with a razor scraper and mild soap or windex it comes off super easy and makes for a super clean glass build plate with minimum effort. Is it the best? Probably not, but it takes 1 second to spray and its ready to print as soon as the bed heats up. I rarely have adhestion issues with it. I just find the application so fast and easy I find it hard to do anything else. But nice to see the findings of the video.
I use one build plate for one type of material. I found out, that printing for example PETG after PLA may cause problems. Looks like the microscopic parts left on the build plate that are not compatible in adhesion inflicts each other. So - one buildplate per material + 3D lack ist what I do since..... long, and nearly never have problems.
Same. I wrote the material on the build plate with a permanent marker and use it almost exclusively. PLA on smooth PEI. PETG, ASA, Nylon, PC on Satin sheet where I use one side for PETG and the other for the rest. TPU on textured sheet. I don't use any other adhesive.
I chose to use the Creality K2 Plus build plate because I don't have a textured one for the XL, and I surveyed you guys, and most of you use textured PEI, so I wanted the results to be super relevant to all of you.
I’m disappointed that you couldn’t get the Vision Miner bed adhesive. I use it and am amazed. Absolutely no adhesion fails and perfect release with the clingy filaments. I get dozens of prints of PLA and PETG between application. I use mostly Bambu smooth and textured PEI plates.
You know you can wash glue stick off with lukewarn water and dish detergent, right? Same method to clean the build plate. Never had permanent glue stick staying on the print. The glue stick is also good to avoid damaging build plate as a release agent (for example, TPU in PEI, its function is not to stick, but to release)
The print samples near the edges of the build plate were at an automatic disadvantage due to the inherent uneven heating across the build plate. The temperature drops off - sometimes quickly - as you approach the outer perimeter of the heat bed which will lower adhesion.
I just used TPU on my Bamboo Labs X1Carbon with out any glue stick. The door was closed. TPU was a selection on the screen. The print stayed on the bed throughout the printing. The print came off with ease.
I accidentally used Magigoo PA when printing ASA-CF. This was on Bambu high temp plate. The part did not come off to the extent that the sheet was pulled off the plate. 🙈
Would be nice to do a follow up video where you also allow the bed to cool down and release. Like we know PETG sticks too well to some surfaces and the glue stick is often used as a release agent.
A Grade "C" from Igor is the same as A+ from common folks (but his comments were completely valid). Igor certainly knows his stuff when it comes to testing procedures and scientific methods. I will probably never get around to do it, but it could be fun to do the same testing here at home. But. I would make some changes to the testing methodology like: 1) Make a jig for the pulling, to ensure that each pull is done in the same direction and that the build plat don't flex underneath from the forces applied. 2) Use a tool (nut & bolt with a hook) to apply the pull force in an even and structured manner (maybe add a spring too). This is not meant as criticism for the work done here - it is very informative, interesting and useful - its merely "lessons learned" kind of thing.
I’m sorry, but I’m noticing a trend: Your videos have a lot of flawed tests in them. Just a little more attention to detail, maybe a consult here or there, could make your videos much much more useful. You have great ideas that will help a lot of people, but when you do half measures you can count on someone taking your idea and doing a full measure. If a test fails, fix it. It a test is flawed, fix it. If a test is inconclusive, scrap it. If you’re biased, make it a blind study (have someone else apply the goo).
Yeah, that's all very fair feedback. But to be honest, my conclusion is just that I should "stay in my lane" of projects, cool 3d prints, and printer builds. I've been pretty unfulfilled the last few weeks working on the last 2 videos... they aren't fun for me, and I think that's why I cut corners. Well... I cut corners on projects, too. But not as much. Anyways, I'm leaving the testing to other great UA-camrs who do a much better job
@@thenextlayer I can't speak for everyone, but I want to see you having fun more than I want to see this stuff. I absolutely DO NOT want to see you burnt out! Thanks for the honest reply!
Been using magigoo regular, seems like for my needs its working well. my fav part is how little mess it makes vs standard glue stick. looks like once it runs out ill have to check out some of the other offerings! I use it on my textured pei for more of a release agent (since i print only petg and tpu, and some other materials on) and on my wham bam pex for pla, which has made pex my favorite plate again. gotta try one of these supertak or cryogrip build plates in the future
data skew happens. that's a quirk of life in the real world, where things can & often do go wrong or simply refuse to go according to plan. 😋 i'd be interested in a followup video, assuming you have enough build plates to avoid cross-contamination, showing the relative strengths & weaknesses of the most popular spray adhesives too, but i do understand your frustration with the tedium & wanting rather to leave the testing to others. thanks for the info & helping me save money on trial & error for lack of a proper testing environment! 😊
Interesting results... I was struggling with getting Polymaker-ABS to stick with magicgoo but it worked perfectly with simple hairspray so I was definitely not expecting that good adhesion-results for ABS 🤔
Hey man, super nice job! I love your videos, and i love that you're starting to dwell in the world of the scientific method. It seems tho that you could use a second or even third pair of hands there to help you do the measurements and the more dirty work like babysitting a printer or putting on different glue. Im sure that there are a lot of people like me in Israel who would love to come in and volunteer in helping in your experiments. So if you need someone to come and help you just for the fun of it and the experience, we would love to help. Ty again to being a heck of a rule module 💪.
I had not really think about it before experiencing it myself: My Part to PEI adhesion has overcome my printsheet`s magnetic force on larger 300mm+ corner to corner prints Looking for a cheap/approachable solution to solve that
Compare with G10 / FR4, some inexperienced makers get afraid their print will not come off. But you need to clean it at least after 10 or 20 prints. I used to do glue stick or blue tape. Biggest problem is power outages, bed cools, print comes loose.
Wow ! I have only been printing for 5months and have only used 2 products. My textured plate plus my smooth plate plus my cryoplate have been cleaned with dish soap each day. I have found 3D LAC spray to be easy to use and ideal if you have lots of small pieces on same plate or thin layers at edge of bigger objects avoiding detachment during printing. I have used Bambu stick but didn’t like the application.
I stop using adhesives for 3D printing 3 years ago. I print on a plastification PET film adhered to my bed plate. It stiks when hot and let go when cold. Works for PLA, ABS and PETG.
ABS (from TM3dfilament) is my daily driver and I settled on 3Dlac as the best one. Even on my RatRig 500 a full build plate will stick without any issue. Up to 10 prints will easily stick. I did notice however that the application method matters: Clean the build plate with window cleaner (Glassex) and wipe with a paper towel followed by a wet paper towel to take the last bit of soap away. Your method of really washing the plate is even better. Then apply to a slightly warmed build plate (30 to 40 °C), and let it dry for 3 to 5 min before heating to 110 °C and printing. 3Dlac however does not work well (enough) for larger Nylon and PC parts. Here the specific Magicgoo works best for me (I have not tested the generic Magicgoo). However even with the specific magicgoo parts larger than 300 mm will still come loose. For those I need carbon filled PC or Nylon to aleviate the warping. (actually PC does not come loose it pulls the buildplate from its magnet). PETG needs a reduction of stickyness as it sticks so well it damages the buildplate. So after cleaning the build plate with window cleaner (Gassex) I leave some soap on the plate to control the stickyness.
Great video, thanks for sharing all the data. I’m definitely part of the Dawn dish soap, hot water, and a scrub brush crowd (and yes, Dawn is the best brand for the job, I have tried others and they don’t work as well). But I attribute my results to four major things. The Sovol PEI buildplate (used on my Ender 3s and Sunlu S8 Pro), cleaning my buildplates about once a month with Dawn dish soap, MRiscoC’s Professional Firmware (which I like so much I upgraded my Sunlu S8 Pro so I could install it), and running a 9 x 9 mesh at the beginning of every print (which only adds three minutes to the print time). But, I also print almost exclusively with CC3D’s PLA MAX filament. So while this works for me, people should find out what works best for them. Another thing I have found that helps reduce failed print due to adhesion, print your parts “sequentially” instead of “all at once” or “by layer”. I never lose a whole plate of parts any more because of a problem somewhere in the middle of the print. At most I lose only one or two of the parts. I have to admit, I haven’t missed using glue stick or hairspray on bit! It really is nice to be able to hit print and walk away.
Before the textured PEI plates came out I used purple gluestick for every print. At that point in time i only printed PLA, PETG, and TPU. Purple gluestick helped PLA stick much better. For PETG it did a good job keeping the first layer consistent but not to good as it can be hard to get prints off the bed. I don't want something to stick to much. Some of those actually make it to hard to get off. If I need to use something I'll go with a thin layer of purple gluestick.
I just started using generic glue stick because my flsun t1pro printer came with one. Its been a game changer. Before i couldnt get consistent bed adhesion unless i used rafts. That being said i also have some purple glue sticks but was hesitant to try it because i assumed it was going to be messier than generic since it feels softer. After seeing your test, Im definitely going to give it a shot. Im also going to try not cleaning snd reapplying every print. It is a pain. I only use highspeed PLA btw.
I dont use glue stick so much for adhesion. I only print petg pretty much and i learned early on how well it sticks so i use glue stick so i dont have to fight my prints to remove them from the print bed.
PETG sticks to the buildplate like nothing else in my cases. PETG sticks so well that it destroyed my buildplate when removing the items. I never had the need to use an adhesive for PETG, but i do use it, as a release agent.
I just (re)discovered hair spray. My Sovol PEI sheets are starting to exhibit their age and abuse and printing success has been a 2D20 roll with 42+ required to succeed for my level 1 printing guardian. It was so bad 3 days ago that my SV06 Plus almost found out what my backyard's frozen surface felt like from my upstairs office window ... I'd been using cleaning with hot water and Dawn as well as an alcohol wipe down. Then, I shifted to glue stick. Finally, after that once-again failure, I started scanning through various 3D reddit threads and found an old, old thread about adhesion on a FlashForge Inventor where they were weighing painters tape, Kapton tape, and Hairspray. On a hunch, I had my wife pick me up some hairspray from the local grocery store and gave it a try. The SV06 Plus and SV07 Plus have now both been running with no failures for over 3 days thanks to a light spritz from a $4 can of hairspray.
When I got started in 3D printing, (and mind you, you're one of the reasons that I got into the hobby, so big shout out/thank you for the introduction into such a wonderful world), I used to use dish soap and water. But I was also mostly printing PLA. I then delved into PETG but ruined a PEI bed, so I started looking into prevention and got into hair spray. It worked really well, but I didn't like that after a while, I started finding it on all the things near the printer. I guess the particles were making their way onto nearby objects and most things felt almost sticky. At this point I also attempted my first print in ABS, and hair spray was not enough. So, I switched to glue stick. It was great! It worked with PLA, PETG, and ABS! BUT... I always needed to clean my prints after wards. So that was kinda annoying. Not to mention how ugly it made pictures of my 3D printer look because the print plate was all lathered up in glue stick. It just makes it seem like you're neglecting the printer. After a while, I found one of your videos talking about Magigoo, and I really liked the idea, but I didn't like that it was filament specific, since I have a tendency to switch between filaments. Specially now-a-days that I'm printing in all kinds of materials. PLA and PETG are still my go to, but from time to time I will use ABS, ASA, TPU, PC, and Nylon. Heck, just yesterday I ordered a roll of PPA-CF from Bambu Lab, so I will be trying that out soon! And I don't want to have to clean my print plate every time I use a different filament. About two months ago, I found the Nano Polymer Adhesive from Vision Miner and it feels like it's the perfect solution. It's easy to apply. It comes in liquid form which means you smear it rather than spray it, so it won't get on other objects. It goes on clean, and even after having some prints, it still looks great, unlike glue stick. And the fact that it apparently works with just about every filament under the sun (except PP), it is my go to bed adhesion product. Oh, and while the first you prints after a fresh coat do seem to get some to adhere to the bottom of the print, it washes off with just water, and is easier to clean off than glue stick. A single wipe with a water-dampened towel takes care of it.
I was hoping I could get some advice, Im looking at possibly upgrading printers at some stage this year, and since I am from South Africa, the Bambu Lab printers here are really expensive. I am considering going for a Creality K1C which costs the equivalent of $585 over here, meanwhile, the Bambu P1P costs the equivalent of $883, I am a student and this is likely to be a 21st gift, so I don't have the money to just afford the P1P. What I am ultimately asking is, will the P1P be so much better that it would make sense to save and wait to be able to afford it over the K1C? Thanks for listening and for the help.
Would have loved to see hairspray. I expected to since it was mentioned in the comments at the beginning of the video. I mostly use a bare plate cleaned with alcohol. If I have a bed adhesion issue hairspray has been my go to.
Very nice video! Too bad you are not willing to continue that kind of content but I get it when you say it is difficult and time-consuming. I would have loved to see a round 2 with the one from Vision Miner! (PS : PCTG lover here, I think you're really going to like it!)
maybe when you were doing the test pulls if you had something that went around the model and applied downforce while pulling up might not have effected models around it as much? I know you put a lot of time into making these video's and we can all learn from them thanks for all your hard work.
Depends on build plates, but good ol classic white (not that funky purple until dry stuff) gluestick has generally preformed the best overall for me for the past decade.
I've gone over to hair spray, I clean my glass bed properly, I then take it outside, put it on a table with a roll of masking tape holding the glass bed above the table. I then spray an even thin layer give it about 30sec then spray over a thicker layer, I leave it in the sun to dry for about 4 hours. I've done 15 prints on that same layer of hair spary, I leave the bed to cool naturally and the print lifts of. I print pet and petg...
As someone who doesn't, currently, have a climate controlled room for their printers I would be interested in seeing a part 'whatever' on how the room temperature affects the grippiness of the different glues. Temps have gotten down to about -7°C for an idea. I've been running a small heater about 30 cm from my printers (a1 combo and kobra 2 max) to help with adhesion as much as possible.
Glue stick washes off with luke warm water very quickly if you agitate it. Takes only a few seconds. Put the part to dry on a towel. No sticky residue.
I used a mirror bed with my ender 3 pro and needed no adhesive supplement. Just washed with soap and water. As soon as the bed cooled it released fine.
Hello Jonathan, I heard in on of your other videos (the one about 3D printed shoes) that there are a few filament extruders companies that are local to Tel Aviv. Can you tell me which ones? I prefer to buy my filament in person and not the paying and waiting for shipping, which, as you know, gets delivered by our post office on the worse days and times.
I have had good results with the Bambu liquid glue, surprised to not see it tested. Recently switched to the BQ build plates and pretty much never use glue anymore.
I put gorilla glue stick on the bed as a release agent and used it with pla on glass with my old printer because no matter what I did it wouldn't stick to the glass.
I've had a lot better luck just keeping the bed clean and using sprues with 10mm dots on sharp corners. A different take on mouse ears, but it works for me. I've used them with PETG and ABS on prints that warped without them. Now I just put them on any larger print that has a sharp corner. I don't like what most adhesives do to the first layer finish, and most of them won't come off the part without sanding. Some adhesives won't wash off the build plate once they've been heated up. I used to use hairspray as a release agent for PETG but found it easier to use a textured build plate.
Appreciate the work put in, but due to the failed prints skewing the results I can not use this video to make a decision. It does provide some input. It however has to many variables that are unanswered.
"Leaves this residue, which if you wet your finger, is sticky and disgusting..." I am reminded of the story when the man told his doctor that his arm hurts when he does a particular thing. And the doctor replied, "Well, don't do that then.." All you have to do is not wet you finger to avoid what you consider disgusting... ;-) And as others have pointed out, the residue washes off easily. So I think the moral of the story, if you already hate glue stick, you probably shouldn't use it. For everyone else, it's a pretty cost effective option. ;-)
Really wanted to see result of hairspray. I bought 3 cans of Aqua Net Extra Super Hold Hairspray in 2018 and using it ever since. I print PLA regularly with it and still on my first can! Adhere very strong and releases easily when bed get cold. I haven't come across anything cheaper or better in my 12 years of 3D printing.
I have found that the spray on 3D LAC is much better than glusticks, with gluestick you have to wash the bottom of the part as they are all gunky, with the 3D LAC you can rub the part with your thumb and it crumbles off. If the adhesion is stronger than the magnetic hold this will weaken the grip of other parts, and that did happen in this teat.
In my limited experience, nothing I have tried adheres ASA better than a two layer thick disc of PETG directly on the plate and a filament swap. Let it cool down fully and the PETG cradle will peel right off with a perfectly servicable surface finish 🙂
@@HolmgrenJensen I use the Vision Miner NanoPolymer Adhesive when printing with ASA and have absolutely zero issues with adhesion. I print all of my Bambu filament spools with ASA on a Bambu smooth PEI plate and they seriously grip the plate. Filament spools are a prime candidate to lift and I have no issues.
Thank You for the video. Something that I've run into is that there is disagreement on which products are "bed adhesion agents" and which products are "bed release agents". Or maybe there's no difference? Use hairspray as the example. The only use case I have for hairspray is as a release agent for TPU. TPU has held so well to my PEI bed plates that it's ripped chunks off of them, a little bit of hairspray and the TPU pieces come off very easily but held fine during the print process. However, the build plate then needs cleaned because hairspray has caused problems with PLA and PETG failing to adhere to the build plate. In the context of your video, specifically looking at PETG only, I'd call the Bambu, generic, and purple glue sticks and liquid glue as "release agents" because the bed adhesion was reduced below that of the untreated build plate. Then 3D print stick and 3DLac I'd call "adhesion agents" because the bed adhesion was stronger than an untreated build plate. Magigoo was a tie with the untreated build plate, so in the case of PETG on a textured PEI build plate it's neither. Maybe there are additional variables to take into account, such as build plate material and separately build plate texture. This video did a great job demonstrating the performance of these products with various filaments on a textured PEI build plate. What about a build plate that's smooth PEI or another material entirely? I am NOT telling you that you need to do any additional testing, but I WOULD watch that video. Rather, I'm only saying that I believe an accurate framing of the context of this testing is "The performance of various bed treatments, across a variety of filaments, when using a textured PEI coated build plate." None of the above should be taken as a detractor towards this video, it was enjoyable and the information greatly appreciated.
The PEI and polycarbonate surface build plates already have dual action in combination with most printing plastics. They allow the material to form a bit of a surface weld, not to strong, when hot, and the adhesion is released when cold. Release doesn't really work for TPU and PETG as you say, but it works for most other things. Similarly you want the same dual action for all the coatings that you choose to apply.
always use 3dlack spray and it does what it needs to do no hus no fuze just work love the stuff btw you can use the spray for nylon it just preforms a little less then the specialized version for nylon.
Thanks for watching. I'm not really happy with how this video turned out... and I'm sorry for not delivering better quality data and research. But not to worry... from now on, I'm sticking to projects, functional prints, 3D printing news, and builds. Love you guys ❤
You did more than enough! Thank you for this insight and the effort was very visible. I really enjoyed watching and it taught me what I've wondered for many years! We all love you ❤
I love it how your rigor is similar to mine. Starts off well, great idea and as things start to take a wrong turn you just continue anyway because you don't want to start over. And I completely understand that. I have my fair share of just improvising as I go along and maybe not enough to be an academic, but gets stuff done. So kudos for that
@@thenextlayer HA! Sticking to...
Brother you GOOD! You are my go to for my 3D print info. I BELIEVE you. 'Nuff said.
Do more tests. Get better. We are here for it.
"Who is the grippiest of them all" is a wild sentence out of context
I don’t get it.
@@thenextlayer that's good. You're not a degenerate like the rest of us 😅
I get it
Thought the same 🤣
@@thenextlayermaybe for the best
First rule : maintain and clean buildplates ! As CookieEliminator and you wisely said, a properly maintained and clean print surface tremendously helps.
As for adhesives, I mostly use them rather as "release" agents than anything else. PET/PETG/PCTG/Flex stick too well to build surfaces, hence that use. Same thing for TitanX and ApolloX from FormFutura, respectively ABS and ASA, which I print a lot : they stick too well, hence the use of adhesive as separating interface.
Which is best ? 3DLac works very well, same thing for Magigoo, same thing for FormFutura EasyFix series. VisionMiner's Nanopolymer also works very well. There is no "best" to me, at least according to my own mileage.
You should also try some different buildplates. I don't mean it as one company vs. another and while there's differences between manufacturers, I mean it more as the difference in texturing of the build plates.
The more you have surface area, the more you have grip and while the rough textured build plates seen to do the job, but the holographic "pretty" build plates are something else with that extremely small texturing.
This is a great example of why experimental science is hard. Being objective, having consistent experimental parameters, having a good experimental design are all difficult to accomplish. For me, a typical experiment would take between 3 to 6 months just to work out the methodology.
Yep, you're absolutely right. Glad I tried it out, but I think I'll go back to project videos and 3D printer builds ;)
@thenextlayer I really appreciate the tests actually. It's nice to see someone who has experience and opinions. Personally I'd rather see tests from someone who's able to talk about his testing limitations than somebody who thinks their test is perfect
Jonathan you are the most scientific un-scientific person...I love it...great video!
Ha, thanks. My curiosity definitely outpaces my scientific aptitude. Glad someone got entertainment value out of it.
The video was entertaining, informative and concluded with useful information on the products. There's no need to beat on yourself for the "weak science". Method accuracy paralysis has killed so many 3D printing channels already, so I'm glad to see you still grinding and providing honest effort.
Aqua Net Extra Super Hold Hairspray. Been using it for years. Much better than any glue sticks.
Yeah, I considered adding hairspray, but I was worried about it getting in other lanes and messing up my data. Lital did I know that 1 million other things were going to mess up my data
No kidding. Who'd have guessed that the saviour of 80s glam bands and beehive waitresses would also make the most versatile and affordable temporary print interface layer?
I experimented last week with glue Vs hairspray. Hairspray is easier to clean with iso propyl alcohol. Hairspray had better adhesion, for some reason my glue prints warped. Glue is not easy to apply in an even layer, also by pushing on the print bed to apply the glue I have to relevel, whereas with hairspray I do a couple of spray between prints, without cleaning and have reliable adhesion.
@inkavanderbijl7504 This, too, has been my experience. I have perfectly flat first layers and a quick rinse under warm water washes off any hair spray residue left on the part. Also keeps PETG from bonding TOO well with my PEI plates, assuring removal without damage to the plate.
@@SwervingLemon Same as me but I also give the plate a quick spray of alcohol and then dry it off.
Thanks for attempting this!
I have a X1C and a T1Pro, I primarily print PLA and PETG on textured PEI plates at "out of box" bed temps. With any combo of those, I haven't encountered adhesion problems such as plagued me with my MK3S+.
I >do< however use "glue stick". But primarily for easier release. I bought a package of cheap "Amazon basics" purple glue sticks. I clean my plates with dish soap, let them dry over night. I apply a thin amount of the stick in a back and forth motion, then I use a "blue shop towel" saturated with 99% IPA in a random circular motion to "flow" the glue and even it out. This works well for me, but I suppose what I should do is run some tests doing only half the plate, printing the same model on both sides and see if I'm REALLY getting any benefit from my effort.
WOW. No Vision Miner, we have a problem sir. Nano is King (Camp Nano).
Great Video otherwise.
I’ve heard that, and I emailed back-and-forth with them, but they were not able to ship to Israel. It’s a real bummer because that is one of the ones I was most excited to test.
It's amazing, I use it for everything and it only needs to be reapplied very infrequently. Works for literally all materials except PP, and that is easy enough to use packing tape for.
What they said. 10+ years 3D printing, it is absolutely the best adhesive I've used. Doesn't leave a residue, lasts for many prints, and Just Works.
I agree vision minor is the best
Vision minor is by far the best
I like that you made this video. People will give you crap about what could have been done better but they do that to Stefan and Igor too, you just can't please everyone, but this is a test I haven't seen anyone else do so leaving it to others didn't work.
Nano Polymer has been the cleanest and best for me so far.
That’s the Vision Miner Nano Polymer, right? I’ve been using it for like 2 years now and it’s honestly incredible. I run a small print garden and I really don’t worry about bed adhesion anymore.
My only complaint is the application process, but I recently printed a little TPU squeegee and it’s great for a nice, thick layer that doesn’t end up in the brush.
In my experience with printing many KG of ASA, magigoo PC is a must have. It will pull the build plate off the magnet before it detaches. I can't remove prints from the build plate until it's cooled to at least 60C or lower.
Is that with the generic magigoo? Or the PC/nylon version?
Yeah, that’s been my experience too, except I think I accidentally used the Piet version for this video and once I realized it was too far to turn back
Oh I have used the PLA/ABS etc version Magigoo with ASA😅😅 I also have PC version, didnt know I had to use it with ASA
Elmer's craft bond spray adhesive.... preheat bed to 50c spray a decent amount onto a paper towel, you dont want to have the paper towel stick it must be pretty soaked whipe down build plate once. This has worked super well for me realeses pretty easy and has insane longevity I have a pretty dusty room and work area and I haven't cleaned my bed in months.
interesting, but I agree, sticking to PEI plate and cleaning regularly is the way to go. I only use an adhesive alternative when using TPU
Thanks for all your hard work. It's always informative. For my money, a good quality hairspray has been all I ever needed. I only print in PLA and PETG. For PLA it's helps adhesion even on my textured PEI plate. For PETG, as you and others have noted, it sticks to every frigging thing. Thankfully, after the post-print cooling, I find the hairspray is a great release agent! So much so that PETG no longer leaves residue on the plate after printing. Hairspray in a big can is cheap, the can will last a long way, and the spray can is easy to master to get a consistent, even coating on the plate. Best of all, it washes away quite easily with some warm water and some elbow grease. Your Mileage May Vary, so use what information you have at your fingertips and make your own judgement on what works best for you.
6 parts water, 1 part PVA (white school glue) glue. Mix and shake and just paint it on the build plate. Better then anything i ever bought.
@@stevedegeorge726 👍 It always works.
Works for me. I only have to adjust the squish of the filament sometimes. Working on 25+ prints. I have not even cleaned the build plate yet. Parts stick till the plate cools. I print ABS only no fans in a tent.
I'd have to agree. I use the book binding PVA. Just make sure it's smooth before heating or you'll have a permanent bad time.
Interesting. Never seen this solution
@DanielSanPedro I used pure book binding PVA (essentially just acid free PVA), without mixing, and just smeared it into the engineering plate. I printed a part and adhesion was golden. However, the glue permanently embedded itself into the plate. I thought it would've smoothened out with the heat and drying but it didn't. But adhesion was never an issue again. I had to toss the plate though because it was no longer flat (thanks to the permanent globs).
After having issues a few months later on Golden PEI, I tried it again but thinned it with water and made sure it was extremely thin. Baked it in the printer until dry and now no more adhesion issues. It's great because now I can use cooling with pretty much any filament (minus PP and really wide pure PA, Kodak Brand).
Not sure if it's this specific brand of PVA or if any type works. I just bought it a few years ago to rebind an old Bible for my grandmother.
I'm glad to see someone else found this method too.
Great video Jonathan - lots of work and really appreciated you being very clear on your sponsorship of one of the products. This was lots of work - and while not perfect - it was informative and really liked you covered the residue portion of the use of adhesives. Its why i perfer the raw dog option, espectially the new Cryogrip build plate sheets.
In this modern age of various bed sheets (especially textured PEI), I find I only need glue stick for particularly sticky filaments like TPU, which tend to over-adhere. So, I am only rarely bothering with glue as a *removal* aid, not an adhesion aid. In this case, I'm using a basic PVA since it is super easy to remove with just water. Of course, if I were printing PC/Nylon, I might be more reliant on glues.
My conclusion is that *most* people won't need a fancy expensive adhesive if they are using a print bed suitable for the filament and most common filaments (PLA, PETG, ABS) aren't going to need it at all. 99% of people don't start out printing Nylon. Most don't even start out with ABS since PLA and PETG went mainstream.
For me, I just can;'t get the bamboo basic green to stick to the pei textured sheet no matter what i do, it just gets off. any other colour that arrived with the printer is fine. But overall, I just use the basic liquid glue because it's the easiest to get evenly spread out.
agreed, if I have adhesion issues on PEI i just wash it and maybe use a brim
Man i really feel like you were overly rushed to get this video out. Really like the concept of the video and would really like to see this revisited with other products and the bed heated to the proper temp for each material (glass transition temperature). But yeah its hard to take any chart results seriously when there was so many issues and errors with the process. As soon as you saw so many print fails you should have taken a step back and reapproached your testing.
It's true. I was rushing to meet deadlines and get the video out (and the one after that). Thorough science isn't my thing, to begin with, but also, it doesn't like to conform to a once-a-week UA-cam schedule..
@thenextlayer maybe split up series like this to one material test a week to keep the release schedule and tie everything together with a best all in one product video afterwards? Trying to cram everything into one video and dealing with failures like that seems super stressful.
I often use a generic white glue for woodworking called Mekol, which I believe is similar to Elmer's glue. This adhesive also helps prevent PETG from sticking too strongly to the PEI plate. I apply it with a spatula. Applying a thicker layer can be useful in emergencies when certain parts lose adhesion during printing.
First, great production quality as always. The topic is really important, and as I have just attempted and failed, due to adhesion issues, in my first ASA printing project, really timely (for me). I used a smooth PEI plate, cleaned and scrubbed with Dawn & hot water. After that failed, I cleaned and scrubbed it again, and applied Vision miner nano polymer adhesive. the print made it further but still came off the plate during printing causing spaghetti. This video / testing was clearly a lot of work... too much for 1 person probably, and honestly should have also included built plates as a variable, as already mentioned by others (even more work). Perhaps in the future you can revisit this topic and split up the work by working collaboratively with some of your youtube content peers.
Great efforts! When I was printing on a Glasplate I love to use 3Dlake with great success - changing to PEI (structured) I don’t need any extra material - lastly I tested PEA plate I needed an release material - everything sticked too well.
Printing by object can help tests like this. Makes it easier to cancel as needed and helps prevent one object from interfering with another.
Shabbat Shalom. When I was running my Ender-3 S1 I ended up getting Magigoo based on your suggestion and had some luck. At that time I was only printing PLA. Since switching to 2 AnyCubic machines I haven’t ever even needed it, rawdog PEI plates and no issues printing PLA or PETG.
i been using 3dlac for years now, one of the best i have used, both for how well it works espcialyl with abs, it last forever and how easy it is to wash off
The best bed adhesion is a plate that properly maintained. My 2yo PEI plate from Bambu still holds every filament perfectly without any additional glue.
THIS.
Always properly maintain things. This won't never be said too much.
Except nylon
Start with a freshly cleaned build plate, use magigoo when necessary. Got it!
Pretty much. Well summarized.
One thing I would be worried about is how ripping off the prints before the "self-release" properties of some of the materials may affect how much of the adhesive is pulled off for longevity testing. If there's a follow up, I'd like to see a comparison where prints are only pulled off of the hot bed during the first print of the model and last print of the model, with however many runs of the model you decide in between with "normal" removal with a cooled bed.
Also I'd like to see a comparison with Vision Miner's Nano Polymer Adhesive if you have access to it.
Good point. Didn’t even think of that
I use Nano Polymer all the time. Amazing stuff on pretty much any filament type.
Sometimes you can avoid using adhesives by experimenting with types of build plates and temperature. I had trouble with PC-CF on a satin sheet with the recommended 90°C bed temperature. It warped and fell of during printing. Same print, but with 130°C came out perfectly, even this is way beyond what is recommended on the spool.
Prusa has a nice table which bed is best suitable for each material. I stick to that and I avoid printing different materials on the same plate.
My PETG won't stick to the satin sheet anymore, if I print PLA on it. I have to thoroughly wash it with dish soap and alcohol to get PETG sticking again.
I appreciate the effort. Even if the data is spotty, it shows us a few things when we look at the whole data set. Personally, i'm more in the simple is better camp. Also cheaper is better. Thanks again for your efforts!
Aside from the glue stick that shipped with my MK3S, the only bed adhesion products I've used are blue painter's tape and Layerneer's Bed Weld. I mostly prefer to raw dog to avoid having glue flaking off the bottom surface of making it sticky. I've only recently started printing with ASA, on an unenclosed MK4S at that. I printed 5 sets of Filamentalist with Polymaker ASA. First print had adhesion issues on the Prusa satin bed. Added Bed Weld and had some corners lift, but still finished the print. Best success was to print 1-2 layers of PETG, then switch to ASA. Polymaker Pop Pink ASA closely matched the Overture Magenta PETG I already had on hand, and i can't easily tell they were printed with two materials.
Love the testing! I use clean powder coated PEI for everything but nylon, Ive had some success just using purple glue stick on glass for nylons
Suggestion for glue stick scars, I use the scrapper (plastic or metal, use the scrapper at the lowest angle possible so it doesn't bite the texture) and scrape the glue on the plate , that removes almosts all scars and evens the layer of glue stick. I've done this for the pas 2 years on the same PEI texture plate with little to no premature wear on the plate. Also, glue stick doesn't help the first layer adhesion for PETG, but helps release the print without damaging the PEI underneath, as i've see PEI peel of the plate with PETG.
You are very brave taking this on. Thanks and well done. I found I need Bambu Lab glue stick to help my PETG release from my smooth and textured PEI plates. Otherwise it sticks too well and I might damage the plates removing it. The stick is best used with a 70% isopropyl alcohol spray. Apply the stick sparingly and spray then wipe with a tissue. This makes a minimal uniform layer of glue stick on the plate.
At the moment of writing this comment, I don't know if you already pointed out, but there are 2 kinds of glue sticks, PVP and PVA, for me PVP has made wonders with almost any product, if the material sticks too much, it helps to release the print, if the material doesn't stick, it provides a lot of grip
Personally I have used Aquanet hairspray on glass since my first 3d printer the Robo3d R1. Which shows how long I have been printing. The company that built that printer was instermental in making consumer 3d printing a reality with their help, documentation, support etc. They created a ton of documentation that really made 3d printing understandable to the masses. The hairspray is super cheap, and on glass is super easy and steong enough for just about everything I print. The nice thing is with a razor scraper and mild soap or windex it comes off super easy and makes for a super clean glass build plate with minimum effort. Is it the best? Probably not, but it takes 1 second to spray and its ready to print as soon as the bed heats up. I rarely have adhestion issues with it. I just find the application so fast and easy I find it hard to do anything else. But nice to see the findings of the video.
I use one build plate for one type of material. I found out, that printing for example PETG after PLA may cause problems. Looks like the microscopic parts left on the build plate that are not compatible in adhesion inflicts each other. So - one buildplate per material + 3D lack ist what I do since..... long, and nearly never have problems.
Same. I wrote the material on the build plate with a permanent marker and use it almost exclusively. PLA on smooth PEI. PETG, ASA, Nylon, PC on Satin sheet where I use one side for PETG and the other for the rest. TPU on textured sheet. I don't use any other adhesive.
i've found that it's difficult to get consistent, even glue stick application on textured sheets.
What build plate are you using on the XL?
I chose to use the Creality K2 Plus build plate because I don't have a textured one for the XL, and I surveyed you guys, and most of you use textured PEI, so I wanted the results to be super relevant to all of you.
I’m disappointed that you couldn’t get the Vision Miner bed adhesive. I use it and am amazed. Absolutely no adhesion fails and perfect release with the clingy filaments. I get dozens of prints of PLA and PETG between application. I use mostly Bambu smooth and textured PEI plates.
Yeah, me too :(
You know you can wash glue stick off with lukewarn water and dish detergent, right? Same method to clean the build plate. Never had permanent glue stick staying on the print.
The glue stick is also good to avoid damaging build plate as a release agent (for example, TPU in PEI, its function is not to stick, but to release)
I uses the cheap strong hair spry from LIDL and ABS. All most impossible to get off, unless I lad it cool down. Then it self release. I print on glass
The Bambu liquid glue would have been better than the glue stick. Vision miner is the goat.
The print samples near the edges of the build plate were at an automatic disadvantage due to the inherent uneven heating across the build plate. The temperature drops off - sometimes quickly - as you approach the outer perimeter of the heat bed which will lower adhesion.
The Prusa XL uses 16 independent heaters for exactly this reason. It doesn’t suffer from that problem
@@thenextlayer Not aware of this tech but would like to see verificaiton with a IR temp gun or half fancy sensors.
Vision Miner would be amazing for you, if they shipped outside the US.
I just used TPU on my Bamboo Labs X1Carbon with out any glue stick. The door was closed. TPU was a selection on the screen. The print stayed on the bed throughout the printing. The print came off with ease.
I accidentally used Magigoo PA when printing ASA-CF. This was on Bambu high temp plate. The part did not come off to the extent that the sheet was pulled off the plate. 🙈
Would be nice to do a follow up video where you also allow the bed to cool down and release. Like we know PETG sticks too well to some surfaces and the glue stick is often used as a release agent.
A Grade "C" from Igor is the same as A+ from common folks (but his comments were completely valid).
Igor certainly knows his stuff when it comes to testing procedures and scientific methods.
I will probably never get around to do it, but it could be fun to do the same testing here at home.
But. I would make some changes to the testing methodology like:
1) Make a jig for the pulling, to ensure that each pull is done in the same direction and that the build plat don't flex underneath from the forces applied.
2) Use a tool (nut & bolt with a hook) to apply the pull force in an even and structured manner (maybe add a spring too).
This is not meant as criticism for the work done here - it is very informative, interesting and useful - its merely "lessons learned" kind of thing.
I’m sorry, but I’m noticing a trend: Your videos have a lot of flawed tests in them. Just a little more attention to detail, maybe a consult here or there, could make your videos much much more useful.
You have great ideas that will help a lot of people, but when you do half measures you can count on someone taking your idea and doing a full measure.
If a test fails, fix it. It a test is flawed, fix it. If a test is inconclusive, scrap it. If you’re biased, make it a blind study (have someone else apply the goo).
Yeah, that's all very fair feedback. But to be honest, my conclusion is just that I should "stay in my lane" of projects, cool 3d prints, and printer builds. I've been pretty unfulfilled the last few weeks working on the last 2 videos... they aren't fun for me, and I think that's why I cut corners. Well... I cut corners on projects, too. But not as much. Anyways, I'm leaving the testing to other great UA-camrs who do a much better job
@@thenextlayer I can't speak for everyone, but I want to see you having fun more than I want to see this stuff. I absolutely DO NOT want to see you burnt out!
Thanks for the honest reply!
Been using magigoo regular, seems like for my needs its working well. my fav part is how little mess it makes vs standard glue stick. looks like once it runs out ill have to check out some of the other offerings! I use it on my textured pei for more of a release agent (since i print only petg and tpu, and some other materials on) and on my wham bam pex for pla, which has made pex my favorite plate again. gotta try one of these supertak or cryogrip build plates in the future
TNL: Stop Using Glue Stick for 3D Printer Bed Adhesion!
My barely surviving CR-10V3: Gold my warped bed, worn nuts, and wobbly wheels.
What temperature do you recommend for pets and pla?
data skew happens. that's a quirk of life in the real world, where things can & often do go wrong or simply refuse to go according to plan. 😋 i'd be interested in a followup video, assuming you have enough build plates to avoid cross-contamination, showing the relative strengths & weaknesses of the most popular spray adhesives too, but i do understand your frustration with the tedium & wanting rather to leave the testing to others. thanks for the info & helping me save money on trial & error for lack of a proper testing environment! 😊
Interesting results... I was struggling with getting Polymaker-ABS to stick with magicgoo but it worked perfectly with simple hairspray so I was definitely not expecting that good adhesion-results for ABS 🤔
The single best build surface I've used is regular blue tape. I wish it lasted longer though.
Not good for high temp filament. The glue boils.
Still a great choice for pla.
Hey man, super nice job! I love your videos, and i love that you're starting to dwell in the world of the scientific method. It seems tho that you could use a second or even third pair of hands there to help you do the measurements and the more dirty work like babysitting a printer or putting on different glue. Im sure that there are a lot of people like me in Israel who would love to come in and volunteer in helping in your experiments. So if you need someone to come and help you just for the fun of it and the experience, we would love to help.
Ty again to being a heck of a rule module 💪.
Thanks, I always love company and help at the shop. Drop me a message on discord
I had not really think about it before experiencing it myself: My Part to PEI adhesion has overcome my printsheet`s magnetic force on larger 300mm+ corner to corner prints
Looking for a cheap/approachable solution to solve that
When printing ASA at 100C on let's say a Sovol SV08
Compare with G10 / FR4, some inexperienced makers get afraid their print will not come off. But you need to clean it at least after 10 or 20 prints. I used to do glue stick or blue tape. Biggest problem is power outages, bed cools, print comes loose.
Wow ! I have only been printing for 5months and have only used 2 products. My textured plate plus my smooth plate plus my
cryoplate have been cleaned with dish soap each day. I have found 3D LAC spray to be easy to use and ideal if you have lots of small pieces on same plate or thin layers at edge of bigger objects avoiding detachment during printing. I have used Bambu stick but didn’t like the application.
I stop using adhesives for 3D printing 3 years ago. I print on a plastification PET film adhered to my bed plate. It stiks when hot and let go when cold. Works for PLA, ABS and PETG.
"cant we alll just get along" brought me back to '92
ABS (from TM3dfilament) is my daily driver and I settled on 3Dlac as the best one. Even on my RatRig 500 a full build plate will stick without any issue. Up to 10 prints will easily stick.
I did notice however that the application method matters: Clean the build plate with window cleaner (Glassex) and wipe with a paper towel followed by a wet paper towel to take the last bit of soap away. Your method of really washing the plate is even better. Then apply to a slightly warmed build plate (30 to 40 °C), and let it dry for 3 to 5 min before heating to 110 °C and printing.
3Dlac however does not work well (enough) for larger Nylon and PC parts. Here the specific Magicgoo works best for me (I have not tested the generic Magicgoo). However even with the specific magicgoo parts larger than 300 mm will still come loose. For those I need carbon filled PC or Nylon to aleviate the warping. (actually PC does not come loose it pulls the buildplate from its magnet).
PETG needs a reduction of stickyness as it sticks so well it damages the buildplate. So after cleaning the build plate with window cleaner (Gassex) I leave some soap on the plate to control the stickyness.
Hey, really linking the content.
Suggestion for video:
Filament dryer / dry box roundup testing
Fits the theme
I only print PA and PETG and have ben using generic dollar store glue stick with no issues for about 2 years now on my glass build plate.
Great video, thanks for sharing all the data. I’m definitely part of the Dawn dish soap, hot water, and a scrub brush crowd (and yes, Dawn is the best brand for the job, I have tried others and they don’t work as well). But I attribute my results to four major things. The Sovol PEI buildplate (used on my Ender 3s and Sunlu S8 Pro), cleaning my buildplates about once a month with Dawn dish soap, MRiscoC’s Professional Firmware (which I like so much I upgraded my Sunlu S8 Pro so I could install it), and running a 9 x 9 mesh at the beginning of every print (which only adds three minutes to the print time). But, I also print almost exclusively with CC3D’s PLA MAX filament. So while this works for me, people should find out what works best for them. Another thing I have found that helps reduce failed print due to adhesion, print your parts “sequentially” instead of “all at once” or “by layer”. I never lose a whole plate of parts any more because of a problem somewhere in the middle of the print. At most I lose only one or two of the parts. I have to admit, I haven’t missed using glue stick or hairspray on bit! It really is nice to be able to hit print and walk away.
Thanks for sharing, and yeah brand of dish soap really does make a difference
Before the textured PEI plates came out I used purple gluestick for every print. At that point in time i only printed PLA, PETG, and TPU. Purple gluestick helped PLA stick much better. For PETG it did a good job keeping the first layer consistent but not to good as it can be hard to get prints off the bed. I don't want something to stick to much. Some of those actually make it to hard to get off. If I need to use something I'll go with a thin layer of purple gluestick.
What, no hairspray??? lol Purple Glue stick rules in my book! haha Great video.
I just started using generic glue stick because my flsun t1pro printer came with one. Its been a game changer. Before i couldnt get consistent bed adhesion unless i used rafts.
That being said i also have some purple glue sticks but was hesitant to try it because i assumed it was going to be messier than generic since it feels softer. After seeing your test, Im definitely going to give it a shot. Im also going to try not cleaning snd reapplying every print. It is a pain.
I only use highspeed PLA btw.
I dont use glue stick so much for adhesion. I only print petg pretty much and i learned early on how well it sticks so i use glue stick so i dont have to fight my prints to remove them from the print bed.
I just learned today the hard way that magigoo/ glue can scar prints.
I'm loving this hobby. But there is a ton to it
PETG sticks to the buildplate like nothing else in my cases. PETG sticks so well that it destroyed my buildplate when removing the items. I never had the need to use an adhesive for PETG, but i do use it, as a release agent.
I just (re)discovered hair spray. My Sovol PEI sheets are starting to exhibit their age and abuse and printing success has been a 2D20 roll with 42+ required to succeed for my level 1 printing guardian. It was so bad 3 days ago that my SV06 Plus almost found out what my backyard's frozen surface felt like from my upstairs office window ... I'd been using cleaning with hot water and Dawn as well as an alcohol wipe down. Then, I shifted to glue stick. Finally, after that once-again failure, I started scanning through various 3D reddit threads and found an old, old thread about adhesion on a FlashForge Inventor where they were weighing painters tape, Kapton tape, and Hairspray. On a hunch, I had my wife pick me up some hairspray from the local grocery store and gave it a try. The SV06 Plus and SV07 Plus have now both been running with no failures for over 3 days thanks to a light spritz from a $4 can of hairspray.
I use a spray since it's so simple to spread and seems to work well enough for me
When I got started in 3D printing, (and mind you, you're one of the reasons that I got into the hobby, so big shout out/thank you for the introduction into such a wonderful world), I used to use dish soap and water. But I was also mostly printing PLA. I then delved into PETG but ruined a PEI bed, so I started looking into prevention and got into hair spray. It worked really well, but I didn't like that after a while, I started finding it on all the things near the printer. I guess the particles were making their way onto nearby objects and most things felt almost sticky. At this point I also attempted my first print in ABS, and hair spray was not enough. So, I switched to glue stick. It was great! It worked with PLA, PETG, and ABS! BUT... I always needed to clean my prints after wards. So that was kinda annoying. Not to mention how ugly it made pictures of my 3D printer look because the print plate was all lathered up in glue stick. It just makes it seem like you're neglecting the printer. After a while, I found one of your videos talking about Magigoo, and I really liked the idea, but I didn't like that it was filament specific, since I have a tendency to switch between filaments. Specially now-a-days that I'm printing in all kinds of materials. PLA and PETG are still my go to, but from time to time I will use ABS, ASA, TPU, PC, and Nylon. Heck, just yesterday I ordered a roll of PPA-CF from Bambu Lab, so I will be trying that out soon! And I don't want to have to clean my print plate every time I use a different filament. About two months ago, I found the Nano Polymer Adhesive from Vision Miner and it feels like it's the perfect solution. It's easy to apply. It comes in liquid form which means you smear it rather than spray it, so it won't get on other objects. It goes on clean, and even after having some prints, it still looks great, unlike glue stick. And the fact that it apparently works with just about every filament under the sun (except PP), it is my go to bed adhesion product. Oh, and while the first you prints after a fresh coat do seem to get some to adhere to the bottom of the print, it washes off with just water, and is easier to clean off than glue stick. A single wipe with a water-dampened towel takes care of it.
Thanks for sharing and for the very kind words. That’s what I do this for! (And the cool toys obviously)
I was hoping I could get some advice, Im looking at possibly upgrading printers at some stage this year, and since I am from South Africa, the Bambu Lab printers here are really expensive.
I am considering going for a Creality K1C which costs the equivalent of $585 over here, meanwhile, the Bambu P1P costs the equivalent of $883, I am a student and this is likely to be a 21st gift, so I don't have the money to just afford the P1P.
What I am ultimately asking is, will the P1P be so much better that it would make sense to save and wait to be able to afford it over the K1C? Thanks for listening and for the help.
How does the Bambu lab liquid glue compare to the magigoo liquid glue?
Would have loved to see hairspray. I expected to since it was mentioned in the comments at the beginning of the video.
I mostly use a bare plate cleaned with alcohol. If I have a bed adhesion issue hairspray has been my go to.
Very nice video! Too bad you are not willing to continue that kind of content but I get it when you say it is difficult and time-consuming. I would have loved to see a round 2 with the one from Vision Miner! (PS : PCTG lover here, I think you're really going to like it!)
maybe when you were doing the test pulls if you had something that went around the model and applied downforce while pulling up might not have effected models around it as much? I know you put a lot of time into making these video's and we can all learn from them thanks for all your hard work.
Yeah, that's one of the many things I would change if I had to do it over again.
Depends on build plates, but good ol classic white (not that funky purple until dry stuff) gluestick has generally preformed the best overall for me for the past decade.
I've gone over to hair spray, I clean my glass bed properly, I then take it outside, put it on a table with a roll of masking tape holding the glass bed above the table.
I then spray an even thin layer give it about 30sec then spray over a thicker layer, I leave it in the sun to dry for about 4 hours.
I've done 15 prints on that same layer of hair spary, I leave the bed to cool naturally and the print lifts of. I print pet and petg...
Nice, thanks for sharing.
As someone who doesn't, currently, have a climate controlled room for their printers I would be interested in seeing a part 'whatever' on how the room temperature affects the grippiness of the different glues. Temps have gotten down to about -7°C for an idea.
I've been running a small heater about 30 cm from my printers (a1 combo and kobra 2 max) to help with adhesion as much as possible.
Glue stick washes off with luke warm water very quickly if you agitate it. Takes only a few seconds. Put the part to dry on a towel. No sticky residue.
I use purple glue stick to release prints that stick too well. Apparently it helps help some prints sticking too
I used a mirror bed with my ender 3 pro and needed no adhesive supplement. Just washed with soap and water. As soon as the bed cooled it released fine.
When I saw the thumbnail I thought this was a video about glue to keep your fitted sheets from slipping off.
Hello Jonathan, I heard in on of your other videos (the one about 3D printed shoes) that there are a few filament extruders companies that are local to Tel Aviv. Can you tell me which ones? I prefer to buy my filament in person and not the paying and waiting for shipping, which, as you know, gets delivered by our post office on the worse days and times.
I have had good results with the Bambu liquid glue, surprised to not see it tested. Recently switched to the BQ build plates and pretty much never use glue anymore.
Id like to know the results in regard to TPU and its notoriety to sticking TOO well. What aids in removal?
Unheated bed
@@riba2233oh? Will that help?
I put gorilla glue stick on the bed as a release agent and used it with pla on glass with my old printer because no matter what I did it wouldn't stick to the glass.
I've had a lot better luck just keeping the bed clean and using sprues with 10mm dots on sharp corners. A different take on mouse ears, but it works for me. I've used them with PETG and ABS on prints that warped without them. Now I just put them on any larger print that has a sharp corner. I don't like what most adhesives do to the first layer finish, and most of them won't come off the part without sanding. Some adhesives won't wash off the build plate once they've been heated up. I used to use hairspray as a release agent for PETG but found it easier to use a textured build plate.
Appreciate the work put in, but due to the failed prints skewing the results I can not use this video to make a decision. It does provide some input. It however has to many variables that are unanswered.
"Leaves this residue, which if you wet your finger, is sticky and disgusting..."
I am reminded of the story when the man told his doctor that his arm hurts when he does a particular thing. And the doctor replied, "Well, don't do that then.."
All you have to do is not wet you finger to avoid what you consider disgusting... ;-)
And as others have pointed out, the residue washes off easily.
So I think the moral of the story, if you already hate glue stick, you probably shouldn't use it.
For everyone else, it's a pretty cost effective option. ;-)
Really wanted to see result of hairspray. I bought 3 cans of Aqua Net Extra Super Hold Hairspray in 2018 and using it ever since. I print PLA regularly with it and still on my first can! Adhere very strong and releases easily when bed get cold. I haven't come across anything cheaper or better in my 12 years of 3D printing.
I'd be curious how well it works with Nylon. The kind I bought barely held on to ASA...
Suave Max hold hairspray works the best. And as a bonus it smells like roses so when the plate heats up your house smells good
I have found that the spray on 3D LAC is much better than glusticks, with gluestick you have to wash the bottom of the part as they are all gunky, with the 3D LAC you can rub the part with your thumb and it crumbles off.
If the adhesion is stronger than the magnetic hold this will weaken the grip of other parts, and that did happen in this teat.
In my limited experience, nothing I have tried adheres ASA better than a two layer thick disc of PETG directly on the plate and a filament swap.
Let it cool down fully and the PETG cradle will peel right off with a perfectly servicable surface finish 🙂
@@HolmgrenJensen I use the Vision Miner NanoPolymer Adhesive when printing with ASA and have absolutely zero issues with adhesion. I print all of my Bambu filament spools with ASA on a Bambu smooth PEI plate and they seriously grip the plate. Filament spools are a prime candidate to lift and I have no issues.
Thank You for the video.
Something that I've run into is that there is disagreement on which products are "bed adhesion agents" and which products are "bed release agents". Or maybe there's no difference?
Use hairspray as the example. The only use case I have for hairspray is as a release agent for TPU. TPU has held so well to my PEI bed plates that it's ripped chunks off of them, a little bit of hairspray and the TPU pieces come off very easily but held fine during the print process. However, the build plate then needs cleaned because hairspray has caused problems with PLA and PETG failing to adhere to the build plate.
In the context of your video, specifically looking at PETG only, I'd call the Bambu, generic, and purple glue sticks and liquid glue as "release agents" because the bed adhesion was reduced below that of the untreated build plate. Then 3D print stick and 3DLac I'd call "adhesion agents" because the bed adhesion was stronger than an untreated build plate. Magigoo was a tie with the untreated build plate, so in the case of PETG on a textured PEI build plate it's neither.
Maybe there are additional variables to take into account, such as build plate material and separately build plate texture.
This video did a great job demonstrating the performance of these products with various filaments on a textured PEI build plate. What about a build plate that's smooth PEI or another material entirely?
I am NOT telling you that you need to do any additional testing, but I WOULD watch that video.
Rather, I'm only saying that I believe an accurate framing of the context of this testing is "The performance of various bed treatments, across a variety of filaments, when using a textured PEI coated build plate."
None of the above should be taken as a detractor towards this video, it was enjoyable and the information greatly appreciated.
The PEI and polycarbonate surface build plates already have dual action in combination with most printing plastics. They allow the material to form a bit of a surface weld, not to strong, when hot, and the adhesion is released when cold. Release doesn't really work for TPU and PETG as you say, but it works for most other things.
Similarly you want the same dual action for all the coatings that you choose to apply.
always use 3dlack spray and it does what it needs to do no hus no fuze just work love the stuff btw you can use the spray for nylon it just preforms a little less then the specialized version for nylon.