List of the greenest cars when everything is counted in: 1st place: Hybrid 2nd place: Petrol/ diesel 3rd place: Electric Sadly, promoting electric cars does overall the biggest damage to the environment.
I feel like I've just watched the best 17 minute informercial for the petrol pump ever made. Even with the huge fuel prices, nothing would get me to buy an EV yet.
next mth - diesel and petrol manufacturing is back on the table (was never really off tnf) and is going nowhere ! the best outcome for all - EV is a lie, yes they have benefits but the reason to sell and buy is a lie - gvt haven't even started punishing ev owners yet, plenty to come i am sure
@@ogasi1798 You can talk if the cost of running an EV reaches the cost of an ICE car. People like you never seem to protest about the cost of petrol and the taxes imposed on it.
You will own nothing and you’ll be happy. And *we will* switch your power on and off. That’s where it’s going. Incredible that so many cannot see this.
They don't see it because they don't read the ridiculous garbage you obviously read. And by the way, how can the nation's economy function if nobody owns anything? Where would people work, if nobody owned a business? And randomly switching people's power off would become a total legal nightmare. Anyone who has a mains electricity supply pays a daily standing charge. What do you suppose would happen if people had their electricity supply randomly cut off, but were still charged the daily standing charge as if it wasn't?
The Govt force the use of electric cars when we haven't got the capacity to cope. Now it wants to decide if/when it can be charged. What an absolute joke
@@thisisnumber0 ICE isn't *banned* You will still be able to continue using the ICE car you have, until it becomes unviable. Even when there are no further examples of used ICE cars to buy, you *STILL* don't *have* to own an EV if you don't wish to. Hopefully that explains how it works........Most people seem to be able to grasp this.
So the government, or someone acting on their behalf, have the potential to turn down or OFF your electrical supply - glad we have trustworthy and moral leaders.
@@davidgranger3628 That is one of the reasons I have avoided a smart meter. One other is that I remember family rows caused by the spinning disc meters. I can see the repeat of the. ‘Your the one using most most electricity’ rows.
@@davecooper3238 me to ,we do have a device that shows use though so the fights continue ,i foresee your usage at tea time be far more expensive as they can pin down the time with ease on the 'smart' meter ,its smart for them ofcourse only switching everything you own off will save you money these smart meters will ensure you pay more not less .If they become mandatory s Faraday shield will soon turn them dum again! Theres already talk of chargers refusing to charge at certain times so perhaps a full charge impossible in the time allotted as they also will be 'reporting' what your up to ,bring on those spinning meters life was less regulated back then
Feels like to me this has not been thought out properly so no charges at peak hour only off peak so everyone switching to charge at off peak Then off peak becoming a new peak demand
This is what happens happens when we have Numties running the country,an idiot could have foreseen that during period’s of high demand ie. winter conditions we cannot produce enough electricity to to meet demand,once again people are being conned into spending money on electric vehicles that are NOTHING more than expensive shopping trolleys. They want to ban gas boilers now to help the environment,another con that’s being forced upon us because of the Green Brigade who can’t see the wood from the trees. Poor people don’t stand a chance the way things are going with gas and electricity prices rising nearly every month as well as food prices up every time they shop,there’s very difficult times ahead which will lead to many people getting into dept and loose their homes,seen it all before during my lifetime.
EV cars are NOT GREEN! Made using more fossil fuels than regular cars! Estimated 70,000 miles usage for a EV car to balance it's carbon footprint! Electric needed to charge ALL EV cars is made using fossil fuels! 1/3 of EV drivers change BACK to petrol/diesel! Stick to petrol/diesel vehicles & don't fall for the 'climate' lies!
The off peak demand will never exceed peak demand as it stands because industrial use plus consumer use is order of magnitude higher than off peak demand. The grid normally shuts down whole power stations off peak. If everyone in the country had an EV the diversity factor alone would mean than only a small percentage will need to charge their car every night so the demand will still be low in comparison.
@@putinthanus124 if demand goes up during off peak to balance the load so will the off peak tarrif to balance the profits. If demand goes up without the extra supply so does price.
They can’t even get smart meters to work correctly, so how will they do this? They’ve enforced this behaviour by banning the sale of petrol and diesel cars. So why should the consumer take onus yet again on being forced into this? Ridiculous.
It's quite simple all of the chargers come with the ability schedule a charge. Consumers want this because of smart tarrifs. Eg. Octopus Go which you get reduced rates to charge your car between 0030 and 0430. Day rate 30p, night rate 7.5p. So I really don't want 6be charging my car at any time other than that anyway. All that will be done is they'll put some software patch on scheduling that charge from the begginging. To the user it's the same, arrive home at 1830, plug in, but instead of instantly starting to charge it just waits for the cheaper greener electricity. My smart meter works grand mate, so no problems there. Yeah they messed up with gen 1,never mind. This really is only a benefit to consumers. If I want to charge the car at peak times I can and will under the new rules, but it will cost me more anyway so not bothered unless it's crucial for some reason. I only need to Charge once a week really anyway though so no biggie.
@@Lewis_Standing you can already schedule charging now. One of my customers does it. What I don’t like is them enforcing it because of their mistake. Ban combustion vehicles but not realising the grid won’t take it. It’s dieselgate all over again.
The ban on selling ICE cars is a political decision which was made without proper consultation with Electricity generators / distributors. I have a basic BP smart charger which came free with the car. Even that can schedule charge periods and vary the charge rate during each charge period (slow, medium, high) and that works OK. It doesn't matter when I plug the car in, it will only start charging at the next programmed charge period I have solar, so if I had to pay for the charger I would have got a Zappi that varies the charge rate with any solar export to grid. On a general point, it's a bit frustrating that, having invested in solar, I get nothing for any export and have to pay for anything I might import later in the day. A friend who had solar installed many years ago gets paid for what he generates, even if he uses it all himself - which he does !
@@gap9992 precisely my point. The market is all over the place and mostly due to poor understanding by the government. If they implemented a much better minimum rate for solar, more people would take it up.
Why? Asda has signed up to a similar system where the grid can request what hours all their refrigeration plants run their defrost cycle at, meaning the grid can shed megawatts of load on demand. This is very similar to having a charge point with a CT around your mains incomer which limits the charge current depending on the overall draw at your property, just where that control's coming from further up the chain.
@@okaro6595 does it end at EV? How far will this extend into the future? Is this a temperate measure until we gain more energy independence (no thankyou to the initial problems of renewables)?
@@fusebox4473 lots of smart home tech isn’t super useful - but I’d be happy to buy a connected washing machine/dishwasher etc that can vary when they turn on automatically in return for cheaper rates
" I'm happy to have my house controlled by somone else". No ill never be happy to let others have control over any of my life. This will end in ultimate governmental control...
what they will do is say you are allowed xx kwh and tough schi7 when you used it, unless you are gvt of course who can use all they want and the public won't do a damn thing about it......
@@ogasi1798 that's called energy rationing, and they've already been out denying it so you know they are working on it. Despite the fact the United Nations agendas have stated more than 20 years ago that they would make man the enemy of the planet (climate change) tick that off. Rationing of all forms, food and energy is on the list. Funny how they have started to introduce scenarios where they have limited the numbers of items you can purchase, i.e hand sanitizer and toilet rolls. Our fault of course! Now they are introducing the concept of energy rationing. Won't be long until you start seeing the question in the news "should we be rationing fuel and energy"
Impossible for many reasons, the best they can do is encourage. Rare most would want to anyway, more expensive electricity and most people are at work.
Annoyingly the UK national grid is run as a private company. It should be anticipating the needs of its users and scale it's output to meet future demand. All the government should be doing is charging it with the responibility to meet it's legal commitments. It's top level commitment is to keep 50Hz at 50Hz within 1%. How it does that is its problem not ours.
@@bryanlatimer-davies1222 not Really. The DNO cannot 'cut off' your individual supply without a court order. Using smart meters for rolling power 'cuts' is neither efficient or workable. It would rely on 100% of consumers in the area being targeted to have smart meters and for them all to be operating. This is messy! Right now you can achieve 100% power outage by switching off distribution at a central point.. ie a Power or a sub-station. Smart meters have zero ability to throttle your consumption.
Any government that can make sitting on a park bench illegal, would not have any difficulty enacting "emergency" legislation to such ends, and could impose rationing by cutting supply to anyone who exceeds an arbitary consumption limit
I can see over time, the so called "Off Peak" time disappearing all together as it would appear everyone will be charging pretty much at that same time?
That is a concern. I don't even have an EV but I do have a Tesla Powerwall, which as well as storing solar panel power, charges up with off-peak electricity. The figures for system payback time would be impacted if there was little or no off-peak discount.
I see this problem disappearing as batteries become cheaper. The energy companies will eventually start using battery packs as buffers for peak hours, and use idle hours to recharge them. That way, no need to invest in extra capacity and no need to ramp up or ramp down power plants throughout the day. I'm pretty sure they will gladly buy your 70% degraded pack so they can use it specifically for this purpose.
You're failing to take into account increased usage. We've been decreasing energy usage for a long time through efficiency, but we're beginning to shift a lot more things to electric, while there'll be more off peak load, there'll also be more on-peak load. There'll still be a desire to incentivise load distribution.
Isn't this yet more proof that the national grid need to get their finger out and upgrade their infrastructure. I never see them improving or upgrading. They only install new when is fails or becomes dangerous.
They can upgrade the transmission infrastructure as much as they like, if there’s not sufficient generation capacity it all for nought, watch the lights go out this winter!
@GeeKIller that is totally untrue, refineries take their energy from oil and generally generate their own power form small turbines, though the UK is sadly lacking in refinery capacity today. As for subsidising electricity, in the UK we are paying massive subsidies to make wind and solar viable at the cost of reliable fossil and nuclear energy … … all of which has nothing to do with generation capacity and reliability of supply in next few years.
Fantastic... Let's stifle the current system(petrol) and force electric cars, before we have sufficient power to run them.... Seems like an opportunity to charge more. What a shower of shit our govt is....
Morning. Sorry I'm gunna be 5 hours late for work this morning. Why ? Oh well I put the car on charge. But cause of the football. And the neighbors cooking. And the weather. The government stopped my car from charging.
It's a good thing you don't live in France then, because I believe they've had a system for years which regulates the days some cars can't be driven. Something to do with odd and even numbers on licence plates or something......
@@andrewsundell2502 That’s true - we’ve all got a background and an agenda after all - but he seems to be someone who is just telling it like he thinks it is. I guess the thing is to try and find a number of these type of opinions and make your own mind up!
get rid of your smart meter, keep your diesel or petrol car. This is the begining and it will get worse. when the power lines come down after a storm and take weeks to repair, you even be able to get to the shops for food or get to work or school, no gas heating or backup geny.
From the very first day of EV ownership I have never plugged my car in at home expecting it to start charging immediately. I have always set my charging to start and finish when grid demand and cost to me is lowest. I can cope with this.
Exactly. I do the same. The UK grid has *huge* spare capacity during the night hours. It isn't possible to simply switch it off. You cannot do that with power stations. The electricity providers needed to create some demand during the night, which is why cheap rate electricity came about 50+ years ago.
Is this not to get EV owners to put in smart chargers so the government can use them to put duty on the electric used for vehicles to make up for lost revenue on petrol and diesel
Sadly most consumers (of energy not just EV users) are too selfish or ignorant to think like you and a small minority of those that work to such principles - they are happy to moan that prices are too high but want things there and now - if everyone was more considerate with their energy usage government probably wouldn't need to legislate. I always think of our household energy as a closed system when our PV is generating like in Star Trek when they have a finite amount of power on-board and have to divert power from engines to life-support until it balance - the whole UK needs to work in the same way - work with what we have not what we want!
@@waltermcphee3787 sorry I didn't mean specifically EV drivers, though as it becomes more common it will be no different to the fights at filling stations when there have been supply issues - I meant users of energy in general e.g. using tumble dryers when the sun's out (user behaviour is complicated but boils down to what individuals want and expect in my opinion, which is all this is)
Throw in V2H as well so my car becomes an extension of my house. Pull from the battery at peak times for the house to avoid grid use, charge with solar or off peak
The tax revenue from petrol/diesel will just be transferred to electricity bills and we'll all end up paying for it regardless of owning a EV. The new legislation it seems is basically a tap that can be turned off at a whim.
Exactly. Anyone who thinks the UK government will let the British public save any money by using electric cars is a fool. They, and the energy suppliers, will make sure we pay the same amount to run electric cars as we do now to run petrol.
No, it won't be transferred to electricity bills. The lost and diminishing tax revenue from reducing sales volumes of petrol and diesel will be replaced by a system of Road Tolls - a pay per mile scheme. The tax burden will move from fuel to actual road *usage*
I think controlling when and where we travel is the bigger plan for government. Very few vehicles ,in the scheme of things, are electric at the moment so there is no possibility in the near future of the grid coping with the need for energy. if everyone with electric vehicles charge at off peak times that will no longer be an off peak period.
Exactly, they were speaking about killing all the Tesla in Russia as part of the sanction. Remember when the government said buy a diesel car, better for the environment. It's all about control they can't remotely shut down older petrol cars, only the newest cars. Nice to see most of the EU going back to coal now they can't get gas........... But, but, but Greta says we only have 10 years to save the planet."How dare you!" 🤣
But if this was the "plan" then they could implement it now by restricting the amount of electricity to oil refineries and petrol stations. Why would they specifically need to wait for mass EV take-up?
As a shift worker I could do with a feature where I can tell my charging system that I need the car ready at say 01:00 in order to drive to work. So long as it is charged by then it won't matter to me. It would be sensible if the car was kept at least partially charged, maybe 50%, in the event that the vehicle is required unexpectedly. I have no problem being regulated so long as it works with me.
This feature is available with some of the smart charging Apps, even as far as the app and car communicating how much charge is required to achieve an amount of miles by a certain time period.
This is already in place for a number of chargers. For example mine is scheduled to always be ready at 7am during the week, it then communicates with the grid and charges based on grid usage to avoid adding to peak usage. I can also add details of timed tariffs so it will prioritise cost if I wish.
I don’t know if it’s still available but Octopus Energy did have a tariff called Go Faster where you could pick a 4 or 5 hour off peak rate period, think it was between 21.00 and 06,00 so it would be ideal for your working pattern. Also you could consider home battery storage but this would be an expensive option.
Ultimately, we are going to need a lot more chargers, and the mains cabling to go with them. At my local Tesco, there are 16 petrol pumps and 4 car chargers. Any time I go, the 4 chargers are all in use, and the 16 petrol pumps are all in use. For the petrol pumps that isn't an issue, because there's never more than a few minutes wait for one to become available, but as electric charging takes a lot longer, waiting for one isn't really practical. Basically, every parking space needs to have a charger.
Where does the power come from to recharge? Nuclear? Coal? Gas? Solar battery? Looks like Nanna will have to turn off her heater/AC so grandkids can recharge their cars for next day?
I've had not a moment's "trouble" in over three years. I plug my EV in when I get home, and the timer in the car begins the charge at 11.30 pm, when my off-peak rate kicks in. It also knocks the charge off 6 hours later once the off-peak rate ends. The car charges while I sleep, and so has zero effect on my life. I do this every 8 to 9 days. I reckon I've saved over £5k by no longer buying petrol. It's you who has the trouble and inconvenience of *having* to drive to a petrol station. I charge on my drive.
This is only really addressing the home charger; need to address both low power street/car park charging which gives 'charge as you park', and maybe also pay for parking, and higher power chargers for fast charging by, say, visitors, or someone who can't leave the car stopped for an extended period. At the moment some users of faster chargers are also getting hit for parking charges or fines because they're in a car park, or supermarket which restricts or limits access (imagine paying to access the fuel pumps). Also need to get rid of the plethora of apps and/or RFID cards for public chargers. Home charging works; it's public chargers which are the problem.
I think maybe street lights could be modified for low power top up charging. Would be much cheaper than installing lots of new under ground cabling for seperate chargers
@@adrianthoroughgood1191 Some street lights are modified for that in London. Low power, but then the infrastructure has to support the potential future load. They're single-phase, so a max of 7kW. BUT, there are too many suppliers with too many apps, and some need a subscription. And you still pay for parking, except overnight. Obviously residents get parking (at a price), although some residents aren't allowed parking in some new developments. It doesn't really help the visitor unless there's a nearby hub (which is likely in London). Other areas, e.g. the West Country put chargers in car parks and charge for parking, and supermarkets with low-power chargers don't allow overnight parking, just 'grazing' whilst shopping.
@@CW-om2qq More standardisation would be a great benefit. There should be a sigle account / card to use them all, even if they are operated by different companies. I don't know why they don't just accept payment from a contact less payment card without the extra messing about. Shops, busses, the tube etc can.
@@adrianthoroughgood1191 There's talk of future standardisation to CC/debit card, but 'clubs' with a subscription still likely to exist. It's because you can make money that way. We're patching on chargers at the moment, but not really thinking ahead (as in too many things). There will still be the congestion problem with EVs, but you're still likely to need personal transport. Some habitation will forever be remote. Need to be able to generate and distribute the electricity, and cope with surges whilst ensuring security of supply. We're in a transition stage at the moment so mistakes will be made, but they need to be abandoned quickly, or killed off in review before implementation. 'Apps' sounded a good idea to the young designers looking at cities, but practically they aren't.
We're going to need the generation and distribution "copper in the ground" capacity eventually anyway, so why not start building it now? The longer we wait and try to patch the current system with stuff like DSR the more expensive the proper long-term solutions will get.
DNOs (or DSOs as they are renaming) predict over 50% of power generation will be at a local level by 2050 - so the question is where to put the copper.
Maybe not, the car charging loads don't necessarily have to be greater than what happens during the evening peak (cooking) of course if we are serious about moving home heating to electricity to then we need upgrade for that.
@@efixx how are they going to do that then ?? So having to produce more at local level would mean building thousands of local power generation plants. I myself think it's all pie in the sky and I work for a DNO(DSO). oh and if you live in a town with lots of terraced streets hoe are you going to charge every car in that street 'at certain times' without every house having cables running acoss footpaths or having a dedicated charging pole outside each houses car parking spot ? This 'green ' nonsense has to stop or soon it'll be the sole privilege of the rich that can have vehicles and be able to travel. Even pwer engineers all agree the distribution (not transmission) networks will not be able to be installed fast enough (years and years behind to install larger csa' cables) to feed every street road and town/village. Transmission maybe, distribution not a chance. !
I will never allow the grid to take power out of my car unless it compensate me for the reduced life I will see as a result of increased charge/discharge cycles. It could easily halve the useful life of a car battery depending on rate, time and frequency. Nope... not happening.
The grid can't just "take" power from your car. You have to be signed up to a vehicle to grid (V2G) scheme first, and you would decide your own "low waterline" level. And it already *is* happening in Britain, with 2 V2G schemes operating here already. One in the North East, and a further one in Bedfordshire......
@@Brian-om2hh I never said they could just take it and my current car and charger won't support it so it's not a problem right now. My point was that I personally will never let them take it or have it as it's unlikely any replacement of energy will compensate for the wear and tear on a battery discharge/charge cycle. If for example my batteries life was halved would the compensation cover the early replacement of the battery or car? Nope.
As a- recent Tesla Y owner and avid follower of your channel this was ex tremely interesting. I've got a Tesla Gen 3 wall connector (and thanks to you) an O-Pen fault device.With this setup the charging times are setup in the car app. Unfortunately a fiddly process as I'm on E10 and so far Tesla haven't created stored UK time schedules. Having said that, at Ieast the Tesla software does work out the start time based on adjustable amperage and required completion time thus creating a degree of randomness. In my country of birth (NZ) electric hot water heating was controlled according to grid load by what was called "ripple control" -well before the invention of the Internet! A signal was superimposed on the normal frequency controlling everyone's hot water heating (we didn't have gas water heating then)~ as far as I'm aware this was very reliable.
A system of automatically adjusting water heating load is being trialled in the UK based on the principle that when the grid is overloaded the frequency reduces and when it's underloaded it increases. So the heater just has to monitor the frequency and adjust accordingly. Helps to stabilise the grid and you get discounted electricity.
sounds like, if you have been a bad boy and government did not like your Facebook post, that your car wont get charged, so stopping you from traveling. don't let anyone decide when your car gets charged, better still buy a diesel and forget this years fad
A simple random delay of connection of up to 10 mins at peak times might assist the **generators** of electricity but it essentially does nothing to address any limitations of the existing LV networks, which could be a great deal more significant in their influence on when customers can and cannot connect their EV for charging. That needs a whole other level of "smart".
My energy supplier (Octopus) can already "talk" to my car and my charger to control charging time and rate. The only thing missing is the capability to feed back from the car to my house/the grid.
@@johnmckay1423 that's a great feature to have to allow your supplier to control your charger but they have no way of knowing how 'stressed' or otherwise your local network is when they connect the charger. There is no feedback mechanism from the LV network to suppliers and even if there was, who decides which chargers get connected and when and at what charge rate? Lots of variables in this equation!
@@protectiongeek Question from point of ignorance: I'd assumed the live data from my smart meter was available to them and my understanding was that with Smets2 it was a national database, so DNOs could also access it. Is that not the case? If not, that would seem easier to sort than putting unnecessary copper in the ground. (I'm not saying no infrastructure is needed, only that it should be minimised.) At the minute I assume it's based on historic data; Octopus choose their charging period based on the dynamic pricing which is set one day ahead. I know they feed in weather forecasts as well as history.
@@johnmckay1423 Answer from a point of limited knowledge re smart metering - I'm a retired DNO engineer not completely _au fait_ with the SMETS2 standard as it wasn't in my day-to-day remit. Firstly, I don't think the uplink data is 'live' and even if it was, it couldn't be relied upon to aggregate the load on any particular LV main cable, simply because not everyone supplied by that cable will have a smart meter or smart charger/tariff. From the point of view of data protection, your specific data could not be shared with the DNO without some fairly complex agreements. I suppose aggregate data **could** be shared but there are lots of holes in that data (lots of customers without smart metering). The half-hourly data from Industrial and commercial metering is not uploaded in real time but batched and sent to the supplier but NOT the DNO. Many years ago, if I was designing a new connection to an LV network, I could log in and look at I&C customer data like maximum real and reactive demand, etc but that facility went a looong time ago. DNOs _could_ potentially install SCADA-based equipment in secondary distribution substations to monitor individual LV main feeder loads. The amount of data collected every second from existing systems monitoring the high-voltage and Grid networks is huge - adding LV network data would be an enormous undertaking but not impossible. There's still an issue of analysing the data, however when looking at the load on a particular feeder. It's likely to be supplying different types of customer - domestic, light industrial, heavy industrial and commercial. The load 'behaviours' of a lot of such customers can be modelled - that's partly what informs network design to an extent - but even if you could do this, who/what decides which chargers get connected and at what charge rate? It's not easy to come up with an objective set of rules to do this. I know there's a number of charger manufacturers looking at this as well as the DNOs. It's a tricky problem to solve and I suspect more than a little AI will be involved. And then there's the growth of heat pumps!.... I probably sound pretty cynical about this - I am to and extent as I've witnessed 'smart' solutions being trialled in the past by people who know a lot about technology and theory but haven't thought through the practicalities of how, exactly, their solutions will work when presented with multiple, equally valid demands. I am genuinely interested in what the _functioning_ solutions turn out to be, if for no other reason than I hope to change my car to an EV soon! I enjoyed this eFIXX video, like all others but the idea of 100 chargers daisy-chained off a 63A breaker seems a bit of a challenge. OK the 100 number was just an illustration but even so, the expectations of the EV owners/operators connecting to such a daisy-chain might be difficult to manage if they're sharing a single source breaker. Also, the supply cable termination looked lovely and neat, as you would expect but I can't help but wonder just what the in-and-out cable arrangement would look like. Sorry for the long-winded reply!
@@protectiongeek Long reply appreciated👍 Maybe it's because my background is data analysis and IT system design (I think the saying goes along the the line "if the only told in your box is a hammer, then a hammer is what you'll use) I think the key will be the negotiation/balancing. Average daily distance travelled per car in the UK is under 20 miles/day. Most EVs travel 3 miles/kWh and the better ones do 4. Therefore most EV users will need between 5 and 7kWh over a 12 hour period. In terms of the range people think they need and the electricity demand required, most people completely overestimate their requirements. I fell into that trap too before I had an EV; we're fortunate to have a 3 phase supply and I was convinced I'd need 3 phase chargers once we had 2 cars but I couldn't persuade the supplier to fit one. It would have been completely unnecessary. I'm pleased we've got a 3 phase supply as I know I don't need to worry, but the cars never charge at the same time we run the heat pump and demand on the house could easily be balanced. ASHP plus oven plus kettle plus microwave would be a stretch, but the ASHP could easily be switched off or turned down for an hour while I cook dinner. You could do a lot of load balancing with home batteries, but once my second EV arrives next month I'll have 130kWh battery sitting on the drive. It makes much more sense to use the resource I already have. If I'm driving the electricity gets used for that. On the days I work at home, there's enough storage in the battery to run my ASHP. Definitely sounds like the systems aren't here yet.
Another great video with sensible questions, answered by an expert in the field. As a Tesla and a PHEV Mitsubishi owner who also has all of the current Myenergi products as well as Solar PV and 11.6 KWh Battery Storage with a 5 kW inverter, I’m really excited for the future of renewable energy and as I have recently retired (ironically I was the manager of an offshore Oil and Gas installation), I’m trying to reduce my monthly outgoings as well as my impact on the environment. I hope the government also look at improving the minimum standards of insulation in all new builds to reduce energy demand throughout the year.
So what’s to be done with regards accommodating those who have a solar array and home battery storage that are mostly self sufficient? So even the person might have invested in the above why are they forced to link into the internet. Are we saying they cannot have a charge point on UK land that is stand alone? What about existing charge points that are not internet connected are they to be forced to be? The more and more I hear about the infrastructure issues and regulation changes the more I think that it either has to go one of two ways: hydrogen energy (or other more environmentally better alternative) with electric drive train in which case the development of the electric car hasn’t been a complete waste as we’re only taking about where the energy is coming from. Or The government subsidise independent consumer and company infrastructure as in localised solar generation with battery storage to kind of act as a capacitor or buffer to the grid. Of course then you get into the more complicated situations where people are taking Energy while charging at work home to run the kettle. Let’s face it battery technology is over 100 years old, and they are not the long term solution to save the planet when it comes to running a car. My thinking is that if we are to make such a big step change and effort to do the right thing why are batteries even considered as a power source. I would not be surprised if this tech in 15-20 years is dropped for something else. And then everything that was done now was a waste of time. Meaning also it would have been better for the environment to stay as we are until the power cell for the electric drivetrain has been perfected (for example hydrogen or other). And of course those who resisted the forced change won’t get any compensation for the period of time they did use alternatives due to the additional stealth tax they have paid through fuel or road tax so on. More than likely the people that were actually helping the environment spending their own money to do so for investing in the systems mentioned above also happened to have a garden full of trees that actually offset running their ice car if they had one (because they enjoy driving). Such a fair system we have. So before we all high five each other on how genius we are lets spare a consideration to the potential nonsense of it all.
Sounds similar to the logic used to not upgrade the telecom infrastructure in the 90's... and now look at everyone clambering to put lightpipes in the ground. Can only patch the system so much before someone has to make the call to upgrade.
Government: “Everyone must buy electric cars or we’re all gonna die!” Also Government: “So… That $$$$$$$$$$$ we told you to spend on the electric car? We’re just gonna make that a useless paperweight now.”
@@terrynicholson9273 I don't think people realise how easy it will be for Govt to stop them travelling - either by a kill-switch in the EV itself, or lack of 'working' recharging points.
Excellent video. Thanks for the heads-up. I suppose the regulations completely ignore home battery/solar/off grid/ev to grid users who actually help/completely fix the problem.
In Belgium from July onwards we get taxed on peak useage. It gets meassured by the quarter hour and averaged over the year. Obviously only possible on the new digital meters we get installed everywhere in rapid fashion.
Which is why so called Smart Meters are a dumb reality for sensible people. Dumb meters can't compensate for power factor, nor can they charge for peak periods. Again, go figure. I am not going to pay multi national corporations ( by way of subsidy ) to tell me how to pay their wages. It is an absolute undemocratic outrage that the poorest in society are commanded to pay and guarantee the security and wealth of the rich. And I'm not even a socialist.
Very interesting, I wonder how long before all EV charging points are completely synced together via some kind of cloud based power sharing infrastructure with bi directional charging/discharging to help balance the grid?
Although the government could do exactly the same with petrol and diesel cars if they wished, by rationing the availability of fuel. Why might they have to wait for mass EV take-up to do it?
Charge points must also: incorporate pre-set, off peak, default charging hours and allow the owner to accept, remove or change these upon first use and subsequently allow for a randomised delay function A full outline of device-level requirements can be found in the regulations.
@@sined726 no! Offpeak electricity is created by keeping thermal power plant running overnight to minimise startup time and reduce costs associated with startup/shutdowns. Renewables when they run have no such startup requirements. And with increasing solar forcing extensive and expensive storage evening and nighttime electricity will be more expensive to produce!
That is a really good point. Sometimes I just need a couple of hour top up to 100% for a long journey the next day. Perhaps we all just have to accept that our 4 hour window is going to reduce for the greater good and live with it 🤷♂️
Some management is needed, you can't have thousands of cars all starting charging automatically when a cheap tariff starts, this all seems reasonable as long as your pricing (kwh) is at a reduced rate.
You're correct, of course, that management is needed. Just think of all the off-peak space heating loads that used connect every night over a **very** short span of time. The need to manage these (almost) step-loads inspired the development of radio-teleswitching to break the load connection into manageable 'chunks'.
@@protectiongeek BTW, electric heating is a resistive load, so it already automatically responds to grid load. When the load on the grid rises over supply, the voltage drops. A resistive load's energy consumption is a directly proportionate to the voltage. If you've ever seen lightbulbs getting dimmer when some big load like an oven or a boiler switches on, that's exactly that---less voltage causing the bulb to use less energy and produce less light. Sadly, electronic devices and battery chargers are not resistive loads...
@@HenryLoenwind not entirely sure how the fact that electric heating is resistive helps generators deal with the 'sudden' application of 100s of MW of load over a period of around 10 minutes. Application of load does cause the local voltage to drop but the voltage envelope is regulated by statute in the UK and _should_ remain within the -6% to +10% of the nominal 230/400V supply voltage. Consequently, the design of LV and MV networks takes this into account in the specification of distribution transformers and the operation of automatic voltage control systems at primary substations. Non-linear loads, such as EV chargers, will present issues in addition to the applied load, such as harmonic distortion.
Shortsighted people who push plans thru before proving they will work in large capacity always make the average person bear the burden of their failure . Wind and solar being a classic example . Immigration another in the fact ,not enough housing ,hospitals ,schools welfare and the cost blow outs .
As usual uk plc gives u discounts to buy ev's then limits the Electric to power them,you can't make it up.i will stay with my wee clio that does about 67mpg thanks.
I was surprised that the conversation didn’t extend to using Electric Vehicles stored electricity to support the Network at periods of peak demand, as an alternative to switching on additional “Power Stations” / “Generators”. So EV customers could choose to sell back to the grid at peak periods and then replenish their EVs during cheap periods!!
@@edc1569 Batteries in cars are specified for massive discharge and recharge rates (accelerating a 2 ton lump of metal, ultra fast charging and regenerative braking). Household use is trivial load compared to that and will cause far less wear than normal use for driving. Probably measurable impact on battery wear, but not significant in relation to life cycle of car.
It was an interesting discussion, but around 6 mins in, it reminded me that the concept of “interruptible supply” in exchange for agreed tariff rates goes back a long way; nothing new in that. It is the structure of the industry that is new, compared with the times when most generation was from coal, and some of it nuclear via relatively large individual sources - power stations. What is not mentioned is how the idea of demand management could work in a system in which there can be several utility supply companies operating on the same local grid, operated by the District Network Operator (DNO), which in some places is not involved in supply contracts with any consumers (e.g. SSE, which sold part of it’s business off to another firm). However, whatever the bureaucratic position is, the current version of BS7671 already says that “Load curtailment, including load reduction or disconnection, either automatically or manual, may be taken into account when determining maximum demand of the installation or part thereof”. It’s long been the norm to do sums based on “load diversity” to avoid installing unnecessarily large buried cable, local transformers, etc, but it appears that there is an assumption that diversity is not applicable to car battery chargers, whereas it is OK for other domestic appliances. E.g. where I live, there are at least 30 houses fed by a buried 3 core cable rated at 355A @400V (quite a new one, installed in 2021).
The EV car will have a huge battery say 500 miles or 100kwh but the Daily drive is 40miles or 7kwh. The home will need 5kwh over night So 100 - 7 - 5 = 88 kwh to trade with the grid. The EV car should be automatically plugged into the grid 24/7, except for rush hour. 240volt slow charging or discharging from the grid 24/7. The money is in the grid. The power supply will be from dispersed supply, all the homes with rooftop solar 😄 The concentrated power will be from the power stations as required. Grid stability will be from the millions of EV car's batteries. The automatic plug in gizmo in shopping centre, work carparks, homes, etc. The automatic plug in gizmo is the killer invention. Petroleum will be a strategic military reserve.
I'll stay with petrol thanks , I don't want the government controlling when I can and can't get the power to my car , if too much power is taken up by car charging they will use that excuse to limit your power to charger to stop you
Generally don’t mind this - but I’m on intelligent octopus which lets octopus control when my car charges overnight and I just tell it what % I need and by when. It’s similar to my phone whihc I plug in to charge overnight but it stops itself charging fully until closer to when I wake up to save the battery health. It makes no difference to me as I get up and it’s ready.
So for many years we have had off peak power avalable. All controled by time clocks . Turning on storage heating and all manner of of peak loads. And the grid have been able to anticipate. This sudden increase in load . But now we need a variable delay. Realy. As for the rest of the content I would be surprised if ppl don’t understand about charging and when best to charge depending on there tariff . Though I do know some who have a fixed tariff and will charge at any time. So is. This a hint. That the off peak tariff is going to be. Lost to the past
These networks seem like soft targets for foreign governments, handy if you can wipe out the UK grid by triggering all the cars to start charging in the same second. An EV charger suppliers infrastructure is going to be a pretty soft target.
Cars initiate charge, not “chargers”. The charger is actually in the car. What you would call a “charger” on the wall is just an access point. You would have to simultaneously access the software of every single car in the country to pull that off.
In Australia - we've got lots of solar here - so storage is being discussed at-length for EV charging. Everyone will have fairly large battery systems and we can dump power into the cars when we get home.
Can't get enough batteries for cars, don't know where they're coming from for storage. Demand for EV in UK would use current world production, when ice ban comes in 7 years.
Australia is also addicted to coal powered electricity generation as well as exporting your 'black gold' for others to use to pollute the planet. Given all the sun Australia should be at the top of the renewables table but it's way down.
It would be more sensible to mandate that all car parking should have charging available and charge your car during the day when spare electricity is available rather than having to have loads more batteries to time shift it.
Sounds great in principle but reality is supply must always meet demand otherwise ultimately it would limit potential. Policy change will come when Gov realises other countries will continue with proven trend of increasing supply and the UK will be left behind living with rolling blackouts.
The flip side of this is at certain times we have too much renewable energy. So being able to move excess power in to car batteries is a better alternative than paying to limit generation.
The whole of the UK is not the issue... Scotland produces lots of power.. while in England NIMBYs stop new wind turbines, Neuks etc... All well and good but only up to the point where you need to buy in power from other sources...🤔👍
@@G-Cam1 seems like you missed the news regarding nuclear 👍🏼 and don’t say they’re years away as 100% EV ownership is also years away. The UK will have to find a way to compete globally at the end of the day 🤷🏼♂️
Yes supply needs to meet demand, but we can be clever with car charging, you don't need the car charged until the morning, and you can pay a reduced rate to charge it, everyone wins.
@@casualsmartie1942 my two best mates are in the Neuk industry. Its been classed as 'not a vote winner' by consecutive government's. This situation was fully predicted. One of them was even seconded as a government advisor some 15 years ago! Some 'potential sites' have ben in consultation for almost 30 years!! The irony is that we now consume less energy as the heavy industry sector's have declined.. The latest news on neuks is great but its going to take 10 years minimum to generate a single kW.. Even with the Rolls Royce 'neighbourhood' plants we have no chance unless the NIMBYs are told to shut up and complain about something else. We need action now.
I understood the radio controlled Economy 7 time switch already had 10 minutes random time delay built it to protect grid when the storage heaters clicked in
A question that floats around my head about charging EVs... It takes approximately 30 mins on a fast charge ( so I am told) How will people manage regards charging on the way to work or long journeys via motorway and fuel court charging stations. Example... Driver can't for whatever reason charge his car one evening so has to stop off at the petrol station and charge there There's 3 people in the que before him all taking approx 30 mins each to charge their car. That equates to 2 hours before his car is charged. How many bosses are going to be understanding of staff being 2 hours late for work due to a que at the petrol station. How many People are going to sit in their cars for endless time in the freezing winter months. Has anyone thought about these issues? I'm told there's not enough charging points out there as it is and the infrastructure is poorly designed.
Well most EVs have heaters. So that's not a problem. I'd have thought a boss wouldn't be understanding unless there was good reason you couldn't charge as it would be bad planing. 30 mins is also the 80 percent charge level and it's unlikely you will need that much to get to work. It's also much easier to install chargers than petrol pumps. A typical Tesla station has twice as meny points as a petrol station and that's just for one car brand.
@@njipods I don't have an EV Josh, but have had years of experience with batteries. I find it very difficult to believe that you can run a high drain item like a car heater for hours on a nearly flat battery. Can you provide proof please. Thank you. David
Surely where this is all going is a domestic device that manages any local microgeneration, home storage and domestic loads dynamically so that demand on the grid is minimised and when you do need to pull current (or gas), you do so at a time of lowest price.
It would cost me roughly £21 to fully charge my EV at peak time vs. £4.50 on Offpeak. If that isn't enough encouragement for people to charge outside the peak hours I don't know what is....
@@edc1569 So that all cheaper energy at "offpeak hours" doesn't make much sense does it. The ultimate solution to the problem would be to scratch fixed hours for cheaper/costlier energy and to let the power company regulate when your car is charging and at what speed for the lower cost or you have the option to override and pay higher cost. And after all that you go offgrid and make your own system because of all that BS :D
They can't make smart meters work properly north of Birmingham, so I have to pay a flat rate and consequently plug it in when it's most convenient to me. The bonus that it costs EON double what I actually pay when I do this makes me feel better.
So basically, You buy the car and battery You buy the charger You pay the electricity bill But through regulations they own everything…. I can see why they are exited!!
Charging based upon a price limit and dynamic electricity pricing would enable automatic charging. If you need immediate charging, it can confirm the increased price with the user. Better to have auto bidding and cost limits to control timing.
Octopus already have this in public trials. I've signed up to their tariff which allows them to control when my car charges - subject to my parameters. They guarantee 6 hours of cheap tariff (2 hours longer than their standard EV charging tariff). I plug in anytime after 5 pm and set what percentage I want my car charged to by the time I leave for work. They will charge at whatever time and rate is cheapest for them. No change to my previous routine; previously I plugged in when I got home and set the car to start charging at the beginning of economy 7 period. The charger I have had a software update a year after it was installed to give the option of programming the charging schedule on that.
Maybe if the infrastructure had been upgraded over the years like it should hqve been rather than pumping money into share hold pockets we wouldn't have 130 old plus lead 4mm equivalent conductors feeding homes. If you applied BS7671 to the supply network the test sheet would be endless with the defects.......
In no way at all. Let me break that down: The regulation has 2 points that are visible to the user: (1) Out of the box the charger will come with a charging schedule configured at the factory. You are free to change that schedule to whatever you like. (2) Any time the charging is supposed to start there will be a random delay of 0...10 minutes. That you won't be able to change. The average EV needs less than 1 hour of charging per day. This distributes over the year a bit lumpy, e.g. many people don't drive on Sundays, so they need more on weekdays; on the other hand, on long-distance trips fast chargers are used, not home charging; some people drive twice the average, some drive half. But for the majority of people less than 2 hours every night is more than enough. Many people could do with one full charge on the weekend and no charging on weekdays at all. Or maybe a 2-hour boost on Thursdays. So you are free to schedule your 7 hours a week freely as you need. But if you regularly work 10pm-7am and commute 50 miles a day, you better not select a tariff that only has cheap electricity from 1am-6am. But that has nothing to do with these regulations...
So let's get this straight... I myself don't drive so I don't own a car and live alone. The electricity company will be able to shut down the electric supply ( brownout) in my area to cope with more needed supply elsewhere. How is that fair? Also am I going to be pushed into the variable tariff for using electric? Again how is that fair?
@@efixx In which case I'd just charge my car up using the socket the TV was plugged into, after I've gone to bed. They wouldn't know whether I stayed up all night watching films or charged a car up.
@@Brian-om2hh Or you could just configure a schedule according to your needs. I'm shocked they don't have to sell different alarm clocks with every possible alarm time people need. It seems to be completely unreasonable to expect the user to set their own alarm time...
I would suggest they are already messing with smart meters. My smart meter says my home is using, lets say 500W in the morning as I leave for work, When I come home from work at 16:30 is is still using the same power, as the time approaches 17:00 with no changes, nothing turned on or off. it is using 750W sits there until about 18:00 at which point it would start to drop back to the 500W. TIMES ARE NOT EXACT AND FOR EXAMPLE ONLY. Nothing has changed in the home, and I have tested this while the fridge was turned off which is the only thing I have that is constantly plugged in and fluctuates it's consumption. My thoughts are, people are arriving home and tend to start turning things on so using power, the supplier use it as a prime opportunity to falsely register extra power being used so they can gain extra money and nobody would notice.
Great video about all the laws and regulations which all makes sense, we as a company are just getting setup to offer installations for car chargers as registered NICEIC installers... we have registered with OZEV and DNO for submissions etc. What is really happening is people are buying chargers, home owners and sparkles running out a cable complete set up and job done... no regulation/notification most of them are unaware of what is actually required and why and have no idea about the dangers due to lack of government information,. All chargers should be sold to registered approved installers problem solved. Think there will be loads of problems with unregistered installations like hundreds of them all over the country ....
Not a surprise.. the network is so old and hasn't had any decent investment at years, new builds going up all over the place here, it's fairly common to see a phase go down every so often .. good interesting video
Why is a 7kw charger such an issue. I have storage heaters and an immersion water heater that between then use more than that, and they are switched on by a fairly old electricity meter that has 2 live outputs. (There are 2 fuse boxes in the house - 1 is 24 hours, the other is economy 7)
Your old electricity meter already has a deliberately incorrect version of the time, to avoid the issue of everything turning on at the same moment - your solution is an older version of whats being discussed here.
3 reasons: 1) Your heater doesn't switch on at exactly 1am +/-0.01s in sync with tens of thousands other heaters all over the country. It switches on either when your supplier puts the signal onto your local network segment or when the meter's inaccurate analog clock says so. 2) Resistive loads like heaters automatically use less energy when the line voltage goes down, which it automatically does when the network load exceeds supply. (Ever seen a lightbulb dimming when some big load switches on?) Electronic loads don't do that. 3) Storage heaters are fixed installations and very predictable, they switch on every day at the same time. Cars are not that predictable, they need to be plugged in and don't need a charge every day. (An average EV needs about 1 hour of charge each day and holds about 7 days worth of energy in its battery.) Combined with number one this gives a very sudden random demand spike every quarter hour (and a bigger one on the full hour); people don't set timers to random minutes within the hour. In addition, if everyone were to run their electric heater when they get home in the evening, in the middle of the normal demand spike, that would be an issue for the grid, too. That's why storage heaters were invented in the first place...
Having read a lot of comments I'm surprised that none of them made anything of the environmental harm caused to obtain the materials used in these batteries. Also no mention of what will happen when they at the end of their life and need to be disposed of. Not so many years ago plastic came into existence and everyone thought it was a very good thing and look how that has gone.
So is this effectively the end of the dumb charger (EVSE) then? Seems silly to push this into the chargers and not the EV's itself. Its simple enough to remove the charger off the internet. Good chat with Chris. 👍
I don't think they are banning the use of dumb chargepoints. Remember that every EV comes with a granny charge lead. So all you have to do is plug into a standard 230V socket outlet and start charging. They can't stop that.
You set the finish time.. you're smart charger.. home appliances etc connected to the grid work out between themselves when is the best time to charge.. both for grid capacity.. and to provide the cheapest charging .. new smart tarrifs needs to be set up by energy companies for this...simples🤔... Why is this not happening ????
Thank you for the replies to my previous posts… they bring me back to previous work I did on this. Rather than relying on memory, I dug out some material from the 2010 to 2015 time frame when the Smart Grids and Smart Metering appeared to politicians as offering a lucky way out of the horrendous infrastructure cost of delivering electrical supplies with the resilience and capacity to switch all heating and transport to electricity. This reference consultation document from UK government gives a good background. Fortunately the link still works: www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/consultations/smart_mtr_imp/smart_mtr_imp.aspx This presentation trumpeted the benefits to consumers, but something of a smokescreen. If one spends all day staring at the smart meter display and constantly checks the energy spot market, one might save money, but a day at the races might serve just as well. The objective was to exert demand management so that the electricity grid could survive through remote control of energy intensive products. Two quotes from the consultation: “Load management capability to deliver demand side management - ability to remotely control electricity load for more sophisticated control of devices in the home” “… this approach to the delivery of smart metering will provide functionality with the potential to support other initiatives: … Electric vehicles - by providing the potential for consumers to charge these vehicles at home using smart meter controls or to refuel at alternative charging points while paying for the electricity through the customer's energy bill.” I take the point that current policy seems to be going the way of pay per mile. I find that very strange as smart metering was established to manage electric vehicle charging, as this UA-cam video shows. It is also perfectly capable of identifying when and where an electric vehicle is being charged and billing the user accordingly. No need to establish a pay per mile infrastructure covering the whole country at huge expense. Moreover, this solution to lost revenue would not control demand-side needs directly. It is easy to calculate from petrol and diesel fuel usage that a few more Hinckley Points would be needed to satisfy the extra demand of electric vehicles without any demand-side management. We shall see what happens. For those who want to delve into the history of all this, the UK approach to smart grids and smart metering drew heavily on work in the State of California.
Eventually we need to get to the point that every car parking space has a charger so all cars are plugged in whenever they're not being used. Then the quantity of load balancing available will be huge.
This is great update thanks. I already have my EV charger on a timer 0130 to 0530, for the greenest electricity, and avoid filling battery to 100% for long term battery wear. But I can over-ride whenever I need "alexa, switch on car plug". Now as we move towards the smart grid, which balances load / supply / carbon intensity the future is bright! Looking forward to getting solar panels next, and smart water heating. One more hope / dream is to build lots more wind turbines including on land, so we can stop sending oil money to dodgy countries.
Your EV charger isn't necessarily consuming the 'greenest' electricity just because you have it set to charge between these hours. The wind can easily drop over-night! Charging from a battery that is itself charged using your solar panels (when you're using the car away from home during the day?) would be more impressive.
We're the same here. I have a dumb Rolec chargepoint with an Alexa enabled switch on the pilot. This allows me to schedule charging to start at 0030 and end at 0430, but if I need a charge during the day I can can just turn it on. Once we get our solar array we'll be charging the car as much as possible during the day using the solar.
the future looks grim especially if you view some of the comments here. 1. just expressing that sentiment apparently makes one selfish 2. people who charge EV's at home are privileged to have off street facility to do this, many cannot! 3. Inability to charge off street exposes one to time contraints, high costs, uncertainty, less security 4. toll roads instead of fuel duty need a whole extra monitoring infrastructure which is costly & unnecessary 5. toll roads are potententially another big brother move 6. duty can be by fuel use with ICE or EV using existing infrastructure 7. paying duty thru toll roads cheats EV users of duty savings thus removing an incentive 8. I and many others only use a vehicle only to serve others - is it selfish to have quick reliable refuelling 9. I was shocked to see an EV plugged in but NOT charging during peak demand - charging is slow anyway 10. stealing random 10 mins from your cheap rate charging hours is a con that will probably get worse 11. taking charge back out of your EV shortens the mileage of the EV battery as well as taking out charge 12. the vehicle tax pays for roads - not fuel duty. Fuel duty is general tax like VAT (you pay both on petrol) It's awesome how the our rail systems were built by past generations with massive manpower and without the equipment and tech we have today and yet somehow made a workable system (for a while). Then you look at today; high public costs but low public investment in the grid and base load MSR power stations. We baulk at the idea of strengthening the grid as if it is the last thing we should consider. Short term solutions store up long term problems. That is dishonest polititical thinking, that is where we are today big time, writ large for all to see as if we are proud of it. It is shameful theft from future generations.
I can remember when diesel vehicles first came onto the market and the government kept advertising the fact that diesel was so much cheaper than petrol. So slowly, lots of us changed to diesel vehicles, which were slow and noisey, but hey, it was saving a lot in fuel costs. Then once the majority of vehicles were diesel powered, diesel suddenly is more expensive than petrol. I will never buy an E car, because sometime down the road,, I know I will get shafted by the government, and I don't think I will need to wait long for that.
give a few year before there charging £1.70 per kwh at charging stations, Ive notice them shooting up by 7p already, Ontop of the cost of these vehicles which are horrendous i think they are selling people down the drain again
The cheapest way to charge my EV the better. If it's a special EV tariff or DNO deciding to switch me on and off when it's cheapest. I spend far too much on an asset that sits there doing nothing for 95% of the time.
@@barrieshepherd7694 That's a question you need to ask your energy supplier..... As an EV owner, I can only suggest you get an EV, then you'll be able to take advantage of the cheaper rate.....
So. In the future, we're all driving electric cars and the government control the charging options on them. Cue another pandemic or similar and public movement is restricted by law. Chargers will be turned off and no one will go anywhere. And, as some of the old hands here know, our leaders are very apt at quietly slipping in further taxation. Especially once your tied in and have no way to change. Essentially, this gives them too much control over the public. Yet again, another good idea hijacked.
Couple of things that really need tackling here. I have no issue at all delaying my charge, as long as my off-peak tariff follows along. As said in the video, customers don't want to lose out on off peak time. Also for solar owners when is the issue of insanely low rates via the SEG going to be tackled? If I'm going to be expected to flex my charging to reduce demand on the grid then why can't I be paid properly for energy I'm feeding back to the grid? Currently rates are even lower than off peak electricity rates and this isn't acceptable. With the growing amounts of homeowners with battery storage they should be encouraged to feed that back to the grid too. We can help the grid considerably but need to be compensated in turn. More than happy too feed back a kW or two at peak rates. Decentralisation is another solution to the problem.
Octopus intelligent does exactly that, it gives you a 6 hour cheap window instead of 4, but allows them to decide when to charge your car. You set a goal and they get you there but on their terms. Currently only open to teslas. The issue of a low SEG will never be solved. The price per kwh for electricity is only 1/3 of the bill. The rest are made up by their overheads, eg billing and by green and social (mainly the latter) levies. They are never going to pay you back the levies etc, so they give you an amount that's similar to the wholesale cost of the energy. I believe that octopus agile gives you better variable rates for exports, say 12p ish but your imports are currently always basically 35p since this gas price crisis. Gone are the days of occasional negative prices.
Or, just buy a charging cable, contactor and the charging relay module and build a charger for £100-120 with no big-brother control. 7.2kW EVC's are not clever or fancy, they are a cable, a contactor and a logic board. Simple as that. I didn't even have a control module in my MK1 DIY charger. It was a cable, into a 40A isolator connected to a 32A RCBO in my garage, plugged car in, switched on isolator, car messaged me at about 98% charge (I set it like that) and I would go out and unplug it 10 minutes later. Cost me £90 for the cable, and £15 for the isolator.
I do t have a problem with this in itself but the government has a very bad track record of these large scale edicts. The smart meter fiasco is a classic example of them rushing things that have clearly not worked. Now the real requirement is that I have my car at the level I need for the use I have. Anything getting in the way of that is simply unacceptable. Electric cars are not the best solution for emissions when taking the whole life cycle, but it’s being driven by the green agenda, but they are inevitable so we have to manage them.
If a potential 10-minute delay means that your car is not full enough for your needs, the inability to set a charge time that starts 10 minutes earlier can only attributed to what's inside your head.
The latest fun idea our government's wanting to do (Once they've pushed everyone they can into buying an electric car) is use these cars as a kind of battery bank to store excess energy from the grid. So you'll plug in your car, and at peak times the grid will actually be sucking power OUT of your partially depleted battery. This power will then be replaced at no cost at some point during the rest of the charging cycle. This may not sound that bad, but think about it. A key factor of why Li-Ion battery packs "Wear out" is due to the number of charge cycles they have on them. If you don't neccecery work office hours you may come home from work, plug in your car, and get it fully charged. THEN the grid might start pulling out power to help with peak demand. Once demand drops off again, your car is charged back up to full again and you're none the wiser. Maybe you work from home, and your car's only there for emergency's and personal use. The car could be sat on (What you assumed was) a battery life friendly trickle charge all week, but in reality it was having partial battery cycles took out of it's packs life every day. Will the government be willing to take financial responsibility for the expensive battery packs that their power storage idea will prematurely age?........ Will they hell !
You are describing V2G - Vehicle To Grid. It's already huge in Norway, with many whom have signed up to V2G schemes making the equivalent of £30 a week. The V2G system is intelligent, and "learns" your daily energy requirements so as not to leave you with less charge than you'd normally need. Although you can of course override the system and set your own "waterline" limit if you choose. If you normally charged on an EV tariff at (say) 7.5p per kwh, then sold some of your charge to the grid during the night, being paid 2 or 3 times what you paid for it, then you're in profit. My immediate thoughts might be to charge for free at my local Sainsburys, then sell some of it to the grid. But alas, there are no V2G schemes generally available just yet. There are just two I'm aware of. One at the Nissan plant in Sunderland, and the other is at Nissan's R & D Centre in Bedfordshire....
@@Brian-om2hh Yeah, but will the potential profit be enough to compensate someone for maybe only getting 6 or 7 years before the car needs a replacement battery (That costs almost what the cars worth at that point), rather than not taking part in the system and it lasting up to 10 years? This kind of system only really benefits an EV's owner if they buy new and replace the car every 3 to 4 years with another new one. A second hand buyer will be faced with the problems of working out the true value of something like a 4 year old car with significantly over the average number of charge cycles on it Vs a high mileage car that's been used long distance each day, but has a lower total number of recharges under it's belt. As a random side thought here. There's laws against tampering with a cars mileage in most countries, but is there anything specifically in place to make it illegal to re-flash an EV's battery control module and make it report back below average usage? When the difference between the value of a car that's had an easy life, and one that's been getting heavily used as a national grid storage device (And is nearing the point when it will need a new battery fitting) could run into many thousands of pounds, unless there's protection against tampering, the underhanded element of society would happily pay someone to tweak the firmware and deceive buyers if it means maximising the resale price of their car.
Battery cycle life is determined by the number of times the battery is fully discharged. Small variations in charge level do not reduce the battery life and generate revenue. Meanwhile the battery also has a calendar life, so it gradually loses capacity over the years. Hence a 2009 Mitsubishi iMIEV will have reduced battery capacity even if it has a low mileage. EV owners will be better off earning a small amount each month from grid services. Everyone will benefit from reducing the need for grid reinforcement.
That electric car you bought will ultimately be used as energy storage for the power grid and the best thing ( for them) is you'll be the one paying for it.
New to EV Charging - check out the full EV charger installation playlist
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List of the greenest cars when everything is counted in:
1st place: Hybrid
2nd place: Petrol/ diesel
3rd place: Electric
Sadly, promoting electric cars does overall the biggest damage to the environment.
I feel like I've just watched the best 17 minute informercial for the petrol pump ever made. Even with the huge fuel prices, nothing would get me to buy an EV yet.
@@zlmdragon. A bit random - 5 months later.
@@zlmdragon. I'm just saying it was a bit random. Had you had a drink?
Boris last month: No more internal combustion cars made by 2030, EV’s only!!
Boris this month: Stop charging your electric cars please!!
Y3p
Slow March to communism through socialistville
next mth - diesel and petrol manufacturing is back on the table (was never really off tnf) and is going nowhere ! the best outcome for all - EV is a lie, yes they have benefits but the reason to sell and buy is a lie - gvt haven't even started punishing ev owners yet, plenty to come i am sure
@@ogasi1798 You can talk if the cost of running an EV reaches the cost of an ICE car. People like you never seem to protest about the cost of petrol and the taxes imposed on it.
Boris next month: hope you've got good strong shoes😁
You will own nothing and you’ll be happy.
And *we will* switch your power on and off.
That’s where it’s going.
Incredible that so many cannot see this.
They just ignore it because it's complete and utter crap. If you want to believe the silly conspiracies you see on Twitter, that's fine.
They don't see it because they don't read the ridiculous garbage you obviously read. And by the way, how can the nation's economy function if nobody owns anything? Where would people work, if nobody owned a business? And randomly switching people's power off would become a total legal nightmare. Anyone who has a mains electricity supply pays a daily standing charge. What do you suppose would happen if people had their electricity supply randomly cut off, but were still charged the daily standing charge as if it wasn't?
The Govt force the use of electric cars when we haven't got the capacity to cope.
Now it wants to decide if/when it can be charged.
What an absolute joke
Nobody is forcing you. If you don't want an electric car, then don't have one. It's simple enough.
@@Brian-om2hh Turn your brain on before you write comments. Boris has banned ICE and he's not forcing me to have an electric car. How does that work?
NOBODY IS LAUGHING NOW !
@@thisisnumber0 ICE isn't *banned* You will still be able to continue using the ICE car you have, until it becomes unviable. Even when there are no further examples of used ICE cars to buy, you *STILL* don't *have* to own an EV if you don't wish to. Hopefully that explains how it works........Most people seem to be able to grasp this.
So the government, or someone acting on their behalf, have the potential to turn down or OFF your electrical supply - glad we have trustworthy and moral leaders.
If you have a smart meter they already can !
@@davidgranger3628 That is one of the reasons I have avoided a smart meter. One other is that I remember family rows caused by the spinning disc meters. I can see the repeat of the. ‘Your the one using most most electricity’ rows.
@@davecooper3238 me to ,we do have a device that shows use though so the fights continue ,i foresee your usage at tea time be far more expensive as they can pin down the time with ease on the 'smart' meter ,its smart for them ofcourse only switching everything you own off will save you money these smart meters will ensure you pay more not less .If they become mandatory s Faraday shield will soon turn them dum again! Theres already talk of chargers refusing to charge at certain times so perhaps a full charge impossible in the time allotted as they also will be 'reporting' what your up to ,bring on those spinning meters life was less regulated back then
This is convincing me to stick with my mild hybrid .
What do you think they gave you a free smart meter for? It’s not for your benefit.
Feels like to me this has not been thought out properly so no charges at peak hour only off peak so everyone switching to charge at off peak Then off peak becoming a new peak demand
This is what happens happens when we have Numties running the country,an idiot could have foreseen that during period’s of high demand ie. winter conditions we cannot produce enough electricity to to meet demand,once again people are being conned into spending money on electric vehicles that are NOTHING more than expensive shopping trolleys. They want to ban gas boilers now to help the environment,another con that’s being forced upon us because of the Green Brigade who can’t see the wood from the trees. Poor people don’t stand a chance the way things are going with gas and electricity prices rising nearly every month as well as food prices up every time they shop,there’s very difficult times ahead which will lead to many people getting into dept and loose their homes,seen it all before during my lifetime.
EV cars are NOT GREEN!
Made using more fossil fuels than regular cars!
Estimated 70,000 miles usage for a EV car to balance it's carbon footprint!
Electric needed to charge ALL EV cars is made using fossil fuels!
1/3 of EV drivers change BACK to petrol/diesel!
Stick to petrol/diesel vehicles & don't fall for the 'climate' lies!
No a new peak as such, more like it balances the load throughout the day, which is the point.
The off peak demand will never exceed peak demand as it stands because industrial use plus consumer use is order of magnitude higher than off peak demand. The grid normally shuts down whole power stations off peak. If everyone in the country had an EV the diversity factor alone would mean than only a small percentage will need to charge their car every night so the demand will still be low in comparison.
@@putinthanus124 if demand goes up during off peak to balance the load so will the off peak tarrif to balance the profits. If demand goes up without the extra supply so does price.
They can’t even get smart meters to work correctly, so how will they do this?
They’ve enforced this behaviour by banning the sale of petrol and diesel cars. So why should the consumer take onus yet again on being forced into this? Ridiculous.
It's quite simple all of the chargers come with the ability schedule a charge. Consumers want this because of smart tarrifs. Eg. Octopus Go which you get reduced rates to charge your car between 0030 and 0430. Day rate 30p, night rate 7.5p.
So I really don't want 6be charging my car at any time other than that anyway. All that will be done is they'll put some software patch on scheduling that charge from the begginging.
To the user it's the same, arrive home at 1830, plug in, but instead of instantly starting to charge it just waits for the cheaper greener electricity.
My smart meter works grand mate, so no problems there. Yeah they messed up with gen 1,never mind.
This really is only a benefit to consumers. If I want to charge the car at peak times I can and will under the new rules, but it will cost me more anyway so not bothered unless it's crucial for some reason.
I only need to Charge once a week really anyway though so no biggie.
@@Lewis_Standing you can already schedule charging now. One of my customers does it.
What I don’t like is them enforcing it because of their mistake. Ban combustion vehicles but not realising the grid won’t take it. It’s dieselgate all over again.
The ban on selling ICE cars is a political decision which was made without proper consultation with Electricity generators / distributors.
I have a basic BP smart charger which came free with the car. Even that can schedule charge periods and vary the charge rate during each charge period (slow, medium, high) and that works OK. It doesn't matter when I plug the car in, it will only start charging at the next programmed charge period
I have solar, so if I had to pay for the charger I would have got a Zappi that varies the charge rate with any solar export to grid.
On a general point, it's a bit frustrating that, having invested in solar, I get nothing for any export and have to pay for anything I might import later in the day. A friend who had solar installed many years ago gets paid for what he generates, even if he uses it all himself - which he does !
@@gap9992 precisely my point. The market is all over the place and mostly due to poor understanding by the government. If they implemented a much better minimum rate for solar, more people would take it up.
@@yrification they knew EV were not sustainable for charging our grid can't handle it
Controlling the load instead of meeting demands seems like one step forwards in the wrong direction
No, it is the right direction. It makes no sense to charge an EV on peak hours
Why? Asda has signed up to a similar system where the grid can request what hours all their refrigeration plants run their defrost cycle at, meaning the grid can shed megawatts of load on demand. This is very similar to having a charge point with a CT around your mains incomer which limits the charge current depending on the overall draw at your property, just where that control's coming from further up the chain.
@@okaro6595 does it end at EV? How far will this extend into the future? Is this a temperate measure until we gain more energy independence (no thankyou to the initial problems of renewables)?
@@okaro6595 it's up to them to develop the grid to cope with demand or make it a lot cheaper to charge outwith peak load
@@fusebox4473 lots of smart home tech isn’t super useful - but I’d be happy to buy a connected washing machine/dishwasher etc that can vary when they turn on automatically in return for cheaper rates
" I'm happy to have my house controlled by somone else". No ill never be happy to let others have control over any of my life. This will end in ultimate governmental control...
Wake up people, it's not just your house/electricity that they want to control,...research the Great Reset if you really don't know by now.
Why do I feel like in a few years rather than upgrade the grid they'll make it mandatory to prevent charging at peak times?
what they will do is say you are allowed xx kwh and tough schi7 when you used it, unless you are gvt of course who can use all they want and the public won't do a damn thing about it......
@@ogasi1798 that's called energy rationing, and they've already been out denying it so you know they are working on it. Despite the fact the United Nations agendas have stated more than 20 years ago that they would make man the enemy of the planet (climate change) tick that off.
Rationing of all forms, food and energy is on the list. Funny how they have started to introduce scenarios where they have limited the numbers of items you can purchase, i.e hand sanitizer and toilet rolls. Our fault of course! Now they are introducing the concept of energy rationing. Won't be long until you start seeing the question in the news "should we be rationing fuel and energy"
Impossible for many reasons, the best they can do is encourage. Rare most would want to anyway, more expensive electricity and most people are at work.
Annoyingly the UK national grid is run as a private company. It should be anticipating the needs of its users and scale it's output to meet future demand. All the government should be doing is charging it with the responibility to meet it's legal commitments. It's top level commitment is to keep 50Hz at 50Hz within 1%. How it does that is its problem not ours.
@putinthanus124 impossible is a strong Wong. Many things done during covid were considered impossible before it.
Boiled frog syndrome.
Next thing your smart meter will ration your consumption.
It can already disconnected you... But it cannot limit ie throttle your supply..
It does enable power rationing along the lines of the rotating power cuts seen during the three day week.
@@bryanlatimer-davies1222 not Really.
The DNO cannot 'cut off' your individual supply without a court order. Using smart meters for rolling power 'cuts' is neither efficient or workable.
It would rely on 100% of consumers in the area being targeted to have smart meters and for them all to be operating. This is messy!
Right now you can achieve 100% power outage by switching off distribution at a central point.. ie a Power or a sub-station.
Smart meters have zero ability to throttle your consumption.
Any government that can make sitting on a park bench illegal, would not have any difficulty enacting "emergency" legislation to such ends, and could impose rationing by cutting supply to anyone who exceeds an arbitary consumption limit
@@bryanlatimer-davies1222 but that relies on everyone having a smart meter which they don't?
I can see over time, the so called "Off Peak" time disappearing all together as it would appear everyone will be charging pretty much at that same time?
But hopefully not for a very long time . Think of all the day time consumption of businesses , schools etc that only consume during the day .
That is a concern. I don't even have an EV but I do have a Tesla Powerwall, which as well as storing solar panel power, charges up with off-peak electricity. The figures for system payback time would be impacted if there was little or no off-peak discount.
I see this problem disappearing as batteries become cheaper. The energy companies will eventually start using battery packs as buffers for peak hours, and use idle hours to recharge them. That way, no need to invest in extra capacity and no need to ramp up or ramp down power plants throughout the day.
I'm pretty sure they will gladly buy your 70% degraded pack so they can use it specifically for this purpose.
Stuff like intelligent octopus is likely the way to go. Or Agile
You're failing to take into account increased usage. We've been decreasing energy usage for a long time through efficiency, but we're beginning to shift a lot more things to electric, while there'll be more off peak load, there'll also be more on-peak load. There'll still be a desire to incentivise load distribution.
You'll charge when we say you can charge!
You're really selling this EV thing to me....
Isn't this yet more proof that the national grid need to get their finger out and upgrade their infrastructure. I never see them improving or upgrading. They only install new when is fails or becomes dangerous.
They can upgrade the transmission infrastructure as much as they like, if there’s not sufficient generation capacity it all for nought, watch the lights go out this winter!
@GeeKIller that is totally untrue, refineries take their energy from oil and generally generate their own power form small turbines, though the UK is sadly lacking in refinery capacity today. As for subsidising electricity, in the UK we are paying massive subsidies to make wind and solar viable at the cost of reliable fossil and nuclear energy …
… all of which has nothing to do with generation capacity and reliability of supply in next few years.
Fantastic... Let's stifle the current system(petrol) and force electric cars, before we have sufficient power to run them.... Seems like an opportunity to charge more. What a shower of shit our govt is....
So I come home, plug it in, unforeseen event, get in car, no power. Great.
They'd better start breaking ground on nuclear reactors pretty bloody quickly lol
Or move to France 🇫🇷
Clearly no money for the elite to hoover up in nuclear power. Plus it takes more than 4 years to commission a new plant.
@@andyarnold7269 jeez
Theres a bidirectional power link between the UK and france
@@efixx half off Frances nuclear reactors are offline.
Morning. Sorry I'm gunna be 5 hours late for work this morning. Why ? Oh well I put the car on charge. But cause of the football. And the neighbors cooking. And the weather. The government stopped my car from charging.
Just the start. Wait until you ask your electric car if you can drive on Sunday and it says “Government says no...”
It's a good thing you don't live in France then, because I believe they've had a system for years which regulates the days some cars can't be driven. Something to do with odd and even numbers on licence plates or something......
@Brian-om2hh they scrapped it years ago. It was odd number plates on some days and even numbers on others. People just bought 2 cars...
What a great video - its great to hear clear and detailed explanations from someone who knows the subject inside out! Thx for arranging this!
@@andrewsundell2502 That’s true - we’ve all got a background and an agenda after all - but he seems to be someone who is just telling it like he thinks it is. I guess the thing is to try and find a number of these type of opinions and make your own mind up!
get rid of your smart meter, keep your diesel or petrol car. This is the begining and it will get worse. when the power lines come down after a storm and take weeks to repair, you even be able to get to the shops for food or get to work or school, no gas heating or backup geny.
From the very first day of EV ownership I have never plugged my car in at home expecting it to start charging immediately. I have always set my charging to start and finish when grid demand and cost to me is lowest. I can cope with this.
Exactly. I do the same. The UK grid has *huge* spare capacity during the night hours. It isn't possible to simply switch it off. You cannot do that with power stations. The electricity providers needed to create some demand during the night, which is why cheap rate electricity came about 50+ years ago.
Is this not to get EV owners to put in smart chargers so the government can use them to put duty on the electric used for vehicles to make up for lost revenue on petrol and diesel
Sadly most consumers (of energy not just EV users) are too selfish or ignorant to think like you and a small minority of those that work to such principles - they are happy to moan that prices are too high but want things there and now - if everyone was more considerate with their energy usage government probably wouldn't need to legislate. I always think of our household energy as a closed system when our PV is generating like in Star Trek when they have a finite amount of power on-board and have to divert power from engines to life-support until it balance - the whole UK needs to work in the same way - work with what we have not what we want!
@@Umski I am not convinced that most EV drivers are selfish or ignorant, where is your evidence for this statement.
@@waltermcphee3787 sorry I didn't mean specifically EV drivers, though as it becomes more common it will be no different to the fights at filling stations when there have been supply issues - I meant users of energy in general e.g. using tumble dryers when the sun's out (user behaviour is complicated but boils down to what individuals want and expect in my opinion, which is all this is)
Thanks
Thanks for the support Danny
The first company to include a huge diesel generator with every battery operated car will rake in the customers, Ha Ha Mugs.
When is this rubbish going to allow me to do 600 miles non stop and fully recharge at home in 8 hours? Maybe never, you say?
Throw in V2H as well so my car becomes an extension of my house. Pull from the battery at peak times for the house to avoid grid use, charge with solar or off peak
That's what I do with my campervan. It has a 7kWh leisure battery and powers the house in the day.
The tax revenue from petrol/diesel will just be transferred to electricity bills and we'll all end up paying for it regardless of owning a EV. The new legislation it seems is basically a tap that can be turned off at a whim.
Exactly. Anyone who thinks the UK government will let the British public save any money by using electric cars is a fool. They, and the energy suppliers, will make sure we pay the same amount to run electric cars as we do now to run petrol.
Exactly, the only way this works in a fool proof way is to be totally off grid
@@Felix-rising That won't help you once Road Tolls arrive, because we'll be taxed on actual road *usage* irrespective of how your car is fuelled.
No, it won't be transferred to electricity bills. The lost and diminishing tax revenue from reducing sales volumes of petrol and diesel will be replaced by a system of Road Tolls - a pay per mile scheme. The tax burden will move from fuel to actual road *usage*
I think controlling when and where we travel is the bigger plan for government. Very few vehicles ,in the scheme of things, are electric at the moment so there is no possibility in the near future of the grid coping with the need for energy. if everyone with electric vehicles charge at off peak times that will no longer be an off peak period.
Well that was the beginning of Hitler's new world order and isn't that what the UN wants to implement!
Exactly, they were speaking about killing all the Tesla in Russia as part of the sanction.
Remember when the government said buy a diesel car, better for the environment.
It's all about control they can't remotely shut down older petrol cars, only the newest cars.
Nice to see most of the EU going back to coal now they can't get gas...........
But, but, but Greta says we only have 10 years to save the planet."How dare you!" 🤣
But if this was the "plan" then they could implement it now by restricting the amount of electricity to oil refineries and petrol stations. Why would they specifically need to wait for mass EV take-up?
As a shift worker I could do with a feature where I can tell my charging system that I need the car ready at say 01:00 in order to drive to work. So long as it is charged by then it won't matter to me. It would be sensible if the car was kept at least partially charged, maybe 50%, in the event that the vehicle is required unexpectedly. I have no problem being regulated so long as it works with me.
Agreed. This plan doesn't take shift workers into account.
This feature is available with some of the smart charging Apps, even as far as the app and car communicating how much charge is required to achieve an amount of miles by a certain time period.
Yup, the regulations set the default factory timings, and everyone is free to change them to whatever they so wish.
This is already in place for a number of chargers. For example mine is scheduled to always be ready at 7am during the week, it then communicates with the grid and charges based on grid usage to avoid adding to peak usage. I can also add details of timed tariffs so it will prioritise cost if I wish.
I don’t know if it’s still available but Octopus Energy did have a tariff called Go Faster where you could pick a 4 or 5 hour off peak rate period, think it was between 21.00 and 06,00 so it would be ideal for your working pattern. Also you could consider home battery storage but this would be an expensive option.
Ultimately, we are going to need a lot more chargers, and the mains cabling to go with them.
At my local Tesco, there are 16 petrol pumps and 4 car chargers. Any time I go, the 4 chargers are all in use, and the 16 petrol pumps are all in use. For the petrol pumps that isn't an issue, because there's never more than a few minutes wait for one to become available, but as electric charging takes a lot longer, waiting for one isn't really practical.
Basically, every parking space needs to have a charger.
..and every Tesco will need a 33kV grid connection … it’s not going to happen any time soon!
Where does the power come from to recharge? Nuclear? Coal? Gas? Solar battery?
Looks like Nanna will have to turn off her heater/AC so grandkids can recharge their cars for next day?
This whole EV thing is beginning to sound far more trouble than it's worth.
You've obviously had bananas in your ears for a while
I've had not a moment's "trouble" in over three years. I plug my EV in when I get home, and the timer in the car begins the charge at 11.30 pm, when my off-peak rate kicks in. It also knocks the charge off 6 hours later once the off-peak rate ends. The car charges while I sleep, and so has zero effect on my life. I do this every 8 to 9 days. I reckon I've saved over £5k by no longer buying petrol. It's you who has the trouble and inconvenience of *having* to drive to a petrol station. I charge on my drive.
This is only really addressing the home charger; need to address both low power street/car park charging which gives 'charge as you park', and maybe also pay for parking, and higher power chargers for fast charging by, say, visitors, or someone who can't leave the car stopped for an extended period. At the moment some users of faster chargers are also getting hit for parking charges or fines because they're in a car park, or supermarket which restricts or limits access (imagine paying to access the fuel pumps). Also need to get rid of the plethora of apps and/or RFID cards for public chargers. Home charging works; it's public chargers which are the problem.
I think maybe street lights could be modified for low power top up charging. Would be much cheaper than installing lots of new under ground cabling for seperate chargers
@@adrianthoroughgood1191 Some street lights are modified for that in London. Low power, but then the infrastructure has to support the potential future load. They're single-phase, so a max of 7kW. BUT, there are too many suppliers with too many apps, and some need a subscription. And you still pay for parking, except overnight. Obviously residents get parking (at a price), although some residents aren't allowed parking in some new developments.
It doesn't really help the visitor unless there's a nearby hub (which is likely in London). Other areas, e.g. the West Country put chargers in car parks and charge for parking, and supermarkets with low-power chargers don't allow overnight parking, just 'grazing' whilst shopping.
@@CW-om2qq More standardisation would be a great benefit. There should be a sigle account / card to use them all, even if they are operated by different companies. I don't know why they don't just accept payment from a contact less payment card without the extra messing about. Shops, busses, the tube etc can.
@@adrianthoroughgood1191 There's talk of future standardisation to CC/debit card, but 'clubs' with a subscription still likely to exist. It's because you can make money that way. We're patching on chargers at the moment, but not really thinking ahead (as in too many things). There will still be the congestion problem with EVs, but you're still likely to need personal transport. Some habitation will forever be remote. Need to be able to generate and distribute the electricity, and cope with surges whilst ensuring security of supply. We're in a transition stage at the moment so mistakes will be made, but they need to be abandoned quickly, or killed off in review before implementation. 'Apps' sounded a good idea to the young designers looking at cities, but practically they aren't.
Great. We are near electricity capacity so let's reduce oil production and require more EVs be manufactured. What can go wrong?
Climate lockdowns work great.
We're going to need the generation and distribution "copper in the ground" capacity eventually anyway, so why not start building it now? The longer we wait and try to patch the current system with stuff like DSR the more expensive the proper long-term solutions will get.
DNOs (or DSOs as they are renaming) predict over 50% of power generation will be at a local level by 2050 - so the question is where to put the copper.
Maybe not, the car charging loads don't necessarily have to be greater than what happens during the evening peak (cooking) of course if we are serious about moving home heating to electricity to then we need upgrade for that.
@@efixx how are they going to do that then ?? So having to produce more at local level would mean building thousands of local power generation plants. I myself think it's all pie in the sky and I work for a DNO(DSO).
oh and if you live in a town with lots of terraced streets hoe are you going to charge every car in that street 'at certain times' without every house having cables running acoss footpaths or having a dedicated charging pole outside each houses car parking spot ?
This 'green ' nonsense has to stop or soon it'll be the sole privilege of the rich that can have vehicles and be able to travel. Even pwer engineers all agree the distribution (not transmission) networks will not be able to be installed fast enough (years and years behind to install larger csa' cables) to feed every street road and town/village. Transmission maybe, distribution not a chance. !
Long term solutions are not part of governments abilities. No governments see beyond the end of their noses
People are gonna have to start moving to three phase power for the home.
I will never allow the grid to take power out of my car unless it compensate me for the reduced life I will see as a result of increased charge/discharge cycles. It could easily halve the useful life of a car battery depending on rate, time and frequency. Nope... not happening.
The grid can't just "take" power from your car. You have to be signed up to a vehicle to grid (V2G) scheme first, and you would decide your own "low waterline" level. And it already *is* happening in Britain, with 2 V2G schemes operating here already. One in the North East, and a further one in Bedfordshire......
@@Brian-om2hh I never said they could just take it and my current car and charger won't support it so it's not a problem right now. My point was that I personally will never let them take it or have it as it's unlikely any replacement of energy will compensate for the wear and tear on a battery discharge/charge cycle. If for example my batteries life was halved would the compensation cover the early replacement of the battery or car? Nope.
Goverment Forcing EVs knowing the grid is weak, is a joke..?
As a- recent Tesla Y owner and avid follower of your channel this was ex tremely interesting. I've got a Tesla Gen 3 wall connector (and thanks to you) an O-Pen fault device.With this setup the charging times are setup in the car app. Unfortunately a fiddly process as I'm on E10 and so far Tesla haven't created stored UK time schedules. Having said that, at Ieast the Tesla software does work out the start time based on adjustable amperage and required completion time thus creating a degree of randomness.
In my country of birth (NZ) electric hot water heating was controlled according to grid load by what was called "ripple control" -well before the invention of the Internet! A signal was superimposed on the normal frequency controlling everyone's hot water heating (we didn't have gas water heating then)~ as far as I'm aware this was very reliable.
Ripple control - like it
A system of automatically adjusting water heating load is being trialled in the UK based on the principle that when the grid is overloaded the frequency reduces and when it's underloaded it increases. So the heater just has to monitor the frequency and adjust accordingly. Helps to stabilise the grid and you get discounted electricity.
My Tesla MS has scheduled charging on the car, don't need third party's apps.
sounds like, if you have been a bad boy and government did not like your Facebook post, that your car wont get charged, so stopping you from traveling. don't let anyone decide when your car gets charged, better still buy a diesel and forget this years fad
A simple random delay of connection of up to 10 mins at peak times might assist the **generators** of electricity but it essentially does nothing to address any limitations of the existing LV networks, which could be a great deal more significant in their influence on when customers can and cannot connect their EV for charging. That needs a whole other level of "smart".
My energy supplier (Octopus) can already "talk" to my car and my charger to control charging time and rate. The only thing missing is the capability to feed back from the car to my house/the grid.
@@johnmckay1423 that's a great feature to have to allow your supplier to control your charger but they have no way of knowing how 'stressed' or otherwise your local network is when they connect the charger. There is no feedback mechanism from the LV network to suppliers and even if there was, who decides which chargers get connected and when and at what charge rate? Lots of variables in this equation!
@@protectiongeek Question from point of ignorance: I'd assumed the live data from my smart meter was available to them and my understanding was that with Smets2 it was a national database, so DNOs could also access it. Is that not the case?
If not, that would seem easier to sort than putting unnecessary copper in the ground. (I'm not saying no infrastructure is needed, only that it should be minimised.)
At the minute I assume it's based on historic data; Octopus choose their charging period based on the dynamic pricing which is set one day ahead. I know they feed in weather forecasts as well as history.
@@johnmckay1423 Answer from a point of limited knowledge re smart metering - I'm a retired DNO engineer not completely _au fait_ with the SMETS2 standard as it wasn't in my day-to-day remit.
Firstly, I don't think the uplink data is 'live' and even if it was, it couldn't be relied upon to aggregate the load on any particular LV main cable, simply because not everyone supplied by that cable will have a smart meter or smart charger/tariff.
From the point of view of data protection, your specific data could not be shared with the DNO without some fairly complex agreements. I suppose aggregate data **could** be shared but there are lots of holes in that data (lots of customers without smart metering). The half-hourly data from Industrial and commercial metering is not uploaded in real time but batched and sent to the supplier but NOT the DNO. Many years ago, if I was designing a new connection to an LV network, I could log in and look at I&C customer data like maximum real and reactive demand, etc but that facility went a looong time ago.
DNOs _could_ potentially install SCADA-based equipment in secondary distribution substations to monitor individual LV main feeder loads. The amount of data collected every second from existing systems monitoring the high-voltage and Grid networks is huge - adding LV network data would be an enormous undertaking but not impossible.
There's still an issue of analysing the data, however when looking at the load on a particular feeder. It's likely to be supplying different types of customer - domestic, light industrial, heavy industrial and commercial. The load 'behaviours' of a lot of such customers can be modelled - that's partly what informs network design to an extent - but even if you could do this, who/what decides which chargers get connected and at what charge rate? It's not easy to come up with an objective set of rules to do this. I know there's a number of charger manufacturers looking at this as well as the DNOs. It's a tricky problem to solve and I suspect more than a little AI will be involved.
And then there's the growth of heat pumps!....
I probably sound pretty cynical about this - I am to and extent as I've witnessed 'smart' solutions being trialled in the past by people who know a lot about technology and theory but haven't thought through the practicalities of how, exactly, their solutions will work when presented with multiple, equally valid demands. I am genuinely interested in what the _functioning_ solutions turn out to be, if for no other reason than I hope to change my car to an EV soon!
I enjoyed this eFIXX video, like all others but the idea of 100 chargers daisy-chained off a 63A breaker seems a bit of a challenge. OK the 100 number was just an illustration but even so, the expectations of the EV owners/operators connecting to such a daisy-chain might be difficult to manage if they're sharing a single source breaker. Also, the supply cable termination looked lovely and neat, as you would expect but I can't help but wonder just what the in-and-out cable arrangement would look like.
Sorry for the long-winded reply!
@@protectiongeek Long reply appreciated👍
Maybe it's because my background is data analysis and IT system design (I think the saying goes along the the line "if the only told in your box is a hammer, then a hammer is what you'll use) I think the key will be the negotiation/balancing. Average daily distance travelled per car in the UK is under 20 miles/day. Most EVs travel 3 miles/kWh and the better ones do 4. Therefore most EV users will need between 5 and 7kWh over a 12 hour period. In terms of the range people think they need and the electricity demand required, most people completely overestimate their requirements. I fell into that trap too before I had an EV; we're fortunate to have a 3 phase supply and I was convinced I'd need 3 phase chargers once we had 2 cars but I couldn't persuade the supplier to fit one. It would have been completely unnecessary. I'm pleased we've got a 3 phase supply as I know I don't need to worry, but the cars never charge at the same time we run the heat pump and demand on the house could easily be balanced. ASHP plus oven plus kettle plus microwave would be a stretch, but the ASHP could easily be switched off or turned down for an hour while I cook dinner.
You could do a lot of load balancing with home batteries, but once my second EV arrives next month I'll have 130kWh battery sitting on the drive. It makes much more sense to use the resource I already have. If I'm driving the electricity gets used for that. On the days I work at home, there's enough storage in the battery to run my ASHP.
Definitely sounds like the systems aren't here yet.
Oh my who would have thought that ev would put a strain on the power grid
Another great video with sensible questions, answered by an expert in the field.
As a Tesla and a PHEV Mitsubishi owner who also has all of the current Myenergi products as well as Solar PV and 11.6 KWh Battery Storage with a 5 kW inverter, I’m really excited for the future of renewable energy and as I have recently retired (ironically I was the manager of an offshore Oil and Gas installation), I’m trying to reduce my monthly outgoings as well as my impact on the environment.
I hope the government also look at improving the minimum standards of insulation in all new builds to reduce energy demand throughout the year.
So now everyone,get your shares in candle factories bought because the way things are going that’s what we all will be back to.
Brilliant video , so well explained 👏 im passing on to my customers 😀 😊
So what’s to be done with regards accommodating those who have a solar array and home battery storage that are mostly self sufficient? So even the person might have invested in the above why are they forced to link into the internet. Are we saying they cannot have a charge point on UK land that is stand alone? What about existing charge points that are not internet connected are they to be forced to be? The more and more I hear about the infrastructure issues and regulation changes the more I think that it either has to go one of two ways: hydrogen energy (or other more environmentally better alternative) with electric drive train in which case the development of the electric car hasn’t been a complete waste as we’re only taking about where the energy is coming from. Or The government subsidise independent consumer and company infrastructure as in localised solar generation with battery storage to kind of act as a capacitor or buffer to the grid. Of course then you get into the more complicated situations where people are taking Energy while charging at work home to run the kettle. Let’s face it battery technology is over 100 years old, and they are not the long term solution to save the planet when it comes to running a car. My thinking is that if we are to make such a big step change and effort to do the right thing why are batteries even considered as a power source. I would not be surprised if this tech in 15-20 years is dropped for something else. And then everything that was done now was a waste of time. Meaning also it would have been better for the environment to stay as we are until the power cell for the electric drivetrain has been perfected (for example hydrogen or other). And of course those who resisted the forced change won’t get any compensation for the period of time they did use alternatives due to the additional stealth tax they have paid through fuel or road tax so on. More than likely the people that were actually helping the environment spending their own money to do so for investing in the systems mentioned above also happened to have a garden full of trees that actually offset running their ice car if they had one (because they enjoy driving). Such a fair system we have. So before we all high five each other on how genius we are lets spare a consideration to the potential nonsense of it all.
Sounds similar to the logic used to not upgrade the telecom infrastructure in the 90's... and now look at everyone clambering to put lightpipes in the ground.
Can only patch the system so much before someone has to make the call to upgrade.
Government: “Everyone must buy electric cars or we’re all gonna die!”
Also Government: “So… That $$$$$$$$$$$ we told you to spend on the electric car? We’re just gonna make that a useless paperweight now.”
Exactly, once the majority have EV's charging will be linked to your social credit score so Government can control if you can use it or not
@@terrynicholson9273 I don't think people realise how easy it will be for Govt to stop them travelling - either by a kill-switch in the EV itself, or lack of 'working' recharging points.
@@nolajacob5306 Oh, I do.
Excellent video. Thanks for the heads-up. I suppose the regulations completely ignore home battery/solar/off grid/ev to grid users who actually help/completely fix the problem.
Really useful information - thanks for the heads up!
In Belgium from July onwards we get taxed on peak useage. It gets meassured by the quarter hour and averaged over the year. Obviously only possible on the new digital meters we get installed everywhere in rapid fashion.
Interesting move - only large industrial supplies in the UK have peak demand charges.
Which is why so called Smart Meters are a dumb reality for sensible people. Dumb meters can't compensate for power factor, nor can they charge for peak periods. Again, go figure. I am not going to pay multi national corporations ( by way of subsidy ) to tell me how to pay their wages. It is an absolute undemocratic outrage that the poorest in society are commanded to pay and guarantee the security and wealth of the rich. And I'm not even a socialist.
But what happens if you need to charge in peak times, This doesn't seem like it's been thought through properly.
@Newnew Mee Some people like this comment do talk BS and peddle stupid conspiracy theories
Very interesting, I wonder how long before all EV charging points are completely synced together via some kind of cloud based power sharing infrastructure with bi directional charging/discharging to help balance the grid?
It’s on the way
Giving a lot of "power" to big brother.
Err what happens when the server goes down?
@@zenbudhism just deactivate CT clamp and override the charge schedule and use manual mode?
@@timahad5165 untill there is no manual mode :(
In a few years the government will be able to tell you when you can drive and when you can't better of staying with your diesel r petrol cars
Although the government could do exactly the same with petrol and diesel cars if they wished, by rationing the availability of fuel. Why might they have to wait for mass EV take-up to do it?
Charge points must also:
incorporate pre-set, off peak, default charging hours and allow the owner to accept, remove or change these upon first use and subsequently
allow for a randomised delay function
A full outline of device-level requirements can be found in the regulations.
Thanks -we’ve left a link in the description.
… and why do you think ‘off peak’ energy will still exist in the rapidly changing generation business?
@@andyxox4168 soon it will be too many people are charging in off peak hours so we are getting rid of the off peak tariff.
@@sined726 no! Offpeak electricity is created by keeping thermal power plant running overnight to minimise startup time and reduce costs associated with startup/shutdowns. Renewables when they run have no such startup requirements. And with increasing solar forcing extensive and expensive storage evening and nighttime electricity will be more expensive to produce!
@@andyxox4168 hence they will get rid of the off peak tariff because its more expensive to produce.
Say your reduced tariff period is 4hrs.
If your car takes
Like the thinking 🧐
That is a really good point. Sometimes I just need a couple of hour top up to 100% for a long journey the next day. Perhaps we all just have to accept that our 4 hour window is going to reduce for the greater good and live with it 🤷♂️
@@daveforrester61 baaaaaaaa baaaaaaaa
Some management is needed, you can't have thousands of cars all starting charging automatically when a cheap tariff starts, this all seems reasonable as long as your pricing (kwh) is at a reduced rate.
Exactly this is where pricing will manage demand. Give people a carrot and they'll change their behaviour automatically.
You're correct, of course, that management is needed. Just think of all the off-peak space heating loads that used connect every night over a **very** short span of time. The need to manage these (almost) step-loads inspired the development of radio-teleswitching to break the load connection into manageable 'chunks'.
@@protectiongeek BTW, electric heating is a resistive load, so it already automatically responds to grid load. When the load on the grid rises over supply, the voltage drops. A resistive load's energy consumption is a directly proportionate to the voltage. If you've ever seen lightbulbs getting dimmer when some big load like an oven or a boiler switches on, that's exactly that---less voltage causing the bulb to use less energy and produce less light.
Sadly, electronic devices and battery chargers are not resistive loads...
@@HenryLoenwind not entirely sure how the fact that electric heating is resistive helps generators deal with the 'sudden' application of 100s of MW of load over a period of around 10 minutes.
Application of load does cause the local voltage to drop but the voltage envelope is regulated by statute in the UK and _should_ remain within the -6% to +10% of the nominal 230/400V supply voltage. Consequently, the design of LV and MV networks takes this into account in the specification of distribution transformers and the operation of automatic voltage control systems at primary substations.
Non-linear loads, such as EV chargers, will present issues in addition to the applied load, such as harmonic distortion.
Wow no way I can accept this control. I as a user need that control.
Go off grid then.
Don't buy an ev then
You are being controlled already, by being tied to petrol stations and the oil industry. You just hadn't realised it...
@Brian-om2hh lol where do you get this buddy. Are you well.
Shortsighted people who push plans thru before proving they will work in large capacity always make the average person bear the burden of their failure . Wind and solar being a classic example . Immigration another in the fact ,not enough housing ,hospitals ,schools welfare and the cost blow outs .
As usual uk plc gives u discounts to buy ev's then limits the Electric to power them,you can't make it up.i will stay with my wee clio that does about 67mpg thanks.
I was surprised that the conversation didn’t extend to using Electric Vehicles stored electricity to support the Network at periods of peak demand, as an alternative to switching on additional “Power Stations” / “Generators”. So EV customers could choose to sell back to the grid at peak periods and then replenish their EVs during cheap periods!!
It’s in the mix but still quite a few challenges to solve. Eg charge at work and sell power at home!
It's all a bit theoretical at the moment, who warranty's the battery for such use?
If I had an EV, I would be concerned about the effect on battery life, due to more charge cycles, if the car frequently exported energy
@@edc1569 Batteries in cars are specified for massive discharge and recharge rates (accelerating a 2 ton lump of metal, ultra fast charging and regenerative braking). Household use is trivial load compared to that and will cause far less wear than normal use for driving. Probably measurable impact on battery wear, but not significant in relation to life cycle of car.
Does CCS alow this yet ? Only ten years behind chademo
It was an interesting discussion, but around 6 mins in, it reminded me that the concept of “interruptible supply” in exchange for agreed tariff rates goes back a long way; nothing new in that. It is the structure of the industry that is new, compared with the times when most generation was from coal, and some of it nuclear via relatively large individual sources - power stations.
What is not mentioned is how the idea of demand management could work in a system in which there can be several utility supply companies operating on the same local grid, operated by the District Network Operator (DNO), which in some places is not involved in supply contracts with any consumers (e.g. SSE, which sold part of it’s business off to another firm).
However, whatever the bureaucratic position is, the current version of BS7671 already says that “Load curtailment, including load reduction or disconnection, either automatically or manual, may be taken into account when determining maximum demand of the installation or part thereof”. It’s long been the norm to do sums based on “load diversity” to avoid installing unnecessarily large buried cable, local transformers, etc, but it appears that there is an assumption that diversity is not applicable to car battery chargers, whereas it is OK for other domestic appliances. E.g. where I live, there are at least 30 houses fed by a buried 3 core cable rated at 355A @400V (quite a new one, installed in 2021).
The EV car will have a huge battery say 500 miles or 100kwh but the
Daily drive is 40miles or 7kwh.
The home will need 5kwh over night
So 100 - 7 - 5 = 88 kwh to trade with the grid.
The EV car should be automatically plugged into the grid 24/7, except for rush hour.
240volt slow charging or discharging from the grid 24/7.
The money is in the grid.
The power supply will be from dispersed supply, all the homes with rooftop solar 😄
The concentrated power will be from the power stations as required.
Grid stability will be from the millions of EV car's batteries.
The automatic plug in gizmo in shopping centre, work carparks, homes, etc.
The automatic plug in gizmo is the killer invention.
Petroleum will be a strategic military reserve.
I'll stay with petrol thanks , I don't want the government controlling when I can and can't get the power to my car , if too much power is taken up by car charging they will use that excuse to limit your power to charger to stop you
But the government could control when you could obtain petrol if it wished, so what's the difference?
Generally don’t mind this - but I’m on intelligent octopus which lets octopus control when my car charges overnight and I just tell it what % I need and by when. It’s similar to my phone whihc I plug in to charge overnight but it stops itself charging fully until closer to when I wake up to save the battery health. It makes no difference to me as I get up and it’s ready.
That would be a much better strategy overall but not all firms work like octopus.
So for many years we have had off peak power avalable. All controled by time clocks . Turning on storage heating and all manner of of peak loads. And the grid have been able to anticipate. This sudden increase in load . But now we need a variable delay. Realy.
As for the rest of the content I would be surprised if ppl don’t understand about charging and when best to charge depending on there tariff . Though I do know some who have a fixed tariff and will charge at any time. So is. This a hint. That the off peak tariff is going to be. Lost to the past
These networks seem like soft targets for foreign governments, handy if you can wipe out the UK grid by triggering all the cars to start charging in the same second. An EV charger suppliers infrastructure is going to be a pretty soft target.
Cars initiate charge, not “chargers”. The charger is actually in the car. What you would call a “charger” on the wall is just an access point. You would have to simultaneously access the software of every single car in the country to pull that off.
In Australia - we've got lots of solar here - so storage is being discussed at-length for EV charging. Everyone will have fairly large battery systems and we can dump power into the cars when we get home.
It’s great to have loads of sun ☀️
Can't get enough batteries for cars, don't know where they're coming from for storage. Demand for EV in UK would use current world production, when ice ban comes in 7 years.
Australia is also addicted to coal powered electricity generation as well as exporting your 'black gold' for others to use to pollute the planet. Given all the sun Australia should be at the top of the renewables table but it's way down.
How much do the battery s cost
It would be more sensible to mandate that all car parking should have charging available and charge your car during the day when spare electricity is available rather than having to have loads more batteries to time shift it.
Sounds great in principle but reality is supply must always meet demand otherwise ultimately it would limit potential. Policy change will come when Gov realises other countries will continue with proven trend of increasing supply and the UK will be left behind living with rolling blackouts.
The flip side of this is at certain times we have too much renewable energy. So being able to move excess power in to car batteries is a better alternative than paying to limit generation.
The whole of the UK is not the issue... Scotland produces lots of power.. while in England NIMBYs stop new wind turbines, Neuks etc... All well and good but only up to the point where you need to buy in power from other sources...🤔👍
@@G-Cam1 seems like you missed the news regarding nuclear 👍🏼 and don’t say they’re years away as 100% EV ownership is also years away. The UK will have to find a way to compete globally at the end of the day 🤷🏼♂️
Yes supply needs to meet demand, but we can be clever with car charging, you don't need the car charged until the morning, and you can pay a reduced rate to charge it, everyone wins.
@@casualsmartie1942 my two best mates are in the Neuk industry. Its been classed as 'not a vote winner' by consecutive government's. This situation was fully predicted. One of them was even seconded as a government advisor some 15 years ago! Some 'potential sites' have ben in consultation for almost 30 years!! The irony is that we now consume less energy as the heavy industry sector's have declined.. The latest news on neuks is great but its going to take 10 years minimum to generate a single kW.. Even with the Rolls Royce 'neighbourhood' plants we have no chance unless the NIMBYs are told to shut up and complain about something else. We need action now.
I understood the radio controlled Economy 7 time switch already had 10 minutes random time delay built it to protect grid when the storage heaters clicked in
A question that floats around my head about charging EVs... It takes approximately 30 mins on a fast charge ( so I am told) How will people manage regards charging on the way to work or long journeys via motorway and fuel court charging stations.
Example... Driver can't for whatever reason charge his car one evening so has to stop off at the petrol station and charge there
There's 3 people in the que before him all taking approx 30 mins each to charge their car.
That equates to 2 hours before his car is charged.
How many bosses are going to be understanding of staff being 2 hours late for work due to a que at the petrol station.
How many People are going to sit in their cars for endless time in the freezing winter months.
Has anyone thought about these issues?
I'm told there's not enough charging points out there as it is and the infrastructure is poorly designed.
Well most EVs have heaters. So that's not a problem.
I'd have thought a boss wouldn't be understanding unless there was good reason you couldn't charge as it would be bad planing.
30 mins is also the 80 percent charge level and it's unlikely you will need that much to get to work.
It's also much easier to install chargers than petrol pumps. A typical Tesla station has twice as meny points as a petrol station and that's just for one car brand.
@@njipods But the heater is worked off the battery and the car is getting low on power! 🙄🙄🙄🙄
@@Bonzman will still run for hours even when almost flat
@@njipods I don't have an EV Josh, but have had years of experience with batteries. I find it very difficult to believe that you can run a high drain item like a car heater for hours on a nearly flat battery. Can you provide proof please.
Thank you.
David
Nope they haven't thought of these problems which is why ev will never work as we have known for 100yrs+. Just a way to cadge money out of idiots
Surely where this is all going is a domestic device that manages any local microgeneration, home storage and domestic loads dynamically so that demand on the grid is minimised and when you do need to pull current (or gas), you do so at a time of lowest price.
It would cost me roughly £21 to fully charge my EV at peak time vs. £4.50 on Offpeak. If that isn't enough encouragement for people to charge outside the peak hours I don't know what is....
Sure, but you still don't want thousands of cars to start charging at 01:30 exactly.
@@edc1569 yeah I agree.
@@edc1569 So that all cheaper energy at "offpeak hours" doesn't make much sense does it. The ultimate solution to the problem would be to scratch fixed hours for cheaper/costlier energy and to let the power company regulate when your car is charging and at what speed for the lower cost or you have the option to override and pay higher cost.
And after all that you go offgrid and make your own system because of all that BS :D
@@edc1569 The network can learn to adapt to this in the same way it did for TV pickups.
They can't make smart meters work properly north of Birmingham, so I have to pay a flat rate and consequently plug it in when it's most convenient to me. The bonus that it costs EON double what I actually pay when I do this makes me feel better.
So basically,
You buy the car and battery
You buy the charger
You pay the electricity bill
But through regulations they own everything…. I can see why they are exited!!
The charging protocol is entirely public, just build your own charger if you’re that worried
Charging based upon a price limit and dynamic electricity pricing would enable automatic charging. If you need immediate charging, it can confirm the increased price with the user. Better to have auto bidding and cost limits to control timing.
Octopus already have this in public trials. I've signed up to their tariff which allows them to control when my car charges - subject to my parameters. They guarantee 6 hours of cheap tariff (2 hours longer than their standard EV charging tariff). I plug in anytime after 5 pm and set what percentage I want my car charged to by the time I leave for work. They will charge at whatever time and rate is cheapest for them. No change to my previous routine; previously I plugged in when I got home and set the car to start charging at the beginning of economy 7 period. The charger I have had a software update a year after it was installed to give the option of programming the charging schedule on that.
Maybe if the infrastructure had been upgraded over the years like it should hqve been rather than pumping money into share hold pockets we wouldn't have 130 old plus lead 4mm equivalent conductors feeding homes. If you applied BS7671 to the supply network the test sheet would be endless with the defects.......
How does this effect shift workers being able to charge at home economically?
In no way at all.
Let me break that down:
The regulation has 2 points that are visible to the user: (1) Out of the box the charger will come with a charging schedule configured at the factory. You are free to change that schedule to whatever you like. (2) Any time the charging is supposed to start there will be a random delay of 0...10 minutes. That you won't be able to change.
The average EV needs less than 1 hour of charging per day. This distributes over the year a bit lumpy, e.g. many people don't drive on Sundays, so they need more on weekdays; on the other hand, on long-distance trips fast chargers are used, not home charging; some people drive twice the average, some drive half. But for the majority of people less than 2 hours every night is more than enough. Many people could do with one full charge on the weekend and no charging on weekdays at all. Or maybe a 2-hour boost on Thursdays.
So you are free to schedule your 7 hours a week freely as you need. But if you regularly work 10pm-7am and commute 50 miles a day, you better not select a tariff that only has cheap electricity from 1am-6am. But that has nothing to do with these regulations...
Octpus has tariffs with cheap rate blocks during the day as well.
Shouldn't it be the grid signalling when to use the power rather than basing loads on time windows
So let's get this straight... I myself don't drive so I don't own a car and live alone. The electricity company will be able to shut down the electric supply ( brownout) in my area to cope with more needed supply elsewhere.
How is that fair?
Also am I going to be pushed into the variable tariff for using electric?
Again how is that fair?
No - this regulation just affects EV charge points. Regular electrical supplies will not be interrupted. Brownouts are something entirely different.
@@efixx
Oh that's a relief. Thank you for clearing that up for me. The more comments I read the more confused I got.
@@efixx In which case I'd just charge my car up using the socket the TV was plugged into, after I've gone to bed. They wouldn't know whether I stayed up all night watching films or charged a car up.
@@Brian-om2hh Or you could just configure a schedule according to your needs.
I'm shocked they don't have to sell different alarm clocks with every possible alarm time people need. It seems to be completely unreasonable to expect the user to set their own alarm time...
I would suggest they are already messing with smart meters.
My smart meter says my home is using, lets say 500W in the morning as I leave for work, When I come home from work at 16:30 is is still using the same power, as the time approaches 17:00 with no changes, nothing turned on or off. it is using 750W sits there until about 18:00 at which point it would start to drop back to the 500W.
TIMES ARE NOT EXACT AND FOR EXAMPLE ONLY.
Nothing has changed in the home, and I have tested this while the fridge was turned off which is the only thing I have that is constantly plugged in and fluctuates it's consumption.
My thoughts are, people are arriving home and tend to start turning things on so using power, the supplier use it as a prime opportunity to falsely register extra power being used so they can gain extra money and nobody would notice.
Great video about all the laws and regulations which all makes sense, we as a company are just getting setup to offer installations for car chargers as registered NICEIC installers... we have registered with OZEV and DNO for submissions etc. What is really happening is people are buying chargers, home owners and sparkles running out a cable complete set up and job done... no regulation/notification most of them are unaware of what is actually required and why and have no idea about the dangers due to lack of government information,. All chargers should be sold to registered approved installers problem solved. Think there will be loads of problems with unregistered installations like hundreds of them all over the country ....
Not a surprise.. the network is so old and hasn't had any decent investment at years, new builds going up all over the place here, it's fairly common to see a phase go down every so often .. good interesting video
Why is a 7kw charger such an issue. I have storage heaters and an immersion water heater that between then use more than that, and they are switched on by a fairly old electricity meter that has 2 live outputs. (There are 2 fuse boxes in the house - 1 is 24 hours, the other is economy 7)
Your old electricity meter already has a deliberately incorrect version of the time, to avoid the issue of everything turning on at the same moment - your solution is an older version of whats being discussed here.
@@edc1569 Except that the Tariffs for EV charging are lower than for Economy 7 use - very unfair.
Just connect the chargers to eco7 for 1\10 the cost and 10x the lifetime
3 reasons:
1) Your heater doesn't switch on at exactly 1am +/-0.01s in sync with tens of thousands other heaters all over the country. It switches on either when your supplier puts the signal onto your local network segment or when the meter's inaccurate analog clock says so.
2) Resistive loads like heaters automatically use less energy when the line voltage goes down, which it automatically does when the network load exceeds supply. (Ever seen a lightbulb dimming when some big load switches on?) Electronic loads don't do that.
3) Storage heaters are fixed installations and very predictable, they switch on every day at the same time. Cars are not that predictable, they need to be plugged in and don't need a charge every day. (An average EV needs about 1 hour of charge each day and holds about 7 days worth of energy in its battery.) Combined with number one this gives a very sudden random demand spike every quarter hour (and a bigger one on the full hour); people don't set timers to random minutes within the hour.
In addition, if everyone were to run their electric heater when they get home in the evening, in the middle of the normal demand spike, that would be an issue for the grid, too. That's why storage heaters were invented in the first place...
Having read a lot of comments I'm surprised that none of them made anything of the environmental harm caused to obtain the materials used in these batteries. Also no mention of what will happen when they at the end of their life and need to be disposed of. Not so many years ago plastic came into existence and everyone thought it was a very good thing and look how that has gone.
That is of course another subject, and discussed elsewhere.
So is this effectively the end of the dumb charger (EVSE) then? Seems silly to push this into the chargers and not the EV's itself. Its simple enough to remove the charger off the internet. Good chat with Chris. 👍
if it's saving you money, why work around it?
@@edc1569 because not everyone lives some “model” life. What about the people who work different shifts?
I don't think they are banning the use of dumb chargepoints. Remember that every EV comes with a granny charge lead. So all you have to do is plug into a standard 230V socket outlet and start charging. They can't stop that.
You set the finish time.. you're smart charger.. home appliances etc connected to the grid work out between themselves when is the best time to charge.. both for grid capacity.. and to provide the cheapest charging .. new smart tarrifs needs to be set up by energy companies for this...simples🤔... Why is this not happening ????
Thank you for the replies to my previous posts… they bring me back to previous work I did on this. Rather than relying on memory, I dug out some material from the 2010 to 2015 time frame when the Smart Grids and Smart Metering appeared to politicians as offering a lucky way out of the horrendous infrastructure cost of delivering electrical supplies with the resilience and capacity to switch all heating and transport to electricity. This reference consultation document from UK government gives a good background. Fortunately the link still works: www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/consultations/smart_mtr_imp/smart_mtr_imp.aspx
This presentation trumpeted the benefits to consumers, but something of a smokescreen. If one spends all day staring at the smart meter display and constantly checks the energy spot market, one might save money, but a day at the races might serve just as well. The objective was to exert demand management so that the electricity grid could survive through remote control of energy intensive products.
Two quotes from the consultation:
“Load management capability to deliver demand side management - ability to remotely control electricity load for more sophisticated control of devices in the home”
“… this approach to the delivery of smart metering will provide functionality with the potential to support other initiatives: … Electric vehicles - by providing the potential for consumers to charge these vehicles at home using smart meter controls or to refuel at alternative charging points while paying for the electricity through the customer's energy bill.”
I take the point that current policy seems to be going the way of pay per mile. I find that very strange as smart metering was established to manage electric vehicle charging, as this UA-cam video shows. It is also perfectly capable of identifying when and where an electric vehicle is being charged and billing the user accordingly. No need to establish a pay per mile infrastructure covering the whole country at huge expense. Moreover, this solution to lost revenue would not control demand-side needs directly. It is easy to calculate from petrol and diesel fuel usage that a few more Hinckley Points would be needed to satisfy the extra demand of electric vehicles without any demand-side management. We shall see what happens. For those who want to delve into the history of all this, the UK approach to smart grids and smart metering drew heavily on work in the State of California.
Eventually we need to get to the point that every car parking space has a charger so all cars are plugged in whenever they're not being used. Then the quantity of load balancing available will be huge.
This is exactly why I won't be buying an electric vehicle. The Gov regulations are egregious 😡
This is great update thanks.
I already have my EV charger on a timer 0130 to 0530, for the greenest electricity, and avoid filling battery to 100% for long term battery wear.
But I can over-ride whenever I need "alexa, switch on car plug".
Now as we move towards the smart grid, which balances load / supply / carbon intensity the future is bright!
Looking forward to getting solar panels next, and smart water heating.
One more hope / dream is to build lots more wind turbines including on land, so we can stop sending oil money to dodgy countries.
Your EV charger isn't necessarily consuming the 'greenest' electricity just because you have it set to charge between these hours. The wind can easily drop over-night! Charging from a battery that is itself charged using your solar panels (when you're using the car away from home during the day?) would be more impressive.
We're the same here. I have a dumb Rolec chargepoint with an Alexa enabled switch on the pilot. This allows me to schedule charging to start at 0030 and end at 0430, but if I need a charge during the day I can can just turn it on. Once we get our solar array we'll be charging the car as much as possible during the day using the solar.
the future looks grim especially if you view some of the comments here.
1. just expressing that sentiment apparently makes one selfish
2. people who charge EV's at home are privileged to have off street facility to do this, many cannot!
3. Inability to charge off street exposes one to time contraints, high costs, uncertainty, less security
4. toll roads instead of fuel duty need a whole extra monitoring infrastructure which is costly & unnecessary
5. toll roads are potententially another big brother move
6. duty can be by fuel use with ICE or EV using existing infrastructure
7. paying duty thru toll roads cheats EV users of duty savings thus removing an incentive
8. I and many others only use a vehicle only to serve others - is it selfish to have quick reliable refuelling
9. I was shocked to see an EV plugged in but NOT charging during peak demand - charging is slow anyway
10. stealing random 10 mins from your cheap rate charging hours is a con that will probably get worse
11. taking charge back out of your EV shortens the mileage of the EV battery as well as taking out charge
12. the vehicle tax pays for roads - not fuel duty. Fuel duty is general tax like VAT (you pay both on petrol)
It's awesome how the our rail systems were built by past generations with massive manpower and without the equipment and tech we have today and yet somehow made a workable system (for a while). Then you look at today; high public costs but low public investment in the grid and base load MSR power stations. We baulk at the idea of strengthening the grid as if it is the last thing we should consider. Short term solutions store up long term problems. That is dishonest polititical thinking, that is where we are today big time, writ large for all to see as if we are proud of it. It is shameful theft from future generations.
These people are sheep. They will follow each other off a cliff
Grimsby/ Stallingborough is in Lincolnshire not Yorkshire.
Thanks - it’s been mentioned in despatches from the Grimsby tourist board!
I can remember when diesel vehicles first came onto the market and the government kept advertising the fact that diesel was so much cheaper than petrol. So slowly, lots of us changed to diesel vehicles, which were slow and noisey, but hey, it was saving a lot in fuel costs. Then once the majority of vehicles were diesel powered, diesel suddenly is more expensive than petrol. I will never buy an E car, because sometime down the road,, I know I will get shafted by the government, and I don't think I will need to wait long for that.
give a few year before there charging £1.70 per kwh at charging stations, Ive notice them shooting up by 7p already, Ontop of the cost of these vehicles which are horrendous i think they are selling people down the drain again
better off buying a battery bicycle where you are the hybrid or eventually we'll all be back to horses
The cheapest way to charge my EV the better. If it's a special EV tariff or DNO deciding to switch me on and off when it's cheapest. I spend far too much on an asset that sits there doing nothing for 95% of the time.
Why should EV owners be able to use electricity to charge EVs at a cheaper rate than I can get to run my heating and hot water system?
@@barrieshepherd7694 That's a question you need to ask your energy supplier..... As an EV owner, I can only suggest you get an EV, then you'll be able to take advantage of the cheaper rate.....
So. In the future, we're all driving electric cars and the government control the charging options on them.
Cue another pandemic or similar and public movement is restricted by law.
Chargers will be turned off and no one will go anywhere.
And, as some of the old hands here know, our leaders are very apt at quietly slipping in further taxation. Especially once your tied in and have no way to change.
Essentially, this gives them too much control over the public. Yet again, another good idea hijacked.
Couple of things that really need tackling here.
I have no issue at all delaying my charge, as long as my off-peak tariff follows along. As said in the video, customers don't want to lose out on off peak time.
Also for solar owners when is the issue of insanely low rates via the SEG going to be tackled? If I'm going to be expected to flex my charging to reduce demand on the grid then why can't I be paid properly for energy I'm feeding back to the grid? Currently rates are even lower than off peak electricity rates and this isn't acceptable.
With the growing amounts of homeowners with battery storage they should be encouraged to feed that back to the grid too. We can help the grid considerably but need to be compensated in turn. More than happy too feed back a kW or two at peak rates.
Decentralisation is another solution to the problem.
Octopus intelligent does exactly that, it gives you a 6 hour cheap window instead of 4, but allows them to decide when to charge your car. You set a goal and they get you there but on their terms. Currently only open to teslas.
The issue of a low SEG will never be solved. The price per kwh for electricity is only 1/3 of the bill. The rest are made up by their overheads, eg billing and by green and social (mainly the latter) levies. They are never going to pay you back the levies etc, so they give you an amount that's similar to the wholesale cost of the energy.
I believe that octopus agile gives you better variable rates for exports, say 12p ish but your imports are currently always basically 35p since this gas price crisis. Gone are the days of occasional negative prices.
@@Lewis_Standing that needs rolling out to all energy firms. Sadly most of them don't do half of what octopus does.
Or, just buy a charging cable, contactor and the charging relay module and build a charger for £100-120 with no big-brother control.
7.2kW EVC's are not clever or fancy, they are a cable, a contactor and a logic board. Simple as that. I didn't even have a control module in my MK1 DIY charger. It was a cable, into a 40A isolator connected to a 32A RCBO in my garage, plugged car in, switched on isolator, car messaged me at about 98% charge (I set it like that) and I would go out and unplug it 10 minutes later. Cost me £90 for the cable, and £15 for the isolator.
I do t have a problem with this in itself but the government has a very bad track record of these large scale edicts. The smart meter fiasco is a classic example of them rushing things that have clearly not worked.
Now the real requirement is that I have my car at the level I need for the use I have. Anything getting in the way of that is simply unacceptable. Electric cars are not the best solution for emissions when taking the whole life cycle, but it’s being driven by the green agenda, but they are inevitable so we have to manage them.
If a potential 10-minute delay means that your car is not full enough for your needs, the inability to set a charge time that starts 10 minutes earlier can only attributed to what's inside your head.
So off peak becomes peak demand...
The latest fun idea our government's wanting to do (Once they've pushed everyone they can into buying an electric car) is use these cars as a kind of battery bank to store excess energy from the grid. So you'll plug in your car, and at peak times the grid will actually be sucking power OUT of your partially depleted battery. This power will then be replaced at no cost at some point during the rest of the charging cycle.
This may not sound that bad, but think about it. A key factor of why Li-Ion battery packs "Wear out" is due to the number of charge cycles they have on them. If you don't neccecery work office hours you may come home from work, plug in your car, and get it fully charged. THEN the grid might start pulling out power to help with peak demand. Once demand drops off again, your car is charged back up to full again and you're none the wiser. Maybe you work from home, and your car's only there for emergency's and personal use. The car could be sat on (What you assumed was) a battery life friendly trickle charge all week, but in reality it was having partial battery cycles took out of it's packs life every day.
Will the government be willing to take financial responsibility for the expensive battery packs that their power storage idea will prematurely age?........ Will they hell !
You are describing V2G - Vehicle To Grid. It's already huge in Norway, with many whom have signed up to V2G schemes making the equivalent of £30 a week. The V2G system is intelligent, and "learns" your daily energy requirements so as not to leave you with less charge than you'd normally need. Although you can of course override the system and set your own "waterline" limit if you choose. If you normally charged on an EV tariff at (say) 7.5p per kwh, then sold some of your charge to the grid during the night, being paid 2 or 3 times what you paid for it, then you're in profit. My immediate thoughts might be to charge for free at my local Sainsburys, then sell some of it to the grid. But alas, there are no V2G schemes generally available just yet. There are just two I'm aware of. One at the Nissan plant in Sunderland, and the other is at Nissan's R & D Centre in Bedfordshire....
@@Brian-om2hh Yeah, but will the potential profit be enough to compensate someone for maybe only getting 6 or 7 years before the car needs a replacement battery (That costs almost what the cars worth at that point), rather than not taking part in the system and it lasting up to 10 years?
This kind of system only really benefits an EV's owner if they buy new and replace the car every 3 to 4 years with another new one. A second hand buyer will be faced with the problems of working out the true value of something like a 4 year old car with significantly over the average number of charge cycles on it Vs a high mileage car that's been used long distance each day, but has a lower total number of recharges under it's belt.
As a random side thought here. There's laws against tampering with a cars mileage in most countries, but is there anything specifically in place to make it illegal to re-flash an EV's battery control module and make it report back below average usage? When the difference between the value of a car that's had an easy life, and one that's been getting heavily used as a national grid storage device (And is nearing the point when it will need a new battery fitting) could run into many thousands of pounds, unless there's protection against tampering, the underhanded element of society would happily pay someone to tweak the firmware and deceive buyers if it means maximising the resale price of their car.
Battery cycle life is determined by the number of times the battery is fully discharged. Small variations in charge level do not reduce the battery life and generate revenue. Meanwhile the battery also has a calendar life, so it gradually loses capacity over the years. Hence a 2009 Mitsubishi iMIEV will have reduced battery capacity even if it has a low mileage. EV owners will be better off earning a small amount each month from grid services. Everyone will benefit from reducing the need for grid reinforcement.
That electric car you bought will ultimately be used as energy storage for the power grid and the best thing ( for them) is you'll be the one paying for it.