Very interesting thanks Tim for sharing your figures. On the GivEnergy forum other users of IOF have shared their experiences; some of the charging times seem weird and not aligned to agile/market rates so good to see that actually it has worked out best overall for you. I know you don’t want to include Agile in your comparison due to the variability, but plugging my May average agile price (11.82p/kWh) into your import and export figures gives a cost of -£55.25 which is very close to Flux but still not as good as IOF. My calculations of Flux vs Agile+Fixed indicated that there wasn’t much in it so I didn’t change from my winter tariff but with a consumption:generation ratio of 2.6 in May, I’m now wondering again about IOF. I have two inverters which I think IOF might not like. Oh decisions, decisions.
Crikey, 2.6 is an excellent generation ratio. In the IOF FAQs it mentions about multiple inverters being an issue, but I don't know whether they could hook up to one of them, while leaving the other to do its own thing. Might be an interesting experiment!
Great video Tim, as you say the important part is the ranking, rather than actual figures. I am managing around 95% night rate use over the Summer months and am on Intelligent Octopus Go, as we use a lot of electricity.
I mentioned in a previous video that Octopus were not charging the batteries during the free “power up” periods. I queried this with them and this was their response. “ I just wanted to let you know I have received an update regarding your power ups query and can confirm, battery/EV schedules will not be updated to charge during a Power-up! Customers that want to charge during a Power-up need to boost charge / overrule the charging schedule and it's their responsibility to ensure the charging stops when the Power-ups ends” We all know that you can make changes but in a short period of time, the setting fall back to their own. It’s disappointing that Octopus are telling customers lies!!
Yes, that is a bit of a shortcoming. I suspect not everyone in support knows exactly how IOF works. Mention it to them again, along with this limitation, and they will hopefully disseminate that further. With any luck the message will make it to the relevant people who can fix the issue. That's the problem with any large company, it's never as joined up as you'd hope.
Great video Tim. Can’t get IF due to having PWs (sad that the TEP has gone!). Flux for us during the summer, IOG (+ Outgoing Fixed Export) for the winter seems to be the best compromise for us
Thanks Tim, Ive just changed to Intelligent GO so all my charging (home and car) dishwashing and washing machine are done from 11:30 pm. May was a disappointment for solar but Agile tariff still returned £45 in export and £34 in import so at least I`m in credit for May. Be interesting to see how Intelligent GO performs.
(new to the channel, so apoligies if any of this has been covered in a previous video) Have you considered Octopus Agile? Pricing changes half-hourly, and import is occasionally down around 5p/kWh, sometimes getting as low as 0p/kWh or even negative. Agile export also varies and is usually around half of import, however Octopus do allow you to be on Agile for import and Fixed for export (15p/kWh all the time) meaning that there are times when import is significantly lower than export (at the time of writing this comment, import in my area is 6.16p/kWh) One thing to note with the tariffs is that you can't combine Flux export with Agile import. If you want to be on Flux, you need it for both import and export, but you can split up Agile. I've written a lot of my own code to manage my system myself, and determine what mode to put the system into at any time. I've personally not been doing any force discharge recently, but I'm wondering if I should do that at various points in the day, depending on pricing.
My original "rule of thumb" video was designed to make things as simple as possible to help the most people (with solar) choose a good tariff for them. I paired up the best export tariff available for each import tariff where appropriate too (obviously the two Flux tariffs have their own export tariffs, but the others the have a few options available). Agile is more or less impossible to fit into that framework because it's so variable, and so I didn't include it. I think for most of the people who are likely to try Agile they're prepared to do their own analysis too, so I felt it was reasonable to exclude it. It's certainly an interesting tariff but not one I myself am keen to try just yet, at least not until Octopus bring out an "Intelligent" version in the way that Gary Does Solar suggested, whereby Octopus control the charging and discharging of your battery in the same was as they do for IOF. I think that would be pretty neat.
Hi Tim. When are thinking of switching back from octopus intelligence flux back to regular octopus flux?. I live in the Bath area so Autumn sunshine may be around for a bit longer than other parts of the UK.
A very timely question. I was planning on switching to regular Flux at the end of the month, but I might switch early due to these free electricity periods Octopus have been running lately. I've found I can't override the battery charging and there's no guarantee Octopus will charge the batteries when the power is free (at least they haven't the last two times, which is annoying). So I might switch imminently.
Great. I will be switching back to Octopus Flux now. I can’t find how to do that change the tariff on line, in fact it looks like a nightmare. So I will call them instead.
@@malcolmbennett4325 probably a good idea. I initially disconnected the battery from Octopus control via the app, then found the Flux sign-up page. But it always gets stuck for some reason so I just immediately emailed them to ask for it to be switched, which they did straight away. Calling will probably get the job done quickly.
I’ve switched back to octopus flux but did it by contacting Octopus. I enquired would it take 28 days, as I thought that was the terms. But they said no it’s immediate. But I think the algorithm is this controlling my settings, as the ‘eco setting’ keeps going to disable. What your current experience?
Your rule of thumb chart seems to be holding up well. I’m on intelligent go and find I’m only using about 20% max of my battery in the evening (Giv AIO) so definitely scope for some forced discharge in the evening before 11:30 pm. 5kWh per evening seems reasonable?
Thanks Tim. I’m on IOG and my generation, consumption, import and export are similar to yours. Doing the IOG maths for your numbers Import 419.17 x 0.075=£31.43 Export 698.51 x 0.15 = £104.77 104.77-31.43 = £73.34 Better than £66.08 you received on IOF. Have you included the standing charge in your calculations?
Have you considered other tariffs for your “Rule of Thumb” chart? I have recently moved to Octopus so am currently on the variable tariff. Unfortunately, I have an I-Pace and an unsupported Indra charger, so with the recent JLR API saga I cannot go to IOG. With my newly installed Solar/GE AIO, Octopus are waiting for my DNO export approval. So, my current setup is Variable tariff with “Economy 7” which is 30.91p day rate and 7 hours at 12.86p. I am a low usage EV charger, so solar and occasional Economy 7 rates suffice. As I am self sufficient during the summer months (so the day rate is irrelevant) and I have applied for the 15p export rate, I wonder if this would be better than moving to OG with only an 8p export rate? Notwithstanding the Flux packages may still be better once I am fully enrolled with Octopus, but it would be good to see how they compare.
The charts get quite messy as you add more tariffs so I choose to limit it to the common smart tariffs, which are likely to cover most people. However, you can grab a copy of the rule of thumb spreadsheet using the link in the description and add any other tariff you like (just replace the values in the relevant cells to replace one of the existing ones, or add a new column).
Back of my fag packet says i could generate an extra tenner a month by force exporting half my battery every day (4.5 x 7.5p x 30 ). (7.5p because import at 7.5p export at 15p) but aside the hassle of doing that (or spending maybe £200 on a HA setup to automate it?) I'm worried how hot my inverter gets in force export, an issue yours doesn't seem to have but I know from the forums others do. I have the GE 5kW inverter is yours the same or the 3.6? Anyway because of those two 'features' I'll stick with IGo. I only switched to iGo halfway through May and havent had a bill yet to see how it worked out, in practice, so this June will be my first full month. Also i dont know for sure what my gen/usage ratio will be but I'm guessing around 1.4 to 1.5 x gen over consumption so theres not much of a difference between IGo and IFlux at that ratio.
Just on the point about HA and automation, it does open a door to wider home automation and information about how your solar and energy use performs, so personally I’m happy I have gone down that route, so personal choice. Cost is more in the £70-100 mark for a small PC or Raspberry Pi to run HA. Alternatively cloud systems like myenergy optimiser or wonder watt will do a great job
Yeah, mine is the Gen 2 5kW hybrid inverter. It does sound like IOG is probably the best option for you given your gen/consumption, and you could probably stay on that the whole year, which keeps things simpler.
@@geoffreycoan Then add on the £50 for a CT clamp to manage EV discharge?(thats what i saw in one tutorial on the subject anyway) And no doubt a few extra gizmos? A screen for example, dont have one of those. The
@@Joe-lb8qn I don’t have an EV, but if I did, it would come with its own CT clamp I’m sure. You certainly don’t need one for Home Assistant although it can be useful to add extra CT clamps or smart plugs to monitor home consumption if that’s something you want to do. My mini PC was I think £78 off ebay and that included storage. Yes I had a monitor already so if you don’t, that’d be extra. A Raspberry Pi with storage would cost slightly more and it doesn’t need a display, it runs headless very well and you can plug it into a HDMI TV for the setup process. Home Assistant is a bit of a rabbit hole though, you find you want to add more monitors and more automations. Some people can take it to extreme, I am quite happy with light switches in rooms though !
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Think it should be baked into usage, at least for residential. Would benefit us PV + battery owners. Also incentivize lower usage?
I`m at 61p in central Scotland and can see the two largest wind farms in the UK from the house, I live within 3 miles of a grid substation and the only large scale battery storage facility in Scotland, its just totally messed up
Very interesting thanks Tim for sharing your figures. On the GivEnergy forum other users of IOF have shared their experiences; some of the charging times seem weird and not aligned to agile/market rates so good to see that actually it has worked out best overall for you. I know you don’t want to include Agile in your comparison due to the variability, but plugging my May average agile price (11.82p/kWh) into your import and export figures gives a cost of -£55.25 which is very close to Flux but still not as good as IOF.
My calculations of Flux vs Agile+Fixed indicated that there wasn’t much in it so I didn’t change from my winter tariff but with a consumption:generation ratio of 2.6 in May, I’m now wondering again about IOF. I have two inverters which I think IOF might not like. Oh decisions, decisions.
Crikey, 2.6 is an excellent generation ratio. In the IOF FAQs it mentions about multiple inverters being an issue, but I don't know whether they could hook up to one of them, while leaving the other to do its own thing. Might be an interesting experiment!
I got 2.2 for May. Not quite as good as GC, but not bad. 😀
Great video Tim, as you say the important part is the ranking, rather than actual figures. I am managing around 95% night rate use over the Summer months and am on Intelligent Octopus Go, as we use a lot of electricity.
That's great going. With high demand it's definitely best to stick with IOG, I'd say.
Great Red Dwarf reference!
Intelligent Flux is EPIC!
Our May energy bill was -£77. Yep - = credit. And we have an EV.
Very nice! And you're the first person to mention the Red Dwarf reference 😉
I mentioned in a previous video that Octopus were not charging the batteries during the free “power up” periods. I queried this with them and this was their response. “ I just wanted to let you know I have received an update regarding your power ups query and can confirm, battery/EV schedules will not be updated to charge during a Power-up!
Customers that want to charge during a Power-up need to boost charge / overrule the charging schedule and it's their responsibility to ensure the charging stops when the Power-ups ends”
We all know that you can make changes but in a short period of time, the setting fall back to their own. It’s disappointing that Octopus are telling customers lies!!
Yes, that is a bit of a shortcoming. I suspect not everyone in support knows exactly how IOF works. Mention it to them again, along with this limitation, and they will hopefully disseminate that further. With any luck the message will make it to the relevant people who can fix the issue. That's the problem with any large company, it's never as joined up as you'd hope.
Great video Tim. Can’t get IF due to having PWs (sad that the TEP has gone!). Flux for us during the summer, IOG (+ Outgoing Fixed Export) for the winter seems to be the best compromise for us
Sounds reasonable. It's possible Octopus will add more battery systems to IOF at some point, so you might be able to make use of it in the future.
Thanks Tim, Ive just changed to Intelligent GO so all my charging (home and car) dishwashing and washing machine are done from 11:30 pm. May was a disappointment for solar but Agile tariff still returned £45 in export and £34 in import so at least I`m in credit for May. Be interesting to see how Intelligent GO performs.
If you've got all your load coming from off-peak you're off to a great start so I'm sure it'll work out well for you being on IOG. Best of luck!
(new to the channel, so apoligies if any of this has been covered in a previous video)
Have you considered Octopus Agile? Pricing changes half-hourly, and import is occasionally down around 5p/kWh, sometimes getting as low as 0p/kWh or even negative. Agile export also varies and is usually around half of import, however Octopus do allow you to be on Agile for import and Fixed for export (15p/kWh all the time) meaning that there are times when import is significantly lower than export (at the time of writing this comment, import in my area is 6.16p/kWh)
One thing to note with the tariffs is that you can't combine Flux export with Agile import. If you want to be on Flux, you need it for both import and export, but you can split up Agile.
I've written a lot of my own code to manage my system myself, and determine what mode to put the system into at any time. I've personally not been doing any force discharge recently, but I'm wondering if I should do that at various points in the day, depending on pricing.
My original "rule of thumb" video was designed to make things as simple as possible to help the most people (with solar) choose a good tariff for them. I paired up the best export tariff available for each import tariff where appropriate too (obviously the two Flux tariffs have their own export tariffs, but the others the have a few options available). Agile is more or less impossible to fit into that framework because it's so variable, and so I didn't include it. I think for most of the people who are likely to try Agile they're prepared to do their own analysis too, so I felt it was reasonable to exclude it. It's certainly an interesting tariff but not one I myself am keen to try just yet, at least not until Octopus bring out an "Intelligent" version in the way that Gary Does Solar suggested, whereby Octopus control the charging and discharging of your battery in the same was as they do for IOF. I think that would be pretty neat.
Hi Tim. When are thinking of switching back from octopus intelligence flux back to regular octopus flux?. I live in the Bath area so Autumn sunshine may be around for a bit longer than other parts of the UK.
A very timely question. I was planning on switching to regular Flux at the end of the month, but I might switch early due to these free electricity periods Octopus have been running lately. I've found I can't override the battery charging and there's no guarantee Octopus will charge the batteries when the power is free (at least they haven't the last two times, which is annoying). So I might switch imminently.
I switched today. Just in time to see the sun totally disappear!
Great. I will be switching back to Octopus Flux now. I can’t find how to do that change the tariff on line, in fact it looks like a nightmare. So I will call them instead.
@@malcolmbennett4325 probably a good idea. I initially disconnected the battery from Octopus control via the app, then found the Flux sign-up page. But it always gets stuck for some reason so I just immediately emailed them to ask for it to be switched, which they did straight away. Calling will probably get the job done quickly.
I’ve switched back to octopus flux but did it by contacting Octopus. I enquired would it take 28 days, as I thought that was the terms. But they said no it’s immediate. But I think the algorithm is this controlling my settings, as the ‘eco setting’ keeps going to disable. What your current experience?
Your rule of thumb chart seems to be holding up well. I’m on intelligent go and find I’m only using about 20% max of my battery in the evening (Giv AIO) so definitely scope for some forced discharge in the evening before 11:30 pm. 5kWh per evening seems reasonable?
Yeah, that's probably worth a try, see how you get on.
Thanks Tim.
I’m on IOG and my generation, consumption, import and export are similar to yours. Doing the IOG maths for your numbers
Import 419.17 x 0.075=£31.43
Export 698.51 x 0.15 = £104.77
104.77-31.43 = £73.34
Better than £66.08 you received on IOF.
Have you included the standing charge in your calculations?
Yes, my values in the bar chart include the standing charge.
Have you considered other tariffs for your “Rule of Thumb” chart? I have recently moved to Octopus so am currently on the variable tariff. Unfortunately, I have an I-Pace and an unsupported Indra charger, so with the recent JLR API saga I cannot go to IOG. With my newly installed Solar/GE AIO, Octopus are waiting for my DNO export approval. So, my current setup is Variable tariff with “Economy 7” which is 30.91p day rate and 7 hours at 12.86p. I am a low usage EV charger, so solar and occasional Economy 7 rates suffice. As I am self sufficient during the summer months (so the day rate is irrelevant) and I have applied for the 15p export rate, I wonder if this would be better than moving to OG with only an 8p export rate? Notwithstanding the Flux packages may still be better once I am fully enrolled with Octopus, but it would be good to see how they compare.
The charts get quite messy as you add more tariffs so I choose to limit it to the common smart tariffs, which are likely to cover most people. However, you can grab a copy of the rule of thumb spreadsheet using the link in the description and add any other tariff you like (just replace the values in the relevant cells to replace one of the existing ones, or add a new column).
Back of my fag packet says i could generate an extra tenner a month by force exporting half my battery every day (4.5 x 7.5p x 30 ). (7.5p because import at 7.5p export at 15p) but aside the hassle of doing that (or spending maybe £200 on a HA setup to automate it?) I'm worried how hot my inverter gets in force export, an issue yours doesn't seem to have but I know from the forums others do. I have the GE 5kW inverter is yours the same or the 3.6? Anyway because of those two 'features' I'll stick with IGo. I only switched to iGo halfway through May and havent had a bill yet to see how it worked out, in practice, so this June will be my first full month. Also i dont know for sure what my gen/usage ratio will be but I'm guessing around 1.4 to 1.5 x gen over consumption so theres not much of a difference between IGo and IFlux at that ratio.
Just on the point about HA and automation, it does open a door to wider home automation and information about how your solar and energy use performs, so personally I’m happy I have gone down that route, so personal choice. Cost is more in the £70-100 mark for a small PC or Raspberry Pi to run HA. Alternatively cloud systems like myenergy optimiser or wonder watt will do a great job
Yeah, mine is the Gen 2 5kW hybrid inverter. It does sound like IOG is probably the best option for you given your gen/consumption, and you could probably stay on that the whole year, which keeps things simpler.
@@geoffreycoan Then add on the £50 for a CT clamp to manage EV discharge?(thats what i saw in one tutorial on the subject anyway) And no doubt a few extra gizmos? A screen for example, dont have one of those. The
@@Joe-lb8qn I don’t have an EV, but if I did, it would come with its own CT clamp I’m sure. You certainly don’t need one for Home Assistant although it can be useful to add extra CT clamps or smart plugs to monitor home consumption if that’s something you want to do.
My mini PC was I think £78 off ebay and that included storage. Yes I had a monitor already so if you don’t, that’d be extra. A Raspberry Pi with storage would cost slightly more and it doesn’t need a display, it runs headless very well and you can plug it into a HDMI TV for the setup process.
Home Assistant is a bit of a rabbit hole though, you find you want to add more monitors and more automations. Some people can take it to extreme, I am quite happy with light switches in rooms though !
Crazy low standing charge. Think we're paying 65p!
47.85p in east of england...
It's mad that 60p per day is considered low! There has to be a better way, these standing charges are ridiculous regardless of where you live.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Think it should be baked into usage, at least for residential.
Would benefit us PV + battery owners.
Also incentivize lower usage?
@@stuartburns8657 I agree completely.
I`m at 61p in central Scotland and can see the two largest wind farms in the UK from the house, I live within 3 miles of a grid substation and the only large scale battery storage facility in Scotland, its just totally messed up