I came across and cheply bought the Hustler 6-BTV. After putting it up properly and according to the manual it looked like it was deaf. Especially in my QTH where the background noise is disastrous. Even the additional 12 ground monted counterpoises didn’t help. Although it was well in resonance. The previous user also was convinced about its complete deafness. But after installing a proper line isolator at the feeding point and back at the radio things chanched dramatically! Suddenly it starter working like a dream! It’s not meant for local contacts though. Anyway it’s a very interesting video. Thank you Peter!
Hello Peter - Interesting video. Many-many moons ago there was a commercial aerials for sale which didn't require an ATU or matching of any kind. One of these aerials was used in a Marine installation on a Guard receiver(2182 & 500khz). The same model aerial was also used for transmission on a another installation. It was not a good performer so it was removed and put on the scrap pile for dumping. I rescued the antenna so-as-to-speak. I opened up the sealed box, the not to be opened type, and inside the box was one very large resistor ! This antenna was not cheap but by heck it was absolute *junk* A couple days ago I was mobile with my Xiegu G90 tuning around 40m, my aerial is an OPEK HF Multiband job, not the best of, or, robust of aerials. However to my utter amazement I heard a VK station working a UK station, the VK station was around S1. That was the first and I imagine the only time I will hear a VK on my mobile setup. My all-time favourite aerials are my GAP Titan DX and my T2FD, photos on QRZ.
You should be able to work VK and ZL by operating around our morning greyline time. I'm regularly doing so with either Ampro 20 on a magmount, or one of my homebrew portable antennas, one of which is a copy of a Bushcomm Mil-1 and includes a resistor in the main element which allows operation on 80 to 10 with no tuner! Your mobile set up will do it easily. I run 5 W and often turn down to below 1 W, and many of my QSOs are with other ops who are also running very modest antenna set ups. 73 M3KXZ
Another good video. I think it illustrates several principles about antennas. In most cases all things being equal modeling comes close, but all things are rarely equal! Several “ rules of thumb” come to mind. We do know verticals work best over very good ground. We do know they do not have low angle radiation over poor ground. We know horizontals are more immune to the type of ground under them. We do know the ground where the radiated wave first comes down and is reflected back up for its next hop makes a great difference. A VK/ ZL station usually has seawater at that point. Modeling programs are only as good as the model and many things can not be modeled correctly. So you are exactly right! We will probably never really know why one antenna works so good one place and not another. We also know, roughly, that a vertical starts with almost 0 dBi gain and a half wave horizontal starts with 6 to 8 dBi gain broadside. Of course gain is usually only talked about at the peak elevation angle. But still a horizontal antenna has some advantage, even at lower angles due because it starts out at a higher gain and the Brewster effect. All this can really mystify a new ham! I almost forgot, other antennas and wires nearby do affect the performance! Sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good!
@@watersstanton Thanks! You and I have been around a long time and have an appreciation of the complexity of antennas, ground, and propagation. There are just too many variables to fully understand and predict with any certainty what will work in any particular case! The best we can do is apply the fundamentals we know and see what happens.
Thanks for sharing Peter, fascinating topic, and one, which completely puzzles folk who rely on software completely. But the real world , is not on a computer screen. I know many who ,my type of ant , just doesn't work at they place hi. It's a hobby of many mystery, and sometimes it nice, not to have all the answers, but simply enjoy the hobby. 73 .
I think the number of unknowns when it comes to actual antenna performance is so massive that we may never discover the entirety of why a given antenna under (or over) performs. I will say that when it comes to ground mounted vertical antennas, I firmly believe that soil composition, moisture, water table, near-surface mineral deposits, and the like, make a huge difference in performance. I can see my own vertical, a 6BTV, change (for the better) when the soil gets more moisture. We're dry here, and until 12m decided to get magical tonight, it's been a bit of a struggle through this dry season. Plus we never really know what happens to our radio waves when they get up in the ionosphere, do we? We know in general terms, perhaps, but they don't arrive at a destination with luggage tags from all the places they've been, so on any given trip, we're in the dark. But in the end, that's the joy of it all, I think. Experiment, try things, and see what happens. 73 de N8ESP
Good advice Peter, though I would probably add the qualifier "for what you want to do" to the criteria of whether an aerial works or not. My verticals and inverted Ls have served me well in the past, however a simple low dipole for 40m opened up a new world of inter G working for me. Another aerial I will have to revisit...
Very good Peter, and your right, the personal situation has a huge influence on what works. I would like to live on a hill with the nearest neighbour some 100 yards / meters away who loves the sight of an old guy putting different antenna up or seeing him shoving his grandson up a tree with a wire tied to his belt and a little bag of tools tapes and ties slung over his shoulder 😵💫 🛠️🪜✂️ But in reality my “garden / yard” measures 6mtr X 4mtrs and I prefer a bit of stealth, 😊😊 so my doublet runs around the plastic guttering of the house and it’s quite difficult to see. One of the interests of ham radio ops is overcoming the QTH impedance… is there a measurement for that similar to using ohms 🤪 🤔 🤨 Your ZL friend Brian sounds like a “ rum un “ a nice intrepid type 🤗 who likes antenna builds. 😊 Thanks for the video… Best wishes to everyone.73 G0UVL 💙
I must admit, I’ve built some antennas that didn’t work as well as I had hoped, but the education along the way has been half the fun of HAM radio 😉👍. Always enjoy your videos, 73 de Dan WD4DB
Peter, I have watched most of your videos, it would be great it you recorded one of your contacts with Brian when you talked with him and give us some tips on operating. Looking forward, thanks.
Great video peter. I will be in this dilema soon. moving to Italy from UK in less than 2 weeks and I have access to high up flat roof but don't want to put up a permanent system so looking at temp vertical with my 10m spiderbeam pole. lots of ideas in my head. 73 de Steve G0LQP
Compared to us in the UK vertical antennas in ZL are mounted upside down. On a more serious note I wonder if there is some electric field polarisation twist over that vast distance. I guess that the ionosphere can cause variations in the polarisation which may explain this.
Only purchased ones. Given I most regularly use just a piece of wire cut to length you'd think this is surprising, until you look at the aerials being sold with desoldered connections, broken coils, terrible match for the band advertised, etc.
great points Peter... very interesting about the ongoing "mystery" of ham aerials... I wonder if the polar diagram lobes (eg which direction your half size g5rv is running) favours NZ? 73s
A vertical with elevated resonant radials might be a good experiment. There’s some fascinating research around a new design dubbed the “POTA PERformer”. What surprised me is that 1/4 wave radials on the ground are too long because they are detuned by ground proximity and pull the maximum current point away from the arial into the radial system increasing ground losses. As a community of learners and experimenters it’s exhilerating to discover what works and what doesn’t. POTA has inspired significant advances in portable antenna theory and practice.
Yes I have long preached that ground radials have a much lower resonant frequency. As I mentioned in the Video, elevated radials help, but are not the complete answer.
Wouldn't it be great if you could actually see RF energy radiating from your antenna, a bit like doppler weather maps on the TV. Dark red is the highest concentration of energy, then yellow is less, then green etc. Wait! I feel a business idea coming on! (Simon - XZ2A/XW0LP/HS0ZIB)
Ive thought of that as well. To actually be able to "see" how far and high where your signal propogates and where. That would be amazing but im not sure how it would be possible. Im sure there is a way but its above my brain wave length lol
I’ve three antenna up covering 40m-10m, 2 are multiband. Comparing the two multi bands, a Hustler 4btv and a Cobweb. From 20-10m the Cobweb knocks spots off the Hustler, so the Hustler now is just an expensive 40m vertical for me (my other antenna is a 30m dipole).. Given the expense of a Hustler then the effort & expense of a radial system I couldn’t recommend one, mines a dummy load
@@watersstanton seen it alright, I’ve the same set up actually. I must make a video.. In fairness to the Hustler, it’s ground mounted and I’m comparing it to a Cobweb with resonant elements at 10m above the ground. That said, before I got the Hustler I was never happy with 10m & 15m on the Hustler.
Thank you for this video. I truly enjoy your videos as I always learn something and listening to you explain things in your gentle tone really makes for an enjoyable time. Thank you, Steve, k7ofg.
I always worry about UA-camr hams who rely on modelling software as being sacrosanct. I long ago learnt the expression GI-GO (garbage in - garbage out) and I have never seen or heard of anyone checking the actual software. Is it based on suppositions as well as known facts? Might there be a minor typo error that can skew results in some circumstances? I like the idea of just getting out there and trying different antennas to see how they work in different circumstances. For example, when I was recently caravanning around the Australian outback I used a 17ft whip, 9:1 unun and "magic carpet". Some locations it seemed better than others, but was that a function of the terrain under my faraday cloth or was it just conditions as well as location? I even made 20m SSB mobile contacts from central VK5 into England, Italy and USA using 100 watts and just a Diamond SD330 whip on the bullbar of my 4WD. It's great fun to just muck around with ham radio and see what works. 73, VK4BOB
That you can work OZ garden to garden with simple antennas shows operator skills. Even with a KW and a tribander on a 66foot tower its often hard. Getting antenna supports even 33feet tall for 20 can be a problem. Cheap telescopic flag polls, whips and other bits can make nice half wave vertical or horizontal antennas. Multi bands are nice but, each band has different probagation and antenna layouts for best performance'
Hi Peter, Here at my QTH, anything with a high current point near the ground is just inefficient, ground reflection and absorption being the largest probable cause. But obviously ground proximity and give rise to skewed radiation patterns etc (not forgetting Brewster angle). What I have been experimenting with recently, is feeding a high impedance point, to say a half wave , but shortening the length by using using capacitive loading and just getting the feet of the ground a bit. There is a certainly case for saying this shouldn't make a whole lot of difference loosing efficiency due to more current in the antenna length, therefore in a way lowering the high current point anyway. However, i have found this produces considerable positives in performance. To me this confirm that the above mentioned effects are the main drivers in vertical performance and therefore the relatively low horizontal will often win out because it negates a lot of these issues in most locations.
wouldn't the angle of radiation on say a horizontal dipole or doublet change with the height off the ground, being high angle low to the ground and getting to a lower angle of radiation with more height off the ground depending what band your using at the time.
I came across and cheply bought the Hustler 6-BTV. After putting it up properly and according to the manual it looked like it was deaf. Especially in my QTH where the background noise is disastrous. Even the additional 12 ground monted counterpoises didn’t help. Although it was well in resonance. The previous user also was convinced about its complete deafness. But after installing a proper line isolator at the feeding point and back at the radio things chanched dramatically! Suddenly it starter working like a dream! It’s not meant for local contacts though. Anyway it’s a very interesting video. Thank you Peter!
That’s good to hear. Well done.
I spend much of my time on radio completely mystified by it! … But that’s why I love it! It’s magic!!!😂
Yes a bit of magic is always welcome.
Hello Peter - Interesting video.
Many-many moons ago there was a commercial aerials for sale which didn't require an ATU or matching of any kind. One of these aerials was used in a Marine installation on a Guard receiver(2182 & 500khz). The same model aerial was also used for transmission on a another installation. It was not a good performer so it was removed and put on the scrap pile for dumping. I rescued the antenna so-as-to-speak. I opened up the sealed box, the not to be opened type, and inside the box was one very large resistor ! This antenna was not cheap but by heck it was absolute *junk*
A couple days ago I was mobile with my Xiegu G90 tuning around 40m, my aerial is an OPEK HF Multiband job, not the best of, or, robust of aerials. However to my utter amazement I heard a VK station working a UK station, the VK station was around S1. That was the first and I imagine the only time I will hear a VK on my mobile setup. My all-time favourite aerials are my GAP Titan DX and my T2FD, photos on QRZ.
Interesting tale. Many yhanks.
You should be able to work VK and ZL by operating around our morning greyline time. I'm regularly doing so with either Ampro 20 on a magmount, or one of my homebrew portable antennas, one of which is a copy of a Bushcomm Mil-1 and includes a resistor in the main element which allows operation on 80 to 10 with no tuner! Your mobile set up will do it easily.
I run 5 W and often turn down to below 1 W, and many of my QSOs are with other ops who are also running very modest antenna set ups.
73 M3KXZ
Another good video. I think it illustrates several principles about antennas. In most cases all things being equal modeling comes close, but all things are rarely equal! Several “ rules of thumb” come to mind. We do know verticals work best over very good ground. We do know they do not have low angle radiation over poor ground. We know horizontals are more immune to the type of ground under them. We do know the ground where the radiated wave first comes down and is reflected back up for its next hop makes a great difference. A VK/ ZL station usually has seawater at that point. Modeling programs are only as good as the model and many things can not be modeled correctly. So you are exactly right! We will probably never really know why one antenna works so good one place and not another. We also know, roughly, that a vertical starts with almost 0 dBi gain and a half wave horizontal starts with 6 to 8 dBi gain broadside. Of course gain is usually only talked about at the peak elevation angle. But still a horizontal antenna has some advantage, even at lower angles due because it starts out at a higher gain and the Brewster effect. All this can really mystify a new ham! I almost forgot, other antennas and wires nearby do affect the performance! Sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good!
Many thanks. Some interesting observations. Much appreciated.
@@watersstanton Thanks! You and I have been around a long time and have an appreciation of the complexity of antennas, ground, and propagation. There are just too many variables to fully understand and predict with any certainty what will work in any particular case! The best we can do is apply the fundamentals we know and see what happens.
Very interesting Peter. I love experimenting with antennas and I must agree with you. Still looking for the holy grail for my garden. Thank you.
You and me both!
Thanks for sharing Peter, fascinating topic, and one, which completely puzzles folk who rely on software completely. But the real world , is not on a computer screen.
I know many who ,my type of ant , just doesn't work at they place hi.
It's a hobby of many mystery, and sometimes it nice, not to have all the answers, but simply enjoy the hobby.
73 .
Yes some truth thete!
I think the number of unknowns when it comes to actual antenna performance is so massive that we may never discover the entirety of why a given antenna under (or over) performs.
I will say that when it comes to ground mounted vertical antennas, I firmly believe that soil composition, moisture, water table, near-surface mineral deposits, and the like, make a huge difference in performance. I can see my own vertical, a 6BTV, change (for the better) when the soil gets more moisture. We're dry here, and until 12m decided to get magical tonight, it's been a bit of a struggle through this dry season.
Plus we never really know what happens to our radio waves when they get up in the ionosphere, do we? We know in general terms, perhaps, but they don't arrive at a destination with luggage tags from all the places they've been, so on any given trip, we're in the dark.
But in the end, that's the joy of it all, I think. Experiment, try things, and see what happens.
73 de N8ESP
Many thanks. Yes the ground is important..
I used a G5RV for years with great success despite the fact that many people claimed they "didn't work".
Good advice Peter, though I would probably add the qualifier "for what you want to do" to the criteria of whether an aerial works or not. My verticals and inverted Ls have served me well in the past, however a simple low dipole for 40m opened up a new world of inter G working for me. Another aerial I will have to revisit...
Many thanks for sharing.
Very good Peter, and your right, the personal situation has a huge influence on what works. I would like to live on a hill with the nearest neighbour some 100 yards / meters away who loves the sight of an old guy putting different antenna up or seeing him shoving his grandson up a tree with a wire tied to his belt and a little bag of tools tapes and ties slung over his shoulder 😵💫 🛠️🪜✂️ But in reality my “garden / yard” measures 6mtr X 4mtrs and I prefer a bit of stealth, 😊😊 so my doublet runs around the plastic guttering of the house and it’s quite difficult to see. One of the interests of ham radio ops is overcoming the QTH impedance… is there a measurement for that similar to using ohms 🤪 🤔 🤨
Your ZL friend Brian sounds like a “ rum un “ a nice intrepid type 🤗 who likes antenna builds. 😊
Thanks for the video… Best wishes to everyone.73 G0UVL 💙
Many thanks. Nice to read your comments. Keep at it.
I must admit, I’ve built some antennas that didn’t work as well as I had hoped, but the education along the way has been half the fun of HAM radio 😉👍. Always enjoy your videos, 73 de Dan WD4DB
Thanks Dan.
Good video. You just need to try different hf antennas and find the one that works the best for you. Keep the videos coming
Yes many thanks
Peter, I have watched most of your videos, it would be great it you recorded one of your contacts with Brian when you talked with him and give us some tips on operating. Looking forward, thanks.
OK.
Thanks peter,really enjoyed this one
Great video peter. I will be in this dilema soon. moving to Italy from UK in less than 2 weeks and I have access to high up flat roof but don't want to put up a permanent system so looking at temp vertical with my 10m spiderbeam pole. lots of ideas in my head. 73 de Steve G0LQP
At least you will see a lot of sky which always helps! Good luck with move.
Feels like lately, all I need is a Packtenna 20m efhw paired to my IC-705 or 7300.
100 qso's last night during pota activation in just over an hour.
Grab the activity while its there!
Compared to us in the UK vertical antennas in ZL are mounted upside down. On a more serious note I wonder if there is some electric field polarisation twist over that vast distance. I guess that the ionosphere can cause variations in the polarisation which may explain this.
Ah yes must try turning mine up the other way.
Only purchased ones.
Given I most regularly use just a piece of wire cut to length you'd think this is surprising, until you look at the aerials being sold with desoldered connections, broken coils, terrible match for the band advertised, etc.
Morse will always get through??!!
great points Peter... very interesting about the ongoing "mystery" of ham aerials... I wonder if the polar diagram lobes (eg which direction your half size g5rv is running) favours NZ? 73s
It fires east / west.
A vertical with elevated resonant radials might be a good experiment. There’s some fascinating research around a new design dubbed the “POTA PERformer”. What surprised me is that 1/4 wave radials on the ground are too long because they are detuned by ground proximity and pull the maximum current point away from the arial into the radial system increasing ground losses. As a community of learners and experimenters it’s exhilerating to discover what works and what doesn’t. POTA has inspired significant advances in portable antenna theory and practice.
Yes I have long preached that ground radials have a much lower resonant frequency. As I mentioned in the Video, elevated radials help, but are not the complete answer.
Wouldn't it be great if you could actually see RF energy radiating from your antenna, a bit like doppler weather maps on the TV. Dark red is the highest concentration of energy, then yellow is less, then green etc. Wait! I feel a business idea coming on! (Simon - XZ2A/XW0LP/HS0ZIB)
OK great idea. Let me know your progress!
Ive thought of that as well. To actually be able to "see" how far and high where your signal propogates and where. That would be amazing but im not sure how it would be possible. Im sure there is a way but its above my brain wave length lol
Dx commander vertical antenna's sold by martin lynch and son's..
Still a good video peter 👍
The 1960s Gotham Vertical was a killer of Novice careers if you installed the way it was advertised in QST Magazine
I’ve three antenna up covering 40m-10m, 2 are multiband. Comparing the two multi bands, a Hustler 4btv and a Cobweb. From 20-10m the Cobweb knocks spots off the Hustler, so the Hustler now is just an expensive 40m vertical for me (my other antenna is a 30m dipole).. Given the expense of a Hustler then the effort & expense of a radial system I couldn’t recommend one, mines a dummy load
Read the comment from another Hustler user who found the answer for his location.
@@watersstanton seen it alright, I’ve the same set up actually. I must make a video.. In fairness to the Hustler, it’s ground mounted and I’m comparing it to a Cobweb with resonant elements at 10m above the ground. That said, before I got the Hustler I was never happy with 10m & 15m on the Hustler.
Horses for courses Peter! Fine business.
Thank you for this video. I truly enjoy your videos as I always learn something and listening to you explain things in your gentle tone really makes for an enjoyable time.
Thank you,
Steve, k7ofg.
Very nice video, many thanks! Robert K5TPC
Thanks Robert.
I always worry about UA-camr hams who rely on modelling software as being sacrosanct. I long ago learnt the expression GI-GO (garbage in - garbage out) and I have never seen or heard of anyone checking the actual software. Is it based on suppositions as well as known facts? Might there be a minor typo error that can skew results in some circumstances? I like the idea of just getting out there and trying different antennas to see how they work in different circumstances. For example, when I was recently caravanning around the Australian outback I used a 17ft whip, 9:1 unun and "magic carpet". Some locations it seemed better than others, but was that a function of the terrain under my faraday cloth or was it just conditions as well as location? I even made 20m SSB mobile contacts from central VK5 into England, Italy and USA using 100 watts and just a Diamond SD330 whip on the bullbar of my 4WD. It's great fun to just muck around with ham radio and see what works. 73, VK4BOB
Many thanks for those observations. Much appreciated.
That you can work OZ garden to garden with simple antennas shows operator skills. Even with a KW and a tribander on a 66foot tower its often hard. Getting antenna supports even 33feet tall for 20 can be a problem. Cheap telescopic flag polls, whips and other bits can make nice half wave vertical or horizontal antennas. Multi bands are nice but, each band has different probagation and antenna layouts for best performance'
Many thanks.
Hi Peter, Here at my QTH, anything with a high current point near the ground is just inefficient, ground reflection and absorption being the largest probable cause. But obviously ground proximity and give rise to skewed radiation patterns etc (not forgetting Brewster angle). What I have been experimenting with recently, is feeding a high impedance point, to say a half wave , but shortening the length by using using capacitive loading and just getting the feet of the ground a bit. There is a certainly case for saying this shouldn't make a whole lot of difference loosing efficiency due to more current in the antenna length, therefore in a way lowering the high current point anyway. However, i have found this produces considerable positives in performance. To me this confirm that the above mentioned effects are the main drivers in vertical performance and therefore the relatively low horizontal will often win out because it negates a lot of these issues in most locations.
Interesting to read. Many thanks.
wouldn't the angle of radiation on say a horizontal dipole or doublet change with the height off the ground, being high angle low to the ground and getting to a lower angle of radiation with more height off the ground depending what band your using at the time.
That is why the low doublet on 20m is a puzzle.
It's a kind of magic. It could have something to do with earth rays and maybe we should try a dowser?
Have a question
Why does my double discone work so well on hf?
All aerials from ML&S don't work.
MMNA is just a pile of mathematics but does not know your postcode. 😀😀😀😀
And if it did things might not be any better.
0:38 Shortcut to music
just like the crap I bought off of Martin Lynch. What a load of crap that was. and the aftersales service was a lot to be desired.