IMPORTANT: For as long as this channel has existed you've showered me with donations. I am honestly blown away and touched by your support.To all those who have donated thank you. To all those who have ever thought of supporting the channel, Please instead donate to one of the charities in Ukraine that desperately need help right now. Here are a few : Ukrainian Red Cross: donate.redcrossredcrescent.org/ua/donate/~my-donation?_cv=1 Save The Children: www.savethechildren.org/us/wh Global Giving: www.savethechildren.org/us/wh
I was one of the pilots on this flight almost 20 years ago. A friend told me about this video and that he saw me in uniform near the end of the video and that he never new about this incident. There are many 10 min videos about flight 85 and also snippets from the original 45 min Smithsonian video but none with us in uniform. So I had to take a look. That photo is from when Delta put that particular 747-400 in the air museum in ATL and had us as the guest of honor that day for the opening ceremonies. Frank and I where still working and John and Mike had since retired when they took that photo of us on the upper deck looking toward the cockpit. I ended up with 25 years on the 747-400, and one fun day....
Our neighbour and great friend was a 747 First Officer. He loved that plane, and said it was a pleasure to fly. You all showed superb airmanship that day, that's for sure, and are now an historical figure ! Thanks for commenting here, it will give all who see your words a thrill. Not as big a thrill as you gave your passengers I suspect :)
@@Emale2000 We were using it much sooner then what the video stated. We we very conscious of over rudder usage from what happened with the American crash out of JFK
What a great day it is for me I've binge watched this videos for hours and read a comment from a passenger in the Olympic airlines 747 that was saved by it's pilots then now a comment from a 747 pilot who saved hundreds of people's lives God bless you all and thanks to this channel.
I think CRM has been the most valuable tool in aviation history. It has saved countless lives and should never be underestimated. The power of human problem solving when working together is by far the best way to manage any emergency.
Yosetime "Humans" are the ones that cause the problems in the first place, but they wait until some disaster takes place before they do anything about it.
John Hansen and I were friends when he was based in Detroit and lived in Ann Arbor. Flew with him many times in his immaculate Ryan PT22. A master pilot indeed.
@@EFFEZE No lie, John and I were friends for many years until he left DTW flying 727s to go to MSP flying 74s. Believe what you want, you are a non- issue to me.
I was on this flight headed to the Philippines by way of Narita with a friend of mine that day...The incident happened just after the dinner service and a few hours after I had taken a mild sleeping aid...I was pretty much "out of it" and felt the roll to the left but the recovery back to the right was pretty severe and "bounced" the plane which opened up many of the overhead bins...We really had no real idea what was taking place and there was an emergency declared so we turned back around to Alaska...Fortunately this plane had a secondary lower rudder which kept us from turning upside down and becoming fish food...This was one of only a few jets in the fleet that has this system (or so I have read)...I/we got very lucky that day...Only found out that my life had been spared just a few years ago when X-Pilot ran this story...God Bless all those pilots on the flight deck that day...
i remember watching the Air Crash Investigation episode into this flight, the crew did a brilliant job working together. the senior captain and junior F/O did a great job taking it in turns flying the damaged plane back to Anchorage
I'm doing a kind of therapy that is also abbreviated CRM and every time my therapist brings it up, I end up talking about the importance of crew resource management in air disasters, it is kind of ridiculous.
@@elen5871 admittedly I had to look up what CRM also stood for. I hadn't heard of it and tbh it may be worth looking into more (also have borderline personality due to trauma during adolescence and DBT has its limits)
I’m enjoying these success stories more than the horrific accidents. There’s still interesting investigations into why, and there’s a relatively happy ending.
And it was the test plane. Perhaps the forces the PCU endured during the plane's life as a test aircraft put it on the road to failure. Would explain why no other 747 had any similar problem.
Most pilots go through their entire careers without ever being tested by a true emergency, Those passengers were lucky that the guys up front had 'The Right Stuff'.
There are a number of incidents in which a badly damaged 747 safely landed by its brilliant crew. After watching all these episodes about 747, i think that it is called "queen of the sky" for a reason
I remember this incident. Definitely heroic. Additionally, superhuman strength kicked in and ultimately was the primary factor for preventing an unrecoverable upset. I have heard (unverified) reports that when 747 simulators were programmed to emulate this failure, some pilots could not recover from the initial upset, and others could not land. In every case, the simulation resulted in a crash. So, it's thought that adrenaline played a definite factor in the good outcome. I'm curious to see if those reports are accurate... Also, there were/are some backseat "engineers" who say that a design flaw existed in the manifold piston design, and that it should have been easily caught and redesigned. Well, they're wrong, and here's why: The assembly's design and manufacturing not only exceeded the requirements and specifications of the day, it passed every rigorous test, even in extreme environmental conditions. It wasn't until the assembly was subjected to the EXACT same environmental and flight conditions as the incident flight, and IN SEQUENCE, that the assembly failed. When it failed under test, it failed at exactly the same time and environmental conditions as the incident flight. In other words, while "flying" the assembly-under-test, in exactly the same transitory environmental and conditions as the incident flight, the assembly failed when it reached the same "position" as the incident plane. That allowed the engineers to identify the cause. It's important to point out that the assembly did not fail due to a defect or design flaw, but under a highly specific transitory set of circumstances. The cause of the failure was identified as the result of the specific SEQUENTIAL heating and cooling to specific temperatures and at a the same air density fluctuations, which caused an out-of-tolerence differential expansion rate between the piston and manifold, which in turn allowed the high-pressure hydraulic fluid to bypass the piston and jam the piston "open", which caused the hard-over deflection. The tests were repeated, and the cause was verified. The assembly was updated, and the problem fixed.
"The cause of the failure was identified as the result of the specific SEQUENTIAL heating and cooling to specific temperatures and at a the same air density fluctuations" a clear example of a textbook "edge case". "So, it's thought that adrenaline played a definite factor in the good outcome." -- I believe so. I mean, in simulators, if one fails then it's just "end of simulation". But in the actual flight, it's the lives of 400+ people _plus_ their own lives. You bet one will expend 120% effort.
Hey, my dad's name is Mike Fagan! Different guy tho, my old man hated flying. He said it was because every time he got on a plane, the government would send him to Vietnam.
I miss that Boeing of old, an engineering company who built great things. Totally love flying in the Queen of the Skies. Now, Boeing is just another corporate greed.
@@alhanes5803 A marvel of corporate greed, Trying to keep up with a more innivative french company, By creating planes that killed 300 people with lives and families in under 5 years, A truly marvelous killing machine
This particular flight is actually the very best kind of flight there is in all of aviation! Something very wrong happened, but nobody died, so the all of the flying world discovered a hideous issue lurking, but no blood was lost & you can't beat that 😉 Outstanding job by the entire flight crew here 💪👍
I had rented a C 206. After take off, with 5 passengers, the airplane started skidding to the left. The faster I went, the worse it got. I had to stand on the right rudder as hard as I could. I circled back and slowed to land and it got better. I had no way to know what would happen on touch down. We landed normally. Upon inspection I found the nose strut would not fully extend and the wind turned it sideways causing the yaw. When I slowed, the centering springs were strong enough to center the wheel again. The strut didn't have enough air pressure in it to fully extent the nose gear into the center lock position when there was no weight on it after lift off. It's the only trouble I've ever had while piloting.
Nice work mate, yep knowing it was a 747 I had the belief that the pilots could save that plane all because I knew it has a split rudder, Andrew. Sydney Australia, still love your work friend
Yeah Buddy!! Nice save for all involved!! 10 yrs previous NW liner on final to G.R. MI w/zero airspeed, engines spooled down for landing, stationary in Sun (very bad). On I-96 at Approx 80MPH MDOT pickup's driver sat on windowsill swerving while pointing at Capt who took hint so full gas, wheels up, incr to full flaps, nose slightly down, entered downdraft pickup had just exited, & disappeared into woods in flat plummet w/heavy smoke. In rearview MDOT driver saw liner gradually exit woods rising to North. Capt had no chance but managed to save all although entire cabin crew serious injuries as had been checking belts, & F.O. sure he was dead. Very sad, but got worse. Plane ruinated pulling out of downdraft so no radios, no COM w/cabin, all alone Capt flew North to empty sky, then E towards Lansing passing MDOT pickup, turned around flying W slowly way below minimums, gently waggled wings & waved piece of paper on side window to say thanks. Pickup driver waved w/lights & beacon on to say "You're welcome...no problem"! NOV '96 the two met again by chance at TPA Pilot's Lounge. Capt gassin' on about his G.R. experience w/windshear, but couldn't remember sequence of corrective actions, so MDOT driver spoke up w/same, but Capt leaned over table to check MDOT I.D....& said "I've been lookin' for you...would you like to join us"? MDOT driver as broke & laid off joined Capt & his three buddies plus even got upgrade from Hamburger Special to T-Bone....told you this guy was appreciative!! Capt updated driver on how everything went for him after incident. He said gave himself clearance to approach G.R., so returned & gave himself permission to land w/best long landing in career as controls all "mooshie"(?)! Airport deserted so gave himself clearance to taxi & approach gate. F.O. still terrified so no help, and had to shut down aircraft himself. Soon heard door open w/sounds of Company & Medical Staff to attend to passengers & crew, so continued w/plane. Finally poor F.O. retrieved and Capt was all alone. Nobody else around, so scooted down late luggage stairway, looked back up at nice upward vee of her wings AND THEY WERE GONE! Had been replaced by pair of droopin' excuse for wings so thought he was in trouble. On ground he saw these oak limbs driven in liner's belly so knew he was trouble. Capt was pullin' on an oak limb when GRPD Ofcr double clicked em' saying "You're under arrest for tampering with evidence, leaving scene of accident, and joyriding an airplane". Capt dragged by Officer over to Terminal, up the stairs, then past his deplaned but terrified passengers, and then dragged to Tower before 4 inquisitors w/questions for which he had few answers. FAA Official asked GRPD Ofcr to remove cuffs after which interrogation commenced. They didn't learn much as Capt said he didn't know much other than caught in windshear with wicked downdraft...which they didn't believe. F.O. was free to go but refused Company transport, rented a car, and drove back to Minn/St. Paul. FAA jerked Capt's tickets except those written by GRPD & suspended from duty free to find way home. Capt given option for reinstatement, by completing Training including Exam, Flight Check, & purchase of new Ticket for every piece of equipment NW Orient flew which were a bunch. TA DA...Capt did it, paid the dough, put back on flight status and here he was current date AND WITH DRIVER OF MDOT PICKUP! Capt gave Favorite Waitress large tip for hard stock dinner napkin she hustled up, where MDOT driver wrote details of their meeting that date w/Capt, a SW Capt, & their F.O.s as Witnesses. On similar note, NTSB had done their once over investigation as obviously not dealing with Sully yet for piss sake! At least this guy had brought crippled liner back to gate such as it was! On further review, NTSB had found Company said plane's wings had 4 breaks in main wing spar from pullout, radios out, overhead bins damaged, wiring and metal surfaces all over craft stretched out, and then there was havin' to remove those tree limbs from the belly proving Pilot Error as obvious below minimums. NTSB went to MDOT who certified they had no trucks near I-96 at time/date in question. NTSB being thorough had NWS certify no windshear nor downdraft possible near incident location at time of incident so CAPT Guilty as Charged & ticket suspension by FAA proper. On final note, SPRING '97 MDOT driver recalled to work & only one in office after lunch on rain day, when call from MDOT Deputy Director came in. He asked for Project Manager, but told no can do as still out to lunch, but can have him call you back. Deputy Director asked for employee involved in G.R. windshear incident w/liner at airport few years back, and this was poor schmuck that had answered phone so said "Speaking". Deputy Director very cordial with him and said had NTSB Investigator there who needs to ask a few questions about G.R. windshear incident. Investigator also not really angry & said was looking at dinner Napkin w/amazing explanation of windshear/downdraft incident at G.R. few years back written out NOV '96 at TPA Pilot's Lounge. Further, Investigator said had travel voucher for that date proving he was there and time sheet proving he was on duty, so question is were you there as your certification on napkin states or not? NTSB Investigator assured all on napkin true but please don't tell Project Engineer as would be fired for driving his truck like that. Investigator laughed and said Deputy Director listening in (also laughing), and that will be no problem. Investigator said rough estimate would be Capt would get his $300,000+ retraining expenses refunded plus lost wages etc and any other expenses due. Investigator said NWS had changed their findings 180 degrees as had guessed the first time, and actual check specified there was heavy windshear at site and time of incident, so as such NWS at G.R. Airport would get priority for new Doppler Weather Radar after Boulder Colorado...wasn't that lucky!! He said he was really glad and really proud to get this one straightened out, and thanked MDOT driver for his efforts day of incident. Bullet dodged, in 2010 MDOT Driver retired to Florida, AND I AIN'T A GOING BACK!!
Sweet, always love when you do these. Thank you for the informative and terrifying vids. Love the way you break down the dense information to make the NTSB reports readable.
This is one of the most instructive incidents. It shows what teamwork and discipline can accomplish. They had such an intimate knowledge of the systems - the tiller override bring maybe the best example here. Good work in putting this one together.
The control problems are reminiscent of UA Flight 232, the DC-10 with the catastrophic engine failure, where the crew had to use differential thrust to control the aircraft to (partially) survivable landing. Fortunately Northwest Flight 85 turned out better, thanks for the video.
Im about to major in business in university. Although I do enjoy learning it and seeing it in real life, I sometimes forget the importance of it because it all feels like organised common sense. But we truly underestimate the power of common sense. Watching these success stories and tragedies back to back makes me appreciate the way human resource management (recruitment, training, management/leadership style and corporate culture) and operations management (quality control and maintenance) has been the difference between life or death for thousands of people.
I used to go plane spotting at DTW back in the mid 1990's. I parked in an area just beyond the perimeter fence. It provided a view of the international terminal. Straight ahead from where I parked was runway 21R. Since then many physical changes have been made to the airport; some of which included adding an additional runway. Today the area I spotted from is no longer there. I always used my binoculars and an air scanner. I've watched Northwest Airlines flt 85 take off many times.
I recently found out that the Anchorage airport is now one of the busiest in the world for cargo. It’s a refueling point that allows planes from overseas to carry less fuel and more cargo while on the way to the North America.
The funny thing is that Anchorage used to be choc-full of passenger airplanes doing refueling when their range was not as great as today's planes. Then after passenger planes get better range-wise, Anchorage started to see less and less planes ... then it got a second life -- and this time likely for good -- as a refueling point for cargo planes.
The manufacture of the rudder's PCU also changed the design to include stop blocks inside the manifold so in the incalculably unlikely event this does ever happen again that piston can't move farther than intended.
@@roylavecchia1436 Yeah, the leader of Ukraine who said that " I don't need a ride, I need weapons" Okay so I didn't quote it exactly right. When the US offered to remove him away from Putin's attack, Zelensky basically answered that he needed supplies to stay and fight for his country..
You stated we can find links in the description of two other videos you made covering rudder issues on two other 737's but I can't find the links. By the way. I love your videos. Thank you for taking the time to research all of the accidents and putting a beautiful video together for the world to enjoy.
Perhaps that component got dropped, or had something dropped on it, during assembly or a maintenance procedure, causing a crack to start? After that, cycling or vibration creeps a crystal at a time.
I remember seeing this covered on MAYDAY (whether it was NatGeo or discovery, i can't remember) and I watched the whole thing front to back when it was on TV It was the first time I ever saw anything Air Crash Investigation related and I was hooked on from that point Watching planes crash in shows like those (and even their clips on UA-cam) and this channel has somehow never given me a fear of flying.
Rudder hard overs have crashed countless planes. The crashes are usually dramatic and violent too. Extremely scary situation and good piloting. Good piloting, particularly in extreme stress situations is a skill I worry is slowly weening away in the industry as dependency on automation takes over. Don't get me wrong computer fly by wire is going to be safer and more consistent than a human 99% of the time, but boy oh boy you better hope you have a Sully in the cockpit for those 1% of times.
I see this plane just about every day, as Delta displays it at their Atlanta flight museum. Every time I pass it, I think how everyone on it could have been killed. Thank God that didn't happen!
I wouldn't say landings are relatively dangerous on a good day. They're just an intense part of the flight process, and require the ability to multitask, have situational awareness & give 100% concentration.
I took that to mean dangerous relative to other phases of flight, which is true - bit of weasel wording there imo, technically correct but pretty misleading.
Your channel gets better and better with each video. This is an excellent account and investigation of this flight. By the way I believe this 747 was only the second 747 ever made. But I may be wrong.
Dead zones over the Atlantic are still there and will be for a long time bc of how radio signals work it would cost to much to extend the range all the way scross the atlantic
Pretty sure that someone at Starlink would have been thinking about that. Would hope so in any case. Having an Internet connection available to aircraft throughout flights would be a boon to the industry. Telemetry data in real time. One day.
Aircraft have HF (shortwave) communication frequencies available that can generally reach land. It takes some skill to find the right frequency to reach a given location though. Propagation depends on time of day and other conditions. In an emergency, unless you have already established communications, it is going to be quicker and easier to put out a call on the (VHF) emergency channel and get a relay through another aircraft. I'm a ham radio guy, and have talked easily with Australia from southern CA with a 100 W radio and a simple antenna. Also to US Virgin Islands with a little better antenna.
Mini, thank you for another incident told factually. You let the accomplishment of the pilots speak for itself and highlighted the CRM aspect of the recovery. A few of the commenters have gone into the engineering failure and the fact that most pilots in the simulator can't land it safely. Again, 👏👏!
I flew Northwest on that route a couple times in 2002 flying to/from here in the Philippines. Thankfully, no problems with Northwest flights, and later Delta.
I learned that the split rudder on the 747 helped a lot as one of the two split sections was operative and it was that which the incredibly skilled pilots used to get just enough control to avoid disaster. It makes me wonder why more planes don't have the split rudder design. If the rudder had been all one piece I suppose they wouldn't have had much control at all and the plane would have gone the same was as those two 737 classics with jammed rudders which crashed in the 1990s with everyone killed..
Great video. Id like to see a summary of NW Flt 255 crash in DTW I believe in 1986. I was a young kid a few miles away at family and still remember hearing the impact boom.
The specific aircraft involved was actually the prototype for the 747-400. I don't know if there were any conclusions whether its original flight tests made it unique enough to have caused the fatigue cracks. I assume they concluded not otherwise we would have heard about it by now.
I wondered when the plane crashed in Iowa back in the 80's, why they bothered to have 3 separate hydraulic lines when they run the lines so close together that if one was damaged, the other 2 we're also damaged as well. I believe it's still that way.
I had the privilege of flying with those amazing pilots many times. We really miss that 747-400. One of my flight attendant colleagues working that flight said that they were encouraged to ditch at some point. Don't know if Dave can comment on this. How utterly exhausting it was for them to do what they did! Watched the reenactment on Air Disasters. I do have to say the representation of the lead flight attendant's actions and jumpseat area was not realistic.
It is incidents like these that argue against reducing the cockpit crew to one, or even no human pilot. The automatic pilot is obviously useless in these cases. Short version, human pilots are worth their weight in gold, and then some.
IMPORTANT: For as long as this channel has existed you've showered me with donations. I am honestly blown away and touched by your support.To all those who have donated thank you.
To all those who have ever thought of supporting the channel, Please instead donate to one of the charities in Ukraine that desperately need help right now.
Here are a few :
Ukrainian Red Cross: donate.redcrossredcrescent.org/ua/donate/~my-donation?_cv=1
Save The Children: www.savethechildren.org/us/wh
Global Giving: www.savethechildren.org/us/wh
donated, bro. appreciate your content and always look forward to viewing.
i think you put the same link on two of them
You're a good man!
That's what heroes do
Iv always admired you're channel but now I love it for supporting all those poor Ukrainians displaced by a war over nothing? Thank you again.
I was one of the pilots on this flight almost 20 years ago. A friend told me about this video and that he saw me in uniform near the end of the video and that he never new about this incident. There are many 10 min videos about flight 85 and also snippets from the original 45 min Smithsonian video but none with us in uniform. So I had to take a look. That photo is from when Delta put that particular 747-400 in the air museum in ATL and had us as the guest of honor that day for the opening ceremonies. Frank and I where still working and John and Mike had since retired when they took that photo of us on the upper deck looking toward the cockpit. I ended up with 25 years on the 747-400, and one fun day....
Our neighbour and great friend was a 747 First Officer. He loved that plane, and said it was a pleasure to fly. You all showed superb airmanship that day, that's for sure, and are now an historical figure ! Thanks for commenting here, it will give all who see your words a thrill. Not as big a thrill as you gave your passengers I suspect :)
Great job bringing this 747 back & avoiding disaster. But why did it take so long to realize using asymmetric thrust?
@@Emale2000 We were using it much sooner then what the video stated. We we very conscious of over rudder usage from what happened with the American crash out of JFK
@@Emale2000 You read my mind! First thing that I would do and glad they resorted to that early.
What a great day it is for me I've binge watched this videos for hours and read a comment from a passenger in the Olympic airlines 747 that was saved by it's pilots then now a comment from a 747 pilot who saved hundreds of people's lives God bless you all and thanks to this channel.
I've sat in the cockpit of this plane. It is currently on display at the Delta Museum in Atlanta.
I think CRM has been the most valuable tool in aviation history. It has saved countless lives and should never be underestimated. The power of human problem solving when working together is by far the best way to manage any emergency.
Except for the emergency of being attacked by a wild animal. Human instincts are better for that.
I heard that the aviation industry wants to reduce the amounts of pilots to 1. So, that means the opposite of CRM. Talk about greed.
@@nnelg8139 let's be honest, the chance plane will encounter dragon is zero
Yosetime
"Humans" are the ones that cause the problems in the first place, but they wait until some disaster takes place before they do anything about it.
I wish more workplaces would adopt it.
John Hansen and I were friends when he was based in Detroit and lived in Ann Arbor.
Flew with him many times in his immaculate Ryan PT22. A master pilot indeed.
Bro ,come on mate. Why lie to get a few likes from strangers on the internet 😂
@@EFFEZE No lie, John and I were friends for many years until he left DTW flying 727s to go to MSP flying 74s. Believe what you want, you are a non- issue to me.
Good stuff thank you for sharing!!!🙏👍✈️😷
You guys still talk?
I was on this flight headed to the Philippines by way of Narita with a friend of mine that day...The incident happened just after the dinner service and a few hours after I had taken a mild sleeping aid...I was pretty much "out of it" and felt the roll to the left but the recovery back to the right was pretty severe and "bounced" the plane which opened up many of the overhead bins...We really had no real idea what was taking place and there was an emergency declared so we turned back around to Alaska...Fortunately this plane had a secondary lower rudder which kept us from turning upside down and becoming fish food...This was one of only a few jets in the fleet that has this system (or so I have read)...I/we got very lucky that day...Only found out that my life had been spared just a few years ago when X-Pilot ran this story...God Bless all those pilots on the flight deck that day...
ok
Hope you enjoy a happy and meaningful long life
🧢
Well, did you finish your dinner?
I just realized I took this same exact route in 2005, I wonder if it was the same plane even. That had to be terrifying!
i remember watching the Air Crash Investigation episode into this flight, the crew did a brilliant job working together. the senior captain and junior F/O did a great job taking it in turns flying the damaged plane back to Anchorage
Yeah, really impressive, surprised it's not more commonly discussed as a CRM case study. Hadn't heard about this incident until finding this video.
@@AviationHorrors
I had this incident in class.
I'm doing a kind of therapy that is also abbreviated CRM and every time my therapist brings it up, I end up talking about the importance of crew resource management in air disasters, it is kind of ridiculous.
Great story, love it!
Lol
I know i shouldn't laugh, but this is a thing i would totally do (dx of autism)
@@cassandrakarpinski9416 same lol
@@elen5871 admittedly I had to look up what CRM also stood for. I hadn't heard of it and tbh it may be worth looking into more (also have borderline personality due to trauma during adolescence and DBT has its limits)
I’m enjoying these success stories more than the horrific accidents. There’s still interesting investigations into why, and there’s a relatively happy ending.
I hear that Reggie..Im hooked and binge watching AND I make sure the last couple I watch before bed are successful endings😉
Most people don’t enjoy horrific accidents. You say that like you are an outlier.
Fun fact: this particular aircraft happened to be the very first 747-400 ever built.
its also on display in the delta museum
And it was the test plane. Perhaps the forces the PCU endured during the plane's life as a test aircraft put it on the road to failure. Would explain why no other 747 had any similar problem.
Most pilots go through their entire careers without ever being tested by a true emergency, Those passengers were lucky that the guys up front had 'The Right Stuff'.
There are a number of incidents in which a badly damaged 747 safely landed by its brilliant crew. After watching all these episodes about 747, i think that it is called "queen of the sky" for a reason
Could you list a few? I’m looking for new video topics
I remember this incident. Definitely heroic. Additionally, superhuman strength kicked in and ultimately was the primary factor for preventing an unrecoverable upset.
I have heard (unverified) reports that when 747 simulators were programmed to emulate this failure, some pilots could not recover from the initial upset, and others could not land. In every case, the simulation resulted in a crash. So, it's thought that adrenaline played a definite factor in the good outcome. I'm curious to see if those reports are accurate...
Also, there were/are some backseat "engineers" who say that a design flaw existed in the manifold piston design, and that it should have been easily caught and redesigned. Well, they're wrong, and here's why:
The assembly's design and manufacturing not only exceeded the requirements and specifications of the day, it passed every rigorous test, even in extreme environmental conditions.
It wasn't until the assembly was subjected to the EXACT same environmental and flight conditions as the incident flight, and IN SEQUENCE, that the assembly failed.
When it failed under test, it failed at exactly the same time and environmental conditions as the incident flight. In other words, while "flying" the assembly-under-test, in exactly the same transitory environmental and conditions as the incident flight, the assembly failed when it reached the same "position" as the incident plane. That allowed the engineers to identify the cause.
It's important to point out that the assembly did not fail due to a defect or design flaw, but under a highly specific transitory set of circumstances.
The cause of the failure was identified as the result of the specific SEQUENTIAL heating and cooling to specific temperatures and at a the same air density fluctuations, which caused an out-of-tolerence differential expansion rate between the piston and manifold, which in turn allowed the high-pressure hydraulic fluid to bypass the piston and jam the piston "open", which caused the hard-over deflection. The tests were repeated, and the cause was verified. The assembly was updated, and the problem fixed.
"The cause of the failure was identified as the result of the specific SEQUENTIAL heating and cooling to specific temperatures and at a the same air density fluctuations" a clear example of a textbook "edge case".
"So, it's thought that adrenaline played a definite factor in the good outcome." -- I believe so. I mean, in simulators, if one fails then it's just "end of simulation". But in the actual flight, it's the lives of 400+ people _plus_ their own lives. You bet one will expend 120% effort.
@@PanduPoluan Agreed. 👍
🌸 Thank you for your detailed yet simple explanation. It helped me understand what the failure was.
One of my former elementary school teachers was on this flight! The story was a huge part of my early love for aviation
Hey, my dad's name is Mike Fagan! Different guy tho, my old man hated flying. He said it was because every time he got on a plane, the government would send him to Vietnam.
Lol
First, thanks to the cockpit crew.
Second, thanks to Boeing for the split rudder and building the 747 to withstand the stresses created by this issue.
I miss that Boeing of old, an engineering company who built great things. Totally love flying in the Queen of the Skies.
Now, Boeing is just another corporate greed.
@@PanduPoluan
Actually, the Max Is a marvel of engineering if you've ever flown it.
@@alhanes5803 A marvel of corporate greed, Trying to keep up with a more innivative french company, By creating planes that killed 300 people with lives and families in under 5 years, A truly marvelous killing machine
This particular flight is actually the very best kind of flight there is in all of aviation! Something very wrong happened, but nobody died, so the all of the flying world discovered a hideous issue lurking, but no blood was lost & you can't beat that 😉
Outstanding job by the entire flight crew here 💪👍
I had rented a C 206. After take off, with 5 passengers, the airplane started skidding to the left. The faster I went, the worse it got. I had to stand on the right rudder as hard as I could. I circled back and slowed to land and it got better. I had no way to know what would happen on touch down. We landed normally. Upon inspection I found the nose strut would not fully extend and the wind turned it sideways causing the yaw. When I slowed, the centering springs were strong enough to center the wheel again. The strut didn't have enough air pressure in it to fully extent the nose gear into the center lock position when there was no weight on it after lift off.
It's the only trouble I've ever had while piloting.
Interesting name
@@kkmac7247 lol
The ones where everyone survives are always my prefered ones. Those pilots were amazing.
Nice work mate, yep knowing it was a 747 I had the belief that the pilots could save that plane all because I knew it has a split rudder,
Andrew. Sydney Australia, still love your work friend
Yeah Buddy!! Nice save for all involved!! 10 yrs previous NW liner on final to G.R. MI w/zero airspeed, engines spooled down for landing, stationary in Sun (very bad). On I-96 at Approx 80MPH MDOT pickup's driver sat on windowsill swerving while pointing at Capt who took hint so full gas, wheels up, incr to full flaps, nose slightly down, entered downdraft pickup had just exited, & disappeared into woods in flat plummet w/heavy smoke. In rearview MDOT driver saw liner gradually exit woods rising to North. Capt had no chance but managed to save all although entire cabin crew serious injuries as had been checking belts, & F.O. sure he was dead. Very sad, but got worse. Plane ruinated pulling out of downdraft so no radios, no COM w/cabin, all alone Capt flew North to empty sky, then E towards Lansing passing MDOT pickup, turned around flying W slowly way below minimums, gently waggled wings & waved piece of paper on side window to say thanks. Pickup driver waved w/lights & beacon on to say "You're welcome...no problem"!
NOV '96 the two met again by chance at TPA Pilot's Lounge. Capt gassin' on about his G.R. experience w/windshear, but couldn't remember sequence of corrective actions, so MDOT driver spoke up w/same, but Capt leaned over table to check MDOT I.D....& said "I've been lookin' for you...would you like to join us"? MDOT driver as broke & laid off joined Capt & his three buddies plus even got upgrade from Hamburger Special to T-Bone....told you this guy was appreciative!! Capt updated driver on how everything went for him after incident. He said gave himself clearance to approach G.R., so returned & gave himself permission to land w/best long landing in career as controls all "mooshie"(?)! Airport deserted so gave himself clearance to taxi & approach gate. F.O. still terrified so no help, and had to shut down aircraft himself. Soon heard door open w/sounds of Company & Medical Staff to attend to passengers & crew, so continued w/plane. Finally poor F.O. retrieved and Capt was all alone. Nobody else around, so scooted down late luggage stairway, looked back up at nice upward vee of her wings AND THEY WERE GONE! Had been replaced by pair of droopin' excuse for wings so thought he was in trouble. On ground he saw these oak limbs driven in liner's belly so knew he was trouble. Capt was pullin' on an oak limb when GRPD Ofcr double clicked em' saying "You're under arrest for tampering with evidence, leaving scene of accident, and joyriding an airplane". Capt dragged by Officer over to Terminal, up the stairs, then past his deplaned but terrified passengers, and then dragged to Tower before 4 inquisitors w/questions for which he had few answers. FAA Official asked GRPD Ofcr to remove cuffs after which interrogation commenced. They didn't learn much as Capt said he didn't know much other than caught in windshear with wicked downdraft...which they didn't believe. F.O. was free to go but refused Company transport, rented a car, and drove back to Minn/St. Paul. FAA jerked Capt's tickets except those written by GRPD & suspended from duty free to find way home. Capt given option for reinstatement, by completing Training including Exam, Flight Check, & purchase of new Ticket for every piece of equipment NW Orient flew which were a bunch. TA DA...Capt did it, paid the dough, put back on flight status and here he was current date AND WITH DRIVER OF MDOT PICKUP! Capt gave Favorite Waitress large tip for hard stock dinner napkin she hustled up, where MDOT driver wrote details of their meeting that date w/Capt, a SW Capt, & their F.O.s as Witnesses.
On similar note, NTSB had done their once over investigation as obviously not dealing with Sully yet for piss sake! At least this guy had brought crippled liner back to gate such as it was! On further review, NTSB had found Company said plane's wings had 4 breaks in main wing spar from pullout, radios out, overhead bins damaged, wiring and metal surfaces all over craft stretched out, and then there was havin' to remove those tree limbs from the belly proving Pilot Error as obvious below minimums. NTSB went to MDOT who certified they had no trucks near I-96 at time/date in question. NTSB being thorough had NWS certify no windshear nor downdraft possible near incident location at time of incident so CAPT Guilty as Charged & ticket suspension by FAA proper.
On final note, SPRING '97 MDOT driver recalled to work & only one in office after lunch on rain day, when call from MDOT Deputy Director came in. He asked for Project Manager, but told no can do as still out to lunch, but can have him call you back. Deputy Director asked for employee involved in G.R. windshear incident w/liner at airport few years back, and this was poor schmuck that had answered phone so said "Speaking". Deputy Director very cordial with him and said had NTSB Investigator there who needs to ask a few questions about G.R. windshear incident. Investigator also not really angry & said was looking at dinner Napkin w/amazing explanation of windshear/downdraft incident at G.R. few years back written out NOV '96 at TPA Pilot's Lounge. Further, Investigator said had travel voucher for that date proving he was there and time sheet proving he was on duty, so question is were you there as your certification on napkin states or not? NTSB Investigator assured all on napkin true but please don't tell Project Engineer as would be fired for driving his truck like that. Investigator laughed and said Deputy Director listening in (also laughing), and that will be no problem. Investigator said rough estimate would be Capt would get his $300,000+ retraining expenses refunded plus lost wages etc and any other expenses due. Investigator said NWS had changed their findings 180 degrees as had guessed the first time, and actual check specified there was heavy windshear at site and time of incident, so as such NWS at G.R. Airport would get priority for new Doppler Weather Radar after Boulder Colorado...wasn't that lucky!! He said he was really glad and really proud to get this one straightened out, and thanked MDOT driver for his efforts day of incident. Bullet dodged, in 2010 MDOT Driver retired to Florida, AND I AIN'T A GOING BACK!!
Sweet, always love when you do these. Thank you for the informative and terrifying vids. Love the way you break down the dense information to make the NTSB reports readable.
Glad to be of service!
This is one of the most instructive incidents. It shows what teamwork and discipline can accomplish. They had such an intimate knowledge of the systems - the tiller override bring maybe the best example here. Good work in putting this one together.
You tell any story so well. Such talent. 👍🏻🇬🇧
The control problems are reminiscent of UA Flight 232, the DC-10 with the catastrophic engine failure, where the crew had to use differential thrust to control the aircraft to (partially) survivable landing. Fortunately Northwest Flight 85 turned out better, thanks for the video.
Man, that old 90's red and grey Northwest livery looked so smart.
"Landings are relatively dangerous on a good day." Thanks for that. Just what I needed to hear before getting on a plane as a nervous flyer.
My teenage son just said the same thing! He'll be going in his first plane ride in a month
Sounds similar to the PCU failure in the 737 that caused rudder hardovers on United 585, USAir 427, and Eastwind Airlines 517
Yes those were terrible accidents- and everyone got a lucky break with the Eastwind episode if I remember that correctly.
@@houstonbalaji4768
Completely different problem.
Im about to major in business in university. Although I do enjoy learning it and seeing it in real life, I sometimes forget the importance of it because it all feels like organised common sense. But we truly underestimate the power of common sense. Watching these success stories and tragedies back to back makes me appreciate the way human resource management (recruitment, training, management/leadership style and corporate culture) and operations management (quality control and maintenance) has been the difference between life or death for thousands of people.
I used to go plane spotting at DTW back in the mid 1990's. I parked in an area just beyond the perimeter fence. It provided a view of the international terminal. Straight ahead from where I parked was runway 21R. Since then many physical changes have been made to the airport; some of which included adding an additional runway. Today the area I spotted from is no longer there. I always used my binoculars and an air scanner. I've watched Northwest Airlines flt 85 take off many times.
Amazing feat of airmanship
Must say, despite I knew the flight ended safely, I was watching your video intensely. Great job!
I recently found out that the Anchorage airport is now one of the busiest in the world for cargo. It’s a refueling point that allows planes from overseas to carry less fuel and more cargo while on the way to the North America.
The funny thing is that Anchorage used to be choc-full of passenger airplanes doing refueling when their range was not as great as today's planes. Then after passenger planes get better range-wise, Anchorage started to see less and less planes ... then it got a second life -- and this time likely for good -- as a refueling point for cargo planes.
@@PanduPoluan huh, that’s pretty interesting! Makes a lot of sense considering their current and past fuel consumptions.
@@aurtisanminer2827 Yeah, it was a very interesting story. RealLifeLore had a nice video about it: ua-cam.com/video/UMNfagIz0hs/v-deo.html
@@PanduPoluan That’s where I learned about it, actually. Love that channel!
F ANTONOV AN-225😔
Such a sad story
These pilots saved their lives first and foremost. The passengers were simply the beneficiaries of their skill and dogged determination to live.
Those people won the lotto of life that day.
The manufacture of the rudder's PCU also changed the design to include stop blocks inside the manifold so in the incalculably unlikely event this does ever happen again that piston can't move farther than intended.
Well done video! Great narration.
Amazing story
So powerful how they saved everyone
Another great investigation. You are doing a fantastic job, and I look forward to every new video you create. Thanks for all of your hard work!
Attaboy Queen and the Kings who flew her!
"if anyone is going to scratch this plane, it's gonna be me"
Dude had Zelenskyy level balls to be cracking jokes in that situation
I know, right?✈🙏🏾
Zelenskyy ?
@@roylavecchia1436 Yeah, the leader of Ukraine who said that " I don't need a ride, I need weapons"
Okay so I didn't quote it exactly right. When the US offered to remove him away from Putin's attack, Zelensky basically answered that he needed supplies to stay and fight for his country..
@@curious1366
He's as crooked as Biden.
They work well together.
Screw Zelensky. Something is fishy in Denmark
Great video as usual.
Thank you
What a beautiful livery red and Gray never looked so good good. Long live the Queen.
the 747 has been a fabulous aircraft over the decades, but having the right pilots aboard is often the X factor.
Outstanding work by the flight crew.
Well done, pilots! 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽
Nicely done video as well.
Great story as usual; really appreciate your compassionate pin. Thank you!
Great job on this story. Thank you.
These terrific pilots lived and saved lives by the old adage," Just fly the plane"✈
You stated we can find links in the description of two other videos you made covering rudder issues on two other 737's but I can't find the links.
By the way. I love your videos. Thank you for taking the time to research all of the accidents and putting a beautiful video together for the world to enjoy.
The graphics are really stunning in this video
I remember my teacher in high school saying "it's not how well you can fly, can you safely crash".
Perhaps that component got dropped, or had something dropped on it, during assembly or a maintenance procedure, causing a crack to start? After that, cycling or vibration creeps a crystal at a time.
The pilots were indeed superb in handling the stricken plane
Flew on a KLM 747 to ORD 2 days before this. Only realized this now.
"Landings are relatively dangerous on a good day." Ugh, thanks for that. :P
The good news is that most every aircraft that takes off successfully, lands successfully. 😉👍
"If you can walk away from a landing, it's a good landing. If you use the airplane the next day, it's an outstanding landing." -Chuck Yeager.
Greetings!
I send warm salyushtstions to you.
May your day be filled with Ilyushins and solyushins.
I remember seeing this covered on MAYDAY (whether it was NatGeo or discovery, i can't remember) and I watched the whole thing front to back when it was on TV
It was the first time I ever saw anything Air Crash Investigation related and I was hooked on from that point
Watching planes crash in shows like those (and even their clips on UA-cam) and this channel has somehow never given me a fear of flying.
cool, taking manually hand flying to next level
Rudder hard overs have crashed countless planes. The crashes are usually dramatic and violent too. Extremely scary situation and good piloting. Good piloting, particularly in extreme stress situations is a skill I worry is slowly weening away in the industry as dependency on automation takes over. Don't get me wrong computer fly by wire is going to be safer and more consistent than a human 99% of the time, but boy oh boy you better hope you have a Sully in the cockpit for those 1% of times.
I think this also shows how having additional flight deck crew can really help, like for instance a flight engineer, just to help spilt the burden
Fantastic video!
Props to the Boeing engineers for thinking of this redundancy.
That Dash 8 looks the best in Northwest colors my God!
I see this plane just about every day, as Delta displays it at their Atlanta flight museum. Every time I pass it, I think how everyone on it could have been killed. Thank God that didn't happen!
Love your channel!!
Terrific airmanship
I wouldn't say landings are relatively dangerous on a good day. They're just an intense part of the flight process, and require the ability to multitask, have situational awareness & give 100% concentration.
I took that to mean dangerous relative to other phases of flight, which is true - bit of weasel wording there imo, technically correct but pretty misleading.
Your channel gets better and better with each video. This is an excellent account and investigation of this flight. By the way I believe this 747 was only the second 747 ever made. But I may be wrong.
In case any passenger complains about pilot's wages THIS is what you are paying them for!
This is one of my favorite from air disasters
Your channel is excellent Sir!!!🙏👍✈️😷
Is the radio dead zone still there? If so, what measures are in place to avoid having to use a relay when something happens?
Dead zones over the Atlantic are still there and will be for a long time bc of how radio signals work it would cost to much to extend the range all the way scross the atlantic
This incident occurred over the Pacific.
Pretty sure that someone at Starlink would have been thinking about that. Would hope so in any case. Having an Internet connection available to aircraft throughout flights would be a boon to the industry. Telemetry data in real time. One day.
@@commerce-usa starlink is a scam each satellite costs billions just to launch increasing trash in space bc of the relatively low life span
Aircraft have HF (shortwave) communication frequencies available that can generally reach land. It takes some skill to find the right frequency to reach a given location though. Propagation depends on time of day and other conditions. In an emergency, unless you have already established communications, it is going to be quicker and easier to put out a call on the (VHF) emergency channel and get a relay through another aircraft.
I'm a ham radio guy, and have talked easily with Australia from southern CA with a 100 W radio and a simple antenna. Also to US Virgin Islands with a little better antenna.
First time one of these incidents occurred on the same flight number I've been on, took NW85 to Tokyo in 2008. Somewhat unnerving.
Mini, thank you for another incident told factually. You let the accomplishment of the pilots speak for itself and highlighted the CRM aspect of the recovery. A few of the commenters have gone into the engineering failure and the fact that most pilots in the simulator can't land it safely. Again, 👏👏!
nothing's more scary than your rudder deflecting out of nowhere at high alts
This is a comment to tell the algorithm that I like these videos. 😉
Amazing Pilots
One hell of a day! Pilot to ground: “Say, can you send us up another aircraft?”. “This one is really screwed up.”.
Great CRM, I like this video
I flew Northwest on that route a couple times in 2002 flying to/from here in the Philippines. Thankfully, no problems with Northwest flights, and later Delta.
I learned that the split rudder on the 747 helped a lot as one of the two split sections was operative and it was that which the incredibly skilled pilots used to get just enough control to avoid disaster. It makes me wonder why more planes don't have the split rudder design.
If the rudder had been all one piece I suppose they wouldn't have had much control at all and the plane would have gone the same was as those two 737 classics with jammed rudders which crashed in the 1990s with everyone killed..
3:15
“Brain to John:
DO NOT get on another airplane!”
Excellent!
Unrelated to the flight itself but I find Northwest's logo to be one of the most (if not the most) cleverly designed logos I've ever seen
Great video. Id like to see a summary of NW Flt 255 crash in DTW I believe in 1986. I was a young kid a few miles away at family and still remember hearing the impact boom.
Check out "Northwest Airlines Flight 255 Crashes Immediately After Take-Off | Mayday"
@@Emale2000 Wow thanks!
Great video, CRM no Doubt !! The only correction to this video is,...you show a B747-8 and not a -400 which, the flight 85 was....:)
The specific aircraft involved was actually the prototype for the 747-400. I don't know if there were any conclusions whether its original flight tests made it unique enough to have caused the fatigue cracks. I assume they concluded not otherwise we would have heard about it by now.
Informative 👍
I wondered when the plane crashed in Iowa back in the 80's, why they bothered to have 3 separate hydraulic lines when they run the lines so close together that if one was damaged, the other 2 we're also damaged as well. I believe it's still that way.
well done those pilots!
I had the privilege of flying with those amazing pilots many times. We really miss that 747-400. One of my flight attendant colleagues working that flight said that they were encouraged to ditch at some point. Don't know if Dave can comment on this. How utterly exhausting it was for them to do what they did! Watched the reenactment on Air Disasters. I do have to say the representation of the lead flight attendant's actions and jumpseat area was not realistic.
! ! ! HOLY SPLIT RUDDER ! ! !
Is it too hard to find a picture of the rudder when the plane is on the ground?
So much credit to the 4 pilots with courage and wisdom and the crew. Unbeliveable, the lives they saved. God bless you all.🤗🙋♀️👍
I'm lost, how do you go from crossing the Pacific to lined up?
It is incidents like these that argue against reducing the cockpit crew to one, or even no human pilot. The automatic pilot is obviously useless in these cases. Short version, human pilots are worth their weight in gold, and then some.
I would have just duct taped the rudder pedal to the floor or put something heavy on it because I'm to lazy to put the pedal all the way down
Airlines frown at bags over 50lbs. 🤣👍
I worked for them back then. I don't remember ever hearing about it.