Do you think Anne attacked Jane, either over the necklace or anything else? Let me know in the comments below and remember you can also find me at the following links: BUY MY BOOK (Find Your Irish Ancestors Online): amzn.to/3Z2ChnG Website (with 2 FREE DOWNLOADS): www.historycallingofficial.com/ Patreon: www.patreon.com/historycalling Amazon storefront: www.amazon.com/shop/historycalling Instagram: instagram.com/historycalling/
I don’t think Anne attacked Jane in any way. I love movies & shows that involve historical figures- I just wish (even though we are supposed to know this) that all such productions would make available a statement or disclaimer saying that they are not attempting to portray absolute truth 🤷🏻♀️
Yes, I often wish they'd do that too. There were all sorts of problems with The Crown for instance, as people thought it was portraying real history all the time and didn't appreciate the liberties taken.
I could see an attacking Jane if she saw something overt such as Henry kissing her. Many Queens or Queen concerts used to take their frustrations out on their ladies and waiting. As they couldn't take it out on their husbands. But this one just seems very far-fetched.
We do know she got after Henry about his dalliances, which annoyed him! And I do wonder if Anne WAS the sort to mistreat her ladies, given her anger and cruelty to Mary. Same time, feel like we would have heard more about it when she was being villianized, or that some of her ladies would have falsely testified against her in the sham trial?
If Anne had attacked Jane, surely Chapuys would have reported it. He despised Anne so much. Would he have passed up the chance to share such scandalous behavior as this?
@@brookelynnwu8016 Anne Boleyn was Catholic. She was raised Catholic and had never been excommunicated by the church like Henry VIII was. She gave her last confession before her execution and distributed alms, even asked the witnesses to pray for her soul. She was a reformer, but not protestant. She believed everyone should be allowed to read the Bible and thought the church had become gluttonous and abusive. She planned to use the money from the monasteries that were dissolved for lavish living and sexual immoralities to fund schools for the common people so they could learn to read the Bible. But she was always Catholic.
Anne prolly did know that Jane was being “wooed” by Henry. She had experience in that department. Also, as you have mentioned in several of your Tudor stories, the court was a quagmire of rumors, flirtations and “secrets”. Those kinds of things are rarely not spoken of. Your investigations are always thorough and I ALWAYS look forward to your Monday posts. Have a great week!
Thanks so much Amy. Yes, I'm sure she knew all about it, though I doubt that she physically attacked Jane, but it wouldn't have been wildly out of character for her, I admit. Have a lovely week too :-)
Anne was likely so unhappy at this point, but I feel like she knew the lengths Henry was prepared to go to for his 'mistresses' to outright attack Jane physically, even if she did suspect anything between them
It's clear every time you show Fuller that he knows he's getting roasted in public by History Calling. He's plainly giving you the stink-eye (especially at 3:21 where he briefly seems to consider sticking his tongue out at you), and you can almost feel his seat heating up underneath him. I almost feel sorry for the guy. The only thing that could vindicate him at this point would be the discovery of a secret Holbein sketchbook, with dated sketches of Jane with an eyepatch and a neck burn, and Anne with a bandaged (six-fingered) hand holding the necklace. We can hope, but I imagine Holbein had better sense than to commit such images to paper. Anne, Jane, and HC for the win.
Haha, yes that would be quite the find indeed! Even Holbein though (known for being very truthful in his depictions of people) probably would have applied some artistic license there and covered up such injuries. :-)
I am always delighted by how much you care about the quality and credibility of sources. If other "history" UA-camrs were more like you, the world would be much better informed.
oh to be a medieval fly on the wall to witness a fight between these two if it really happened. imagine the gowns, the gables, the jewels; it would’ve been sooo dramatic!
It really would have. What wouldn't we give for something like 'The Diary of Anne Boleyn' to be discovered stuffed down the back of a shelf somewhere in the British Library or the like?
I always found this stroy sus. Firstly, Anne had many enemies at court - between Catherine loyalists and Jane supporters - so it's difficult to imagine that such a story didn't make the papers at the time. It would show both her differences from Catherine, who suffered Henry's mistresses with quiet dignity expected from a queen, and her own uncertainty regarding her position in the King's affections. Secondly, "fight" suggests that Jane fought back, which would be a big deal considering Anne was her queen. Even if the Queen could take a swipe at you, I doubt that 'swiping back' was a thing one could do. I mean... raising ones hand on the most important woman in the kingdom? It's hard to believe Anne at least wouldn't try to use it to have Jane fired or something?
There are so many rumors. It was also mentioned that Anne had a miscarriage, because she saw Jane sitting on Henry's lap. We will never know for sure what happened behind closed doors. Great video dear History Calling. I mentioned it already, but I love your voice 😊
Thank you very much :-) Yes, she did miscarry at around the same time. Also mentioned as a reason for that was Henry's fall from his horse, though he wasn't really badly injured by that, despite the foreign-based rumours that he'd been knocked out.
I have heard a rumor too that Jane Seymour intentionally did that when she knew Anne would walk in and see them. She banked on her getting upset and having a miscarriage.
Yes, absolutely. I don't think it was a sudden change myself. When you look at his earlier treatment of Queen Catherine, Princess Mary and Thomas More, I think Henry had been heading in that direction for a while.
Well done! No such attack occurred. Anne knew of Henry’s affection toward Jane but also knew she was on borrowed time to give him a son. She’d not do anything to anger him further. She despised Jane but never attacked her physically.
Henry outwardly supporting Anne as late as April 1536 seems like a facade, a cover of what was to come. The wheels to her downfall were well in motion. It's like when Cromwell was elevated further just before everything came crashing down for him a few years later.
@@HistoryCalling Anne miscarrying in January I'm sure was a big factor as was the death of Catherine of Aragon. Anne was actually safer while Catherine was alive.
@@HistoryCalling Do you think that even if Anne produced a boy she may still have possibly been in danger? People such as Cromwell feared and resented her, they may still have wanted her out of the way. They could've spread rumours doubting the paternity of Anne's son or got people like Smeaton to say they were the father.
i have always wondered if Henry trying to get everyone to accept Anne as queen was less about Anne, and more about people accepting his authority (to declare who the queen was) especially late in her term.
i will always be appreciative of what u do! u have taught me that any story of that has been known as "history" should always be taken with a grain of salt bc we will never rlly know what happened behind closed doors when it comes to these ppl
Now we need a show made of the six Queens in afterlife along with their children, & they allow Henry out of hell once a year to show how wrong He was about all six lol like six the musical
👏👏 Great, HC! I finally got around to watching "The Tudors" and saw the scene where Anne confronted Jane. As it was with much of the series I took the history with a grain of salt although it was gratifying to watch and know most of the major players (thanks to you).Thanks for this, HC. Penny and Louie send sloppy dog kisses. 🐶🙏🏼
Oh, I'm glad you saw it. After season 1 it's actually not too bad in terms of accuracy and at least we can see where they got that pendant-ripping story from. Hello to Penny and Louie as well :-)
I don’t think Anne would attack Jane… it wouldn’t be the smart move in her situation. Anne showed till the end to be very smart in her writing and last words to appear calm, demure and loyal to Henry. Attacking Henry’s “latest mistress” would be risking Henry’s anger
I just watched this Tudors scene on UA-cam! Anne was smart but incautious. I think she might have had it been early on in their relationship before Elizabeth or if she’d had a boy, but she was smart and too worried about her own position to give others ammunition to get her sent to a nunnery. (I don’t think she thought she’d die; I think she thought she’d be offered the same choice as Catherine.)
As a result of Henry's dissolution of religious institutions, there probably wouldn't have been a convenient nunnery to send her to. I'm not sure what the analog would have been. I think you are probably right that she probably would not have goaded Henry by striking Jane. But she did have an hysterical streak, and I suppose if she were frightened enough by Henry's courting Jane, she might have struck her.
I love it that Anne and Jane were in fact surprisingly close relatives, their maternal grandmothers being half-sisters, so that they were half second cousins (Catherine Howard had the same relationship to Jane, in addition to being Anne's first cousin). So, with their descent in the female line, Anne and Jane had the same mitochondrial DNA, and passed it on to their respective children, Elizabeth I and Edward VI. The mutual great-grandmother of three of Henry's queens, Elizabeth Cheney, sounds famous for a different reason. 🙂
I love how thorough you are in your research and how you explain it all out. Why do we need to blow up these stories with garbage ? The real stories are crazy and fascinating the way they really happened.
Oh I absolutely agree. I think humans don't really change all that much over time. It's just the world around us that does. We still have largely the same psychology I believe and we always love a bit of gossip!
@@HistoryCalling I agree with you like you said there is a possibility of this happening but without a valid source verifying that it occurred it's just poppycock!
Part of me is sad to hear this incident was likely untrue, as I’ve read it so many times over the years. But thank you for always keeping it real in your amazing videos!
I believe that there is a possibility of Anne attacking Jane, especially if Jane was a bit younger than Anne and having the possibility of giving Henry his male heir, which she eventually did
I love your videos every week. Could you do one on Leopold I of Belgium and his relationship with Queen Victoria or one on his son Leopold II and his atrocious behaviour in Congo Free State. A lot has been written about this outside of Belgium but until about 20 years ago every attempt to have these books published in Belgium have always met with a veto from the royal family.
I do have a little video on Leopold I on my Patreon, as I did a main video on his first wife's wedding dress a while back. I find his story interesting, but I wonder if it would have enough pull to get people to click on it here on UA-cam? I'm not sure unfortunately. I'm not familiar at all with Leopold II.
Thank you for using the source that can be reliable given the many centuries since those times. It has always made more sense to me that after Anne Boleyn every woman lived in fear of attracting the King's attention. As two Queens did not give surviving children after the first, it is possible there was an RH factor problem, though perhaps you already have made a video speculating the miscarriage and death at or soon after birth rate for both Catherine of Aragon and Anne. Interestingly those Seymours are back in the British Royal family. ❤
There is so much hearsay about Anne's character, also her appearance. It tends to spark one's imagination after reading so many stories, historic fiction, from many sources and some obviously were not Anne's biggest fans. I read somewhere that Jane quietly observed Anne and recognized that it was in her favor to hold back from Henry's advances. If only walls could talk, what we could know about what truly happened within them.
Wow, if this was true, it must have caused quite a stir in Henry's court. Surely he would have found out about it? The other point I was looking at was that Anne was famous for her etiquette, charm and she was very well-mannered and ladylike, especially having been in France for so many years when she was younger, I'm pretty sure she'd never engage herself in this manner.. She was also aware of her own charm and beauty and we know she used them to get Henry.. so why would she feel threatened by Jane, who at the time was known to be a good girl and as Holbein's portrait of her shows that, much like myself, she wasn't exactly gifted in the looks department.. Even if at this time the king had his beady eye on Jane, I don't think Anne would have felt threatened by this in the slightest. The biggest problem is, just as you rightly pointed out, this account came over 100 years after they died so why make up such a story? Were people that gullible back then? If this event did in fact happen and the story is true then I'd be quite surprised! Thanks for this video, HC! Another brain-cog turner! 😊
Yes, while Anne is known to have had a temper, Henry had strayed before and there's no evidence she ever attacked those women either. This seems, as one other commenter put it, to be a bit of very late tabloid-style gossip.
Two phrases that pop up here reminded me of something funny: as I re-watch a lot of the HC backlog on the big TV, I use closed captioning to help me concentrate. On the occasions that the captioning is not scanned directly from HC's script, the AI clearly doesn't speak Irish. So two of my favorite mis-heard phrases are that Anne and Jane had each been a "lydian wedding", and that there's a reliable source curiously named "Used to Shop, We".
Oh it's dire at understanding my accent. Were those very early videos? I've been subtitling them myself for a long time now. I had to say those phrases out loud myself to get what they were meant to be, but I assume it's 'a lady in waiting' and 'Eustace Chapyus'?
I think there is a kernel of truth to it. There are several reports that Henry told Anne to shut her eyes and endure like her betters before her. So she voiced not liking sharing Henry unlike Cathrine who did her best to ignore his behavior. Anne might not have pulled a necklace off Jane, but she might have shown Jane her authority in other ways that people at court embellished.
I can't see this story as being true personally for the reasons stated and I'd offer two more. 1) It's such a juicy tale (and therefore irresistible to modern dramatists) that it would have been mentioned in multiple contemporary sources especially when Anne Boleyn had fallen. 2) Anne knew the game by then. Her only chance of safety was by winning Henry back and there was no way attacking Jane and making her a victim was going to help in that aim.
Yes, I agree. As bad as her temper could be, I can't think of other instances of her being violent and it's not like this was the first time Henry had strayed.
Thanks for the clear and detailed explanation. I first saw a version of this alleged incident in "the Six Wives of Henry VIII". At the time I thought it was just added for dramatic effect.
I feel like we should put a disclaimer on all our current fanfic so this mixup doesnt happen to future historians. "This is fanfic, it is not a historical recounting of events." Future scholars will thank us for it.
Current ones would thank you too, as it's annoying sometimes having to correct people's misunderstandings of history because they've just bought into whatever TV show or movie they watched.
Chapuys would definitely have mentioned something so unfavorable about Anne, I think. Is there any evidence that he told Charles about any fights like that? Im not sure that I'd even trust it from him, though, since he's pretty biased himself.
Not sure Jane actually did wish to dissuade Henry, but I don't think she cunningly pursued her mistress' downfall or indeed would be dumb enough to taunt the current queen. For sure she was going along with her brothers and Henry's wants, but I like to think she was indeed shrewd enough to follow a bit of Anne's example in avoiding being another mistress. I do wonder a bit if she looked forward to being Queen in hopes of Henry reconciling with Rome AND to advocate for Mary, who had been so mistreated by Anne, though? If the queen was going to fail, why not be her replacement?
@@HistoryCalling Especially not when some were at the time worried the King might reconcile with Anne. As your video said and as I've read before, Henry was having the Spanish envoy (I know I'm going to butcher the man's name. Chapeu? Catherine and Mary's staunch supporter) show preference to Anne and wanted the Holy Roman Emperor to do the same mere days before her indictment and downfall. I think an ego thing more than for Anne's benefit considering what happened next. Alison Weir gives Henry the usual benefit of the doubt/lessened responsibility, but I absolutely believe he was an active party to her murder and that he wanted rid of her. He was very much a man of his whims by that stage. :/
I don’t believe Ann would have attacked Jane physically - possibly verbally, in a subtle, intellectual manner… Fuller sounds as if he was the Editor of some ‘Tabloid Newspaper’ of ‘his day’, functioning at the usual, unverified levels!🤷♀️😂😘
The scene is a good addition to historical fiction because conflict is what drives a story. It's also another moment in a story that illustrates that Anne is losing her grip on power and is doomed. But I'm guessing it didn't actually happen. Anne might have confronted Jane more subtly, but I don't think she would have physically hurt her without people knowing about it.
I'll be popping off to get a copy of your history book buy guide asap! I so appreciate it, because as history both old & new even, is being re-written by those who didn't like what they read, saw in a picture frame or visited at historical sites & monuments, I've been buying history books in order to curate a decent historical record for my family & descendants. I've gained some good material & made some horrendous mistakes too. One choice _sounded great in the fly leaf_ but was so egregious as to be a 21st c. writer such a re-write zealot that I'm recycling the book rather than returning it to the 2nd hand store. Always wishing I had my own mother's many-volume collection of Will Durant's The Story of Civilization, unaffordable today. Thanks again!
You're very welcome. It's a quick read, but I use the tips in it all the time when looking at books and it only takes a minute or two to see if there are major problems with the work. I'm glad you're not putting the terrible book back into circulation :-)
Anne might have had a fiery temper, and sure, she probably confronted Jane, but it wasn’t with fists-more like with her sharp tongue (even her dad got a taste of that!). I have to admit, a jealous woman can really go overboard. But at the end of the day, Anne was a lady-smart and well-educated.
There are many reasons why I think it highly unlikely that Anne would have attacked Jane. The first is that she would not want to incur Henry’s wrath for harming his mistress. Another reason is that she would never have given her enemies any ammunition to use against her. Thirdly, she knew what was expected of her as an anointed queen and , again would not have behaved badly. I do believe that history has maligned her terribly. I also believe that she really did love Henry and was a devoted, faithful wife.
Thank you, it shows how we can begin to believe what is just repeated and repeated or shown on tv shows. Must admit, I fell for the ‘ripping the necklace off jane’ because it seemed such an Anne thing to do. Thank you for your valuable input! Setting us on the straight and narrow 🙏🙏🙏👵🇦🇺
Yes, with her known temper it isn't totally unbelievable, though there's no evidence of her being violent at any other time. The lack of an original source is highly suspect though.
Oh, the whole history of Henry and his many wives would make an amazing TV Show - reality TV type. Keeping Up with the Tudors. I can't think of another English / British monarch who has the same level of juicy relationship drama as Henry. He's really...interesting in this regard haha
There's certainly no other royal house with a list of marriages like this one, but there are some interesting parent-child relationships within the Hanoverians.
One of the main reasons I love your channel is that you have an exquisitely tuned BS detector! It is a pity that modern journalism schools do not teach students to analyze their sources as thoroughly before graduation, and publishing either slanderous or nonsensical works as alleged professionals.
I remember seeing the scene in the Tudors and thinking ‘if Jane wore that in front of Anne, she was an idiot!’ I also don’t think Anne attacked her, as she was far too proper for that
I’ve never heard that it was common practice for noblewomen of that period (let alone royal) to have physical fights. Was it? But I agree, Jane was by all accounts very careful, prim and proper for her time, and would probably never have displayed a love token from the king before being at least engaged. However, I certainly believe Henry was capable of pulling her into his lap thinking they were unobserved as he had no shame. But again, I’m back to whether this would trigger an actual physical fight between two noblewomen. Doubt it.
Definitely not common practice, no. Now I'm not saying ladies didn't ever hit their servants, but we're talking about the royal court and I can't think of an instance of a Queen attacking a lady in waiting at any point in English history.
I think your psychological approach rings true. I find it hard to believe that Jane intentionally drew Anne's attention to her (Jane's) burgeoning relationship with Henry. What a tightrope to walk, though, for Jane, for all involved I suppose: Jane associating with Anne more-or-less every day while Jane understood that Anne's husband was courting her. As it was, no matter how discreet Jane and henry might be, Anne would become aware soon enough and, when Anne had been pushed (by malicious if accurate gossip, since as we know not everyone liked or respected Anne), I could see Anne lashing out. The stress Anne was under had to be increasingly intolerable, after all. Regardless, another illuminating and well-thought-out presentation -- thank you!
Maintaining a dignified attitude in that environment was absolutely crucial. So I have no difficulty in believing that Anne knew about Jane (privacy did not exist in a Renaissance court), and that - having the temper she had and being her lady - she would not have failed to do all possible pranks on her, perhaps even to put her in embarrassment and humiliate her with unpleasant tasks. But that she bothered to put her hands on her and to make a washerwoman's riff, perhaps in front of witnesses, does not seem absolutely credible to me. Even assuming she was panicking seeing her condition at risk. She didn't lose her temper even in the Tower, you can imagine if She could allow herself doing it when was still Queen in full charge...
Although i think Anne was tempestuous enough ( to put it charitably) to do such a thing I think your arguments as as to why this never happened are conclusive well done
I believe at the time Ann was probably seeing Henry was looking past her, and aware he was looking to replace her, once she miscarried her son, but even before this with the many reports of their fights, and her threats to others. made her not exactly who he originally fell in love with, and was looking for a more submissive wife. His attitude had become more harrasable, violent, and angry since the accident. Knowing how he had treated Catherine and mary, she had to fear his rejection and loss of power, so I believe the fight between the two could very well have happened even if it was a handed-down story, one to dangerous at the time to print while both henry and ann still lived.were there is smoke there is usually truth somewhere in there.
Yes, I certainly agree he was tired of Anne and seems to have wanted a totally different personality in his next wife. Everyone remarked on how different Jane was to AB.
@@HistoryCalling glad to hear it!!! 😃truth be told i’ve been dealing with a heck of a lot these past few months. doing better now, glad to be back!! 📚 💜
In courts the reason we don't accept "hearsay" is not because of its potential for being inaccurate. Rather we don't accept it because it violates a party's right to cross examine the source of the evidence. Even on this we bend the rules in certain situations. As historians we often don't have the benefit of reliable sources who actually viewed the events. We have to rely on hearsay, multiple hearsays or even tradition. Whether to rely on it depends more on the totality of the evidence than its form. Court gossip indicates that Henry had at least one mistress while married to Anne, just as he had mistresses while married to Catherine. This suggests a number of possibilities.
Yes, nothing is impossible I'll grant you, but I'm sure this evidence would never stand up in court. Your explanation of why hearsay isn't allowed was really interesting. Thank you for sharing :-)
Thanks for using R3 as the perfect example of slander during this period. I don't believe for a second that the Jane was the cause of Anne B's downfall. I have read in various accounts that they were not exactly friendly. Cat fights were possible. Hey, what woman would tolerate her husband having mistresses. Especially when he was flouting them. A lot of what's written is likely guess work.
Yes, once you know what actually happened to his remains it just shows how many people lied about it for centuries just to get attention and basically attract the tourists of the day. All the while of course, he was lying exactly where he'd been left back in 1485.
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Hi! Just wanted to let you know that we made it through the hurricane and now are just dealing with the aftermath. Thanks for the vid! Love from Lisa in New Orleans ♥️⚜️♥️⚜️♥️
Oh that's good. I know power loss is annoying, but I guess it could have been so much worse. I hope it's up and running again now (well I assume it must be as you clearly have internet access :-) )
Oh, that's just because it's meant to help grab people's attention when they're scrolling and make them more likely to click (at least that's what I read when I was researching how to be a UA-camr back at the beginning).
@@HistoryCalling Yeah absolutely understandable. It kinda reads like 'BREAKING NEWS from 5 centuries ago', and I find it really funny. Especially in this case my brain reads it as if Anne Boleyn went after Jane Seymour with a frying pan.
I would love to know! The depiction in The Tudors was compelling. It seems something must have occurred because of the close proximity of the wine. Involved. I am always staggered by the audacity of the mistresses knowing the Queen was their responsiblity.
I know, but we could say the same about Anne and Katherine Howard too. They both got together with Henry whilst working for his previous wife. Anne ultimately lost him in much the same way she got him.
Hello History Calling 🌹🕊 I don't think it happened but it surely helped sell books. Like you said in a reply, if we only found Anne's Diary. Have a great week and love your videos. 🦁👑🐯
I can see anne doing this tho😭imagine holding out for 6 years and a women who had your previous status is coupled up with your husband…anne had been the chased so she knows the possibility of commoners being raised up…also anne loved henry i feel she believed in non sex before marriage and loyalty and thought henry changed for her in those slight 6 years
I don’t believe Jane would’ve worn a necklace or any obvious love token in public. The actual reports we have about Jane paint her as way more calculating than the popular culture belief of her as this mindless pawn.
I don't think any of this happened. Anne may have been really upset and maybe jealous of Jane, but both of them knew to behave properly. Anne was Queen and from a noble family with a reputation to preserve. Jane seems to have acted with decorum whilst Henry's eyes looked elsewhere and was from a respectable family, her honour being highly important to her. Anne will have recognised that her time as Queen was coming to an end, having been through this before, but to lose your dignity in this way, in a gossip-filled Tudor court, it is inconceiveable to me. Nope, did not happen. 🙂
I doubt it too. Anne had a temper to be sure and there are stories of her using some pretty strong words, even to her uncle, but there's nothing else to suggest she ever got violent with someone.
I think Jane was very careful in Dealing with Henry at this point. I'm sure her family groomed her on what to do and say when she got his attention and how to keep it. Anne was already stuck between a rock and a hard ballet having yet to produce a living male heir. Had she not miscarried, and gave birth to a living son, Henry would have immediately turn his attentions to his long awaited male heir and Anne's place succured. I'm not sure if Anne suspected Jane at this point or not. She may have suspected many young women in court and stressing out about it. She may have known by that point she was about to be replaced. I'm sure it caused a whole slue of mental health problems for her too. After all she had replaced a queen who failed to produce a male heir and Henry had a wandering eye. There could have been half a dozen girls at court that she was surrounded by that she could have suspected could be her replacement. So I would think Jane would have been cautious about any gifts she might receive from from Henry out of fear that Anne would catch wind of it. After all everyone loves to gossip. Which is probably where the story came from. A rumor that was started after Anne's downfall.
I have read that Hebry called Jane 'little nun", if this is true, it makes me think she wouldn't accept any gifts from. Henry. I have a request, would you consider doing a video on Margaret Moore Roper? She has always fascinated me.
Oh, interesting. I've never heard the little nun story before. I'm not sure Margaret is famous enough to do a video on (I have to be brutal and think about whether people would click on it or not), however Thomas More is on my list and when I get to him, I'm sure she'll make an appearance in that video.
Of course it is possible that Anne could have attacked Jane. Their story is like a reality show and viewers just love watching drama but without any real evidence we cant just assume Anne attacked her. I'm sure Katherine of Aragon would love to have hit Anne but there are no reports of that happening so I just don't think we can just assume Anne attacked Jane.
It would be interesting to compare this aspect of the transition from Catherine of Aragon to Anne, with that of Anne to Jane. If the stories about Anne openly wearing a necklace gifted by Henry and pretty shamelessly partying with him (more 'The Tudors' fictions?); then a tantrum over the discarded Catherine still making Henry's shirts, and demanding the Queen's jewels and royal christening robes are true, she surely got her comeuppance in full when Jane sat on Henry's knee (or not!) And I find it strange that Jane was in the background all the time. You never really think of the six wives overlapping! I'm guessing her ambitious family pushed her forward.
History is full of people "in the know " telling secrets... But they don't know they are" not in the know." Thanks. I have heard many times that Anne was Polydactyl .
Thanks HC 🖤 💛 However exciting and fun it may be to think of Anne and Jane having a Dynasty style Tudor catfight, it just seems too good to be true 😕 If either or both ladies ever got physical it would be have been well documented and gossiped about. Anything to make Anne look bad and unlady like. Also, although we don't know Jane's true personality, I can't imagine Jane deliberately goading Anne or even fighting back 😂
I've seen this story dramatized a number of times and it never fails to take me right out of the wider story because I always felt that this tale was suspect though I had no knowledge of why I'm glad you were able to pick apart the evidence and denounce it for what it most likely is - a later fabrication designed to attribute an intimate knowledge of facts on the writer which he clearly can not have But it makes no sense at all to me Why would Jane wear such a pendant in front of her Queen? Why sit on Henry's lap and later claim virtue? Why would Jane even put herself in the position of a flirtation with Henry since he had waited 7 years to marry Anne? Did she really believe Henry would cast off yet another wife for HER? I think the story of Henry's unread note has much more merit To me it was her way of telling Henry she wasn't interested in being his mistress - which is probably all he was after I think she was probably appalled by Henry's interest but acquiesced reluctantly once Anne was out of the picture She probably thought she was at court to get a good marriage offer and couldn't do better than the King Her next thought was probably "and I certainly won't object if he wants to divorce me!"
Yes, I can't imagine her wearing such a necklace in front of Anne either. It would be begging for trouble. The only point we'll differ on really is that I think Jane was all in even before Anne's death, but I'm not sure exactly when she decided 'yup, I'm gonna go for the throne'.
Thanks for this look at the evidence that Anne might have assaulted Jane. I would not have put such a thing outside the realm of possibility, if Anne was becoming frightened about her position, but someone would have seen it. It would have caused a scandal that the ambassadors at court would not have failed to report home. Jane Dormer (although not reliable as a source of evidence) was not really exiled on account of her Catholic faith. Early in Elizabeth's reign she married the Duke of Feria, a close associate of Philip II's, who was the Spanish ambassador. Feria was recalled to Spain, and his wife went with him. She did become a supporter of Catholic exiles from England. Her background was unusual (I would guess): her father's family was Catholic and her mother's Protestant; she was a childhood playmate of Edward VI.
You're right. Exiled is perhaps a bit strong for Jane's case, though I don't think she would have been comfortable back in England. She did have a very interesting life though. It's a shame she's not more famous.
I thought of that at one point, but I'm not sure there's enough info. available (and available in English too) and there's a distinct lack of portraits, which always makes my job very difficult.
I'd need to go double check it again to be sure, but yes I think it's decent enough. It's the so-called Spanish Chronicle that you've really gotta watch out for.
@@HistoryCallingI only know about it because I watched Blood, Sex & Royalty. It had the famous historian Suzannah lipscomb & Tracy Borman in it! I never seen this scenario in another movie/documentary. Wyatt was trying to get her attention but she kept ignoring him so, he took the necklace off of her neck & then in another scene, him & King Henry were playing a game against each other, the King said something like the next prize/game is mine & showed a ring of Anne's (He supposedly won from her in a dice game.) But then Wyatt shows the necklace & said I think this game/prize is his. The King then wonders if she's gave him the necklace & her virginity to Wyatt. She goes to the King to tell him, she didn't give him the necklace. Also, in the movie they show Anne, Katherine & Henry having a card game together!?!?!! & Katherine said, "I'm tired of games" & leaves... because Anne & the King were playing with their feet under the table in front of her. It's my first time hearing about this! 😳😱🤔 They said it actually happened! They might have had a few other things that I don't recall ever seeing in other movies/documentaries, but seeing that they had historian's on it I would hoped they didn't embellish the stories again!
Do you think Anne attacked Jane, either over the necklace or anything else? Let me know in the comments below and remember you can also find me at the following links:
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I don’t think Anne attacked Jane in any way. I love movies & shows that involve historical figures- I just wish (even though we are supposed to know this) that all such productions would make available a statement or disclaimer saying that they are not attempting to portray absolute truth 🤷🏻♀️
Yes, I often wish they'd do that too. There were all sorts of problems with The Crown for instance, as people thought it was portraying real history all the time and didn't appreciate the liberties taken.
@@HistoryCallingNot only that, The Crown is preferenced on it taking place in an alternate society. So it's not even in our world.
I could see an attacking Jane if she saw something overt such as Henry kissing her. Many Queens or Queen concerts used to take their frustrations out on their ladies and waiting. As they couldn't take it out on their husbands. But this one just seems very far-fetched.
We do know she got after Henry about his dalliances, which annoyed him! And I do wonder if Anne WAS the sort to mistreat her ladies, given her anger and cruelty to Mary. Same time, feel like we would have heard more about it when she was being villianized, or that some of her ladies would have falsely testified against her in the sham trial?
If Anne had attacked Jane, surely Chapuys would have reported it. He despised Anne so much. Would he have passed up the chance to share such scandalous behavior as this?
Yeah especially bc Jane is a catholic and Anne was not.
@@brookelynnwu8016 thought Anne was catholic. She died in the faith.
@@brookelynnwu8016 Anne Boleyn was Catholic. She was raised Catholic and had never been excommunicated by the church like Henry VIII was. She gave her last confession before her execution and distributed alms, even asked the witnesses to pray for her soul. She was a reformer, but not protestant. She believed everyone should be allowed to read the Bible and thought the church had become gluttonous and abusive. She planned to use the money from the monasteries that were dissolved for lavish living and sexual immoralities to fund schools for the common people so they could learn to read the Bible. But she was always Catholic.
Yes, I think that story would surely have made it back to him too, if it was so well known about that it was being reported a century later.
I’m a huge fan of Chapuys. Such a great gossip.
Yeah, Anne pulled off Jane's necklace, and she tore off Jane's weave, too. Happens in every catfight.
Her weave! You make me laugh :-)
This made me laugh out loud for real!
Sounds like my old neighborhood 😂
I HOLLERED 😂
You win the internet today!!!
When History Calls, I answer!
Very nicely punned. Thank you :-)
Anne prolly did know that Jane was being “wooed” by Henry. She had experience in that department. Also, as you have mentioned in several of your Tudor stories, the court was a quagmire of rumors, flirtations and “secrets”. Those kinds of things are rarely not spoken of. Your investigations are always thorough and I ALWAYS look forward to your Monday posts. Have a great week!
Thanks so much Amy. Yes, I'm sure she knew all about it, though I doubt that she physically attacked Jane, but it wouldn't have been wildly out of character for her, I admit. Have a lovely week too :-)
It's not like the King needs to hide his favor.
Anne was likely so unhappy at this point, but I feel like she knew the lengths Henry was prepared to go to for his 'mistresses' to outright attack Jane physically, even if she did suspect anything between them
Yes, it would be quite an extreme thing to do. After all, Catherine of Aragon never attacked her.
I suppose some people like to make Jane the true villain in Anne's downfall, rather than the actual architects of it
Yes, I think sometimes people forget this was all ultimately Henry's fault.
Anne was getting a taste of her own medicine
It's clear every time you show Fuller that he knows he's getting roasted in public by History Calling. He's plainly giving you the stink-eye (especially at 3:21 where he briefly seems to consider sticking his tongue out at you), and you can almost feel his seat heating up underneath him. I almost feel sorry for the guy. The only thing that could vindicate him at this point would be the discovery of a secret Holbein sketchbook, with dated sketches of Jane with an eyepatch and a neck burn, and Anne with a bandaged (six-fingered) hand holding the necklace. We can hope, but I imagine Holbein had better sense than to commit such images to paper. Anne, Jane, and HC for the win.
Haha, yes that would be quite the find indeed! Even Holbein though (known for being very truthful in his depictions of people) probably would have applied some artistic license there and covered up such injuries. :-)
Clever.
😂😂😂
I am always delighted by how much you care about the quality and credibility of sources. If other "history" UA-camrs were more like you, the world would be much better informed.
Thank you so much and I agree. It's a shame there's so much misinformation out there.
oh to be a medieval fly on the wall to witness a fight between these two if it really happened. imagine the gowns, the gables, the jewels; it would’ve been sooo dramatic!
It really would have. What wouldn't we give for something like 'The Diary of Anne Boleyn' to be discovered stuffed down the back of a shelf somewhere in the British Library or the like?
@@HistoryCalling exactly!!! still holding out hope lolol
I always found this stroy sus. Firstly, Anne had many enemies at court - between Catherine loyalists and Jane supporters - so it's difficult to imagine that such a story didn't make the papers at the time. It would show both her differences from Catherine, who suffered Henry's mistresses with quiet dignity expected from a queen, and her own uncertainty regarding her position in the King's affections. Secondly, "fight" suggests that Jane fought back, which would be a big deal considering Anne was her queen. Even if the Queen could take a swipe at you, I doubt that 'swiping back' was a thing one could do. I mean... raising ones hand on the most important woman in the kingdom? It's hard to believe Anne at least wouldn't try to use it to have Jane fired or something?
Yes, had it happened I would expect to see it mentioned in foreign dispatches too. You're correct too that Jane wouldn't have fought back.
There are so many rumors. It was also mentioned that Anne had a miscarriage, because she saw Jane sitting on Henry's lap. We will never know for sure what happened behind closed doors. Great video dear History Calling. I mentioned it already, but I love your voice 😊
Thank you very much :-) Yes, she did miscarry at around the same time. Also mentioned as a reason for that was Henry's fall from his horse, though he wasn't really badly injured by that, despite the foreign-based rumours that he'd been knocked out.
I have heard a rumor too that Jane Seymour intentionally did that when she knew Anne would walk in and see them. She banked on her getting upset and having a miscarriage.
@@brookelynnwu8016 coincidence is not causation
The entire Tudor dynasty would have made a great reality tv show.
And I’d love to know why Henry VIII turned into a cruel tyrant in 1536.
Great video!
Yes, absolutely. I don't think it was a sudden change myself. When you look at his earlier treatment of Queen Catherine, Princess Mary and Thomas More, I think Henry had been heading in that direction for a while.
"Keeping up with the Tudors"?
@@cherrybello”OMG, Hank, people are DYING.”
Well done! No such attack occurred. Anne knew of Henry’s affection toward Jane but also knew she was on borrowed time to give him a son. She’d not do anything to anger him further. She despised Jane but never attacked her physically.
I think so too. It also just doesn't ring true that there's no real source for this story and it only pops up a century later.
Henry outwardly supporting Anne as late as April 1536 seems like a facade, a cover of what was to come. The wheels to her downfall were well in motion. It's like when Cromwell was elevated further just before everything came crashing down for him a few years later.
Yes, it does seem odd how late in the day he was supporting her. I wonder too when the exact moment was he decided to abandon her.
@@HistoryCalling Anne miscarrying in January I'm sure was a big factor as was the death of Catherine of Aragon. Anne was actually safer while Catherine was alive.
Yes, I agree. Had she had her boy or her predecessor still alive, she probably wouldn't have been killed.
@@HistoryCalling Do you think that even if Anne produced a boy she may still have possibly been in danger?
People such as Cromwell feared and resented her, they may still have wanted her out of the way. They could've spread rumours doubting the paternity of Anne's son or got people like Smeaton to say they were the father.
i have always wondered if Henry trying to get everyone to accept Anne as queen was less about Anne, and more about people accepting his authority (to declare who the queen was) especially late in her term.
i will always be appreciative of what u do! u have taught me that any story of that has been known as "history" should always be taken with a grain of salt bc we will never rlly know what happened behind closed doors when it comes to these ppl
Thank you very much and I agree. If it was behind closed doors, it's often a little bit suspect.
Anne b and Jane lore goes HARD (I love this channel)
Yup, there are a lot of stories about them, many untrue unfortunately.
History calling is my favorite history UA-cam channel.
Thank you :-)
I absolutely LOVE your work. You do a great job and only get better. Keep it up!
Thank you very much. I'll try :-)
the housewifes of westminster
They should totally make a reality TV show called that!
Real housewives?
This comment is so good but the spelling is atrocious.
@@FormerTory92mmm.....just a comment on youtube...
Not a dissertation!
Now we need a show made of the six Queens in afterlife along with their children, & they allow Henry out of hell once a year to show how wrong He was about all six lol like six the musical
👏👏 Great, HC! I finally got around to watching "The Tudors" and saw the scene where Anne confronted Jane. As it was with much of the series I took the history with a grain of salt although it was gratifying to watch and know most of the major players (thanks to you).Thanks for this, HC. Penny and Louie send sloppy dog kisses. 🐶🙏🏼
Oh, I'm glad you saw it. After season 1 it's actually not too bad in terms of accuracy and at least we can see where they got that pendant-ripping story from. Hello to Penny and Louie as well :-)
I don’t think Anne would attack Jane… it wouldn’t be the smart move in her situation.
Anne showed till the end to be very smart in her writing and last words to appear calm, demure and loyal to Henry. Attacking Henry’s “latest mistress” would be risking Henry’s anger
Yeah, I don't see this happening either. She has no reputation for violence.
Wouldn’t surprise me. Anne’s rage was legendary
There's no evidence of her ever being violent though. She had a sharp tongue, but it's Henry after all who went around killing people.
I just watched this Tudors scene on UA-cam! Anne was smart but incautious. I think she might have had it been early on in their relationship before Elizabeth or if she’d had a boy, but she was smart and too worried about her own position to give others ammunition to get her sent to a nunnery. (I don’t think she thought she’d die; I think she thought she’d be offered the same choice as Catherine.)
Yes, perhaps had she been more sure of her position she might have risked this, but angering Henry further wouldn't have been wise at this point.
As a result of Henry's dissolution of religious institutions, there probably wouldn't have been a convenient nunnery to send her to. I'm not sure what the analog would have been. I think you are probably right that she probably would not have goaded Henry by striking Jane. But she did have an hysterical streak, and I suppose if she were frightened enough by Henry's courting Jane, she might have struck her.
I love it that Anne and Jane were in fact surprisingly close relatives, their maternal grandmothers being half-sisters, so that they were half second cousins (Catherine Howard had the same relationship to Jane, in addition to being Anne's first cousin). So, with their descent in the female line, Anne and Jane had the same mitochondrial DNA, and passed it on to their respective children, Elizabeth I and Edward VI. The mutual great-grandmother of three of Henry's queens, Elizabeth Cheney, sounds famous for a different reason. 🙂
Don’t forget his affair with Mary Boleyn.. Henry’s type was related lmao😂😂
Yes, everyone was a little bit related back then at court. For serious inbreeding though, you need to look to the Spaniards.
Another one of your finest! Thank you so much!
Thank you too! :-)
I love how thorough you are in your research and how you explain it all out. Why do we need to blow up these stories with garbage ? The real stories are crazy and fascinating the way they really happened.
I agree. The real history is enough on its own, but people always want to add more more more to it and then you end up with a work of fiction.
Gossip is certainly not a modern invention. We haven't changed much in 500 years.
Oh I absolutely agree. I think humans don't really change all that much over time. It's just the world around us that does. We still have largely the same psychology I believe and we always love a bit of gossip!
Thank you for the video
You're welcome. Please enjoy :-)
@@HistoryCalling I agree with you like you said there is a possibility of this happening but without a valid source verifying that it occurred it's just poppycock!
She snatched her hood off and broke her chain, sounds like my old neighborhood. Wonder if Anne took off her hoops? 😂
Part of me is sad to hear this incident was likely untrue, as I’ve read it so many times over the years. But thank you for always keeping it real in your amazing videos!
You gave such a good brain & such eloquence & clarity of thought & research process. We hold you in great admiration! ❤
I believe that there is a possibility of Anne attacking Jane, especially if Jane was a bit younger than Anne and having the possibility of giving Henry his male heir, which she eventually did
Love this channel x
Thank you very much :-)
The media shows that Anne was jealous of Jane Seymour.
Oh I don't doubt that she was. I'm just not convinced about the pendant wrenching story.
I love your videos every week. Could you do one on Leopold I of Belgium and his relationship with Queen Victoria or one on his son Leopold II and his atrocious behaviour in Congo Free State. A lot has been written about this outside of Belgium but until about 20 years ago every attempt to have these books published in Belgium have always met with a veto from the royal family.
I do have a little video on Leopold I on my Patreon, as I did a main video on his first wife's wedding dress a while back. I find his story interesting, but I wonder if it would have enough pull to get people to click on it here on UA-cam? I'm not sure unfortunately. I'm not familiar at all with Leopold II.
Thank you for using the source that can be reliable given the many centuries since those times. It has always made more sense to me that after Anne Boleyn every woman lived in fear of attracting the King's attention. As two Queens did not give surviving children after the first, it is possible there was an RH factor problem, though perhaps you already have made a video speculating the miscarriage and death at or soon after birth rate for both Catherine of Aragon and Anne. Interestingly those Seymours are back in the British Royal family. ❤
I sure have. It'll be in my Six Wives playlist if you're interested :-)
There is so much hearsay about Anne's character, also her appearance. It tends to spark one's imagination after reading so many stories, historic fiction, from many sources and some obviously were not Anne's biggest fans. I read somewhere that Jane quietly observed Anne and recognized that it was in her favor to hold back from Henry's advances. If only walls could talk, what we could know about what truly happened within them.
I know. I'm sure the walls of Hampton Court Palace, Windsor Castle and the Tower would have some fascinating tales to tell.
Wow, if this was true, it must have caused quite a stir in Henry's court. Surely he would have found out about it?
The other point I was looking at was that Anne was famous for her etiquette, charm and she was very well-mannered and ladylike, especially having been in France for so many years when she was younger, I'm pretty sure she'd never engage herself in this manner.. She was also aware of her own charm and beauty and we know she used them to get Henry.. so why would she feel threatened by Jane, who at the time was known to be a good girl and as Holbein's portrait of her shows that, much like myself, she wasn't exactly gifted in the looks department.. Even if at this time the king had his beady eye on Jane, I don't think Anne would have felt threatened by this in the slightest.
The biggest problem is, just as you rightly pointed out, this account came over 100 years after they died so why make up such a story? Were people that gullible back then?
If this event did in fact happen and the story is true then I'd be quite surprised!
Thanks for this video, HC! Another brain-cog turner! 😊
Yes, while Anne is known to have had a temper, Henry had strayed before and there's no evidence she ever attacked those women either. This seems, as one other commenter put it, to be a bit of very late tabloid-style gossip.
@@HistoryCalling Exactly! 🤔
You make a solid case. Thanks
Thanks Helen :-)
Thank you for another interesting lesson in Tudor History🏰👑
Two phrases that pop up here reminded me of something funny: as I re-watch a lot of the HC backlog on the big TV, I use closed captioning to help me concentrate. On the occasions that the captioning is not scanned directly from HC's script, the AI clearly doesn't speak Irish. So two of my favorite mis-heard phrases are that Anne and Jane had each been a "lydian wedding", and that there's a reliable source curiously named "Used to Shop, We".
Oh it's dire at understanding my accent. Were those very early videos? I've been subtitling them myself for a long time now. I had to say those phrases out loud myself to get what they were meant to be, but I assume it's 'a lady in waiting' and 'Eustace Chapyus'?
@@HistoryCalling Yes and yes!
Your excellent video here illustrates why no one should ever make use of TV or movies for historical fact.
Thank you. I think the same, but unfortunately most people do believe what they see on a silver screen.
Excellent researched subject matter …🫶🏼
I think there is a kernel of truth to it. There are several reports that Henry told Anne to shut her eyes and endure like her betters before her. So she voiced not liking sharing Henry unlike Cathrine who did her best to ignore his behavior. Anne might not have pulled a necklace off Jane, but she might have shown Jane her authority in other ways that people at court embellished.
I can't see this story as being true personally for the reasons stated and I'd offer two more.
1) It's such a juicy tale (and therefore irresistible to modern dramatists) that it would have been mentioned in multiple contemporary sources especially when Anne Boleyn had fallen.
2) Anne knew the game by then. Her only chance of safety was by winning Henry back and there was no way attacking Jane and making her a victim was going to help in that aim.
Yes, I agree. As bad as her temper could be, I can't think of other instances of her being violent and it's not like this was the first time Henry had strayed.
Thanks for the clear and detailed explanation. I first saw a version of this alleged incident in "the Six Wives of Henry VIII". At the time I thought it was just added for dramatic effect.
You're welcome. Yes, it's a popular story but you rarely see anyone really take a deep dive into the evidence for it.
I feel like we should put a disclaimer on all our current fanfic so this mixup doesnt happen to future historians.
"This is fanfic, it is not a historical recounting of events." Future scholars will thank us for it.
Current ones would thank you too, as it's annoying sometimes having to correct people's misunderstandings of history because they've just bought into whatever TV show or movie they watched.
Another amazing episode and by the way I’m enamored by your accent. 😊
Chapuys would definitely have mentioned something so unfavorable about Anne, I think. Is there any evidence that he told Charles about any fights like that? Im not sure that I'd even trust it from him, though, since he's pretty biased himself.
No, I've never seen anything from Chapuys that would hint at anything like this.
Not sure Jane actually did wish to dissuade Henry, but I don't think she cunningly pursued her mistress' downfall or indeed would be dumb enough to taunt the current queen.
For sure she was going along with her brothers and Henry's wants, but I like to think she was indeed shrewd enough to follow a bit of Anne's example in avoiding being another mistress.
I do wonder a bit if she looked forward to being Queen in hopes of Henry reconciling with Rome AND to advocate for Mary, who had been so mistreated by Anne, though? If the queen was going to fail, why not be her replacement?
Yes, I can't see why she'd taunt Anne either and I don't see her as a totally pliable little pawn either. I'm sure she had her own agenda.
@@HistoryCalling Especially not when some were at the time worried the King might reconcile with Anne. As your video said and as I've read before, Henry was having the Spanish envoy (I know I'm going to butcher the man's name. Chapeu? Catherine and Mary's staunch supporter) show preference to Anne and wanted the Holy Roman Emperor to do the same mere days before her indictment and downfall. I think an ego thing more than for Anne's benefit considering what happened next.
Alison Weir gives Henry the usual benefit of the doubt/lessened responsibility, but I absolutely believe he was an active party to her murder and that he wanted rid of her. He was very much a man of his whims by that stage. :/
Just like today's so-called historical novels or historical movies, writers always want to put in more drama than actually occurs.
Yes, absolutely. It's sadly not a new phenomenon at all.
Great video. Very informative
Thank you :-)
I don’t believe Ann would have attacked Jane physically - possibly verbally, in a subtle, intellectual manner… Fuller sounds as if he was the Editor of some ‘Tabloid Newspaper’ of ‘his day’, functioning at the usual, unverified levels!🤷♀️😂😘
Yes, there is a whiff of tabloid about the whole thing, isn't there? That's a good comparison.
The scene is a good addition to historical fiction because conflict is what drives a story. It's also another moment in a story that illustrates that Anne is losing her grip on power and is doomed. But I'm guessing it didn't actually happen. Anne might have confronted Jane more subtly, but I don't think she would have physically hurt her without people knowing about it.
I'll be popping off to get a copy of your history book buy guide asap! I so appreciate it, because as history both old & new even, is being re-written by those who didn't like what they read, saw in a picture frame or visited at historical sites & monuments, I've been buying history books in order to curate a decent historical record for my family & descendants. I've gained some good material & made some horrendous mistakes too. One choice _sounded great in the fly leaf_ but was so egregious as to be a 21st c. writer such a re-write zealot that I'm recycling the book rather than returning it to the 2nd hand store. Always wishing I had my own mother's many-volume collection of Will Durant's The Story of Civilization, unaffordable today. Thanks again!
You're very welcome. It's a quick read, but I use the tips in it all the time when looking at books and it only takes a minute or two to see if there are major problems with the work. I'm glad you're not putting the terrible book back into circulation :-)
Anne might have had a fiery temper, and sure, she probably confronted Jane, but it wasn’t with fists-more like with her sharp tongue (even her dad got a taste of that!). I have to admit, a jealous woman can really go overboard. But at the end of the day, Anne was a lady-smart and well-educated.
Yes, I often say that I think Anne would be interesting to meet, but I don't know that I'd get along with her. I wouldn't appreciate her put-downs.
@@HistoryCalling She had this enigmatic personality. ♥️ I think I would because I have a fiery temper too! 😂😂😂🫣🫣🤣
There are many reasons why I think it highly unlikely that Anne would have attacked Jane. The first is that she would not want to incur Henry’s wrath for harming his mistress. Another reason is that she would never have given her enemies any ammunition to use against her. Thirdly, she knew what was expected of her as an anointed queen and , again would not have behaved badly. I do believe that history has maligned her terribly. I also believe that she really did love Henry and was a devoted, faithful wife.
No, actually Jane rugby tackled Anne to the ground as soon as she set eyes on her, then blamed it on Anne.
I also heard she spat in Catherine’s drink when she wasn’t looking and blamed it all on Anne. She did them dirty that’s what I heard.
She nasty.
Please search “stole my broccoli casserole recipe song” for reference. It’s basically history repeated
Haha, it's a good thing Fuller and Sander weren't able to talk to you before they wrote up their books :-)
@@HistoryCalling it’s a shame I think cuz I coulda spilled.the.TEA
Gurl, she nasty.
History is both amazing and fascinating.
I couldn't agree more :-)
Thank you, it shows how we can begin to believe what is just repeated and repeated or shown on tv shows. Must admit, I fell for the ‘ripping the necklace off jane’ because it seemed such an Anne thing to do. Thank you for your valuable input! Setting us on the straight and narrow 🙏🙏🙏👵🇦🇺
Yes, with her known temper it isn't totally unbelievable, though there's no evidence of her being violent at any other time. The lack of an original source is highly suspect though.
Oh, the whole history of Henry and his many wives would make an amazing TV Show - reality TV type. Keeping Up with the Tudors.
I can't think of another English / British monarch who has the same level of juicy relationship drama as Henry.
He's really...interesting in this regard haha
There's certainly no other royal house with a list of marriages like this one, but there are some interesting parent-child relationships within the Hanoverians.
One of the main reasons I love your channel is that you have an exquisitely tuned BS detector! It is a pity that modern journalism schools do not teach students to analyze their sources as thoroughly before graduation, and publishing either slanderous or nonsensical works as alleged professionals.
Amen! And all the more need on a pamphlet on how to buy decent history books!
Thank you very much. I'm sure my former lecturers, tutors and PhD supervisor would be delighted to hear that (as am I of course) :-)
I remember seeing the scene in the Tudors and thinking ‘if Jane wore that in front of Anne, she was an idiot!’ I also don’t think Anne attacked her, as she was far too proper for that
Yes, we would also have to believe that Jane was really goading Anne in order to make this story viable.
@@HistoryCallingwhich sound unlike virtuous, sensible Jane.
I’ve never heard that it was common practice for noblewomen of that period (let alone royal) to have physical fights. Was it? But I agree, Jane was by all accounts very careful, prim and proper for her time, and would probably never have displayed a love token from the king before being at least engaged. However, I certainly believe Henry was capable of pulling her into his lap thinking they were unobserved as he had no shame. But again, I’m back to whether this would trigger an actual physical fight between two noblewomen. Doubt it.
Definitely not common practice, no. Now I'm not saying ladies didn't ever hit their servants, but we're talking about the royal court and I can't think of an instance of a Queen attacking a lady in waiting at any point in English history.
I think your psychological approach rings true. I find it hard to believe that Jane intentionally drew Anne's attention to her (Jane's) burgeoning relationship with Henry. What a tightrope to walk, though, for Jane, for all involved I suppose: Jane associating with Anne more-or-less every day while Jane understood that Anne's husband was courting her. As it was, no matter how discreet Jane and henry might be, Anne would become aware soon enough and, when Anne had been pushed (by malicious if accurate gossip, since as we know not everyone liked or respected Anne), I could see Anne lashing out. The stress Anne was under had to be increasingly intolerable, after all. Regardless, another illuminating and well-thought-out presentation -- thank you!
Thanks Sarah. Yes, the pressure on Anne is unimaginable. :-(
Maintaining a dignified attitude in that environment was absolutely crucial.
So I have no difficulty in believing that Anne knew about Jane (privacy did not exist in a Renaissance court), and that - having the temper she had and being her lady - she would not have failed to do all possible pranks on her, perhaps even to put her in embarrassment and humiliate her with unpleasant tasks.
But that she bothered to put her hands on her and to make a washerwoman's riff, perhaps in front of witnesses, does not seem absolutely credible to me.
Even assuming she was panicking seeing her condition at risk.
She didn't lose her temper even in the Tower, you can imagine if She could allow herself doing it when was still Queen in full charge...
I wonder if Anne knew she was fighting NOT for Henry's love BUT for her life?? After all she was clued up & smart.
Although i think Anne was tempestuous enough ( to put it charitably) to do such a thing I think your arguments as as to why this never happened are conclusive
well done
I believe at the time Ann was probably seeing Henry was looking past her, and aware he was looking to replace her, once she miscarried her son, but even before this with the many reports of their fights, and her threats to others. made her not exactly who he originally fell in love with, and was looking for a more submissive wife. His attitude had become more harrasable, violent, and angry since the accident. Knowing how he had treated Catherine and mary, she had to fear his rejection and loss of power, so I believe the fight between the two could very well have happened even if it was a handed-down story, one to dangerous at the time to print while both henry and ann still lived.were there is smoke there is usually truth somewhere in there.
Yes, I certainly agree he was tired of Anne and seems to have wanted a totally different personality in his next wife. Everyone remarked on how different Jane was to AB.
Hi Hc! sorry i’ve been MIA from the comments for so long, hope you are well!!💜
Hi, no problem at all and welcome back. Yes, keeping well thank you. Just working away. Hope you're good too?
@@HistoryCalling glad to hear it!!! 😃truth be told i’ve been dealing with a heck of a lot these past few months. doing better now, glad to be back!! 📚 💜
Oh I'm really sorry to hear that. I'm glad to hear things are going better for you now though and I'm glad you're back :-)
thank you so much!!
Who can resist the misogynistic trope of a good catfight over a man? This has been going on since time eternal.
Yes, I agree. It's a very tired stereotype.
In courts the reason we don't accept "hearsay" is not because of its potential for being inaccurate. Rather we don't accept it because it violates a party's right to cross examine the source of the evidence. Even on this we bend the rules in certain situations. As historians we often don't have the benefit of reliable sources who actually viewed the events. We have to rely on hearsay, multiple hearsays or even tradition. Whether to rely on it depends more on the totality of the evidence than its form.
Court gossip indicates that Henry had at least one mistress while married to Anne, just as he had mistresses while married to Catherine. This suggests a number of possibilities.
Yes, nothing is impossible I'll grant you, but I'm sure this evidence would never stand up in court. Your explanation of why hearsay isn't allowed was really interesting. Thank you for sharing :-)
Thanks for using R3 as the perfect example of slander during this period. I don't believe for a second that the Jane was the cause of Anne B's downfall. I have read in various accounts that they were not exactly friendly. Cat fights were possible. Hey, what woman would tolerate her husband having mistresses. Especially when he was flouting them. A lot of what's written is likely guess work.
Yes, once you know what actually happened to his remains it just shows how many people lied about it for centuries just to get attention and basically attract the tourists of the day. All the while of course, he was lying exactly where he'd been left back in 1485.
Good evening to history calling from Bea 🇬🇧
Hi Bea! :-)
Fun fact:Did you know, bill richmond was A British boxer, born into slavery in richmodtown, New York.
In the early 1790s, Richmond married a local English woman, whose name was probably Mary Dunwixk, in a marriage recorded in Wakefield on 29 June 1791. Richmond and his wife had several children.
According to boxing writer, Pierce Egan, the well-dressed literate, and self-Confident Richmond came on the receiving end of racist attitude in Yorkshire. Egan describe several brawls, including Richmond because of the insults:
No, but that's quite a sad way to get a surname, as I assume it comes from his place of birth which was also in slavery. :-(
Correct 'the black terror' Bill Richmond was successful boxer born in British America New York,moving to England in the 1770s he was a cabinet maker. As a fighter,he had only two losses and was a welterweight.
Hi! Just wanted to let you know that we made it through the hurricane and now are just dealing with the aftermath. Thanks for the vid! Love from Lisa in New Orleans ♥️⚜️♥️⚜️♥️
Oh that's so good to hear. I'm glad you're all ok and I hope the aftermath isn't too bad for you. Stay safe and thank you for letting me know.
@@HistoryCalling just loss of power in extremely hot and humid conditions. Other than that we did really well ♥️
Oh that's good. I know power loss is annoying, but I guess it could have been so much worse. I hope it's up and running again now (well I assume it must be as you clearly have internet access :-) )
I'm glad to hear that your are safe. Sending you much love from the UK 🇬🇧 ❤️
👍Glad you made it through safely!
I always feel like you're screaming in your video titles cause of the caps (and I love it 😄)
Oh, that's just because it's meant to help grab people's attention when they're scrolling and make them more likely to click (at least that's what I read when I was researching how to be a UA-camr back at the beginning).
@@HistoryCalling Yeah absolutely understandable. It kinda reads like 'BREAKING NEWS from 5 centuries ago', and I find it really funny. Especially in this case my brain reads it as if Anne Boleyn went after Jane Seymour with a frying pan.
I would love to know!
The depiction in The Tudors was compelling. It seems something must have occurred because of the close proximity of the wine. Involved.
I am always staggered by the audacity of the mistresses knowing the Queen was their responsiblity.
I know, but we could say the same about Anne and Katherine Howard too. They both got together with Henry whilst working for his previous wife. Anne ultimately lost him in much the same way she got him.
Hello History Calling 🌹🕊
I don't think it happened but it surely helped sell books. Like you said in a reply, if we only found Anne's Diary.
Have a great week and love your videos.
🦁👑🐯
Thank you. Have a lovely week too. :-)
It probably didn’t happen but I really liked that scene in The Tudors
Oh yeah, Natalie Dormer and the actress playing JS that season (can't remember her name off the top of my head) acted the heck out of it.
@@HistoryCalling her name is Anita Briem. All of wives gave life to those roles, especially Natalie Dormer. Love her on Game of Thrones
Imagine fighting over a stinking corpulent drunk. It's good to be king.
I still have hope that Anne of Cleve's knocked Henry's lights out!
But, as always, another great video!!
Haha, no no. He would have 'knocked her block off' as the character of Queenie in Blackadder once put it.
@@HistoryCalling
That or he'd be too embarrassed that it even happened (and wouldn't have talked about it).
I can see anne doing this tho😭imagine holding out for 6 years and a women who had your previous status is coupled up with your husband…anne had been the chased so she knows the possibility of commoners being raised up…also anne loved henry i feel she believed in non sex before marriage and loyalty and thought henry changed for her in those slight 6 years
A royal slap fight would be incredible to watch😂
I don’t believe Jane would’ve worn a necklace or any obvious love token in public. The actual reports we have about Jane paint her as way more calculating than the popular culture belief of her as this mindless pawn.
Yes, I find that detail rather suspicious too. It would have been asking for trouble.
I don't think any of this happened. Anne may have been really upset and maybe jealous of Jane, but both of them knew to behave properly. Anne was Queen and from a noble family with a reputation to preserve. Jane seems to have acted with decorum whilst Henry's eyes looked elsewhere and was from a respectable family, her honour being highly important to her. Anne will have recognised that her time as Queen was coming to an end, having been through this before, but to lose your dignity in this way, in a gossip-filled Tudor court, it is inconceiveable to me. Nope, did not happen. 🙂
I doubt it too. Anne had a temper to be sure and there are stories of her using some pretty strong words, even to her uncle, but there's nothing else to suggest she ever got violent with someone.
I think Jane was very careful in Dealing with Henry at this point. I'm sure her family groomed her on what to do and say when she got his attention and how to keep it. Anne was already stuck between a rock and a hard ballet having yet to produce a living male heir. Had she not miscarried, and gave birth to a living son, Henry would have immediately turn his attentions to his long awaited male heir and Anne's place succured. I'm not sure if Anne suspected Jane at this point or not. She may have suspected many young women in court and stressing out about it. She may have known by that point she was about to be replaced. I'm sure it caused a whole slue of mental health problems for her too. After all she had replaced a queen who failed to produce a male heir and Henry had a wandering eye. There could have been half a dozen girls at court that she was surrounded by that she could have suspected could be her replacement. So I would think Jane would have been cautious about any gifts she might receive from from Henry out of fear that Anne would catch wind of it. After all everyone loves to gossip. Which is probably where the story came from. A rumor that was started after Anne's downfall.
Yes, it does seem so unlikely that Jane would have goaded Anne like this and I'm sure Anne was in an increasingly bad place mentally too.
@@HistoryCalling I can only imagine the kind of panic attacks and sleep deprivation she might have had during this period.
Love triangle, love heptagon, who's even counting? 😍
Henry? Make that dodecagon?
Hi from Sweden, Love your channel. Any plans on telling the story about Katherine Swynford?
Maybe, maybe ... :-)
I'd love to see video on Katherine Swynford
I have read that Hebry called Jane 'little nun", if this is true, it makes me think she wouldn't accept any gifts from. Henry. I have a request, would you consider doing a video on Margaret Moore Roper? She has always fascinated me.
Oh, interesting. I've never heard the little nun story before. I'm not sure Margaret is famous enough to do a video on (I have to be brutal and think about whether people would click on it or not), however Thomas More is on my list and when I get to him, I'm sure she'll make an appearance in that video.
Thank you, that would be wonderful.
Of course it is possible that Anne could have attacked Jane. Their story is like a reality show and viewers just love watching drama but without any real evidence we cant just assume Anne attacked her. I'm sure Katherine of Aragon would love to have hit Anne but there are no reports of that happening so I just don't think we can just assume Anne attacked Jane.
My thoughts exactly :-)
It would be interesting to compare this aspect of the transition from Catherine of Aragon to Anne, with that of Anne to Jane. If the stories about Anne openly wearing a necklace gifted by Henry and pretty shamelessly partying with him (more 'The Tudors' fictions?); then a tantrum over the discarded Catherine still making Henry's shirts, and demanding the Queen's jewels and royal christening robes are true, she surely got her comeuppance in full when Jane sat on Henry's knee (or not!) And I find it strange that Jane was in the background all the time. You never really think of the six wives overlapping! I'm guessing her ambitious family pushed her forward.
*Not overlapping except of course the first two in such an infamous and devastating way!
@@jenniferjones-ei8rg And as you point out, Anne B. and Jane--although Henry wasn't married to Jane while Anne was alive.
History is full of people "in the know " telling secrets... But they don't know they are" not in the know." Thanks. I have heard many times that Anne was Polydactyl .
Yes, everyone wants to believe (or least pretend) that they are special and know more than others, but so often it's just a lie.
Thanks HC 🖤 💛
However exciting and fun it may be to think of Anne and Jane having a Dynasty style Tudor catfight, it just seems too good to be true 😕
If either or both ladies ever got physical it would be have been well documented and gossiped about. Anything to make Anne look bad and unlady like.
Also, although we don't know Jane's true personality, I can't imagine Jane deliberately goading Anne or even fighting back 😂
Yeah, I agree. Chapuys would have written a heck of a letter back to Spain about this if it had ever really happened.
@@HistoryCalling Oh yes, Chapuys was a proper gossip columnist especially when it came to Anne 😂
I've seen this story dramatized a number of times and it never fails to take me right out of the wider story because I always felt that this tale was suspect though I had no knowledge of why I'm glad you were able to pick apart the evidence and denounce it for what it most likely is - a later fabrication designed to attribute an intimate knowledge of facts on the writer which he clearly can not have But it makes no sense at all to me Why would Jane wear such a pendant in front of her Queen? Why sit on Henry's lap and later claim virtue? Why would Jane even put herself in the position of a flirtation with Henry since he had waited 7 years to marry Anne? Did she really believe Henry would cast off yet another wife for HER? I think the story of Henry's unread note has much more merit To me it was her way of telling Henry she wasn't interested in being his mistress - which is probably all he was after I think she was probably appalled by Henry's interest but acquiesced reluctantly once Anne was out of the picture She probably thought she was at court to get a good marriage offer and couldn't do better than the King Her next thought was probably "and I certainly won't object if he wants to divorce me!"
Yes, I can't imagine her wearing such a necklace in front of Anne either. It would be begging for trouble. The only point we'll differ on really is that I think Jane was all in even before Anne's death, but I'm not sure exactly when she decided 'yup, I'm gonna go for the throne'.
@@HistoryCalling Perhaps Jane was more of a gambler than I! Thanks for your answer and another great thought experiment!
Even the idea of this is enough to make me giggle
Thanks for this look at the evidence that Anne might have assaulted Jane. I would not have put such a thing outside the realm of possibility, if Anne was becoming frightened about her position, but someone would have seen it. It would have caused a scandal that the ambassadors at court would not have failed to report home.
Jane Dormer (although not reliable as a source of evidence) was not really exiled on account of her Catholic faith. Early in Elizabeth's reign she married the Duke of Feria, a close associate of Philip II's, who was the Spanish ambassador. Feria was recalled to Spain, and his wife went with him. She did become a supporter of Catholic exiles from England.
Her background was unusual (I would guess): her father's family was Catholic and her mother's Protestant; she was a childhood playmate of Edward VI.
You're right. Exiled is perhaps a bit strong for Jane's case, though I don't think she would have been comfortable back in England. She did have a very interesting life though. It's a shame she's not more famous.
you should make a video about eustace chapuys
I thought of that at one point, but I'm not sure there's enough info. available (and available in English too) and there's a distinct lack of portraits, which always makes my job very difficult.
Is Wriothesley's "A chronicle of England during the reigns of the Tudors, , From A.D. 1485 to 1559" a good source? He was certainly a contemporary.
I'd need to go double check it again to be sure, but yes I think it's decent enough. It's the so-called Spanish Chronicle that you've really gotta watch out for.
@@HistoryCalling Thanks!
She did the same thing as Wyatt did to her(taking her necklace she got from the King)... unless that was a myth/makeup story as well!
Remind me of the Wyatt story? Either I haven't heard it or I'm having a brain blank.
@@HistoryCallingI only know about it because I watched Blood, Sex & Royalty. It had the famous historian Suzannah lipscomb & Tracy Borman in it! I never seen this scenario in another movie/documentary. Wyatt was trying to get her attention but she kept ignoring him so, he took the necklace off of her neck & then in another scene, him & King Henry were playing a game against each other, the King said something like the next prize/game is mine & showed a ring of Anne's (He supposedly won from her in a dice game.) But then Wyatt shows the necklace & said I think this game/prize is his. The King then wonders if she's gave him the necklace & her virginity to Wyatt. She goes to the King to tell him, she didn't give him the necklace.
Also, in the movie they show Anne, Katherine & Henry having a card game together!?!?!! & Katherine said, "I'm tired of games" & leaves... because Anne & the King were playing with their feet under the table in front of her. It's my first time hearing about this! 😳😱🤔 They said it actually happened!
They might have had a few other things that I don't recall ever seeing in other movies/documentaries, but seeing that they had historian's on it I would hoped they didn't embellish the stories again!
The actors&actresses in the documentary were really good btw!!!
In the documentary they do say that jewelry in Tudors time was symbolic to them. Hence, all the jewelry given.
Hmm, I'd need to see a primary source for those stories just to double check I think.