New vs Old Sennheiser MD421 Teardown - Big Differences! (Public)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 14 лип 2024
- Lets take a look at the differences between the MD421 vs MD421 II. There are vast differences and in many ways, not the same mic. Different capsule, different housing, different tuning methods, different everything except the look.
00:00 Intro
00:05 2 main versions
00:29 Fixing mics to pay the bills
02:00 Broken MD421's
02:50 Compare the external differences
04:38 Ports vs no ports
04:52 How to open the mics
07:28 Removing the capsule
08:58 Comparing the housings
09:31 Internal ports and tuning
10:04 Removing the grills
13:08 Humbucking coils
14:31 Rear capsule vents
15:33 The mystery gear
16:05 Diaphragm and phase cover
18:12 Wiring
18:57 Bass roll off filter
20:15 Outro
If you like this and other videos I do, please join this channel to get access to more videos, early access to videos as well as to be able to join my weekly zoom chats:
/ @daverat
Also check out:
www.ratsoundsales.com/
ratsound.com/daveswordpress/
www.ratsound.com/
www.soundtools.com
Dude! You are a treasure. I saw your vid where folks were trying to dig into you. I just want you to know that however many "haters" are out there, there is an equal/larger number of folks that love you. Or at least, we love you more than the "hate".
Ha, very cool and based on the 99% like to dislike counts my vids get, the haters seem to be quite rare when they actually watch the vids or know me. It is the people that are commenting without actually researching what they are commenting about that seem to be the most vocally negative.
This was super helpful, especially as I'm starting out with repairs in the industry. Thanks Dave!
Thank you for posting this and for your great work and explanations.
Thanks to your video, I was able to swap out a broken gtille with another from a MD421 I was keeping for spares. And also when the ball bearing/ spring fell out during disassembly, thanks to your video i knew what small part i was looking for on the floor !
Thanks again from Stuart, in Scotland.
Awesome and thank you Stuart!!
Surely THE most versatile mic ever(?). From a podium mic, to a hi-hat, horn, bass cab, kick, snare...you could mic an entire band with the 421. Amazing back in the day and still very useful...except nowadays for it's bulk. That clip though... Thanks Dave.
🤙😃👍
Yeah, they were used for everything here in Germany.
Great mic!
I prefer the creme/beige ones from the early days. Decent look.
Oh man, just the ticket! Thank you so much. I really love seeing the guts to better understand audio equipment. Please feel free to make more :)
Cool cool, more coming!
"lest taste it , yes its plastic ":) this guy eats microphones for breakfast:) great video Dave, thanks a lot
Ha! Thank you
Awesome video! Thanks for showing us the guts of both of these mics!
👍🔧👍
I have 2 421 from the early 80’s built like a tank. Sent them back the the company to have them cleaned and matched. Don’t use much any more but glad I kept them.
🤙🔧🤙
What a cool story, telling you went to the studios and got paid with mics and micparts! :-)
Thanks voor die insights and the great video, Dave!!
Thank you Edwin
Thank you so much David deep surgery very detailed I enjoyed hearing your comparison with the new and the old especially the newer magnets that should make for a better sound I have an old 421 I'm cleaning I paid 400 bucks to get a 441 redone I like it we use 835s all the time for music and we use a 421 on a banjo you've inspired me to go deep in my mic and clean it well I have a friend who gave me a whole bunch of broken mics some akgs some old shores so I've been working on them restoring them thanks for the encouragement
Fun!!
This is so fascinating! Love it!
Cool cool Mark!
I do love the teardowns!
Awesome, will do more
Great video Dave
Thank you Pasquale!
I love that unlike most other companies sennheiser has made the newer ones easier to repair
🤙👍🤙
Yeah I would be fascinated to know what those tiny vent tubes were for on the old mic, and how they came up with the sizes that they did. Crazy. I have a newer (though probably 25 years old now) one that despite a cracked housing, still works a treat. Gaff tape for the win. Also it's absolutely worth it to pay the 20 or so dollars to one of the guys on the internet who 3D print those custom mounts for 421s so you can just pop them into a regular SM58 clip. Game changer.
Hmmm, I will see if I can find a simple way to test the impact of the tubes and such
Mastership of engineering
👍👍👍
You’re awesome ❤
Great video.
Thank you Scott!
Thanks DAVE!
👍👍👍
I have a few old mics and when I ask the manfrs. To clean them ,they say unless they’re malfunctioning, don’t touch them. Additionally, I asked about new versions and they say, the ones you have are made with way better components. Keep them
Agreed. The older versions use much more complexly crafted parts
"Muck around" , love this phrase.
Yessss!
Muck about... even better.
Hey hey!
Great video, as always.
It might sound stupid but it feels weird having lots of cuts in the video, probably to remove some pauses in between words, but I missed those 2-3 seconds you took every now and then :D dunno why, it made it more "real", and kinda helped me assimilate the information slowly in those few seconds rather than having a lot to take in without breathing room :O
But I imagine it's UA-cam life of making fast paced video :(
Still, what an awesome video! Thanks!
Thank you Luca, yeah, am experimenting with faster paced and appreciate the input. There actually is a slower edit version on the member side. This is great info and will see how the overall response is. I too like the slower, hang out vibe, paced video.
I was gonna comment on the same thing. Thank you for bringing it up. 🙂
@@DaveRat ‘slower’ over here! ;-)
👍👍👍
Thx -very interesting! I love Mics with a character need less EQ if you take the right one for a job.
Yes! A good mic choice can really make a huge difference
Get your LEARN on!
👍🤙👍
I can’t state for a fact what that gear does, but based on where it’s placed I’d guess it would be to mechanically fine tune LF directivity at the factory. Fascinating and probably a big cost saving to eliminate later.
I have some capsules that are no good and will tear one down to see. I am sure I have looked before but just can't remember.
Great video Dave, I am really enjoying these microphone tear down videos and your MacGyver testing too. As a future video topic, would you consider showing us the differences between a single coil and a humbucking coil in a guitar pickup? Also, any tips on how to reduce the hum when faced with a noisy guitar rig? I've tried the usual things like making sure the guitar rig is plugged into the same power source as the PA.
Hmmm, I don't think I will do e into guitars but I can show what bypassing the humbucking coil on a mic does
The 421 has a resonance chamber... and a gear that turns something? WTF? I own a pair of older 421s and they're great, but I had no idea the insides of them were as weird as the outside!
Right! Cool stuff! I have a 421 capsule I can mess with and figure out what the gear does
This is brilliant. I'm going to have to take apart my two 421s and see if they're built the same. I've got a new Shure SM57 and an old Unidyne III SM57 (the black one, not the old silver Unidyne) that look identical but definitely sound different. Might be age?
I've always wanted to see the changes is the EV RE series with Variable D mics to see how they work, but don't want to take them apart in case they get damaged. I've got the assembly diagrams from EV but don't want to damage the coils.
Thanks for posting this. Great stuff.
Ha! The next video is a 3 part series on RE20 rebuild!
@@DaveRat Great stuff. I've always wondered how the air channels work in those mic's. Nice work. 👍
The reasons the old SM57 sounds different than the new is that the old version was made in the U.S. and the audio transformer in the bottom threaded half is different, too. Shure moved their manufacturing to Mexico in 1985 and some things did change a hair bit. Of course, the companies that supply the parts for the mic either run out of stock or discontinue a particular model and that can influence the sound change. But both SM57s are built within the tolerable specs for Shure. Some claim the post-1985 models have more mid-range frequency boost than the older versions, which is true. *Forgot to add, the switch from a conventional magnets to neodymium magnets. I don't know when that happened.
@@minty_Joe I know out of mine - the new 57 will help out a snare with a dull head or dead-sounding guitar, but the older 'Unidyne' 57 is much smoother in the upper mids. I thought it was just age but - I did read that all the tooling was picked up and moved to Mexico, and over the years the dies etc. have worn so much, the tolerances can now vary quite a lot. I'm not sure how true that is. That and a change in parts like transformers could lead to a noticeable change the response? If I had a few of each, it'd be interesting to see how much the new Vs new and new Vs old differ.
That said - years of being being stuck up against a 4x12 or a snare would take its toll on just about anything, regardless of how it sounded when new. I'd be interested to find out if they're fundamentally different or if it is just age and general abuse.
Compare that to the pretty simple inside of a SM58... German Engineering ruled that day...
But: i like both mics.
👍👍👍
You keep referring to these mics as "old" and "new", but they are both new. The original MD421s were grey and slightly larger. None had XLRs, there was the standard MD421-N with a "Klein Tuchel" (DIN 41524) and a German broadcast version with a "Gross Tuchel" (DIN 41624) connector and no M/S switch which was called MD421-2 (not to be confused with the black MD421-II). There was also a version, usually bundled with domestic tape recorders, that contained a transformer and had high and low impedance outputs called -HN (German) or -HL (English). The DIN connector had a different pinout and the M/S control was continuous with a variable inductor, otherwise they look the same as a -N.
Very cool and I have one of the old white ones with a din connector.
Very cool info.
I've worked on quite a few over the years and there seems to be two different types of porting.
The older version that has the four corner ports on the tail and the newer version that does not.
The older version is larger than the newer version as well.
Are you saying that there is an older older version of porting that has something different than the four in the corners?
If so I haven't run into that and very cool interesting.
@@DaveRat No, all the ones that I have have the same four corner holes. I don't have any -HL versions, but I think it is the same mould. There were different grilles and logos through the 60s. I just got a -N out of its case to check this and the foam was starting to mutate into blue slime, so now I've got a cleaning job! Fortunately I found this in time and it didn't get in the grille.
Yes the four whole version seems to be the cool old one and I've only seen one shell type for those and different connector ends can be mounted like DIN, or XLR. The newer models without the four holes have a smaller shell and no venting and a cheaper capsule and none of the cool stuff inside.
My old one with the cursive Sennheiser script on the front and white housing I think has a tucol connector on it. I'd have to dig it out but if memory serves the connector can be removed and replaced with an XLR and the guts are pretty much the same as the rest of the four hole versions.. I know there was the blackfire as well which again is the same shell but doesn't have the variable high-pass filter and instead just has a plastic XLR mounted there.
nice,.........thx
🤙🤙🤙
I have two versions of the 521, new and old. Kind of prefer the 5 series for live, they're a little smaller and less parts to break.
👍👍👍
0:40 wait what that was glossed over, wow.
👍👍👍 imark7777777
The gear is for switching the mic into and out of 4WD mode. For outdoor performances/recordings in rugged terrain it is advisable to put the mic into four-wheel drive mode. When used indoors it is unnecessary and two-wheel drive mode is more efficient.
Cool cool Lee!
Dave, Thanks for the video. Do you have any experience with a DM 419? I recently noticed that the condenser was rattling around in the housing. I have carried it to gigs in its case, but don’t recall dropping it. The 419 is different in that it does not have a hidden screw nor does it have a shaft/screw through the center for removing the insides.
No I've never opened an md419.
One place to try is to remove the retaining ring that holds the connector and switch on and you can slide out the XLR and see if there's a screw or something under there but be careful of the thin wires
@@DaveRat That was the first thing I did. I found no screw. In the exploded diagram they mention a special tool (MD 431-23). I haven't a clue what that might be.
I’m curious what sonic differences, if any, you hear, Dave. I only own old ones and based on them think this is Sennheiser’s worst sounding mic. The presence boost is so over the top and oddly chosen I can’t use them anywhere. It is almost as if they were designed for that clicky kick and tom sound but, the 421 is too old for that and its predecessors have a long history of broadcast voice use so their odd curve doesn’t make sense to me. Is the ‘II’ different?
I hope to build a mic sound test setup, just need to figure out a simple way that works and is useful.
Yes, the presence peak of the 421, not unlike the sm57 or sm58 is popular for vocal mics. I personally am not a fan.
Using mics with that peak on drums adds the click, which I don't dislike except the click added by the 421 is too low in frequency for me, to harsh and drastic.
That gear thing is for internal dampening.
Very cool and thank you!
Great video as always. When I compared the sound between the older version and the blackfire variant, I found out that I preferred the sound of the non blackfire mic. In this case the MD431 blackfire had way less detail than the regular MD431. Is it possible that 431 and 431 blackfire are different but the 421 and 421 blackfire are the same?
PS.: I also prefer the slower pace cutting style (If one likes it quicker he can simply up the playback speed of youtube.)
Thank you Bokaj! Ok, 2nd call for slower pace and though I have several in the pipeline edited to fast pace, I will return to slower pace. It's more natural, less work and what I prefer as well.
As far as the backfire 521 vs md421, I don't know all the manufacturing differences, though from what I can tell, in an attempt to drop cost without diminishing sound quality, the BF521 is exactly the same capsule with the choke, resistors, capacitors and switch removed.
The high pass can be done on the console rather than the mic and reduce the cost of the mic, yet sound the same.
I am guessing the differences you hear are more due to the wear and tear differentials between the two mics, rather than the manufacture.
I like fast-paced videos. Much as I enjoy hearing your voice, a faster pace makes it easier to follow.
Hmmm, alright, I will do a poll and see what the results are.
Fast chops or real time?
@@DaveRat
Fast
@@DaveRat One vote for real time. Laid back all the way.
I never really liked the 421, dunno why. Maybe too much of a RE20 fanboy, ha. But it's more of a sound preference.
Things are different with the 441. One of my favorite mics ever and I'm sad it doesn't see as much use as it used to. It's good for almost everything.
Also love the Beyerdynamic M88, which is relatively similar to the M441.
I agree with your preferences! The 3 k bite from the 421 is too artificial. The re20 is clean and pure, the 441 is pristine and smooth, don't like the beta53 for that reasons I don't like the 421
@@DaveRat It's so interesting to see how some of the classic mics hold up over time. We have so many great mic options now. But some of the classics don't go away, while others aren't used enough(441!).
I'm sort of split on SM57 e.g. -- I still think it performs great on some snare, but like the 58 wildly overrated because "classic".
I still meet people who swear by 421 on BD(I would not use RE20 here, either) or bass cabs(RE20 please!), but mostly you find it used on brass, a lot. Why!? That seems like the worst option.
Well, to overly simplify, two trains of thought
1) big mics on big things and small mics on small things to augment and enhance the bigness or small ness
2) big mics on small things and small mics on big things to balance out the sound, as 8n add clarity to muddy things and add mud to bright things.
This or a version of this probably explains kostmic choices when just grabbing the cheapest familiar mic is not done
@@DaveRat Yeah, price is a good point, 441 are not cheap.
I'm quite tainted in the way that I did a lot of brass set ups for studios, M160 is just gorgeous(also for guitar, even drums). Another classic, but not so much for stage, I suppose.
Do you even use ribbon mics?
I do, used to have quite a few Beyer ribbons, I love the royer 122s
hi, what is known about the md421 in white from the sixties..? are they rare and sought after?... .just seeing a pair on a second hand platform, price ia more then 215 dollars at present.
I don't know values but I do have one of those that's have rebuilt, they have Sennheiser written in cursive on the grill and the really old ones do not have XLR but have a 3 pin tuchel connector.
@@DaveRat Could you do a video regarding the differences between Tuchel and XLR? Very little exists about the history. Heck, maybe even going into mic connector history, if possible? When mics went from unbalanced to balanced, multiple impedance to a single industry standard, maybe? Again, very few videos (if not, none) out there that go into this.
At 9:29, "the new one being shorter." Is that right?
Yes, it is shorter and not ported
I wonder if the humbucking affects the tone like it does on a guitar? Would be interesting to coils tap one, just to see.
Cool cool, great question and I can do a test that shows what it does and we can see if it is audible.
I'd hazard a guess that it wouldn't. The tone difference from a humbucker comes from the two coils picking up different points on the string, and causing phase cancellation or the like. Since the mic's diaphragm moves as one unit there is no difference between the movement being picked up by the coils, so no phase difference. Or at least in theory, could well be different.
Hmmm, since the mic hum bucking coil is in series, I am there should be slight level loss. The added inductance of the humbucking coil could slightly impact the HF but it looks like the humbucking coils are thicker wire than the voice oil wire probably to minimize level loss and reduce inductance.
It's super easy to just short out the humbucking coil, so it should not be hard to test.
It also I believe would raise the impedance of the mic as well
I am not one to make assumptions and it could easily be non audible or readily audible or audible on some mics and not others or even a part of the sound that smooths the response or adds resonance.
@@DaveRat SHORT IT!
👍🤙👍
What’s the purpose of the small gear in the capsule assembly? I’m really curious.
On it, will figure it out
Curious as well.
Wonder if it is capsule tension related, so as the capsule ages, it could be retensioned?
I believe it is related to compressing the cotton wadding behind that tunes the amount of LF vs HF that teachers the back of the diaphragm
Is the 521 basically same as the vintage 421U ?
As far as I know they're exactly the same with the exception of the variable high pass filter which has been eliminated on the 521
Wow. But man. What a horrible thing you went through
👍😯👍
Id have to buy all the chipped case md421s i can get, that i have to fix the ends on, for $100 each. Just saying.
🤙👍🤙
Maybe I’m just too ignorant but it doesn’t make sense to me that a company that can design such an incredible sounding mic matches it with the worst designed mic clip ever created.
Ha! And yes, the minds that design the acoustics are not always best at mechanics
@@DaveRat well honestly I couldn’t do either so I guess I’m just an internet critic🤦♂️🤣
All good and observation and 8nputis helpful in pushing design
The ultimate audio porn channel
Hell yes thank you Phil!
@@DaveRat Your passion, expertise, enthusiasm, and knowledge are inspirational buddy.... Great channel, kindest regards as ever from sunny Scotland
So cool and I so can not wait to return to Scotland! Oh, and to surf the north sea again as well!