Thanks for your video, and also recording at a higher bit rate! Made it much clearer to see the difference this add-on makes, and your input was great! I would like to share a developers perspective if I may. The way imposter trees work in 2020 is that a 3D source model had multiple photos taken from it (all the sides, and angles), then cleaned up in image editing, and stitched together onto a sheet of tree sprites. In sim, they are rendered as an object facing the camera view. As you translate and orbit an impostor tree in 2020, they change the sprite to give the illusion of a fuller 3D model, based on the source model but without the computing power required to run multiple shaders (trunk, leaves, and 3D geometry). The main drawback of this method is that up close, we see a shifting / ghosting as the sprites blend states in movement. Its not too bad and much fuller, and believable at altitude compared to the older ways trees were done in sims. What I'm noticing here though... is that some of the new "Orbx HD" trees look almost 'cross-planar', which *was* the old way trees were done in games for performance reasons (think FSX, XP11 era). Essentially, its still a 3D model, but rather than a complex poly count for a trunk, branches, and leaves, its just two rectangular planes that intersect, with 4 triangles total and one shader material to draw. Thing is, the core rendering system in 2020 is still 'imposter' sprite sheet based tree... So this tells me that is possible Orbx's source 3D models may have been their cross-planar HD trees from FSX (or maybe they made new ones) when remaking their "HD" sprite sheet to replace 2020's imposter sheet, rather than using full 3D models of foliage.. I haven't yet purchased this add-on, but visually that's what it looks like.. Less 'full' as a 3D shape, and more 'flat' at various camera angles. IMO, a cheap way out rather than rendering and capturing images from highly detailed 3D source geometry. I could be very wrong about this, but personally feel they look this way. Examples (10:53, 12:40, and 15:17). The higher the camera angle, the more noticeable it seems, almost to where flat 2D sides of a tree or bush is facing the viewer. From what can be seen in the trailers, 2024, is using fully 3D trees up close, and then what looks to be imposter trees at a distance for performance reasons, with the up-close fully 3D models as the source used to create the imposters. Apart from a tiny bit of lighting differences captured in the render, it looks beautifully seamless and difficult to notice the swap from full 3D to imposter. My opinions aside, it is still very commendable to see Orbx release this effort to improve the existing tree sprite sheet, since those original Asobo imposters were all taken at a very low resolution to begin with, thus looked blurry up close. As a result, the product is as advertised. It very much is higher definition trees for MSFS 2020. Just visually not the approach I would have taken to ensure they complied with the way the original trees were captured. Cheers - GotFriends dev Mykrode
Man, that is what I called a detailed remark! Thank you for taking the time and sharing all that information. And thanks for the products that GotFriends provides... The discus-2C is one of my favorite VR experiences. I don't run VR very often for FS, but its the only way to go in that aircraft.
Appreciated the honest review. I had bought this too, but was not sure it made much difference here in PA where I fly mostly. Did you happen to compare it to Rex Accuseason to see if that one was any better? Thanks
No, sorry... I haven't seen anything from REX for MSFS that really caught my attention, so I don't have any of that stuff... Loved it in FSX, but in MSFS with the way Asobo has the weather API locked down I haven't been able to figure out what advantage it would bring.
@@Topcat1952 I have had Rex Accuseason forever. I can point out some of what Rex does maybe that can help you. For trees, rex can change the size (although nominally) the amount of trees near towns, the shape of how the tops appear (round or irregular), and can modify the colors of trees. Fall color tours look really great with REX accu. They also have some free weather presets, and a few random area fixes like for instance St. barts Trees (although idk how updated that particular one is. Rex Accuseason also recently added ground textures, which are also really great. I still remember the first time I tried the fall ground textures and to see all the grass dead in the sim (Michigander here) blew my mind because it was always just greeeeen before.
Oh, great. LOL I did a little Sunday morning VR flight around my hometown in the MD500 and, thanks to you, realized that MSFS makes my city look like it sits in the middle of an old-growth forest. The trees are too tall, too thick, too numerous, too uniform ... in other words, so not real. If it weren't for your video, I would never have noticed. I write this as a way of a humorous apology. Think I'll wait, though, until I see how it looks in MSFS 2024 before I put any more money into 2020. By then I hope I will gotten off the fence and bought that Pimax Crystal Light. Have a good day.
I agree on waiting till 2024 if you're unsure. Asobo is promising a lot of improvements on this kind of terrain details, and its only a few months away right now... Of course it will come with the usual pile of bugs because of being a new release. I'll be a day one buyer on that. I'm not on their radar for an advance copy tho, so any info from me about it will be a few days after.
The MSFS settings only control draw distance, not density (unless I've forgotten something). As far as I know the only way to adjust the density is to modify the biome JSON files. Which I have done in the past to get things as I want. And I looked at the files on this add-on and the same could be done. But I'm kind of holding on to see if the dev makes a patch with adjustments before I start digging into it myself.
Both Bijan and Accuseason look to be much better products. I have both and have leaned towards Bijan. After seeing this review I would not recommend the ORBX product and would get Accuseason if you want something from ORBX.
Rex is a weather mod, so I can't imagine any reason why not. *** reading further someone mentioned REX Accuseason, and I think that might be what you're asking about... I don't have that one, and I would not know.. Sorry.
@@kurtvwSims no problem, thanks for showcasing. Yes, I didn't think of the one you were thinking of. Lol goes both ways, haha no worries. I am talking about REX Accuseason. I will buy and try. Can't hurt
I was on the Orbx forum this morning and it looks like rex accuseason and HD Trees will not play nice together... People get square trees.. Seems like you'll have to pick one or the other.
😂 This comment actually did make me laugh... On MOST of their scenery addon's, I absolutely agree, it should be their tag-line ORBX: We give you stutters. Anyhow, not so with the trees, for me at least there was no performance hit at all.
It's just an installer. It doesn't need to be running when you're using MSFS, but you do use any time you want to load different season textures. It kind of makes sense. But I get where you're coming from.
Isn't this kind of splitting hairs? It's really great that scenery fidelity in MSFS has given us the ability to complain about the type and density of trees , but I think this thing is going a little bit too far. Why does it really matter? Sure, from a visual standpoint I don't want trees in the middle of a highway, but I don't care how tall or how dense they are when, while just flying around, they come and go in my visual field.
To be clear, I don't normally sit around and examine trees that closely, although I do fly VFR most of the time in slow planes, and I do want the trees to be pointy in regions where they should be pointy and round in places where they should be round. But the reason for the detail in the video, is that I want to help people who are thinking about this product see exactly what it does well, and where it isn't perfect. It makes a lot of promises on the website. Ppl should know what their money is getting them. Thanks for watching!
I can't imagine spending $70 on a long haul airliner where you click autopilot and go to sleep... We all use it differently. I mostly fly low and slow, and it matters for me.
@@kurtvwSims apples to oranges comparison because you can fly long haulers on med and short hops if you so please. You’re not restricted to long hauls because it’s a big plane. No different than putting a ga plane in ap at 5-10000’ and not seeing the trees you paid for.
@@kurtvwSims agreed, I do Bush, GA, and we run organized live broadcast STOL Competitions. Trees are very much a big part of life for GA/Bush boys like us!
Thanks for your video, and also recording at a higher bit rate! Made it much clearer to see the difference this add-on makes, and your input was great! I would like to share a developers perspective if I may.
The way imposter trees work in 2020 is that a 3D source model had multiple photos taken from it (all the sides, and angles), then cleaned up in image editing, and stitched together onto a sheet of tree sprites. In sim, they are rendered as an object facing the camera view. As you translate and orbit an impostor tree in 2020, they change the sprite to give the illusion of a fuller 3D model, based on the source model but without the computing power required to run multiple shaders (trunk, leaves, and 3D geometry). The main drawback of this method is that up close, we see a shifting / ghosting as the sprites blend states in movement. Its not too bad and much fuller, and believable at altitude compared to the older ways trees were done in sims.
What I'm noticing here though... is that some of the new "Orbx HD" trees look almost 'cross-planar', which *was* the old way trees were done in games for performance reasons (think FSX, XP11 era). Essentially, its still a 3D model, but rather than a complex poly count for a trunk, branches, and leaves, its just two rectangular planes that intersect, with 4 triangles total and one shader material to draw. Thing is, the core rendering system in 2020 is still 'imposter' sprite sheet based tree... So this tells me that is possible Orbx's source 3D models may have been their cross-planar HD trees from FSX (or maybe they made new ones) when remaking their "HD" sprite sheet to replace 2020's imposter sheet, rather than using full 3D models of foliage.. I haven't yet purchased this add-on, but visually that's what it looks like.. Less 'full' as a 3D shape, and more 'flat' at various camera angles. IMO, a cheap way out rather than rendering and capturing images from highly detailed 3D source geometry. I could be very wrong about this, but personally feel they look this way.
Examples (10:53, 12:40, and 15:17). The higher the camera angle, the more noticeable it seems, almost to where flat 2D sides of a tree or bush is facing the viewer.
From what can be seen in the trailers, 2024, is using fully 3D trees up close, and then what looks to be imposter trees at a distance for performance reasons, with the up-close fully 3D models as the source used to create the imposters. Apart from a tiny bit of lighting differences captured in the render, it looks beautifully seamless and difficult to notice the swap from full 3D to imposter.
My opinions aside, it is still very commendable to see Orbx release this effort to improve the existing tree sprite sheet, since those original Asobo imposters were all taken at a very low resolution to begin with, thus looked blurry up close. As a result, the product is as advertised. It very much is higher definition trees for MSFS 2020. Just visually not the approach I would have taken to ensure they complied with the way the original trees were captured.
Cheers
- GotFriends dev Mykrode
Man, that is what I called a detailed remark! Thank you for taking the time and sharing all that information.
And thanks for the products that GotFriends provides... The discus-2C is one of my favorite VR experiences. I don't run VR very often for FS, but its the only way to go in that aircraft.
Game changer!
Appreciated the honest review. I had bought this too, but was not sure it made much difference here in PA where I fly mostly. Did you happen to compare it to Rex Accuseason to see if that one was any better?
Thanks
No, sorry... I haven't seen anything from REX for MSFS that really caught my attention, so I don't have any of that stuff... Loved it in FSX, but in MSFS with the way Asobo has the weather API locked down I haven't been able to figure out what advantage it would bring.
@@Topcat1952 I have had Rex Accuseason forever. I can point out some of what Rex does maybe that can help you.
For trees, rex can change the size (although nominally) the amount of trees near towns, the shape of how the tops appear (round or irregular), and can modify the colors of trees.
Fall color tours look really great with REX accu. They also have some free weather presets, and a few random area fixes like for instance St. barts Trees (although idk how updated that particular one is.
Rex Accuseason also recently added ground textures, which are also really great.
I still remember the first time I tried the fall ground textures and to see all the grass dead in the sim (Michigander here) blew my mind because it was always just greeeeen before.
@@Burstix Helpful. Really appreciate your comments.
Oh, great. LOL I did a little Sunday morning VR flight around my hometown in the MD500 and, thanks to you, realized that MSFS makes my city look like it sits in the middle of an old-growth forest. The trees are too tall, too thick, too numerous, too uniform ... in other words, so not real. If it weren't for your video, I would never have noticed. I write this as a way of a humorous apology. Think I'll wait, though, until I see how it looks in MSFS 2024 before I put any more money into 2020. By then I hope I will gotten off the fence and bought that Pimax Crystal Light. Have a good day.
I agree on waiting till 2024 if you're unsure. Asobo is promising a lot of improvements on this kind of terrain details, and its only a few months away right now... Of course it will come with the usual pile of bugs because of being a new release. I'll be a day one buyer on that. I'm not on their radar for an advance copy tho, so any info from me about it will be a few days after.
In terms of density, can you not reduce that in settings ? Very well done video, thanks !
The MSFS settings only control draw distance, not density (unless I've forgotten something). As far as I know the only way to adjust the density is to modify the biome JSON files. Which I have done in the past to get things as I want. And I looked at the files on this add-on and the same could be done. But I'm kind of holding on to see if the dev makes a patch with adjustments before I start digging into it myself.
do you use the realistic tree height add on with this scenery pack?
I did not use any other tree mods to create this review. This is how it would install for anyone, as far as I know.
Looks like Santa Clarita. I hike towsley canyon too.
Both Bijan and Accuseason look to be much better products. I have both and have leaned towards Bijan. After seeing this review I would not recommend the ORBX product and would get Accuseason if you want something from ORBX.
Do you know if it works with Rex?
Rex is a weather mod, so I can't imagine any reason why not. *** reading further someone mentioned REX Accuseason, and I think that might be what you're asking about...
I don't have that one, and I would not know.. Sorry.
@@kurtvwSims no problem, thanks for showcasing.
Yes, I didn't think of the one you were thinking of. Lol goes both ways, haha no worries. I am talking about REX Accuseason. I will buy and try. Can't hurt
I was on the Orbx forum this morning and it looks like rex accuseason and HD Trees will not play nice together... People get square trees..
Seems like you'll have to pick one or the other.
Orbx stands for stutters
😂 This comment actually did make me laugh... On MOST of their scenery addon's, I absolutely agree, it should be their tag-line ORBX: We give you stutters.
Anyhow, not so with the trees, for me at least there was no performance hit at all.
You should have did a side-by-side
if i have to run a software for trees, well that is just sad
It's just an installer. It doesn't need to be running when you're using MSFS, but you do use any time you want to load different season textures. It kind of makes sense. But I get where you're coming from.
@@kurtvwSims I know it is. but still, this should be integrated, why do i need to choose where i am, what kind of trees do i have. meh
Isn't this kind of splitting hairs? It's really great that scenery fidelity in MSFS has given us the ability to complain about the type and density of trees , but I think this thing is going a little bit too far. Why does it really matter? Sure, from a visual standpoint I don't want trees in the middle of a highway, but I don't care how tall or how dense they are when, while just flying around, they come and go in my visual field.
To be clear, I don't normally sit around and examine trees that closely, although I do fly VFR most of the time in slow planes, and I do want the trees to be pointy in regions where they should be pointy and round in places where they should be round.
But the reason for the detail in the video, is that I want to help people who are thinking about this product see exactly what it does well, and where it isn't perfect. It makes a lot of promises on the website. Ppl should know what their money is getting them.
Thanks for watching!
Thanks for your review but I still wouldn't buy it whether it was perfect or not
It's not for everyone, that's for sure.
This add-on is to late !
MSFS 2024 implements better vegetation.
So i safe the add-on money and invest it in MSFS 2024.
Yes, it is pretty late. I think if it was more expensive I would have waited. Lets hope 2024 is as detailed as they promise!
Would never spend money for more realistic trees in a sim that’s whole objective is to get high and away from trees 😂
I can't imagine spending $70 on a long haul airliner where you click autopilot and go to sleep... We all use it differently. I mostly fly low and slow, and it matters for me.
@@kurtvwSims apples to oranges comparison because you can fly long haulers on med and short hops if you so please. You’re not restricted to long hauls because it’s a big plane. No different than putting a ga plane in ap at 5-10000’ and not seeing the trees you paid for.
@@kvan27 You're clearly not looking for an add-on like this. I was.
Thanks for watching.
@@kurtvwSims agreed, I do Bush, GA, and we run organized live broadcast STOL Competitions. Trees are very much a big part of life for GA/Bush boys like us!
@@kurtvwSims well said.