This vid really confirms the old mantra, 'it's a dance, not a stance' as she never gets caught in one position and stays dynamic through the turn. Oh and since it's me...shorten those poles a touch.
If it doesn’t rhyme, I ain’t got time. I hadn’t heard that dance rhyme before but it’s spot on. I think Peruvian05152 has two great comments here. The first is that tele is so fluid that it really feels a lot like dancing. The second great insight is about pole length. Most of the tele videos I’ve seen have people skiing with downhill length poles and their hands are way out to the side of their bodies. One of the best tips I ever got was to shorten my poles so that they are about chest height instead of shoulder height in the middle of your turn. This helps with balance as well as getting your arms and shoulders ready for the next turn. For reference, I ski with 110cm poles and I’m 5’9”. If I’m hiking I prefer 115”-125”. If I’m skinning I use adjustable poles or just hold onto the top of my pole. Lightweight poles are also a game changer. I love the tele tips videos. I’d like to hear your thoughts on pole length and would like to see a video on what the upper body should be doing while the legs are dancing.
HI Dostie, Great video and thanks for sharing. The movement pattern being displayed is actually a delayed lead change. Specifically she is completing the edge change (uphill edges to down hill edges) before she moves thru the lead change. Excellent video.
Wow, she can rip! I learned this technique at the Telemark Titan / GB National championship in France…not that I am any good at it. To me, I let my weight fall over the tip of the outside / front ski to engage the edge then pull back. It is a wonderful movement, creating dynamic instability. It does take some self confidence to attempt. Once, probably never to be repeated, I kept both skis on edge throughout the lead change, that was a long turn on a flattish smooth piste. That said, amazing to see her turn on the inside ski, the outside ski off the snow, which of course suited those conditions.
Someone taught me this as "lead from behind" - that wording continues the edge change/lead change confusion but coupled with more particular movements remains a helpful verbal shorthand. ("Bounce off the back" works too.) The two movements were 1) shift weight to the rear foot as you pull it back so you can initiate the next turn stepping off the rear foot and 2) pointing the rear knee into the turn before the tip of the ski crosses the fall line. Together the movements feel like leading from behind and you can't control the rear ski after edging it (movement no 2) unless you put down enough weight (movement no 1) so it's self-correcting. That's a lot of words but "lead from behind" or "bounce off the back" captures it, seems like what Dostie is preaching and definitely is what Diana Rivera is doing on video.
I think you mean, "Early edge change". Ski flattening starts, then lead change and continued edge change happen pretty much simultaneously. The problem is skiers do eary lead change then start turning. Those people do a lot of extra traversing between turns. Driving upper body forward via angulation, not to be confused with inclination, and combined with counter rotation (upper body pointing into new turn), gets you in position for early edge change. Lack of those two elements can also cause washout at the end of the turn as demonstrated in vid. Hey, nice skiing, though!
I agree with early edge change, but that’s not limited to telemark, it applies to alpine too. More specific to telemark is the delayed lead change, which is what i see at the slow motion part. Early edge change has probably more impact on for those carving turns, though.
I also think the description "getting weight on the rear foot early" is a very poor way to describe this technique. It's all about rolling onto the "outside edges" to initiate the turn early, and then "stepping back." The technique should be more properly called "early edge change" instead of "early lead change." It's really an early edge change and a fast lead change.
I learned this "early lead change" and "stepping back" technique in the 1993-1994 season at Santa Fe, and have been skiing this way ever since. Thirty years. I wish that I could thank my instructor again. Anyone know who was teaching this at Santa Fe back then?
Ripping turns, but this is more correctly termed a "delayed lead change." It could also be called "edge change before lead change." It's early edging and pressure on the new inside foot while it is still in more of an alpine stance from the previous turn.
Spread telemark . . . and spread this video. I recently went NTN and look forward to working on the "steer with the rear ski" approach. When I see telemark skiers on the slopes at the resorts, I usually cringe. The deep knee drop with the dangling rear foot just doesn't look cool to me. However, when I watched the skier in the video I thought "that's it !". That's what I want to look like some day.
When I learned this part of technique it was described to me as an early edge change. It is NOT an early lead change. Simply changing the term will help deliver the point you're making.
It's stepping forward with new leading ski as opposed to stepping back with the new rear ski. It's more natural and feels like walking. Also best way to rip zipper line moguls.
Think the terminology used here is not very good. I think calling it an "early edge change" would be better. "Change edge-then-turn"...(and with simultaneous front and rear ski edge change)..it's very good technique. But the critical point is moving to the new edge before the turn, not the relative front-back ski position.
I’m +1 Roger. I use the “edge change THEN lead change” mantra to remind myself. This helped me master holding an edge / carve from one turn all the way through into and out the next turn.
YES!!! I don't know why not everyone but so many of us call it early lead change. If you look carefully, and Dostie even says this right before calling it early lead change, at 4:08 and honestly in every turn Diana makes, she changes edges and is already carving before she changes leads. And both are happening well before her skis cross the fall line. I have always called it early edge change because the edge change is the turn whether you are skiing alpine or telemark. Changing leads makes it telemark but the turn happens because the skier changes edges. And sweet video of Niseko!
After watching and listening to your description I got the concept, thank you. Then I found this video in Japanese. ua-cam.com/video/TV7e1v8SX94/v-deo.html. They talk a lot but the essence of their discussion is as follows: Take the skis off the edge when the legs are together, then lead change, edging and telemark stance all happen in one motion after the fall line. The turn is very compact and under maximum control. Now I am wondering, telemark turn or alpine turn what's the difference, what's the point...
Thank you Craig for the movement analysis. It is great to watch it on slow motion. :)
Isn't this video from your site?
This vid really confirms the old mantra, 'it's a dance, not a stance' as she never gets caught in one position and stays dynamic through the turn. Oh and since it's me...shorten those poles a touch.
If it doesn’t rhyme, I ain’t got time. I hadn’t heard that dance rhyme before but it’s spot on. I think Peruvian05152 has two great comments here. The first is that tele is so fluid that it really feels a lot like dancing. The second great insight is about pole length. Most of the tele videos I’ve seen have people skiing with downhill length poles and their hands are way out to the side of their bodies. One of the best tips I ever got was to shorten my poles so that they are about chest height instead of shoulder height in the middle of your turn. This helps with balance as well as getting your arms and shoulders ready for the next turn. For reference, I ski with 110cm poles and I’m 5’9”. If I’m hiking I prefer 115”-125”. If I’m skinning I use adjustable poles or just hold onto the top of my pole. Lightweight poles are also a game changer.
I love the tele tips videos. I’d like to hear your thoughts on pole length and would like to see a video on what the upper body should be doing while the legs are dancing.
My word…those turns are incredible
HI Dostie,
Great video and thanks for sharing. The movement pattern being displayed is actually a delayed lead change. Specifically she is completing the edge change (uphill edges to down hill edges) before she moves thru the lead change. Excellent video.
That's correct. Edge change before lead change. Nice turns.
Wow, she can rip!
I learned this technique at the Telemark Titan / GB National championship in France…not that I am any good at it. To me, I let my weight fall over the tip of the outside / front ski to engage the edge then pull back. It is a wonderful movement, creating dynamic instability. It does take some self confidence to attempt. Once, probably never to be repeated, I kept both skis on edge throughout the lead change, that was a long turn on a flattish smooth piste. That said, amazing to see her turn on the inside ski, the outside ski off the snow, which of course suited those conditions.
Someone taught me this as "lead from behind" - that wording continues the edge change/lead change confusion but coupled with more particular movements remains a helpful verbal shorthand. ("Bounce off the back" works too.) The two movements were 1) shift weight to the rear foot as you pull it back so you can initiate the next turn stepping off the rear foot and 2) pointing the rear knee into the turn before the tip of the ski crosses the fall line. Together the movements feel like leading from behind and you can't control the rear ski after edging it (movement no 2) unless you put down enough weight (movement no 1) so it's self-correcting. That's a lot of words but "lead from behind" or "bounce off the back" captures it, seems like what Dostie is preaching and definitely is what Diana Rivera is doing on video.
Like the additional info and glad it checks out on your end. Thanks for watching. - Madsen
I think you mean, "Early edge change". Ski flattening starts, then lead change and continued edge change happen pretty much simultaneously. The problem is skiers do eary lead change then start turning. Those people do a lot of extra traversing between turns. Driving upper body forward via angulation, not to be confused with inclination, and combined with counter rotation (upper body pointing into new turn), gets you in position for early edge change. Lack of those two elements can also cause washout at the end of the turn as demonstrated in vid. Hey, nice skiing, though!
I agree with early edge change, but that’s not limited to telemark, it applies to alpine too. More specific to telemark is the delayed lead change, which is what i see at the slow motion part. Early edge change has probably more impact on for those carving turns, though.
Or maybe the combination: delayed lead change helps with early edge change?
Looking forward to trying this out this week. Maybe this will finally get me on edge!
Great to see and hear that articulated. I have found myself intuitively doing that in recent years.
Excellent! - Madsen
I also think the description "getting weight on the rear foot early" is a very poor way to describe this technique. It's all about rolling onto the "outside edges" to initiate the turn early, and then "stepping back." The technique should be more properly called "early edge change" instead of "early lead change." It's really an early edge change and a fast lead change.
I learned this "early lead change" and "stepping back" technique in the 1993-1994 season at Santa Fe, and have been skiing this way ever since. Thirty years. I wish that I could thank my instructor again. Anyone know who was teaching this at Santa Fe back then?
Awesome. I was told to do this today and boom
Found this video. Thanks
Rock n' roll! - Madsen
Ripping turns, but this is more correctly termed a "delayed lead change." It could also be called "edge change before lead change." It's early edging and pressure on the new inside foot while it is still in more of an alpine stance from the previous turn.
Spread telemark . . . and spread this video. I recently went NTN and look forward to working on the "steer with the rear ski" approach. When I see telemark skiers on the slopes at the resorts, I usually cringe. The deep knee drop with the dangling rear foot just doesn't look cool to me. However, when I watched the skier in the video I thought "that's it !". That's what I want to look like some day.
Love it! She's a great skier and fun to watch. Let me know how it goes and hit me up with any questions on the NTN setup. Cheers - Madsen
When I learned this part of technique it was described to me as an early edge change. It is NOT an early lead change. Simply changing the term will help deliver the point you're making.
Thanks for watching. - Madsen
It's stepping forward with new leading ski as opposed to stepping back with the new rear ski. It's more natural and feels like walking. Also best way to rip zipper line moguls.
Thx for the tips. - Madsen
Get her on some Bishop BMFs!!!
So what became of Diana Rivera? I'd like to see more from her.
Think the terminology used here is not very good. I think calling it an "early edge change" would be better. "Change edge-then-turn"...(and with simultaneous front and rear ski edge change)..it's very good technique. But the critical point is moving to the new edge before the turn, not the relative front-back ski position.
I’m +1 Roger. I use the “edge change THEN lead change” mantra to remind myself.
This helped me master holding an edge / carve from one turn all the way through into and out the next turn.
YES!!! I don't know why not everyone but so many of us call it early lead change. If you look carefully, and Dostie even says this right before calling it early lead change, at 4:08 and honestly in every turn Diana makes, she changes edges and is already carving before she changes leads. And both are happening well before her skis cross the fall line. I have always called it early edge change because the edge change is the turn whether you are skiing alpine or telemark. Changing leads makes it telemark but the turn happens because the skier changes edges. And sweet video of Niseko!
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Dostie explains it as such, essentially, but I do think that would be a better "nutshell" to put it in.
+ 1 for more sizes of Telemark boots. I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum (i.e., big-@$$ feet) and still stuck in 75MM. Common Scarpa....
Edge change before lead change…aka west coast style
West coast style? Never heard of that!
I would think the right coast would have come up with that considering snow conditions...but hey! - Madsen
After watching and listening to your description I got the concept, thank you. Then I found this video in Japanese. ua-cam.com/video/TV7e1v8SX94/v-deo.html. They talk a lot but the essence of their discussion is as follows: Take the skis off the edge when the legs are together, then lead change, edging and telemark stance all happen in one motion after the fall line. The turn is very compact and under maximum control. Now I am wondering, telemark turn or alpine turn what's the difference, what's the point...