Ehhh....this is gonna drag on for at least a year or two. Unless they're able to enforce an embargo on sales ARM's gonna need to file another lawsuit to embargo sales of v8 products which is gonna take another few years. And it's possible that we may see RISC-V products enter the mainstream mass market by 2028-2030
People have been saying Arms going to replace x86 for the last 30+ years.... ...is there any chance RISC-V replaces arm in mobile devices? (even if it's only a minority of the market similar to how smartphones all used to have different chips 15 years ago).
it wouldnt be impossble due to if i am not mistaken most of android runs on top of a java like VM so if its backend is ported over normal software should just work.
(I misremembered, disregard this!) @@cj09beiraI believe android still requires specialised builds for separate architectures (especially if using native libraries or code). IIRC the few x86 android devices that were released faced this problem.
@@miss-magic-maya They didn't really because of some excellent work done by Intel in their HAXM project if I remember correctly. I have one of those tablets in a drawer and it was a decent little with no noticable compatibility challenges.
RISC-V is good for things like micro controller. but for more high performance stuff like CPU they are not quite there yet. plus the fragmentation seems worse with RISC-V right now. yes the ISA is open source but everyone that use the ISA also adding their proprietary stuff into it. so even if company A,B,C are using RISC-V you might need to do specific implementation on each of them rather than make one implementation than can work on all three. this makes targeting the platform much harder than the already established x86 or ARM.
@@arenzricodexd4409 the whole idea of RISC-V is to be within the ISA's specified by the entity. If someone is taking customization to the next level then it is understood that its not risc-V anymore. Risc-V is more about universal software compatibility rather than hardware at its core. No compiler expense blah blah blah. For a company like qualcomm they dont really care about that, the compiler is the least of their problems. The actual core, how well optimized each instruction is and how well the pipeline is laid out. Risc-V is on the rise and some players in the field are doing good but yeah they ain't anywhere near industry leader levels of optimization and pipelining.
@@arenzricodexd4409 sure but they said accelerating not replacing tomorrow. Anyone that depends on arm is going to be looking at this and realizing that arm can seriously screw them up on a whim. That means the likes of Qualcomm and even apple are going to be considering if it's smart to continue with arm long term. If those companies were to get behind risc v and start rapidly accelerating it with the intent to replace arm the number of years away risc v was will rapidly shrink
I don’t believe ARM is on any immediate danger for the short or medium term. Apple alone provides stiff enough competition that other smartphone makers cannot compromise user experience to go RISC V. And as there’s no legitimately comparable option in the RISC V space currently, that will be some years away.
RISCV is definitely still long term i agree, but its a nearer long term than its ever been. architecture changes still take a very long time, PPC to X86, X86 to ARM, ARM to RISCV, but its now all but certain for embedded and Android SOCs. open standards are just a much more stable base. Apple likely won't be very quick this time around though, and ARM will still have a large market because of their standard core design and legacy software. i'm not gonna bother with an ARM PC tho. i'll keep my ARM phone, maybe an ARM laptop, but i'll hold out on X86 PC until RISCV comes in.
It's pretty much ARM building bridges people would get to in the future, it might not yet impact the current business, but long term people now know they don't want to keep doing ARM.
If Qualcomm can design custom ARM cores, then they already have capability to design similarly performing risc-v cores. Only thing stopping them is the android app ecosystem that heavily depends on ARM. This lawsuit might just give them enough of a push to switch to RISC-V and make some sort of emulation layer for app compatibility similar to how android x86 does it.
@@arenzricodexd4409 after acquiring nuvia, they only moved away from using ARM reference core designs to their custom ones, but the instruction set is still ARM.
I'm guessing Apple already has a RISCV team, the entire "they're too big to be in danger" might sound good to outsiders. But inside the company a RISCV translation and pilot project is probably a couple tens of millions a year, barely a footnote on the balance sheet versus the risk (risc?) even if that risk is
Apple dont like RISCV as the ISA is garbage and adding soo many intrins to make it as powerful as arm64 with SVE2 and SME2 + atomics and MTE is too much of a hassle. And if apple switches to RISCV Their optimizations are down the toilet, the supported native apps too. Risc V is crap, not a uniform architecture, Slow weak intrinsics if it has any. Nah
One of the stupidest contracts is between Microsoft and Qualcomm that windows on arm can't be run on SOCs other than Qualcomms with their license being revoked this might fix itself
that exclusivity contract ends in 2 months anyway. Expires 2024) just because your OS will run on Arm , doesn't mean your windows apps will. still a long way for that market to mature, MS are still years behind apple.
@@quantumbacon I have tried arm-linux and software compatibilty isn't really a problem there, If only qualcomm worked on linux support instead of wasting time on windows.
@@Cooe. plus Anything that had hardware acceleration running on software emulation (not even transpiled) on a CPU.. that's a lost cause Eg codecs for video, any maths compute libraries for scientific work.
It's fair, QUALCOMM sue Interl over generic patents. It's good they have to pay this time what is fair. Also they buy Nuvia to get a hold on Apple designs and procedures, and they succedd, I am ok with them having to pay ARM.
Qualcomm just wants to blame ARM of being monopolistic and Qualcomthought they could checkmate ARM(which was giving favorable treatment to a young fledgling startup in an anti-competitive market). so Qualcomm goes and does the anti-competitive monopolistic move right out of Facebook's playbook (to buy Instagram), by buying up Nuvia. nonetheless acquiring and dissolving the entity known as Nuvia such that it effectively seizes to exist, and now is just Qualcomm (because Qualcomm is not Nuvia and if we made a contract with Qualcomm we wouldnt refer to them as Nuvia lol just imagine that level of trolling if we did), means that any agreements need to be redefined in terms of the ARM/Qualcomm relationship. The ARM/Nuvia relationship no longer exists after the startup is dissolved and Qualcomm is not liable to maintain any relationship with a startup entity that does not exist. but Qualcomm exists after it absorbed Nuvia. it only makes sense that ARM would want to define their agreements with Qualcomm as though it was negotiating with the powerful entity that is Qualcomm and is not a mere startup like Nuvia. ARM's case is not merely drama because on their side they are helping foster a competitive chip space. No different to how Microsoft helped foster the rise of computers inevery home through back when IBM dominated the compute machine space
I don't think any injunction would go Arm's way. The two parties were already involved in legal proceedings. When deciding on whether to enforce an injunction, the court usually asks themselves which course of action will be hardest to remedy once the legal case is over. It would be nearly impossible to remedy the decision to destroy Qualcomm's business, should they happen to win. Meanwhile, if Arm happen to win, then the remedy is simple, and Qualcomm would be ordered to pay some additional royalties on the chips they are currently selling. On top of this, the court might not look kindly on the fact that one party is trying to damage the other party outside of the current legal proceedings. This seems like a counterproductive move to me. This makes working with arm look risky, and I don't see any upside for them.
One thing I'm interested in is the legal implications. These are massive patent / copyright disputes in public. Qualcomm might go after the IP itself. Since I have a feeling both of those are on shaky ground. There are also legal requirements for licensing some of these things, and that's going to be another big part of this fight. The other interesting aspect is regulation. ARM has had the NVIDIA acquisition stopped before, and ARM chips currently have a monopoly on the smartphone market. Even if politicians don't do anything, the EU could look at this as a monopoly supplier directly competing with it's customers and just cutting those customers off. Which was the concern about NVIDIA in the first place. Regulators could break the ARM architecture licensing part into a different company.
The Irrational Analysis writeup is actually quite interesting. Basically, Qualcomm possesses *two* architectural licenses - one from the pre-Nuvia days for mobile devices and one from the Nuvia acquisition. It sounds like Qualcomm may be successful in the argument that Oryon v2 is a clean sheet design and as such covered under Qualcomm’s original license and therefore even if Qualcomm loses the lawsuit, it might only impact the Snapdragon X SoC which would be far less costly and disruptive to Qualcomm. The news today is that Arm appears to have cancelled Qualcomm’s original architectural license and on that license Qualcomm seems to be in a stronger legal position than the Nuvia one.
I don’t think I’ve heard a single word from Rene Haas that hasn’t been snake oil. I’d be shocked if he was willing to talk publicly with someone technically competent and answer real questions.
well it's 90% owned by Softbank a very competent investment bank behind such genius strategies such as WireCard and WeWork so I'm sure they understand the market really well yeah.... /s
No, Qualcomm did. They should have clarified with ARM what they could do with that license before committing billions to new peoducts. If I bought a company I wouldn't just assume the Office license on all their computers is automatically transfered to me. Would you?
@@terrycrews1584 just because you paid a license to use Office 2019 doesn't mean you have a license to customize and resell Office 2021. That's why you call your legal department first, and they call ARM's. *Assumption is the mother of all fuckups.*
@@terrycrews1584 Because that's how businesses work. This is really like some TV channels during negotiation of contracts with providers like DISH and Direct TV. Well TECHNICALLY, and they get a new contract with better terms for them, more money, and so on. ARM doesn't want Qualcomm gone. They just want to get more money from them because they can. Greed is the way businesses work. It's THE ONLY business model. They could've quietly brought this up to Qualcomm when they purchased Nuvia, explained their concerns about using previous agreements moving forward, and negotiated in good faith at the time. Qualcomm could have approached them as well, but decided to gamble on these things not being called into question. Both do what is best for their bottom line. In this case, Qualcomm is going to have to pay. Whether or not that's right, ethically, is really not a factor. Courts will base their judgement on legality, which is not always the same as basing them on what is ethical. Here, neither party is really in the right anyway.
It will be interesting to see how the industry reacts. Will the other license holders see this as Arm stealing Qualcomm’s revenue, or will the feeling be it is justified? Do we see a mass exodus from arm to risc v or some other open design? Or do they stay put? At a minimum I’d expect Qualcomm to explore other options. Going to be an interesting 5 years.
Given Qualcomm’s history most of them are hoping ARM wins. Broadcom, Qualcomm, Oracle, and Nvidia are the four worst POS to deal with concerning licensing.
They probably going to cheer on ARM to put some hurt on Qualcomm haha. Some SoC maker have to quit smartphone market because how Qualcomm abuse their modem/baseband licensing. Just a few week ago QC asking Infinix (a brand that gaining popularity in asian market) to pay roayalties to them despite no infinix phone use QC chip.
Game of chicken apparently. Either ARM blinks and restores the license, afraid of every major customer switching to RISC-V or Qualcomm blinks and pays up.
@@AHarmlessPyro true. But current state of "let's dabble in RISC-V" can transition to "let's create a department to develop CPUs just in case" , which may spell doom for Arm in 5 years
Qualcomm's handheld division raked in $5.9B last quarter. At 5.5%, that means they could spend some $1.3B in RISC-V R&D chip design every single year and still break even.
This most likely will go wrong for ARM. I understand what they are trying to do...but ARM trying to overplay this for it's size. For pulling something like this requires broad product range and deep revenue. Now regardless QUALCOMM and ARM do settlement all major ARM customers will rush to find alternatives which essentially will push ARM is bad position. The only scenario I can think for ARM's benefit is they directly wants to be Qualcomm like SOC supplier to lot of smartphone manufacturers.
Licenses have terms. It should be easy for lawyers to determine if those terms have been broken. If so, Qualcomm shouldn't get away with it or everyone's gonna start messing with ARM.
This is a loss for Qualcomm, ARM and android ecosystem while being a win for Apple and RISC-V. In the long run, I can see android transitioning to RISC-V while ARM being acquired by Apple after losing most of its android market share.
Apple cannot acquire ARM just like Nvidia could not aquire ARM. Apple can switch away from ARM at the blink of an eye so this is completely ARM hurting itself and taking Qualcomm down with them.
@@ashishpatel350 Apple is so fucking evil. Great products. But every single employee I know who works there and I know a few are ruthless scumbags. NICE PEOPLE to your face!! But horrible shitbags with no moral standards if you get to know them. Of course people who have no moral standards basically never know this about themselves. But you can tell by the fact their standards change with the winds of culture they don't really have any. They'll screw you over at the first chance the culture-winds make it acceptable. Nvidia ironically being in some ways more hated, has great people as employees! All 12 people I know over at Nvidia are kinda rough in personality they're not "chill" like the Apple people... but they'll BEND OVER BACKWARDS to do the right thing by you. AWESOME AWESOME culture over at Nvidia. Intel is just a bunch of H1B's who don't really gaf as long as they're paid. They're not nice. They're not mean. They're just overpaid middle-managers subsidized by your tax dollars and they don't really care if something is the right decision or not, just that their reports show THEIR middle-managers they're doing a great job. And if you look at Intel's decision making over the last 10years it starts to make sense in that light. Want to understand a company? Look at the corporate culture of the average employee. They're a reflection on the collective direction of the whole company.
Android RISC-V is already a thing. The main component needed would be high performance dynamic binary translation from AArch64 for compatibility with the broader ecosystem.
This is the best advertisement for people to invest in Risc V chip development... ARM is now a monopoly in many sectors and should be careful about its acts, because monopolistic companies can get a big huge fine in some regions (EU are you watching?) or can be forced to split... It takes years but that's not a good strategy for the investors. And Qualcomm is not better overall let's face it... And they probably should have paid a new licence for developing a new range of products as you describe. Hope they will settle this quickly because it can only hurt all the industry.
If Qualcomm can't sell chips, that void will be quickly filled with other chips as there are many to choose from. They may not be as good, sure, but if they are the only ones you can buy, companies like Samsung will just use other chips. What would be pretty interesting if Qualcomm is able to pivot. Qualcomm says "ok you win" but then goes full steam ahead with RISC-V and makes as good/superior processors. Other companies that see this could also do the same thing. Take for example, Apple. Apple is a company I would not be surprised in the future they pivot to RISC regardless, and maybe this would speed up that process.
This would be hilarious if ARM follows through but I can see Microsoft intervening because otherwise their investment will be circling the drain. I do see ARM's point on licensing based on market size.
Unless MSFT replaces QCOM Snapdragon Elite CPU with Nvidia’s new ARM PC CPU next year. & Nvidia PC CPU will support external GPU which QCOM doesn’t support!
Qualcomm oughta give ARM the finger and go all in on Risc-v f*** them. I'm sure they'll love actually getting to keep all their profits not having to pay a share of the royalties to Arm anymore. All of us consumers can benefit from cheaper and more efficient chips too
@@tringuyen7519 The samsung s10 tablet switched from a qualcomm processor in the previous models to a mediatek processor. Maybe this dispute had something to do with it.
Just say no to chips. Electrical resistance is futile. What I want for next X-mass are cubes stacked top to bottom side to side to side with nano scale optical gates in a fully 3D matrix.
depends. if that bigger player end up your biggest torn later maybe it is better to get rid of them right now. qualcomm also have their issues. remember when Qualcomm try to acquire NXP before? that effort end up being blocked by regulators because Qualcomm have history of abusing their position when they own certain tech.
Qualcomm most likely want to ditch ARM in the future. hence why they bought Nuvia in the first place. but thing is from what i heard Nuvia also one of ARM licensee. ARM are jumping the gun before something similar to Imagination vs Apple happen to them.
Lol, it was true a decade ago.. but recently even MediaTek have bigger market share like Qualcomm.. (just in the past 1 year MediaTek raised 7% while Qualcomm fall back with 5% and they switched in position.. so Qualcomm just the 3rd biggest manufacturer..) btw what happens if Snapdragon dismiss? MediaTek or Apple will raise even more, who are still have ARM license.. that won't mean that the yearly amount of Android phones will fall back from 1billion to "just" 700million, that 300million phone simply will use another chip from other brand..
I wonder how much modification would be required to turn Oryon 2 into a RISC-V core? There would probably be front-end redesign necessary, and you'd need new microcode for the back end, and the result might not be horribly well optimized, so it's not something Qualcomm would likely spend money on developing in normal circumstances, but it might be a viable emergency project.
even if they do move to risc-v, how about the software support? it's not like you can just move from one architecture to another and expects everything to work like before.
@@iamwisdomsky It's not a magic bullet, it would still be painful for them, but Google is already looking at a RISC-V port for Android, and ARM continuing to be maximally aggressive will probably accelerate those plans, so at least one major bit of software that a lot of their chips end up running would already be headed in that direction.
it could be that they are just cancelling to force qualcomm into signing a new, custom, license that charges qualcomm more per processor for v8 arm(like they have in oryon) but at the end of the day this is just going to push a LOT of companies to start building stuff on risc-v
From what I understood this cancelation is only for Qualcomm's Orion CPU designs specifically the design Qualcomm received from Nuvia's acquisition. Qualcomm can go back to their own previous Kryo core designs.
couple of weeks ago, the wallstreetbros were talking about qualcomm acquiring intel. Now their core existence is in danger. That's what they don't get. Intel isn't just about their CPUs, its their Fabs and license which make them what they are truly.
@@ashishpatel350 No that one is actually way worse, at least there are alternatives to ARM, 5G is pretty much mandatory and Qcomm gets to extort large amounts of money from mobile handset vendors.
Yeah, Qualcomm is pretty big, but they also have NXP, Apple, Broadcom, Microchip, Ti, Mediatek, and a whole bunch of others that I can't think of off the top of my head. I am sure they will be fine even if they cannot come to resolution.
Why is it mentioned has double royalty hit?. They just moved from V9 to V8 but my understanding is ALA royalty is more than TLA royalty, please correct me if an wrong.
As RISC-V grows, ARM's main value will be in their pre-designed cores. Though this could easily change with any company allowed to design and license Risc-V cores. I see most RISC-V companies keeping designs in house the way Intel and AMD do with their respective x86 cores(and nVidia with GPUs), because the licensing of RISC-V cores could quickly become a race to minimum margin as anyone can create and offer a RISC-V blueprint.
ARM is kind of wary of the current RISC-V development. Since its main product is licensing cores, I think this bold move is done to quickly squeeze out as much cash as possible from Qualcomm. ARM knows that Qualcomm cannot just pour down the R&D spent on developing their new chips and their acquisition of Nuvia, so they are aiming for an 'easy cash grab' as Qualcomm's business model heavily depends on ARM. Honestly, if this works out for ARM, then it would boost their earnings a lot but they essentially lost all trust any partner had towards them. This really highlights one of the main reasons technological development is currently slowing down because we really care more about financial gains instead of pushing technological advancement forward.
@@proesterchen Qualcomm already had a license, and they bought a company that also had bought another license, as Qualcomm sees it they already payed twice. Arm is for sure the one bitting here. "not technically for this application" .... bro they payed twice, be flexible else it will bite you in the ass later.
@@cj09beira Just because you have a license doesn't mean you are properly licensed. And I'm virtually certain Qualcomm are among the group of companies rather familiar with the distinction.
Huh? Since when are we just assuming that ARM is going to replace x86 in desktop/laptop? I've been hearing this most of my life, yet ARM laptops are still... flawed, at best. And now overpriced. ARM has basically went from being "Chromebook" to "Chromebook: Windows Edition", except with a 'premium price'.
@@RyTrapp0 Qualcomm's pricing thinking they had the prestige of Apple is laughable. Literally _no one_ brags about having a Qualcomm device. AMD has their fair share of frothing at the mouth fanboys, especially now that they actually _do_ have class leading products, but nothing close to Apple's absolute cult members. Apple is an anomaly. They have extremely mediocre products at stupidly expensive prices, while being the most anti-consumer corporation on the planet. The only thing they excel at is making really good wrappers that fool the stupid. Apple's own products would never sell to the Apple cultists if it didn't carry the Apple logo. For Qualcomm to think their name pulls that level of weight is laughably out of touch with reality and destroyed their first attempt at entering the PC space. Qualcomm needs to tiptoe in with much more humility and a lot less bravado because PC users are the ones that _aren't_ stupid enough to be Apple cultists. To stroll in with hardware inferior to Apple, infinitely more bugs and incompatibilities, and to ask Apple pricing from a community that already shuns Apple to begin with shows an alarming lack of self awareness.
@@RyTrapp0 Well, intel has been having some major problems lately, and is likely going to continue to have trouble in the near term at least, as they have insufficient funds to do enough R & D. I have even seen people talking of Qualcomm taking over Intel. This may even be a possibility, given the current difficulties that Qualcomm is having as well.
@11:58 I believe that if Qualcomm's royalty rate goes down from 4-5.5% to 2-2.5%, that's not a 2% drop: it's a 50%+ drop. Corporate wars have been fought for much, much less, and if you told me you were going to halve my profits, I'd probably go to the (metaphorical) mattresses myself.
So question Ian, let us the license is cancelled and there is nothing Qualcomm can do about it. What happens to smartphones which are on sale/in stores and using SoCs which were covered under said license? Are they pulled off the shelf? I am aware that new or existing devices which use this license would not be able to be imported, but is this globally or only in certain major markets?
Only 8 ELITE AND X ELITE WILL BE CANCELLED AS NUVIA IE ORYON CAN ONLY BE USED FOR SEVER CHIPS NOT MOBILE CHIPS SO QULCOM COULD STILL USED STOCK ARM CORES THAT THEY WERW USING SINCE 888 AND 9400 BEAT 8 ELITE IN CPU IT HAS 50% MORE IMPROVMENT USING STOCK CORES BUT BUT SNAPGRAGON GOT GULITY LAWSUIT WAS FILED WHEN IT BOUGHT NUVIA AND XELITE CAME IN ITS IN DECEMBER THIS YEAR EXCAT 53 DAYS PLUS ARM CANCELATION MEANS 60 DAYS IT SIMPLY MEANS THIS YEAR IT WILL BE MEDIATEK 9400 AND EXYNOS 2500 ONCE SAMSUNG GETS ITS YELID ISSUES FIXED IF ARM WINS SO BASICALLY QULCOM IS SCREWED
Does ARM really have to worry about RISC 5 given the strong arm negotiating for Qualcomm licensing tech. Qualcomm does not have much goodwill in industry.
How much of what's good in the Nuvia design is ARM specific and how much could they reuse when making a good RISC-V processor? I wouldn't be surprised if Qualcomm had a plan B using RISC-V for quite a while.
Imagine being an arm customer and seeing how petty they are while also increasing costs and competing with you with their own turnkey designs. No love for QUALCOMM they have had shitty business practices in the past. Sucks to be a company that uses QUALCOMM chips, have nothing to do with it and getting shit on. oh the chips you were using are no longer available looks like you will have to redesign your hardware and software.
Qualcomm is driven by employees and not filthy rich ceo's with minting money only as the goal. please stop hating Qualcomm. The CEO during whose tenure issues have happened is long gone more than 10 years ago. Now it's just the employees driving the company. Qualcomm is trying to reduce power usage if you want fight with nvidia CEO who is ambitious on power usage if his plans succeed half the world will have no power
How much would Qualcomm have to change their architecture such that it isn't still considered arm? Could they so that and then put a translation layer on top of it?
its a bold move by arm. what exactly do they think is going to happen if they ban what is essentially their biggest customer? cant collect royalties if you dont let people make chips.
My guess, they believe they can make all Qualcomm customers pivot to using those ARM standard cores making royalties a moot point. If their gamble pays off, which is likely because there isn't a strong alternative, they'll directly get most of the revenue and profit that was going to Qualcomm before.
ARM is not stupid enough to cut off revenue received from its biggest customer Qualcomm. It is just trying to force a settlement before the court case between the two which is scheduled to begin in the federal court in Delaware in December.
Qualcomm's competitive advantage is not Arm it is Radio modems, So if they pivots to Risk-5 they could blow a blow up arms monopoly on the smartphone segment.
Arm is Arm's biggest enemy and the biggest hurdle to ever being the dominant PC platform for the world. It's honestly surprising they've been so dominant in smartphones as it is when they've become more and more toxic to do business with by the year. I assumed it was the weight of Apple that kept Arm honest but I thought the same of Qualcomm as well. This is exactly the kick in the pants RISC-V needs to accelerate it's maturation. Someone should let them know their name is Arm, and not StrongArm.
Qualcomm could be the RISC-V mvp and make an OPEN ecosystem so when people would go for any risc-v laptop or sbc or desktop/workstation, they would go for a qualcomm one. A man can dream...
I think the best thing Qualcomm can do right now is to delay, litigate, buy time...while spending a few billion to try to get something like RISC V up to speed as quickly as possible. That's a hard bullet to bite, but once they do so, they'll be free from their chains.
I wouldn't be surprised if Qualcomm begrudgingly agrees to new licensing/royalty terms, taking a hit to their margins for a couple of years - whether that be meeting ARM's terms entirely, or somewhere in the middle. Ultimately this seems like a short-term win for ARM, but a longer term loss - no doubt Qualcomm and other ARM licensees will start pouring *significantly* more R&D capital into alternative architectures (RISC-V) until it's at a sufficiently strong/competitive place... at which point, ARM could be left with very few customers, or have to significantly reduce their licensing royalties.
I don't think Qualcomm will lose this. I think Arm jumped in too early. However, this will not be a win for either side. Arm is not exactly dead, but it is now closer to death than ever at this point.
Does that mean nobody else can develop a custom core with arm isa except apple or arm only has problems with Qualcomm's custom core due to nuvia license agreements.
Its due to nuvia agreements nuvia custom cores can only be used for sever chips not mobile or laptop lawsuit was filed at time of X elite its hearing is in december 53 days later from now
The problem is, Qualcomm just show how useless arm core design is..... The best situation for ARM is Qualcomm pays, anything other than that, would be a huge loss for ARM.
Arm are clearly trying to make more money out of their business model. They need to be careful as £50 per hour is only greater than £20 per hour if hours are greater than zero. If I were other clients I would be looking to eliminate a potential single-point-of-failure (captive market) risk ASAP 🤨🧐🤨
Qualcomm put itself on a plate with all the trimmings with a little wooden stick saying "well done". Problem with Qualcomm is there are a lot of players with fork and knife in their hands eager to devour this well done piece of steak. People are talking about new development or something else. The market has no patience and increasingly demanding something new something better on a ever faster cycle. I can think of several, not even counting private equities who are able and willing to devour Qualcomm given half a chance.
Seems ARM is trying to choose winners and losers. They are negociating royalties, there is no need to block customers from a product. Judges should throw out the license refusal and wait for the royalty determination.
Qualcomm did refund the developer for windows on arm... So for Windows on ARM that's a bleak outlook. Otherwise... Qualcomm can also develop RISC-V chips. Should not matter to them or does it? It would be great if we would ger powerful RISC-V cores. Regardless of who wins, both are loosing.
Sadly the teams that are dealing with the legal stuff probably have their own timing and who knows where their true allegiance lies? The snapdragon 8 elite was supposed to be the device that really starts to introduce ARM to a larger market, now they have a problem.
![[38] We're not even at PCIe 6.0 Yet!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bGwRzWNhbX8/mqdefault.jpg)
licence terms canceled in 60 days, for products that have a 2-4 year lead cycle? what a mess ..
Ehhh....this is gonna drag on for at least a year or two. Unless they're able to enforce an embargo on sales ARM's gonna need to file another lawsuit to embargo sales of v8 products which is gonna take another few years.
And it's possible that we may see RISC-V products enter the mainstream mass market by 2028-2030
Maybe you should read the fine print before you use the license then... Otherwise they couldn't revoke it at all
Increasing the costs of getting ARM while RISC-V is on the rise is a bold move.
They want to take the money now before RISC-V takes over and they see their profits plummet.
It'd be good for everyone, if RISC-V took over, so im not complaining.
Another company that may be set back by that verdict is Microsoft who got big plans with Qualcomm to tackle apple.
Its A Bold Strategy Cotton, Lets See If It Pays Off For Em
@@aladdin8623 they didn't seem that dedicated to the cause, so it's their loss
This should cause a lot of potential risk assessment by all of ARM's customers. Licensing has it's place but this may shake that model a bit.
@@wfb.subtraktor311I see what you did there
one might even say a lot of RISC assessment…
@@owenyin3316 I think the reference was implicit...
People have been saying Arms going to replace x86 for the last 30+ years....
...is there any chance RISC-V replaces arm in mobile devices? (even if it's only a minority of the market similar to how smartphones all used to have different chips 15 years ago).
it wouldnt be impossble due to if i am not mistaken most of android runs on top of a java like VM so if its backend is ported over normal software should just work.
(I misremembered, disregard this!)
@@cj09beiraI believe android still requires specialised builds for separate architectures (especially if using native libraries or code). IIRC the few x86 android devices that were released faced this problem.
@@miss-magic-maya Yep, they had a MIPS build too (only used for a few chinese devices in about 2015).
@@miss-magic-maya They didn't really because of some excellent work done by Intel in their HAXM project if I remember correctly.
I have one of those tablets in a drawer and it was a decent little with no noticable compatibility challenges.
X86 still there so .... I don't think RISCV can replace x86 or ARM in next 5 years
Entire industry wants to replace arm with RISCV. ARM just accelerating the process right now.
RISC-V is good for things like micro controller. but for more high performance stuff like CPU they are not quite there yet. plus the fragmentation seems worse with RISC-V right now. yes the ISA is open source but everyone that use the ISA also adding their proprietary stuff into it. so even if company A,B,C are using RISC-V you might need to do specific implementation on each of them rather than make one implementation than can work on all three. this makes targeting the platform much harder than the already established x86 or ARM.
@@arenzricodexd4409 the whole idea of RISC-V is to be within the ISA's specified by the entity. If someone is taking customization to the next level then it is understood that its not risc-V anymore. Risc-V is more about universal software compatibility rather than hardware at its core. No compiler expense blah blah blah. For a company like qualcomm they dont really care about that, the compiler is the least of their problems. The actual core, how well optimized each instruction is and how well the pipeline is laid out. Risc-V is on the rise and some players in the field are doing good but yeah they ain't anywhere near industry leader levels of optimization and pipelining.
@@arenzricodexd4409 sure but they said accelerating not replacing tomorrow. Anyone that depends on arm is going to be looking at this and realizing that arm can seriously screw them up on a whim. That means the likes of Qualcomm and even apple are going to be considering if it's smart to continue with arm long term. If those companies were to get behind risc v and start rapidly accelerating it with the intent to replace arm the number of years away risc v was will rapidly shrink
Qualcomm got Qualcommed
Qualcomm also got strong-armed by ARM. Will Qualcomm lose its ARM wrestling match? The court will decide.
ARM flexing its, well, arm, is sure to drive more impetus to RISC-V, to De-Risk their portfolio and to avoid getting blindsided by changes like these.
QCOM RISC-V R&D is pathetic! Tenstorrent is 10x better than QCOM will ever be!
Qualcomm do the same to firms that use their SoC designs, so this is a little amusing.
@@tringuyen7519 QCOM made 9B profit last year. if they decide to spend on RISC-V your statement will be false fast.
@@blaser80no they don't ... They don't sell their soc designs lol
Here I thought my puns were bad. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 thanks for the laugh
I don’t believe ARM is on any immediate danger for the short or medium term. Apple alone provides stiff enough competition that other smartphone makers cannot compromise user experience to go RISC V. And as there’s no legitimately comparable option in the RISC V space currently, that will be some years away.
RISCV is definitely still long term i agree, but its a nearer long term than its ever been. architecture changes still take a very long time, PPC to X86, X86 to ARM, ARM to RISCV, but its now all but certain for embedded and Android SOCs. open standards are just a much more stable base. Apple likely won't be very quick this time around though, and ARM will still have a large market because of their standard core design and legacy software.
i'm not gonna bother with an ARM PC tho. i'll keep my ARM phone, maybe an ARM laptop, but i'll hold out on X86 PC until RISCV comes in.
It's pretty much ARM building bridges people would get to in the future, it might not yet impact the current business, but long term people now know they don't want to keep doing ARM.
If Qualcomm can design custom ARM cores, then they already have capability to design similarly performing risc-v cores. Only thing stopping them is the android app ecosystem that heavily depends on ARM. This lawsuit might just give them enough of a push to switch to RISC-V and make some sort of emulation layer for app compatibility similar to how android x86 does it.
@@destiny_02 switch to RISC-V? isn't that qualcomm buying nuvia so they can have something of their own rather than ARM or RISC-V?
@@arenzricodexd4409 after acquiring nuvia, they only moved away from using ARM reference core designs to their custom ones, but the instruction set is still ARM.
I'm guessing Apple already has a RISCV team, the entire "they're too big to be in danger" might sound good to outsiders. But inside the company a RISCV translation and pilot project is probably a couple tens of millions a year, barely a footnote on the balance sheet versus the risk (risc?) even if that risk is
I doubt the company that basically started arm will abandon them.
Like some arm stuff, but I prefer x86 for its ease of support.
Apple does seem generally not keen on the idea of other companies being able to mess up and hurt them.
Apple doesnt have a team they will end buying or hiring engineers.
Everything apple sells is 3rd party tech like siri, face id
Apple dont like RISCV as the ISA is garbage and adding soo many intrins to make it as powerful as arm64 with SVE2 and SME2 + atomics and MTE
is too much of a hassle.
And if apple switches to RISCV
Their optimizations are down the toilet, the supported native apps too.
Risc V is crap, not a uniform architecture,
Slow weak intrinsics if it has any.
Nah
If you think atomics are some special part of ARM you have no idea what you're talking about. 😂 @@PKperformanceEU
One of the stupidest contracts is between Microsoft and Qualcomm that windows on arm can't be run on SOCs other than Qualcomms with their license being revoked this might fix itself
that exclusivity contract ends in 2 months anyway. Expires 2024)
just because your OS will run on Arm , doesn't mean your windows apps will.
still a long way for that market to mature, MS are still years behind apple.
@@quantumbacon I have tried arm-linux and software compatibilty isn't really a problem there, If only qualcomm worked on linux support instead of wasting time on windows.
@@quantumbaconEvery Windows app already runs fine on ARM. Even when a native version isn't available, emulation works fine in 99% of cases.
@@quantumbaconis Samsung exynos a contender? Or google tendor? I think windows on ARM Will stay on snapdragon for many many years to come.
@@Cooe.
plus Anything that had hardware acceleration running on software emulation (not even transpiled) on a CPU.. that's a lost cause
Eg codecs for video, any maths compute libraries for scientific work.
Its about the money. The question is how many billions is QUALCOMM going to have to spend to fix it.
They already moved to V9
They probably want to nuke Qualcom And buy it later.
It's fair, QUALCOMM sue Interl over generic patents. It's good they have to pay this time what is fair. Also they buy Nuvia to get a hold on Apple designs and procedures, and they succedd, I am ok with them having to pay ARM.
It's* about
Qualcomm just wants to blame ARM of being monopolistic and Qualcomthought they could checkmate ARM(which was giving favorable treatment to a young fledgling startup in an anti-competitive market). so Qualcomm goes and does the anti-competitive monopolistic move right out of Facebook's playbook (to buy Instagram), by buying up Nuvia.
nonetheless acquiring and dissolving the entity known as Nuvia such that it effectively seizes to exist, and now is just Qualcomm (because Qualcomm is not Nuvia and if we made a contract with Qualcomm we wouldnt refer to them as Nuvia lol just imagine that level of trolling if we did), means that any agreements need to be redefined in terms of the ARM/Qualcomm relationship. The ARM/Nuvia relationship no longer exists after the startup is dissolved and Qualcomm is not liable to maintain any relationship with a startup entity that does not exist. but Qualcomm exists after it absorbed Nuvia. it only makes sense that ARM would want to define their agreements with Qualcomm as though it was negotiating with the powerful entity that is Qualcomm and is not a mere startup like Nuvia.
ARM's case is not merely drama because on their side they are helping foster a competitive chip space. No different to how Microsoft helped foster the rise of computers inevery home through back when IBM dominated the compute machine space
I don't think any injunction would go Arm's way. The two parties were already involved in legal proceedings. When deciding on whether to enforce an injunction, the court usually asks themselves which course of action will be hardest to remedy once the legal case is over. It would be nearly impossible to remedy the decision to destroy Qualcomm's business, should they happen to win. Meanwhile, if Arm happen to win, then the remedy is simple, and Qualcomm would be ordered to pay some additional royalties on the chips they are currently selling.
On top of this, the court might not look kindly on the fact that one party is trying to damage the other party outside of the current legal proceedings.
This seems like a counterproductive move to me. This makes working with arm look risky, and I don't see any upside for them.
One thing I'm interested in is the legal implications. These are massive patent / copyright disputes in public. Qualcomm might go after the IP itself. Since I have a feeling both of those are on shaky ground. There are also legal requirements for licensing some of these things, and that's going to be another big part of this fight.
The other interesting aspect is regulation. ARM has had the NVIDIA acquisition stopped before, and ARM chips currently have a monopoly on the smartphone market. Even if politicians don't do anything, the EU could look at this as a monopoly supplier directly competing with it's customers and just cutting those customers off. Which was the concern about NVIDIA in the first place. Regulators could break the ARM architecture licensing part into a different company.
Interesting note that -- hadn't thought about that aspect. That might actually be for the best, a regulators-induced break-up of the company, that is.
It's a shame this is happening, I wonder how bad the negotiations have had to be for this to happen :)
The Irrational Analysis writeup is actually quite interesting. Basically, Qualcomm possesses *two* architectural licenses - one from the pre-Nuvia days for mobile devices and one from the Nuvia acquisition. It sounds like Qualcomm may be successful in the argument that Oryon v2 is a clean sheet design and as such covered under Qualcomm’s original license and therefore even if Qualcomm loses the lawsuit, it might only impact the Snapdragon X SoC which would be far less costly and disruptive to Qualcomm. The news today is that Arm appears to have cancelled Qualcomm’s original architectural license and on that license Qualcomm seems to be in a stronger legal position than the Nuvia one.
No audio lag this time.
I don’t think I’ve heard a single word from Rene Haas that hasn’t been snake oil. I’d be shocked if he was willing to talk publicly with someone technically competent and answer real questions.
Duh. That's true of all CEO. I never believed for a second Bill Gates could even program "Hello World", but he still advocates for learning to code 😂
So, Arm basically just pulled a pin on a grenade and shoved that grenade down their pants.
Brilliant move. Absolutely brilliant.
well it's 90% owned by Softbank a very competent investment bank behind such genius strategies such as WireCard and WeWork so I'm sure they understand the market really well yeah.... /s
No, Qualcomm did. They should have clarified with ARM what they could do with that license before committing billions to new peoducts. If I bought a company I wouldn't just assume the Office license on all their computers is automatically transfered to me. Would you?
@@TheNefastor I mean yeah, they're already paid assets. Why would double taxing be fair?
@@terrycrews1584 just because you paid a license to use Office 2019 doesn't mean you have a license to customize and resell Office 2021. That's why you call your legal department first, and they call ARM's. *Assumption is the mother of all fuckups.*
@@terrycrews1584 Because that's how businesses work. This is really like some TV channels during negotiation of contracts with providers like DISH and Direct TV. Well TECHNICALLY, and they get a new contract with better terms for them, more money, and so on. ARM doesn't want Qualcomm gone. They just want to get more money from them because they can. Greed is the way businesses work. It's THE ONLY business model. They could've quietly brought this up to Qualcomm when they purchased Nuvia, explained their concerns about using previous agreements moving forward, and negotiated in good faith at the time. Qualcomm could have approached them as well, but decided to gamble on these things not being called into question. Both do what is best for their bottom line. In this case, Qualcomm is going to have to pay. Whether or not that's right, ethically, is really not a factor. Courts will base their judgement on legality, which is not always the same as basing them on what is ethical. Here, neither party is really in the right anyway.
Qualcomm flies armies of journalists around the world to (positively) cover their events. They can take a hit to their margins and pay ARM more money.
It will be interesting to see how the industry reacts. Will the other license holders see this as Arm stealing Qualcomm’s revenue, or will the feeling be it is justified? Do we see a mass exodus from arm to risc v or some other open design? Or do they stay put? At a minimum I’d expect Qualcomm to explore other options. Going to be an interesting 5 years.
Given Qualcomm’s history most of them are hoping ARM wins. Broadcom, Qualcomm, Oracle, and Nvidia are the four worst POS to deal with concerning licensing.
@@Knirin Oracle bought out sunmicrosystem which created SPARC so they could back to that if they wanted to or just not discontinue it in the 1st palce
They probably going to cheer on ARM to put some hurt on Qualcomm haha. Some SoC maker have to quit smartphone market because how Qualcomm abuse their modem/baseband licensing. Just a few week ago QC asking Infinix (a brand that gaining popularity in asian market) to pay roayalties to them despite no infinix phone use QC chip.
Game of chicken apparently. Either ARM blinks and restores the license, afraid of every major customer switching to RISC-V or Qualcomm blinks and pays up.
. . . . or they both preemptively poke themselves in both eyes
RISC-V is hardly ready for this kind of prime time stuff. It'll be quite a few years before anything happens realistically.
RISC-V?? How is that even a thing still, let alone a part of this conversation?
@@AHarmlessPyro true. But current state of "let's dabble in RISC-V" can transition to "let's create a department to develop CPUs just in case" , which may spell doom for Arm in 5 years
@@askmedov oh for sure. You can bet that new funding is being diverted in evey single licensee.
Qualcomm's handheld division raked in $5.9B last quarter. At 5.5%, that means they could spend some $1.3B in RISC-V R&D chip design every single year and still break even.
This most likely will go wrong for ARM. I understand what they are trying to do...but ARM trying to overplay this for it's size. For pulling something like this requires broad product range and deep revenue. Now regardless QUALCOMM and ARM do settlement all major ARM customers will rush to find alternatives which essentially will push ARM is bad position. The only scenario I can think for ARM's benefit is they directly wants to be Qualcomm like SOC supplier to lot of smartphone manufacturers.
Licenses have terms. It should be easy for lawyers to determine if those terms have been broken. If so, Qualcomm shouldn't get away with it or everyone's gonna start messing with ARM.
This is a loss for Qualcomm, ARM and android ecosystem while being a win for Apple and RISC-V. In the long run, I can see android transitioning to RISC-V while ARM being acquired by Apple after losing most of its android market share.
Yup... Because these lawsuits are because of apples board seats on arm
Apple cannot acquire ARM just like Nvidia could not aquire ARM. Apple can switch away from ARM at the blink of an eye so this is completely ARM hurting itself and taking Qualcomm down with them.
@@ashishpatel350 that would be very interesting take but brief google search says Apple doesn't have a seat at ARM board
@@ashishpatel350 Apple is so fucking evil. Great products. But every single employee I know who works there and I know a few are ruthless scumbags. NICE PEOPLE to your face!! But horrible shitbags with no moral standards if you get to know them. Of course people who have no moral standards basically never know this about themselves. But you can tell by the fact their standards change with the winds of culture they don't really have any. They'll screw you over at the first chance the culture-winds make it acceptable.
Nvidia ironically being in some ways more hated, has great people as employees! All 12 people I know over at Nvidia are kinda rough in personality they're not "chill" like the Apple people... but they'll BEND OVER BACKWARDS to do the right thing by you. AWESOME AWESOME culture over at Nvidia.
Intel is just a bunch of H1B's who don't really gaf as long as they're paid. They're not nice. They're not mean. They're just overpaid middle-managers subsidized by your tax dollars and they don't really care if something is the right decision or not, just that their reports show THEIR middle-managers they're doing a great job. And if you look at Intel's decision making over the last 10years it starts to make sense in that light.
Want to understand a company? Look at the corporate culture of the average employee. They're a reflection on the collective direction of the whole company.
Android RISC-V is already a thing. The main component needed would be high performance dynamic binary translation from AArch64 for compatibility with the broader ecosystem.
This is the best advertisement for people to invest in Risc V chip development... ARM is now a monopoly in many sectors and should be careful about its acts, because monopolistic companies can get a big huge fine in some regions (EU are you watching?) or can be forced to split... It takes years but that's not a good strategy for the investors. And Qualcomm is not better overall let's face it... And they probably should have paid a new licence for developing a new range of products as you describe. Hope they will settle this quickly because it can only hurt all the industry.
When ARM wants to charge you arm and leg, Qualcomm should officially make the new architecture LEG
Large-scale Extensible General-purpose, hmmm
If Qualcomm can't sell chips, that void will be quickly filled with other chips as there are many to choose from. They may not be as good, sure, but if they are the only ones you can buy, companies like Samsung will just use other chips.
What would be pretty interesting if Qualcomm is able to pivot. Qualcomm says "ok you win" but then goes full steam ahead with RISC-V and makes as good/superior processors. Other companies that see this could also do the same thing. Take for example, Apple. Apple is a company I would not be surprised in the future they pivot to RISC regardless, and maybe this would speed up that process.
One might wonder it Apple is an influence in this. Kneecap the competition
RIsc- v is atleast 10 years away
I remember when Qualcomm introduced their funny licensing fees. ARM probably saw that and said we can do that too.
This would be hilarious if ARM follows through but I can see Microsoft intervening because otherwise their investment will be circling the drain. I do see ARM's point on licensing based on market size.
Unless MSFT replaces QCOM Snapdragon Elite CPU with Nvidia’s new ARM PC CPU next year. & Nvidia PC CPU will support external GPU which QCOM doesn’t support!
@@tringuyen7519 Qualcomm's x-elite does support discrete GPUs it's just no manufacture decided to ship one, and instead used the onboard Adreno.
Qualcomm oughta give ARM the finger and go all in on Risc-v f*** them. I'm sure they'll love actually getting to keep all their profits not having to pay a share of the royalties to Arm anymore. All of us consumers can benefit from cheaper and more efficient chips too
@@tringuyen7519 The samsung s10 tablet switched from a qualcomm processor in the previous models to a mediatek processor. Maybe this dispute had something to do with it.
What leverage has MS on ARM?
Just say no to chips. Electrical resistance is futile. What I want for next X-mass are cubes stacked top to bottom side to side to side with nano scale optical gates in a fully 3D matrix.
So, who makes ARM CPUs? Apple, Samsung and Qualcomm? Elminating the biggest player is a smart move? Am I missing something here?
depends. if that bigger player end up your biggest torn later maybe it is better to get rid of them right now. qualcomm also have their issues. remember when Qualcomm try to acquire NXP before? that effort end up being blocked by regulators because Qualcomm have history of abusing their position when they own certain tech.
Arm cancelling the licence with their biggest customer... Good job I'm sure that'll work out well.
Lol
Qualcomm most likely want to ditch ARM in the future. hence why they bought Nuvia in the first place. but thing is from what i heard Nuvia also one of ARM licensee. ARM are jumping the gun before something similar to Imagination vs Apple happen to them.
Lol, it was true a decade ago.. but recently even MediaTek have bigger market share like Qualcomm.. (just in the past 1 year MediaTek raised 7% while Qualcomm fall back with 5% and they switched in position.. so Qualcomm just the 3rd biggest manufacturer..) btw what happens if Snapdragon dismiss? MediaTek or Apple will raise even more, who are still have ARM license.. that won't mean that the yearly amount of Android phones will fall back from 1billion to "just" 700million, that 300million phone simply will use another chip from other brand..
@@TamasKiss-yk4styeah exynos is also coming once samsung gets its 3nm foundary issues solved so no crapdragon
I wonder how much modification would be required to turn Oryon 2 into a RISC-V core? There would probably be front-end redesign necessary, and you'd need new microcode for the back end, and the result might not be horribly well optimized, so it's not something Qualcomm would likely spend money on developing in normal circumstances, but it might be a viable emergency project.
even if they do move to risc-v, how about the software support? it's not like you can just move from one architecture to another and expects everything to work like before.
@@iamwisdomsky It's not a magic bullet, it would still be painful for them, but Google is already looking at a RISC-V port for Android, and ARM continuing to be maximally aggressive will probably accelerate those plans, so at least one major bit of software that a lot of their chips end up running would already be headed in that direction.
Idk if this make sense but i have x86 android and it's running fine. I think android also gonna run fine on Risc-V.
it could be that they are just cancelling to force qualcomm into signing a new, custom, license that charges qualcomm more per processor for v8 arm(like they have in oryon)
but at the end of the day this is just going to push a LOT of companies to start building stuff on risc-v
And what license Qualcomm had for its enterprise Centriq cpu's back in the days? (I would say it was a v8 - similar as Nuvia had for v9)
From what I understood this cancelation is only for Qualcomm's Orion CPU designs specifically the design Qualcomm received from Nuvia's acquisition. Qualcomm can go back to their own previous Kryo core designs.
Yeah and they can also use stock arm cores like they did in 8plus gen1 and 8gen2 8gen 3
couple of weeks ago, the wallstreetbros were talking about qualcomm acquiring intel. Now their core existence is in danger. That's what they don't get. Intel isn't just about their CPUs, its their Fabs and license which make them what they are truly.
It reminds me how Qualcomm stops other people doing 5G 😂
Not the same ...
@@ashishpatel350 No that one is actually way worse, at least there are alternatives to ARM, 5G is pretty much mandatory and Qcomm gets to extort large amounts of money from mobile handset vendors.
not the same thing.
Not even close to the same thing
Qualcomm doesn't stop anyone
Had it how was huawei and mediatek able to
Yeah, Qualcomm is pretty big, but they also have NXP, Apple, Broadcom, Microchip, Ti, Mediatek, and a whole bunch of others that I can't think of off the top of my head. I am sure they will be fine even if they cannot come to resolution.
The argument isn't that this revenue is going to kill arm. The argument is that other customers will see that arm is willing to do this, and leave.
Why is it mentioned has double royalty hit?. They just moved from V9 to V8 but my understanding is ALA royalty is more than TLA royalty, please correct me if an wrong.
As RISC-V grows, ARM's main value will be in their pre-designed cores. Though this could easily change with any company allowed to design and license Risc-V cores. I see most RISC-V companies keeping designs in house the way Intel and AMD do with their respective x86 cores(and nVidia with GPUs), because the licensing of RISC-V cores could quickly become a race to minimum margin as anyone can create and offer a RISC-V blueprint.
Is there any updates on the issue?
ARM is kind of wary of the current RISC-V development. Since its main product is licensing cores, I think this bold move is done to quickly squeeze out as much cash as possible from Qualcomm. ARM knows that Qualcomm cannot just pour down the R&D spent on developing their new chips and their acquisition of Nuvia, so they are aiming for an 'easy cash grab' as Qualcomm's business model heavily depends on ARM. Honestly, if this works out for ARM, then it would boost their earnings a lot but they essentially lost all trust any partner had towards them. This really highlights one of the main reasons technological development is currently slowing down because we really care more about financial gains instead of pushing technological advancement forward.
Seems like a case of biting the hand that feeds you. Not usually a good move.
But who's the biting party in this case? Qualcomm decided to ship products that ARM argues were never properly licensed.
@@proesterchen Qualcomm already had a license, and they bought a company that also had bought another license, as Qualcomm sees it they already payed twice. Arm is for sure the one bitting here.
"not technically for this application" .... bro they payed twice, be flexible else it will bite you in the ass later.
@@cj09beira Just because you have a license doesn't mean you are properly licensed. And I'm virtually certain Qualcomm are among the group of companies rather familiar with the distinction.
Allow me introduce you to my new best friend, Mr RISC-V.
"Ultra pure" ... RiscV silicon we hope
Confirmed, my Snapdragon Elite Surface laptop is now a rare item only to go up in value.
Do we know what nvidia are doing with their desktop cpu slated for late next year? Is it going to be arm or risc5?
Does this prevent Qualcomm from releasing new SoCs (in 60 days) or does it affect existing designs as well?
It means qulcom can only use stock arm cores so no i Elite
@@lggr2261 Does it affect existing designs? Or just the new ones going forward?
Any new news on the lawsuits?
One of the big winners out of this may actually be Intel. This is likely to slow down the progress towards ARM taking over desktop and laptop devices!
Huh? Since when are we just assuming that ARM is going to replace x86 in desktop/laptop? I've been hearing this most of my life, yet ARM laptops are still... flawed, at best. And now overpriced. ARM has basically went from being "Chromebook" to "Chromebook: Windows Edition", except with a 'premium price'.
@@RyTrapp0 Qualcomm's pricing thinking they had the prestige of Apple is laughable. Literally _no one_ brags about having a Qualcomm device. AMD has their fair share of frothing at the mouth fanboys, especially now that they actually _do_ have class leading products, but nothing close to Apple's absolute cult members.
Apple is an anomaly. They have extremely mediocre products at stupidly expensive prices, while being the most anti-consumer corporation on the planet. The only thing they excel at is making really good wrappers that fool the stupid. Apple's own products would never sell to the Apple cultists if it didn't carry the Apple logo. For Qualcomm to think their name pulls that level of weight is laughably out of touch with reality and destroyed their first attempt at entering the PC space.
Qualcomm needs to tiptoe in with much more humility and a lot less bravado because PC users are the ones that _aren't_ stupid enough to be Apple cultists. To stroll in with hardware inferior to Apple, infinitely more bugs and incompatibilities, and to ask Apple pricing from a community that already shuns Apple to begin with shows an alarming lack of self awareness.
@@RyTrapp0 Well, intel has been having some major problems lately, and is likely going to continue to have trouble in the near term at least, as they have insufficient funds to do enough R & D. I have even seen people talking of Qualcomm taking over Intel. This may even be a possibility, given the current difficulties that Qualcomm is having as well.
@11:58 I believe that if Qualcomm's royalty rate goes down from 4-5.5% to 2-2.5%, that's not a 2% drop: it's a 50%+ drop. Corporate wars have been fought for much, much less, and if you told me you were going to halve my profits, I'd probably go to the (metaphorical) mattresses myself.
Time for RISC-V
So question Ian, let us the license is cancelled and there is nothing Qualcomm can do about it. What happens to smartphones which are on sale/in stores and using SoCs which were covered under said license? Are they pulled off the shelf? I am aware that new or existing devices which use this license would not be able to be imported, but is this globally or only in certain major markets?
Only 8 ELITE AND X ELITE WILL BE CANCELLED AS NUVIA IE ORYON CAN ONLY BE USED FOR SEVER CHIPS NOT MOBILE CHIPS SO QULCOM COULD STILL USED STOCK ARM CORES THAT THEY WERW USING SINCE 888 AND 9400 BEAT 8 ELITE IN CPU IT HAS 50% MORE IMPROVMENT USING STOCK CORES BUT BUT SNAPGRAGON GOT GULITY LAWSUIT WAS FILED WHEN IT BOUGHT NUVIA AND XELITE CAME IN ITS IN DECEMBER THIS YEAR EXCAT 53 DAYS PLUS ARM CANCELATION MEANS 60 DAYS IT SIMPLY MEANS THIS YEAR IT WILL BE MEDIATEK 9400 AND EXYNOS 2500 ONCE SAMSUNG GETS ITS YELID ISSUES FIXED IF ARM WINS SO BASICALLY QULCOM IS SCREWED
What is the outcome of this mess for end user!! Are we not getting best SoC for android??
8 ELITE IS DEAD 9400 IS BETTER QULCOM IS JUST HYPED UP SHIT
Does ARM really have to worry about RISC 5 given the strong arm negotiating for Qualcomm licensing tech. Qualcomm does not have much goodwill in industry.
How much of what's good in the Nuvia design is ARM specific and how much could they reuse when making a good RISC-V processor?
I wouldn't be surprised if Qualcomm had a plan B using RISC-V for quite a while.
How long would it take for Qualcomm to migrate to RISC-V? Is it even plausible? Should at least be a long term goal.
It will take years.
Google releases Android RISC-V support last year. ARM might just speeding up this migrate process.
Imagine being an arm customer and seeing how petty they are while also increasing costs and competing with you with their own turnkey designs. No love for QUALCOMM they have had shitty business practices in the past.
Sucks to be a company that uses QUALCOMM chips, have nothing to do with it and getting shit on. oh the chips you were using are no longer available looks like you will have to redesign your hardware and software.
Qualcomm is driven by employees and not filthy rich ceo's with minting money only as the goal. please stop hating Qualcomm. The CEO during whose tenure issues have happened is long gone more than 10 years ago. Now it's just the employees driving the company. Qualcomm is trying to reduce power usage if you want fight with nvidia CEO who is ambitious on power usage if his plans succeed half the world will have no power
I wonder how many billions flowed from a certain shiny new x86 foundation to arm....
Qualcomm gets a taste of its own medicine.
How much would Qualcomm have to change their architecture such that it isn't still considered arm? Could they so that and then put a translation layer on top of it?
Simple all new
So MS took this into account when plugging the Qualcomm Ex Elite?
do they still or did ever have the v9 license?
its a bold move by arm. what exactly do they think is going to happen if they ban what is essentially their biggest customer? cant collect royalties if you dont let people make chips.
My guess, they believe they can make all Qualcomm customers pivot to using those ARM standard cores making royalties a moot point. If their gamble pays off, which is likely because there isn't a strong alternative, they'll directly get most of the revenue and profit that was going to Qualcomm before.
What are your thoughts on the new gpu slices?do you think this is going to be implemented into next gen qaulcomm laptops
I would honestly be surprised if Qualcomm didn't at least start some internal RISC-V research project as soon as the lawsuit was filed.
ARM is not stupid enough to cut off revenue received from its biggest customer Qualcomm. It is just trying to force a settlement before the court case between the two which is scheduled to begin in the federal court in Delaware in December.
Qualcomm's competitive advantage is not Arm it is Radio modems, So if they pivots to Risk-5 they could blow a blow up arms monopoly on the smartphone segment.
Arm is Arm's biggest enemy and the biggest hurdle to ever being the dominant PC platform for the world. It's honestly surprising they've been so dominant in smartphones as it is when they've become more and more toxic to do business with by the year. I assumed it was the weight of Apple that kept Arm honest but I thought the same of Qualcomm as well. This is exactly the kick in the pants RISC-V needs to accelerate it's maturation.
Someone should let them know their name is Arm, and not StrongArm.
"I won't show the article because it's behind a paywall, i just read it out loud for you" huehuehuehue!
Shoutouts to the notification sound at 12:51.
Qualcomm could be the RISC-V mvp and make an OPEN ecosystem so when people would go for any risc-v laptop or sbc or desktop/workstation, they would go for a qualcomm one. A man can dream...
This is a great incentive for licensees to start dumping billions into improving RISC-V.
I think the best thing Qualcomm can do right now is to delay, litigate, buy time...while spending a few billion to try to get something like RISC V up to speed as quickly as possible. That's a hard bullet to bite, but once they do so, they'll be free from their chains.
wonder if any companies are going to make giant offers for tenstorrent or ask them for licensing deals?
I wouldn't be surprised if Qualcomm begrudgingly agrees to new licensing/royalty terms, taking a hit to their margins for a couple of years - whether that be meeting ARM's terms entirely, or somewhere in the middle.
Ultimately this seems like a short-term win for ARM, but a longer term loss - no doubt Qualcomm and other ARM licensees will start pouring *significantly* more R&D capital into alternative architectures (RISC-V) until it's at a sufficiently strong/competitive place... at which point, ARM could be left with very few customers, or have to significantly reduce their licensing royalties.
Great and very informative video. Maybe explains Samsung's surprising pivot to Diemnsity in the latest Galaxy Tablets?
1:48 that's the reason I value x86. Like it or not basically all cpus are virtually the same thing
I refuse to pronounce such odd spellings as the company requests. It's Or-yon preferably with a nice thick Scots accent.
I don't think Qualcomm will lose this. I think Arm jumped in too early. However, this will not be a win for either side. Arm is not exactly dead, but it is now closer to death than ever at this point.
Does that mean nobody else can develop a custom core with arm isa except apple or arm only has problems with Qualcomm's custom core due to nuvia license agreements.
Its due to nuvia agreements nuvia custom cores can only be used for sever chips not mobile or laptop lawsuit was filed at time of X elite its hearing is in december 53 days later from now
so is this years snapdragon chip not coming out?
The problem is, Qualcomm just show how useless arm core design is..... The best situation for ARM is Qualcomm pays, anything other than that, would be a huge loss for ARM.
Why does this sound like open source wordpress vs wpengine battle. Is this the new cool thing to do?
To people here. What would it cost Qualcomm to make their own Core? Does availability of AI bring the number down?
Can they sell 8 elite now?
Qcom should team up with AMD or Intel to push riscv
team up with intel? haha a few years ago Qualcomm already had issues with intel. there is no way intel want to help qualcomm.
@@arenzricodexd4409 Intel is desperate.
Qcoms issue with Intel was that apple stole ip from qcom modems and gave it to Intel to build them a modem.
Arm are clearly trying to make more money out of their business model. They need to be careful as £50 per hour is only greater than £20 per hour if hours are greater than zero. If I were other clients I would be looking to eliminate a potential single-point-of-failure (captive market) risk ASAP 🤨🧐🤨
should the title say ARMv8?
Qualcomm put itself on a plate with all the trimmings with a little wooden stick saying "well done". Problem with Qualcomm is there are a lot of players with fork and knife in their hands eager to devour this well done piece of steak. People are talking about new development or something else. The market has no patience and increasingly demanding something new something better on a ever faster cycle. I can think of several, not even counting private equities who are able and willing to devour Qualcomm given half a chance.
All this makes RISK 5 so much more appealing.
Rather strange to make such feud if you are partners.
Seems ARM is trying to choose winners and losers. They are negociating royalties, there is no need to block customers from a product. Judges should throw out the license refusal and wait for the royalty determination.
Have Broadcom myopic bean-counters taken the tiller at Arm?
Yes, please, let's get RISC-V into full scale production.
Qualcomm did refund the developer for windows on arm...
So for Windows on ARM that's a bleak outlook.
Otherwise... Qualcomm can also develop RISC-V chips. Should not matter to them or does it? It would be great if we would ger powerful RISC-V cores.
Regardless of who wins, both are loosing.
ARM holding companies accountable even though it's their biggest revenue stream! Buisnesses are ruthless, we should not antropomorphise companies!
but this is not the good thing for us consumers
Sadly the teams that are dealing with the legal stuff probably have their own timing and who knows where their true allegiance lies? The snapdragon 8 elite was supposed to be the device that really starts to introduce ARM to a larger market, now they have a problem.