How God Transforms Suffering - Fr. Dave Pivonka at the Napa Institute 2022 Summer Conference
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
- Best-selling author Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and Franciscan University of Steubenville President Father Dave Pivonka, TOR, discuss the transformative power of suffering during a conversation attended by 1,500 students, faculty, staff, and guests at Franciscan University on April 4, 2022. A huge part of the challenge of life, they say, is learning how to bear the suffering at the crux of life without becoming embittered. By embracing the Cross as Jesus and the Blessed Mother did, we are transformed and so are those around us.
#Catholic #Suffering #Happiness #Sacred Scripture #Clergy
May we pray for Jordans conversion! Have a blessed day brothers and sisters!
Are you talking about this Jordan or the country Jordan?
We don’t really know if Jordan converted already. By the way he expresses fundamental tenets of Catholicism, it certainly seems possible. It could be a matter of privacy for him.
@@delmiller7572 I certainly hope so. He seems to have explicity mentioned that he's not quite there yet. But God willing it looks like he is on his way! 😊
There is a correlation with education and skepticism so it will be difficult. The more you learn the less you believe in things without concrete evidence.
@@michaelshell331 Very true. This is where faith lies, my friend. If he continues to only look for the empirical, he will never come to know God in anything other than a practical sense.
My father lived with ALS for 3 years. His voice only left him near the end. Before he died, he begged me to go to church. I hadn't gone in a while. He spoke to me about it with urgency. He knew something more than I knew.
Did you ever ask him how many babies God murdered when he flooded the earth?
I hope you found a real relationship with Jesus . Whatever denomination you choose Jesus wants your ❤
@@Oilofmercy nobody has a relationship with some guy who died thousands of years ago. Stop being silly.
@@Oilofmercy Yes, I had at the time but had not gone to church.
@@watchmeplayenergy281 ah 💜 may you find the truth. I'm praying you feel the love of God this Christmas 🎄 🙏
My good and gentle Jesus, help me to always cling to your cross and suffer bravely for love of you. 🕊
Amén 🙏
Zuzus Petals, 😁😁
I like your choice of name
@@DavidJones-qx5yf Thank you. Merry Christmas. 🎄
ua-cam.com/video/ssmRAgyWNpE/v-deo.html
Not the way you think.
How many babies did God murder when he flooded the earth?
"The Lord gives, the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord" - Job, sufferer extraordinaire
Why does HE take anything away? What’s the purpose? To torture us helpless mortals? He has His reasons is not an explanation
@@lv4077 To make us strong. No pain, no gain
@@josephtravers777 I’ve never seen anyone “strengthened” by metastatic cancer,or some debilitating neurological disease.My argument isn’t for atheism,if you don’t believe in God you haven’t studied his creation.My argument is with what I believe to be a fabricated view that God micromanages our lives and we can appease him with church attendance and solicitations for our benefit,not to mention church offerings and proselytizing.This is not to say churches don’t serve a very useful social benefit,to the contrary,they can be very beneficial if taken in moderation.
@@ululate6008 Us mere mortals think we know best, not
@@josephtravers777 💯💯
That is an awesome insight❣️
Somehow people will accept that maxim when it's about exercising and dieting or going to school but when it comes to GOD we react with anger and rage at the "injustice" of it all!
TY for giving me something to add to my toolkit of Faith "helpers!"✝️✝️✝️💖💖💖
Peterson looks like he feels at home. And relaxed.
Bitterness is SO difficult to overcome cuz it gives you a false sense of security. As long as that shell over your heart is there you won’t get hurt again.
That's really profound - thank you for sharing your thought, it was a lovely shift for me...I pray you'll continue to share your opinions in the future, and that you and yours are blessed this, and every, season.
That’s a Whyte man’s Bible
That's tru, but it destroys you day by day a little more and more...
I refer to the healing of the man born blind. Christ is asked, "Who sinned, his mother or father, that this happened to him." Christ responds with, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him."
It is so that the work of God would be displayed in his life.
Sin is the cause. It's a pattern with Christ as the cure. You missed that right there, that sin blinds us to its effects.
Let us pray for this man to come to know Jesus and the one true Church he founded!
He's probably undergoing RCIA as we speak. Lol there's no way to bypass the catholic faith if you can read and think.
What is the "one true church"?
I think that is quite ignorant,
arrogant even,
amongst us Christians to state!
I am Catholic myself. Yet I don't push this too hard.
Chronic suffering, at least for a man, is very humbling. Jesus is humble. Chronic suffering can bring us closer to understanding our humble savior.
That becomes strengthening.
Then we can more often go to Him in prayer. And our prayers can take on more life in them. And our closeness to the Father and the Holy Spirit will grow. We find that we “have their ear,” so to speak. Then we can be stronger in our pain and fear it less. Then we can begin to “offer it up” for others.
Then our suffering begins to have real purpose. Then it no longer seems useless. That’s when we begin to understand the biblical instructions to “count it all joy,” as in the gospel of James. But it’s still a painful affliction, and it is normal to ask for healing. But then if we aren’t healed, and since our trust in God is now strong, we know He is using it for good. And we can be at peace about it.
Thank you!! Your words are meaningful. 🙏
Please speak only for yourself. You only know about your own suffering. You do not know about anyone else’s. I appreciate your good effort here and what you are saying, but you continually say “we “… It is not we, it should be “I “.
@@cynthiao.543 We all suffer or will suffer …there’s different types of suffering…but either way it’s suffering
What about if someone we love is suffering? My little brother has terminal cancer, and he is not a believer. How can that have any meaning? I can’t make HIS suffering meaningful, but I do suffer because his pain hurts me. How can one attain peace when I am anxious about both his life and his salvation?
@@cynthiao.543 I see your perspective. I was hoping to offer hope to others by sharing my experience, and I felt the inclusive “we” would be more helpful.
How do we deal with suffering? After grieving for the loss of my first born lovely , 35 year old son, ( killed in a head on crash by a drunk driver at 9:30 in the morning, I said to God.. what am I supposed to learn from this? Eventually I came to understand that because of the Lord's death and Resurrection, I could rely on his promise that some day I will see my son again. You might say I gave my grief to my Lord, and he sustains me with that supernatural virtue of hope. He is my example, having encountered grief over lost loved ones, thinking even of the contemporary John, the Baptist, and probably others. He carried on loving humanity, proclaiming the kingdom of God, healing, teaching, restoring fallen men and women. I thank God that at the time of our tragedy, I knew who to turn to. As the Scripture says, we grieve, but not as those who have no hope. I pray for those who do not believe, etc.....
❤
I'm always amazed about how Dr. Peterson's ability to put on the ground very complex topics.
I hope the thousands that follow Jordan will soon follow Jesus. Come Lord with your healing 🙏 ❤
What I found astonishing when I first started to study the Bible was the fact that we weren’t ever supposed to suffer or even die but once God, through Jesus, brings an end to Satan’s rule over this earth mankind will then return to the initial state that we were created in …. Pure Love 🥰
Since the expulsion from Eden we’ve been very much in the grip of something malevolent …. It’s no wonder the planet and it’s inhabitants are in such a terrible state 😬😢
Revelation 21:4
AMP
… and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be death; there will no longer be sorrow and anguish, or crying, or pain; for the former order of things has passed away.”
The most difficult part of the terribleness is that we have to maintain a higher level and forgive. When we know that God is Love, we don’t need to question why? The higher virtues: Faith Hope and Love!
Beautiful comment
Very true.
And when we forgive we become free of another type of suffering.
Would love to know what you mean by a higher level?
Blessings
I had experienced consolations during times of suffering that gave peace. My 5 yr old son had a vision of purgatory and JESUS pulling my brother up to Heaven.. I believe him!
😍😍😍
😭😭😭💖💖💖🙏🙏🙏
The ultimate meaning and purpose of our earthly lives is to reconcile with God. All the suffering in my life has lead me to reconciliation. To know the feeling of human heartbreak does not even come close to understanding God's heartbreak over his children turning our backs on him. God lifted my bitterness when I turned my face towards Him, the Sun/Son and now my personal suffering is eclipsed by remembering how many years I was away from home, how much harder I made it for myself. Glory to God for welcoming us home through Jesus.
Incredible dialogue. The path to less suffering is going thru your suffering and finding your faith thru the journey. As someone who suffers with kidney and liver disease I find that allowing God to transform me with it is the only way.
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, to show that the transcendent power belongs to God and not to us. We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed, perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; Always carrying about in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus might be made manifest in our bodies. For while we are always being given up to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
-2 Corinthians 4:7-11
I hope to live long enough to witness JP’s, full initiation into the Catholic Church!
In order to transform your suffering to merit for souls or Yourself,you have to be in a state of grace
and who can claim that?
Those who keep the specific commandments of God. No one can have complete certitude, but there are perceivable signs in one’s life, such as peace of soul, that can provide a certain degree of assurance.
@@billybobthornton8122 that's not how'by the grace of God' works. Someone could do all that and never be blessed by God's grace, whereas a total sinner could be
You nailed it!!
@@helvete_ingres4717 Nothing I said contradicts what you imply, that is, one could keep all of God's commandments, but without charity, it has no overall spiritual benefit (see 1 Corinthians 13). However, it still doesn't negate the absolute fact that Christ gave us certain guidelines to which we *must* adhere to be in His good graces, or as we Catholics say, to be "in the state of grace". For, Christ says in John 14:15, "If you love me, keep my commandments." Plain and simple. Remember, we on earth are all sinners, so all of us need actual grace from God to adhere to His commandments. If you reject those graces to "work out your salvation in fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12) by adhering to God's commandments (John 14:15) with charity (1 Corinthians 13), then you are not in the state of grace. How can you love God without adhering to all of those scripture passages simultaneously? Christ says you can't.
A lot of things have been broken in my life. As I keep surrendering to it, I find the hole that it carved in my soul, inevitably gets filled with God and with love. I’m not sure that it can all be rational. When you fall, you find yourself unexpectedly caught by Grace.
I don’t think you do. I think you find yourself face-planted on the ground
Beautifully said.
The best way to describe it👏
Didn’t mean to sound aggressive. Just that I don’t seem to progress in the school of god or spirituality
How did you surrend to them?
13:30 necessary suffering and unnecessary suffering. Discriminating which is which is the challenge and tying ourselves up in knots trying to.
Jordan Peterson is distinctly wiser than he once was
"Have GOD show me my cross"........."When you see people bear their suffering NOBLY, there's nothing in that but good!" - Transormative....Inspired.........True! Thank you!!
This is the difference between our separated brothers & sisters, (Protestants,nondenominational Churches) We Catholics see God’s virtue in redemptive sufferings. They believe that your need more faith because of your suffering, we embrace it, they reject it. 🙏✝️❤️
I’m not sure you can speak for all Protestant denominations, but I respect the camaraderie here.
This conversation has deepened my appreciation of my Catholic brothers and sisters. I think the balance of embracing suffering and seeking healing is worth pursuing. As a Protestant, I gravitate mee toward the side of suffering well. It explains my experiences walking with those who are not healed this side of heaven
it is so good to see the grappling with the questions around suffering, God bless us each and everyone,,,,,,
How many babies did God murder when he flooded the earth? Have you ever wondered about that?
Exactly! Suffering can heal the sufferer's soul.
The mystery of suffering, exemplified by Brendan Kelley born with downs, became sick with leukemia at four. As told by Austin Ruse. Tears on every page not only in sadness but joy for his love of the Eucharist and Jesus. A must read. 2000 people came to his funeral all touched by him.
One does not get strong by lifting light weights. In my most dreaded experiences, i.e. the individual deaths of my parents, the Lord was ever present. Had he not given such evidence of his presence, I would have thought, "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" But he didn't do that. Somehow, he gets us through.
.... currently, the Holy Spirit has laid upon my heart the topic "suffering". Througout the discovery process, personally mindful of my opposition to the word "happy" .... Satan has certainly played the word to his advantage to the masses. Oh well, a topic for another day.
Over decades of conversations...the question "If there is a God, why does God allow such vile devastating suffering amongst the innocent and otherwise".
Jordan Peterson offered insight into the individual suffering which gives way to the "Presence of Jesus" within. This concept has given depth to the above question. Thank you, relevant video!
Very interesting conversation! Would love to see more.
As the rain of blessings and trials fall on the just and the unjust so is our lives. The Christian has to embrace suffering when it comes;as the very symbol of our faith rests on the cross.Christ shows us the way that through the suffering and shame that He endured comes Glory. A power and strength in our faith to withstand life’s trails;that cannot be attained any other way,a purified life and a relationship that’s built on humility with Jesus as Lord; that’s worthy for eternity.
Psalm 66:10-12
For You have tried us, O God;
You have refined us as silver is refined.
You brought us into the net;
You laid an oppressive burden upon our loins.
You made men ride over our heads;
We went through fire and through water,
Yet You brought us out into a place of abundance.
Hope, hope is realizing the great person you were always meant to be has been lost 🕊️
I really enjoy hearing Jordan Peterson think out loud.
Oh, that was good!
Thank you.
When we find God in the midst of the suffering it is easy to find him anywhere...
Establish what's good in the midst of what isn't
If I can't find God in me then I am not going to find it in others....
Perfection is a horizon that always recedes...
The pathway through less suffering is through suffering...
For me personally, it's generational depression. I was just consoling my mom today cause it's on my dad's side of the family yet 3 of her 4 children are psychiatric patients(including myself).
This has lead me back to the faith so eventually I set aside the shame. I've abandoned my intellect to the teachings of the church. It's been 6 years now and in the midst of suffering, the sorrowful rosary mysteries come to mind. My lifelong sorrows have been genuinely transformed. Glory to God.
I intend on being a catechist to younger children because the identity crisis is one of the things that leads to rather avoidable hopelessness.
Thank you for your words. They were very encouraging and transforming. Awesome conversation about suffering! Thanks
God Bless!
Protect Jordan Peterson at all costs
Such an amazing talk!
This is very powerful. Will more be shared?
Thank you Father Dave
Praise to God. These my fav 2 people right now.
Jordan Peterson is each of us, deep down we doubt and we ask these questions of suffering. God loves him as he loves each of us, deeply, and allows each of us to come to terms with our own suffering. Jordan Peterson is not afraid to show himself as he truly is, as Jesus was not afraid to hang on the cross in total nakedness and humility. Jesus said My God, My God why have you forsaken me….
Merry Christmas and ✝️ God bless you all. Love from Australia 🇦🇺
God bless FR. Dave
7:41 it is going to be ok. My experience was that of my soul being in that darkness of that night that can consume us and knowing that I am a child of God and it would be ok because of His atonement.
I think I picked on Jordan a little bit in another post. He has an amazing intellect, but all the words in the world cannot explain God. People turn to God in times of trouble as it is a deep psychological idea designed to protect us from harm, kind of like a third alternative to the fight/flight response. Faith in God turns on our ability to endure, with the historical knowledge that suffering does not always last. But in terminal cases, belief in God can make us face our suffering with dignity and give us the strength to live as long as possible and fulfil our duties on this planet.
The problem with highly intelligent people is that they don’t realize what others are going through, it is easy to solve tough problems with beautiful sophisticated language.
Or maybe that "beautiful sophisticated language" come out through a difficult situation or difficult memory. And we dont know
What a profoundly beautiful talk
The Priest Speaks to Peterson, Peterson turns and gives a speech to the Crowd.
First is having a personal Conversation,asking and giving direct answers while Peterson is sharing his theory impersonally with everyone almost Grand standing to avoid answering the specific Questions. This is what people do when asked a question that makes them feel Vulnerable.
Beautiful, thank you both.
We can be overcomers with God's strength . It is how we overcome the suffering or life's challenges , that makes us who we are... "God is our strength and fortress" It is Hard to be humble and ask for help. Human's have alot of pride But as it says "pride goeth before a fall. ... How many lives did Jesus touch on his Journey... We can touch many lives too with God's help and guidance....
Beautiful, every word.
The closer you get, to The Lord God…
The MORE PAIN you will have and the "harder" it is to "see" him the Darker .. the world falls away and no man SEES GOD.. Think of the darkness and "terror" (Moses and the Israelites went through) on Gods Mountain.
I love you 💛FATHER💕
God bless and keep us all thank you for the knowledge
"Divorce is also a God's gift" - needed to go through this to be able to understand the truth behind it. This conversation touches brilliantly that topic. Thanks for this !
Excellent discussion on both sides. Thank you!
Oh my goodness that was awesome
To our wounds....ONLY God's wounds can speak
Amen. 🙏
This linked to the theory of relevance realization being a possible way of solution is quite enlightening
Psalm 1 ~ Blessed is the man who walks not in the council of the wicked. ~ Go read the rest... Christ is the man... be the man!
When we ERR as Co-creators in life THE suffering burns off the errors. Cruel? Crude? Yes. But look.at how we (humans ego) will fight The Structure of a MOSTLY freely given (Existence) Life. Always remember that this is only our self-created one reality. There are Heavenly ones --- bear your cross & move on... TO them.
I like trousers.
I wish I watched this video back In april :(
Through my own suffering, I fell more in love with Jesus Christ 🙏❤️🩹❤️ Every single day
Saint Theresa sed to Jesus: I understand way you do not have a lot of friends! it is a fine humor but also a deep truth!
min. 8.10 is gold
I believe all children should be taught to not care, that life is suffering and unfair, and that sooner or later they will lose everything that is dear to them, and bitterness and nihilism is the antidote to their existential pain.
There would be no point in accepting one’s cross, being falsely accused and tortured to death, unless Jesus forgives one’s mortal sins which justly condemn one to eternal perdition.
🙏❤️
Matthew 23:9
❣️
Where is full talk?
ua-cam.com/video/1xRtZybpyig/v-deo.html
Is there another clip that is longer of hosting Mr Peterson?
From the book “God’s Bullies,” by Perry Deanne Young comes the following
That the religious were so concerned about other people’s drinking habits and sex lives said much more about them and their own minds than it did about those they regarded as sinners.
In the name of Jesus and God, they had perpetrated all kinds of little cruelties on others and had meanwhile fooled themselves into thinking they could do no wrong because they were always carrying out God’s will.
You realize, then, that people see God through mirrors-and the reflection is often that fearsome, intolerant beast inside all of us.
JP talks like a man on a journey, trying to understand the world. It’s difficult at times to actually listen to him because his answer is always ends with “idk.” There’s nothing backing his “do good & prosper” when it’s followed up with WHY. This is why it’s important to hear from older religious people, particularly with the WHY part. If the religious is book smart & applies himself… it’s like gold.
Even a regular working man off the street with no formal education, if he’s religious he has more wisdom (& experience!) than any armchair intellectual.
❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️🙏🙏🙏🙏
Dr. Jordon, you ask how does one navigate without becoming bitter. The answer is what ancient Christians called the "rudder". The Psalms my friend. CHRISTIANS ARE MEANT TO PRAY THE PSALMS.
Anyone have the link to full video
Where is that leap of faith Dr.
P.?
Mary Therese
Honestly, I don't think Jordan Peterson is really in any position to make any authorization Theological claims at this point if he denies the actual Deity of Christ, His incarnation, death, and Resurrection in a literal historical sense.
I can see where you’re coming from, but who is giving him any authority? This is just a conversation and JP has his own, physiological viewpoint on scripture.
Obviously this stance is not concerned with the historical truth of the resurrection but that doesn’t mean it’s entirely unbounded by it. I think JP has significant insights on the human condition, while also acknowledging that he is no priest
He is a devout Catholic now
He may not be traditional but he is a believer and ultimately he is in that position due to his popularity/social media influence. I think he is a good man that means well but is confused by all of his academic secular knowledge in psychology and philosophy.
He will come to understand it, those things take time. And Gods patience and grace is plentiful, Jordan seems to have an open tender heart as well. I think he's ripe for the picking.
Only temporary suffering is to bear which means the amount of suffering must be to oversee wherefore stands open reason as Heaven's promise to future justice which results in patience. Faith is the trust on the prevailing law for Heaven's future promise fulfillment which brings to what is foreseen in Heaven's policy by promise to reach the promised future of eternal life in Paradise. Faith requires a justified contribution which starts from the day of birth while in the womb was the preparation since the first heart beat. The aspect of karma and eternal foreseeing is next followed by the structure of reality being part of and its conditions.
My takeaway: Suffering, it’s both a bug and a feature
I keep hearing this catch phrase. I have no idea what it means
😇
This is earth, not heaven, earth is suffering and heaven is joy. People can tell you they love you but desert you in an instant when hard times come. This is what God is doing “proving” you through suffering. “The government is upon His shoulder”, means God’s rule is the cross, bearing it patiently for “patience is perfect and entire, failing in nothing”, “Be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect” and “esteeming these scourges to be less than our sins deserve”. Look up these quotations on DRBO online bible. Imagine St. Padre Pio refused anaesthetic before an operation in imitation of Jesus refusing “wine and gall” before crucifixion. St. Augustine said “God had one son without sin, but He never had one without suffering” God bless.
Cristalisation of IQ, on a 40 year scale; Jordan : our little ethical problem is confirmed by Glickenhaus; What if I did not like golf courses.
I can’t believe I just heard this priest say, two minutes in, that he hoped the Lord would not heal the priest who had Lou Gehrig’s disease, because there were more people coming to the church, more people coming to confession, etc., etc.… What the heck? Has this father Pevonka suffered? If he had, he would never say such a thing. Some of us have been suffering for years and years… I’m to a point where I only listen to people who have been through it. People who have not been through extended suffering do not know what they are talking about.
That is why if you belong to any religion you should belong to a feeling good, properity gospel protestant denomination or the new age thing, the catholic church is a narrow path that very few are willing to go through
@@YiriUbic3793 🙏🙏🙏
He's not saying it in the sense that he likes/ enjoys that the priest had Lou Gehrig's disease. I'm pretty sure he would rather no one suffer. But he accepts the reality of this world, one with suffering and so he wants us to transcend it so it's not meaningless. He never really said "he hoped the Lord would not heal the priest btw". He is making sense of the suffering. The point is, as JP said, "being sick and bitter" is worse than just being sick.
My good and gentle Jesus, help me to always cling to your cross and suffer bravely for love of you. 🕊
Woosh
God could not allow evil to come into the world without some suffering to contend with. So why did God allow evil. The answer may shock you. Romans 9:22 “what if God, willing to show his wrath and wanting to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of glory he prepared beforehand for glory.” We cannot possibly know how good God is - without the other side of it. Similarly, you cannot have a good day till you’ve had a bad day first.
When Johnathon Edwards was asked, “why did God allow evil to come into the world?” He answered, “That his glory should shine ever so much brighter.”
Out of the Whirlwind
YHWH whispers
Gird your loins
Without a Hurt
The heart
Is Hollow
With His Own Hands
He Gave
Himself
I had a job I had Matches, ARAWAK ?
Quid ist veritas?
In the last days.... (whenever that will be) small children will have dreams of Heaven and dreams of God's plan....
This means Christ will GIVE TO small children to know what Christ will do in the future...
THIS IS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC BIBLE !!
We tinizza, though, I like clams, I have friends.....I liked bone made tools, clams, and brand new alcaline batteries; I like mineral Contrex Water;
Alll is transformed IF taken, given and left with Jesus WHO suffered (though Innocent!) and Resurrected (over pain, suffering & even Death!)
Matthew 11, 28* “Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened,* and I will give you rest. 29* Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for yourselves. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden light.”
Besides, in John 19: 26-27...
Jesus said to his mother, “Woman behold your son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” These were among the final wishes Jesus had for humanity just before He died on the Cross...
I had, a job I had a girl, I had something going somethin'-------------Did I forget to give back a pack of matches when I left from MTL......do you want to see a spark ? At the movies ?
Jordan will become a Catholic
I don’t think people listen to Jordan Peterson because he’s necessarily interesting. I think people are attracted to him…because he comes across as genuine and empathetic. The traits leaders are made of. Being genuine, and empathetic. You can’t teach this at school.