Taking the story as 100% real, which is almost surely not, he is the stereotypical selfish traitor who changes sides when his position is threatened and pleads allegiance only to himself. Like other known traitors of history, he probably justified his actions by thinking that it was actually Rome that betrayed him by not satisfying his enormous ego.
@@andreweaston1779 his initial march on Rome and massacre of the Marian faction was in response to his command being 100% legally transferred to Marius. Hard to describe it as anything but open rebellion. His officers felt the same way as all but 1 refused to follow his orders
Few peoole ever like to think of themselves as traitors, much like Brutus and Cassius thought the people would embrace them for killing Caesar. So, if he was a real character rather than an amalgamation or literary device, I would imagine that he saw himself as the one being betrayed. Scipio would later feel the same for being judged due to his corruption. And so did the US puppet dictators in Latin America during the Cold War. They saw themselves as the caretakers of society, that by imprisoning, torturing, exiling and killing their people, they would drive the nation into a state of inner peace. That people should just "know their place" and accept the status quo. Much like any abuser says "look at what you made me do to you".
“Coriolanus did not actually love his country or it’s religion. His loyalty wasn’t to Rome but his place within it. As his privileges became threatened he quickly turned his back on the Republic he professed to love.” Beautifully put!
Thanks - I know that sentiment may prove controversial to some but I think him leading an army against his homeland defineitely shows he wasn't a patriot
Gallic sack of 390 destroyed many of the records, so we need to rely on later sources that are unfortunately prone to mythic interpretations and anachronism
He gave us the Coriolis Effect! Physicists of the day loved Ancient Rome, and when they were thinking about turds circling the drain, they thought of him!
Its pretty hilarious that Romans glorified Cincinnatus when the model for disgruntled generals was Coriolanus. Many more Romans took his example over that of Cincinnatus. It took 400 years for another Roman general to march on Rome, but I imagine for at least a century before Sulla and Marius, it was very quietly considered a real possibility that any spurned Roman with command could do.
Loved this one - would really like to see you tackle all of Shakespeare's Roman plays from a similar angle. Was the "Friends, Countrymen, Romans" a shakespearean easter egg?
Wow super early on this one. Will take the chance to thank this channel for always prrsenting a great nuanced but confident take on Rome, always connecting it to the present. The best Rome channel on youtube easily!
thank you so much - that is such high praise and it is humbling to know that our work has been so well received. We will continue producing content that tackles the ancient world in all of its complexity and we are thankful for all the support we have received so far
The Patrician / Plebeian divide is fascinating. I don’t think it existed in other polities. Did the Plebeian clans have representation in the Comitia Curiata?
"In the Roman civil war, Julius Caesar knew he had to march on Rome itself, which no legion was permitted to do. Marcus Lucanus left us a chronicle of what happened: "How swiftly Caesar had surmounted the icy Alps and in his mind conceived immense upheavals, coming war. When he reached the water of the Little Rubicon, clearly to the leader through the murky night appeared a mighty image of his country in distress, grief in her face, her white hair streaming from her tower-crowned head, with tresses torn and shoulders bare she stood before him, and sighing said: Where further do you march? Where do you take my standards, warriors? If lawfully you come, if as citizens, this far only is allowed. "
Would you consider doing a video on the rule of the 30 tyrants in athens? I know you mostly focus on rome but I feel like this era really explains why contemporaneous philosophers like plato and aristotle did not like oligarchies.
I would absolutely love to cover it - however it is firmly outside my area of expertise. As the channel grows, I'm able to put more time and resources into it so I hope that we can grow the scope as well to encompass Greece. It's fascinating, I just don't know if I would have a lot of new things to say given my current knowledge base. That siad, it's always a possibilty
Shakespear was a large land owner who hated the enclosure movement so it's no wonder he presented his fellow evil aristocrat in a positive light xD Even Plutarch is all "Alcebides might have been a psycho but he wasn't this bad" in his comparison xD
Great point - I wanted to branch out and include some content on the Alcibides comparison becasue Plutarch really goes after him in that section but the video was already 20+ minutes so it got cut. I love plutarch's editorailing though, its why he's my favortie source from this era
@@blugaledoh2669 well we dont know much about shakespeare. could have been a noble, could have also been a commoner. its a though debate, well probably never know.
Coralinus mistook his martial prowess and genealogy for real power. Whilst trying to replace the iniquity of Monarchy with the rule of the Boni, he tripped over his hubris.
I know it's not exactly the historical period you mostly focus on, but did you ever think about doing a video on Heraclius, and in particular his involvement with the Serbs and Croats? Most of the few videos dealing with the topic have an "interesting" political bend and I think you'd offer a more nuanced, critical perspective.
I'll never say never - as the channel grows we're able to dvote more time and resources to the work here so as such I hope to keep expanding the scope of the project. However this is firmly outside my area of expertise so I would need to brush up on a lot to bring a fresh perspective to the subject. that said, if I pick up the right book I will proably go down a rabbit hole and the byzantines could become a new obsession
Excellent as usual. A question: Will you be following this up with a video on the Spartacus rebellion and why in particular the Romans were so freaked out by the slave rebellion that they decided to use crucifixion as a terror weapon to suppress future slave revolts?
The story of Spartacus is one of the primary inspirations for this channel - the other being the Gracchi. But these are the two topics I have avoided covering so far as I want to do each of these monumental topics the justice they deserve when they are eventually covered. So to answer your question, I will absolutely get around to Spartacus with an entire series on his life and career but this could take some time as I want it to be a cut above even the normal output for this channel
In this video I noticed how similar Coriolanus' proposal was to the mean spirited oligarchic Victorian reformers and their supporters (one of whom was a certain Malthus) of the English poor laws.
Great video! It would be great if you could also cover the story of M. Manlius Capitolinus who is, according to Colin Drumm's work, Coriolanus' counterpart.
Your videos are essential. Thank you for being a voice for the oppressed! Their struggle is still our struggle! Our liberation will be their liberation as well. Venceremos!
An offering to the mighty algorithm, may it shine its light on your channel. Also, I love how these early stories about Rome have all enemies be defeated by it. Even the sack was almost immediately avenged in their stories. Totally not transparent revisionism. 😅
18:07 While her speech was probably way too raw to be real, I feel like the truth of what happened is somewhere in between. I've seen mothers put themselves on the line in my lifetime so something of him being confronted by the elder women of Rome, perhaps his own mother among them, feels at least plausible.
Given the degree of respect that one had to show their parents it isn't out of the question that he would march on Rome and not turn back until his mom reminded him the pain his treason was causing her
You guys are cool. Roman history without rightist slave owner wannabe sympaties, good research and on point script. Beauty) Much love from 3rd Rome - its cultural successor and birthplace of socialist revolution.
Nothing good has ever come out of Moscow. Calling it a successor of Rome is a joke and insinuating the USSR was socialist is just ignorant. It has always been a backward and brutal autocracy regardless of the aesthetics.
@@tribunateSPQR Honestly a bit shocked there's no push back on the absurd notion of Moscow as a third Rome they're putting out there. It's pure chauvinism and utterly delusional.
@@sypherthe297th2It's been there since 15th century fall of Constantinople and exodus of Greeks to Muscovy and subsequent marriage of Ivan 3rd and Sophia Paleolog - descendant of the last dynasty. It was deeply religious view on current events, nothing chauvinist about that, Perhaps you are projecting your own bases or simply making a mistake of applying modern day morals to ancient events?
The point of history is to apply its lessons to the contemporary world. Making connections with similar phenomena is more useful than dry recitation of timelines
contemporary America should stop being so relevant to Rome then EDIT: lmao this video doesnt even mention America. Maybe you're the one seeing connections, alexander? 😉 happy to see you able to draw parallels across time!
Hey, I love your videos and I use them to fall asleep to basically every night, I would really really appreciate if you guys made them into a podcast, I hope other fans would like it too.
thanks for the suggestion - it's been considered but if we go that route we will want to make it distinct from the channel (i.e. more longform and oriented on narrative). Stay tuned and I"m sure we will have something soon
Why do you believe Coriolanus betrayed Rome? Do you think he even viewed it as treason?
Taking the story as 100% real, which is almost surely not, he is the stereotypical selfish traitor who changes sides when his position is threatened and pleads allegiance only to himself. Like other known traitors of history, he probably justified his actions by thinking that it was actually Rome that betrayed him by not satisfying his enormous ego.
Did Sulla?
The large landowner hypothesis makes sense to me, a strong independent rural power base, a Man of the Plaines like LaFollette.
@@andreweaston1779 his initial march on Rome and massacre of the Marian faction was in response to his command being 100% legally transferred to Marius. Hard to describe it as anything but open rebellion. His officers felt the same way as all but 1 refused to follow his orders
Few peoole ever like to think of themselves as traitors, much like Brutus and Cassius thought the people would embrace them for killing Caesar. So, if he was a real character rather than an amalgamation or literary device, I would imagine that he saw himself as the one being betrayed.
Scipio would later feel the same for being judged due to his corruption. And so did the US puppet dictators in Latin America during the Cold War. They saw themselves as the caretakers of society, that by imprisoning, torturing, exiling and killing their people, they would drive the nation into a state of inner peace. That people should just "know their place" and accept the status quo. Much like any abuser says "look at what you made me do to you".
This channel is a breath of fresh air in the sea of unoriginal Rome bros
Seriously! What a gem 💎
Also i love @historycivilis
Fully agree
Rome bros?
"Rome bad" instead of "Rome good" is refreshing.
“Coriolanus did not actually love his country or it’s religion. His loyalty wasn’t to Rome but his place within it. As his privileges became threatened he quickly turned his back on the Republic he professed to love.”
Beautifully put!
Thanks - I know that sentiment may prove controversial to some but I think him leading an army against his homeland defineitely shows he wasn't a patriot
Reminds me of someone
“One fire drives out one fire; one nail, one nail;
Rights by rights falter, strengths by strengths do fail.”
Early roman history is so under covered.
Because much of early Roman documents were destroyed in a gothic raid in the 300s bc (i think)
@@Byrneze makes sense, seems like the kind of history a King wouldn't like his peasants to know about
I agree - will be hitting on some of the early Roman history soon as there are many interesting aspects of early roman society that are neglected
Gallic sack of 390 destroyed many of the records, so we need to rely on later sources that are unfortunately prone to mythic interpretations and anachronism
He gave us the Coriolis Effect! Physicists of the day loved Ancient Rome, and when they were thinking about turds circling the drain, they thought of him!
Its pretty hilarious that Romans glorified Cincinnatus when the model for disgruntled generals was Coriolanus. Many more Romans took his example over that of Cincinnatus. It took 400 years for another Roman general to march on Rome, but I imagine for at least a century before Sulla and Marius, it was very quietly considered a real possibility that any spurned Roman with command could do.
Loved this one - would really like to see you tackle all of Shakespeare's Roman plays from a similar angle. Was the "Friends, Countrymen, Romans" a shakespearean easter egg?
Good catch - yes I was trying to do exactly that and now regret not working more into the script. Maybe on the next one
Sounded like one to me.
As a history buff, I am very intrigued by this video.
Wow super early on this one. Will take the chance to thank this channel for always prrsenting a great nuanced but confident take on Rome, always connecting it to the present. The best Rome channel on youtube easily!
thank you so much - that is such high praise and it is humbling to know that our work has been so well received. We will continue producing content that tackles the ancient world in all of its complexity and we are thankful for all the support we have received so far
I would love to see a similar take on the other Shakespeare works on Ancient Rome
Just listened to the play last night. Guess cry of the common curs is ringing in a lot of ears these days.
The Patrician / Plebeian divide is fascinating. I don’t think it existed in other polities. Did the Plebeian clans have representation in the Comitia Curiata?
The class wars between democrats and oligarchs in ancient athens seems similar, though that's more a traditional class war
The last time I was this early they were still arguing over whether it should be called "Roma" or "Rema".
haha
No small channel more deserving of Jupiter Optimus Maximus' algorhythmic blessing.
"In the Roman civil war, Julius Caesar knew he had to march on Rome itself, which no legion was permitted to do. Marcus Lucanus left us a chronicle of what happened:
"How swiftly Caesar had surmounted the icy Alps and in his mind conceived immense upheavals, coming war. When he reached the water of the Little Rubicon, clearly to the leader through the murky night appeared a mighty image of his country in distress, grief in her face, her white hair streaming from her tower-crowned head, with tresses torn and shoulders bare she stood before him, and sighing said:
Where further do you march? Where do you take my standards, warriors? If lawfully you come, if as citizens, this far only is allowed.
"
_Meet the new boss; same as the old boss_ (or, often, worse) is the default, not the exception.
Always love your videos!
Just got round to watching this after a hectic week. This has got to be one of my favourite videos you've done. Bravo guys!
thank you! We aim to keep elevating the quality so I'm glad to know that we are raising the bar with each week
I see why Suzanne Collins chose Coriolanus as President Snow’s first name in the Hunger Games.
Would you consider doing a video on the rule of the 30 tyrants in athens? I know you mostly focus on rome but I feel like this era really explains why contemporaneous philosophers like plato and aristotle did not like oligarchies.
I would absolutely love to cover it - however it is firmly outside my area of expertise. As the channel grows, I'm able to put more time and resources into it so I hope that we can grow the scope as well to encompass Greece. It's fascinating, I just don't know if I would have a lot of new things to say given my current knowledge base. That siad, it's always a possibilty
Great story
Neat. I need to perform some scenes from Coriolanus for my Roman history college-class.
Any pointers?
If you are Coriolanus then simply be as arrogant and contemptuous as possible and you'll capture some of the man's spirit
@@tribunateSPQR Sadly, I'm going to be Menenius.
Great video as always
thank you so much - apprecaite the positve feedback and support!
Shakespear was a large land owner who hated the enclosure movement so it's no wonder he presented his fellow evil aristocrat in a positive light xD
Even Plutarch is all "Alcebides might have been a psycho but he wasn't this bad" in his comparison xD
I didn’t know that about Shakespeare
@@blugaledoh2669 - I just got this from "the partial historians" video on the topic, so it might be wrong. They're a really good series on early rome
There is a movie about this guy staring Ralph Fiennes (Voldemort from Harry Potter) called Coriolanus based on the Shakespeare play.
Great point - I wanted to branch out and include some content on the Alcibides comparison becasue Plutarch really goes after him in that section but the video was already 20+ minutes so it got cut. I love plutarch's editorailing though, its why he's my favortie source from this era
@@blugaledoh2669
well we dont know much about shakespeare. could have been a noble, could have also been a commoner. its a though debate, well probably never know.
Coralinus mistook his martial prowess and genealogy for real power. Whilst trying to replace the iniquity of Monarchy with the rule of the Boni, he tripped over his hubris.
I know it's not exactly the historical period you mostly focus on, but did you ever think about doing a video on Heraclius, and in particular his involvement with the Serbs and Croats? Most of the few videos dealing with the topic have an "interesting" political bend and I think you'd offer a more nuanced, critical perspective.
I'll never say never - as the channel grows we're able to dvote more time and resources to the work here so as such I hope to keep expanding the scope of the project. However this is firmly outside my area of expertise so I would need to brush up on a lot to bring a fresh perspective to the subject.
that said, if I pick up the right book I will proably go down a rabbit hole and the byzantines could become a new obsession
@@tribunateSPQR Thanks for answering and doing great work!
Please do an analysis of each Shakepsearean Roman play
Great video
With a name like that, I believe it.
I want to see a video about the political issues that the masses fought for in Rome.
Excellent as usual. A question: Will you be following this up with a video on the Spartacus rebellion and why in particular the Romans were so freaked out by the slave rebellion that they decided to use crucifixion as a terror weapon to suppress future slave revolts?
The story of Spartacus is one of the primary inspirations for this channel - the other being the Gracchi. But these are the two topics I have avoided covering so far as I want to do each of these monumental topics the justice they deserve when they are eventually covered.
So to answer your question, I will absolutely get around to Spartacus with an entire series on his life and career but this could take some time as I want it to be a cut above even the normal output for this channel
In this video I noticed how similar Coriolanus' proposal was to the mean spirited oligarchic Victorian reformers and their supporters (one of whom was a certain Malthus) of the English poor laws.
Great video! It would be great if you could also cover the story of M. Manlius Capitolinus who is, according to Colin Drumm's work, Coriolanus' counterpart.
Thx
Great as always, however the old thumbnails were better
Your videos are essential. Thank you for being a voice for the oppressed! Their struggle is still our struggle! Our liberation will be their liberation as well. Venceremos!
Thank you for the encouragement! The struggle continues and I am happy to play my small part.
Meet the new boss same as the old boss just got fooled again Sorry Who just couldn’t help that
An offering to the mighty algorithm, may it shine its light on your channel. Also, I love how these early stories about Rome have all enemies be defeated by it. Even the sack was almost immediately avenged in their stories. Totally not transparent revisionism. 😅
Rome cannot fail, it can only be failed
Comment for the algo
Don't try ro starve other people. They might forget that you as a human aren't considered edible by humans.
18:07 While her speech was probably way too raw to be real, I feel like the truth of what happened is somewhere in between.
I've seen mothers put themselves on the line in my lifetime so something of him being confronted by the elder women of Rome, perhaps his own mother among them, feels at least plausible.
Given the degree of respect that one had to show their parents it isn't out of the question that he would march on Rome and not turn back until his mom reminded him the pain his treason was causing her
Taking a Roman class and this comes in handy to give pointers in class 😂😂⚔️⚔️
How do we even know what the Tarquins were really like? Didn't this all happen in a time before we have written sources?
The Roman Kingdom is quite mythological, yes.
More Shakespeare!!
Our American politicians probably would have fared well back then.
👍
Essentially validating a contemporary adage, ‘never let a crisis go to waste…!’ To convince the citizens to give up privilege!
You guys are cool. Roman history without rightist slave owner wannabe sympaties, good research and on point script. Beauty)
Much love from 3rd Rome - its cultural successor and birthplace of socialist revolution.
Nothing good has ever come out of Moscow. Calling it a successor of Rome is a joke and insinuating the USSR was socialist is just ignorant. It has always been a backward and brutal autocracy regardless of the aesthetics.
Apprecaite that - always happy to provide an alternative perspective
@@tribunateSPQR Honestly a bit shocked there's no push back on the absurd notion of Moscow as a third Rome they're putting out there. It's pure chauvinism and utterly delusional.
@@sypherthe297th2It's been there since 15th century fall of Constantinople and exodus of Greeks to Muscovy and subsequent marriage of Ivan 3rd and Sophia Paleolog - descendant of the last dynasty. It was deeply religious view on current events, nothing chauvinist about that, Perhaps you are projecting your own bases or simply making a mistake of applying modern day morals to ancient events?
@@ontheline3077 OK Vlad. How's that special military operation coming? Russia has always been backwards. The new Rome it ain't.
I'll categorize this video as a tribute to JD Vance.
Not the brightest bulb on the Saturnalia tree, was he
Rome betrayed him
They were protected by a sacred religious oath that called for the death of anyone who impeded them.
4:30 hey it's why Project 2025
Perhaps he didnt exist.
@@007dalal Maybe he did. You never know.
Based Coriolanus
Will you stop making videos about contemporary America, and go back to doing old Rome?
The point of history is to apply its lessons to the contemporary world. Making connections with similar phenomena is more useful than dry recitation of timelines
contemporary America should stop being so relevant to Rome then
EDIT: lmao this video doesnt even mention America. Maybe you're the one seeing connections, alexander? 😉 happy to see you able to draw parallels across time!
@@alexandergangaware429 America wasn’t even *mentioned* in this video.
LONG LIVE WEED
Shakespeare is full of it!
Hey, I love your videos and I use them to fall asleep to basically every night, I would really really appreciate if you guys made them into a podcast, I hope other fans would like it too.
thanks for the suggestion - it's been considered but if we go that route we will want to make it distinct from the channel (i.e. more longform and oriented on narrative). Stay tuned and I"m sure we will have something soon
The concept of nationalism is relatively new. Roman "patriots" were loyal to their family and their class, not to the state.