Honestly burying this message in all of media for the last decade, or longer even was not the way to do this. I think people underestimate the ability of people. That if you're up front and honest about what's going on and the stakes, there might be a moment of turbulence, but eventually most people will come to terms and understand. 😐 like being lied to for our entire lives isn't going to fix whatever it is that needs fixing because now their brains are a goddamn mess and can't tell up from down.
Because some people you're discussing are impatient enough that if they don't get a response fast enough, then they believe they won the debate. There's no time to pause and assess, you need to have your words ready on the go.
I still remember a lengthy twitter argument I had with a fanboy who seriously thought shows should hire a 'committee of fans' to offer feedback on scripts. Nothing I highlighted about the financial, legal and logistical nightmare, to say nothing of how getting a broad fandom consensus is nigh-impossible and such a group could be exploited by a toxic minority, penetrated his skull.
I don't think you can find a group of people less sure of what they want from any given franchise than the fanbase of that franchise. Recipe for disaster, not even factoring in how much massive franchises *ALREADY* try to cater to what the fanbase wants to usually mixed results.
@@cfsfilms5091 Two things are supposed to exist simultaneously - (insert show here) is both so badly run and incompetent they need fan help, yet also professional and well run enough to be able to take and integrate their suggestions on a huge production at the drop of a hat. Budgets, deadlines and schedules apparently can just be moved around like nothing.
Point him at Heroes S3, which explicitly listened to the fans, leading to several characters and plot threads flip flopping constantly throughout the season. Or Attack of the Cybermen, from when Ian Levine was at his most influential within the Doctor Who production, which gets so bogged down in continuity as to be painful at times. Fans can make some wonderful fanworks (some fanfic is genuinely delightful), and some wonderful 'inspired by' works (the Animon Story TTRPG is this for 'kids and monsters' media but especially the Digimon anime; Undertale for Earthbound; less directly, the indie obsession with Metroidvania basically exists due to people loving Symphony of the Night and Super Metroid) They can also - In the singular - make good works within the franchise they're fans of when they are the creative lead and they have experience outside of fandom, provided they're able to put their general writing (or whatever) hat on when making it (There has never been a point in the 21st century that Doctor Who hasn't had a fan as the creative lead - First RTD, then Moffat, then Chibnall, and now RTD again.) But creatives should never _listen_ to fans.
@@Stephen-Fox Individual fans or specific groups of fans can certainly make good work, both official and unofficial! Doctor Who as you've mentioned has basically only ever had fans of the series on the writing team because it's kinda hard to find someone in the UK who'd be interested in the job but isn't a fan. But it's very important to have a specific vision for a project, which is the kind of cohesion a large fanbase just is not capable of. The only thing large groups of fans tend to agree on is "I want this to feel like it did before because I already like what it did before," and that is not a good way to watch or produce media. Also worth noting that statistically most of the people in a fanbase who have ideas for how things should go are not writers, and a large amount I've seen online have zero consideration how hard it actually is to make things work. This is sorta reiterating the first bit; in order to do good work you kind of have to have a solid idea of what you're trying to do, instead of a nebulous and contradictory ball of ideas that haven't really been given serious consideration.
@@SavageBroadcast Dunning Kruger effect at its finest right there! A good of the people making these types of arguments genuinely don't seem to know very much about how TV production actually works, but they either don't care or think they already understand.
Mainly because it's a bit more "traditional" fantasy satire than later Discworld stories are, so while it's _funny_, it lacks some of the depth and nuance we've come to adore Sir Terry for. You know, like how people enjoy A New Hope, but generally agree The Empire Strikes Back is the better Star Wars movie?
@@gullyfeather4330 I started at the beginning ("Colour of Magic") and still got hooked, but "Guards, Guards!" is where the series really hits its stride. It's also the book that introduces the Watch and my beloved Sam Vimes.
When it comes up I try to stick to "I" statements. "I won't watch that because...." As an an example. I haven't watched any Tom Cruise films for a decade now *because* of the Scientology connection and some of the things that came to light when he split with Katie Holmes. I also don't tell people they shouldn't see those films. I just vote with my wallet and watch something else.
Joss Whedon is the big one for me. Buffy was one of my favourite shows ever as a teen, I deeply loved Firefly and have enjoyed other works of his but there are definitely some problematic elements in them looking back and knowing what a jerk he is has really made it hard to enjoy that stuff as completely. That said I can't suddenly pretend that those shows weren't important to me and that I don't still have warm but complicated feelings for them.
I'm not sure what problems you're referring to but maybe they're a product of their times, more than anything directly because it's Whedon and the way he turned out. I say this not to defend Whedon but as someone who is also a huge fan of his work (not the man himself these days), has seen Buffy, Angel and Firefly many times. I don't recall anything that I would seriously call a problem that is down to him. Finding out the reality about him was also a big one for me. I even somewhat defended him when the initial allegations from Ray Fisher surfaced because they were completely baseless. I saw it more as Fisher not personally liking Whedon or the way he worked, along with Fisher sticking up for his friend Snyder. It was only when the Charisma Carpenter stuff emerged later that the tables turned against him for me. However, while I may be against Whedon, I can personally still enjoy his work. It would be harder if he was an actor but we don't get to see him on screen so it makes it easier. Even as writer, creator and sometime director, I can split him away enough that I can still enjoy the work as that work is a huge ensemble effort. If anyone tried to tell me I'm 'bad' for enjoying it, my words to them wouldn't be polite. 🙂
@Elwaves2925: well there's Joss's "It's's fine that I hit on girls on staff because no one that hot would give me the time of day before I was famous," attitude. And yes, he actually said that
Yeah, that one hurts. It was also pretty disheartening when the guy who made Rurouni Kenshin turned out to be a pedophile. It's one thing to know stuff like that before you consume a given piece of media, but when you learn it *after* falling in love with something... it's a gut punch, every time.
Buffy is that one girl for me, the one I won't quit. It's still tainted by him though, and it's hard to separate it completely, but since a show is such a collective effort it's easier.
@@SuperEkkorn I feel the same way about Firefly. It's such a part of me. I thought I felt that way about HP, but it's been surprisingly easy to let that go.
Honestly I feel like this issue of "someone who worked on this thing is BAD, so don't watch it or you're BAD too" is a huge part of the reason why there's such a backlash to people trying to raise awareness of these kinds of problems. Because it's very easy to spin this into "the woke mob says you're not allowed to have fun anymore," when it's a lot more complicated and usually subjective than that. Up is one of my favorite movies of all time, if someone came up to me and tried to say I was a bad person for still watching it because the lead actor was a 9/11 truther I would get angry and defensive. If that person instead just explained their discomfort with watching it, I would feel like they're missing out on a great movie, but I would understand and respect their problem with it, even though it doesn't bother me nearly as much. I dunno, I just think this particular attitude of "you're not allowed to like this thing anymore because someone on the crew bad" isn't productive in a majority of cases, you do have some exceptions (I do think being a fan of and buying new Harry Potter stuff now is pretty indefensible, but it's very rare you get cases where a property is synonymous with a single person like that), but even there I think some of the way that whole 'debate' was handled handed the culture war creeps an incredibly useful bit of propaganda. To a lot of people it became less about the harm the creator was doing and more about the perception that the crowd on the internet was trying to police what it's okay to like, and why would you listen to someone doing something that seems so unreasonable? Part of me wonders if that's part of how there's still people trying the "oh she's not really transphobic" line, like there's still some refusing to listen because it got so wrapped up in personal relationships to the text.
Don't you mean it's the anti woke mob that's saying you can't have fun anymore pro woke people haven't really argued that much with people and are just fed up with obnoxious people
100% agree I'm so fed up and tired of people blaming woke ideology or getting angry at black people or gay people or woman on screen when it's not those peoples fault or even ideologues fault ,in reality it's all subjective and no opinion is the correct one most of the time that is also people need to chill out instead of writing/typing and thinking of angry or critical responses all the time Hell I like the star wars acolyte show and so do many star wars lore channels despite its flaws sure you may not like the show but you need too remember many people do regardless of your opinion or if your trying too fact check me but please for the of God don't try to convince people their wrong just cause they like something you don't like
Definitely agree, it's fine to take objection to a certain creator and their work because of their prior actions, but using said actions to shame people for liking their work or just generally make them uncomfortable accomplishes nothing aside from making you look like the guy from the Onion article who gets a rush from telling people that John Lennon beat his wife
@@Anna-BThe Harry Potter stories themselves are rife with racism, ableism and fat phobia, so I'm going to continue judging people who keep insisting how much they like them. It's not just that Roling thinks I should die. The stories themselves are also bad.
I completely agree. Unfortunately, the echo chambers of the internet and the dopamine hits that they bring make it all too easy to shift from a reasonable position into a moral panic at ludicrous speed. You have to be very vigilant to keep from letting yourself slip from "I don't want to support that person because of xyz" down into "no one should have ever supported them and if you're not with me, you're against me!".
I really appreciate the redirection strategy as an educator. It's something that good teachers out there should be trained to do when it comes to promoting an interest in wide reading. And it works for improving discourse as you say.
"Haters," yes; however I think the term is thrown around a bit too much. People who have criticism of something get labelled as a "hater" by those who just don't want to hear any of it. Criticism isn't a bad thing, though it's when that evolves into hate, which evolves into the very reason to continue interacting with the fandom, that's where the problem arises. It's the same as "toxic" fans, who dogpile on people with criticisms, whether they are valid or otherwise, and attempt to silence them as simply "haters." If you can praise as well as criticise, you are not a "hater" but blind praise is just as unhealthy as blind criticism. Conversations would be really dull if they were just people agreeing with absolutely everything everybody is saying.
My philosophy has always been "We all choose our own battles. I respect that you have chosen your battles. Please respect I may not choose the same battles."
I remember when the Hazbin Hotel pilot first came out, someone in an online group I was in started shouting at people about how nobody should ever in any way support anything Vivienne Medrano has worked on, citing some Tumblr post that was a list of every "problematic" thing she had ever done basically since she was a teenager. I don't really care for Hazbin Hotel and haven't watched anything beyond trying out the pilot, but decided to look up the worst accusation on the list and it was the absolutely most uncharitable interpretation/phrasing of what actually happened, in a way that imo had to be deliberate rather than a misinterpretation. The person in the group was a very progressive person in general, but there were more instances of them attacking people over supporting/not condemning enough some media property where they believed a person involved did something morally wrong, sometimes to the point where it felt more like bullying or harassing. I wonder with people like that how much they really believe that lashing out at other people over watching a show or whatever is actually having a positive effect, and how much they just like the rush that comes from feeling like they are morally justified in attacking someone.
I think people can be really blinded to what these sorts of backlashes can amount to because they're convinced they're doing it for a noble reason and punishing a Bad Person. It's an easy way to ignore/excuse bullying and harassment, as well as insulate yourself from any criticism of your behavior that might pull you back down to reassess what it is you're actually doing. Because you're trying to take down a "villain" and anyone trying to stop you is just allowing evil to keep happening, right? It really doesn't help that in online spaces when these things get going, it becomes a mob mentality that pulls other people along, after all if everyone is mad about something it must be a real problem, right? Very easy to assume you don't need to fact check something in that situation because surely someone in the group did it already.
The redirecting this is such a good idea imo. I'm currently making a list of series to give to my cousin who's cutrently reading HP for the first time and loving it. I think she'd love Equal Rites.
There are so many good stories from the Discworld series. Mort was always a favourite of mine but I love the character of Death, so there is bias there. Same goes for Death in the Sandman series where she's my favourite there. That's also highly recommended if they're okay with graphic novels.
@@Elwaves2925 I've thought of giving her Neil Gaiman books but she always was kinda easily scared, so maybe I should hold off for now. They're really nice books though.
@@dandelion_16 That's fair, you didn't say her age (don't need to) so she could have been anywhere. If she's young it might be a bit much, so one for when she's older.
I haven’t read the book for The Worst Witch but it’s been adapted to a few TV shows, several of which are on Prime and the most recent of which is on Netflix. They’re very, very similar to the early Harry Potter books in tone, setting, and characters. She’d probably really enjoy that, too. I need to check out Equal Rites, though. That one is completely new to me.
The entitlement from toxic fandoms (of any franchise) is killing so much of the joy of being a fan. Like I'm sorry, but you watching a show, or buying the bluray or whatever merch it makes, doesn't entitle you to either a say on the show or an audience with whoever's in charge. Creators don't 'owe' you: That's not how the consumer-product relationship works, and it shouldn't be how critical discussions work. You wanna be in that room and running things - start creating and earn the right to be there.
I disagree a little bit. With the commodification of art, customers or consumers are entitled to expect the art or product to be quality especially with greedy corporations trying to squeeze more $ from these consumers/customers
@@Thed538dhsk There's a difference between criticizing for quality, and acting like you should be allowed to control the product, thereby diminishing creative freedom.
Nuance is important. We all should pause before passing judgment. Also, our own red lines are valid for us, not for everyone. P.S. I nearly cry whenever you say "you are beautiful, you are valid, you are loved".
I also get such massive feels from being told I am beautiful, valid and loved. It's not something I consciously doubt, but being told, in such a sincere way, is really meaningful. Thank you, Vera!
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” ― Buckminster Fuller
One thing I think a lot of people don't realize is how dangerously addictive righteous outrage online can be. It's a multi-layered high, the adrenaline surge combined with the feeling of fighting in what you know is a correct cause, now with the added social media layer of accolades from others (or a sense of virtuous martyrdom if you don't get that). It sinks its hooks in hard, and the last thing you're inclined to do when surfing that kind of moral elevation is question whether or not what you're doing is actually good. After all, the cause is just, and you feel righteous doing it, so it must be good, right? (I actually consider myself fortunate in that my worsening chronic fatigue took the denial out of my hands before things like Twitter really took off, because you can only get so many nasty post-adrenaline comedown shakes before you start noticing there's an issue there. It's not much of a silver lining for a miserable condition, but I would have been a Twitter nightmare, so it's something.) Worse, even if someone is starting to observe that all the online fighting isn't great for them personally, conflating the actions they're undertaking with the cause itself can result in people feeling like they're doubting that cause if they start questioning "Should I maybe not participate in public harassment of someone for liking the wrong show/the gross pairing/the bad character/the wrong top-bottom configuration of the good pairing*?". Entire communities of people have sold themselves on the idea that social justice activism in fandom requires these things and doubting that is failing the effort. It's a fair bit depressing. * Not a hypothetical. Sherlock fandom was intensely fucked up, and 221B Con in 2015 was run by assholes who permitted in-person harassment of panelists. Probably not that many people still remember, but it's a grudge I'm willing to hold.
The icks and what is crossing the line for each individual really shows in fanfiction. There’s a lot of people who believe that if you write fanfiction about dark themes, or inmoral things, or sometimes just about non-canon ships, then you’re a terrible person and obviously endorse that kind of thing in real life too. There have been smears campaigns and doxxing people just because of the kind of fics/fanarts they made, which is insane. The “don’t like, don’t read/watch/interact” is being lost in today’s internet. Everything has to be called out because x person is obviously terrible and no one should like them or their work, even if the only thing they did was to write or draw a vent piece of their fav ship. Most people also seem to have lost the reading comprehension and the ability to separate fiction from reality, as if you write about murder then you suddenly are going to kill people in real life too. Luckily that seems more prominent in sites that I don’t use anymore, so I avoid all the drama that is not important and doesn’t have a real weight in real life. Thanks for your videos, they’re always so interesting ❤❤❤
The "anti" fandom discourse was absolutely the reason why the Hazbin storyboard artist got attacked. It's the "you're fetishizing rape" people when he said in that interview "I'm sorry you walked into my scene and saw something you didn't want to see, but that's not my problem." It's the exact same anti discourse in fanfiction.
@@jackskellingtonsora Oh, yeah, I thought about it after posting the comment, but it was already long enough xd But it is indeed the same sentiment, which it sucks tbh
Came here to talk about this exact thing, especially as someone who loves darkfic and has since I was 12 years old. It’s exhausting being told I’m an abuse apologist for wanting to read about fictional content while literally being worried about being taken advantage of bc of my inability to drive. And that’s not even touching how many abuse survivors I’ve met and am friends with on these dark ships. Utterly frustrating dealing with fancops tbh.
With the “checking your sources” bit, I have a personal account for a fandom I was in a few years ago. In the story which was set in Japan and made in Japan, we got the name of a character revealed in a chapter that we hadn’t known for a while as Maruta Shiga. Now to English speakers is name is as innocuous as any other Japanese name. But in the fandom we soon heard that apparently the series had stopped being published in China because of some outcry of the name choice. I didn’t know the specifics, but for a little while a lot of the fandom, myself included, decided that if it was going to be banned in the entirety of China, there was probably a good reason for it. But I soon did a bit of research into the specifics. And what I found was that Maruta Shiga referenced Unit 731 and the man who ran it, Shiro Ishii. It was referencing the terrible crimes Shiro Ishii and Unit 731 committed during WWII against Chinese people. It is truly one of the worst parts of history I have ever learned about and really makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about it. So I thought I understood then why there had been outcry like this from China. But then when you look to the context in the story, this man named Maruta Shiga, he was an evil scientist who experimented on people and is truly perhaps the most evil person in the entire series. From what I saw, the name was chosen to try and make it clear what a truly abhorrent character this is. And then the backlash confused me, honestly it seemed like a rather good thing to educate people on this part of history that people may like to hush up. But by the time I realised that, the author had received enough pressure that he changed the characters name to Kyudai Garaki.
@@yusaki8064 The story is now in its epilogue, so if you ever feel like returning to the series best to keep you distance from the fandom as you have been for a while now. best way to experience the story for now
@@jonathandear4914 Oh, I’m still reading. Just not really in the fandom. Like in the same way I watch Star Wars. I have watched 9 of the films. But I don’t engage with the Star Wars fandom and don’t intend to. I’m as casual watcher of Star Wars and a casual reader of MHA.
I am a drag fan. I enjoy Drag Race, I subscribe to WOW, I go to shows, etc. I am not under the delusion that it is 100% a drag competition and more like scripted reality. I *know* the fandom has racism, anti-trans sentiment, body biases, and more. It's affected the show to the point where the contestants are constantly aware that everything they say and do might be ridiculed on social media before the episode even ends. This is why the earlier seasons the Queens were more catty and brutally shady to each other, whereas now it's much more rare. I also know that RuPaul is not a role model. Everything from trying to show support to the trans community by posting a flag that supports....trains? There is a segment that was scrubbed from season six called "Male or Shemale". I still can't believe that she won an emmy for best casting for a season that had to be heavily edited to remove a contestant who abused and strung young men along with promises of starring roles on HBO. There are a lot of things about her I find "eccchh", but she is not the whole show. I watch the Queens, I enjoy the performances, and indulge in a little drama enjoyment.
This is probably the oldest of old news to you but I just discovered a drag queen double act on UA-cam and am a little crazed at spreading the gospel: NOVYMPIA ? (Possible misspelling but this'll get you there)
I always like watching your videos. You're one of the fairest and most balanced vidders on youtube. You make your points well, with rarely any vitriol that raises your voice and you can often make me chuckle (I do English good, me.)
If someone wants to boycott a creator or company because of your values, that’s great and I can respect someone for sticking to their beliefs. If someone then imposes those beliefs on someone else to condemn and ostracise them, you’re now the one being the asshole.
I agree cause once in a message on Facebook once where someone yelled at me for just ask people to respect Clooney as being apart of Batman’s live action adaptions and that I could still find enjoyment out of Batman and Robin even though I have my own issues with the movie cause I had gotten tired of seeing the Clooney hate meme that was going around of showing the actors that have been Batman at the time with Clooney crossed out like I was being told in the message that the person got upset that I was essentially saying let’s just all accept he played Batman and move on nobody has to like him in the role and it also implied that cause the sender of the message couldn’t get enjoyment out of the movie that I wasn’t allowed to and that part stuck with me
Nah, if you're giving money to someone like Rowling who is actively harming people... You are culpable for that. Either own it and accept culpability for feeding evil, or don't contribute to evil. You don't get to consume without morality. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.
@@FaeQueenCory Only the evil that affects you though right, so many things we consume are contributing to ‘evil’ in one way or another, or are children in sweat shops less important. My point is its all or nothing and no one lives a completely moral life
@@FaeQueenCorybuy YOU DO. There is a disconnect that is baked in. People can rationalize when they buy Harry Potter merch that it's directly going to JKR since they buy the merch from a cashier or online instead of buying from her
Toxicity exists on both sides. There are many people who boycott unfavorable writers or other creators who hide behind a good cause like DEI or Me Too who act just as toxic as the people they claim to oppose. I’m all for equality but not reversing disenfranchisement. Coexistence and agreeing to disagree seems to no longer be an option. When I suggested to someone that we need to allow some of the older generation to catch up, they said they just want them to die off. What that person didn’t realize is that the people they want to die off have left legacies.
To be honest, it's almost always a case by case situation if something feels "icky" enough to me to not touch it with ten foot pole, giving it a chance despite knowing about some problematic stuff or yeah not caring that much about it. (Although the more I'm aware of general social injustices, the lesser the cases where I don't care at all). For example I might give certain pieces of media a chance despite knowing their mixed queer representation ranging from okay and close to good to offensive stereotypes. In those cases I'm just so used to this kind of dilemma, that I try to make the best out of it and create my own headcanons. Some things hit much closer to home like the whole HP stuff with the transphobia than other things that don't directly affect me or my group. That's something where I do judge even close friends for still liking it, although they know all of it. But as long as they don't start conversations about it, I'm more than happy to avoid the topic myself and "let it slide". In the back of my head I still know it, that this is something I don't like about friend x, but there will always be something about other people you don't 100% like about them. While for me it might be a thing that others still eat meat, for them it could be the other way round and they silently accept that I'm vegan, although it can sometimes complicate things when we go to a restaurant, or chill and eat together. I might also not be happy when someone listens to music artists who have abused their power to groom/abuse their fans, although they apparently did nothing that crossed a legal line. But as long as they don't go the extra mile and praise those people or defend them against the allegations of multiple victims, I can let it slide. It might add up with multiple things over time, making me feel uncomfortable or even unsafe around someone, which then negatively impacts our relationship, but I don't go around and tell people: "You're a bad person if you consume xyz" If someone is a bigot, then I'm angry. If someone fully supports a bigot on every level, then I'm angry. If someone supports a bigot although knowing about their bigotted views and actions, and disagreeing with them, then I'm more sad and maybe disappointed than angry. Because although I understand how hard and painful it can be to cut ties with something like HP, that has been there as a source of comfort and joy for a long time, I still wish more people would do it. But I'm far from going around and telling people to stop it. I avoid HP fanspaces. I avoid getting into talks about the topic and I'm cautious around people I don't know except that I know they are an HP fan.
Yeah, I had that book in my TBR pile from a library sale and after year of not reading it I learned what Bradley had done and I decided that I wouldn't be able to not think about that as I read and decided to donate it back to the library.
I read this as a kid. Then I met and spent time with her daughter (who was problematic in her own way but also legitimately traumatized) before the book. Now I can’t reread it.
nuance?? in MY media discourse?? anyway, this is very insightful and I appreciate how you always bring up counterpoints and consider other views. a rare and valuable skill, there.
There’s tons of alternatives to HP if you know where look. I always recommend Percy Jackson as the author is adamantly queer supportive, collabed with a queer author on one of his books and actively fights back when transphobes attack him for including a gender fluid character in one of his series. And yes Discworld is great, but there’s tons of other people (more qualified than myself) that can explain why since I’m not even a quarter of the way done with it. There’s also Earthsea which first popularized the concept of a wizard school.
I definitely avoid certain communities or play down my love for certain IPs because of their fanbases. I've had the opposite happen though to. Where I get more involved because the community is very friendly. The G.I. Joe and Power Ranger communities are pretty nice
I haven’t been involved at the Star Wars fandom for a very long time because of the toxicity in it. It feels paradoxical that fans love nothing more to do than to bash Star Wars. Of course I’m sure there’s people that love Star Wars and don’t partake in it, but I haven’t really seen anything new beyond the force awakens and rogue one
Thank you for the video, Vera! The aspect of being able to consume a problematic media work usually comes down to personal tolerance. If the work or its creator(s) promote(s) or endorse(s) some theme or message which someone finds unacceptable or disgusting, they probably should stay away from it. Personally, I do not have problems with raising awareness about the issues of a problematic media work. However, harassing other people and demanding them to not consume the work is very wrong! At the worst case scenario, people should just avoid or cut their ties with other ones involved in the problematic media work, especially if the latter are influencers/celebrities.
What about when fans get upset at other fans over "quality"? Some "fans" get upset that some other fans watch and even like disney star wars. They feel those fams are funding the destruction of the brand by giving $ to what they view as the cause of lesser quality. Or OT fans who got mad at prequel fans for giving continued support to prequels
Yep, see so much of this. 'You supporting these things is supporting destroying this franchise! If you really cared about the franchise you'd boycot it like me so everyone destroying it will get fired" I've seen so much of that.
What about it? If a franchise is no longer for you, yes that sucks. But looking for somebody to blame, especially if it’s people who *are* enjoying what it’s become is just gatekeeping and it gets really ugly really quickly.
@@CouncilofGeeks yes the idea of instead of wanting people to NOT watch a show or film due to the creatives but because of the perceived quality. Some fans want a whole fan base to go on "strike" until they feel the quality is to their liking. Or what about instead of because creatives fans want a show or film to not be watched because of the company that owns that show or film. Like wanting to stop watching DC films until Snyder is rehired by WB-Discovery by the snyder fans?
@@Thed538dhsk as long as they’re not getting mad at the people not doing the same thing it’s harmless enough. Just slot all of this under “just don’t be an asshole about it” rules.
I'm an OT SW fan who hates the prequels (except Sith), it is easy, I just don't watch them. 🤷♀️ I like some of the new SW shows and some I don't. Why is it so hard to just not watch what you don't like? I loved TLJ and still didn't get why people who didn't acted like it was the end of the world. I didn't throw myself on the ground in a tantrum saying the prequels ruined my childhood, even though they did kinda ruin Darth Vader for me. I pretty much just ignore the prequels. This is what adults do. 🤷♀️
I will admit to have had my emotions get the better of me in some discussions. I definitely feel like there are a multitude of lines that intersect between what content is presented within the product, how it coincides with the creator’s beliefs and values, and what the viewer’s own interpretation of said product and values they take from both product and creator. I also feel that separating art from the artist or calling death of the author is all very case by case thing. Not one of has a fully definitive answer, but what I feel is most important is that you at least are able to recognise the potential shortcoming in the media you engage with and understand how, while it might not affect you, it can cross that threshold for others.
One of my big UGH points is Scientology. I try HARD not to support anything that might end up giving money to them. Of course, I can't know every single Scientologist in the world, but I haven't (knowingly) seen a movie with either Tom Cruise or John Travolta in almost 23 years (Exception being Tropic Thunder as I had NO IDEA Tom Cruise was on it). However, I'm very aware it's a ME issue, so I don't ask anyone else to do the same, or even comment on it outside of when someone invites me to watch one of their movies (Or I need to ask for spoilers to avoid another Tropic Thunder situation)
There's a particular performance of a song done by R Kelly that i really loved. I tried to reason with myself "the songwriting wasn't done by him. The orchestration wasn't done by him. If it was another singer who could sing as good as him, i would still love it, so i shouldn't feel weird still watching, right?" In the end i concluded: just listen to other music, there's plenty of media to fall in love with
Usually when people support work made by creators I find problematic I just ignore it or stop supporting the person who promotes the work because I don't like starting fights or get into drama unless it Dom Noble because he has shown himself to very willing to learn.
One that I've had an especially hard time with is Harrison Ford being willing to star in Roman Polanski's Frantic a decade after the case. As far as I know, he's never made any kind of statement in the years since defending it or regretting it, which would at least give me some kind of baseline for how I should feel.
I know what you mean. After Polanski was arrested in Zurich back in 2009, there was a now somewhat infamous “free Polanski” petition signed by some of my favourite film industry people, such as Martin Scorsese, David Lynch, Wes Anderson, Jeremy Irons, Harrison Ford (and fittingly enough I think Harvey Weinstein also signed it, apparently saying “Hollywood has the best moral compass”) and other actors like Meryl Streep supported him in other ways. Big yikes.
@@samuelbarber6177 I remember one who was totally against it was Kevin Smith, saying something like "I love Chinatown too, but this has nothing to do with it."
Tw: Self harm As someone who was harassed by JK's terf mob to the point of being hospitalized for over a week over suicide I have a really hard time engaging with anyone who is a Harry Potter fan. As a victim of online abuse I would never harass anyone for enjoying that but it's honestly too difficult for me to be around it and I have a hard time judging those willing to speak up about it. I just can't trust Harry Potter fans to treat me like a person when they so freely discount the harm I and many others have been subjected to because of that author, so as much as I agree and understand with your points I can kind of see the other side too a bit.
People have the freedom to like what they like, even with all the information. I however have the right to not feel safe around you and assert my boundaries without reprisal. I'm sorry this happened to you. Mob rule is prevalent in toxic fandoms and just because it's known doesn't mean it's okay.
I think this also needs to be untangled in a lot of therapy if able. I'm a huge HP fan not because of JKR, I don't care what she says. But it's because I've basically been to all of the HP places. I'm NB, I fall under the trans umbrella, I donate to The Trevor Project and Trans Lifeline. I haven't consumed HP content in years, haven't been to an HP place like wizarding world. And if, for some reason, I do, then it's handmade or picked up from Goodwill. But you'd probably see my HP tattoo and steer clear of me and would never know. The problem is lumping everyone into one bad group.
@@infinitecurlie Sorry but all of that simply reeks of good cop fallacies. Can there be Harry Potter fans that are good? Yes obviously, but I have no obligation to disentangle you from the rest. Also as 'good' as you may be you're still here 'not all men'ing it about people that by and large continue to fund and support a woman responsible for my abuse and the abuse of many others. Finally I'm glad you have the luxury of being able to ignore what she did but being around you would mean having a constant source of triggers thrown in my face so you don't have to feel bad about it. So yeah I would absolutely have to steer clear and I won't apologize for it.
I only heard about JK Rowling from you. I very much limit my online life because there is so much hate that is not backed up. (All of Terry Pratchett's books are awesome and very rereadable) I enjoy your thoughtful videos, so thank you. And your reaction short to Venom3 was so funny! I started watching you for the Dr. Who reviews. Honestly, I stay for your affirming words at the end. You are valid, you are beautiful, and you are loved by me, too. Blessings to all and thank you for your work
I do love that, when in doubt, everyone recommends Terry Pratchett. The patron saint of generally nice people. I do like the idea of recommending /building up a new or lesser known franchise to help ease people away from a problematic franchise. There is so much good stuff out there. It's a nice idea to give people choices, rather than just expecting them to go 'cold turkey' on something.
Regarding the confirmation bias, I'd highly recommend the film Shattered Glass as a great demonstration of it, where several of Stephen Glass' co-workers admitted afterward that they might have looked at his work more critically, except he was always making Republicans look bad so they weren't as inclined to question it.
I recommend the Skulduggery Pleasant books not because they're similar to Harry Potter, but because they ABSOLUTELY FUCKING RULE. And Uncle Derek is a representation king, he actually wrote explicitly queer and non-binary characters into the later books. Plus the way he describes chosen names is so empowering. Love Harry Potter? Go read Skulduggery Pleasant. Hate Harry Potter? Go read Skulduggery Pleasant.
@@mdstevens0612 Yeah I mean I've always preferred Skulduggery Pleasant over HP, I grew up with the books and I was around the same age as Valkyrie when the first wave was being released. Derek is an amazing writer I would absolutely love a Doctor Who episode written by him (I believe he's written a DW Book). It's really cool to find people who still enjoy Skulduggery Pleasant (I'm currently behind trying to catch up I'm on 'Seasons of War' and really enjoying it so far)
As someone very aware of certain authors having done shitty things back in middle to late '00... Some of the (sometimes massive) resources created about it back in the day are just gone now. I've seen some YT channels trying to dive into these topics and they only seem to find random screenshots of these resources, but the original websites and stuff like that are just gone. There are whole recorded histories about the shitty behaviour of people that are just gone now because the people who compiled and created these resources did so on free website platforms that no longer exist or because they stopped paying the hosting fees. 'The internet is forever' until a free website host stops working (or purges accounts that haven't been active in 2-3 years) or until people stop paying the hosting fees (for whatever reason). There are plenty of things that I know I can no longer provide primary sources for because of this and even when I see YT videos about these topics, even those people can only find screenshots of screenshots of it. It blows my mind how fickle the internet is at times...
Something I've realized recently is that trying to, I think this is the best way I can put it, run every piece of media you consume through a morality litmus test is exhausting and ultimately not worth it. I'm not just talking about media made by bad people. I'm also talking about media that has some kind of problematic content. For example, anime that sexualizes teenage characters or the older Disney movies that contained offensive caricatures of marginalized racial groups or even romantic comedies that portray stalking and obsessive behavior as romantic. As much as I think it's good, even important, to recognize that those kinds of things are problematic and I'm all for people starting discussions on why they're harmful, I'm usually not going to drop or not watch something just because it has some minor element like that in it and I won't ask anybody else to. It's very much possible to watch something that has stuff like that in it without agreeing with it or being influenced by it. For example, I watch a lot of anime and I've watched/liked a lot of anime that sexualize teenage characters (and sometimes characters who look younger than 13, but are actually 1,000 years old). I'm not attracted to minors. I take the very popular stance that pedophilia is bad. And I also think it's really bad and I would prefer it if anime I watch didn't do this. I want to put a big asterisk on this. I won't judge you for liking something that has an element some people declare problematic, but I also think it's really important to not get defensive about it when people try to explain why they declare it problematic. My mom likes the book Me Before You. A few years ago, she brought the book up and I said that a lot of disabled people have said it's offensive. She got really defensive and tried to make excuses for it and said "Well just because some people think that doesn't mean it's bad". Typically these days if I find out that someone who was involved in a piece of media I like did a bad, it'll sour my opinion of that person and I usually won't bring up that person by name if I'm explaining why I like it to someone, but I won't completely wash my hands of that piece of media. Hell, I've even watched things AFTER learning about how people involved in them did a bad. I actually don't think there are any specific actors or directors I avoid. I think I've only ever done that with UA-camrs. I've really loved her video essays and I think they're very well made, but I just can't watch iilluminaughti anymore. I understand why it can be bad to financially support or give attention to something made by someone who has done or believed something harmful. But at the same time, I just can't. I can't completely drop something I like at a moment's notice because I find out about something someone said or did just to...what exactly? Keep myself pure? In the end, my decision to watch or not watch a movie doesn't affect much. Ultimately, this shit has to be a personal decision. The world is stressful, my life is stressful, and I kind of just want to watch stuff without having to make sure I'm "allowed" to watch it.
Here's what made me take a step back because I always said "I will never support the work of bad people" Harvey Weinstein. He's obviously one of the worst people to ever make art. If you like films in the 20th century, and early 2000s, chances are some of your favourite films were produced by Weinstein and his money and he has profited off and will continue to profit off your enjoyment of those products.
I remember once in a thread in a horror movie group on Facebook when I merely stated that I'd never watched Jerpers Creepers because of my issue with Victor Salva. And hoo boy, did I hear about it. Everything from the folks who flat out told me that I was stupid and missing out on some great movies, to the apologists if his actions ("well, he served his time, doesn't he deserve a second chance?" No!!!), to the folks who told me that I dealved too deep into it and that I shouldn't be that way. Sorry, not sorry. I won't go out of my way to yuck somebody else's yum, but I also won't back down from explaining my problems with certain creators if pushed. Great conversation starter, Vera!
17:50 yup, this right here is *the entire POINT* . In the end is it really _worth it_ to point out the problematic stuff? Not to mention, is it _truly_ problematic? Anyhow I recommend the manga The Witch Hat Atelier for magic school (or rather, magic apprenticeship in this case) for magic school stories. Not only the story is great, the art style is absolute ✨ *CHEF'S KISS* ✨. Go read it if you haven't! 😏
Hazbin Hotel is an interesting case of having extreme fans and extreme haters. People that really hate Hazbin Hotel use anything considered controversial to justify hating the show. I actually haven't seen Hazbin Hotel yet because I'm saving it for October and I'm completely ignoring the discourse around it like I do with the last Jedi and the last of us part 2. When the Channel Awesome controversy happened, I regret watching pathetic drama videos on the controversy. I completely ignore drama around UA-camrs I don't watch ever since. If a UA-camr I watch did something unforgivable, I just unsubscribe and move on with my life. I've unsubscribed and move on with my life from The Completionist for charity fraud and making a terrible apology video downplaying his terrible actions with more disgusting manipulation than Jennette Mccurdy mother. People can miss news about people being terrible while online, I've missed news about UA-camrs I used to watch being horrible people. Discovering JonTron political views is disappointing and I don't regret unsubscribing from him. I once had this one Let's Play UA-camr I've unsubscribed from long ago that didn't upload for years only to find out they were arrested for r@pe and were in jail the whole time and I somehow never heard news about it until I searched them on UA-cam. I honestly can't watch Dan Schneider shows anymore with his shows aged worse than milk after I'm Glad my Mom Died & Quiet on a Set. I'm glad my response to Ezra Miller controversies was just supporting Non Binary lesbian icon Bella Ramsey instead. Differently Morphous & Existentially Challenged by Ben Yahtzee Croshaw are better books to read over Harry Potter.
Honestly, Hazbin Hotel's always been one of those "I don't know anything about this show/creator...and at this point, I'm too afraid to ask!" pieces of media because of the sheer amount of polarization. Like, merely ASKING what happened or who did what surrounding it seems to be the conversational equivalent of a bomb going off in a forum or comments section! And as a result, it's a little difficult at least from my perspective to drill down to the actual events, especially given how extreme haters will blow small things out of proportion and extreme fans will minimize genuine instances of real harm.
I like listening to you good talk speak. 😊 I appreciate that you bring matters I might not be aware of to my attention and you bring a thoughtful differing viewpoint at times.
I'm a big believer in the maxim that there is no truly ethical consumption under our form of capitalism. Each of us has to find ways to cope with that, and when it comes to separating the art from the artist, many of us have our red lines for some, and give others some leeway. Take Buffy the Vampire Slayer for instance. Joss Whedon is, frankly, a total asshole. However, while he created Buffy and Angel and Firefly, there were a whooooooooole host of extremely talented people working on it as well, from writers like Marti Noxon and David Fury, to loads of staffers, makeup artists, wardrobe, stunt performers, and actors like Sarah Michelle Gellar and so on, right on down the line. Buffy is bigger than Whedon, and I won't let him being a dick ruin my enjoyment. And in Whedon's case it's helpful that he kind of vanished from the limelight. Oh yeah, he pulled the non-apology blame-everyone-else game in an interview, but otherwise he's been quiet. And that's for the best. Rowling, however, is a far bigger lightning-rod due to her continued battles against the Trans community. As such, I can understand when people disengage from that fandom entirely. It's absolutely valid. We all have to make our own choices here as fans, and the best thing we can do is to let other fans make theirs. If we disagree, fine, but that's where it should usually end. You know, save for the hateful people who harass and make fandom toxic. They can pound sand.
Your council is much appreciated on this subject, because I have certainly felt that participating in fandom has become more charged than ever before, to the point that I have actively reduced my participation in online discussions for fear of having a "wrong opinion" that will forever follow me in the panopticon of social media. I do feel like this conversation goes hand in hand with the idea that we have fewer and fewer routes of positive political change in our governments and their oversight (and the rise of nasty political rhetoric to boot...I'm looking at you alt-right) that more and more people have relied on the idea that your choice of entertainment, speaks about what kind of person you are ethically and morally. Now, certainly choices of entertainment are reflective of your general viewpoint (if you spend all your spare time reading Mein Kampf "for funsies", that says something about your worldview and I can't say that it's very good), but something like being unaware or willing to divorce the creator from their work ("death of the author"), or even being willing to grant grace to an individual who had bad ideas once, and then through education and thoughtfulness moved through that to change, is largely unfair. Again, this lies in the subtleties, where does the line get drawn for you? How have these individuals showed change? Is it just a performance for social media to save face (and their paycheck)? These are all questions we should be asking when deciding if it is something we wish to engage with as a form of entertainment. And really, we should be asking these questions as the piece of media chooses to depict difficult subjects and topics too. I like horror as a genre, and there is a large amount of violence in that genre - does that make me a violent or "bad" person or do I like to engage with the philosophical content that the creators choose to use in their stories? Stephen King wrote IT and includes a graphic group sex scene of the Losers Club as teenagers. It has been controversial since it's publication, and never included in the film and television adaptations, but IT is also a story of childhood innocence lost and what is more symbolic of adulthood than the engagement of sexuality? But, I digress. We deserve to draw our own personal boundaries around who we choose to support financially and creatively, and while reliable information should be shared about creators and content, the endless bashing and hazing of what is your decision to engage with isn't productive to helping real people who are really being harmed. Are there bad actors who should not be supported any longer, who have been apologized for despite their behaviors? Absolutely yes and I think we should stop encouraging people to engage with their work (Roman Polanski, Woody Allen, Harvey Weinstein, JKRowling are exactly these people) because they are continuing to create harm by normalizing behavior that is causing active harm to real people and abusing their platform to perpetuate their abuse. If they have bad opinions, well... that is more of a case by case basis.
Oh, Harry Potter... what broke that for me was not specifically what JK has been up to in the past years. I'm so sorry, but as despicable as it is, it didnt break the line for me. No, what broke HP for me, was people pointing out, just how weird the whole wizarding world was to begin with, and how littered it is with fucked up politics. Highly recommend Sheep In The Box's video "The Concerning Politics Of Harry Potter". I keep it in my heart as a nostalgic fave, the movies as a piece of art, and especially the music by John Williams. But I will probably never read the books ever again.
@@infinitecurlie dude... the pooping wizards making their shit disappear was actually my first drop, and then came Sheep's video, then Shaun's, and it just not fixable at this point lol
Great video! And amusing too because I distinctly remember a comment on the interview video you mentioned being all 'What about this allegation? And that allegation huh? Are you gonna address that or?' and... you literally talked about it at length in the video... I don't know, people sometimes seem to pick a 'villain of the week' and it doesn't matter what this person did or if they even did it, they're just bad now and you are too if you associate with them at all... (Naturally I'm not talking about people who genuinely harm others, like Rowling, they can and SHOULD be criticised. I definitely side eye ppl who still buy official Harry Potter stuff. My comment is more talking about people dogpiling someone because they drew/wrote a fictional scenario involving fictional characters and that makes them bad I guess)
Highly agree with the last part about asking people to cite where they get their info from 😎. I do that all the time or at least ask people "How so" when they make wild claims, so that they can back up what they are saying or so that others can look into it 🤔.
I think what’s needed is to understand that especially in a collaborative medium like film, the line for what repels people is very fluid, and the issue is whether or not they acknowledge the issues with the work or the people involved (and how those people affected that work). I for instance am repelled by JK Rowling for MANY reasons now, and have been repelled by Kricfalusi since way before the really gross stuff came out because he crapped on basically every studio he worked at before starting his own, and it has affected my enjoyment of things he’s worked on (specifically Mighty Mouse: The New Adventures). Alternatively, I can still enjoy Joss Whedon’s work because of the good things about it, and despite having listened to a podcast covering Buffy and Angel that had an equally awful co-host. I can also mostly enjoy the old Fat Albert cartoon simply because I know that Bill Cosby’s involvement beyond acting (despite what he claimed in his doctoral thesis) was very minimal knowing that allows me to retain some joy that I DEFINITELY don’t feel with The Cosby Show (I haven’t even attempted to engage with I Spy since everything came out). So, I get both sides of the argument. Mind you, I largely disengaged with fandoms after the early 2000s, and I don’t regret the decision to enjoy things on my own terms, peaking out into conversations when the mood strikes.
Yeah I personally am not sure how to feel about Mila and Ashton. I kinda sympathize, if a really good friend of mine was accused of something horrible, I think my first instinct would be to come to their defense. It can be hard to see the worst in people you care about even in face of evidence.
I grew up with the books A series of unfortunate events and it pains me so much to see the accusations against its writer. I decided if I ever buy anything from him I'd buy second hand stuff. Still, I can't ignore what I know about him and it definitely has an impact on my appreciation of the books now. I live in France and I'm french, unfortunately the institutions here are very rigid and still reward criminals or people who should be behind bars. They are so deconnected to real life it is jarring. Polanski was still rewarded at the Cannes festival a few years ago and I feel so much shame for my country and how we treat sex offenders just because they are 'great artists'. We had more recently the same problem with Gérard Depardieu who is an extremely famous french (but now russian) actor who even our president publicly defended. I have no words.
I'm very much in the Death of the Author school. I pay attention to the audience more than to the author. People enjoy the work of Mark Wahlberg without using it as justification for his multiple felony assaults against POCs as part of his White Supremacist ideology - which he may or may not have abandoned. He certainly has avoided advocating White Supremacist views and advocating violence against Asians or Blacks since he became famous. I did enjoy the Harry Potter books as a part of teen dystopian fiction when they came out. I grew frustrated at the omission of Queer characters/story lines and Jewish characters/story lines with the first Fantastic Beasts movie. This was two years before she started liking transphobic tweets. Unlike Marky Mark, she keeps doubling down. TERFs use J.K. Rowling to justify dehumanizing people. People use Polanski and Woody Allen to excuse grooming. H.P. Lovecraft was just too much of a crank to become a poster child for White Supremacy but G.K. Chesterton is a poster boy for genteel (gentile) anti-Semitism. I think it's more important to be aware when enjoying someone's work can be used as an endorsement of their values. BTW, J.K. Rowling had to prove that Harry Potter wasn't a plagerized version of Neil Gaiman's Tim Hunter. Neil Gaiman has a number of books, tv shows, and movies with better track records of queer inclusion.
This is part of why I tend not to engage with fandoms of things I like outside of very specific instances. You get people gatekeeping, telling you what you should and shouldn't think about a particular actor/creator/musician, etc. But there are issues with (insert creative here) that are felt on a more personal level, and that should be respected. I get that a lot of anime/manga fans cannot stand the creator of Rurouni Kenshin - I do not condone the creator's actions at all. But, the anime stars one of my favorite voice actors, who is also a former Takarisienne I enjoyed watching perform, and I enjoy her work as Kenshin. I will not buy the manga, but a used DVD of the anime, or one borrowed from someone who purchased them before the creator's crimes were known? I'll watch it and enjoy it. But for other anime fans to say "you can't enjoy Kenshin in any way because the mangaka is awful" - that's what I don't like. I can enjoy something like season 1 of The Mandalorian even though it has that actress in it (I honestly don't remember her name, the one who played Cara Dune), and even enjoy her performance, while disagreeing with what she's said and how she's acted off-screen, because she's part of the whole, not the whole itself. For Rowling... I can't anymore. Which makes it difficult sometimes because my siblings are still huge Potter fans, and while they condone her words and actions, still buy new official Potter-related merch. The series for them is something they feel they can't do without, despite how Ms. Rowling acts. Said same siblings also were completely turned off of their once-favorite band, Brand New, when the news broke about the lead singer of the band abusing minors, because one of them had been through some of what the victims alleged, and had felt like the Brand New songs helped them through that particular trauma. And then to have the parasocial trust they'd put in the band and its music be betrayed due to said trauma was too much for them (if I'd listened to the band, I will admit I'd have dropped them as well, but I'd never heard them before the allegations came out, so it was easy to just not listen).
About actors collaborating with Woody Allen or Roman Polanski, I think we have the right to criticize them. Even if they don't actively say "I'm okay with everything they did", they are free to choose to collaborate with them or not, a freedom not everybody has. Adele Haenel is a french actress who is a survivor of s*xual violence committed by the director of the movie she played in when she was between 12 and 15. She has spoken about s*xual violence in the cinema field several times and left the Cesar ceremony when Roman Polanski got the "best direction" prize. She has now decided to leave the cinema world because of how present and accepted s*xual violence is in this industry. And one of main reason this is is because of the support (passive or active) from everyone (actors, directors, studios etc) and how s*xual violence (and other forms of violence) is *everywhere*, from cinema schools to award ceremonies to directors, everything is connected and made so s*xual violence can continue. So actors choosing to play in movies made by Woody Allen and Roman Polanski are actively allowing that violence to continue because these directors know that they have nothing to fear. It's a well oiled machine that needs to be stopped. And I think taking down these systems go hand in hand with building new ones.
Not 100% relevant but this tied to something that happened to me today. I was volunteering at my local community theater and they were putting on a production of Puffs by Matt Cox, a satirical play that follows background characters throughout the 7 Harry Potter books. I saw the play years ago when the off-Broadway original production was professionally shot and played on movie screens in 2018. When I saw it back then, I absolutely adored it. As a massive Potter fan, I laughed at every joke and got every reference. Since 2020 I've refused to engage with the Potter property at all given JKR's TERFdom but I wanted to support personal friends who were putting on this production. I really had trouble enjoying the show today. The production quality was fantastic, the direction/acting/sound/costumes/effects were all perfect, it was a great show. Unfortunately what was running through my head while sitting in the audience was that a group of my friends had languished for months putting together this fantastic project but none of them could see the invisible man in the middle of the stage kicking a dog. I will never discuss these things with anyone who was in the physical production. When I saw them after the show, I talked about all of the fantastic things they did, the sets and costumes and how much I loved to see them having fun. A couple weeks ago I spoke with a producer on the show who was responsible for picking it and they were aware of the JKR issues but they thought that the show was "removed enough to be safe." It is removed enough to not draw JKR's ire but it is not a show that parodies HP because it thinks the world/author is bad, it is made out of love and that absolutely carries. The audience is full of people wearing HP merch and you hear whispers of people quoting movie lines and pointing out obscure book references. An OK parody might be Dimension 20's Misfits and Magic which pretty frequently takes a moment to explicitly say "Fuck TERFs" even though you can still sometimes tell that they love the opportunity to RP in the HP world even tangentially. Not really sure where I was going with this, I just had a lot of feelings today and then you dropped this video, seemed like the best place to leave this.
Growing up is realising that, although it was important to our childhood, Harry Potter was never the masterpiece of fiction we all thought it was and there are much better written magical fantasies out there to enjoy.
It is perhaps worth noting that as with everything, there is always going to be a certain number of people who legitimately are not aware of any given figure's actions, such as the example of JK Rowling given in the video - even if they're not people who are entirely offline. Personally, despite being a reader in general, I tend not to follow *anything* most of the authors I read say outside of their books, unless I'm very deliberately trying to catch up with all of their stories (and even then, this is mostly interviews and signing events where they discuss themes and such of their books) This is for the simple reason of spoiler avoidance - I'm not as fast a reader as I'd like to be, and I'm almost always well behind an author's published works, and authors regularly drop spoilers for their own books. I don't want to know that a major character is going to Book 8 of a series until I'm reading Book 8 and see that character in that situation. I'm not a Harry Potter fan. I liked the books as a little kid, but I'd grown out of the series before it even finished - I read book 7 once and kinda just skimmed it. But if I was, I'd not be seeing what JK Rowling posts because of that policy. I'd only be exposed to it through channels like yours, which I'm only aware of because I'm in an internet community with a lot of trans members and started reading up on the political issues surrounding the acceptance of transgender people. (That got me to Jessie Gender, who mentioned a podcast that was starting a run through of Babylon 5, a series I've been quite fond of for some time now, and that's how I got here). Granted, yes, I'm less online than many people these days. UA-cam and Twitch are about the only social media platforms I make use of - stuff like Facebook and Twitter always made no sense to me, even before shit like Facebook selling user data to groups like Cambridge Analytica and Elon Musk turning Twitter into nazi-bot hell. Furthermore, there's always the "Ten Thousand" effect. There's an XKCD comic (#1053) that points out that any given fact that "everyone knows" is not something people know at birth. If you assume that everyone encounters that by age 30, look at the US birth rate, there's about 10 000 people learning that thing any given day. The comic celebrates this learning, focusing on the random cool stuff like learning what Diet Coke and Mentos does...but yeah, sadly not all of these "everyone knows" things are good things to be celebrated. The fact that JK Rowling is an outspoken transphobe is one of them.
The problem with any creative writing is that they have an innate point of view. You have to have it even in purely descriptive works. Otherwise there's no point to it. There are a lot of novels and literary series that I've read that made me so unhappy even angry at the way the story progressed. For me Harry Potter hit that bump in the Half-Blood Prince and the 1st part of the Deathly Hollows. By the time it got to Deathly Hollows, I was unhappy and angry with writing. You could tell she wanted this story finished - not ended - finished. She closed doors and killed off most loose ends. She finished the series. And hated her, for doing so. We all get that was when we fall in love with characters, story worlds and so on. We're invested in the story and that's in a way good. It keeps people arguing about Lord of the Rings, Dr. Who forty years later. Don't you think that's a good thing?
3:55 I'd be interested in seeing a Top 5 videos your most proud of at the end of the year, maybe coupled with how/if your thoughts on the topics have evolved.
I like the part about how many folks know being a factor. Like I don't vibe with R Kelly fans, but no one is surprised as to the why in that situation. My hatred for David O Russell, however, is something folks might not be as familiar with
I feel like with that list of "have you heard of?" recommendations that Caelan Conrad just felt a disturbance in the force and they got startled out of a nap somewhere in Canada lol
If you really want to watch something but don't want to support individuals involved, you can always buy second hand dvds or even sail the high seas of the internet.
Or do research into seeing if giving them financial support is actually that bad? People can say bad stuff online but still have a positive influence in the world. I'm not a fan of what JKR has said but she donates a portion of her profits to her charity anyway which helps children in need. IF the individual is just a tool through and through then yes Library's are fantastic. I'm a cheapskate anyway and already read books from a library.
@@Logicalleaping she has also stated that any money she makes she will use to actively campaign against trans people. So it doesnt matter what good she does do, if she is using her money she gets from people consuming her stuff to threaten mine and other trans people's lives then I'm going to have a harsh outlook on the matter.
Some very good thoughts here! I dunno about the notion that there should be more leeway given to collaboration projects like movies but that it's more 'okay' to hardline with authors. While I get that it's easier to cleanly associate work with an artist/creator whose art form allows them full creative control--this does also normalize being harsher towards creatives/artists who have more independence in their work, and, in a way, punishes creative independence. Happens with authors and musicians, it seems. For me, I think nurturing creative independence is a good thing, so I'm always a bit put off by this approach to activism. A side effect of it is to disregard artistic/creative labor while giving privileges to industrialized and corporate versions. Tbh, by and large, I just don't see that rallying against creative works and their creators does anything other than stifle more productive action and alienate the uninvolved. Which comes back to your point of thinking more on what is the goal, how do we accomplish the goal. That's just my own line though, I suppose.
Related to this, I think there's been a tendency lately where, when people just don't like something for personal reasons, they feel like they need to reach for a "valid" moral reason to dislike it to justify their opinion. You're totally right that everyone has their Icks but what's wild is seeing people apply them unevenly to explain why they don't like something as if it's unique to that thing. "I won't play this video game because I know the studio has a terrible crunch culture that's harming workers" is an absolutely valid stance! But then that same person will play video games they care about more from other studios doing the exact same. Like either be consistent or admit that it's just not something you like enough in the first place to violate your principles for.
My rules for problematic creators are: If you can watch/listen/read something and not think about what the creator has done, then go ahead and watch it. If someone gives you information about a creator that you can't ignore (assuming it's true) then don't get mad at the person who told you. If you can't watch/listen/read something without thinking about what the creator has done, then don't watch/listen/read it. You can tell other people why you won't watch/listen/read it, but other people get to make their own decisions about what they can and can't tolerate. None of these rules are inflexible because, in reality, it can get complicated. I remember a conflict over a party where the hosts were playing Michael Jackson's music and some guests objected. Some people thought the hosts had a right to play whatever they wanted and the guests who objected should leave. Other people thought the hosts should stop playing the music when some guests were upset by it. Just acting on our personal tolerances can affect other people, too, so it's not so as easy as "you do what you want and I do what I want."
Many, many good points! I did not know that about Ed Asner. That's horrible!!! The moment you said misinformation, I thought of James Somerton (I'm a former fan)
I have to admit that I am a big Harry Potter fan. I started reading the books after the first movie came out and my niece and nephew dragged me to it. Admittedly the biggest draw at that time for me was the fact that Allen Rickman was in it and I am a big fan of his but, I found that it was a good movie and even better on second viewing after I had read the books. I have to admit that I do still love the Harry Potter books and movies and I know it’s the fantasy behind it, I am a big fantasy fan but that being said, I am no longer a J. K. Rowling fan. The funny thing is I never followed her on anything and always had a funny feeling about her. I’m not going to say that I sensed what she was like because I didn’t but it was something I didn’t like about her and I thought it was probably because she resembled an aunt of mine who is a terrible Karen and that is probably why however, although I will watch the movies and then join them and I will read the books and enjoy them if J. K. Rowling showed up at my door, I would slam it in her face. I do not agree with anything she stands for and I actually cringe at the fact that she wrote these books even though if you look back the ideas of the books on this original as people think she took them from other places which is normal so I won’t hold that against her but I think she’s a horrible human being!
Something I would like to add to is I do belong to some Harry Potter groups but, I’m getting really fed up with the amount of people that actually sticks up for her and try to say that she didn’t say the crap that she did when it is out there for everyone to see. I was late to learn about it but when I did I realized it was easy to find. There are some people like me who are fans of Harry Potter but don’t like the way she’s behaving so they aren’t all sticking up for her but the sad truth is a good many probably more than half hour and that sickens me
@@robertaewing5468 Okay as someone who isn't to into the social sphere all the JKR stuff happened on I'd like to know what she's done other than some Transphobic tweets? Having opinions that not all agree with doesn't make you a bad person. In fact I'd say she's one of the better 'rich' people out there with donating some of her earning to charity (Children in need). Now while I don't think that makes being transphobic right I'd say its enough to move on and accept the good the person does. Why is it that we Crucify someone for doing one thing the CURRENT social world disagrees with. The inherent Transphobic remarks she makes are simply words its the people who use her words as just cause for violence against such people. its like one person saying I don't like green crayons and a group of people taking it to mean to destroy all green crayons. I dunno its hard. At the end of the day I'm capable of taking her art without looking at the artist. Could be wrong and maybe JKR has actually done something to warrant this insane hate but quite frankly seems like an over reaction the same kind that DR. WHO 'fans' make with Dr. WHO going 'woke'.
You were right she is voicing her opinion and everybody’s entitled to it the problem is that she is supporting groups that are doing horrible things to specifically trans people and she is building up the heat the best she can with in her groups so everyone assumes that if you have ever read one of her books Which came out long before she started this nonsense but You too are anti-trans and I have actually been verbally attacked by people who are supposedly against her but personally I think they’re just trying to look like they are not anti-trans themselves and probably are. But that latter part is beside the point I would just suggest finding videos on UA-cam put out by jammy dodger, this is a trans guy who has had some things to say about why her actions have caused for the trans community and it’s from him and people like him that I have learned what is going on. Like I said I have no idea why but I never followed her on any social media it could just be because I’m not on the lotto basically come on say hi to friends on Facebook a good number of which are friends that I actually know and then his stem down into friends of the arts in friends of nursing so forth but I never followed her and I actually never Heard until about a year ago about her views. She is one of the people who are saying things like trans people are out to hurt women but seriously check out Jamie on jammy dodger and you’ll get a good idea but she’s doing. Also thank you for replying you have said things on here that I have tried so much to say to people and I am not good with wording, not at all I Have even tried to write a children’s book but I’m terrible with words and I can’t get it out lol
Yeah, I usually reserve my ire for the folks at the top of the food chain, like JKR, or whole companies like Ubisoft or Blizzard (who are rotten from the top down). I may express that feeling in the hope folks will understand or be aware that it can be a problem for many and it may be worth considering, particularly if you are a content creator, or culture commentator. If I get strong pushback, then I just block and move on, cuz they aren't worth my time. I get really worked up about some of these things, and really just had to start forcing myself to keep my mouth shut about it.
@@АлинаКостылева-ф2ч In the case of someone like (or equally bad as) JKR, just seeing her IP is distressing, so even simply not paying for it is a no go, not to mention such people's ideology often seep into their works. There are some games or movies I could enjoy if I could get them for free, tho. On a case by case basis, of course.
A beautiful plea for moderation! Thank you. I personally try hard to appreciate a work for its own merits, divorced from its association with troublesome creator rumours. The list of creatives we 'know' to be awful people is undoubtedly incomplete and if we knew the truth, we'd have to burn all the paintings in the galleries, all the books in libraries, stop listening to any music and never watch a programme again. Should we do that, to be on the safe side? No; that would create a bleaker world than the people we disapprove of want to make! So, as adults who can compartmentalise, we should: enjoy Harry Potter, despite knowing the author's ugly stance; delight in Picasso's weird and wonderful paintings, regardless of the fact he was an atrocious misogynist; thrill to The Wall of Sound songs without fearing the Spector of a murderer; and so on and on and on.
Firstly... you have ratties? I approve, very much. Rats are wonderful pets! Secondly - I think there are things that can't be ethically watched, but not because of how a specific individual is outside of that project, rather, the production itself was produced unethically. Such things happening are why certain disclaimers are needed in productions depicting specific adult activities, for example (and my goodness is it hard to circle around the specific topic in a way that won't get flagged by auto censorship on UA-cam). Another consideration in why jumping down someone's throat isn't really acceptable - you have no idea if a person you're talking to online is mentally old enough to understand the ramifications of supporting works made by problematic creators - just because someone says they're in their 20s or 30s, it doesn't mean they actually are, or that they have a level of reasoning capable of recognizing problematic themes. Tread carefully, you could be conversing with someone who isn't capable of a level of ethics that you might want to hold someone to, but still very much capable of conversing in otherwise mature ways.
Are snuff films depicting irl violence ethical to consume? How about films with older racist stereotypes like Peter Pan's depictions of native Americans? What about films produced by Harvey W What about films that star Mel Gibson What about films that exploited the actors like the Shining with how Shelly Duval was mistreated by director Kubrick?
@@Thed538dhsk My failure to cite other examples does not constitute approval of the examples you've given, if that was what you were getting at with your comment. I was choosing one specific example. I am one person, I am not an expert, I cannot possibly cover every possibility in a single comment, nor is it reasonable to expect that someone should spend 12+ hours writing a UA-cam comment. If you are looking for that sort of exceptionally long-form writing on a subject, you will most likely not find it on UA-cam. I suggest, if you want to read that kind of thing, your search is better directed towards Tumblr or Blogger.
Feel this strong, misinformation is a bitch and I fully admit I've fallen victim to it and spread it without intending to, but that's why I've just tried to make more of an effort to seek primary sources for stuff
This is really a solid video, but I will point out that toxic fandom as a thing, makes Bill Maher's points about fandom as a part of society valid. These are books and TV shows that people love and adore, but if they were all to vanish tomorrow, we as a species could survive and need none of it, or find something new to enjoy. What I am not always 100% a fan of is this idea that we need these pieces of media like food. It to far and makes a point that toxic fandom is ridicuous in the first place. As a side note, my fandom Doctor Who, I can smell when people are not going to enjoy something a mile away and watching them gripe all over the internet about it, does make me laugh, I'll be honest. The same happens in other fandoms as well. I'm in the middle when it comes to this topic. I think it is totally wrong, but also kind of funny. Dave's stand-up bit on OJ also plays into what you're speaking on here.
It really depends on how much i like the "bad" person and/or their work. I keep hearing about yet another person I'm a fan of doing something terrible and i feel like i can't enjoy their stuff anymore
every time someone talks about harry potter I change the topic to discworld. I just can't enjoy even my good memories of Harry Potter because of how horrible JK has been. There was a time when I could say 'wow she's horrible, I won't spent money on official stuff but I'll still enjoy the fandom' but that time has long since passed. But I also know a ton of people don't pay attention to how she acts and just think 'wow big pop culture thing people like, referencing it will boost attention!' (ex a lot of rescues around me use hp as name themes for litters of kittens they catch off the street, or artists who make hp stuff just cos they know it will get them money and not necessarily because they're deeply invested). But I can't, and I will try to redirect people's attention whenever I can cos she's just so bad. But I also try not to shame them unless they actively start saying they support her current behavior or that they align with her. Then all bets are off cos they've proven they are a horrible person. But most people really don't know and aren't that deep into it. Or have even been purposefully staying away because they know tangentially she's been horrible but don't want their joy ruined. So for those, I redirect rather than shut down. and since I heard the algorithm prefers longer comments, I'll make mine longer by mentioning Black Panther. The actress who plays Shuri went full hardcore anti vaxer in 2020 and I saw a lot of people say they couldn't enjoy Black Panther now because of her. For me, I could reason that she hadn't done that yet when Black Panther was made so it would still be possible to enjoy that movie, but Black Panther 2 was much harder to appreciate just from that alone because she hurt people with her actions. But a lot of people I talked to couldn't look at anything she was in the same way again. But thankfully no one seemed to say 'no one is allowed to enjoy Black Panther because of her!' in my circle, so at least there's that.
Let's hear it for nuance!!! I love all of what you said in this video, but in particular the pieces about "what is your goal?" and "is this claim substantiated?" In an extreme example, so many classic movies were produced by Harvey Weinstein, do you really think never watching a Weinstein movie agian is going to have any affect on his life? Maybe if everyone stopped watching his movies all at once it would make a difference, but that is not a realistic goal. A better approach is to VOTE and make sure lawmakers, prosecutors, judges, etc. are people who will hold rich assholes accountable for their actions. In terms of unsubstantiated claims, I had a friend once tell me that a Jewish actress that I admired was an anti-vaxxer, and I low-key believed it for years until I looked it up and found that people were taking something she said in an interview wildly out of context and that she was definitely pro-vaccines. I'm working on getting better at checking sources, and wish it was more common for sure.
This is really interesting too when thinking about the Booktube and Booktok community. There's a few that I've been like ok I think this book is terrible but like, if someone else liked it, then they should read what they like cause my opinion isn't the end all be all and it's not a personal failure of someone if they read and liked something that didn't work for me. But ooof. It was really bad on Booktok and I saw several creators that had to really police their comments or just shut them off entirely because they (people in fandom) just couldn't handle someone saying that they didn't get why the book was so popular.
Yeah, the webcomic Boyfriends has been attacked like this for a while now, but has recently picked up and being spread around more enthusiastically. I get so frustrated bc its always the same things. They either liked art or made art that was supposedly nsfw art of a character that a minor and theres never any source let alone what fandom
My friend and her partner are extremely passionate about HP and they think that I am too. I certainly used to be. It'll always have a place in my heart, but I can't bring myself to engage with new HP content at all, especially the HL game (because there are other ick things about that game besides JK). But my friend keeps wanting me to come over to her house and check out HL and it's almost all she talks about too. I've told her that I'm boycotting JK. She didn't even ask why, she didn't react at all to that info (I don't think she knows about JK and I'm not sure she would care too much because she doesn't know any trans people, I'm not even sure she knows what trans is, plus she's very apolitical and has never had any social media). I don't have the heart to be *that* person who poops on her hobby.
I feel like fandom in general is in a really weird place these days. It used to be "toxic fandom" just referred bigots, people who were very much "bad people." And, obviously, those folks are still around (and louder than ever). But now we've also got a lot of toxicity coming from people who are at least *trying* to be "good people." I guess you could say people can be assholes regardless of their moral or ethical justifications, but I dunno... that kind of feels reductive.
I still listen to Harry Potter audiobooks I bought way before Rowling came out as a TERF. I still love The Sandman, Coraline and American Gods tv show despite the accusations against Gaiman (altho tbh there's no way of verifying if they're even accurate, so I'm defo not ready to "cancel" him). It's ok. In Rowling's case she is so hateful I would never pay her money for her work anymore but also the books came out a long time ago.
I love your idea of building something better. I know there have to be some alternatives to HP that haven't been shut down, I just picked up a copy of Blood at the Root, which has an African American focus on a college for wizards but my student base is primarily Latino/Hispanic and I would like for them to see themselves as exceptional/heroes where possible. Any suggestions?
I think it’s just a matter of giving the same energy back to conservatives who cancel things with queer folk in stories, or on the teams that create anything. Look at Dragon Age: The Veilguard. That game is constantly attacked for having a trans dev and inclusive character creator to the point where when a legitimate criticism comes along it just becomes a horrible dogpile where a lot of the transphobic people start planting seeds like, “that’s the final straw for me, I’ll buy it in a bargain bin.”
pausing and assessing is a really undervalued skill in the 21st century.
It really is
Honestly burying this message in all of media for the last decade, or longer even was not the way to do this.
I think people underestimate the ability of people. That if you're up front and honest about what's going on and the stakes, there might be a moment of turbulence, but eventually most people will come to terms and understand.
😐 like being lied to for our entire lives isn't going to fix whatever it is that needs fixing because now their brains are a goddamn mess and can't tell up from down.
Because some people you're discussing are impatient enough that if they don't get a response fast enough, then they believe they won the debate. There's no time to pause and assess, you need to have your words ready on the go.
I still remember a lengthy twitter argument I had with a fanboy who seriously thought shows should hire a 'committee of fans' to offer feedback on scripts. Nothing I highlighted about the financial, legal and logistical nightmare, to say nothing of how getting a broad fandom consensus is nigh-impossible and such a group could be exploited by a toxic minority, penetrated his skull.
I don't think you can find a group of people less sure of what they want from any given franchise than the fanbase of that franchise. Recipe for disaster, not even factoring in how much massive franchises *ALREADY* try to cater to what the fanbase wants to usually mixed results.
@@cfsfilms5091 Two things are supposed to exist simultaneously - (insert show here) is both so badly run and incompetent they need fan help, yet also professional and well run enough to be able to take and integrate their suggestions on a huge production at the drop of a hat. Budgets, deadlines and schedules apparently can just be moved around like nothing.
Point him at Heroes S3, which explicitly listened to the fans, leading to several characters and plot threads flip flopping constantly throughout the season. Or Attack of the Cybermen, from when Ian Levine was at his most influential within the Doctor Who production, which gets so bogged down in continuity as to be painful at times.
Fans can make some wonderful fanworks (some fanfic is genuinely delightful), and some wonderful 'inspired by' works (the Animon Story TTRPG is this for 'kids and monsters' media but especially the Digimon anime; Undertale for Earthbound; less directly, the indie obsession with Metroidvania basically exists due to people loving Symphony of the Night and Super Metroid)
They can also - In the singular - make good works within the franchise they're fans of when they are the creative lead and they have experience outside of fandom, provided they're able to put their general writing (or whatever) hat on when making it (There has never been a point in the 21st century that Doctor Who hasn't had a fan as the creative lead - First RTD, then Moffat, then Chibnall, and now RTD again.)
But creatives should never _listen_ to fans.
@@Stephen-Fox Individual fans or specific groups of fans can certainly make good work, both official and unofficial! Doctor Who as you've mentioned has basically only ever had fans of the series on the writing team because it's kinda hard to find someone in the UK who'd be interested in the job but isn't a fan. But it's very important to have a specific vision for a project, which is the kind of cohesion a large fanbase just is not capable of. The only thing large groups of fans tend to agree on is "I want this to feel like it did before because I already like what it did before," and that is not a good way to watch or produce media.
Also worth noting that statistically most of the people in a fanbase who have ideas for how things should go are not writers, and a large amount I've seen online have zero consideration how hard it actually is to make things work. This is sorta reiterating the first bit; in order to do good work you kind of have to have a solid idea of what you're trying to do, instead of a nebulous and contradictory ball of ideas that haven't really been given serious consideration.
@@SavageBroadcast Dunning Kruger effect at its finest right there! A good of the people making these types of arguments genuinely don't seem to know very much about how TV production actually works, but they either don't care or think they already understand.
Good life advice: Read more Discworld
Maybe don't start with the first book, though.
@@Netherflywhy not? (I'm starting with hogfather btw).
Mainly because it's a bit more "traditional" fantasy satire than later Discworld stories are, so while it's _funny_, it lacks some of the depth and nuance we've come to adore Sir Terry for. You know, like how people enjoy A New Hope, but generally agree The Empire Strikes Back is the better Star Wars movie?
@@Netherflywhich Discworld book would you recommend to start with?
@@gullyfeather4330 I started at the beginning ("Colour of Magic") and still got hooked, but "Guards, Guards!" is where the series really hits its stride. It's also the book that introduces the Watch and my beloved Sam Vimes.
When it comes up I try to stick to "I" statements. "I won't watch that because...." As an an example. I haven't watched any Tom Cruise films for a decade now *because* of the Scientology connection and some of the things that came to light when he split with Katie Holmes. I also don't tell people they shouldn't see those films. I just vote with my wallet and watch something else.
Joss Whedon is the big one for me. Buffy was one of my favourite shows ever as a teen, I deeply loved Firefly and have enjoyed other works of his but there are definitely some problematic elements in them looking back and knowing what a jerk he is has really made it hard to enjoy that stuff as completely. That said I can't suddenly pretend that those shows weren't important to me and that I don't still have warm but complicated feelings for them.
I'm not sure what problems you're referring to but maybe they're a product of their times, more than anything directly because it's Whedon and the way he turned out. I say this not to defend Whedon but as someone who is also a huge fan of his work (not the man himself these days), has seen Buffy, Angel and Firefly many times. I don't recall anything that I would seriously call a problem that is down to him.
Finding out the reality about him was also a big one for me. I even somewhat defended him when the initial allegations from Ray Fisher surfaced because they were completely baseless. I saw it more as Fisher not personally liking Whedon or the way he worked, along with Fisher sticking up for his friend Snyder. It was only when the Charisma Carpenter stuff emerged later that the tables turned against him for me.
However, while I may be against Whedon, I can personally still enjoy his work. It would be harder if he was an actor but we don't get to see him on screen so it makes it easier. Even as writer, creator and sometime director, I can split him away enough that I can still enjoy the work as that work is a huge ensemble effort. If anyone tried to tell me I'm 'bad' for enjoying it, my words to them wouldn't be polite. 🙂
@Elwaves2925: well there's Joss's "It's's fine that I hit on girls on staff because no one that hot would give me the time of day before I was famous," attitude. And yes, he actually said that
Yeah, that one hurts. It was also pretty disheartening when the guy who made Rurouni Kenshin turned out to be a pedophile. It's one thing to know stuff like that before you consume a given piece of media, but when you learn it *after* falling in love with something... it's a gut punch, every time.
Buffy is that one girl for me, the one I won't quit. It's still tainted by him though, and it's hard to separate it completely, but since a show is such a collective effort it's easier.
@@SuperEkkorn I feel the same way about Firefly. It's such a part of me. I thought I felt that way about HP, but it's been surprisingly easy to let that go.
Honestly I feel like this issue of "someone who worked on this thing is BAD, so don't watch it or you're BAD too" is a huge part of the reason why there's such a backlash to people trying to raise awareness of these kinds of problems. Because it's very easy to spin this into "the woke mob says you're not allowed to have fun anymore," when it's a lot more complicated and usually subjective than that. Up is one of my favorite movies of all time, if someone came up to me and tried to say I was a bad person for still watching it because the lead actor was a 9/11 truther I would get angry and defensive. If that person instead just explained their discomfort with watching it, I would feel like they're missing out on a great movie, but I would understand and respect their problem with it, even though it doesn't bother me nearly as much.
I dunno, I just think this particular attitude of "you're not allowed to like this thing anymore because someone on the crew bad" isn't productive in a majority of cases, you do have some exceptions (I do think being a fan of and buying new Harry Potter stuff now is pretty indefensible, but it's very rare you get cases where a property is synonymous with a single person like that), but even there I think some of the way that whole 'debate' was handled handed the culture war creeps an incredibly useful bit of propaganda. To a lot of people it became less about the harm the creator was doing and more about the perception that the crowd on the internet was trying to police what it's okay to like, and why would you listen to someone doing something that seems so unreasonable?
Part of me wonders if that's part of how there's still people trying the "oh she's not really transphobic" line, like there's still some refusing to listen because it got so wrapped up in personal relationships to the text.
I really liked your nuanced approach to this topic, but then you used Harry Potter as an anti example. I like Harry Potter, leave me alone 😂
Don't you mean it's the anti woke mob that's saying you can't have fun anymore pro woke people haven't really argued that much with people and are just fed up with obnoxious people
100% agree I'm so fed up and tired of people blaming woke ideology or getting angry at black people or gay people or woman on screen when it's not those peoples fault or even ideologues fault ,in reality it's all subjective and no opinion is the correct one most of the time that is also people need to chill out instead of writing/typing and thinking of angry or critical responses all the time
Hell I like the star wars acolyte show and so do many star wars lore channels despite its flaws sure you may not like the show but you need too remember many people do regardless of your opinion or if your trying too fact check me but please for the of God don't try to convince people their wrong just cause they like something you don't like
Definitely agree, it's fine to take objection to a certain creator and their work because of their prior actions, but using said actions to shame people for liking their work or just generally make them uncomfortable accomplishes nothing aside from making you look like the guy from the Onion article who gets a rush from telling people that John Lennon beat his wife
@@Anna-BThe Harry Potter stories themselves are rife with racism, ableism and fat phobia, so I'm going to continue judging people who keep insisting how much they like them.
It's not just that Roling thinks I should die. The stories themselves are also bad.
I completely agree. Unfortunately, the echo chambers of the internet and the dopamine hits that they bring make it all too easy to shift from a reasonable position into a moral panic at ludicrous speed. You have to be very vigilant to keep from letting yourself slip from "I don't want to support that person because of xyz" down into "no one should have ever supported them and if you're not with me, you're against me!".
I really appreciate the redirection strategy as an educator. It's something that good teachers out there should be trained to do when it comes to promoting an interest in wide reading. And it works for improving discourse as you say.
Can we stop calling haters as fans or part of a fandom. They are literally by definition not fans.
"Haters," yes; however I think the term is thrown around a bit too much. People who have criticism of something get labelled as a "hater" by those who just don't want to hear any of it. Criticism isn't a bad thing, though it's when that evolves into hate, which evolves into the very reason to continue interacting with the fandom, that's where the problem arises.
It's the same as "toxic" fans, who dogpile on people with criticisms, whether they are valid or otherwise, and attempt to silence them as simply "haters." If you can praise as well as criticise, you are not a "hater" but blind praise is just as unhealthy as blind criticism.
Conversations would be really dull if they were just people agreeing with absolutely everything everybody is saying.
My philosophy has always been "We all choose our own battles. I respect that you have chosen your battles. Please respect I may not choose the same battles."
I remember when the Hazbin Hotel pilot first came out, someone in an online group I was in started shouting at people about how nobody should ever in any way support anything Vivienne Medrano has worked on, citing some Tumblr post that was a list of every "problematic" thing she had ever done basically since she was a teenager. I don't really care for Hazbin Hotel and haven't watched anything beyond trying out the pilot, but decided to look up the worst accusation on the list and it was the absolutely most uncharitable interpretation/phrasing of what actually happened, in a way that imo had to be deliberate rather than a misinterpretation.
The person in the group was a very progressive person in general, but there were more instances of them attacking people over supporting/not condemning enough some media property where they believed a person involved did something morally wrong, sometimes to the point where it felt more like bullying or harassing. I wonder with people like that how much they really believe that lashing out at other people over watching a show or whatever is actually having a positive effect, and how much they just like the rush that comes from feeling like they are morally justified in attacking someone.
I think people can be really blinded to what these sorts of backlashes can amount to because they're convinced they're doing it for a noble reason and punishing a Bad Person. It's an easy way to ignore/excuse bullying and harassment, as well as insulate yourself from any criticism of your behavior that might pull you back down to reassess what it is you're actually doing. Because you're trying to take down a "villain" and anyone trying to stop you is just allowing evil to keep happening, right?
It really doesn't help that in online spaces when these things get going, it becomes a mob mentality that pulls other people along, after all if everyone is mad about something it must be a real problem, right? Very easy to assume you don't need to fact check something in that situation because surely someone in the group did it already.
congrats on 80k subscribers, Vera!
The redirecting this is such a good idea imo. I'm currently making a list of series to give to my cousin who's cutrently reading HP for the first time and loving it. I think she'd love Equal Rites.
There are so many good stories from the Discworld series. Mort was always a favourite of mine but I love the character of Death, so there is bias there. Same goes for Death in the Sandman series where she's my favourite there. That's also highly recommended if they're okay with graphic novels.
@@Elwaves2925 I've thought of giving her Neil Gaiman books but she always was kinda easily scared, so maybe I should hold off for now. They're really nice books though.
Caean Conrad just made a video detailing all the previous works that JK has borrowed from.
@@dandelion_16 That's fair, you didn't say her age (don't need to) so she could have been anywhere. If she's young it might be a bit much, so one for when she's older.
I haven’t read the book for The Worst Witch but it’s been adapted to a few TV shows, several of which are on Prime and the most recent of which is on Netflix. They’re very, very similar to the early Harry Potter books in tone, setting, and characters. She’d probably really enjoy that, too. I need to check out Equal Rites, though. That one is completely new to me.
The entitlement from toxic fandoms (of any franchise) is killing so much of the joy of being a fan. Like I'm sorry, but you watching a show, or buying the bluray or whatever merch it makes, doesn't entitle you to either a say on the show or an audience with whoever's in charge. Creators don't 'owe' you: That's not how the consumer-product relationship works, and it shouldn't be how critical discussions work. You wanna be in that room and running things - start creating and earn the right to be there.
I disagree a little bit. With the commodification of art, customers or consumers are entitled to expect the art or product to be quality especially with greedy corporations trying to squeeze more $ from these consumers/customers
@@Thed538dhsk There's a difference between criticizing for quality, and acting like you should be allowed to control the product, thereby diminishing creative freedom.
Avatar The Last Airbender fandom... JFC!
Nuance is important. We all should pause before passing judgment.
Also, our own red lines are valid for us, not for everyone.
P.S. I nearly cry whenever you say "you are beautiful, you are valid, you are loved".
I also get such massive feels from being told I am beautiful, valid and loved. It's not something I consciously doubt, but being told, in such a sincere way, is really meaningful. Thank you, Vera!
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
― Buckminster Fuller
One thing I think a lot of people don't realize is how dangerously addictive righteous outrage online can be. It's a multi-layered high, the adrenaline surge combined with the feeling of fighting in what you know is a correct cause, now with the added social media layer of accolades from others (or a sense of virtuous martyrdom if you don't get that). It sinks its hooks in hard, and the last thing you're inclined to do when surfing that kind of moral elevation is question whether or not what you're doing is actually good. After all, the cause is just, and you feel righteous doing it, so it must be good, right? (I actually consider myself fortunate in that my worsening chronic fatigue took the denial out of my hands before things like Twitter really took off, because you can only get so many nasty post-adrenaline comedown shakes before you start noticing there's an issue there. It's not much of a silver lining for a miserable condition, but I would have been a Twitter nightmare, so it's something.)
Worse, even if someone is starting to observe that all the online fighting isn't great for them personally, conflating the actions they're undertaking with the cause itself can result in people feeling like they're doubting that cause if they start questioning "Should I maybe not participate in public harassment of someone for liking the wrong show/the gross pairing/the bad character/the wrong top-bottom configuration of the good pairing*?". Entire communities of people have sold themselves on the idea that social justice activism in fandom requires these things and doubting that is failing the effort. It's a fair bit depressing.
* Not a hypothetical. Sherlock fandom was intensely fucked up, and 221B Con in 2015 was run by assholes who permitted in-person harassment of panelists. Probably not that many people still remember, but it's a grudge I'm willing to hold.
I hate that one of the only people who has talked about 221b con is herself an anti who went out of her way to protect the names of the bullies.
The icks and what is crossing the line for each individual really shows in fanfiction. There’s a lot of people who believe that if you write fanfiction about dark themes, or inmoral things, or sometimes just about non-canon ships, then you’re a terrible person and obviously endorse that kind of thing in real life too. There have been smears campaigns and doxxing people just because of the kind of fics/fanarts they made, which is insane.
The “don’t like, don’t read/watch/interact” is being lost in today’s internet. Everything has to be called out because x person is obviously terrible and no one should like them or their work, even if the only thing they did was to write or draw a vent piece of their fav ship. Most people also seem to have lost the reading comprehension and the ability to separate fiction from reality, as if you write about murder then you suddenly are going to kill people in real life too.
Luckily that seems more prominent in sites that I don’t use anymore, so I avoid all the drama that is not important and doesn’t have a real weight in real life.
Thanks for your videos, they’re always so interesting ❤❤❤
The "anti" fandom discourse was absolutely the reason why the Hazbin storyboard artist got attacked. It's the "you're fetishizing rape" people when he said in that interview "I'm sorry you walked into my scene and saw something you didn't want to see, but that's not my problem." It's the exact same anti discourse in fanfiction.
@@jackskellingtonsora Oh, yeah, I thought about it after posting the comment, but it was already long enough xd But it is indeed the same sentiment, which it sucks tbh
Came here to talk about this exact thing, especially as someone who loves darkfic and has since I was 12 years old. It’s exhausting being told I’m an abuse apologist for wanting to read about fictional content while literally being worried about being taken advantage of bc of my inability to drive. And that’s not even touching how many abuse survivors I’ve met and am friends with on these dark ships. Utterly frustrating dealing with fancops tbh.
Not most people but you're right.
With the “checking your sources” bit, I have a personal account for a fandom I was in a few years ago. In the story which was set in Japan and made in Japan, we got the name of a character revealed in a chapter that we hadn’t known for a while as Maruta Shiga. Now to English speakers is name is as innocuous as any other Japanese name. But in the fandom we soon heard that apparently the series had stopped being published in China because of some outcry of the name choice. I didn’t know the specifics, but for a little while a lot of the fandom, myself included, decided that if it was going to be banned in the entirety of China, there was probably a good reason for it.
But I soon did a bit of research into the specifics. And what I found was that Maruta Shiga referenced Unit 731 and the man who ran it, Shiro Ishii. It was referencing the terrible crimes Shiro Ishii and Unit 731 committed during WWII against Chinese people. It is truly one of the worst parts of history I have ever learned about and really makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about it. So I thought I understood then why there had been outcry like this from China. But then when you look to the context in the story, this man named Maruta Shiga, he was an evil scientist who experimented on people and is truly perhaps the most evil person in the entire series. From what I saw, the name was chosen to try and make it clear what a truly abhorrent character this is. And then the backlash confused me, honestly it seemed like a rather good thing to educate people on this part of history that people may like to hush up. But by the time I realised that, the author had received enough pressure that he changed the characters name to Kyudai Garaki.
My Hero Academia?
@@jonathandear4914 Yeah, not as much of a fan now, but was very into the fandom when that controversy was happening a few years ago.
@@yusaki8064 The story is now in its epilogue, so if you ever feel like returning to the series best to keep you distance from the fandom as you have been for a while now.
best way to experience the story for now
@@jonathandear4914 Oh, I’m still reading. Just not really in the fandom. Like in the same way I watch Star Wars. I have watched 9 of the films. But I don’t engage with the Star Wars fandom and don’t intend to. I’m as casual watcher of Star Wars and a casual reader of MHA.
I am a drag fan. I enjoy Drag Race, I subscribe to WOW, I go to shows, etc. I am not under the delusion that it is 100% a drag competition and more like scripted reality. I *know* the fandom has racism, anti-trans sentiment, body biases, and more. It's affected the show to the point where the contestants are constantly aware that everything they say and do might be ridiculed on social media before the episode even ends. This is why the earlier seasons the Queens were more catty and brutally shady to each other, whereas now it's much more rare.
I also know that RuPaul is not a role model. Everything from trying to show support to the trans community by posting a flag that supports....trains? There is a segment that was scrubbed from season six called "Male or Shemale". I still can't believe that she won an emmy for best casting for a season that had to be heavily edited to remove a contestant who abused and strung young men along with promises of starring roles on HBO. There are a lot of things about her I find "eccchh", but she is not the whole show. I watch the Queens, I enjoy the performances, and indulge in a little drama enjoyment.
This is probably the oldest of old news to you but I just discovered a drag queen double act on UA-cam and am a little crazed at spreading the gospel: NOVYMPIA ? (Possible misspelling but this'll get you there)
I always like watching your videos. You're one of the fairest and most balanced vidders on youtube. You make your points well, with rarely any vitriol that raises your voice and you can often make me chuckle (I do English good, me.)
If someone wants to boycott a creator or company because of your values, that’s great and I can respect someone for sticking to their beliefs.
If someone then imposes those beliefs on someone else to condemn and ostracise them, you’re now the one being the asshole.
I agree cause once in a message on Facebook once where someone yelled at me for just ask people to respect Clooney as being apart of Batman’s live action adaptions and that I could still find enjoyment out of Batman and Robin even though I have my own issues with the movie cause I had gotten tired of seeing the Clooney hate meme that was going around of showing the actors that have been Batman at the time with Clooney crossed out like I was being told in the message that the person got upset that I was essentially saying let’s just all accept he played Batman and move on nobody has to like him in the role and it also implied that cause the sender of the message couldn’t get enjoyment out of the movie that I wasn’t allowed to and that part stuck with me
Nah, if you're giving money to someone like Rowling who is actively harming people... You are culpable for that.
Either own it and accept culpability for feeding evil, or don't contribute to evil.
You don't get to consume without morality.
You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.
@@FaeQueenCory Only the evil that affects you though right, so many things we consume are contributing to ‘evil’ in one way or another, or are children in sweat shops less important. My point is its all or nothing and no one lives a completely moral life
@@FaeQueenCorybuy YOU DO. There is a disconnect that is baked in. People can rationalize when they buy Harry Potter merch that it's directly going to JKR since they buy the merch from a cashier or online instead of buying from her
Toxicity exists on both sides. There are many people who boycott unfavorable writers or other creators who hide behind a good cause like DEI or Me Too who act just as toxic as the people they claim to oppose. I’m all for equality but not reversing disenfranchisement. Coexistence and agreeing to disagree seems to no longer be an option. When I suggested to someone that we need to allow some of the older generation to catch up, they said they just want them to die off. What that person didn’t realize is that the people they want to die off have left legacies.
To be honest, it's almost always a case by case situation if something feels "icky" enough to me to not touch it with ten foot pole, giving it a chance despite knowing about some problematic stuff or yeah not caring that much about it. (Although the more I'm aware of general social injustices, the lesser the cases where I don't care at all). For example I might give certain pieces of media a chance despite knowing their mixed queer representation ranging from okay and close to good to offensive stereotypes. In those cases I'm just so used to this kind of dilemma, that I try to make the best out of it and create my own headcanons.
Some things hit much closer to home like the whole HP stuff with the transphobia than other things that don't directly affect me or my group. That's something where I do judge even close friends for still liking it, although they know all of it. But as long as they don't start conversations about it, I'm more than happy to avoid the topic myself and "let it slide". In the back of my head I still know it, that this is something I don't like about friend x, but there will always be something about other people you don't 100% like about them. While for me it might be a thing that others still eat meat, for them it could be the other way round and they silently accept that I'm vegan, although it can sometimes complicate things when we go to a restaurant, or chill and eat together.
I might also not be happy when someone listens to music artists who have abused their power to groom/abuse their fans, although they apparently did nothing that crossed a legal line. But as long as they don't go the extra mile and praise those people or defend them against the allegations of multiple victims, I can let it slide.
It might add up with multiple things over time, making me feel uncomfortable or even unsafe around someone, which then negatively impacts our relationship, but I don't go around and tell people: "You're a bad person if you consume xyz"
If someone is a bigot, then I'm angry.
If someone fully supports a bigot on every level, then I'm angry.
If someone supports a bigot although knowing about their bigotted views and actions, and disagreeing with them, then I'm more sad and maybe disappointed than angry.
Because although I understand how hard and painful it can be to cut ties with something like HP, that has been there as a source of comfort and joy for a long time, I still wish more people would do it. But I'm far from going around and telling people to stop it. I avoid HP fanspaces. I avoid getting into talks about the topic and I'm cautious around people I don't know except that I know they are an HP fan.
I was a fan of The Mists of Avalon, so NO ONE gets to tell me they had a harder time dealing with the bad shit of a creator they like.
Yeah, I had that book in my TBR pile from a library sale and after year of not reading it I learned what Bradley had done and I decided that I wouldn't be able to not think about that as I read and decided to donate it back to the library.
My Mom chose to deal with it by deciding the allegations aren't true and yelling at anyone who believes them. :/
@@floraidh4097 I've thought of reading that. What happened? /genq
I feel this one.
I read this as a kid. Then I met and spent time with her daughter (who was problematic in her own way but also legitimately traumatized) before the book. Now I can’t reread it.
nuance?? in MY media discourse??
anyway, this is very insightful and I appreciate how you always bring up counterpoints and consider other views. a rare and valuable skill, there.
On the subject of magic schools, Naomi Novik’s Scholomance series kicks ass.
...you think?
Try reading Gideon The Ninth. You might love it. The fan base is fervent
In My opinion we need to grow up and start to read about magic workplaces instead 😂
There’s tons of alternatives to HP if you know where look. I always recommend Percy Jackson as the author is adamantly queer supportive, collabed with a queer author on one of his books and actively fights back when transphobes attack him for including a gender fluid character in one of his series.
And yes Discworld is great, but there’s tons of other people (more qualified than myself) that can explain why since I’m not even a quarter of the way done with it.
There’s also Earthsea which first popularized the concept of a wizard school.
I definitely avoid certain communities or play down my love for certain IPs because of their fanbases. I've had the opposite happen though to. Where I get more involved because the community is very friendly. The G.I. Joe and Power Ranger communities are pretty nice
I haven’t been involved at the Star Wars fandom for a very long time because of the toxicity in it. It feels paradoxical that fans love nothing more to do than to bash Star Wars. Of course I’m sure there’s people that love Star Wars and don’t partake in it, but I haven’t really seen anything new beyond the force awakens and rogue one
Aww I love this for you.
Thank you for the video, Vera!
The aspect of being able to consume a problematic media work usually comes down to personal tolerance. If the work or its creator(s) promote(s) or endorse(s) some theme or message which someone finds unacceptable or disgusting, they probably should stay away from it. Personally, I do not have problems with raising awareness about the issues of a problematic media work. However, harassing other people and demanding them to not consume the work is very wrong! At the worst case scenario, people should just avoid or cut their ties with other ones involved in the problematic media work, especially if the latter are influencers/celebrities.
What about when fans get upset at other fans over "quality"? Some "fans" get upset that some other fans watch and even like disney star wars. They feel those fams are funding the destruction of the brand by giving $ to what they view as the cause of lesser quality. Or OT fans who got mad at prequel fans for giving continued support to prequels
Yep, see so much of this. 'You supporting these things is supporting destroying this franchise! If you really cared about the franchise you'd boycot it like me so everyone destroying it will get fired" I've seen so much of that.
What about it? If a franchise is no longer for you, yes that sucks. But looking for somebody to blame, especially if it’s people who *are* enjoying what it’s become is just gatekeeping and it gets really ugly really quickly.
@@CouncilofGeeks yes the idea of instead of wanting people to NOT watch a show or film due to the creatives but because of the perceived quality. Some fans want a whole fan base to go on "strike" until they feel the quality is to their liking. Or what about instead of because creatives fans want a show or film to not be watched because of the company that owns that show or film. Like wanting to stop watching DC films until Snyder is rehired by WB-Discovery by the snyder fans?
@@Thed538dhsk as long as they’re not getting mad at the people not doing the same thing it’s harmless enough. Just slot all of this under “just don’t be an asshole about it” rules.
I'm an OT SW fan who hates the prequels (except Sith), it is easy, I just don't watch them. 🤷♀️
I like some of the new SW shows and some I don't. Why is it so hard to just not watch what you don't like? I loved TLJ and still didn't get why people who didn't acted like it was the end of the world. I didn't throw myself on the ground in a tantrum saying the prequels ruined my childhood, even though they did kinda ruin Darth Vader for me. I pretty much just ignore the prequels. This is what adults do. 🤷♀️
I will admit to have had my emotions get the better of me in some discussions. I definitely feel like there are a multitude of lines that intersect between what content is presented within the product, how it coincides with the creator’s beliefs and values, and what the viewer’s own interpretation of said product and values they take from both product and creator. I also feel that separating art from the artist or calling death of the author is all very case by case thing.
Not one of has a fully definitive answer, but what I feel is most important is that you at least are able to recognise the potential shortcoming in the media you engage with and understand how, while it might not affect you, it can cross that threshold for others.
One of my big UGH points is Scientology. I try HARD not to support anything that might end up giving money to them. Of course, I can't know every single Scientologist in the world, but I haven't (knowingly) seen a movie with either Tom Cruise or John Travolta in almost 23 years (Exception being Tropic Thunder as I had NO IDEA Tom Cruise was on it). However, I'm very aware it's a ME issue, so I don't ask anyone else to do the same, or even comment on it outside of when someone invites me to watch one of their movies (Or I need to ask for spoilers to avoid another Tropic Thunder situation)
There's a particular performance of a song done by R Kelly that i really loved. I tried to reason with myself "the songwriting wasn't done by him. The orchestration wasn't done by him. If it was another singer who could sing as good as him, i would still love it, so i shouldn't feel weird still watching, right?"
In the end i concluded: just listen to other music, there's plenty of media to fall in love with
Usually when people support work made by creators I find problematic I just ignore it or stop supporting the person who promotes the work because I don't like starting fights or get into drama unless it Dom Noble because he has shown himself to very willing to learn.
One that I've had an especially hard time with is Harrison Ford being willing to star in Roman Polanski's Frantic a decade after the case. As far as I know, he's never made any kind of statement in the years since defending it or regretting it, which would at least give me some kind of baseline for how I should feel.
I know what you mean. After Polanski was arrested in Zurich back in 2009, there was a now somewhat infamous “free Polanski” petition signed by some of my favourite film industry people, such as Martin Scorsese, David Lynch, Wes Anderson, Jeremy Irons, Harrison Ford (and fittingly enough I think Harvey Weinstein also signed it, apparently saying “Hollywood has the best moral compass”) and other actors like Meryl Streep supported him in other ways. Big yikes.
@@samuelbarber6177 I remember one who was totally against it was Kevin Smith, saying something like "I love Chinatown too, but this has nothing to do with it."
@@Rmlohner it’s rare that I say this, but I agree with Kevin Smith. Chinatown is an excellent movie but this did have nothing to do with it.
Tw: Self harm
As someone who was harassed by JK's terf mob to the point of being hospitalized for over a week over suicide I have a really hard time engaging with anyone who is a Harry Potter fan. As a victim of online abuse I would never harass anyone for enjoying that but it's honestly too difficult for me to be around it and I have a hard time judging those willing to speak up about it. I just can't trust Harry Potter fans to treat me like a person when they so freely discount the harm I and many others have been subjected to because of that author, so as much as I agree and understand with your points I can kind of see the other side too a bit.
People have the freedom to like what they like, even with all the information. I however have the right to not feel safe around you and assert my boundaries without reprisal. I'm sorry this happened to you. Mob rule is prevalent in toxic fandoms and just because it's known doesn't mean it's okay.
I think this also needs to be untangled in a lot of therapy if able. I'm a huge HP fan not because of JKR, I don't care what she says. But it's because I've basically been to all of the HP places.
I'm NB, I fall under the trans umbrella, I donate to The Trevor Project and Trans Lifeline. I haven't consumed HP content in years, haven't been to an HP place like wizarding world. And if, for some reason, I do, then it's handmade or picked up from Goodwill. But you'd probably see my HP tattoo and steer clear of me and would never know.
The problem is lumping everyone into one bad group.
@@infinitecurlie Sorry but all of that simply reeks of good cop fallacies. Can there be Harry Potter fans that are good? Yes obviously, but I have no obligation to disentangle you from the rest. Also as 'good' as you may be you're still here 'not all men'ing it about people that by and large continue to fund and support a woman responsible for my abuse and the abuse of many others. Finally I'm glad you have the luxury of being able to ignore what she did but being around you would mean having a constant source of triggers thrown in my face so you don't have to feel bad about it. So yeah I would absolutely have to steer clear and I won't apologize for it.
I only heard about JK Rowling from you. I very much limit my online life because there is so much hate that is not backed up. (All of Terry Pratchett's books are awesome and very rereadable)
I enjoy your thoughtful videos, so thank you. And your reaction short to Venom3 was so funny!
I started watching you for the Dr. Who reviews. Honestly, I stay for your affirming words at the end. You are valid, you are beautiful, and you are loved by me, too.
Blessings to all and thank you for your work
I do love that, when in doubt, everyone recommends Terry Pratchett.
The patron saint of generally nice people.
I do like the idea of recommending /building up a new or lesser known franchise to help ease people away from a problematic franchise.
There is so much good stuff out there.
It's a nice idea to give people choices, rather than just expecting them to go 'cold turkey' on something.
Regarding the confirmation bias, I'd highly recommend the film Shattered Glass as a great demonstration of it, where several of Stephen Glass' co-workers admitted afterward that they might have looked at his work more critically, except he was always making Republicans look bad so they weren't as inclined to question it.
I usually recommend the Skulduggery Pleasant books if the person in question wants something similar/replacement to harry potter
Also Caelan Conrad has released a new video looking at works similar to HP!
I recommend the Skulduggery Pleasant books not because they're similar to Harry Potter, but because they ABSOLUTELY FUCKING RULE. And Uncle Derek is a representation king, he actually wrote explicitly queer and non-binary characters into the later books. Plus the way he describes chosen names is so empowering. Love Harry Potter? Go read Skulduggery Pleasant. Hate Harry Potter? Go read Skulduggery Pleasant.
@@mdstevens0612 I have the first book and really liked it. My best friend's also a huge fan. I really have to get back into those don't I?
@@mdstevens0612 Yeah I mean I've always preferred Skulduggery Pleasant over HP, I grew up with the books and I was around the same age as Valkyrie when the first wave was being released. Derek is an amazing writer I would absolutely love a Doctor Who episode written by him (I believe he's written a DW Book). It's really cool to find people who still enjoy Skulduggery Pleasant (I'm currently behind trying to catch up I'm on 'Seasons of War' and really enjoying it so far)
As someone very aware of certain authors having done shitty things back in middle to late '00... Some of the (sometimes massive) resources created about it back in the day are just gone now. I've seen some YT channels trying to dive into these topics and they only seem to find random screenshots of these resources, but the original websites and stuff like that are just gone. There are whole recorded histories about the shitty behaviour of people that are just gone now because the people who compiled and created these resources did so on free website platforms that no longer exist or because they stopped paying the hosting fees.
'The internet is forever' until a free website host stops working (or purges accounts that haven't been active in 2-3 years) or until people stop paying the hosting fees (for whatever reason).
There are plenty of things that I know I can no longer provide primary sources for because of this and even when I see YT videos about these topics, even those people can only find screenshots of screenshots of it. It blows my mind how fickle the internet is at times...
Something I've realized recently is that trying to, I think this is the best way I can put it, run every piece of media you consume through a morality litmus test is exhausting and ultimately not worth it. I'm not just talking about media made by bad people. I'm also talking about media that has some kind of problematic content. For example, anime that sexualizes teenage characters or the older Disney movies that contained offensive caricatures of marginalized racial groups or even romantic comedies that portray stalking and obsessive behavior as romantic.
As much as I think it's good, even important, to recognize that those kinds of things are problematic and I'm all for people starting discussions on why they're harmful, I'm usually not going to drop or not watch something just because it has some minor element like that in it and I won't ask anybody else to. It's very much possible to watch something that has stuff like that in it without agreeing with it or being influenced by it. For example, I watch a lot of anime and I've watched/liked a lot of anime that sexualize teenage characters (and sometimes characters who look younger than 13, but are actually 1,000 years old). I'm not attracted to minors. I take the very popular stance that pedophilia is bad. And I also think it's really bad and I would prefer it if anime I watch didn't do this. I want to put a big asterisk on this. I won't judge you for liking something that has an element some people declare problematic, but I also think it's really important to not get defensive about it when people try to explain why they declare it problematic. My mom likes the book Me Before You. A few years ago, she brought the book up and I said that a lot of disabled people have said it's offensive. She got really defensive and tried to make excuses for it and said "Well just because some people think that doesn't mean it's bad".
Typically these days if I find out that someone who was involved in a piece of media I like did a bad, it'll sour my opinion of that person and I usually won't bring up that person by name if I'm explaining why I like it to someone, but I won't completely wash my hands of that piece of media. Hell, I've even watched things AFTER learning about how people involved in them did a bad. I actually don't think there are any specific actors or directors I avoid. I think I've only ever done that with UA-camrs. I've really loved her video essays and I think they're very well made, but I just can't watch iilluminaughti anymore. I understand why it can be bad to financially support or give attention to something made by someone who has done or believed something harmful. But at the same time, I just can't. I can't completely drop something I like at a moment's notice because I find out about something someone said or did just to...what exactly? Keep myself pure? In the end, my decision to watch or not watch a movie doesn't affect much. Ultimately, this shit has to be a personal decision.
The world is stressful, my life is stressful, and I kind of just want to watch stuff without having to make sure I'm "allowed" to watch it.
Here's what made me take a step back because I always said "I will never support the work of bad people"
Harvey Weinstein. He's obviously one of the worst people to ever make art. If you like films in the 20th century, and early 2000s, chances are some of your favourite films were produced by Weinstein and his money and he has profited off and will continue to profit off your enjoyment of those products.
I remember once in a thread in a horror movie group on Facebook when I merely stated that I'd never watched Jerpers Creepers because of my issue with Victor Salva. And hoo boy, did I hear about it. Everything from the folks who flat out told me that I was stupid and missing out on some great movies, to the apologists if his actions ("well, he served his time, doesn't he deserve a second chance?" No!!!), to the folks who told me that I dealved too deep into it and that I shouldn't be that way. Sorry, not sorry. I won't go out of my way to yuck somebody else's yum, but I also won't back down from explaining my problems with certain creators if pushed. Great conversation starter, Vera!
17:50 yup, this right here is *the entire POINT* .
In the end is it really _worth it_ to point out the problematic stuff? Not to mention, is it _truly_ problematic?
Anyhow I recommend the manga The Witch Hat Atelier for magic school (or rather, magic apprenticeship in this case) for magic school stories. Not only the story is great, the art style is absolute ✨ *CHEF'S KISS* ✨. Go read it if you haven't! 😏
Hazbin Hotel is an interesting case of having extreme fans and extreme haters. People that really hate Hazbin Hotel use anything considered controversial to justify hating the show. I actually haven't seen Hazbin Hotel yet because I'm saving it for October and I'm completely ignoring the discourse around it like I do with the last Jedi and the last of us part 2. When the Channel Awesome controversy happened, I regret watching pathetic drama videos on the controversy. I completely ignore drama around UA-camrs I don't watch ever since. If a UA-camr I watch did something unforgivable, I just unsubscribe and move on with my life. I've unsubscribed and move on with my life from The Completionist for charity fraud and making a terrible apology video downplaying his terrible actions with more disgusting manipulation than Jennette Mccurdy mother. People can miss news about people being terrible while online, I've missed news about UA-camrs I used to watch being horrible people. Discovering JonTron political views is disappointing and I don't regret unsubscribing from him. I once had this one Let's Play UA-camr I've unsubscribed from long ago that didn't upload for years only to find out they were arrested for r@pe and were in jail the whole time and I somehow never heard news about it until I searched them on UA-cam. I honestly can't watch Dan Schneider shows anymore with his shows aged worse than milk after I'm Glad my Mom Died & Quiet on a Set. I'm glad my response to Ezra Miller controversies was just supporting Non Binary lesbian icon Bella Ramsey instead. Differently Morphous & Existentially Challenged by Ben Yahtzee Croshaw are better books to read over Harry Potter.
Honestly, Hazbin Hotel's always been one of those "I don't know anything about this show/creator...and at this point, I'm too afraid to ask!" pieces of media because of the sheer amount of polarization. Like, merely ASKING what happened or who did what surrounding it seems to be the conversational equivalent of a bomb going off in a forum or comments section!
And as a result, it's a little difficult at least from my perspective to drill down to the actual events, especially given how extreme haters will blow small things out of proportion and extreme fans will minimize genuine instances of real harm.
15:20 counterprogramming, yes! "why don't we build something better" Abso-freaking-lutely!
I loved the worst witch!
Let's get Vera to 100K.
I like listening to you good talk speak. 😊 I appreciate that you bring matters I might not be aware of to my attention and you bring a thoughtful differing viewpoint at times.
I'm a big believer in the maxim that there is no truly ethical consumption under our form of capitalism. Each of us has to find ways to cope with that, and when it comes to separating the art from the artist, many of us have our red lines for some, and give others some leeway.
Take Buffy the Vampire Slayer for instance. Joss Whedon is, frankly, a total asshole. However, while he created Buffy and Angel and Firefly, there were a whooooooooole host of extremely talented people working on it as well, from writers like Marti Noxon and David Fury, to loads of staffers, makeup artists, wardrobe, stunt performers, and actors like Sarah Michelle Gellar and so on, right on down the line. Buffy is bigger than Whedon, and I won't let him being a dick ruin my enjoyment.
And in Whedon's case it's helpful that he kind of vanished from the limelight. Oh yeah, he pulled the non-apology blame-everyone-else game in an interview, but otherwise he's been quiet. And that's for the best.
Rowling, however, is a far bigger lightning-rod due to her continued battles against the Trans community. As such, I can understand when people disengage from that fandom entirely. It's absolutely valid.
We all have to make our own choices here as fans, and the best thing we can do is to let other fans make theirs. If we disagree, fine, but that's where it should usually end. You know, save for the hateful people who harass and make fandom toxic. They can pound sand.
Nothing particular to add that I didn't mention casually in the premier chat or which that needs preserving, so... Comment for the algorithm.
Your council is much appreciated on this subject, because I have certainly felt that participating in fandom has become more charged than ever before, to the point that I have actively reduced my participation in online discussions for fear of having a "wrong opinion" that will forever follow me in the panopticon of social media.
I do feel like this conversation goes hand in hand with the idea that we have fewer and fewer routes of positive political change in our governments and their oversight (and the rise of nasty political rhetoric to boot...I'm looking at you alt-right) that more and more people have relied on the idea that your choice of entertainment, speaks about what kind of person you are ethically and morally.
Now, certainly choices of entertainment are reflective of your general viewpoint (if you spend all your spare time reading Mein Kampf "for funsies", that says something about your worldview and I can't say that it's very good), but something like being unaware or willing to divorce the creator from their work ("death of the author"), or even being willing to grant grace to an individual who had bad ideas once, and then through education and thoughtfulness moved through that to change, is largely unfair. Again, this lies in the subtleties, where does the line get drawn for you? How have these individuals showed change? Is it just a performance for social media to save face (and their paycheck)?
These are all questions we should be asking when deciding if it is something we wish to engage with as a form of entertainment. And really, we should be asking these questions as the piece of media chooses to depict difficult subjects and topics too. I like horror as a genre, and there is a large amount of violence in that genre - does that make me a violent or "bad" person or do I like to engage with the philosophical content that the creators choose to use in their stories? Stephen King wrote IT and includes a graphic group sex scene of the Losers Club as teenagers. It has been controversial since it's publication, and never included in the film and television adaptations, but IT is also a story of childhood innocence lost and what is more symbolic of adulthood than the engagement of sexuality? But, I digress.
We deserve to draw our own personal boundaries around who we choose to support financially and creatively, and while reliable information should be shared about creators and content, the endless bashing and hazing of what is your decision to engage with isn't productive to helping real people who are really being harmed. Are there bad actors who should not be supported any longer, who have been apologized for despite their behaviors? Absolutely yes and I think we should stop encouraging people to engage with their work (Roman Polanski, Woody Allen, Harvey Weinstein, JKRowling are exactly these people) because they are continuing to create harm by normalizing behavior that is causing active harm to real people and abusing their platform to perpetuate their abuse. If they have bad opinions, well... that is more of a case by case basis.
yayyy new council of geeks video !!
Oh, Harry Potter... what broke that for me was not specifically what JK has been up to in the past years. I'm so sorry, but as despicable as it is, it didnt break the line for me. No, what broke HP for me, was people pointing out, just how weird the whole wizarding world was to begin with, and how littered it is with fucked up politics. Highly recommend Sheep In The Box's video "The Concerning Politics Of Harry Potter".
I keep it in my heart as a nostalgic fave, the movies as a piece of art, and especially the music by John Williams. But I will probably never read the books ever again.
Ah that happened to me except it was Shaun's video. Then I fell into a rabbit hole and have never gotten out of it.
@@infinitecurlie dude... the pooping wizards making their shit disappear was actually my first drop, and then came Sheep's video, then Shaun's, and it just not fixable at this point lol
Anime like Little Witch Academia is basically Harry Potter, but it's good.
Great video!
And amusing too because I distinctly remember a comment on the interview video you mentioned being all 'What about this allegation? And that allegation huh? Are you gonna address that or?' and... you literally talked about it at length in the video...
I don't know, people sometimes seem to pick a 'villain of the week' and it doesn't matter what this person did or if they even did it, they're just bad now and you are too if you associate with them at all...
(Naturally I'm not talking about people who genuinely harm others, like Rowling, they can and SHOULD be criticised. I definitely side eye ppl who still buy official Harry Potter stuff. My comment is more talking about people dogpiling someone because they drew/wrote a fictional scenario involving fictional characters and that makes them bad I guess)
Highly agree with the last part about asking people to cite where they get their info from 😎. I do that all the time or at least ask people "How so" when they make wild claims, so that they can back up what they are saying or so that others can look into it 🤔.
I think what’s needed is to understand that especially in a collaborative medium like film, the line for what repels people is very fluid, and the issue is whether or not they acknowledge the issues with the work or the people involved (and how those people affected that work).
I for instance am repelled by JK Rowling for MANY reasons now, and have been repelled by Kricfalusi since way before the really gross stuff came out because he crapped on basically every studio he worked at before starting his own, and it has affected my enjoyment of things he’s worked on (specifically Mighty Mouse: The New Adventures).
Alternatively, I can still enjoy Joss Whedon’s work because of the good things about it, and despite having listened to a podcast covering Buffy and Angel that had an equally awful co-host. I can also mostly enjoy the old Fat Albert cartoon simply because I know that Bill Cosby’s involvement beyond acting (despite what he claimed in his doctoral thesis) was very minimal knowing that allows me to retain some joy that I DEFINITELY don’t feel with The Cosby Show (I haven’t even attempted to engage with I Spy since everything came out). So, I get both sides of the argument.
Mind you, I largely disengaged with fandoms after the early 2000s, and I don’t regret the decision to enjoy things on my own terms, peaking out into conversations when the mood strikes.
Yeah I personally am not sure how to feel about Mila and Ashton. I kinda sympathize, if a really good friend of mine was accused of something horrible, I think my first instinct would be to come to their defense. It can be hard to see the worst in people you care about even in face of evidence.
The deal breaker for me is that they did it *after* his conviction. Defending him when it was just accusations I do kind of get.
I grew up with the books A series of unfortunate events and it pains me so much to see the accusations against its writer. I decided if I ever buy anything from him I'd buy second hand stuff. Still, I can't ignore what I know about him and it definitely has an impact on my appreciation of the books now.
I live in France and I'm french, unfortunately the institutions here are very rigid and still reward criminals or people who should be behind bars. They are so deconnected to real life it is jarring. Polanski was still rewarded at the Cannes festival a few years ago and I feel so much shame for my country and how we treat sex offenders just because they are 'great artists'. We had more recently the same problem with Gérard Depardieu who is an extremely famous french (but now russian) actor who even our president publicly defended. I have no words.
I do wonder if some of it isn't just motivated by people liking to gossip about and tear down celebrities for the sake of it.
In Re: Ed Asner being a 9/11 truther -- I had never heard/read that... very disappointed to learn that.... 😢
The Nsibidi Scripts Series by Nnedi Okorafor is quite good if you are looking for Harry Potter like series; they skew a bit older though.
I'm very much in the Death of the Author school. I pay attention to the audience more than to the author.
People enjoy the work of Mark Wahlberg without using it as justification for his multiple felony assaults against POCs as part of his White Supremacist ideology - which he may or may not have abandoned. He certainly has avoided advocating White Supremacist views and advocating violence against Asians or Blacks since he became famous.
I did enjoy the Harry Potter books as a part of teen dystopian fiction when they came out. I grew frustrated at the omission of Queer characters/story lines and Jewish characters/story lines with the first Fantastic Beasts movie. This was two years before she started liking transphobic tweets.
Unlike Marky Mark, she keeps doubling down. TERFs use J.K. Rowling to justify dehumanizing people.
People use Polanski and Woody Allen to excuse grooming. H.P. Lovecraft was just too much of a crank to become a poster child for White Supremacy but G.K. Chesterton is a poster boy for genteel (gentile) anti-Semitism.
I think it's more important to be aware when enjoying someone's work can be used as an endorsement of their values.
BTW, J.K. Rowling had to prove that Harry Potter wasn't a plagerized version of Neil Gaiman's Tim Hunter. Neil Gaiman has a number of books, tv shows, and movies with better track records of queer inclusion.
This is part of why I tend not to engage with fandoms of things I like outside of very specific instances. You get people gatekeeping, telling you what you should and shouldn't think about a particular actor/creator/musician, etc. But there are issues with (insert creative here) that are felt on a more personal level, and that should be respected. I get that a lot of anime/manga fans cannot stand the creator of Rurouni Kenshin - I do not condone the creator's actions at all. But, the anime stars one of my favorite voice actors, who is also a former Takarisienne I enjoyed watching perform, and I enjoy her work as Kenshin. I will not buy the manga, but a used DVD of the anime, or one borrowed from someone who purchased them before the creator's crimes were known? I'll watch it and enjoy it. But for other anime fans to say "you can't enjoy Kenshin in any way because the mangaka is awful" - that's what I don't like. I can enjoy something like season 1 of The Mandalorian even though it has that actress in it (I honestly don't remember her name, the one who played Cara Dune), and even enjoy her performance, while disagreeing with what she's said and how she's acted off-screen, because she's part of the whole, not the whole itself.
For Rowling... I can't anymore. Which makes it difficult sometimes because my siblings are still huge Potter fans, and while they condone her words and actions, still buy new official Potter-related merch. The series for them is something they feel they can't do without, despite how Ms. Rowling acts. Said same siblings also were completely turned off of their once-favorite band, Brand New, when the news broke about the lead singer of the band abusing minors, because one of them had been through some of what the victims alleged, and had felt like the Brand New songs helped them through that particular trauma. And then to have the parasocial trust they'd put in the band and its music be betrayed due to said trauma was too much for them (if I'd listened to the band, I will admit I'd have dropped them as well, but I'd never heard them before the allegations came out, so it was easy to just not listen).
About actors collaborating with Woody Allen or Roman Polanski, I think we have the right to criticize them. Even if they don't actively say "I'm okay with everything they did", they are free to choose to collaborate with them or not, a freedom not everybody has. Adele Haenel is a french actress who is a survivor of s*xual violence committed by the director of the movie she played in when she was between 12 and 15. She has spoken about s*xual violence in the cinema field several times and left the Cesar ceremony when Roman Polanski got the "best direction" prize. She has now decided to leave the cinema world because of how present and accepted s*xual violence is in this industry. And one of main reason this is is because of the support (passive or active) from everyone (actors, directors, studios etc) and how s*xual violence (and other forms of violence) is *everywhere*, from cinema schools to award ceremonies to directors, everything is connected and made so s*xual violence can continue. So actors choosing to play in movies made by Woody Allen and Roman Polanski are actively allowing that violence to continue because these directors know that they have nothing to fear. It's a well oiled machine that needs to be stopped. And I think taking down these systems go hand in hand with building new ones.
Not 100% relevant but this tied to something that happened to me today. I was volunteering at my local community theater and they were putting on a production of Puffs by Matt Cox, a satirical play that follows background characters throughout the 7 Harry Potter books. I saw the play years ago when the off-Broadway original production was professionally shot and played on movie screens in 2018. When I saw it back then, I absolutely adored it. As a massive Potter fan, I laughed at every joke and got every reference. Since 2020 I've refused to engage with the Potter property at all given JKR's TERFdom but I wanted to support personal friends who were putting on this production. I really had trouble enjoying the show today. The production quality was fantastic, the direction/acting/sound/costumes/effects were all perfect, it was a great show. Unfortunately what was running through my head while sitting in the audience was that a group of my friends had languished for months putting together this fantastic project but none of them could see the invisible man in the middle of the stage kicking a dog.
I will never discuss these things with anyone who was in the physical production. When I saw them after the show, I talked about all of the fantastic things they did, the sets and costumes and how much I loved to see them having fun. A couple weeks ago I spoke with a producer on the show who was responsible for picking it and they were aware of the JKR issues but they thought that the show was "removed enough to be safe." It is removed enough to not draw JKR's ire but it is not a show that parodies HP because it thinks the world/author is bad, it is made out of love and that absolutely carries. The audience is full of people wearing HP merch and you hear whispers of people quoting movie lines and pointing out obscure book references. An OK parody might be Dimension 20's Misfits and Magic which pretty frequently takes a moment to explicitly say "Fuck TERFs" even though you can still sometimes tell that they love the opportunity to RP in the HP world even tangentially.
Not really sure where I was going with this, I just had a lot of feelings today and then you dropped this video, seemed like the best place to leave this.
Watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer hurts me now 😢
🫂
Growing up is realising that, although it was important to our childhood, Harry Potter was never the masterpiece of fiction we all thought it was and there are much better written magical fantasies out there to enjoy.
It is perhaps worth noting that as with everything, there is always going to be a certain number of people who legitimately are not aware of any given figure's actions, such as the example of JK Rowling given in the video - even if they're not people who are entirely offline. Personally, despite being a reader in general, I tend not to follow *anything* most of the authors I read say outside of their books, unless I'm very deliberately trying to catch up with all of their stories (and even then, this is mostly interviews and signing events where they discuss themes and such of their books) This is for the simple reason of spoiler avoidance - I'm not as fast a reader as I'd like to be, and I'm almost always well behind an author's published works, and authors regularly drop spoilers for their own books. I don't want to know that a major character is going to Book 8 of a series until I'm reading Book 8 and see that character in that situation.
I'm not a Harry Potter fan. I liked the books as a little kid, but I'd grown out of the series before it even finished - I read book 7 once and kinda just skimmed it. But if I was, I'd not be seeing what JK Rowling posts because of that policy. I'd only be exposed to it through channels like yours, which I'm only aware of because I'm in an internet community with a lot of trans members and started reading up on the political issues surrounding the acceptance of transgender people. (That got me to Jessie Gender, who mentioned a podcast that was starting a run through of Babylon 5, a series I've been quite fond of for some time now, and that's how I got here).
Granted, yes, I'm less online than many people these days. UA-cam and Twitch are about the only social media platforms I make use of - stuff like Facebook and Twitter always made no sense to me, even before shit like Facebook selling user data to groups like Cambridge Analytica and Elon Musk turning Twitter into nazi-bot hell.
Furthermore, there's always the "Ten Thousand" effect. There's an XKCD comic (#1053) that points out that any given fact that "everyone knows" is not something people know at birth. If you assume that everyone encounters that by age 30, look at the US birth rate, there's about 10 000 people learning that thing any given day. The comic celebrates this learning, focusing on the random cool stuff like learning what Diet Coke and Mentos does...but yeah, sadly not all of these "everyone knows" things are good things to be celebrated. The fact that JK Rowling is an outspoken transphobe is one of them.
The problem with any creative writing is that they have an innate point of view. You have to have it even in purely descriptive works. Otherwise there's no point to it. There are a lot of novels and literary series that I've read that made me so unhappy even angry at the way the story progressed. For me Harry Potter hit that bump in the Half-Blood Prince and the 1st part of the Deathly Hollows. By the time it got to Deathly Hollows, I was unhappy and angry with writing. You could tell she wanted this story finished - not ended - finished. She closed doors and killed off most loose ends. She finished the series. And hated her, for doing so. We all get that was when we fall in love with characters, story worlds and so on. We're invested in the story and that's in a way good. It keeps people arguing about Lord of the Rings, Dr. Who forty years later. Don't you think that's a good thing?
3:55 I'd be interested in seeing a Top 5 videos your most proud of at the end of the year, maybe coupled with how/if your thoughts on the topics have evolved.
I like the part about how many folks know being a factor. Like I don't vibe with R Kelly fans, but no one is surprised as to the why in that situation. My hatred for David O Russell, however, is something folks might not be as familiar with
I feel like with that list of "have you heard of?" recommendations that Caelan Conrad just felt a disturbance in the force and they got startled out of a nap somewhere in Canada lol
If you really want to watch something but don't want to support individuals involved, you can always buy second hand dvds or even sail the high seas of the internet.
Or check out the library if they have it in their catalog. It’s free and you don’t have to pay for anything other than fines if you turn in late.
Ooo I love both those ideas 💡 big brain on you. I totally forgot about second hand DVDs
Or do research into seeing if giving them financial support is actually that bad? People can say bad stuff online but still have a positive influence in the world. I'm not a fan of what JKR has said but she donates a portion of her profits to her charity anyway which helps children in need. IF the individual is just a tool through and through then yes Library's are fantastic. I'm a cheapskate anyway and already read books from a library.
@@Logicalleaping she has also stated that any money she makes she will use to actively campaign against trans people. So it doesnt matter what good she does do, if she is using her money she gets from people consuming her stuff to threaten mine and other trans people's lives then I'm going to have a harsh outlook on the matter.
Some very good thoughts here! I dunno about the notion that there should be more leeway given to collaboration projects like movies but that it's more 'okay' to hardline with authors. While I get that it's easier to cleanly associate work with an artist/creator whose art form allows them full creative control--this does also normalize being harsher towards creatives/artists who have more independence in their work, and, in a way, punishes creative independence. Happens with authors and musicians, it seems. For me, I think nurturing creative independence is a good thing, so I'm always a bit put off by this approach to activism. A side effect of it is to disregard artistic/creative labor while giving privileges to industrialized and corporate versions. Tbh, by and large, I just don't see that rallying against creative works and their creators does anything other than stifle more productive action and alienate the uninvolved. Which comes back to your point of thinking more on what is the goal, how do we accomplish the goal. That's just my own line though, I suppose.
Related to this, I think there's been a tendency lately where, when people just don't like something for personal reasons, they feel like they need to reach for a "valid" moral reason to dislike it to justify their opinion. You're totally right that everyone has their Icks but what's wild is seeing people apply them unevenly to explain why they don't like something as if it's unique to that thing. "I won't play this video game because I know the studio has a terrible crunch culture that's harming workers" is an absolutely valid stance! But then that same person will play video games they care about more from other studios doing the exact same. Like either be consistent or admit that it's just not something you like enough in the first place to violate your principles for.
My rules for problematic creators are: If you can watch/listen/read something and not think about what the creator has done, then go ahead and watch it. If someone gives you information about a creator that you can't ignore (assuming it's true) then don't get mad at the person who told you. If you can't watch/listen/read something without thinking about what the creator has done, then don't watch/listen/read it. You can tell other people why you won't watch/listen/read it, but other people get to make their own decisions about what they can and can't tolerate.
None of these rules are inflexible because, in reality, it can get complicated. I remember a conflict over a party where the hosts were playing Michael Jackson's music and some guests objected. Some people thought the hosts had a right to play whatever they wanted and the guests who objected should leave. Other people thought the hosts should stop playing the music when some guests were upset by it. Just acting on our personal tolerances can affect other people, too, so it's not so as easy as "you do what you want and I do what I want."
Many, many good points! I did not know that about Ed Asner. That's horrible!!! The moment you said misinformation, I thought of James Somerton (I'm a former fan)
I have to admit that I am a big Harry Potter fan. I started reading the books after the first movie came out and my niece and nephew dragged me to it. Admittedly the biggest draw at that time for me was the fact that Allen Rickman was in it and I am a big fan of his but, I found that it was a good movie and even better on second viewing after I had read the books. I have to admit that I do still love the Harry Potter books and movies and I know it’s the fantasy behind it, I am a big fantasy fan but that being said, I am no longer a J. K. Rowling fan. The funny thing is I never followed her on anything and always had a funny feeling about her. I’m not going to say that I sensed what she was like because I didn’t but it was something I didn’t like about her and I thought it was probably because she resembled an aunt of mine who is a terrible Karen and that is probably why however, although I will watch the movies and then join them and I will read the books and enjoy them if J. K. Rowling showed up at my door, I would slam it in her face. I do not agree with anything she stands for and I actually cringe at the fact that she wrote these books even though if you look back the ideas of the books on this original as people think she took them from other places which is normal so I won’t hold that against her but I think she’s a horrible human being!
Something I would like to add to is I do belong to some Harry Potter groups but, I’m getting really fed up with the amount of people that actually sticks up for her and try to say that she didn’t say the crap that she did when it is out there for everyone to see. I was late to learn about it but when I did I realized it was easy to find. There are some people like me who are fans of Harry Potter but don’t like the way she’s behaving so they aren’t all sticking up for her but the sad truth is a good many probably more than half hour and that sickens me
@@robertaewing5468 Okay as someone who isn't to into the social sphere all the JKR stuff happened on I'd like to know what she's done other than some Transphobic tweets? Having opinions that not all agree with doesn't make you a bad person. In fact I'd say she's one of the better 'rich' people out there with donating some of her earning to charity (Children in need). Now while I don't think that makes being transphobic right I'd say its enough to move on and accept the good the person does.
Why is it that we Crucify someone for doing one thing the CURRENT social world disagrees with. The inherent Transphobic remarks she makes are simply words its the people who use her words as just cause for violence against such people. its like one person saying I don't like green crayons and a group of people taking it to mean to destroy all green crayons. I dunno its hard. At the end of the day I'm capable of taking her art without looking at the artist.
Could be wrong and maybe JKR has actually done something to warrant this insane hate but quite frankly seems like an over reaction the same kind that DR. WHO 'fans' make with Dr. WHO going 'woke'.
You were right she is voicing her opinion and everybody’s entitled to it the problem is that she is supporting groups that are doing horrible things to specifically trans people and she is building up the heat the best she can with in her groups so everyone assumes that if you have ever read one of her books Which came out long before she started this nonsense but You too are anti-trans and I have actually been verbally attacked by people who are supposedly against her but personally I think they’re just trying to look like they are not anti-trans themselves and probably are. But that latter part is beside the point I would just suggest finding videos on UA-cam put out by jammy dodger, this is a trans guy who has had some things to say about why her actions have caused for the trans community and it’s from him and people like him that I have learned what is going on. Like I said I have no idea why but I never followed her on any social media it could just be because I’m not on the lotto basically come on say hi to friends on Facebook a good number of which are friends that I actually know and then his stem down into friends of the arts in friends of nursing so forth but I never followed her and I actually never Heard until about a year ago about her views. She is one of the people who are saying things like trans people are out to hurt women but seriously check out Jamie on jammy dodger and you’ll get a good idea but she’s doing. Also thank you for replying you have said things on here that I have tried so much to say to people and I am not good with wording, not at all I Have even tried to write a children’s book but I’m terrible with words and I can’t get it out lol
Yeah, I usually reserve my ire for the folks at the top of the food chain, like JKR, or whole companies like Ubisoft or Blizzard (who are rotten from the top down). I may express that feeling in the hope folks will understand or be aware that it can be a problem for many and it may be worth considering, particularly if you are a content creator, or culture commentator. If I get strong pushback, then I just block and move on, cuz they aren't worth my time. I get really worked up about some of these things, and really just had to start forcing myself to keep my mouth shut about it.
With the books it's at least easy to solve. If you want to read something, but you dislike the author - you can just not pay for it
@@АлинаКостылева-ф2ч In the case of someone like (or equally bad as) JKR, just seeing her IP is distressing, so even simply not paying for it is a no go, not to mention such people's ideology often seep into their works. There are some games or movies I could enjoy if I could get them for free, tho. On a case by case basis, of course.
A beautiful plea for moderation! Thank you. I personally try hard to appreciate a work for its own merits, divorced from its association with troublesome creator rumours. The list of creatives we 'know' to be awful people is undoubtedly incomplete and if we knew the truth, we'd have to burn all the paintings in the galleries, all the books in libraries, stop listening to any music and never watch a programme again. Should we do that, to be on the safe side? No; that would create a bleaker world than the people we disapprove of want to make!
So, as adults who can compartmentalise, we should: enjoy Harry Potter, despite knowing the author's ugly stance; delight in Picasso's weird and wonderful paintings, regardless of the fact he was an atrocious misogynist; thrill to The Wall of Sound songs without fearing the Spector of a murderer; and so on and on and on.
Good video. I appreciate the thoughts you had. I agree just breathe it will help out. Some people in fandoms I tell will never be happy
Have you read 'the secrets of platform 13' or the sci fi of Rachel Pollack???
Firstly... you have ratties? I approve, very much. Rats are wonderful pets!
Secondly - I think there are things that can't be ethically watched, but not because of how a specific individual is outside of that project, rather, the production itself was produced unethically. Such things happening are why certain disclaimers are needed in productions depicting specific adult activities, for example (and my goodness is it hard to circle around the specific topic in a way that won't get flagged by auto censorship on UA-cam).
Another consideration in why jumping down someone's throat isn't really acceptable - you have no idea if a person you're talking to online is mentally old enough to understand the ramifications of supporting works made by problematic creators - just because someone says they're in their 20s or 30s, it doesn't mean they actually are, or that they have a level of reasoning capable of recognizing problematic themes. Tread carefully, you could be conversing with someone who isn't capable of a level of ethics that you might want to hold someone to, but still very much capable of conversing in otherwise mature ways.
Are snuff films depicting irl violence ethical to consume?
How about films with older racist stereotypes like Peter Pan's depictions of native Americans?
What about films produced by Harvey W
What about films that star Mel Gibson
What about films that exploited the actors like the Shining with how Shelly Duval was mistreated by director Kubrick?
@@Thed538dhsk My failure to cite other examples does not constitute approval of the examples you've given, if that was what you were getting at with your comment. I was choosing one specific example. I am one person, I am not an expert, I cannot possibly cover every possibility in a single comment, nor is it reasonable to expect that someone should spend 12+ hours writing a UA-cam comment. If you are looking for that sort of exceptionally long-form writing on a subject, you will most likely not find it on UA-cam. I suggest, if you want to read that kind of thing, your search is better directed towards Tumblr or Blogger.
Feel this strong, misinformation is a bitch and I fully admit I've fallen victim to it and spread it without intending to, but that's why I've just tried to make more of an effort to seek primary sources for stuff
This is really a solid video, but I will point out that toxic fandom as a thing, makes Bill Maher's points about fandom as a part of society valid. These are books and TV shows that people love and adore, but if they were all to vanish tomorrow, we as a species could survive and need none of it, or find something new to enjoy. What I am not always 100% a fan of is this idea that we need these pieces of media like food. It to far and makes a point that toxic fandom is ridicuous in the first place. As a side note, my fandom Doctor Who, I can smell when people are not going to enjoy something a mile away and watching them gripe all over the internet about it, does make me laugh, I'll be honest. The same happens in other fandoms as well. I'm in the middle when it comes to this topic. I think it is totally wrong, but also kind of funny. Dave's stand-up bit on OJ also plays into what you're speaking on here.
It really depends on how much i like the "bad" person and/or their work. I keep hearing about yet another person I'm a fan of doing something terrible and i feel like i can't enjoy their stuff anymore
every time someone talks about harry potter I change the topic to discworld. I just can't enjoy even my good memories of Harry Potter because of how horrible JK has been. There was a time when I could say 'wow she's horrible, I won't spent money on official stuff but I'll still enjoy the fandom' but that time has long since passed. But I also know a ton of people don't pay attention to how she acts and just think 'wow big pop culture thing people like, referencing it will boost attention!' (ex a lot of rescues around me use hp as name themes for litters of kittens they catch off the street, or artists who make hp stuff just cos they know it will get them money and not necessarily because they're deeply invested). But I can't, and I will try to redirect people's attention whenever I can cos she's just so bad. But I also try not to shame them unless they actively start saying they support her current behavior or that they align with her. Then all bets are off cos they've proven they are a horrible person. But most people really don't know and aren't that deep into it. Or have even been purposefully staying away because they know tangentially she's been horrible but don't want their joy ruined. So for those, I redirect rather than shut down.
and since I heard the algorithm prefers longer comments, I'll make mine longer by mentioning Black Panther. The actress who plays Shuri went full hardcore anti vaxer in 2020 and I saw a lot of people say they couldn't enjoy Black Panther now because of her. For me, I could reason that she hadn't done that yet when Black Panther was made so it would still be possible to enjoy that movie, but Black Panther 2 was much harder to appreciate just from that alone because she hurt people with her actions. But a lot of people I talked to couldn't look at anything she was in the same way again. But thankfully no one seemed to say 'no one is allowed to enjoy Black Panther because of her!' in my circle, so at least there's that.
Let's hear it for nuance!!! I love all of what you said in this video, but in particular the pieces about "what is your goal?" and "is this claim substantiated?"
In an extreme example, so many classic movies were produced by Harvey Weinstein, do you really think never watching a Weinstein movie agian is going to have any affect on his life? Maybe if everyone stopped watching his movies all at once it would make a difference, but that is not a realistic goal. A better approach is to VOTE and make sure lawmakers, prosecutors, judges, etc. are people who will hold rich assholes accountable for their actions.
In terms of unsubstantiated claims, I had a friend once tell me that a Jewish actress that I admired was an anti-vaxxer, and I low-key believed it for years until I looked it up and found that people were taking something she said in an interview wildly out of context and that she was definitely pro-vaccines. I'm working on getting better at checking sources, and wish it was more common for sure.
This is really interesting too when thinking about the Booktube and Booktok community.
There's a few that I've been like ok I think this book is terrible but like, if someone else liked it, then they should read what they like cause my opinion isn't the end all be all and it's not a personal failure of someone if they read and liked something that didn't work for me.
But ooof. It was really bad on Booktok and I saw several creators that had to really police their comments or just shut them off entirely because they (people in fandom) just couldn't handle someone saying that they didn't get why the book was so popular.
i'm so glad someone finally this
Yeah, the webcomic Boyfriends has been attacked like this for a while now, but has recently picked up and being spread around more enthusiastically. I get so frustrated bc its always the same things. They either liked art or made art that was supposedly nsfw art of a character that a minor and theres never any source let alone what fandom
My friend and her partner are extremely passionate about HP and they think that I am too. I certainly used to be. It'll always have a place in my heart, but I can't bring myself to engage with new HP content at all, especially the HL game (because there are other ick things about that game besides JK). But my friend keeps wanting me to come over to her house and check out HL and it's almost all she talks about too. I've told her that I'm boycotting JK. She didn't even ask why, she didn't react at all to that info (I don't think she knows about JK and I'm not sure she would care too much because she doesn't know any trans people, I'm not even sure she knows what trans is, plus she's very apolitical and has never had any social media). I don't have the heart to be *that* person who poops on her hobby.
I feel like fandom in general is in a really weird place these days. It used to be "toxic fandom" just referred bigots, people who were very much "bad people." And, obviously, those folks are still around (and louder than ever). But now we've also got a lot of toxicity coming from people who are at least *trying* to be "good people."
I guess you could say people can be assholes regardless of their moral or ethical justifications, but I dunno... that kind of feels reductive.
I still listen to Harry Potter audiobooks I bought way before Rowling came out as a TERF. I still love The Sandman, Coraline and American Gods tv show despite the accusations against Gaiman (altho tbh there's no way of verifying if they're even accurate, so I'm defo not ready to "cancel" him). It's ok. In Rowling's case she is so hateful I would never pay her money for her work anymore but also the books came out a long time ago.
I love your idea of building something better. I know there have to be some alternatives to HP that haven't been shut down, I just picked up a copy of Blood at the Root, which has an African American focus on a college for wizards but my student base is primarily Latino/Hispanic and I would like for them to see themselves as exceptional/heroes where possible. Any suggestions?
I think it’s just a matter of giving the same energy back to conservatives who cancel things with queer folk in stories, or on the teams that create anything. Look at Dragon Age: The Veilguard. That game is constantly attacked for having a trans dev and inclusive character creator to the point where when a legitimate criticism comes along it just becomes a horrible dogpile where a lot of the transphobic people start planting seeds like, “that’s the final straw for me, I’ll buy it in a bargain bin.”
“Oh you like Harry Potter? You should check out the Simon Snow trilogy.” My new strategy.
great video!
toxic fandoms ruin everything for everyone