Adult animation deserves better swearing
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The uproar over the Simpsons was insane. When I was 8, Simpson shirts were banned in school. They particularly were offended by the Bart Simpson shirt: “Underachiever and proud of it!” No profanity. No obscenities. Well I guess in 1990’s America not bring an overachiever was a crime.
I think it was more because people didn't like Bart Simpson and thought he was a bad influence on kids 🤔.
I remember the uproar over the simpsons being 5 when they started and I never understood it cause I have been watching the series since it started
As an overachiever in an American school in the 90s, I can assure you that being an overachiever was also a crime. 😂
Saw the early seasons of Simpsons as they aired. Was then banned once I got into school. By the time Family Guy came out I could watch them again as Bart would no longer corrupt me
@@CLDJ227Personally, I think it’s deeper than that. America at the time the Simpsons was released was a much more.. conservative place. And I’m not just talking in terms of politics either. Tv shows were much more afraid of pushing the limits of what was “acceptable” to show on tv or what ideologies were ok to mock. That’s where the Simpsons comes in, being a satirical deconstruction of the tropes in media at the time and the ideals most Americans held dear. The Simpsons was unapologetically critical in a time where most people were afraid to be, backlash was certain. People didn’t just hate a single aspect of the Simpsons, they hated the whole thing and everything the it stood for. The Simpsons became a moral panic for a reason, the progressive ideas and messages the show promoted to a fairly young demographic of older teens and young adults spelled trouble for the more conservative older generations who feared what they couldn’t understand.
When I think of adult cartoons, I want a show made for adults that happens to be animated. But sometimes I feel like adult cartoon creators try to be edgy to make it more “adult.” So, I don’t have a problem with bad words or dark humor, I just wonder why it happens in cartoons and not other shows
100% agree. The only two shows that I can name off the top of my head that are both for adults and *are* adult, are Bojack Horseman and Tuca and Bertie
See I think of shows like Lupin the 3rd A woman name Fuji to Mine which has a dark mood and delves into heavy themes.
I remember a poll somewhere asking what the best adult animated show was and I answered Cowboy Bebop. Simply because it deals with a lot of adult themes and while teenagers and even some kids might still enjoy it, since much of the shows deals with having a past and living with that past it doesn't truly "hit" until you're an adult with a past yourself.
Mature and Adult for me should be terms of, you know, seasoned topics. Things that you need some life-experience wrestling with. Like having a past, maybe raising kids (if you have them, some of us can't and some of us simply don't want to), or just trying to solve the jigsaw puzzle that is everyday living. That is what being an adult is like.
But since we label things with sex and swearing and consuming liquor as "adult" that's the association people, especially teens and young adults (early 20's), have with being an adult and so to prove how "mature and adult and totally not a little immature kid anymore" they swear and drink. And unfortunately, much media isn't any better.
Not saying they can't tackle mature topics and have swearing, drinking etc. Just that it sometimes feel like they "must" have sex, swearing etc. in order to be viewed as mature content when it is not an inherently mature thing, just because it may not be suitable for children doesn't make it mature.
@@theyakkoman Ironically thinking that swearing and drinking alcohol all the time is adult is actually more childish 🤔.
Moribito is a good one. It's very adult but kid-friendly at the same time. Kids would think it's sooo boring, but as an adult it's an amazing story.
Bojack Horseman is a great example of the one F per season. So amongst the commentary on debauchery, excess, mental health, trauma and a talking horse you know that when you hear it it is meaningful. That being said its a hard series to recommend because the first few episodes play strongly into the "ha ha its a horse that drinks, vomits and had sex". I'd like to believe this to be its own commentary on adult entertainment and animation but it's still jarring on first view.
On Malcolm Tucker, perfect example of how swearing works in real life. Him being Scottish making this feel particularly real to life as it really is used like punctuation here haha
I remember the creator lamenting that when they finished the first season, they'd sent the first 6 episodes to reviewers, and he said that he felt they were emulating a more traditional adult comedy style of humour and story-telling and it's only later in the season where the show starts to find itself, and the episode where that change is most notable is ironically enough the first f-bomb in the entire show, where Herb tells Bojack to "get the fuck out of my house". That episode just so happened to be episode 7, so no reviewers saw it before the show debuted.
The handful of f words in Bojack Horseman still sit with me, they're all such great moments with such meaning. I especially love Charlotte saying "If you ever contact me or my family again, I will f*cking k"ll you." Such a powerful moment that couldn't be done if "f*ck" was dropped all the time
The handfuls of f words in Bojack Horseman still sit with me, they're all such great moments with such meaning. I especially love Charlotte saying "If you ever contact me or my family again, I will f*-king k*11 you." Such a powerful moment that couldn't be done if "f**k" was dropped all the time
Yooo I never even thought of that, amazing point, Bojack stays on top🔥🔥🔥
The cultural association with animation being only for kids, at least in the US, is definitely still alive and well.
I was speaking to my coworkers about what the best Spider Man movie is and not only did none of them say Spider Verse, none of them had even seen it. They'd seen the others, the Raimi ones, the Webb ones, the Marvel ones; but not Spider Verse. Cuz I mean, that's a cartoon bro. Why would grownass adults watch a cartoon, when you can watch grownup stuff, like the comic book movies with real people in them??? lol
But even beyond that, animation in the US is such an undervalued medium. That's why we feel the need to recreate animated films or shows into live action. It's not well enough to have Disney movies be animated, it's not well enough for Avatar to be animated, it's not well enough for anime to be animated. We've gotta remake these cartoons with real people, or else adults won't know that it's okay for them to watch them.
Well said. I would also add that too many people out there have the mindset that because cartoons are just moving drawings (i.e. not real) and they can't get into it and therefore see live-action as more legit.
However, I'm hopeful that as generations that have grown up with quality animated work get older this stigma may change 🤔.
yeah, while I do agree with most of the video, that one part about animation for kids really confused me with how clearly ongoing the issue is. My biggest example is the avatar remake. they remade what is often cited as the best animated show ever made into live action (twice) for no reason other than "Its more adult when its live action instead of animated", and then proceded to remove everything that made the show good.
You could even make an argument that kids shows don't talk down to their audience and treat them like adults whereas, ironically, alot of adult shows constantly hold the audiences hands and treat them like children when it comes to telling a story.
Seriously, I've been rewatching Craig of the creek for the fifth time now because it's basically a kid show ment for my age group, with very smart writing, and many references and stories being reminiscent of the things I grew up with. Heck there's an episode where one character says "hey do you guys remember (insert show here)" several times and every show was a cartoon network show I grew up watching. (Swat Kats, Kids Next Door, Symbionic Titan in that order... I felt so called out in that episode.)
I think the irony of the entire situation is the fact that a lot of the shows that use gratuitous swearing, sex and violence to establish themselves as “not for kids” kinda end up failing in the end to actually cultivate an adult audience. From what I’ve seen in online spaces dedicated to the fandoms some of these shows have, there’s a LOT of underage fans for these “adult” cartoons. Hell, a lot of the shows even acknowledge those fans! The two best examples I can think of are South Park and Family Guy. Family Guy constantly jokes that the only people still watching the show are edgy 14 year olds, and South Park had an entire movie acknowledging the fact that kids watch their show and parents are upset about it.
With this mindset so prevalent I'm glad my dad is still all in on seeing animated films at his age. It's usually what draws him to the theaters.
"Have it fucking matter" , you are an absolute gem Vera.
++++
If there's no swearing, how else are these damn kids supposed to know this isn't a damn kid's show? Damn it
aka "Torchwood Maturity"
the matter is not THAT they swear, it is the kind of swears used.
In my experience it's rather the parents than the kids. Dunno. Maybe I had weird friends
Mature adult themes and writing only adults would understand yet very boring to children. That’s why I haven’t watched Bojack cuz I thought it was boring as a kid, now it’s one of the best shows ever made to me.
@@voltijuice8576series 1 and 2 atleast series 3 was the good kind of adult content
I’ve said it before, but I do often find that adult cartoons are inherently childish in their approach. The excessive swearing is just the place where it is most obvious. There are times when it’s makes sense, but the vast majority of times I can’t help but feel that their adding an F-bomb every other sentence for the sake of adding an f-bomb on the end of every sentence. It’s like when as teenagers you discovered swearing so used them as often as possible because that made us cool. Look at how grown up we are. We're using bad words.🤭
Adult ratings should be a consequence of the subject matter, not a target. If you're having to force it by adding in unnecessary swear words it’s not an adult show, it’s an edgy teenager show.
19:10 I like this suggestion because I feel like people who swear a lot in real life don't put a lot of emphasis on it most of the time, they just slip it into sentences casually
How do you have a time stamp if the video hasn’t come out yet? I need your time traveling powers.
@@itsjayden8002channel members often have earlier premier of videos.
@@hannajung7512 Didn’t know that. Thanks for informing me.
As an Australian, yes. I don't swear myself but a lot of people here do.
I like how "The Good Place" handled swearing. Forking clever sons of benches on that crew. On the other hand, a well-placed f-bomb? [chef's kiss] Swearing is an _art form._
A moment I like from Helluva Boss, is that they establish that Blitz swears all the time, then have a moment of him not swearing to empahsis that the situation is serious.
"What the fuck is going on here" [...] "He can get hurt?" was rly good in my opinion bc u could see the switch so clearly.
So reverse of bojack? On how they would make a character swear to really emphasize the seriousness of a situation specifically bojack ruining a relationship completely by having that character swear. I wish viv was a good enough of a writer to execute this
@@kellytamia9152 I think Viv is a better writher than whoever wrote Bojack. I couldn't even finish that show. And Viv's show is the one trending everywhere, sooo just saying.
Well, cursing is like spices.
Used sparingly, it will make everything tastier.
Too much, and you won't taste anything else.
I stand by there are two ways to do swaeing well.
1) Have someone who swears eloquently, where there's a craft to their cursing, and each word feels like a deliberate choice rather than trying to look cool - Malcolm Tucker for example.
2) Have the swearing mean something - Everytime the F bomb was dropped in Bojack Horseman, it hurt, it was never a "Haha this is funny" moment, it was a "Shit just got real moment", Bojack went to a lot of mature and dark places and yet "Fuck" still carried a lot if weight.
I give South Park a bit of a free pas for it's use of swearing sinply because it's mainly kids who think swearing is cool - that makes sense from a character perspective.
Part of me suspects this is primarily an American issue, as those of us in the UK are more used to swearing as a matter of course. Obviously, anything children may watch doesn't contain swearing (although there are exceptions) and anything pre-9pm is restricted in what can be said. After 9 o'clock - what's known as the watershed - is less restrictive, although certain words beginning with f and c are still limited.
Obviously, this means that the f-word isn't bleeped after a certain time, whereas from what I've seen of US talkshows shown at 11pm, they still bleep these words out.
Incidentally, hell, damn and even bitch are not widely considered major swearwords, and have been heard on children's television aimed at an older demographic (12 to 15, for example).
As for whether it's too much swearing, it depends on if it's deliberately overdone or not. If it's an artistic choice rather than just done to shock is a fine line; admittedly, one that can be easily crossed, however.
I feel like, in this regard, adult animation is still treating itself like a novelty.
It's been around since at least the 70s (as far as I know), the novelty worn off, you can be a little more earnest in the approach
Correct. Fritz The Cat from 1972 is considered the first animation aimed at adults.
If anyone here watches Big City Greens, there's an episode where Cricket picks up the word blort from Grandma. Cricket picks up on this, takes it and runs with it. I was laughing so hard at that episode because blort is actually a replacement for another word. Of course, with Big City Greens being a Disney cartoon, Disney had to keep it family friendly. Cricket gets in trouble in school and at home for using blort pretty consistently. Dad is trying to figure out where Cricket got that from. At the end of the episode, Grandma says "Now let's get the blort out of here".
Oh man, the way kid shows can make a joke out of not being able to say a swear word seems to always come with great results. I remember both Arthur and SpongeBob both had creative ways to do it
I might be an exception when it comes to the concept of swearing, but I've never had an issue with it and often I don't even notice it. TBH, Hazbin, HB, and HQ feel like real people talking to me, as that's typically how my friends and I talk to each other. Swears are just words that are deemed bad in society for innocuous reasons. Most of them have even become acceptable to say on television networks.
I think something that needs to be taken into account is the characters and who they are, and why they'd be using the swears they do. If a character (like the one you mentioned Capaldi playing - I haven't seen the show) is someone who is a bit more high class, or is what someone would call an intellectual, then yeah they'd use the F bomb as a means of punctuating a point. The characters in Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss are not intended to be the sort to sling barbs, and that's clear in how they speak to each other. They're uncreative souls who are in a bad situation, and don't have anything past the standard swears in their lexicon.
Also, most people (at least the ones I've met) are not especially creative with their swears. Insults, sure, a person could get real creative with their insults. But I've met a good number of people whose top quality burn is calling someone a piece of fuck. It's not exactly creative, because swearing in and of itself is not creative. Even Alistor saying "Fuck you" to Lucifer accentuates the lack of creativity in the Radio demon's thinking. Alistor is cool, and powerful, and can really poke at a person's soft spots when he gets a good read on them (ex, Vox's need to be superior, or Lucifer's failure to be supportive for so long in Cahrlie's life); but when the barbs are aimed at him and Alistor isn't prepared, he resorts to an uncreative retort. In a way, yeah, it's supposed to be jarring given that Alistor hasn't sworn by that point and who he was saying it to, but given that nothing came from it, the swear is also considered to be not a big deal.
I don't know, that's just my thought on the concept of swearing in cartoons. And I think I'd agree with what you're saying more if I hadn't heard more swaering in live action shows with nobody batting an eye at them. For example, Misfits arguably has way more swears per minute than Hazbin Hotel or Helluva Boss, and nobody ever brings it up.
*THIS, thank you!*
I was homeschooled and raised in a Christian fundamentalist cult, so I wasn't allowed to use swear words at all. Now, I don't understand why it's such a f***ing big deal (bleeping for UA-cam, not because I have any reservation).
Some people swear a lot and aren't very creative with it because that's how regular people *talk.* Why does swearing have to mean anything? They're just words, and that's *fine.*
I don't know, I think I just don't like it when people try to police language, if not the words themselves, then how often they're said or which contexts to use them in. (And I'm specifically talking about swear words, not slurs. Swear words don't harm people the way slurs do.)
I don't see why swear words should be policed. If not being policed for a moral reason, then it just comes across as "I'm smarter than you because I swear creatively/sparingly or because my words mean more than yours do" which, good for you, you don't have to be an a**hole about it.
I don't know. This video's message just didn't land well with me I guess.
@@sassylittleprophet Exactly! People in general aren't creative in their speaking. Swearing isn't any big deal.
Slurs will never be okay, and should be eradicated from language.
💯
i totally agree with this! swearing in media never bothered me, and i was a little surprised everyone was getting irritated about it when hazbin hotel dropped. i was raised with the notion that applying moral ideas to word (with the exception of slurs) simply doesn't make sense, and my parents were hardcore academics! the characters in hazbin and helluva talk like the friends i had growing up, and the people around me now. i understand why people call it 'edgy teenager speech' but... what's the problem with that? Teenagers talk like that, some adults talk like that, it's not harmful to anyone so why is so much vitriol directed towards it? It may not be the most 'eloquent' way of speaking in dialogue, but dialogue doesn't always need to be eloquent. especially in shows like hazbin where it is more in character for them to swear (and not just because they're in hell).
@@kurokura8379 I fully believe that had this been live action, nobody would have batted an eye at the swearing.
I love the concept of using swear words in an unconventional way. About 10 or 15 years ago, my best friend referred to her ex boyfriend as "a piece of f**k" and it was so out of left field that I cried laughing. Thinking about it makes me crack up to this day.
Sometimes, swearing just comes off as unnatural. If a swear fits in, sure, go for it. But I'll sometimes watch something, hear a swear, and go "that just doesn't sound like something people would say."
To me, it feels like swear words have such an importance placed on them - not only by those who think they're unacceptable, but those who think they're acceptable too. They'll enunciate them in an unnatural way, they'll throw them in for 'effect.'
Granted, I have a somewhat unique view on this due to having Tourette's since I was 7, and more specifically coprolalia (the type of Tourette's that makes you swear) since I was 10. So I was always told from an early age that swearing doesn't matter, and that it's the intent rather than the word.
Also, love the shoutout to American Arcadia! Absolutely loved that game, and that swear was absolutely perfect.
My husband and I watched all 3 of the series you mentioned and yeah there's just something about the way the dialog flows that feels slightly *off*. Sometimes the amount of swears is probably fine, but they just don't feel like they're at the part of the sentence I'd expect. Like, the swearing feels weirdly forced or not quite natural sometimes in the way of a 13 year old who is figuring out how to use profanity and hasn't quite gotten the hang of where in the sentence it goes or which sentences to put it in. It risks getting to a point that it's functionally just a filler word, like um or uh, so it just disappears into the background. Which, yeah, makes it work less well for character-defining or emphasis.
for me the frequency of swears often comes off as immature. i instantly read it as the energy of a teen trying out swearing when their parents arent around
The thick of it mentions, in my council of geeks? I'm so happy 😭😭😭😭
Also with Malcolm and swearing, because he so often does these huge cleverly sweary rants, I find it is also made so much more funny when he just bluntly drops a swear. Like, it says that he just doesn't even think this person is worth one of his good rants and I love that.
You could've also made a video called "Adult Animation Deserves Better" because I think that's also a true statement.
17:07 And suddenly there was Siobhan Thompson.
As someone who swears all the time, I think that relying on swears for emphasis is often just as distracting as overusing them. For example the single "fuck" in pg-13 movies (and even at the end of this video) pulls me out of what I'm watching to be reminded about media policy.
The swear shouldn't be the focus, the delivery should be. That's why Malcom Tucker works so well, he says everything with such vitriol. That's why Alister's outburst worked well too imo, it's not that he said fuck you to the ruler of Hell, it's that he really lost his cool for the first time onscreen. The words themselves are secondary to the context they're presented in.
On creative swears; I have so many Michael Rosen YTPs memorised that there's probably a novel's worth of great examples, but my personal favourite was done by ChickenPika;
"Why don't we go to the I DON'T GIVE A FUCK museum? We can spend all day there looking at the fucks I don't give!" Its such a genius bit of writing that you wouldn't believe came out of a decade-old shitpost. This video rules, you've got a new subscriber 🖤🖤
Also the only Vivzie creation I've seen is the HB pilot, and the funniest bit from that was when Stolas' extremely raunchy monologue is 90% censored and you can only hear parts of it, genuinely unexpected and made me laugh a bunch, especially with Blitz's reaction. It kinda sours my expectations of the whole show, cause the team know how to use swears sparingly, but they apparently choose not to :/
I feel like a lot of the problems with western animation can be summed up with "adult does not mean mature"
I remember during the Glitch X livestream, Viv mentioned that she finds swearing fun. Part of that was due to being influenced by South Park. And I think songwriter Sam Haft said that Viv's writing style is akin to gay Bojack Broadway dramedy.
So, while the swearing might be a method to let viewers know the show is for adults in some cases, I think it might just be the creators just find swearing fun in most cases. And as someone who grew up Mormon, I kind of vibe with the Hellaverse and its brand of naughtiness. But I understand where people come from when they say the swearing feels excessive.
16:20 to your point, Bojack Horseman’s “one ‘F*ck’ per season” rule made for some truly impactful, devastating moments
I actually really appreciate the casual uncreative swearing in Helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel because I grew up in a heavily religious family where one of my parents would get angry if I said something like 'screwed over'. I actually trained myself out of swear replacements and non-explicit 'cursing' to get a sense of control when I was younger, so seeing so many casual swears in a show taking place in a Christian setting feels oddly validating. It would be fun to see more creative swears because you can get as creative using expletives as not, but still, it's like, spitefully comforting.
I'm so glad you made this video since I have recently watched through all of Hazbin and Helluva Boss. I like Hazbin and love Helluva Boss, and since I watched HB second I was more desensitized to all the swearing, but I was also kinda annoyed by the amount of swearing. I love swearing and get annoyed when people act like it's a horrible thing to do (tho of course I don't do it around kids). But holy shit Hazbin Hotel has everyone swearing all the time and it gets to be way too much. Good to know I'm not the only one who thinks it's unnecessary without being all pearl-clutchy about it
I agree. Maybe it's because I am not a native english speaker but for me a high density of swearing doesn't sound casual but instead like an attempt to be edgy in a culture scandalized by swear words. Swearing is not that big of a deal in my native country outside the most formal of settings (e.g. I think most radio stations play the explicit versions of american songs and local artists don't record "clean versions" + swear jars are not a thing here). I swear quite frequently in my private life but I don't add expletives to every sentence because why would I if it's just a normal part of my vocabulary?
As someone whos had friends since highschool, and works with other people I can say with absoloute confidense that the amount of swearing in any of these shows is nothing compared to what my friends and coworkers use on a causal level.
Rewatching Helluva Boss made me realize that Hazbin kind of ruined a chunk of the Helluva humor for me. Bc if you only watch Helluva, it can be pretty funny seeing how vulgar Blitz is all the time, but it’s only that funny if he’s unique in being that vulgar, but if that’s how everyone is, the humor of how awful Blitz is falls flat.
It’s another moment where I feel like Vivziepop’s lack of restraint made a part of her work worse.
Like I get that cussing and sex jokes are her favorite kind of humor, but you’ve got to have some self-restraint and save that for when it’s most effective
I feel like the US is so behind on what adult entertainment even is, that most attempts end up being adolescent at best, and the constant swearing is a symptom of that. And this is coming from an Argentine, we culturally swear CONSTANTLY, we consider it an art form lol
Thank you for the video, Vera!
As Vera explained, the problem with adult animated series using swearing is how casually it appears. It is like these shows are trying too hard in order to earn the adult rating. "Look how edgy we are! F-bombs and s-words all the time!" Personally, I would prefer the swearing being used only during f*cked situations or when dealing with assh*le characters (sorry. Not sorry. I could not resist). I do also find weird how the words "hell" and "damn" are considered offensive swearing. But, to be fair, many christian-based religious people find swearing using "god" and "Jesus Christ" under any context offensive.
12:00 ish.
I do that all the time because I never learned to have much of a filter (mother swore like a sailor around me, father was working, didn't have much social contact in school (reasons)).
I also don't really filter myself by environment much. the only active filter I have is around people I strongly dislike.
I've known people (and _occasionally_ seen characters) who swear constantly, but it works because they have a certain _flow_ to it. It seems to be a very tricky thing to write + direct + perform well; it just sounds forced to me when either the writing or the delivery is even a little bit off. (I think it's also language-specific and dialect-specific; e.g. the québécois version is distinct, and hilariously blasphemy-forward.)
I had this thought. The "Of course they swear, they're bad people" mindset assumes one thing and implies another
What it says is that all bad people swear. Which is a... questionable assumption
What it implies is that good people don't swear. Which i really don't like as an assumption. I am from a culture where swears don't hold as much weight as they do in the US, so the implication really feels like it ignores the fact that linguistics are affected by _culture_ more than moral standing
This is an interesting point, and one I hadn't considered.
Reminds me of what I used to tell my students. I wasn't going to tell them not to cuss when they hear adults do it all the time. I told them to save it for the important stuff. Sometimes things do require a cuss word or two but typically children don't have issues that important so they shouldn't use them. They seemed to accept the explanation more than don't cuss because I said so.
THANK YOU. A friend of mine was watching Hazbin Hoten and Helluva Boss at my apartment a few weeks back and the swearing (especially in the songs) was just grating for me. I think a perfect example is how it’s used in the uncut episodes of Venture Bros. It’s either super casual, used to show character changes, or delivered so hilariously by the voice actors that I can’t help but laugh when I hear it.
Btw, this is coming from someone who definitely says f*ck way more than necessary.
I only really notice if it's especially focused on in the performance, kinda like you lay out, but also, i tend to swear in speech as punctuation, it's so entrenched in my lexicon that i have to actively make an effort to watch how I'm speaking in certain environments, so maybe I'm biased
Fab video. Weirdly enough I have some experience with this- I was in a British gangster film and the director neglected to produce a proper script (I did some rewriting with another cast member). Unfortunately this meant a lot of swearing. I have no issues with it myself (love things like Brass Eye or Susie's rants in Curb Your Enthusiasm for example) but when I agree with you that constant swearing that isn't inventive is wearing. Also some of the most iconic phrases from shows were ones where they got around censorship (Such as Ronnie Barker's use of phrases like "Naff off" in Porridge).
There's forced swearing. It reminds me of kids who aren't allowed to swear get away from their parents and over use it. Its the thing of saying it BECASUE YOU CAN rather than should it be used in what you're saying. I love swearing but I'd rather it be used a lot but not in every sentence.
I think solar opposites has a good balance of swearing, but not too much.
As someone with particular high pitch sensitivity I appreciate your attention to detail. Thanks so much. Also excellent video as always
It’s infuriating because they sometimes try to place more contextual emphasis on swearing, for effect, in Hazbin Hotel, and mess it up. Spoilers for I believe episode six?
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There’s a part in the heaven courtroom scene where Charlie, having just been given permission to continue her case, loudly exclaims “f*** yeah!”, to which Sera and Emily give her looks of disdain and shock respectively. This works, because A) they’re in a formal setting there you’d hope people wouldn’t be swearing, and B) that fits their personalities as both the highest ranking Angel on Sera’s part and a naive, very well mannered person who’d avoid swearing like Emily. Problem is, Adam is present in this scene and swears like a sailor, with no notable consequences. Yes, you could argue it’s his character and Sera + Emily would be aware of this, but the audience is left stretching what we know to fill in the blanks. There’s also that stupid “that’s what the f*** I’ve been saying!” line in the courtroom song, which just sits so utterly out of place and flows badly.
i personally think that the part where adam is meant to show corruption in heaven, and charlies response to emilys realization is to simply for emphasis.
@@jinolin9062 maybe, but the problem I see there is that Heaven’s corruption is very clear throughout the scene, so this discrepancy doesn’t add anything. In fact, it’s kinda lazy writing: a corrupt court would be more concerned with the superficial respectability as a means to masking the underlying rot; something that would be especially pertinent here since Sera is trying to hide the exorcist army from the rest of Heaven.
@Abominae we don't exactly have a full understanding of the mechanics or power structures of Heaven but I can imagine a layer you might've missed which explains why swearing coming from Charlie, an outsider and a woman, is more frowned upon than it is from Adam, who occupies a position of power in heaven and is also, not unrelatedly, a man.
a game channel I watch is doing final fantasy 7 (OG) right now and they decided to bleep the points where the dialogue had censored swears (Beetle Bailey style censors) because the words weren't determinable, and I actually thanked them for their consideration to make a bleep that wasn't jarring and painful
and I also thank you for that consideration as well. too many people don't do that and it means the world to me when I notice someone did it cos man those beeps can hurt.
I swear like a sailor irl sooo for me Hazbin hotel had the normal amount of swearing. But i agree about Harley Quinn, some episodes try too hard for swearing. swearing sometimes when it is not really that emotional
I haven’t seen the video yet because it hasn’t premiered but I don’t understand the problem with swearing? It’s how large swathes of people including kids talk
I'm on episode 2 of Hazbin Hotel and I see exactly what you mean! They're swearing like they've gotta reach a quota and it doesn't feel natural at all. As an Australian, I think they should have hired an Aussie to consult on the writing 😂
Thank you so much for bringing up the volume of bleeping. So many UA-camrs don’t pay attention to that and the number of times I got overstimulated from a video overbleeping with waaay too loud sound effects 😭😭😭
Good to know you’re a safe UA-camr when I need something to put on at work ❤️
The commenting on the volume of censor bleep some shows use reminded me of this one show that used a really shrill backup signal as a censor and that used to give me such a migraine.
ive felt that some shows will use a swear in place of a joke. im not 10 y/o anymore where just the word makes me laugh lol. honestly ive come to realize that sometimes having the swears bleeped makes it a bit funnier
also it often feels forced as opposed to flowing with whats being said
I don't mind swearing and I swear, but hate how there seems to be a requirement for adult cartoons to be as sweary and vulgar as possible, sometimes with little to no plot and tons of toilet humor.
Ironically this makes them seem more aimed at kids than kids shows do. It's why I'm more drawn to shows like Gravity Falls and Adventure Tims vs Family Guy.
That being said I think swearing is fine and especially good for Hazbin and those types of shows.
P.S. There are actually adult American cartoons from the 60s/70s but it was very niche
I am getting really sick of animation being considered childish or for kids. This is an art form that people really don’t appreciate how much time is put into it. The amount of work that it took to nail the art style of spider verse is honestly incredible. The fact that people will just gloss over it and just say it’s substance-less mindless junk clearly don’t have a single brain cell in their head.
Arg, got to wait until I wake up to watch!
But I will say going in that I don't mind swearing, but I feel like a detector goes off when it feels gratuitous/tryhard, which I find grating. For example I love the Harley Quinn animated series, but the I wondered this past season if it hadn't gotten even swearier. Something like HQ or Archer I think benefit from having amazing characters and writing which can be deep, thematic, clever. Not being transgressive because there's nothing else to bring to the table. Like a spice, the context of use can make or break enjoyment of the dish. Sometimes it's a bit off-balance but I can enjoy it anyway.
16:53 that reminds me of something Angel dust said in the pilot. "Ouch, such an insult. Why don't you come up with something creative to call me, you sack of pearly packaged horse shit."
South Park: Bigger, Longer, and Uncut did cursing really well. 'Eat penguin s**t, you ass spelunker' was one of my favourites. I had to look up what a spelunker was, but I knew all the other words.
"AnImAtIoN iS aUtOmOtIcAlLy FoR kIdS" is still a bullshit assumption.
17:24 now *this* is how the team behind Hazbin Hotel should have written Alastor’s dialouge 😂
This video reminds me of that one South Park episode (It Hits The Fan), where suddenly it becomes okay to say s*it on tv, and things go off the rails - which kind of goes perfectly with the message of this video - if you use swear words sparingly, they are so much more impactful, when you do say them.
I fully agree with what you said about the lack of creativity with the swear word vocabulary. I'm not from the US, and here in Finland, we have a quite vast collection of very usable swearwords, but you can also just say something seemingly innocent and make it a swear if you want to. My mom finds American films' and tv shows' use of swear words utterly dull - she always says you really need more than the usual s*it and f*ck.
I'm of the mindset that curse words are an integral part of language, and saying them on tv shouldn't be either bad or something you do for shock value. If they weren't made into such a big deal by concerned parents, no-one would have the need to use them excessively to be edgy.
While I've found South Park's satire and social humor to be very hit-or-miss, their movie "Bigger Longer & Uncut" was a fun illustration of this very topic, the balance between swears being ubiquitous, versus used intentionally for impact.
I feel like we have a very PG-13 way of thinking about cursing in media.
You will have the people that do think of it in like the sense of how PG-13 movies do it, using it once and making an impact because no one else says it, which works sure, but that's also kind of how we think about cursing in a general societal sense a lot of the time. Like when we hear somebody start cursing, people will be quick to cover their children's ears, or clutch on their pearls in a literal or figurative sense. I rarely curse around my parents, and the one time I did let it slip, my mom said "Where did you get all this cursing from?" And I'm just like "you have cursed at me multiple times in my life, where do you think?" I was 22 at the time.
Maybe it's just me, but in the case of something like has been hotel, where the characters do just casually curse, and it's just a part of the dialogue and the way they talk, I really think that works better in a sense to desensitize people to cursing. Specifically in adult media, cuz even Family Guy and The Simpsons and many other adult animated series thinking the sense of a PG-13 with how they use word sparingly, going back to that 13 words you can't say on television routine.
Maybe it's just me, but I feel like as an adult, you should be able to just talk how you want, you know outside of slurs because NOPE, and within the realm of adult animation specifically, you are a bit more free in your speech. Just casually cursing, letting it be a part of the dialogue, makes it feel more natural in my opinion rather than just saving it for big moments. With the case of Alastor, it's, that makes him saying fuck you to Lucifer rather impactful. Granted, you are right that it does get drowned out a bit with everyone else cursing regularly, but if you're paying attention to how he acts, then it sticks out. But then you'll have cases like in heaven with Charlie and but then you'll have cases like in heaven, where Adam is cursing up a storm the whole time, but the one time Charlie curses, Sera frowns, like she did something vulgar, when again ADAM is right there. A subtle way of showing heaven's hypocritical respectability politics, a good "Show, Don't Tell".
I rarely comment these days, but as an adult animation character would put it "holy fucking thank you for fucking leveling the fucking beep sounds"
THAT, LAST, SWEAR , WAS, BRILLIANT!!
Amazing video! Super interesting thoughts, perspective and good examples given to explain them, much love!
For me the Harley Quinn show overall earned its swears. It fit its goofy ton and the characters overall. There wasnt many moments that i was like "wow that felt off".
For Hazbin Hotel, although i respect the show. The swears felt more akward along with alot of its jokes and themes. In a way it felt like the jokes and swears felt akward and not fully thought out.
For me the thing most annoying with adult animation and cartoon that "swear too much". its almost never the amount. Its always that it feels like writers either dont know how to write something mature/funny, or they do but they lack confidents in their work and use swears to try to get there. in both cases it feels like swears are used as a bit of paint to cover over weak writing.
Hazbin Hotel's Adam felt like this alot for me. Him swearing alot does seem to highlight he is an asshole, but like the character doesnt have punch for me. Not because he is a jerk but because the way he is a jerk is more eye rolling then either like able (seto kaibi from yugioh) or distastable (like Light from death note). Swearing felt like a cheap way to make him more assholish without earning it.
I will say this is all very subjective and just my view on it.
There’s often a big cultural difference among countries with what is acceptable. I’m Australian, and along with my Scottish friends (for example), we’ve probably got a higher tolerance for certain words. In Glasgow, and parts of Brisbane, ‘c***’ is practically a term of endearment.
I can see where so much swearing in adult animation might seem too much. Like it doesn’t add anything. I get the critique and I sort of agree. When I started watching Harley Quinn animated series I wasn’t put off by the swearing. Of course I watched hazbin hotel pilot and helluva boss so it didn’t shock me. And I saw how fun and interesting the show is and genuinely entertained. My dad likes Harley Quinn too but he only made it through season 1 and 3 episodes of season 2 before he asked ‘why all the swearing?’ And I didn’t think much of it. Yeah they swear but it’s a good show and interesting story if you’re put off by swearing you’ll never get through the show.
I was never a South Park watcher but I’ve seen clips and some episodes and can see the appeal. The swearing seemed funnier coming out of little cut out bobble head cartoon kids.
Can there be too much unnecessary swearing in adult cartoons, absolutely. Personally I’ve never seen it as a big problem. If it’s your taste or not is up to you.
Thank you for the bleep volume talk!!! I swear no one realizes how jarring and painful it is!
Swearing too much gets dull. It LACKS the shock value the writers are trying to evoke. If you’re gonna curse, do it rarely, to have more impact. OR be so incredibly creative with insults and cursing that people fall out of their chairs, either from shocked cardiac arrest or sheer laughter 😊
6:23 Thing is, trying so hard to be adult kind of backfires sometimes. I remember refusing to watch Family Guy or South Park as a teenager since the humour seemed too childish 😂.
Reminds me of Torchwood series 1. The 'THIS IS NOT FOR CHILDREN look at all of the adults doing adult things. Look swearing! Sex! Bloody violence!' attitude that the writers had ended up making it feel more childish than Doctor Who 😂
Have all the swearing you want, but there's more to being an adult than swears, sex and violence. If you narrow it down to that, the show feels hollow.
Haven't gotten around to watching Hazbin yet, so I'm reserving my opinion on that one
7:48 it's a bit ironic that you ask for lower bleep volumes, yet I had to turn town the volume of the part in the beginning because it got a little too much :'D
Exactly, on top of allot of the character drama basically being either daddy issues and/or romantic relationship drama (usually bad ex) the copious cussing feels like I’m at times watching the barely disguised trauma of a teenager with a 12 year old boy sense of humor
i watch both channels so i wouldn't have even realized you used the wrong ending sentence on this video unless you pointed it out 😂
i was like yup I'll be back on council of geeks next time i need a break!
3:10 some adult cartoons in the US do swearing… weirdly?
Basically I have a sailors mouth lol and ***I*** don’t sound like that
I guess it would be a suggestion for those shows to have their own version of swear/curse words relevant to the world in which they exist. Books I've read had Tink's panties as a curse and another just used the word Light to curse. I mean, it wouldn't need to be censored because it is not a "known" curse word and it gets the meaning/feeling of the need for a curse word in that part of the script/speech.
Like the British use Bloody Hell to curse and other countries have their own ways of cursing without using English curses, but the ones who do use English curses can sometimes be funny or creative, like the statement Disgusting Sh-t (like used in the memes, etc.).
I get the use of some cursing in shows/books/music/comedy (standup), but I guess I want it to make sense and not be used to just "flavor" what is being said. I really liked George Carlin's comedy and the "song" describing the uses of the F-word because they made sense, but I don't like it when someone just keeps using curse words like every other word because they think it makes them edgy or cool (sorry can't think of a more descriptive word here).
The same thing goes for sex scenes in a visual/written medium. The scene(s) need to make sense for the plot/characters; not just be there to be in your face. I call them unnecessary sex scenes when they occur. Oh well. I've said my 2 cents.
Enjoyed your PoV. Got here by FD Signifier glad I did. I get big Hank Green energy from you lmao. Subscribed. 💯
Would you believe that it’s a semi-regular occurrence on TikTok that audio of my voice gets mistaken for Hank?
@@CouncilofGeeks okay so I wasn’t tripping. Glad to know. 😂
When it comes to using curse words in a way that helps the story, I can't help but think back to the show Bojack Horseman. On that show there was pattern the writers created when it came to the word "Fuck". It was only ever uttered in a situation where the dynamic between two characters was forever changed. When we heard the word, the audience knew, someone here is NOT going to be forgiven. As a result the audience would always speculate when, who, and how the F bomb was going to be dropped and when it did, we felt the weight of that word. When a character said "Get the fuck out." we knew right away, this was not going to be something they were going to get over. They genuinely meant that they didn't want to see that person ever again. Friendship over. They gave so much power to that one swear word just by setting that precident.
You instantly brought up a point I thought of from seeing the title.
These adults cartoons do feel like they have to establish from the get go that they aren't for kids just and I'll add that they seem to rely on excessive vulgarity throughout the show for same reasons 🤔.
Furthermore, people in the mainstream may still have the perception that animation equals for kids. Which is why some kids may find themselves watching it and the parents seeing it in passing may think "oh it's a cartoon so it's must be fine or appropriate for my kid" 🤦🏿.
I’ve studied comics and cartoons and while I haven’t done adult animation, I think what they’re trying to do is inject the same energy into swearing as they do cartoon violence. And you’re absolutely right, it does devalue it. It’s not necessarily a bad thing but it does mean that when they want their characters to curse for emphasis, they need to have them go bigger, as you suggested. Having Alastor go Shakespearean, or old-time radio with his insults, would be so good. Like if hitting someone over the head with a piano does nothing to them besides slow them down, then it’s basically a violent prank. You can’t then use it as attempted murder and expect your audience to react accordingly. You have to go much bigger with your language of violence, or of swears, in cartoons if you make violence and language part of the slapstick.
Ty for mentioning the pitch of bleeps omg
It's not a cartoon, but In Bruges is a great example of excessive swearing as a character trait that absolutely feels earned.
"You're an inanimate fucking object!"
I really like Cyberpunk Edgerunners made up slang/cursing and the overall use.
I was on a podcast called “What the Frell?” so I approve of a good made up swear.
No the attitude that “animated means it’s for kids” thing is in the UK too. Famously an entire generation of kids in the 80’s and early 90’s were traumatised when Watership Down was shown in schools and by parents all over the country. Some of us still can’t watch it as adults.
I even heard my mum and aunties saying
“It’s nice having grandkids because you have an excuse to watch animated films again!”
Which is just sad….like, there’s literally nothing stopping you from watching an animated film? My mum still makes fun of me for just openly enjoying Disney films.
that ending was * chef's kiss *
Bojack Horseman is an example of a show that uses swearing really well. They say the f word once per season and it's always at a climactic moment, like when Bojack does something completely unforgivable, where it really adds to the emotion and hits hard.
It is curious how the use of language as a marker of "adult" content still stands out more than anything else for many people. Years and years ago, my little brother was watching South Park right in our living room. Suddenly, a random character pulls out a gun, takes a woman hostage and threatens to "kill the f***ing b****" or something like that. It really took her a few seconds to process the scene, but then our mother asked, quite incredulously, "Did that cartoon just say a bad word?!". The violence didn't faze her at all, but the swearing did. I never forgot that.
BoJack Horseman uses 1 f-word per season and it just hit different
The rhythm of the beeping in the beginning made me laugh so hard I couldn’t breathe. I don’t even know why. Probably like the comedic timing of the last one really did me in.
- I was thinking on the difference of right wingers and us, in the reasoning for not wanting "insults on kids shows", or ever
- I think for us, it's a beautiness thing, not a crime thing
- We may see someone ugly, but we don't think it should be an obligation for them to change, to what we see as pretty. We may be annoyed by seeing ugly, but we never mandate prettiness... especially if it's a program I can not watch. And if others want to watch it, that's fine.
- And we don't say they /must/ be different, and maybe (not always) say an opinion about what /should/ be different, for us.
- So, we have reasons to say insulting, can come off as unelegant, too violent, too angry. And from that reasoning, think elegance, moderation, is prettier.
- But, we don't impose that.
- Conservatives, charitably, have that thought on reasons for disliking insults initially.
- But then, they /do/ impose their morals, they /do/ obligate you to be as what they see is pretty, and they do have a problem with... other people, or children, or their children, seeing, exploring, and finding out, if they want to see insulting cartoons or wtv.
- The other idiocy right wingers do, is that they /do not/ get their opinion from reflection, it's just common sense and closed mindedness
Maybe I'm alone but Hazbin Hotel felt incredibly shallow to me. It felt like the worst of early South Park like a child's idea of adult comedy without actually being for adults.
Thank you for using clips of Malcolm Tucker. He elevated swearing to an artform. Like it was his superpower. Legend.
The gold standard for swear words landing really hard for me will always be Bojack Horseman. They absolutely nailed the format of one F-bomb drop per season
Can't wait for the uncensored Nebula redux one of these days, lol
The main show this video brought to mind was Red Dwarf. If there is one show that doesn't have any 'actual' swearing, yet still feels like it does is this. Also, how inventive the insults are make them much more efficient than just saying 'fuck' calling someone a 'motherfucker'. For me, 'filthy piece of distended rectum', 'The human equivalent of a visible panty-line', and 'Novelty condom-head' would all feel much more insulting than if someone just used a swear. And they're also just funnier
For me, excessive swearing can be annoying, but what really bothers me is when these shows make everything a sex joke for no reason. There's nothing wrong with including sex and some sexual humor in an adult show, but sometimes it feels like it's trying too hard, much like excessive swearing. And it's just a personal preference that probably comes from my specific brand of asexuality. I do think it's actually a problem, regardless of opinion, when the entire joke is making fun of someone for being a virgin, though.
What I find weird is that US media often shies away from sex _unless_ it's a "joke". As if treating sex as normal is somehow too weird. And somehow a reference having something to do with sex is what makes it funny. As if pene or vag are just inherently hilarious somehow. It's like you can have sex in media, but it can't be in any way realistic, it has to be stupid. Even the "one F-bomb" allowed in PG13 movies can't be used to refer to an actual sex act.
To me the most important thing to consider, from a writing standpoint, is each character's individual voice - that is, "how would this particular character mete out their curse words? Would they swear frequently and casually? only occasionally and for emphasis? not at all?" etc. Which is why I feel that the Alastor/Lucifer moment works quite well: characters like Angel Dust and Husker may swear every other word, but Alastor has abstained completely up to that point, and I really think it's unfair to lump everyone together and claim that Alastor dropping his first ever f-bomb on the show loses anything because so many other characters swear left and right. It may be common for the show as a whole but not for this specific character. (Would that make him the anti-Malcolm?)
That said, I think you're spot-on with your other criticisms. It does seem like there are times when various characters swear for no apparent reason other than the writer felt like it, or because there were a couple syllables of lyrics needed filled in, and it doesn't seem to fit the moment or the character at all. And there is certainly nobody in the show who raises profanity to an art form like Malcolm Tucker or Chrisjen Avasarala. I don't get the sense it's about showing that _Hazbin Hotel_ is not for kids, though. I think as a whole, we're past that. I get the feeling Vivzie just really likes swearing.
I never even noticed the profanity because that's just how all the people around me always spoke and still speak
Were the moral quandaries around adult cartoons more serious and legitimate 2-3 decades ago, or were we just too young then to see through the smoke billowing from Conservative purveyors of moral panic? I see far less change in the wider political landscape or presence of "quiet part" viewpoints than in my ability to choose where I occupy that landscape (and thus shape the discourse and perspective of my own intellectual environment).
And I think this applies just as much to questions like "is adult cartoon an oxymoron?" or "does coarse language have value?" As long as there are people who want to indoctrinate children with fantasy ideals (or just shield them from the world) _more_ than prepare them for actual adulthood, we're going to continue grappling with opinions based on preserving a mile-wide chasm between those two things. And by extension, we'll keep making that transition into adulthood so much harder than it needs to be, as anything and any _one_ occupying that space is automatically evil (with post-facto justification always near).
If cultural adaptation were going to kill off the idea that cartoons are for kids, surely that would have definitively happened by now. But just like we have this idea that adult-oriented means hostile to children (which is only _sometimes_ true), we have this contrapositive that adults must outgrow _everything_ they liked as children. It's a baffling indictment of the supposed value in activities approved for children, and perhaps just misopedia: "When I became an adult, I put away childish things."
Interesting point that you make on not swearing too much as part of your "branding" - I only thought so far of cursewords as characterization devices but indeed they can apply at an episode or brand level!