@@Stockhandle123 never checking here ever. He prob doesn’t have a flush first of all so he likely checks back for showdown, occasional bluff maybe, but can’t count on that. But if he does it’s K Q or J, he will call our bet. Incredibly rare to ever get raised here. Even if he raises I’m not folding. Can’t miss value by checking tho.
@@JeffreyHaefner he likely doesn't have a flush here which is why he bluffs. he knows his king is no good and he tries to bluff you off. Like I said easiest check but not all sizing up to 400 maybe $500 max. Also he is not gonna call with the queen or the jack of clubs but he might bet small as a value bet. He
Any 1-3 player with 77 who will call the flop is looking to trap and also afraid to raise and see a club on the turn. That same player is NEVER turning 77 into a bluff on this river. He has the 8c most times here. That being said, the main mistake in this hand was the bet sizing.
Calling the flop bet isn't about being afraid lol. It's completely standard if you're a good player to frequently just flat here. Hero is repping a polarized range already with his pot size bet and when you're IP you don't do a lot of raising vs a polarized size to protect your weaker hands. A bad player isn't even thinking about turning 77 into a bluff (ie. pretending that's what they did) - opponent is obv a thinking player and a thinking player is never calling pre here with 78o
@@wirmerflagge999There is basically no difference between jamming and raising here. The minimum raise you can do is 800, which only leaves ~300 or so behind and basically just begging for a call saying "I have the absolute stones". If you have ANY bluffs here, you would jam those, so you also need to do the same thing with your made hands.
Unless he was indeed bluffing. And wanted to be seen like he was only pretending to bluff, because he wanted us future suck bluffs to keep working. None as sick as that bluff. That said, I agree. It’s mostly value. But a real sharp player could do this cuz they exactly what another sharp player would deduce.
@@salexpie hmm ... i dunno about that. if that rote Poker University wisdom were true, we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now. because if it were true, the vilian was always going to jam no matter what. and it wouldn't matter if he had 9/7 off of 7/2 of swords for fxsx.
I like the way this caller played the hand, except the end. He also sounds like a smart player. I'm calling the jam every time here, expecting to lose a small portion of the time. 1-3 players will do that with the Kc as well as sets, and pure air!
Why would you not show 77 if you have it when you show one 7 and claim 77 which is such a sick hand to turn into a bluff. He would 100 percent show 77 if he had it after saying this and showing 1 he had 78 100 percent or maybe 73 but either way he had the st8 flush with these actions
But people love the show straight flushes because they're so rare. Especially 1-2 players. He would have showed have showed the 8 of clubs if he had it
The reason is because he didn’t know if his set of 7's was good. It looks more sick if he simply shows one 7. If he showed his set, and hero says “oh that was good anyway”, then he wouldn’t have looked as “bad-ass”. Lastly, most players like to show their straight flushes. Not hide it. I believe there is a solid chance he had a set of sevens.
I think 77 is possible if the villain slow played it on the flop then the front door flush gets there on the turn. He calls hoping to boat up. Then figures the open ended straight flush is better for his range than the heroes range. That high level thinking for a 1/3 game but possible.
I see a lot of low limit players becoming more advanced due to the availability of this type of content online. A lot of them just aren't good enough yet or properly rolled for whatever reason to play higher stakes. I believe he could have had 77 which obviously has little to no showdown value on this board
No, that’s a wrong way of playing 77. You gonna lose a lot of money on flush draw there if not raising. But again, you don’t know if the guy is playing correctly. He can easily be a big fish who slow playing a set or shove with q7, j7, t7 flush type of hand on the river and think that he has the nuts. For that reason, the guy is getting 3 to 1 pot odds to call. He should call.
@MS-gc7rb If you're playing against good players staying balanced is important. Unblocking the K and having the preflop aggressor out of position betting into your flopped set isn't a terrible spot to just call. A raise is extremely strong and you could fold out hands like Q's and K10-Q. A raise you're basically targeting AK and flush draws. That other range of hands you have dominate may be able to fold out if raised.
@@thaThRONe I don’t know why qs would bet into that kind of flop oop. The only good play with a betting that having is with a club. But the en the opponent would prob not gonna fold bc of that reason. You charge them to do semi bluffing with the price you’re going to pay potentially on the turn and river. I just don’t see any EV gain from slow play 77 here. Range balance is important. But not on the spot like this potentially put your good hand in a vulnerable position with very little gain.
@MS-gc7rb I don't disagree with raising. However even a solver will tell you to mix up your play. And this a solid spot to slow play with a strong flop. As far as betting with Q's I would certainly bet this flop heads up in a single raised pot with Q's. If your opponent doesn't have a K your almost certainly ahead here. Making a pair is rare and you have 2nd pair.
I'll be honest, I can't imagine he had anything other than 87o with the 8 of clubs. It's definitely not a hand he should have had there, or played the way he did, but if he showed one seven, if the other card was also a seven, surely he'd show that too? Clearly he was intending to show a bluff, potentially to tilt the hero on future hands, or to induce lighter calls in the future, and that is far, far more effective if he shows both cards. I can't think of a single reason he'd only show one seven if he had 77, tbh.
Yup. It's 1-3. I won't quite say the cold call with 87o is standard but it's certain common. Flop, middle pair, call and see what develops. Turn, pair plus one card flush draw plus SF gutshot. Call and see if Hero is full of it. River, yeah, majority would show but he figures it's fun to mess with you.
I feel like it was 77. You're neglecting that 1/3 players also tilt easily and make crazy bluffs for no other reason than their hand got counterfeited. He's not thinking "Well if the square root of the hypotenuse says that GTO approach means I must jam here because only I can have the straight flush. He's thinking well if he doesn't have the Ac I can win with a bluff now
You are 100% correct my thoughts exactly. 1/3 players think in bi laterally in the sense they only think, bet for value r bet as a bluff. They don’t think about anything else, ranges, position, card removal. None of those things apply, just I have the nuts, bet. I have to bluff, bet.
This is one of the reasons a lot of these live hands are hard to analyze because there's so many intangibles in live play that come down to intuition and reads and game flow dynamics and all that. Like, even in games that everyone is a reg, most of the $ comes from those who tilt the least and can focus the longest. Just the other day some woman check jammed with Q10 on K10442 for like $90 more into a $1K pot after an overbet on the river (opponent had 43 and actually tank/slow rolled thinking he was never good but odds too good to fold). She wasn't doing this as a bluff. She was just making an anxiety-induced "I might as well get rid of it all if I'm gonna call anyway" jam and everyone at the table was discussing the merits of the play as a bluff and why she did it like it was a serious intentioned action (she got up from the table and left immediately).
@@Dementia.Pugilisticaexactly!! This isn’t chess or backgammon where there is always one best play.We can argue endlessly about whether to check call or bet call or whatever,if you don’t know the tendencies of a player inside out or their mood at a certain time it’s all guess work
For villain’s claim to be true, he would literally have to get in his car, drive to the casino, win a stack off of villain in a prior hand as mentioned, not raise the flop with middle set on a king high two flush board against an UTG open, call the run hoping to boat up, concoct this play in his head while facing a $400 river bet with hero having $700 bucks behind, give hero credit for bet folding Ac, proceed to run the sickest bluff in the history of this poker room, AND THEN DECIDE TO NOT SHOW THAT HE TURNED A FLOPPED SET INTO A BLUFF TO REP A STRAIGHT FLUSH?! 😂
If you are going to bet fold not sure what the point is, as Bart talked this out the villain is literally incentivized to JAM ANY TWO CARDS. Check and call any pot or less bet.
That's how poker works, though. If they're incentivized to jam any two on the river and get here with tons of stuff besides just a straight flush, you're printing so much money bet calling.
He’s lying…come on Bart lol. I’ve been playing poker 15 years. He had 8 clubs 7 spade and just tried to tilt hero and make himself look like a “whiz” by saying that. Not even remotely believable.
I believe he had the set of 7’s for two reasons. 1) most low stakes players like to show their straight flushes. 2) he didn’t know if he was bluffing with the best hand or not. It looks more crazy to only show one 7 when you have the set, because he didn’t know if hero would show AK with no club and say “oh you had the best hand anyway”.. then it wouldn’t have looked as good for the villain.
The issue here is Hero doesn't understand that you must find some calls when you bet against a stronger range and get raised otherwise you'll be utterly destroyed by good players. If Hero virtually never has 8c or 3c then Villain is printing money by jamming because Hero's folding nearly 100% of the time. You have to find some calls and Ac *IS* one because it blocks Ac3c, catches bluffs, and also catches the times Villain is tilted after getting outdrawn with a made flush on the turn. If I take this line I'm calling 100% against good players who I know will exploit here.
I would have such a hard time folding this specifically because, with this board, the only paired clubs with an 8 that make sense for that preflop call are 98c and 108c. That being said, considering the guy showed a 7, I agree with what other people have said that he almost certainly had 8c7x and just made a terrible call prefop and pretended he bluffed the river to tilt the guy. But I would've paid him off because of how many suited connectors are removed from possibility.
When the caller bets 50 on the flop (nearly pot), I’m folding 88, 99, TT, JJ very quickly as most live players do this with top pair, or an overpair to the board.
i would play this as a check call. If villain is a higher level thinker, he will know you shouldn't have an 8 or a 3 here. He'll bluff at it and we can take it down. I think it's rare for a K high flush to make the call at this level. They're going to put you on AK so often and unless you're betting really small, they're going to either fold or turn it into a bluff and push you off the hand like we were worried about at such a high frequency. I would only ever consider a check fold if villain bets massive on the end after we check. 2x pot or something like that. Pot size - 1.5x I'm snapping off and hoping they didn't runner runner some random 8club.
I actually had this exact runout once, with clubs as well I think - I was oop with AcQs, called a 3bet from the in position player, and board runs out the same (same clubs, anyway, can't remember the offsuit card), completing the open ended straight flush. That time though, I led the river and got a fold - as the opponent said after the hand there are virtually no hands he has with the 8c or 3c, as he was the preflop aggressor, and so he'd never get credit for them if he tried to bluff. He did look tempted to try, though! Wish he did, as I'd already decided he never has the straight flush there... haha
Well if you got full pot on flop, any competent player who has ki,kq would just fold. Of course recs called but down betting or checking seems like the right choice as other people will stab or telegraph there hand
how would villain ever show up here with an 8 or a 3 of clubs with your pot sized flop bet. The only hand that possibly makes sense is 88 K8 or 78o or if the player is loose. That's only 3 combos and there is plenty of bluffs here especially against a player like the hero lmao folding the 3rd nuts with 3 to 1 on a call. A mindset that players playing 1-3 never bluff or overplay hands on the river is super weak.
Bart: the reason cali has drop vs rake is due to state law. Its been a while but i believe it goes way back to the 19th century and rules on pari-mutual gambling. The cardroom isnt allowed to have a stakr in the outcome of the pot...i.e. make more money for bigger pots. Thus its a flat pre determined amount.
Generally speaking, when someone wants you to know that they bluffed you, they will show both cards. And if hes verbally telling you his entire hand afterwards, why not just show them both? Then factoring in that our river sizing was large, I just dont think this is ever anything but 7s8c. Oddly played for sure but how many 1-3 players are turning a set into a bluff?
Honestly i believe the villain. Like, can hero have 8c or 3c here? Ultra UTG? Not likely, Ac8c is pretty much the only realistic combo and even that is pretty thin, oop to everyone and first to act. But the villain could easily have stuff like Kc8c or something. The board is so scary that it does not take much to realize you can bluff big here. Bottom line is, if i, as hero, decide to bet the river, im not folding. It makes no sense to fold the best hand you could have gotten here with
Villain has almost no straight flushes either, except for terrible play that backs into the nuts, which maybe is what happened here. But for a rational player, only 89cc or 8Tcc really make any sense (and those even are surely at least raising turn sometimes), plus a few 88 which somehow float those big flop and turn bets. I'd be tempted to just call and say nh.
It's not 77. When people say this stuff they have it. He had 78o w the 8c. 13 players will play this bad. He just got lucky. Also ...he's not raising a set on this flop?? C'mon. Good fold.
This guy always has 87o there. People play offsuit connectors all the time in live poker. Why would he just show one card if he wants to show that he bluffed? From my experience he always has the 8c there if he shows the 7 🙂 Depending on sizing I would have probably check called the river to pick of his bluffs.
villian raise jammed because he knew hero wouldn't have the 8. it was an obvious opportunity to bluff. it was a bluff to get hero off AKc, which was played face up from the beginning. assuming villain has 88c is giving them way too much credit. they are not calling a $100 flop bet with 88. it was either KQcc or a set. easy call and scoop
Most players aren't calling with any club. A healthy number of players will find a bluff when checked to here or might bet out a weaker flush. Check call anything under pot.
Feels like V played 77. He calls a pot size bet on flop. Almost another almost pot size bet on turn. I just cannot see how 87o is continuing with those two bet sizes. The jam on river is a player that refuses to have his flopped set be beat by a bad run out of four clubs.
Maybe 7 8 offsuit with the 8 of clubs ? If he had pocket 7s idk why he wouldn’t just show that down to get you tilted let’s say if you had a low flush for example
I disagree that the 400 prevents bluffs and even if it does that's a bad thing. I feel like opting out of making a tougher decision by giving away value is the reason most people aren't making much at 1-2. I thought the sizing was too large on every street, I probably bet 100 on the river looking for a crying call. With the 400 you polarize yourself to a non nut hand or air ensuring you are most likely getting a fold from all worse hands. 100 encourages more bluffs, it looks like a scared blocker bet.
Good Fold. Definitely not a bluff. Most players that get a big bluff through either show it or rare cases they don’t show at all, but never have I seen someone show one card then claim a bluff. Also, check-call is probably the best line for this runout
It’s really the 2nd nuts because what hands would hold a 3 without the suited Ace? That means he has 88 and 89 of clubs. Possibly T8 of clubs. Isn’t it more likely he called 2 streets with KT-KQ with the club king?
But yea i did that once. I was pissed guy folded a straight with 3 diamond flop. I heard A J duamonds. I just showed the A so he thought he made a bad fold.
I don't think I could fold the river here unless I"m against a super nitty player. 8 of clubs is more likely in villain's range true but are there many combos of it? Pocket 8s doesn't make sense to call both flop and turn for those large sizings (though not impossible tbh). 8 9 of clubs? That's an aweful lot of clubs between 2 players. 7 spade 8 of clubs? As far as the 3 of clubs that just doesn't make sense at all other than maybe 2 3 of clubs that got cheeky. You only need to be right just over 1/4 of the time, sorry I'd have to see it, call me splashy.
Actually you're wrong. Nut holdings are determined by comparison. All 8cX are the same. Having the 9c adds nothing. If you have the 8c you cannot lose, regardless of your second card.
Only 8 of clubs villain can have is 88 with a club or A8 of clubs (which we block) or 98cc. Are we really that concerned about two combos in this configuration? Seems like people would overbluff this spot like Bart said, leaning hero toward a call.
Your subscribing tight preflop ranges to a 1/3 player you don’t know…dude clearly you haven’t played 1/3 and 2/5 very much. Do you know how many times I see people flat raises and three bets out of position preflop with 87 off? A LOT. He had 8 clubs 7 spades.
Villain may not have 77, but most people at 1/3 love to show when they hit huge hands. I don't think he had the 8c, bc he probably would have shown it to the table
Bart this is 1/3 no limit people are NOT bluff raising the river lol you don’t have to worry about that. Also most people are flatting kjo kto even k9o lol it’s not just kqs kjs. I highly suggest you put in some volume at these low stakes so you’re more familiar with player tendencies.
By betting pot on the river, hero polarized himself and gave an opportunity to a 7-7 to bluff since 8-8c would've played the hand the same way. Considering vilain is aware that hero never has the 8c
Ace is still the 3rd nuts because the 8 high and 9 high straight flush are both the 1st nuts. If anyone has the 8 of clubs, nobody can have the 9 high straight flush or a better hand, so the 8 is still the nuts
the funny thing is that if he did have 7s8c ... i think that makes this more of a call otr... bc imagine his calling range from the CO pre ... he arrives on river with a much wider range... almost 3 to 1.... just take my money if you got it idc
(V profile dependant) a sound player would not play set of 77 that way on turn. So: set of 77 crossed. Now: would 8c7x played it that way on flop AND turn? Anything but NO means YES. SO: Yes. Ia am folding. No need to grab exposed wire with bare hands to find out if it was hot wire. . Now: what is the Key Concept to PREVENT getting bluffed???
My policy - if the only hands that beat me are full house or better, then I'm jamming all my money in. I'm just gonna lose my stack if my nut flush / nut straight are beat.
I think you don't count 89 because it's not possible for 8 to run into the 89. Is if you have the "second nuts", then you still win 100% of the time. For this reason I don't think it makes sense to count them separately. I think if there wasn't a flush this would be different; then 8 can actually lose to 89, so then 89 would be first nuts and 8 second nuts.
I think everyone is giving villian to much credit. A youngish player coming in hot, a few hands into the game, had already stacked Hero? Yeah, it's entirely possible he had 77.
I love ur videos even if I only play online and live like three times a year. But I don't get what we should "learn" from this video. This spot is so fkn rare I don't even know if I was ever in this playing ~ 2 million hands a year (betting pot with the nutflush, getting then raised on a "four low-middlecard straighflush non paired board" and getting ~ 2.8 to 1 on a call). Sure you can say this is a 3rd nuts vs. (second) nuts situation, but this is a special one.
No way he had 87 off I doubt he called big bets on the flop and turn I think it’s more likely he had 77 he got scared on the turn like he said knew he had to shove river to win he didn’t have a choice like he said
@@Seriously_sirius2 correct. To have a flush, it will be 98s or 108s. Therefore he had no flush. Highly highly doubt he’s playing 87o for $25 pre at $1/3
What would you have done arriving on this river? Do you like a bet-fold? Check/call? Is this ever a check fold?
@@CrushlivePoker I would of bet $150-$200 and just called any raise
This is the easiest check call in history you check like you're afraid of the flush the villain will definitely over Bluff and you just snap it off.
@@Stockhandle123 never checking here ever. He prob doesn’t have a flush first of all so he likely checks back for showdown, occasional bluff maybe, but can’t count on that. But if he does it’s K Q or J, he will call our bet. Incredibly rare to ever get raised here. Even if he raises I’m not folding. Can’t miss value by checking tho.
@@JeffreyHaefner he likely doesn't have a flush here which is why he bluffs. he knows his king is no good and he tries to bluff you off. Like I said easiest check but not all sizing up to 400 maybe $500 max.
Also he is not gonna call with the queen or the jack of clubs but he might bet small as a value bet. He
Chk / call a psb or smaller.
Any 1-3 player with 77 who will call the flop is looking to trap and also afraid to raise and see a club on the turn. That same player is NEVER turning 77 into a bluff on this river. He has the 8c most times here. That being said, the main mistake in this hand was the bet sizing.
Calling the flop bet isn't about being afraid lol. It's completely standard if you're a good player to frequently just flat here. Hero is repping a polarized range already with his pot size bet and when you're IP you don't do a lot of raising vs a polarized size to protect your weaker hands. A bad player isn't even thinking about turning 77 into a bluff (ie. pretending that's what they did) - opponent is obv a thinking player and a thinking player is never calling pre here with 78o
Who shows one card and claims they bluffed someone? Clearly he did it for value
you would jam with the absolute nuts, rather than simply raise for value, after a pot sized bet?
@@wirmerflagge999There is basically no difference between jamming and raising here. The minimum raise you can do is 800, which only leaves ~300 or so behind and basically just begging for a call saying "I have the absolute stones". If you have ANY bluffs here, you would jam those, so you also need to do the same thing with your made hands.
Unless he was indeed bluffing. And wanted to be seen like he was only pretending to bluff, because he wanted us future suck bluffs to keep working. None as sick as that bluff. That said, I agree. It’s mostly value. But a real sharp player could do this cuz they exactly what another sharp player would deduce.
@@salexpie hmm ... i dunno about that. if that rote Poker University wisdom were true, we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now. because if it were true, the vilian was always going to jam no matter what. and it wouldn't matter if he had 9/7 off of 7/2 of swords for fxsx.
Could have been a straight or missed straight draw.
I like the way this caller played the hand, except the end. He also sounds like a smart player. I'm calling the jam every time here, expecting to lose a small portion of the time. 1-3 players will do that with the Kc as well as sets, and pure air!
Why would you not show 77 if you have it when you show one 7 and claim 77 which is such a sick hand to turn into a bluff. He would 100 percent show 77 if he had it after saying this and showing 1 he had 78 100 percent or maybe 73 but either way he had the st8 flush with these actions
Exactly, he didn't have 77
Yes simply no chance. No one shows one or none while claiming what they had and is telling the truth. It makes no sense.
But people love the show straight flushes because they're so rare. Especially 1-2 players. He would have showed have showed the 8 of clubs if he had it
People show one card all the time when they're bluffing or claiming to have bluffed just to fuck with you.
The reason is because he didn’t know if his set of 7's was good. It looks more sick if he simply shows one 7. If he showed his set, and hero says “oh that was good anyway”, then he wouldn’t have looked as “bad-ass”.
Lastly, most players like to show their straight flushes. Not hide it. I believe there is a solid chance he had a set of sevens.
I think 77 is possible if the villain slow played it on the flop then the front door flush gets there on the turn. He calls hoping to boat up. Then figures the open ended straight flush is better for his range than the heroes range. That high level thinking for a 1/3 game but possible.
I see a lot of low limit players becoming more advanced due to the availability of this type of content online. A lot of them just aren't good enough yet or properly rolled for whatever reason to play higher stakes. I believe he could have had 77 which obviously has little to no showdown value on this board
No, that’s a wrong way of playing 77. You gonna lose a lot of money on flush draw there if not raising.
But again, you don’t know if the guy is playing correctly. He can easily be a big fish who slow playing a set or shove with q7, j7, t7 flush type of hand on the river and think that he has the nuts. For that reason, the guy is getting 3 to 1 pot odds to call. He should call.
@MS-gc7rb If you're playing against good players staying balanced is important. Unblocking the K and having the preflop aggressor out of position betting into your flopped set isn't a terrible spot to just call. A raise is extremely strong and you could fold out hands like Q's and K10-Q. A raise you're basically targeting AK and flush draws. That other range of hands you have dominate may be able to fold out if raised.
@@thaThRONe I don’t know why qs would bet into that kind of flop oop. The only good play with a betting that having is with a club. But the en the opponent would prob not gonna fold bc of that reason. You charge them to do semi bluffing with the price you’re going to pay potentially on the turn and river. I just don’t see any EV gain from slow play 77 here. Range balance is important. But not on the spot like this potentially put your good hand in a vulnerable position with very little gain.
@MS-gc7rb I don't disagree with raising. However even a solver will tell you to mix up your play. And this a solid spot to slow play with a strong flop.
As far as betting with Q's I would certainly bet this flop heads up in a single raised pot with Q's. If your opponent doesn't have a K your almost certainly ahead here. Making a pair is rare and you have 2nd pair.
I'll be honest, I can't imagine he had anything other than 87o with the 8 of clubs.
It's definitely not a hand he should have had there, or played the way he did, but if he showed one seven, if the other card was also a seven, surely he'd show that too? Clearly he was intending to show a bluff, potentially to tilt the hero on future hands, or to induce lighter calls in the future, and that is far, far more effective if he shows both cards.
I can't think of a single reason he'd only show one seven if he had 77, tbh.
Most people I've played with at a 1/3 table will show their straight flush so everyone can gawk at it.
Yup. It's 1-3. I won't quite say the cold call with 87o is standard but it's certain common.
Flop, middle pair, call and see what develops.
Turn, pair plus one card flush draw plus SF gutshot. Call and see if Hero is full of it.
River, yeah, majority would show but he figures it's fun to mess with you.
@@HarruinI'm with you. He's showing the straight flush if he had it. Even the big games, players almost always show the straight flush
He would show the str8 flush. Might be a high hand
I feel like it was 77. You're neglecting that 1/3 players also tilt easily and make crazy bluffs for no other reason than their hand got counterfeited. He's not thinking "Well if the square root of the hypotenuse says that GTO approach means I must jam here because only I can have the straight flush. He's thinking well if he doesn't have the Ac I can win with a bluff now
You are 100% correct my thoughts exactly. 1/3 players think in bi laterally in the sense they only think, bet for value r bet as a bluff. They don’t think about anything else, ranges, position, card removal. None of those things apply, just I have the nuts, bet. I have to bluff, bet.
The only part I disagree is that he had 8♣️7♠️ and in this case he was betting for value and not with a set as a bluff. But same thought process
This is one of the reasons a lot of these live hands are hard to analyze because there's so many intangibles in live play that come down to intuition and reads and game flow dynamics and all that. Like, even in games that everyone is a reg, most of the $ comes from those who tilt the least and can focus the longest.
Just the other day some woman check jammed with Q10 on K10442 for like $90 more into a $1K pot after an overbet on the river (opponent had 43 and actually tank/slow rolled thinking he was never good but odds too good to fold). She wasn't doing this as a bluff. She was just making an anxiety-induced "I might as well get rid of it all if I'm gonna call anyway" jam and everyone at the table was discussing the merits of the play as a bluff and why she did it like it was a serious intentioned action (she got up from the table and left immediately).
@@Dementia.Pugilisticaexactly!! This isn’t chess or backgammon where there is always one best play.We can argue endlessly about whether to check call or bet call or whatever,if you don’t know the tendencies of a player inside out or their mood at a certain time it’s all guess work
For villain’s claim to be true, he would literally have to get in his car, drive to the casino, win a stack off of villain in a prior hand as mentioned, not raise the flop with middle set on a king high two flush board against an UTG open, call the run hoping to boat up, concoct this play in his head while facing a $400 river bet with hero having $700 bucks behind, give hero credit for bet folding Ac, proceed to run the sickest bluff in the history of this poker room, AND THEN DECIDE TO NOT SHOW THAT HE TURNED A FLOPPED SET INTO A BLUFF TO REP A STRAIGHT FLUSH?! 😂
I love it lol😂
😂😂😂😂
If you are going to bet fold not sure what the point is, as Bart talked this out the villain is literally incentivized to JAM ANY TWO CARDS. Check and call any pot or less bet.
That's how poker works, though. If they're incentivized to jam any two on the river and get here with tons of stuff besides just a straight flush, you're printing so much money bet calling.
The mistake was to polarize the river bet, giving vilain the clue that the hero actually never has the 8c.
I would have called for two reasons. 1. There are so few straight flushes I would have thought he didn't have it. 2. I wanted to see if he had it.
Ha, this would be me as well. Curiosity kills the bank account.
He’s lying…come on Bart lol. I’ve been playing poker 15 years. He had 8 clubs 7 spade and just tried to tilt hero and make himself look like a “whiz” by saying that. Not even remotely believable.
🎉
Exactly, 0% chance he had anything other than 8c7s
a 1/3 game there are all sorts of donkeys and lunatics. anything is possible. i see so many people overthinking hands at this level
I believe he had the set of 7’s for two reasons. 1) most low stakes players like to show their straight flushes. 2) he didn’t know if he was bluffing with the best hand or not. It looks more crazy to only show one 7 when you have the set, because he didn’t know if hero would show AK with no club and say “oh you had the best hand anyway”.. then it wouldn’t have looked as good for the villain.
If you get a straight flush you're showing it just for the bragging rights. Those are lotto odds.
Great interview on jungleman’s podcast. Recommended and shared with a few people. Introduced me to his podcast
The issue here is Hero doesn't understand that you must find some calls when you bet against a stronger range and get raised otherwise you'll be utterly destroyed by good players. If Hero virtually never has 8c or 3c then Villain is printing money by jamming because Hero's folding nearly 100% of the time. You have to find some calls and Ac *IS* one because it blocks Ac3c, catches bluffs, and also catches the times Villain is tilted after getting outdrawn with a made flush on the turn. If I take this line I'm calling 100% against good players who I know will exploit here.
Did you miss the part where it's 1-3? (And unless I missed it, only population reads)
@@PhilipJReed-db3zc Do good players exist at 1/3? Obviously, so take a moment to re-read what I wrote.
Not folding here. Not even considering it for 1 second.
im calling everytime as well
I would have such a hard time folding this specifically because, with this board, the only paired clubs with an 8 that make sense for that preflop call are 98c and 108c. That being said, considering the guy showed a 7, I agree with what other people have said that he almost certainly had 8c7x and just made a terrible call prefop and pretended he bluffed the river to tilt the guy. But I would've paid him off because of how many suited connectors are removed from possibility.
When the caller bets 50 on the flop (nearly pot), I’m folding 88, 99, TT, JJ very quickly as most live players do this with top pair, or an overpair to the board.
i would play this as a check call. If villain is a higher level thinker, he will know you shouldn't have an 8 or a 3 here. He'll bluff at it and we can take it down. I think it's rare for a K high flush to make the call at this level. They're going to put you on AK so often and unless you're betting really small, they're going to either fold or turn it into a bluff and push you off the hand like we were worried about at such a high frequency. I would only ever consider a check fold if villain bets massive on the end after we check. 2x pot or something like that. Pot size - 1.5x I'm snapping off and hoping they didn't runner runner some random 8club.
Bart, as for the limp in the ultimate under the gun position, in 1/3 games yes this is good to limp with AK as long as limp with weak hands as well.
I actually had this exact runout once, with clubs as well I think - I was oop with AcQs, called a 3bet from the in position player, and board runs out the same (same clubs, anyway, can't remember the offsuit card), completing the open ended straight flush.
That time though, I led the river and got a fold - as the opponent said after the hand there are virtually no hands he has with the 8c or 3c, as he was the preflop aggressor, and so he'd never get credit for them if he tried to bluff. He did look tempted to try, though! Wish he did, as I'd already decided he never has the straight flush there... haha
Well if you got full pot on flop, any competent player who has ki,kq would just fold. Of course recs called but down betting or checking seems like the right choice as other people will stab or telegraph there hand
I watched the whole interview. It was really good
I would have a hard time folding, I don’t think he has any 3cX in this configuration and with how large the sizings were probably doesn’t have 8c8x
Almost every time someone only shows one card, they're trying to play a mental game to believe something that isn't true.
But if you had it, what lie would you come up with knowing hero probably folded a high club?
how would villain ever show up here with an 8 or a 3 of clubs with your pot sized flop bet. The only hand that possibly makes sense is 88 K8 or 78o or if the player is loose. That's only 3 combos and there is plenty of bluffs here especially against a player like the hero lmao folding the 3rd nuts with 3 to 1 on a call. A mindset that players playing 1-3 never bluff or overplay hands on the river is super weak.
If you check call you can't get bluffed. Check call can get them to bet with the K clubs. Gives the check raise option according to his bet size
AHHHHHH!!! Finally, a Hollywood KC hand! My home-room! Such a great poker room. Plays big and wild and I highly encourage folks to come check us out.
This is like live 2+2. Double thumbs up.
I agree with the 400 bet. I think it’s enough to keep most from bluffing the SF.
12:15 Isn't hero on the 4th nut? Since 98cc also beats him besides just 8c or 3c.
8c with any other card is the exact same hand as 89cc.
Bart: the reason cali has drop vs rake is due to state law. Its been a while but i believe it goes way back to the 19th century and rules on pari-mutual gambling. The cardroom isnt allowed to have a stakr in the outcome of the pot...i.e. make more money for bigger pots. Thus its a flat pre determined amount.
I think it's better to check call and pick off a bluff.
Generally speaking, when someone wants you to know that they bluffed you, they will show both cards. And if hes verbally telling you his entire hand afterwards, why not just show them both? Then factoring in that our river sizing was large, I just dont think this is ever anything but 7s8c. Oddly played for sure but how many 1-3 players are turning a set into a bluff?
Honestly i believe the villain. Like, can hero have 8c or 3c here? Ultra UTG? Not likely, Ac8c is pretty much the only realistic combo and even that is pretty thin, oop to everyone and first to act. But the villain could easily have stuff like Kc8c or something. The board is so scary that it does not take much to realize you can bluff big here. Bottom line is, if i, as hero, decide to bet the river, im not folding. It makes no sense to fold the best hand you could have gotten here with
Yay another one from my area. I play tournaments here and cash at Harrahs on the MO side
I think check/call is good because you allow air to bluff and he can easily value bet the king of clubs when checked to
21:51 saved everyone time, he had a feeling
Villain has almost no straight flushes either, except for terrible play that backs into the nuts, which maybe is what happened here.
But for a rational player, only 89cc or 8Tcc really make any sense (and those even are surely at least raising turn sometimes), plus a few 88 which somehow float those big flop and turn bets. I'd be tempted to just call and say nh.
he had a set of 7's and that was the only way he was going win, just like he said, it makes complete sense... i like a check call on the river
Yo.. how can I send a hand?
It's not 77. When people say this stuff they have it. He had 78o w the 8c. 13 players will play this bad. He just got lucky. Also ...he's not raising a set on this flop?? C'mon. Good fold.
This guy always has 87o there. People play offsuit connectors all the time in live poker. Why would he just show one card if he wants to show that he bluffed? From my experience he always has the 8c there if he shows the 7 🙂
Depending on sizing I would have probably check called the river to pick of his bluffs.
villian raise jammed because he knew hero wouldn't have the 8. it was an obvious opportunity to bluff. it was a bluff to get hero off AKc, which was played face up from the beginning.
assuming villain has 88c is giving them way too much credit. they are not calling a $100 flop bet with 88. it was either KQcc or a set.
easy call and scoop
Im calling here with those odds. If deeper id do the bet fold.
When the 6 shows up, the hero could have quickly scanned the table to see if anyone had a look of disgust, meaning they folded a straight flush.
Most players aren't calling with any club. A healthy number of players will find a bluff when checked to here or might bet out a weaker flush. Check call anything under pot.
Feels like V played 77. He calls a pot size bet on flop. Almost another almost pot size bet on turn. I just cannot see how 87o is continuing with those two bet sizes. The jam on river is a player that refuses to have his flopped set be beat by a bad run out of four clubs.
Maybe 7 8 offsuit with the 8 of clubs ? If he had pocket 7s idk why he wouldn’t just show that down to get you tilted let’s say if you had a low flush for example
I disagree that the 400 prevents bluffs and even if it does that's a bad thing. I feel like opting out of making a tougher decision by giving away value is the reason most people aren't making much at 1-2. I thought the sizing was too large on every street, I probably bet 100 on the river looking for a crying call. With the 400 you polarize yourself to a non nut hand or air ensuring you are most likely getting a fold from all worse hands. 100 encourages more bluffs, it looks like a scared blocker bet.
99% of players at 1-3 are NOT turning 77 into a bluff.
Right. They're more likely to bet here thinking that set is good.
Good Fold. Definitely not a bluff. Most
players that get a big bluff through either show it or rare cases they don’t show at all, but never have I seen someone show one card then claim a bluff.
Also, check-call is probably the best line for this runout
I've played in KC. The non-thinking player pool there could absolutely show up here with 77 raising for value.
It’s really the 2nd nuts because what hands would hold a 3 without the suited Ace? That means he has 88 and 89 of clubs. Possibly T8 of clubs. Isn’t it more likely he called 2 streets with KT-KQ with the club king?
Specifically flopped sets that missed C/R on turn when flush appeared
Either check call or bet small and call after inducing bluff. If he has 88 or 89 clubs…so be it.
But yea i did that once. I was pissed guy folded a straight with 3 diamond flop. I heard A J duamonds. I just showed the A so he thought he made a bad fold.
I could see him having pocket 8s and calling flop…tanking turn because he had a club…but fuck it I’m rolling with the Ace.
That was a sick bluff…when I say bluff I’m talking about claiming to have pocket 77s.
It’s the fourth nut. 89cc is the nuts. Still, good fold. He wasn’t bluffing.
way to shout out NH!!!!
I don't think I could fold the river here unless I"m against a super nitty player. 8 of clubs is more likely in villain's range true but are there many combos of it? Pocket 8s doesn't make sense to call both flop and turn for those large sizings (though not impossible tbh). 8 9 of clubs? That's an aweful lot of clubs between 2 players. 7 spade 8 of clubs? As far as the 3 of clubs that just doesn't make sense at all other than maybe 2 3 of clubs that got cheeky. You only need to be right just over 1/4 of the time, sorry I'd have to see it, call me splashy.
89c is the 1st nuts. 8c 2nd. 3c 3rd. Ac is the 4th nuts
Actually you're wrong. Nut holdings are determined by comparison. All 8cX are the same. Having the 9c adds nothing. If you have the 8c you cannot lose, regardless of your second card.
Only 8 of clubs villain can have is 88 with a club or A8 of clubs (which we block) or 98cc. Are we really that concerned about two combos in this configuration? Seems like people would overbluff this spot like Bart said, leaning hero toward a call.
Live 1 3 overbluffing rivers is not a thing 😂
Your subscribing tight preflop ranges to a 1/3 player you don’t know…dude clearly you haven’t played 1/3 and 2/5 very much. Do you know how many times I see people flat raises and three bets out of position preflop with 87 off? A LOT. He had 8 clubs 7 spades.
Villain may not have 77, but most people at 1/3 love to show when they hit huge hands. I don't think he had the 8c, bc he probably would have shown it to the table
Bart this is 1/3 no limit people are NOT bluff raising the river lol you don’t have to worry about that. Also most people are flatting kjo kto even k9o lol it’s not just kqs kjs. I highly suggest you put in some volume at these low stakes so you’re more familiar with player tendencies.
People are proud of straight flushes, especially at low stakes, if this was 7s 8c you would have seen the whole hand
By betting pot on the river, hero polarized himself and gave an opportunity to a 7-7 to bluff since 8-8c would've played the hand the same way. Considering vilain is aware that hero never has the 8c
So basically he either had 78 with the 8 of clubs or 77. I think he had the absolute nuts
I would have happily called and just reloaded. But if I played it in that manner he would have to show me a straight flush
I used to play poker all the time I know the game has changed a lot. I feel like you call here no matter what. Am I wrong ?
89 clubs is the nuts so what it's 4th nuts?
Ace is still the 3rd nuts because the 8 high and 9 high straight flush are both the 1st nuts. If anyone has the 8 of clubs, nobody can have the 9 high straight flush or a better hand, so the 8 is still the nuts
8c is the nuts whether or not the player also has the 9c.
Otherwise you’d have to say that the nuts on JcTh6c3s2c is AcKc and AcQc is the second nuts.
At this level, people who get a straight flush typically show their straight flush. I'd say 77 or 76.
I believe he did it. I believe he bluffed you and I would do the same thing if I saw a board like that, I would absolutely no matter what you did.
Good fold
Bart one of the best there ever was
the funny thing is that if he did have 7s8c ... i think that makes this more of a call otr... bc imagine his calling range from the CO pre ... he arrives on river with a much wider range... almost 3 to 1.... just take my money if you got it idc
78 off is a bit weak for calling that pre flop raise.
I don’t know how often you run into a 3 of clubs. what is calling the flop, not A3 clubs because Hero has that Ace
(V profile dependant) a sound player would not play set of 77 that way on turn. So: set of 77 crossed.
Now: would 8c7x played it that way on flop AND turn? Anything but NO means YES. SO: Yes. Ia am folding. No need to grab exposed wire with bare hands to find out if it was hot wire.
.
Now: what is the Key Concept to PREVENT getting bluffed???
My policy - if the only hands that beat me are full house or better, then I'm jamming all my money in.
I'm just gonna lose my stack if my nut flush / nut straight are beat.
Not to nitpick, but he actually has the fourth nut hand, not the third. The unmentioned 8-9 of clubs being the absolute nuts.
I think you don't count 89 because it's not possible for 8 to run into the 89. Is if you have the "second nuts", then you still win 100% of the time. For this reason I don't think it makes sense to count them separately. I think if there wasn't a flush this would be different; then 8 can actually lose to 89, so then 89 would be first nuts and 8 second nuts.
This is 100% 8c7s in my mind, good fold
@@ryanmundt8489 yes if he had 77 he would've showed both.
This is a hand that you just say fk it and call
Oh man I def think this was a bluff n I’m calling almost every time here
People are usually happy to show a straight flush
I think everyone is giving villian to much credit. A youngish player coming in hot, a few hands into the game, had already stacked Hero? Yeah, it's entirely possible he had 77.
If hero had bet smaller at flop or turn, trips would have raised?
I’m not check- calling, I’m betting 300 on river and putting pressure on him
I love ur videos even if I only play online and live like three times a year.
But I don't get what we should "learn" from this video.
This spot is so fkn rare I don't even know if I was ever in this playing ~ 2 million hands a year (betting pot with the nutflush, getting then raised on a "four low-middlecard straighflush non paired board" and getting ~ 2.8 to 1 on a call).
Sure you can say this is a 3rd nuts vs. (second) nuts situation, but this is a special one.
If he had 78 with the 8 of clubs, I think he would have shown that hand.
It's very rare players are embarrassed to show a straight flush.
It was a straight flush. He would've showed both On a bluff.
Interested if there was a high hand bonus, if so, def would have shown the 8c if he had it
I'm just going all in here, if he has 8 or 3 of clubs, so be it. Period!!
Plot twist: the villain's other card was the 2h.
I’m calling and saying that if the poker gods wanted me to lose that hand then it’s not gonna be my night. These aren’t high stakes.
Tuff
Why would he have played 7-7 like that, cause 8-8 with the 8 of club would've been played the same way?
78o 100% I wouldve said the same thing
Why would 77 play this way lmao
No way he had 87 off I doubt he called big bets on the flop and turn I think it’s more likely he had 77 he got scared on the turn like he said knew he had to shove river to win he didn’t have a choice like he said
The Ac is not like having the Qc. Nobody gunna have the 3c. And super unlikely an offsuit 8c. Has to be 98s or 108s that’s it. Nothing else.
However: villain SHOWED the 7 of spades...
@@Seriously_sirius2 correct. To have a flush, it will be 98s or 108s. Therefore he had no flush. Highly highly doubt he’s playing 87o for $25 pre at $1/3
@@JeffreyHaefneron the other hand, I highly doubt he’s showing just the 7s if he’s claiming to have 77. You’d just show both.
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj I agree…. That part is questionable….
Way too small of an open raise. Should either complete for limp raise or raise to like 50
If you bet 400 you only get called by hands that beat you….
Some of the things Jungleman said were strangly naive.