I'm so tired of hearing "omg it's such a bad message to send to young girls" young girls can be fascinated with bad messages and want to watch a train wreck sometimes. Why is nobody complaining of how much male violence young boys are exposed to through their media consumption? Nobody bats an eye. I liked Twilight as a child (then I started hating it because I was a pick-me teenager) and yet I never wanted an Edward or a Jacob. Even as an 8 year old I could separate fiction from reality.
Yes, the attitude seems to be that we should protect girls from the things men will do to them, rather than empower girls to protect themselves. Very "feminist" 🙄 Thanks for the watch!
@@themorbidzoo Thank you for the video! It was really well written, thought provoking and entertaining. It's such a strange trend to me, this whole idea that girls and women somehow internalize fictional stories in a unique way. It reminds me A LOT of the constant idea that any new communication/form of expression, such novels themselves, would lead to some sort of hysteria due to women being unable to separate fiction from reality. It seems that idea never gets old
@@atlaskat7980 I think it literally comes from patriarchal insecurity. If men in power can't use "protection" as an excuse, then what do we need a patriarchy for? 🤔 Always fun to see feminist scholars shill for the patriarchy, ha
@@themorbidzoo it's kinda surreal to see some of the supposedly feminist takes that have been produced in the last decade or so. I seem like a conspiracy theorist but a lot of it seems almost like infiltration lol, like a CIA plot to take it down from the inside. Like you say, as if it's the patriarchy talking with a coat of feminist paint on the words
I watched this after having my heart broken for the first time and having someone tell me "hey, it's okay to feel hurt. it's okay to be permanently changed because you love someone" was groundbreaking to me. thank you so much
To be born good, tf lmao. Because people think overcoming your evil nature through great effort is somehow better, we still have tortures, and serial killers, and rapists, and abusive people, and pedophiles, and all those disgusting ass humans in our world, rather they overcame their evil nature or not. I understand the message, but the message is honestly stupid, I'm sorry lmao
Who knew 15 years after the first book came out I’d still be watching twilight commentary. Both my preteen self and fully grown adult self appreciate all the work and research you did for this video. Amazing job as always!
So as far as the woods go, Edward left Bella within view of the house. He didn't abandon her in the woods. But Bella was so distraught by his leaving, and wondered deeper into the wood looking for him until she got lost.
@@HanhNguyen-uk8bchave you ever considered that you are lucky, not superior to others, for being good at spelling? Elitism is lame as shit. Criticize others on their ideas, not minuscule spelling errors.
Another concerning criticism that I've run into a few times is that Edward sucks because he won't have sex with Bella until they're married. This tends to come from people who express very normal, healthy views on consent and sexuality, but then they turn around and make fun of Edward for being so old-fashioned and frigid. That just really bothers me. Yes, making a big deal out of virginity and purity is not good, but saying that Edward's a bad person because he won't bone his girlfriend is frankly appalling, especially once we see what happens when he does. The double standard in this situation is ridiculous. On a separate note, one thing I love about the Twilight franchise is the side characters. Characters that could easily be throw-away plot devices get mini arcs and moments to shine, like Angela asking her crush to prom. Jessica is the ditsy girly girl, but she deconstructs a zombie movie outside the theater and gives a thematically relevant speech at graduation. Charlie is the dad with a tangentially-plot-related job, but he also feels inadequate as a father as he struggles to connect with Bella. Rosalie is the disapproving relative to be won over, but it's because of her traumatic past and complex character motivations. Leah is the girl werewolf, but we see her grapple with her identity as part of the pack. I care about Seth and Bree and Kate and Garrett and I would literally die for Alice, and it's impressive to me that it takes so little screen time to be emotionally invested in these often understated characters.
Edward is over 100 years old. He is going to be old fashioned so I don't understand how people are complaining that he doesn't do the thing with Bella and him also being so chastised. People cant decide lol. Then also him being chastised is somehow controlling or something Xd
The thing is...a lot of young and religious people who are taught to save sex for marriage often struggle to be intimate. Mostly because of shaming methods. Not that this is the specific case for Twilight but I feel like putting such an ultimatum on a person is weird.
@@katgreer6113 What do you mean waiting for "shame"? What I meant is that some religious groups with fundementalist views preach about vieginity until marriage . While doing this they shame everyone who does have sex before marriage. They also shame people who masturbate or watch porn and claim its bad and sinful It IS a thing that happens. It IS the shaming methods from the religious culture that create feelings of insecurity about bodily autonomy. It IS also common that sex education and consent is swept under the rug so a lot of people have no idea how it works. Purity culture put a lot of pressure on young women to give birth and men to be leaders as soon they are married. The culture has lead to people jumping into marriages very fast at a young age just because they fall in love and want to have sex. Imagine if everyone told you, you are bad and sinful if you have sex or masturbate before marriage and suddenly you are supposed to have sex with someone after a wedding ceremony? Imagine if you have married someone and then figured out that the person you just married is almost a stranger? "Oh welp, I actually don't click well with this person and now we are married and we have a kid on the way." Its these situations I meant when talking about waiting for marriage and feeling shame. Fine if a person has decided on their own but if the decision comes from a fundamentalist tradition its something else. Its no longer a preferense but something forced upon someone else.
@@PeregrinaNot an ultimatum but more like consent. If he doesn't want to have relations before marriage it's absolutely his choice. Bella can choose to agree to it or not. He wasn't forcing her to, she was free to make her decision.
As a romance writer, Bella and Edward actually kind of have a good arc! It's not necessarily well-written (although to be fair SMeyer does have her moments; New Moon's blank pages for Bella's depressive episode is perhaps melodramatic but also...literally the best way to express the things depression does not only to your subjective experience but also to your memory) but a girl who has found human connection to be unreliable because it always ends up hurting her and a boy who has actively avoided connection out of fear of hurting people both realizing that the risk is what makes that connection important and they'll both be hurt and hurt others no matter what, so they may as well attempt connection and happiness...it's good! It's a great "the same solution to opposite problems" set up! The fact that the external threats to their relationship are easily overcome when they work together is (or should be, with writing that supports it) a great underlining of the theme and the lesson they both need to learn! They struggle for longer than many couples because instead of each having something to teach each other, they are grappling with the same problem and not necessarily keeping pace! Also a girl from Phoenix falling in love with a vampire IS intrinsically hilarious and interesting for the sheer "wait, how is that going to work?" It is kind of a shame that Meyer's writing often didn't keep pace with her ideas, and that no one ever reined her in on the uhhh horrific racism present in multiple worldbuilding decisions, but like. It's a fundamentally relatable and compelling story. It's a little goofy and sometimes melodramatic, but it's both a teen romance and a vampire story. Goofy and melodramatic are both going to happen!
Exactly! Despite the many flaws and some terrible writing decisions, it's also kind of genius to write a story about a vampire battling his stalker homicidal tendencies as he experiences his first love. Weirdly enough, I think Edward is supposed to be invasive, controlling, intense, arrogant and kind of creepy. He's a vampire after all. The part where it goes south is the fact that Stephenie failed to write an arch where the characters recognize the problems, learn and then overcome them. The story never digs deep enough into him being a real danger for Bella, not just a protector, how awful Edward was sometimes, and the nuances of that relationship. And don't get me started in the werewolves, Jacob's character and the quileute tribe, . The fact that publishers kept trying to turn Stephenie into the new JK Rowling also didn't help. She clearly didn't care about vampire politics, universe lore and battle scenes and just wanted to write romance, so the big picture plot was a wild ride. There's a huge difference between the book she wanted to write, the saga the publishers wanted her to write, and what we ended up reading.
@@novakitty1619If I recall correctly, there was something to the tune of "vampires can't be Black because they must be pale and beautiful." One hopes she's learned better in the past decade and change. Honestly, I hope she watches Castlevania: Nocturne one day. Those vampires??? Beautiful, sublime, terrifying, threatening, brutal, powerful, incredible. With a dash of romance! And politics! And abolition! And omg the themes! Everyone who likes vampires should watch this show, honestly.
"sometimes when i watch press junket interviews i feel like im watching a performance art piece on the meaninglessness of human connection" you're right, Robert seems sweet and genuine {and now i understand why i was endeared by Edward in the movies}. watching him fed to the soulless like Hollywood machine im wincing..
I'm scared because right now I'm reading Twilight, and I'm actually... surprised... shocked... that despite all its flaws and weird quirks it's a thoroughly enjoyable experience. The plot devices are fun, the tropes are played with in ways I haven't seen yet, and S Meyer (for all her faults) struck gold.
@@tffnyc1033you’ve gotten things mixed up. 50 shades was originally twilight fanfic. twilight was not fanfic the idea supposedly came to Stephenie in a dream
I just found this and really love it. I'm someone who was a tween and teen during the age of Twilight and I unapologetically loved it. As I got older the criticism got through to me and I was embarrassed that I liked it as a kid. Now I'm 28 and revisiting the series so I can make my own opinion. And guess what, I do really enjoy it!. It's lots of fun. And like many people say, I wouldn't want so.e of Edward's behaviors in a real-life relationship. But are we forgetting that he is a vampire? Some of his behaviors make sense in that context. And I feel the real fantasy lies in the fact that his base instincts tell him to kill her, but he loves her too much to follow through. That is fun, romantic drama right there. Just my two cents.
my thing on the scene after they do the do and she's bruised is only one opinion: She seems fully into it tbh. She isn't acting wounded or scared, she wanted more of that exact thing. Edward was the only scared one tbh
Edward cannot sadly understand he is more than a "monster" or the worst person alive. He can be good/is good but cant see that. For example he saved Bellas life in the first film/book by sucking out the venom but somehow twists it to him almost killing her. He saved her but thinks he hurt her by saving her? Make it make sense Edward
Yeah, it's kind of the most realistic personal interaction in the series. I'm not particularly a fan but the way Edward is fully self involved about Bella's physical and moral safety is deeply real.
Unsurprisingly, the submissive fantasy written by a submissive woman for the stated purpose of entertaining herself has a somewhat accurate portrayal of a very normal submissive/masochist experience: being _far more into it_ than the partner, who probably doesn't want to hurt you in the first place but is willing to try it anyway because they love you. Really, her subsequently having to try _very hard_ to convince him that she was in fact having fun and would very much like to do that again just sells it better to me. I always thought it was a very wholesome depiction.
Edward just really needed some good top aftercare that Bella didn't yet know how to provide. It always struck me as essentially two baby kinksters wading through the muddy trenches of a new dynamic. Nothing inherently, permanently wrong with it, it just takes time, trial and error, and most of all loads and loads of good communication to get things right.
There is an undercurrent of Mormonism within the Twilight universe, how much is intentional and subconscious on Myers part I’m unsure. However, Roman Catholicism was the literal bloodline within almost all of Anne Rice’s books. I always thought that the Catholic tone of Interview with the Vampire was so potent it was almost impossible to understand the themes without yourself being Catholic. Rice is considered a literary genius whereas Myers can’t exist without a level of criticism disproportionate to her abilities.
@@leahscontemporaryedward and bella get married without ever having lived together or anything. that’s not a criticism but it’s pretty common for mormons. also bella’s canon dress-sense is just so painfully mormon.
@@tonoornottono it's pretty common with alot of people all over the world. This is the kind of stuff that happens when you reach too hard to find a connection
@@leahscontemporarymany years ago when the first twilight movie was in theaters Meyers had a page dedicated on her website to Mormonism and links to information about the church. I don’t know her motivation as at this time it was becoming common knowledge that she was a Latter Day Saint, and it’s possible she wanted to address her beliefs in a passive manner. Edward and Bella having an eternal marriage sealed with children is very much a Mormon belief, and I always saw this aspect as being very much related to Myers beliefs. This doesn’t make the books bad or negate her talents as a writer, it’s just an observation.
When ever someone hates on Robert Pattinson because of how he talks about those movies, I remember that clip where Tyra Banks demands that he bite her neck on her show, and you can see the final ounce of joy in his life leave his eyes.
The narrative went out of its way to say that edward was basically 17 forever. When anime did this with thousand year old 8 year olds, people accurately identified that as literally a child, but when it’s a dude suddenly he’s a predator?
thats not what the comment above was implying. It has been stated in the twilight saga that vampire children were eliminated without exception, because they wouldn't grow up mentally/physically and therefore retain their infantile behaviour and couldn't be taught self moderation. Therefore Twilight makes it more than obvious that Edward, even as a 100 year old vampire, retains both the body and mind of an adolescent young man. @@talia9895
@@talia9895I'm sorry, I know this is not your point but this comment rubbed me the wrong way. It's essentially reads as "it's better to be attracted to someone with an adult's body and a mind of a child than someone with a child's body with a mind of an adult" which is. Uh. Not great? Like, child predators are not bad because of the aesthetics being weird or whatever, it's because of the trauma they cause since children are not mature enough to consent. (Btw, there are actually illnesses that can permanently make you look like a child. And there are a lot of adults looking like teens, and teens looking like adults. I don't like how we recently became so focused on the "aesthetic" of a real and serious problem (also, lowkey driven by all the radfems saying shit like "if a man likes shaved women they're a pedo" as if that was remotely similar in any way) instead of the issue itself.
@@panonymousbloom5405i feel this as a 20something who keeps getting mistaken for a highschooler. Those kinds of opinions just seem kinda infantalizing and straight up bodyshaming. Like baby faced adults aren't be allowed to be loved by fellow adults bc of they could be marked as "pedo". Also, I have a friend older than me who has been stuck with the height and appearance of a child bc of a mishap with their growth hormone during a surgery. I try to take them seriously in between doting on them
Applause for voicing this point so eloquently! Ever since the Twilight Renaissance when people finish off their retrospective with "well, the thing ain't good, but it made people happy so... okay" I felt a bit off. Baby talking to teenagers isn't great, but like you said, everyone to a certain extent went through something that felt like Twilight. Growing up is confusing as hell, and making decisions for the first time in your like regarding morality, acceptance and so on is even worse. So thank you, from the bottom of my heart, on taking the stance that it did have a point, even if most people seem to dislike the point it tried to make!
All I’m saying is this series had a huge cultural impact and the only reason it gets as much hate as it does is because it was enjoyed by primarily teen girls. And we all know that teen girls are *never* allowed to enjoy things sans ridicule.
Great point! As a Beatles fan, reading old press clippings from the 1960s, so much of the poo-pooing of their music was "it's so stupid even teen girls like it!" Now, it's just seen as great music.
Honestly, my ardent love for Twilight as a 13yo and my friends' hatred of it cast away the illusion I had of other people's tastes and opinions. I realised people can't be trusted to determine what my tastes are. Just because my friends find something silly (and only because it is trendy to find it silly) doesn't mean I will find it silly.
except for the racism, cultural appropriation, genuine and deep sexism, misogyny and conservatism present in the series…yeah. I’m not saying it can’t be enjoyed, or that it’s not enjoyable like I’m absolutely willing to believe that people who enjoy the series have considered these issues, or accept that ppl occasionally want something to enjoy uncritically, but reducing criticism of twilight to “ppl can’t let teen girls enjoy things” is super reductive when the series has such deep rooted problems.
@@charlotte2845 oh no those criticisms are absolutely valid and should be talked about. But those aren’t the criticisms that 99.99999% have for it. My comment was addressing that type of criticism.
If twilight was really patriarchal propaganda I don't think Meyer would have ever written a gender bent version in which the male Bella is just as fragile and clumsy and the female Edward is just as formidable and sexy
To be fair, (taking into account Mormon ideology-which Meyer believes in, as well as, impressed upon the book) it’s not that far out to say twilight reinforces patriarchal ideals. Most of society thinks in such a way that falls in step with patriarchy, and twilight is no different. Is it a sin? No! Twilight can absolutely be framed as an entertaining, romance franchise. However, the gender-bent version didn’t do anything to press upon the status-quo. It really was just a story of a vampire girl with her boyfriend, and the ending and overall storyline was entirely different. It’s hard to compare considering the OG plot, but tbh, there’s nothing from meyer’s work that could be directly considered feminist. Which, again, is totally fine!
@katie-gf5wq well you've just come hate then. I think her writing is intelligent and well constructed. But back to that first point, the fact is Stephenie Meyer directly states there is no overarching Mormom ideology anywhere in those books. In fact she seemed to intentionally try to avoid Mormonism in the story. In her own words: "When I hear or read theories about Bella being an anti-feminist character, those theories are usually predicated on her choices. In the beginning, she chooses romantic love over everything else. Eventually, she chooses to marry at an early age and then chooses to keep an unexpected and dangerous baby. I never meant for her fictional choices to be a model for anyone else’s real life choices. She is a character in a story, nothing more or less. On top of that, this is not even realistic fiction, it’s a fantasy with vampires and werewolves, so no one could ever make her exact choices. Bella chooses things differently than how I would do it if I were in her shoes, because she is a very different type of person than I am. Also, she’s in a situation that none of us has ever been in, because she lives in a fantasy world. But do her choices make her a negative example of empowerment? For myself personally, I don’t think so. In my own opinion (key word), the foundation of feminism is this: being able to choose. The core of anti-feminism is, conversely, telling a woman she can’t do something solely because she’s a woman-taking any choice away from her specifically because of her gender. “You can’t be an astronaut, because you’re a woman. You can’t be president because you’re a woman. You can’t run a company because you’re a woman.” All of those oppressive “can’t”s. One of the weird things about modern feminism is that some feminists seem to be putting their own limits on women’s choices. That feels backward to me. It’s as if you can’t choose a family on your own terms and still be considered a strong woman. How is that empowering? Are there rules about if, when, and how we love or marry and if, when, and how we have kids? Are there jobs we can and can’t have in order to be a “real” feminist? To me, those limitations seem anti-feminist in basic principle. Do I think eighteen is a good age at which to get married? Personally-as in, for the person I was at eighteen-no. However, Bella is constrained by fantastic circumstances that I never had to deal with. The person she loves is physically seventeen, and he’s not going to change. If she and he are going to be on a healthy relationship footing, she can’t age too far beyond him. Also, marriage is really an insignificant commitment compared to giving up your mortality, so it’s funny to me that some people are hung up on one and not the other. Is eighteen too young to give up your mortality? For me, any age is too young for that. For Bella, it was what she really wanted for her life, and it wasn’t a phase she was going to grow out of. So I don’t have issues with her choice. She’s a strong person who goes after what she wants with persistence and determination."
Bella may want what she needs from the beginning, but there is conflict in that her wishes are not accepted by others, including the one who can grant them. In this can be seen a story of a woman who knew how she wanted to live her life but had to stand strong in the face of conflicting opinions from everyone around her who thought they knew better, as well as having to make the choice of a life she herself preferred rather than living for someone else (Charlie). In that sense, Twilight is feminist.
That's the way I always saw it. Bella is a character with a lot of agency and the end gets what she wants, in spite of the disagreement of the males around her. I would say that's pro feminist!
as someone whos been driven as long as i can remeber by just a desire to love and be loved its not easy sticking with this path, sure theres been lots of pain and i have been changed by it, but i tried others being a # gielboss and that was much worse hurt me without any upside and was nothing i wanted in life, now im in a poly relationship with 2 wonderful partners and never felt more right, the concepts many self proclaimed feminists have of what is and isnt valid to want exclude women like me and are often extremely patriarchal ironically, treating being driven by love and desire or art as frivolous, unimportant, and to some maybe those are but to me even with all the struggles ive been through to get here (which mostly came from circumstances of being forced to try to live a life that wasnt about love and passion that wasnt mine) i wouldn't choose to live another way, i couldn't this is me and always has been, and to me tryna be the head girlboss feels unimportant a struggle with no real payoff not one that matters to me, some of this is no doubt informed by the difficulty i face in those things being higher than most due to disability, but in the end regardless of reason i exist and i choose this and have to fight to choose it over and over against a world that tells me i shouldn't that i need to be something else, feminism should be about freeing women to choose their own path not forcing every person to be a trailblazer, cuz thats not everyone, its ablest, and sexist to assume traditionally fem things have no value, they do have value it just shouldnt be forced on people to be any one way
That actually fits really well with the reading of Bella's arc being her growing up. You could say in some sense she's being infantilized, and she has to push back against that to grow up.
Absolutely gorgeous conclusions. I always identified with Bella because I've always been easily attached and overly forgiving of flaws and easily emotionally damaged by abandonment and insecurity in relationships. I didn't think their romance was aspirational, it's relatable. The powerful beautiful man with the power to hurt you beyond repair? Yeah I've had that... But the aspirational part was that Edward WANTED to be good for her, he wanted her to have a happy healthy normal life and he made her a stronger version of herself through his support. And your partner making you stronger doesn't have to be misogynistic... He does have a moral code and classical values that are rare in society today. He's not possessive or controlling. This is Edward's first relationship too, he's just fell into a path of pain paved in good intentions.... Which is more than you can say for many men who have murky intentions the whole time
Exaaaactly. Relatable, not aspirational. It's a fucked up implication of a lot of the criticisms of Twilight that if you fall fast for a guy and you don't immediately bail when there's a problem in the relationship, whether or not you should, there's something very wrong with you as a woman. Some people you fall for actually are bad for you and will make your life worse, but it's lunacy to suggest it's always that easy to recognize a good relationship from a bad one. That's what's dangerous about relationships to begin with. They require vulnerability, and vulnerability is by definition putting yourself in a position to be hurt. It's insulting to suggest that the way girls and women reacted to Twilight was because they all want to BE Bella, rather than just seeing their own experience in her. Thanks for the watch!
I honestly always thought Edward was a complicated character for good reason, he is a noble man essentially a hero placed in the circumstances to be a monster...yet perseveres to let his higher nature prevail. Critics never talk about the struggles of this complicated character, as a writer I think Stephanie Meyers was on to something. In my opinion his character is relatable to both men and women, especially with the struggle of choosing our better nature instead of what comes easy.
It's also quite nice how Twilight and Midnight Sun complement each other as "coming of age" stories for both Edward and Bella. Edward battling his stalker homicidal vampire tendencies as he navigated his first love, understanding attraction, jealousy, insecurity, and learning boundaries as a mighty powerful and lethal being, was kinda great storytelling. Bella being a girl who had to step up where adults in her life couldn't, becoming a teen who couldn't quite relate to her peers, then going to the very same city where her mom felt pressured into a traditional housewife role, but finding some empowerment and release from patriarchy by becoming a vampire and entering a community where everyone was equally capable, strong, beautiful and rich could have been a quite interesting and progressive take. Weirdly, I think that Stephenie Meyer was trying to explore that in her own very flawed way. And I might die on this hill, but I can see how in Eclipse Stephenie really tried to build an arch to show Bella and Edward working towards a healthier relationship. Bella finally realized that Edward wasn't perfect, started to establish some boundaries and trust her own judgement. Edward started to realize that a lot of his creepy controlling behaviors towards Bella were not just for protection or with her best interest at heart, but also motivated by patterns and feelings he didn't recognize. Both tried to communicate and have important conversations, learning how to honor each others needs and find compromises. Of course all of that was influenced by some degree of wrong or dangerous beliefs about race, gender roles, love, marriage, sexuality and whatnot, and that might have something to do with Stephenie's religion, community and upbringing. But ultimately, she just wasn't the super reactionary mormon she was painted to be, and it doesn't seem like she was trying to push any anti-feminist agenda.
She has actually stated that Bella was never meant to be a feminist icon, but rather a “normal” girl. And she also stated that, to her, the idea of feminism is the ability for a woman to chose what she wants. And that is exactly what Bella did, say what ever you want about Bella and her choices, but she is the one who decided to make them, no one made those decisions for her. So in that way, Bella is a feminist, just not a feminist icon who is destroying all previous held beliefs on something, she’s just a young woman who chooses how to live her life…and later afterlife. Also, Myers has also stated that she sees anti-feminism as people saying that you can’t do something “because you’re a woman,” and nowhere did Bella ever say or do something with the mindset that she couldn’t do something because she was a woman.
Edward has always been my favourite character. He is the original "man written by women" because he is so understanding, committed, and more importantly devoted entirely to Bella and her independence, wants, and life. He is the dream tortured heart-throb, and Robert Pattinson did an excellent job portraying him as such.
Yessss! He’s a fantasy, but a caring one. He’s okay with Jacob kissing Bella because he’s so fully committed to Bella’s happiness that he wants her to be with Jacob if that’s what makes her happy. It’s why he doesn’t want her to be a vampire, he wants her to have a normal life outside of him and he eventually realizes that, “Hey, maybe she is right for wanting to be a vampire, maybe I should trust her to determine for herself what is best for her.” He capitulates to having sex with her before she turns because SHE wants it, but waits until after they’re married because for him that’s a hard line. They legitimately compromise.
Pretty much the only criticism you _can_ level at Edward as a person is that he really is just _too perfect._ He is for a very specific kind of person(Meyers herself, namely) quite literally the platonic ideal of a perfect husband, complete with eternal youth to spend forever with him.
“Too perfect!?” Oh for the love of god - no! May I remind you of at least two lines that come out of this stalkers mouth. “I just like watching you sleep.” - Edward Cullen “I was right next to you the whole time Bella” - a very gaslighting Edward Cullen He is so creepy dude, he’s also violent, obsessive, and possessive. He is a textbook abuser. Even if it’s not physically he is extremely emotionally abusive. I’m not saying he’s a bad character, or it’s bad to like him, that’s totally fine! You can have a crush on a fictional character that is a little less than healthy in the head, but when you start to normalize and excuse awful behavior, it sets the tone for that awful behavior to leave the book and to be normalized in real life. Don’t do this, let the behavior stay in the book.
I think the only flaw in the twilight saga is that Bella is mostly driven by her feelings for Edward, and she has no more personality apart from these two boys she fell for, we don’t get to see her interests or goals or develop real friendships
A part of the apeal of the book for me was the fantasy of never being sick or poor and having a family with unconditional love. Like, i enjoyed the romance, for sure. But basically the concept of having a life that didnt have any of challenges I faced IRL? That was amazing and I dont see it as talked about. Bella didnt get a boyfriend, she got a lifestyle.
This 🤌🏾 Like yeah the relationship was nice but I was parentafied like Bella. Dealt with foster care, I was moving when I got the book out it down a few months and came back regretful that I had. I loved the Cullens, the idea of that family and the escapism they provided. Bella also touched on this a bit in New Moon, their leaving was like a funeral because her family left her. More or less that’s what she said. She ended up with the wolf family but it wasn’t the same. I can’t explain it right but I think I get what you’re saying. Bella was writing to be relatable. She wasn’t really exceptional in the human world anyways and she fit exactly where she wanted to be. I think that’s ultimately what made her relatable.
The fear of relationships doesn’t only happen in romance but family and friendships as well. I always admired how Edward swallows his wants and impulses and hurts for Bella’s sake. He is committed. And it’s something I experience everyday with any kind of relationship. Feelings and my own nature sometimes go against true love and it’s an internal fight
Omg yesss. The idea of commitment not as sacrificing your own needs but as suppressing your worst impulses is a surprisingly sophisticated message, and an important one
this captured so much of why I love the series and I always like describing the series as having great concepts without great execution (which is what fanfics are for) but honestly, thank you for this, this is a really great video.
Yeah! I think it’s kind of touching that a series with these themes was such a cultural event despite how mediocre the execution is ha. Thanks for the watch :)
I used to think why is Edward and Bella’s age gap such a problem when ppl love couples like Kagome and Inuyasha? She’s from modern day Japan while he’s from medieval Japan, and I haven’t heard one complaint. When Wendy decides to grow up and Peter Pan comes back and takes Jane to Neverland, is that creepy? Is he seen as an old man stuck in a child’s body? So I’ve just come to the conclusion that everyone hating on Bella and Edward’s “age difference” are just picking and choosing which age gaps are okay and not okay to them
Yep, I think this is pretty much it. "This makes me uncomfortable and I'm not willing to interrogate why, so let's find something arbitrary to pick on"
That is such a dumb criticism. Let's forget for a moment that Edward is physically the same age as Bella, but that in real life I have yet to hear about a teenage boy who is over a hundred years old...so I fail to see the problematic message for readers, if the plot twist is "fairly" impossible in the real world.
Think Aragorn/Arwen. The age gap is actually some 2000 years. Yet nobody has ever batted an eye over Arwen being a groomer or something, since they met when Aragorn was a teen and have lived together for a long time in Rivendell. What I believe is that people should just let go a little of the humanization of _fantasy_ characters. Vampires and elves are a different race. Their brains work differently. Their sex drive works differently. They are NOT human - in fact they are immortal - thus human morality cannot be 100% imposed onto them. I would argue that someone who can't die (of natural causes) will inherently ascend to some kind of.... higher wisdom state of being and mind, after about the 100 year mark, it's inevitable. (That can be why Edward is already like an oldschool "grandpa" in 2005.) They are not tied, emotionally, timely, religiously, regionally, healthwise, or any other way, to pesky human fears and doubts, their problems are entirely different. That's why the clash of these races/cultures is so wholly exciting and electrifying, that's why we fantasize about being them, or being with them, and it's simply stupid to believe that anyone who enjoys fantasy including characters like this must be a pedophile or something.
@@NemamkaSimilar vein, Thor in the Marvel movies is supposed to be around 1500 years old in Asgardian years, but in human years, he's in his 20s. It's weird if the fantasy race ages mentally seemingly at the same rate humans do, instead of scaling the ratio up to suit a longer life span. I think the more uncomfortable pairings are when the older person is just older, period, even if you adjust with the age. So a 17 year old character with a fantasy character who would still scale down to like, a 30 year old, is uncomfortable.
The main reason I loved Twilight was how it flipped the vampire narrative on its head. Instead of living in some faraway castle in Romania, they live amongst us. The danger is amongst us. And that's reality. The biggest threats aren't hiding out in back alleys waiting to spring on unsuspecting victims. They're our neighbors and peers.
I mean, Twilight wasn't the first to do that by any means. Interview With A Vampire, World of Darkness, The Vampire Diaries. All of these portrayed vampires living amongst us. I think it was actually pretty common by the time of Twilight.
I feel in the analysis of vampires you miss that the vampire can also be frightening because on a truly base level, asides from the works of British authors and interpretation, vampires are also representative of the resentment felt by feudal serfs towards their lords. The idea of an aristocrat who literally sucks the blood of his lessers reveals what serfs truly thought of their lord in an interesting way, and that through line can carry forth. In interview with a vampire for example, Louis was literally a slaver who drank from his slaves and Lestat is an aristocrat (even if he is poor). This isn’t the primary focus of the novel, but I still think it’s important that all of these prominent vampires are rich, white, and literally suck the blood from the poor Vampires are capitalism basically, and that’s still frightening
Thanks for this. I was 27 when I got hooked on the books and it reminded me of the old world romance I read as a kid like from "Jane Eyre", "Pride and Prejudice" as well as "Anne of Green Gables". I love that Edward is old school and protective.
I love seeing how in all of its infamy, Twilight has inspired so much discussion. Regardless of if I think it's "objectively" good or bad, I'm happy that I grew up in the time of Twilight, because it is such an interesting stand-apart work of fiction. It dove head-first into romantic ideals in a way that most modern narratives just don't, and this video covered that SO well! Why can't something be both ridiculous and wonderful? Why can't a work of fiction surrender to all the things we aren't supposed to as real people? That said, it did kinda lead to the awful trend of fanfics-to-film-franchises and cursed us with the wolf man, so I'm so glad this was in the defense of Edward, specifically!!
Completely agree. Twilight is such a weird artifact, and I'm glad to have it as an example of my personal growth and ability to change opinions, if nothing else. Thanks so much for the watch and kind words!
I was born in provo, utah and raised extremely mormon, as well as being a young girl around the time twilight spiked in popularity. Twilight was extra popular in Utah because mormons are very proud of their own, and I was deeply into it for years. Your comments that boil down to being a mormon housewife likely informs the values meyer has and what she thinks is romantic, but her writing doesn't actively push an agenda are correct, in my opinion. Abstinence until marriage is obviously a very mormon value and the value on the marriage as a whole are things that align well with what you're taught as a girl in mormonism, but in as much as the culture you grow up with influence the things you'll like and make.
Meyer even has her protagonist, who she probably loves and identifies with, really strongly desire to have sex before marriage and try to have sex before marriage. Her desires are not treated as a fundamental flaw or mortal sin, and for people to argue that Edwards desire to wait until marriage is somehow bad implies Edward’s boundaries and desires don’t matter, that men owe sex to their partners, that those who hold those spiritual belief are fundamentally flawed- it’s quite bad.
@@llcdrdndgrbd Yeah. If the genders were reversed, Edward would have been considered an SAer. The fear against marriage are weird. People treat it as she was chained in a basement or something. It’s just a committed relationship and they could still break up? Besides it’s unfair to dunk so much on the author’s private beliefs. Not to mention, this is a supernatural story, if in the story the Mormon god is canonically real, then that’s how it is. Some people are just religious and you can’t force them not to add their ideology in their media.
Adding this on quickly; I also feel like ppl immediately regard Bella (and the girls she represents) as stupid, vapid and naive. Bell might be very much an ingenue but she’s also a pretty well-rounded person. She was parentified by both of her parents and became almost entirely responsible for keeping the homes together at 10 years old, making sure all the bills were paid on time, learning to cook young because the food her mother and father made was inedible, getting a job at 14, going grocery shopping the second she got a drivers permit at 15, doing almost all the household chores and still doing okay at school. She was bad at math and PE, she cried whenever she got mad or felt made fun of, she struggled to connect with people her own age because of the unstable and adultified life she’s had to live. She felt like her mom was her best friend and felt responsible for both of her parents because she didn’t feel like they were really capable of taking care of themselves and therefore felt guilt for not spending more time with her father growing up and simultaneously felt guilting for leaving her mother to “fend for herself.” She grew to like and eventually fall in love with Edward for very cute, mostly normal reasons (he’s hot and actively listens to everything she says.)
I'm very very liberal & I like Twilight (aside from that whole wolf telepathy scene where I had to leave the theater for a few minutes because I could not stop laughing at that ridiculousness). I did, however, make sure to explain to my girls the problematic parts, ya know, like a responsible parent who wants their children to have healthy relationships. There are red flags that would be incredibly problematic if they happened in real life, just like with darn near all movies ever.
"Just like with darn near all movies ever" YES. Twilight isn't special that way, we use stories to think about stuff we wouldn't necessarily like to happen in real life. I can't help but think there's a little bit of misogyny in the idea that girls have to be protected from the bad bad vampire book. Thanks for the watch!
@@themorbidzoo I don't think the problem is keeping the book away from kids. I think the problem is making kids aware of the problematic issues. The red flags in this series are packaged as romantic. I read these when I was 12-14 and while I enjoyed the book I was also aware of the problems in it, but I was in the minority on that. And I was legitimately scared for girls my age who believed it, who believed that if a guy shows those kinds of behaviors - stalking, controlling, manipulating, invading privacy - its just because he loves you. And yes, Twilight is not the only example of this, it's just one that's very well known.
@@breezy3392 completely agree, that’s a societal issue, which is absolutely where patriarchy comes into play- who is in charge of making kids aware of this and why aren’t they. The only point I’m want to make is that those worries are too often wrapped up with things that are 100% okay to fantasize about, but shamed for being girly and dumb, with a thin veneer of feminism to cover that up. Shit drives me insane lol
@@themorbidzoo My little cousin is around the same age I was when I got these books and she's getting into reading (and even writing some things of her own, I'm proud of her for that). She's asking me for books and I've given her things like The Hunger Games. I don't want to give her Twilight tbh, but if she asks for it I'd let her read it as long as I can sit down and talk to her about it. Personally, that's what I can do about it.
@@breezy3392 that’s awesome. :) I don’t think I would actively give any daughter of mine Twilight any more than I would actively give her Barbies, but if she were into that I certainly wouldn’t make her feel like that’s somehow a wrong interest. Lord knows we never do that for boys and their shitty media. Either way, talking to them about it is key for sure
This is genuinely the most refreshing and well thought out take of Twilight I ever heard! Thank you for this incredible piece, I will be sending it to all the haters :)
I can see how much work you put into this video and it is a great analysis, so I wanna congratulate you and thank you for that. I would also like to add something that pisses me off about all this Twilight hatred in a particular way, namely how people - and when I say people, I think it's mostly a certain category of feminists that does this - hate Bella for being "useless", for "doing nothing" for being the "demoiselle in distress". They compare her to Hermione saying how Hermione was so amazing with all her smarts and spells and punching Slytherins in the face and being a badass. In today's society, that's pretty much the narrative: that if you wanna matter as a woman, you need to be more like a man, you need to constantly compare yourself with a man and prove "everything he can do you can do better" and all that. And somehow if you chose your life legacy to be teaching kindergarten or being a housewife, you're just not successful, cause basically if you're not some sort of girl boss, who are you? And from my humble point of view, for a 17 years old girl with no special magical powers whatsoever, Bella is incredibly strong and brave. I'd love to see how brave they were at that age. It's just not fair that just because she doesn't fight with a sword or guns or shoot lasers from her eyes while walking sexy in slow motion all Lara Croft-like, her courage and sacrifices aren't viewed as valid or important. In the books we are told how she takes care of her mom, she cooks and takes care of the household, she sacrifices her happiness multiple times so that the ones around her get to live their happiness, even when she moves in with her dad she's more concerned with his happiness and worries about him being lonely. She never gets pushed around and doesn't give up, her intuition and emotion tells her what she wants and what she doesn't want and she is going for it without blinking, willing to accept whatever consequences there might be. When she thinks James kidnapped her mom she doesn't think twice about going there to die so that Renee can hopefully be safe. And not to mention when everyone was freaked out about her baby killing her, how all she cared about was her baby being born healthy, no matter if it killed her in the process. And I've heard people saying she does all this because she's just emo and suicidal and bored with her life and doesn't have anything good to live for. But isn't it kinda dumb to look at it that way? Even when she becomes a vampire, her special power is a shield, because she's always been a protector and an intuitive person, which is the ultimate feminine energy. She's always been lead by love, not just for Edward, but love in general. She is very similar to Carlisle in that way, I think. Cause he is also a person that chose to be good, to help others, to be a protector. And passive protection is just as valid and important as active protection. She reminds me of this quote that goes: "Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid" which is what happens in twilight, her courage, love and determination inspire people to wanna join their cause, get involved. The wolves join them, the other vampires join them, because what they're there to protect is something we all care for and need in the world: love and truth. Everything Bella wanted, she's been told she can't have, yet she managed to get. Even when the Cullens told her that once she becomes a vampire she'll have to say goodbye to her parents for good, well, the universe bent to her will so that she could. So, I would love to hear your thoughts on this, Maybe you can make another video on it some time :)
Aw, thanks for the watch and the incredibly thoughtful comment. ☺I completely agree, the idea (that at least in academic circles is blessedly starting to become unfashionable) that the best way to be a woman is to directly compete with men is all over the critiques of Twilight. I think that's especially funny and interesting given the direct comparison to Harry Potter those critics often deploy, which today in the year of our lord 2022 is itself considered pretty cringe and outdated. And it's rough for a critic, because like, I get it, you don't want media that sets what could be a bad example for people, especially vulnerable people, to follow. The thing that bothers me most about Twilight hate in this regard is the apparent assumption that only boys and men are equipped to tell the difference between fantasy and reality-- that they can watch people kill and maim each other in action movies without feeling the literal urge to maim and kill people in real life, but if we give girls and women the fantasy of a relationship that is magical and empowering in the most improbably perfect way, they'll think it's literally real and that's all they'll care about in the future. It's a huge hand-tip that reveals the lowkey misogyny of certain feminist critics, not to mention the implicit erasure of any queer or nonbinary people who might be into romantic fantasies about hot Halloween monsters.
@Indigo Rodent This is interesting. She's very much an audience surrogate, it's interesting to see where the line between teenage gender roles is drawn in this way. It's much more about the intensity of feeling than the performance of a particular gender.
My BIGGEST issue with Edward is that he stopped eating rapists and pedophiles, predators need a natural predator of their own and he can read minds so he knows without a shadow of a doubt that they are guilty... but he's just too damn Mormon and has an obsessive reverence for human life. *eyeroll* Other than that I think most of his controlling behaviors were just him being traumatized by losing his mother at 17 and nearly dying himself just to go and fall in love with an admittedly frail mortal. I think it speaks volumes that he immediately apologizes for underestimating Bella when she becomes a vampire and adapts to it like a duck to water. He's happy to admit he was wrong and acting out of fear for the majority of their relationship, he's happy to admit he was wrong to project HIS hangups around vampirism onto Bella. Bella is more similar to Emmett, she LOVES being a vampire, and she also has a debilitating fear of aging lol. I also have a theory that Vampirism stunts brain development so while he has a lot more life experience, I fully believe Edward is working with the same partially formed 17-year-old frontal lobe as Bella is... and by the end, she's got at least a year of brain development on him! Because if his body stopped aging at 17 why would his brain do anything different??? Why else would he need to go to daddy and mommy for advice so often???? Like I know the vampire parents thing is to make them seem more normal but I feel like he actually needed parental guidance, and so did his siblings. Although I'm just going to keep pretending Carlisle is 43 and not 23 because wtf is that??????
It is a Cannon fact that their minds stop developing at the time they were changed. So even if they have permanent memory, decades of experience and knowledge their default actions and emotions, their instinctual emotions are of their age. It takes something “profound” or life altering to change them. Like losing or gaining a partner. Once you go through that you can’t change. It’s why Victoria was so revengeful (besides losing a partner), why Jasper has a hard time adjusting to the “vegetarian” diet. The habits you set are pretty much permanent. It took falling for Bella and then her having their child for Edward to “mature”. Even Carlisle pointed it out, in the last movie and I think in the books as well. I don’t remember even after reading it more than 50 times. But still, the world has no effect of creatures whose only desire and instinct is to feed. Developing feelings and maintaining a concerned consciousness is already pushing it.
Thank you for doing this. As an 11 year old, initially I LOVED Twilight, I had my room covered in the posters and read all the books over like two months even though I hadn't read anything before for pleasure that my school or family hadn't assigned. I was then laughed at for liking it at school and from then on for the rest of my teenage years I thought I could only enjoy it as a 'guilty pleasure', and lately since finding this video (amongst others), I realised for once, it doesn't have to be a pleasure to feel guilty about. As you said, it's a story about that intense 'hormonal' love that I think we are lucky to feel in our lives and tbh I agree it's nice to have a story about that, as it's a powerful, confusing feeling.
I agree with so many points in this video. But it’s not a defence of Edward, but Film Edward. And the actions of Book Edward that weren’t adapted undercuts the arguments made here.
I almost cried at the end of your beautiful analysis. I read twilight for the first time at 11 y/o and I'm 28 now, it was the book that started my love for books and reading, I've been watching a lot of analysis of the movies and books this past 3 years and I always get to see the story from a new perspective. Thank you for your video, it was beautiful
My only problem with this video is that you dismissed the racist implications Twilight has. Shanspeare did a video about the racial politics of twilight. How Stephenie Meyer did not want to include a racially diverse cast although the director asked her to, and only settled for Laurence to be black (a villain vampire). It is also interesting to see how she depicts the werewolves in comparison to the vampires. The vampires are beautiful and civilised yet they can cause deathly destruction. Meanwhile, the werewolves are good but are portrayed as aggressive and unhinged. It is also believed this is a problem because Mormonism is deeply racist and there is no denying that there are racist implications in the novel. We are not saying that Stephenie is racist for not making Jacob 'sexy enough'. or for making Bella choose Edward. It goes deeper than that. Please take more consideration into researching this
The video was already over an hour long, and incredibly insightful. She does not need consider every implication under the sun, which have already been considered in other videos, just to please you
@@cuca_ it is not insightful if it excuses racism. You can find HEAPS of articles on the internet and interviews that showcases Stephenie's BLATANT racism. Boiling down all the criticism to 'Jacob not being sexy enough' is tasteless and insulting when there were bigger issues. And no, its not pleasing me, but insulting Native Americans and POC out there
Lmaooo did you just excuse racism??? OP just stated that the creator dismissed all the racism in the books and you are defending that. You are wack and tasteless
Gosh this was such a smart analysis. I was also in the group of 12 year olds who didn’t watch it because it was “stupid”. I saw the movies for the first time when I was 21, and they weren’t masterpieces, but they were enjoyable. I resent the idea that stories about love are for stupid, when like you said almost every person experiences love in some way. I think media also just loves to invalidate the interests of teenage girls. Like if the largest part of the audience is teenage girls then it’s automatically thought of as being dumb, without any further analysis. Of course the movies had problems - especially the appropriation of the Quileute, yikes - but the love story between Bella and Edward is decent entertainment. I wish teenage girls were allowed to enjoy things for just being fun to watch, instead of being ridiculed because they want to enjoy things that aren’t deeply intelligent classics or whatever lol.
Thanks for the watch! By that same token, it seems like a lot of media that's gendered feminine is always put under a lot of pressure to "be a good influence." What patronizing chickenshit. I think policing quality in that way also acts as a pretty effective smokescreen for unspoken ideologies or things we'd rather not think about as a society. I'm very happy to admit that there is cringe in Twilight lol, but I think there's another kind of "masterpiece" quality to a story that brings people together in a common experience the way Twilight did. It's a purely emotional story, and while emotions might not be classy or high-minded, they are never stupid.
@@themorbidzoo I agree! They were definitely a sort of cultural reset too, I think the Hunger Games is the only other series I can think of that changed media for a few years in the same way Twilight did. Your defence was great and the movies are fun :)
This is so good! I can only imagine how long it must have taken you to make this video. I'm so grateful though! It's both funny and intelligent. I just recently got into Twilight, despite hearing the hate, and I couldn't help but love it. But I could never articulate why I thought it was good, and here you come with all of your top notch arguments - for example your explanation of why Edward’s not really creepy for being ”old” was such an aha moment. And the montage of plot ”noise” with action music where suddenly a cactus shows up made me lol. I love your TL;DR plotline of Bella: a bored girl in a beautiful/dangerous/complicated world where goodness depends on decisions and there is hearthbreak and so forth. It gave me chills. And when you summed up Edward plotline POV someone started cutting onions… hngg. :’) And YES, thank you, Bella’s trust is so important for the relationship - and love that you point out that Bella is the only person that Edward in turn ”just have to trust”. Thanks again
I once spent winter vacation sweating over a graduate level Vampires in Literature class for fun. I could have just waited a few decades and watched your video instead. Damn! Well done you :)
I'll synthesize what's the T with Jacob: Taylor Lautner is SO sweet and adorable that his personality and energy kinda overshadows Jacob's toxicity. But Jacob is INDEED super toxic. But lso Edward has livedd longer and knows more, he is also an intelectual. Jacob has double hormones, teenager and werewolf and also happens to be more interested in physical activities than thinking
I loved this. I always loved Twilight books and movies. I felt a little confused about why I liked it so much, so I read some of the academic papers and thought they really missed the point, you’ve hit the nail on the head in many ways. I wonder why now all entertainment has to be about the way we want things to be, from a feminist perspective, rather than the way they are. I fear there are a lot of little girls that are going to be disappointed that they can’t kick big guys asses. It’s hard to believe the female experience throughout history will no longer be valid and will have to be manipulated in the media to represent the future we strive for. Can’t art represent our experience? From my perspective first love is scary, and for me boys were really scary and sort of “other”. Bigger, stronger, exciting, confusing, and the way they behaved was a mystery. They might as well have been vampires. That unavoidable attraction to some one you weren’t really sure about but wanted to be. Although I’m from another generation, I identified with Bella because of her clumsiness and I was terrible at volleyball, and I have experienced the starting school in a new place as a teenager. I also had passionate crushes that I dreamed would last forever and awkward and confusing interactions with said crushes. I really loved your conclusions, especially about Edward and Bella evolving in their difficult relationship and learning the hard lessons. This is a brilliant analysis. Thank you so much for tackling the topic. I’m so glad I watched it.
Thank you so much, for watching and for the thoughtful comment! Yes, I'm bothered by the idea that men and boys get to have very masculine fantasies on film with no public criticism or question whatsoever, but anything coded female has to be scrutinized and torn apart if it's not some stock version of a "good influence" (basically that only "male" virtues are universally good). There's so much misogyny in criticism of women's media, easily as much as actually goes into media itself. It makes people of all genders avoid respecting "girly" emotions in themselves and others, which is extremely sad. I'm glad it seems like newer generations are starting to reject that.
This was a fabulous video essay and you've done what I thought impossible: you changed my mind about Twilight. Now Fifty Shades on the other hand, that shit is toxic waste. It does everything Twilight is accused of doing while lacking the mitigating context. I used to lump the two together in my mind, but now I see that Fifty Shades is the product of someone who got the wrong impression from Twilight and thought that wrong impression was a good thing.
Hooray, thank you! I think people are way too quick to dismiss the fantasy elements of Twilight in their attempt to "solve the narrative." The fact of this being a vampire story and the inherent danger vampirism represents is what keeps it from being a story about excusing routine abuse like 50 Shades.
I haven’t finished the video yet but wanted to leave a comment before I forget. I agree that when you only look at Edward and Bella the age difference isn’t really creepy because he was frozen in time. However SM has many examples of normalizing older men being with younger women. One of the werewolves helping to raise a toddler and expecting to date her once she’s a teenager is creepy af, same with Renesme. She has another book called The Host. It’s a really entertaining post apocalyptic series but there are two different underage girls that get with adult men by the end of the book. There was no reason for their age difference.
I love Twilight - but I had never fully realized how these books and characters can reflect the danger of relationships - along with the beauty. I feel like my eyes have been opened in a way, even though I already liked Twilight! I have a different appreciation for it now, understanding more of its context and effect. Thank you so much for this amazing video essay! This is seriously the best video essay I’ve ever seen! I can’t wait to watch more of your videos! You are so clear and thought provoking! Thank you!
maybe this is just because I don't know how to read but your writing is phenomenal and this is one of the more genuinely enlightening videos or, anything I've ever seen. thank you.
As someone who has been a defender and lover of Twilight for all of this time, I really appreciate your willingness to do a deep dive and explain things that I’ve been saying for years. Edward has always been one of my favorite fictional characters because he is flawed, for sure, but he is also very genuine. He never hides the fact that being a vampire, for him, absolutely sucks. He does everything he can to put Bella’s best interest in front but has obstacles to maneuver. Loved this video so much! ❤
I was obsessed with Twilight and Edward in particular in my early teen years but my environment and social media made me think that it was something stupid and ridiculous. Still, I reread or rewatch Twilight once in a few years and I still enjoy it! I think what I loved so much about it is the idea that you can be loved without being special or interesting (and that’s what men usually hate about Bella); that you can actually just cuddle and kiss in bed without having sex. I think that in this sense Twilight is actually better than lots of modern romances. And as you said, it perfectly captures the feeling of emptiness when your crush disappears from your life. For me personally it was the most devastating experience in my whole life, although I’ve been through other objectively more horrifying things like war and death of a friend. The reason why this is so painful is that as opposed to external factors which you cannot control the unrequited love feels like your failure: you think that they never loved you back because you did something wrong, because you did not prove to be worth their love and that’s exactly what Bella felt. And yes, love can really change your life dramatically in the positive way and feel like the best thing in your life and it does not make you less oh a feminist. The fact that you at least once felt unconditionally loved can make you confident for the rest of your life.
Fingernails and hair don't grow after death, it's just that the skin shrinks. Once dead, the body loses the ability to make more stuff like it would while alive. Otherwise great video as always!
my god, i love this video. i've grown so tired of video essays, but finally- an intelligent, nuanced, thoughtful argument (not trying to 'you're not like other girls' you, just saying this isn't just a summary of the plot which is rare) and you've spoken about the vulnerability of love in a way that's very compelling and true. you're so underrated, how is this not viral?
This is so good! I was well into Twilight in its early days, and me and my friends all waited for each of the books to come out so we could read them asap etc. I definitely got well into the whole "Edward is controlling and Twilight was awful" band wagon in the last little while, and this has been a really helpful fresh perspective! Thanks so much for taking the time to do this. I think I related to the whole "Edward was awful" stuff because I had had a few relationships that were indeed awful, and in watching videos about Edward being controlling it's easy enough for people to point out the problematic bits and ignore anything else. In seeing this, though, I am realising that Edward is very different to all the real life controlling and awful men that I knew. Edward did want what was in Bella's best interests, and that's not the case with actual awful boyfriends. He has a very different motivation, even if his demeanour is a bit creepy and some bits of his character aren't great. Maybe, now that I'm in a stable marriage, that allows me to look back and see lots of the aspects that you're pointing out. From my current vantage point I can see the reality of the "love has the potential to leave you hurt" idea and that whole notion that it's worth it anyways. And Bella wanting to commit to this guy, to the exclusion of other options, is what she wants. If feminism is to leave women with the choice to pursue marriage and babies, if that is what they actually want, then it needs to allow for media like Twilight not being awful hellscapes.
Wow. I'm just... I'm blown away. Twilight was the first book series I read as a young woman, the first romance novel I ever read and felt personally, deep in my soul. I feel that I got very lucky in that I did not have my experience belittled or poisoned by outside forces. My parents loved that I loved reading, they took me to all the movies and encouraged my enjoyment. Twilight meant, and still means, so much to me, and will forever be a part of my life story. As a writer, Twilight inspired me to capture my emotions-of infatuation, of lust, of pain, of fear, of joy-in as ardent a way as possible, because reading Meyer's own capturing of those emotions really made me feel seen. Twilight was the first book series that made me feel "I want to write something one day that impacts other people in the way this work has impacted me". As I got older and became aware of the hate and criticism towards Twilight, I was always able to roll my eyes and hold my joy for myself. I feel very lucky for that. Other things I have loved, other pieces of art and media, have not been so unscathed by the outside influences of adulthood. But Twilight... Twilight has kept itself whole and lovely in my heart, and I feel like getting this video recommended to me by the UA-cam algorithm was a true blessing. Despite never giving into the Twilight hate, I have felt discouraged by the absence of a well-written, well-executed defense. Then again, I have not gone out and sought one, for fear of only getting bombarded with the vitriol that I have so become privy to. But this video, this incredibly well done, eloquent, lovely lovely video, has given me so much joy and a sense of peace that I didn't know I needed. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for giving us this incredible video, for doing so much research, for speaking with such bravery, and I really do mean that. I wish I could show all the bad faith critics this video, because I really feel they could really benefit from your thorough and thoughtful perspective. I also wish I could show this video to Meyer herself, because I feel like she would appreciate it. I will definitely be watching this video again, and I'm intrigued by the possibility of a Jacob video in the same style! (Edited because I forgot her last name had no "s" at the end)
This video was so good! I think you articulated a lot of what I love about twilight! Your points about vulnerability actually brought me some insight into my own personal relationships.
Holllllly mooooly this videooo. I was one of those hardcore twihards for years since it came out. And I never thought of the things you said in a very articulated way. Amazing video
I wholeheartedly agree with you. I watched this entire film series with my Girlfriend, Back to back, A movie a night during the pandemic (sadly over long distance and we watched a lot of movies, film series that way and still do but I digress) both out of Legitimate curiosity, because neither of us had seen any of them, and with the full intent of Absolutely Clowning on them and we both ended up insanely shocked how entertained we were by them. The movies are DUMB, But the way the vampires and werewolves work is cool and it’s a legitimately fun ride with a flawed but sweet and kinda relatable (on some level) romance. Although well before this we saw that crappy 2011 Red Ridinghood movie that was kinda a twilight ripoff, which already filled me with despair because Little Red Riding Hood is my favorite fairytale and I’m even working on writing my own twisted horror take on it. But after watching Twilight and Enjoying it… it actually hurt worse because “not only did they turn my favorite Fairytale into a Twilight ripoff, they turned it into a SHITTY Twilight ripoff!!!”
Thinking that Twilight is not a mirror of patriarchy and actively promotes it (breaking dawn is literally pro-life propaganda) just because the vampire society in the story is not patriarchal (as if Stephanie Meyer even intended it to not be or even thought about it) is honestly a pretty shallow analysis. Yes, vampire women aren’t subjugated based on their reproductive organs, but Bella is actively painted as better than the blonde, mean, vain vampire women (Rosalie and Tanya) due to her being able to get pregnant and form a traditional family. You can’t look at art and what it is promoting in a vacuum as if just because the society in it is accidentally progressive towards women, the author did not put any patriarchal message in it. And I say this as someone who was a Twilight fan as a kid and still loves it to death. It’s just that you get the basis of how to analyze text when it comes to the messages it is portraying really wrong. Art can not be analyzed if it is not compared to the time, place and cultural environment the artist was inserted in when they wrote it.
I think Edwards actions quickly become a lot more understandable when you remember that even though he had been alive over a hundred years and even though he’s very powerful, he’s still making decisions based on inexperience and lack of emotional maturity and wisdom when it comes to relationships. I guess the question is, does he learn through the series? I haven’t consumed it enough to judge
29:10 I disagree with this criticism. It's still weird for a college student to pursue (whether it be romantically or sexually) a high schooler. So, while it doesn't come with the same kind of potential for economic or social abuse, it's still a form of pedophilia Also, it's pretty common for pedos to be people whose social development have been stunted, and thus find it easier to relate with children than their peers
The only real issue with twilight, from my perspective, is that Bella tried to kill herself, and at no point did she grow to realize her life had value outside of a relationship. I wanted to see her learn to live for herself as and maybe be an example for others struggling with thoughts of suicide. I had no problem with Edward. He's a vampire. No need to judge him by human standards.
I can’t believe this video is two years old. I just found it and I think it’s great! When I watched all the movies as an adult, I found myself really liking Edward as the saga progressed. He’s one of the people who really respected Bella’s wants and her agency, especially towards the end of the franchise. Thank you so much for the thoughtful breakdown!
Something that I didn't understand a handful of years ago, is when everyone started saying Edward was a gaslighter towards Bella, and that's unhealthy... BUT FROM WHAT I CAN RECALL, HE'S LITERALLY A MYTHICAL CREATURE TRYING TO NOT BE FOUND OUT. even though it's a disaster
The undisputed best depiction of what being a Vampire is and means has emerged since the making of this video in THE GREAT AND MIGHTY KEVIN from Ogre Poppenhang's "Hunter: The Parenting". I say this with 100% sincerity.
i was abt to make a yt channel just to make a video like this lol. i get why ppl freak over meyer's intent but that doesn't mean that's what the audience took away. i can see as an adult bella's pregnancy was probably influenced by meyer's likely prolife beliefs but middle school me sat in those theatres thinking that i would've ripped that thing out of me lol. kids don't necessarily take away the "lesson" or ideas something is giving them. they also have the ability of personal interpretation i had to watch this in two sessions cuz of work but you're comment about how everyone has the capacity to hurt a loved one rlly stuck with me. i got mental illnesses and trauma that make me want to lash out and push ppl away- things i have done in the past. part of being in a committed relationship now is recognizing that and moving past it. i always related to edward a lot, and i think part of that has to do with me being queer. the feeling of 'i'll never be enough no matter what i do' and having someone you love come and say that this part of you isn't just not broken but beautiful is amazing.
Lovely comment. Make the video anyway lol, our boy needs love. Yes, back in the day the academic fashion was to queercode Harry Potter (weird kids all coming together, literally emerging out of a closet). If you had told me back then that Harry Potter would soon be a symbol of anti-queerness and neoliberalism I would have laughed at you. Unlike Harry Potter, the stakes of Twilight are completely personal, all that matters is the relationship, and that allows us to think about the themes of it in terms less attached to society at large, which I like. I've also got my own mental illnesses and struggles with trauma, and more and more I consider it a matter of emotional hygiene to keep track of how those things distort my thinking and might lead me to hurt others or push them away unnecessarily. For some of us (most of us, I would guess), caring for another person is stressful and effortful, and that effort should be celebrated rather than seen as a pure symbol of abusive impulse. Like, has anyone who says that been in a relationship EVER?
I'm sorry but Jonathan Harker is NOT a boring husband! He gets kidnapped by Drac and tortured and STILL has the courage to take Drac down with his friends!!!! His and Mina's relationship is based on mutual respect for each other and their individual interests (Jon memorizes recipes during his trip to Transylvania that he thinks Mina will like). Mina is not attracted to Dracula like most adaptations think!!!! Instead, she fucking hates him for how he traumatized and nearly kills her husband!!!
This was a delightful listen. I’ve never been a fan of twilight, internalized misogyny some of the reason but the bigger reason being I hated the writing style, but my older sister was, so I was always at least tangentially in the fandom space. This take was super refreshing and I love this take on Edward. It’s a shame girl/women focused media never gets the nuanced and varied depictions of boy/male media.
wow this just belatedly popped up on my recommended and im so glad!!! i was truly captivated the entire way through. i love the way you explain things and the editing details you put in!!! thank you for this!! i loved the twilight books as a preteen, then reread the series as an adult and realized… i STILL love it. it’s even better as an adult because i can appreciate the nuances of the characters and the rationale behind the more complex decisions they make. bella has so much agency and her decisions drive everything. edward is always considerate of her feelings and wellbeing (even during his problematic moments, not that it excuses them but he really is consistent!). i remember i hated new moon when i was younger bc there was so little edward. rereading as an adult, i was so surprised to realize that it so accurately captures the aftermath of a ghosting/traumatizing end of relationship. i ended up weeping throughout most of the book and got so anxious i had to take breaks from reading it bc it was resonating with me so much lol, so wild! i feel like i have never read anything that portrayed that experience so accurately. dang i really love these books!!! all that said, i actually can’t bear watching the movies lol! i never understood why, they just always made me uncomfy. your summary of robert pattinsons mindset/struggle to realize his vision for edward, and the issue of portraying such an internal conflict on screen, really helped me understand why they don’t work for me. maybe one day we will get a more thoughtfully designed twilight film series !! really thank you again for this deep dive!!!
Thank you so much!! Really what gets me about the Twilight hate is this implication that boys and men get to have media that encourages them to grapple with and fantasize about difficult life events, but apparently women and girls can't understand the difference between a story and reality and need to be protected from it. Eyeroll.
You didn't need to hold the shot of the interview at 35:00. You truly didn't. I dropped a hot pan and burned myself trying to stop the video due to the sheer cringe radioactivity of the clip
I came to the twilight phenomena really really late - like a few months ago at the age of 43. I was too old when it originally came out and then heard everyone saying how crap it was. So when it came time for my teen girls to have an interest in it I told them to stay clear cos it was crap. They asked me if id read it and I had to admit that I hadn’t - so I found a free version online and read it in about 2 days! Aaaaaaand I was hooked. So, for me, it was like that experience at the end of ratatouille where the food critique gets pulled back into a memory of his childhood and it brings something back alive you never noticed was dead. It brought me back to when I met my husband at age 21. Twilight for me was like experiencing what it was like to fall in love for the first time with ‘the one’! (We are still happily married 20 years!) and so started by obsession with twilight. It also helps us see that not one person is perfect - this new generation of young people are statistically the loneliest and the ones having the least amount of sex! I wonder if it’s cos they believe that others should be perfect like them, without noticing their own imperfections, or maybe expecting people to put u with them. 🤷♀️ Edward was not perfect, Bella was not perfect, but together they worked on that - and that is actually how you build a long lasting and happy marriage - I can guarantee you that’s the only way to do it. After that I had to read the next one - where I weeped the whole way through. Again, this threw me back to what it was like to have a break up with the one. It was exactly like what happened with my hubby - he needed some time to get his shit together (we both came from very troubled backgrounds and he wanted to be more ‘whole’ for me) literally broke my heart. And to be honest I don’t remember much other than the pain of longing and thinking I’d never get passed it. (Interesting side note, Carter Burwell who wrote Bella’s lullaby, wrote that piece after he had his heart broken by the love of his life, recorded it and put it away as a kind of catharsis - they later married and are still married!) and I knew I would do absolutely anything for him if his sister rang me up and asked me! So on to the 3rd one I went - and again, a perfect example of what happens when you form a relationship with someone that you need to survive, but then jealousy and bitterness sets in. I thought the book handled Edward better in this than the films! And let’s be honest, how many of us would manage to cope with a partner that loved another person, even though it was differently, and needed them because of what we had done to them?! I couldn’t even have my hubby’s ex girlfriend at my wedding! 😂 Anyway. Suffice to say I am now a big fan and am encouraging my girls to read the actual books before watching the films
Dude, I genuinely felt awful for Rob when you played the interview clips…if you told me he was drunk during some of them, I would completely believe you 🥺
I honestly don't care about Twilight and have never done so but I clicked on this because I loved the non-ironic passionate attitude you gave off in the title, and I just fucking love how it ended up as a REALISTIC and HUMAN perspective on storytelling, relationships, love... we REALLY needed this, it's so refreshing to see media analysis by someone who isn't reactionary and who is media literate and knows how to ACTUALLY read stories and not just ignore the purpose of the story, and characters and plots... down with one dimensional media analysis that treats characters and stories as if they are real and should thus be judged and interpreted literally with real world standards. Every choice in writing, even the ones made subconsciously or made by non-action, is meaningful and is meant to communicate ideas and themes. You get it! I love this shit! Thank you for sharing your perspective! Also FLAMING LIPS SWEEP.
I hated Twilight as a teenager because a saw that girls tend to like it so it must've been vapid and stupid, or so I thought... I used to be a vapid and stupid teenager.
I love this analysis, but still can't forgive SM for making the love interest intrigued by the fact that he can't read the main character's mind while also making the story IN FIRST PERSON. Like, we know how ordinary Bella is. So the ending where she finally lets him read her thoughts is kind of horrific in a way. Like, Edward got duped! He ended up with one of the normies he hated in school! And if he's forever 17, then he's always going to be like that. The ending is like the ending of a Tales from the Crypt episode. 😬
yeah, you had me until this moment 29:08. Red flag No.1 in your video 1:02:42 Red flag No.2 , Bella didn't even know Edward at that point, she had only seen him a few times without actual conversations with him. How on earth would you suggest that trusting someone you're not even in a relationship with is a good idea? You see, right now I'm at 1:04:31, and I'm thinking to myself for most of this video you did not defend Edward. You talked about so many different topics that at some point got away from the main topic, unfortunately and for the parts that you very accurately "ardently" defended him, you pretty much brought up only the good moments of Edward and by that I mean Edward has loads of moments that he IS in fact controlling and does not give Bella the freedom of choice. He rather makes decisions for her than allowing her to make them and you did not mention those moments very much. You mostly swept them under the rug by claiming that he was being loving and romantic and protective. I'm rather dissappointed at almost the end of this video essay. You somewhat managed to create sth out of Edward Cullen that was not him. I might get back to this video to add some points here and there later. I'm just utterly surprised by how "ardently" you were willing to portray Edward's redflags as beautiful thoughtful traits. How you managed to do that in your own head is beyond me. I also sense a lack of experience (I'm not sure about this. It's merely a speculation) in abusive relationships. Were you more familiar with the dynamics of a toxic person and a toxic relationship you wouldn't be so "ardently" defending Edward's shady behaviours (and I'm not just talking about the time he was trying to hide his vampirism. A lot of times in his relationship with Bella he fails to communicate with her what needs to be communicated. He keeps so many things from her and again that's a sign of an unhealthy relationship not a healthy one.) Your whole analysis was way too romanticized. 1:07:08 Redflag No.3 ! Codependancy is not the same as caring! Bad advice!
Just... a late thought on that last 'red flag' if I may? Codependency is a neutral term. Let me give you a very small scale every day example. I depend on my fiancée to cook for me, she depends on me to clean the house. I hate cooking and suck at it but she loves it and is really creative and good at it, meanwhile she hates to vacuum/dust/mop and I actually really enjoy doing those things and am more efficient at them too. I also drive us everywhere because only I have a license, but she makes snacks for our roadtrips and is a very good copilot/navigator. In a long term relationship there will be mundane routine stuff like that that you can just agree that you will do for each other (and for the both of your enjoyment/health/safety) because you love each other, and you agree that you can, in fact, _depend_ on each other and the promise that things discussed will be completed. Looking at our boomer parents (literally, all four of them were born in the 50s) and older brothers/sisters and their spouses, and what they have continually done for each other over their decades of marriage, codependency is just something that forms inevitably between two people who decide to tie their lives together. That's literally why you tie your lives together with someone. If you can lean on each other and share chores, emotional labor, fears and dreams and goals, _because_ you care for that person AND they care for you, is a wonderful thing in life and I don't think that word is as dirty as you here presented it to be.
@@Nemamka Hey there, I appreciate your comment. Last night I posted a reply to your post but it didn't upload. So here I am again. I understand your point of view and it makes sense but the context is important here. Your definition of codependency and context is very important in deciding if the codependency healthy or not. Now, I don't exactly remember the point in the video I was referring to, but from what I remember, Neither the relationship in twilight was healthy nor the codependency between Bella and Edward. If I want to make a better argument, I will need to watch the video again. If another comment comes up and can inspire me or incite me tp watch it again, I might do that and explain my point of view further.
This is great, looking forward to seeing more of your thoughts if you're planning to add more. I got thoughts about it myself but basically it boils down to this relationship factually having toxic elements. It's probably not the worst out there, but not all of it can and should be explained away just like what this video did. That why we have problems about it.
I resigned to the fact years ago that Twilight was the reason I learned about feminism. No joke. I read the first book, kind of liked it but was triggered by it. Went looking online to understand why, found a hate Twilight site, wasted my time indulging my internalized misogyny before stumbling across some feminist adjacent blog or site (I couldn't tell you which one, just something someone probably wrote about why Twilight Bad). I was skeptical of this video ever since I found your channel, but the work day is long & I have time XD In other words, I come in good faith, given how much I've resonated with your other videos. The points you bring up are spot on. I still feel a hesitation in even recommending these books to young girls but why would I not bat an eye about Beauty & the Beast? Damn >.> So much to reflect on 🌸 Also I feel bad for Robert Pattinson, I'm understanding more of why he has those types of interviews. It's shitty he has to sit through them but his responses are kind of based lol
Genuinely I think these kinds of super blockbusters that generate a lot of conversation are valuable art partly _because_ of how they expose people to counterarguments about issues they might not have considered otherwise. I don't cotton to the idea that we should defend a character just because they make us feel nice because movie characters are, like, not real lol. The purpose they serve is as a stand-in for actual real people to consider different points of view and possibilities for themselves and society. Glad you liked it :D And yeah, Rob is awesome haha, he makes those garbage press circuit interviews actually fun for once
Mostly what bothers me now about the Twilight franchise is that they are recycling the old material, instead of continuing the wish fulfilment just as it was getting good. Bella is no longer suicidally depressed, she has superpowers and a husband, and a weird ugly baby that hopefully she'll keep away from Jacob. Have her go to trade school, become a mechanic, send she and Edward around the world solving mysteries. I hate romances that consider marriage the stopping point instead of just having the characters *do shit* together as a team. You can have interpersonal tension without needing them to bicker constantly.
As a teenager and young adult I, too, hated twilight with all my heart. That was until two years ago, when the person I then considered the love of my life left me. The scene in New Moon where Bella just sits in a chair, staring out of the window for months and crying and screaming every night was and is to this day one of the only film scenes about breakups that really made me feel seen and understood, because that's exactly what I did. I still get goosebumps watching that scene today and I appreciate the message behind it that yes, breakups can be traumatic, they can cause depression and it doesn't make you weird or weak to have had an experience like this.
I won’t tolerate any Michael Sheen slander in this house, he was the only good thing about these movies and correctly recognised them as the campy Desasters they are. 💀💀💀 I loved the first few books growing up, but by the time the movies rolled around I was just a little too old and ✨edgy✨ to actually give them the time of day. The last book was a definite hate read from me as well, it was simultaneously so boring and asinine that I think I actually threw it against a wall at some point in exasperation. So imagine my delight when I was made to marathon these movies with a friend years later, absolutely dreading the final two in particular and there he is: Michael Sheen. Being delightful. Say what you will about his acting choices, but I was entertained all the way through.
one thing that's stuck out to me about the "oh edward is so creepy" discourse - he's been trapped in the mind and body of a 17-year-old from the 1910s for nearly 100 years by the time he meets bella. he's had to play the role of being 17 too, by repeatedly going to high school and graduating over and over again to keep up the cullens' illusion of being a Normal Human Family. between him being born in *1901* and him being stuck with the brain/body of a teenage boy for nearly a century, that's gotta do a number on your mental health, not even mentioning that he might have been even MORE of a "problematic" person by modern standards before having to spend a century watching human social standards run extremely far past what he was raised to believe the world was like. edward probably isn't intentionally behaving in ways that modern humans find as "creepy", he's probably very socially and romantically inept due to being over 100 years old and still having the emotional capability of a teenage boy. he was raised in an era where women were literally considered the legal property of their husbands and it was perfectly legal to beat or assault them, he probably thinks watching bella sleep through her window is perfectly harmless and wouldn't weird anyone out. one thing i'd like to point out though, cause i've literally written academic papers about bram stoker's dracula novel - bram stoker was irish, not british, and was VERY involved in the home rule movement during his life. a lot of the "dracula is about immigrants" readings come from british and american literary critics, but some irish literary critics argue that dracula and his real estate development being a threat is a metaphor for british imperialism against ireland. around the time dracula was published, using vampires to depict the british crown or the english more generally as a threatening figure against some symbolic audience insert character for the irish people (most of the ones i've seen used the mythological figure of eire) was actually something that you could see as a regular theme in some pro-home rule publications as political cartoons. it's a more recent theory, but imo it's worth investigating as much as the "dracula is trash literature for racist, paranoid british people who are sexist idiots" reading. one final thing, if i could find a way to wipe aro's laugh from my brain so it doesn't play on loop like one of your friends who likes to abuse the soundboard on discord calls keeps slamming the aro laugh button every time i watch something with michael sheen in it. i just want to consume good omens in peace from my own rotted brain.
Oh that’s super interesting, I hadn’t heard that interpretation of Dracula. If you can name any people/their articles off the top of your head I’d love to see their argument (not that the interpretation is invalidated by the historical argument, I’m just curious, it’s an interesting way to read it anyway)
@@themorbidzoo i tried looking for the stuff i used as a source in my paper, but it appears most of it isn't easily accessible online, but by googling "dracula novel irish interpretation" you can easily find some pretty good writings on the topic. i know the specific book i used as a hard-copy source when doing academic research on the novel was mainly focused on bram stoker's sexuality and his friendship with oscar wilde (fun fact, oscar wilde was actually bisexual and people only assume he's gay in the modern era because he got arrested for having adult funtimes with other men. he actually was engaged to the woman who would later marry bram stoker and it caused IMMENSE personal drama because oscar wasn't over his ex girlfriend, iirc the book included a letter from him to bram stoker's wife that basically boiled down to "please send me back that expensive gift i sent you last christmas, you broke my heart and i fear i may never love again" because he was overly theatrical like that lmao), and i can't remember the title for the life of me, but it was a HEFTY book and had a section that discussed the potential reading of dracula as a commentary on british imperialism, and a few political cartoons contemporary to stoker's career that featured england-as-a-vampire imagery.
Sometimes I just want to read or watch fun melodrama because I'll either relate or laugh. If it's what I need in the moment then who cares? The side characters are delightful to read about, Meyer developed individual backstories for each character that inform who they currently are in the narrative in an immensely satisfying way, her ideas on vampires can be weird but also kinda cool because they are at least original, it's an easy read, and the fandom built around the franchise has become so much more than what it was. The fandom is actually my favorite part. Most people are just okay with being goofy and imagining these characters being goofy too. It's not all that serious and sometimes that is all I want, an escape.
I'm so tired of hearing "omg it's such a bad message to send to young girls" young girls can be fascinated with bad messages and want to watch a train wreck sometimes. Why is nobody complaining of how much male violence young boys are exposed to through their media consumption? Nobody bats an eye. I liked Twilight as a child (then I started hating it because I was a pick-me teenager) and yet I never wanted an Edward or a Jacob. Even as an 8 year old I could separate fiction from reality.
Yes, the attitude seems to be that we should protect girls from the things men will do to them, rather than empower girls to protect themselves. Very "feminist" 🙄 Thanks for the watch!
@@themorbidzoo Thank you for the video! It was really well written, thought provoking and entertaining. It's such a strange trend to me, this whole idea that girls and women somehow internalize fictional stories in a unique way. It reminds me A LOT of the constant idea that any new communication/form of expression, such novels themselves, would lead to some sort of hysteria due to women being unable to separate fiction from reality. It seems that idea never gets old
@@atlaskat7980 I think it literally comes from patriarchal insecurity. If men in power can't use "protection" as an excuse, then what do we need a patriarchy for? 🤔 Always fun to see feminist scholars shill for the patriarchy, ha
@@themorbidzoo it's kinda surreal to see some of the supposedly feminist takes that have been produced in the last decade or so. I seem like a conspiracy theorist but a lot of it seems almost like infiltration lol, like a CIA plot to take it down from the inside. Like you say, as if it's the patriarchy talking with a coat of feminist paint on the words
@@atlaskat7980 lol exaaaactly
I watched this after having my heart broken for the first time and having someone tell me "hey, it's okay to feel hurt. it's okay to be permanently changed because you love someone" was groundbreaking to me. thank you so much
Aw. Sorry for your troubles. It's absolutely okay, I'm glad my rambling could help a little 💗
I couldn’t read the books. It was trash. But the movies were a guilty pleasure for things like this.
@tffnyc1033 The total opposite for me. I felt like the movies ruined Twilight
Yes omg. It's okay to be changed because you're growing.
@@tffnyc1033if you couldn't read them how can you say they are trash?😂
“What is better? To be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?”
-Paarthurnax
both are better
@@themysticwarriorgal9465it's the effort that makes it interesting
@@leahscontemporary no i realized society is so focused on bad people becoming good that they neglect already good people
To be born good, tf lmao. Because people think overcoming your evil nature through great effort is somehow better, we still have tortures, and serial killers, and rapists, and abusive people, and pedophiles, and all those disgusting ass humans in our world, rather they overcame their evil nature or not. I understand the message, but the message is honestly stupid, I'm sorry lmao
Amen.
Who knew 15 years after the first book came out I’d still be watching twilight commentary. Both my preteen self and fully grown adult self appreciate all the work and research you did for this video. Amazing job as always!
1qqq
So as far as the woods go, Edward left Bella within view of the house. He didn't abandon her in the woods. But Bella was so distraught by his leaving, and wondered deeper into the wood looking for him until she got lost.
Alice really let our girl down by not telling Edward to walk her back into the house 😅 then she would at least have had to run outside to get lost.
that is so real of her
Wandered. For the love of god, people, wonder and wander mean two different things.
@@HanhNguyen-uk8bcautocorrect doesn’t exist at all apparently.
@@HanhNguyen-uk8bchave you ever considered that you are lucky, not superior to others, for being good at spelling? Elitism is lame as shit. Criticize others on their ideas, not minuscule spelling errors.
Another concerning criticism that I've run into a few times is that Edward sucks because he won't have sex with Bella until they're married. This tends to come from people who express very normal, healthy views on consent and sexuality, but then they turn around and make fun of Edward for being so old-fashioned and frigid. That just really bothers me. Yes, making a big deal out of virginity and purity is not good, but saying that Edward's a bad person because he won't bone his girlfriend is frankly appalling, especially once we see what happens when he does. The double standard in this situation is ridiculous.
On a separate note, one thing I love about the Twilight franchise is the side characters. Characters that could easily be throw-away plot devices get mini arcs and moments to shine, like Angela asking her crush to prom. Jessica is the ditsy girly girl, but she deconstructs a zombie movie outside the theater and gives a thematically relevant speech at graduation. Charlie is the dad with a tangentially-plot-related job, but he also feels inadequate as a father as he struggles to connect with Bella. Rosalie is the disapproving relative to be won over, but it's because of her traumatic past and complex character motivations. Leah is the girl werewolf, but we see her grapple with her identity as part of the pack. I care about Seth and Bree and Kate and Garrett and I would literally die for Alice, and it's impressive to me that it takes so little screen time to be emotionally invested in these often understated characters.
Edward is over 100 years old. He is going to be old fashioned so I don't understand how people are complaining that he doesn't do the thing with Bella and him also being so chastised. People cant decide lol. Then also him being chastised is somehow controlling or something Xd
The thing is...a lot of young and religious people who are taught to save sex for marriage often struggle to be intimate. Mostly because of shaming methods. Not that this is the specific case for Twilight but I feel like putting such an ultimatum on a person is weird.
@@Peregrina as long as you're not waiting soley for "shame" then its fine. Its literally just a prefrence.
@@katgreer6113 What do you mean waiting for "shame"?
What I meant is that some religious groups with fundementalist views preach about vieginity until marriage . While doing this they shame everyone who does have sex before marriage. They also shame people who masturbate or watch porn and claim its bad and sinful It IS a thing that happens. It IS the shaming methods from the religious culture that create feelings of insecurity about bodily autonomy. It IS also common that sex education and consent is swept under the rug so a lot of people have no idea how it works. Purity culture put a lot of pressure on young women to give birth and men to be leaders as soon they are married.
The culture has lead to people jumping into marriages very fast at a young age just because they fall in love and want to have sex.
Imagine if everyone told you, you are bad and sinful if you have sex or masturbate before marriage and suddenly you are supposed to have sex with someone after a wedding ceremony? Imagine if you have married someone and then figured out that the person you just married is almost a stranger? "Oh welp, I actually don't click well with this person and now we are married and we have a kid on the way."
Its these situations I meant when talking about waiting for marriage and feeling shame. Fine if a person has decided on their own but if the decision comes from a fundamentalist tradition its something else. Its no longer a preferense but something forced upon someone else.
@@PeregrinaNot an ultimatum but more like consent. If he doesn't want to have relations before marriage it's absolutely his choice. Bella can choose to agree to it or not. He wasn't forcing her to, she was free to make her decision.
As a romance writer, Bella and Edward actually kind of have a good arc! It's not necessarily well-written (although to be fair SMeyer does have her moments; New Moon's blank pages for Bella's depressive episode is perhaps melodramatic but also...literally the best way to express the things depression does not only to your subjective experience but also to your memory) but a girl who has found human connection to be unreliable because it always ends up hurting her and a boy who has actively avoided connection out of fear of hurting people both realizing that the risk is what makes that connection important and they'll both be hurt and hurt others no matter what, so they may as well attempt connection and happiness...it's good! It's a great "the same solution to opposite problems" set up! The fact that the external threats to their relationship are easily overcome when they work together is (or should be, with writing that supports it) a great underlining of the theme and the lesson they both need to learn! They struggle for longer than many couples because instead of each having something to teach each other, they are grappling with the same problem and not necessarily keeping pace!
Also a girl from Phoenix falling in love with a vampire IS intrinsically hilarious and interesting for the sheer "wait, how is that going to work?"
It is kind of a shame that Meyer's writing often didn't keep pace with her ideas, and that no one ever reined her in on the uhhh horrific racism present in multiple worldbuilding decisions, but like. It's a fundamentally relatable and compelling story. It's a little goofy and sometimes melodramatic, but it's both a teen romance and a vampire story. Goofy and melodramatic are both going to happen!
Exactly! Despite the many flaws and some terrible writing decisions, it's also kind of genius to write a story about a vampire battling his stalker homicidal tendencies as he experiences his first love. Weirdly enough, I think Edward is supposed to be invasive, controlling, intense, arrogant and kind of creepy. He's a vampire after all.
The part where it goes south is the fact that Stephenie failed to write an arch where the characters recognize the problems, learn and then overcome them. The story never digs deep enough into him being a real danger for Bella, not just a protector, how awful Edward was sometimes, and the nuances of that relationship. And don't get me started in the werewolves, Jacob's character and the quileute tribe, .
The fact that publishers kept trying to turn Stephenie into the new JK Rowling also didn't help. She clearly didn't care about vampire politics, universe lore and battle scenes and just wanted to write romance, so the big picture plot was a wild ride. There's a huge difference between the book she wanted to write, the saga the publishers wanted her to write, and what we ended up reading.
I'm interested in hearing more about the racism. Do you mean the shit with the Quileute tribe?
@@novakitty1619If I recall correctly, there was something to the tune of "vampires can't be Black because they must be pale and beautiful." One hopes she's learned better in the past decade and change.
Honestly, I hope she watches Castlevania: Nocturne one day. Those vampires??? Beautiful, sublime, terrifying, threatening, brutal, powerful, incredible. With a dash of romance! And politics! And abolition! And omg the themes! Everyone who likes vampires should watch this show, honestly.
Racism my ass. Anyone who says Twilight is racist is just projecting
@@gabrielamedradobecause it was originally fan fiction turned into a book
"sometimes when i watch press junket interviews i feel like im watching a performance art piece on the meaninglessness of human connection"
you're right, Robert seems sweet and genuine {and now i understand why i was endeared by Edward in the movies}. watching him fed to the soulless like Hollywood machine im wincing..
It’s easy to forget that those things are just part of the job for actors, of course they’ll get sick of it eventually
The one hour, ten minute, forty five second video defending Edward Cullen that I have been longing for!!!!
Lol blessings 🙏
@@themorbidzoo can you please do a problematic video about Jacob
@@themorbidzoo have you read midnight sun
@@madisonmason9179 Yup
And absolutely no filler, either!
I'm scared because right now I'm reading Twilight, and I'm actually... surprised... shocked... that despite all its flaws and weird quirks it's a thoroughly enjoyable experience. The plot devices are fun, the tropes are played with in ways I haven't seen yet, and S Meyer (for all her faults) struck gold.
Bahaha it's a horrible thing to realize, that you suddenly like Twilight. My sympathies
Because it was originally fan fiction. People keep forgetting this.
@@tffnyc1033it wasn't
@@tffnyc1033you’ve gotten things mixed up. 50 shades was originally twilight fanfic. twilight was not fanfic the idea supposedly came to Stephenie in a dream
@@tffnyc1033it was actually based on a dream
I just found this and really love it. I'm someone who was a tween and teen during the age of Twilight and I unapologetically loved it. As I got older the criticism got through to me and I was embarrassed that I liked it as a kid. Now I'm 28 and revisiting the series so I can make my own opinion. And guess what, I do really enjoy it!. It's lots of fun. And like many people say, I wouldn't want so.e of Edward's behaviors in a real-life relationship. But are we forgetting that he is a vampire? Some of his behaviors make sense in that context. And I feel the real fantasy lies in the fact that his base instincts tell him to kill her, but he loves her too much to follow through. That is fun, romantic drama right there. Just my two cents.
Thanks so much! The hate is so overblown. Usually laced with sexism too. Glad you found the video! 😊
my thing on the scene after they do the do and she's bruised is only one opinion: She seems fully into it tbh. She isn't acting wounded or scared, she wanted more of that exact thing.
Edward was the only scared one tbh
Edward cannot sadly understand he is more than a "monster" or the worst person alive. He can be good/is good but cant see that. For example he saved Bellas life in the first film/book by sucking out the venom but somehow twists it to him almost killing her. He saved her but thinks he hurt her by saving her? Make it make sense Edward
Yeah, it's kind of the most realistic personal interaction in the series. I'm not particularly a fan but the way Edward is fully self involved about Bella's physical and moral safety is deeply real.
Unsurprisingly, the submissive fantasy written by a submissive woman for the stated purpose of entertaining herself has a somewhat accurate portrayal of a very normal submissive/masochist experience: being _far more into it_ than the partner, who probably doesn't want to hurt you in the first place but is willing to try it anyway because they love you. Really, her subsequently having to try _very hard_ to convince him that she was in fact having fun and would very much like to do that again just sells it better to me. I always thought it was a very wholesome depiction.
Honestly I just read it as kinky. Nothin wrong with that, if you're into it 🤷
Edward just really needed some good top aftercare that Bella didn't yet know how to provide. It always struck me as essentially two baby kinksters wading through the muddy trenches of a new dynamic. Nothing inherently, permanently wrong with it, it just takes time, trial and error, and most of all loads and loads of good communication to get things right.
There is an undercurrent of Mormonism within the Twilight universe, how much is intentional and subconscious on Myers part I’m unsure. However, Roman Catholicism was the literal bloodline within almost all of Anne Rice’s books. I always thought that the Catholic tone of Interview with the Vampire was so potent it was almost impossible to understand the themes without yourself being Catholic. Rice is considered a literary genius whereas Myers can’t exist without a level of criticism disproportionate to her abilities.
There is no undercurrent of Mormomism within the Twilight universe. Subconsciously or consciously
@@leahscontemporaryedward and bella get married without ever having lived together or anything. that’s not a criticism but it’s pretty common for mormons.
also bella’s canon dress-sense is just so painfully mormon.
@@tonoornottono it's pretty common with alot of people all over the world. This is the kind of stuff that happens when you reach too hard to find a connection
@@leahscontemporarymany years ago when the first twilight movie was in theaters Meyers had a page dedicated on her website to Mormonism and links to information about the church. I don’t know her motivation as at this time it was becoming common knowledge that she was a Latter Day Saint, and it’s possible she wanted to address her beliefs in a passive manner. Edward and Bella having an eternal marriage sealed with children is very much a Mormon belief, and I always saw this aspect as being very much related to Myers beliefs. This doesn’t make the books bad or negate her talents as a writer, it’s just an observation.
@@tonoornottono also pretty common for catholics
When ever someone hates on Robert Pattinson because of how he talks about those movies, I remember that clip where Tyra Banks demands that he bite her neck on her show, and you can see the final ounce of joy in his life leave his eyes.
I love the breakdown of why age gaps are creepy and why "but he's over 100!" didn't quite make sense to me. Great analysis, keep up the great work 👍
The narrative went out of its way to say that edward was basically 17 forever. When anime did this with thousand year old 8 year olds, people accurately identified that as literally a child, but when it’s a dude suddenly he’s a predator?
@@joshraid1550i mean being attracted to a 8 year old body is definitely weirder than being attracted to an 18 year old body
thats not what the comment above was implying. It has been stated in the twilight saga that vampire children were eliminated without exception, because they wouldn't grow up mentally/physically and therefore retain their infantile behaviour and couldn't be taught self moderation. Therefore Twilight makes it more than obvious that Edward, even as a 100 year old vampire, retains both the body and mind of an adolescent young man. @@talia9895
@@talia9895I'm sorry, I know this is not your point but this comment rubbed me the wrong way. It's essentially reads as "it's better to be attracted to someone with an adult's body and a mind of a child than someone with a child's body with a mind of an adult" which is. Uh. Not great? Like, child predators are not bad because of the aesthetics being weird or whatever, it's because of the trauma they cause since children are not mature enough to consent.
(Btw, there are actually illnesses that can permanently make you look like a child. And there are a lot of adults looking like teens, and teens looking like adults. I don't like how we recently became so focused on the "aesthetic" of a real and serious problem (also, lowkey driven by all the radfems saying shit like "if a man likes shaved women they're a pedo" as if that was remotely similar in any way) instead of the issue itself.
@@panonymousbloom5405i feel this as a 20something who keeps getting mistaken for a highschooler. Those kinds of opinions just seem kinda infantalizing and straight up bodyshaming. Like baby faced adults aren't be allowed to be loved by fellow adults bc of they could be marked as "pedo". Also, I have a friend older than me who has been stuck with the height and appearance of a child bc of a mishap with their growth hormone during a surgery. I try to take them seriously in between doting on them
Applause for voicing this point so eloquently! Ever since the Twilight Renaissance when people finish off their retrospective with "well, the thing ain't good, but it made people happy so... okay" I felt a bit off. Baby talking to teenagers isn't great, but like you said, everyone to a certain extent went through something that felt like Twilight. Growing up is confusing as hell, and making decisions for the first time in your like regarding morality, acceptance and so on is even worse. So thank you, from the bottom of my heart, on taking the stance that it did have a point, even if most people seem to dislike the point it tried to make!
All I’m saying is this series had a huge cultural impact and the only reason it gets as much hate as it does is because it was enjoyed by primarily teen girls. And we all know that teen girls are *never* allowed to enjoy things sans ridicule.
Great point! As a Beatles fan, reading old press clippings from the 1960s, so much of the poo-pooing of their music was "it's so stupid even teen girls like it!" Now, it's just seen as great music.
Honestly, my ardent love for Twilight as a 13yo and my friends' hatred of it cast away the illusion I had of other people's tastes and opinions. I realised people can't be trusted to determine what my tastes are. Just because my friends find something silly (and only because it is trendy to find it silly) doesn't mean I will find it silly.
except for the racism, cultural appropriation, genuine and deep sexism, misogyny and conservatism present in the series…yeah. I’m not saying it can’t be enjoyed, or that it’s not enjoyable like I’m absolutely willing to believe that people who enjoy the series have considered these issues, or accept that ppl occasionally want something to enjoy uncritically, but reducing criticism of twilight to “ppl can’t let teen girls enjoy things” is super reductive when the series has such deep rooted problems.
@@charlotte2845 oh no those criticisms are absolutely valid and should be talked about. But those aren’t the criticisms that 99.99999% have for it. My comment was addressing that type of criticism.
There are two kinds of opinions on Twilight. People who identify with Bella Swan, and people who think that is a _problem._
If twilight was really patriarchal propaganda I don't think Meyer would have ever written a gender bent version in which the male Bella is just as fragile and clumsy and the female Edward is just as formidable and sexy
Exactly!
To be fair, (taking into account Mormon ideology-which Meyer believes in, as well as, impressed upon the book) it’s not that far out to say twilight reinforces patriarchal ideals. Most of society thinks in such a way that falls in step with patriarchy, and twilight is no different. Is it a sin? No! Twilight can absolutely be framed as an entertaining, romance franchise.
However, the gender-bent version didn’t do anything to press upon the status-quo. It really was just a story of a vampire girl with her boyfriend, and the ending and overall storyline was entirely different. It’s hard to compare considering the OG plot, but tbh, there’s nothing from meyer’s work that could be directly considered feminist. Which, again, is totally fine!
@katie-gf5wq as was twilight. It was simply a story about a human and a vampire relationship. That power dynamic is the same regardless of gender
@@leahscontemporary I can agree in the sense that stephanie meyer hasn't written anything mentally or ideologically challenging
@katie-gf5wq well you've just come hate then. I think her writing is intelligent and well constructed. But back to that first point, the fact is Stephenie Meyer directly states there is no overarching Mormom ideology anywhere in those books. In fact she seemed to intentionally try to avoid Mormonism in the story.
In her own words:
"When I hear or read theories about Bella being an anti-feminist character, those theories are usually predicated on her choices. In the beginning, she chooses romantic love over everything else. Eventually, she chooses to marry at an early age and then chooses to keep an unexpected and dangerous baby. I never meant for her fictional choices to be a model for anyone else’s real life choices. She is a character in a story, nothing more or less. On top of that, this is not even realistic fiction, it’s a fantasy with vampires and werewolves, so no one could ever make her exact choices. Bella chooses things differently than how I would do it if I were in her shoes, because she is a very different type of person than I am. Also, she’s in a situation that none of us has ever been in, because she lives in a fantasy world. But do her choices make her a negative example of empowerment? For myself personally, I don’t think so.
In my own opinion (key word), the foundation of feminism is this: being able to choose. The core of anti-feminism is, conversely, telling a woman she can’t do something solely because she’s a woman-taking any choice away from her specifically because of her gender. “You can’t be an astronaut, because you’re a woman. You can’t be president because you’re a woman. You can’t run a company because you’re a woman.” All of those oppressive “can’t”s.
One of the weird things about modern feminism is that some feminists seem to be putting their own limits on women’s choices. That feels backward to me. It’s as if you can’t choose a family on your own terms and still be considered a strong woman. How is that empowering? Are there rules about if, when, and how we love or marry and if, when, and how we have kids? Are there jobs we can and can’t have in order to be a “real” feminist? To me, those limitations seem anti-feminist in basic principle.
Do I think eighteen is a good age at which to get married? Personally-as in, for the person I was at eighteen-no. However, Bella is constrained by fantastic circumstances that I never had to deal with. The person she loves is physically seventeen, and he’s not going to change. If she and he are going to be on a healthy relationship footing, she can’t age too far beyond him. Also, marriage is really an insignificant commitment compared to giving up your mortality, so it’s funny to me that some people are hung up on one and not the other. Is eighteen too young to give up your mortality? For me, any age is too young for that. For Bella, it was what she really wanted for her life, and it wasn’t a phase she was going to grow out of. So I don’t have issues with her choice. She’s a strong person who goes after what she wants with persistence and determination."
Bella may want what she needs from the beginning, but there is conflict in that her wishes are not accepted by others, including the one who can grant them. In this can be seen a story of a woman who knew how she wanted to live her life but had to stand strong in the face of conflicting opinions from everyone around her who thought they knew better, as well as having to make the choice of a life she herself preferred rather than living for someone else (Charlie). In that sense, Twilight is feminist.
That's the way I always saw it. Bella is a character with a lot of agency and the end gets what she wants, in spite of the disagreement of the males around her. I would say that's pro feminist!
as someone whos been driven as long as i can remeber by just a desire to love and be loved its not easy sticking with this path, sure theres been lots of pain and i have been changed by it, but i tried others being a # gielboss and that was much worse hurt me without any upside and was nothing i wanted in life, now im in a poly relationship with 2 wonderful partners and never felt more right, the concepts many self proclaimed feminists have of what is and isnt valid to want exclude women like me and are often extremely patriarchal ironically, treating being driven by love and desire or art as frivolous, unimportant, and to some maybe those are but to me even with all the struggles ive been through to get here (which mostly came from circumstances of being forced to try to live a life that wasnt about love and passion that wasnt mine) i wouldn't choose to live another way, i couldn't this is me and always has been, and to me tryna be the head girlboss feels unimportant a struggle with no real payoff not one that matters to me, some of this is no doubt informed by the difficulty i face in those things being higher than most due to disability, but in the end regardless of reason i exist and i choose this and have to fight to choose it over and over against a world that tells me i shouldn't that i need to be something else, feminism should be about freeing women to choose their own path not forcing every person to be a trailblazer, cuz thats not everyone, its ablest, and sexist to assume traditionally fem things have no value, they do have value it just shouldnt be forced on people to be any one way
That actually fits really well with the reading of Bella's arc being her growing up. You could say in some sense she's being infantilized, and she has to push back against that to grow up.
Absolutely gorgeous conclusions. I always identified with Bella because I've always been easily attached and overly forgiving of flaws and easily emotionally damaged by abandonment and insecurity in relationships. I didn't think their romance was aspirational, it's relatable. The powerful beautiful man with the power to hurt you beyond repair? Yeah I've had that... But the aspirational part was that Edward WANTED to be good for her, he wanted her to have a happy healthy normal life and he made her a stronger version of herself through his support. And your partner making you stronger doesn't have to be misogynistic... He does have a moral code and classical values that are rare in society today. He's not possessive or controlling. This is Edward's first relationship too, he's just fell into a path of pain paved in good intentions.... Which is more than you can say for many men who have murky intentions the whole time
Exaaaactly. Relatable, not aspirational. It's a fucked up implication of a lot of the criticisms of Twilight that if you fall fast for a guy and you don't immediately bail when there's a problem in the relationship, whether or not you should, there's something very wrong with you as a woman. Some people you fall for actually are bad for you and will make your life worse, but it's lunacy to suggest it's always that easy to recognize a good relationship from a bad one. That's what's dangerous about relationships to begin with. They require vulnerability, and vulnerability is by definition putting yourself in a position to be hurt. It's insulting to suggest that the way girls and women reacted to Twilight was because they all want to BE Bella, rather than just seeing their own experience in her. Thanks for the watch!
I honestly always thought Edward was a complicated character for good reason, he is a noble man essentially a hero placed in the circumstances to be a monster...yet perseveres to let his higher nature prevail. Critics never talk about the struggles of this complicated character, as a writer I think Stephanie Meyers was on to something. In my opinion his character is relatable to both men and women, especially with the struggle of choosing our better nature instead of what comes easy.
Can you do a video for Bella as well? I feel like she also gets a lot of undeserved criticism.
Bet, I'll put her on my list
@@themorbidzoo hyped for this. I appreciate bella as a YA protagonist who embraces being mundane.
@@cicadeus7741 Being mundane is not the problem with Bella
@@themorbidzooplease do it!! I’ve binged a bunch of videos on your channel, and this one is my favorite. This is my second watch!!
@@breezy3392 Exactly lol. It's her agency/romanticisation of depression & co-dependency etc
It's also quite nice how Twilight and Midnight Sun complement each other as "coming of age" stories for both Edward and Bella. Edward battling his stalker homicidal vampire tendencies as he navigated his first love, understanding attraction, jealousy, insecurity, and learning boundaries as a mighty powerful and lethal being, was kinda great storytelling.
Bella being a girl who had to step up where adults in her life couldn't, becoming a teen who couldn't quite relate to her peers, then going to the very same city where her mom felt pressured into a traditional housewife role, but finding some empowerment and release from patriarchy by becoming a vampire and entering a community where everyone was equally capable, strong, beautiful and rich could have been a quite interesting and progressive take. Weirdly, I think that Stephenie Meyer was trying to explore that in her own very flawed way.
And I might die on this hill, but I can see how in Eclipse Stephenie really tried to build an arch to show Bella and Edward working towards a healthier relationship. Bella finally realized that Edward wasn't perfect, started to establish some boundaries and trust her own judgement. Edward started to realize that a lot of his creepy controlling behaviors towards Bella were not just for protection or with her best interest at heart, but also motivated by patterns and feelings he didn't recognize. Both tried to communicate and have important conversations, learning how to honor each others needs and find compromises.
Of course all of that was influenced by some degree of wrong or dangerous beliefs about race, gender roles, love, marriage, sexuality and whatnot, and that might have something to do with Stephenie's religion, community and upbringing. But ultimately, she just wasn't the super reactionary mormon she was painted to be, and it doesn't seem like she was trying to push any anti-feminist agenda.
She has actually stated that Bella was never meant to be a feminist icon, but rather a “normal” girl. And she also stated that, to her, the idea of feminism is the ability for a woman to chose what she wants. And that is exactly what Bella did, say what ever you want about Bella and her choices, but she is the one who decided to make them, no one made those decisions for her. So in that way, Bella is a feminist, just not a feminist icon who is destroying all previous held beliefs on something, she’s just a young woman who chooses how to live her life…and later afterlife.
Also, Myers has also stated that she sees anti-feminism as people saying that you can’t do something “because you’re a woman,” and nowhere did Bella ever say or do something with the mindset that she couldn’t do something because she was a woman.
Edward has always been my favourite character. He is the original "man written by women" because he is so understanding, committed, and more importantly devoted entirely to Bella and her independence, wants, and life. He is the dream tortured heart-throb, and Robert Pattinson did an excellent job portraying him as such.
Yessss! He’s a fantasy, but a caring one. He’s okay with Jacob kissing Bella because he’s so fully committed to Bella’s happiness that he wants her to be with Jacob if that’s what makes her happy. It’s why he doesn’t want her to be a vampire, he wants her to have a normal life outside of him and he eventually realizes that, “Hey, maybe she is right for wanting to be a vampire, maybe I should trust her to determine for herself what is best for her.” He capitulates to having sex with her before she turns because SHE wants it, but waits until after they’re married because for him that’s a hard line. They legitimately compromise.
@@Blueeyesthewarriorhes such a cuck 😭 he let bella cheat on him and didnt press an issue at all
Pretty much the only criticism you _can_ level at Edward as a person is that he really is just _too perfect._ He is for a very specific kind of person(Meyers herself, namely) quite literally the platonic ideal of a perfect husband, complete with eternal youth to spend forever with him.
“Too perfect!?” Oh for the love of god - no! May I remind you of at least two lines that come out of this stalkers mouth.
“I just like watching you sleep.”
- Edward Cullen
“I was right next to you the whole time Bella”
- a very gaslighting Edward Cullen
He is so creepy dude, he’s also violent, obsessive, and possessive. He is a textbook abuser. Even if it’s not physically he is extremely emotionally abusive. I’m not saying he’s a bad character, or it’s bad to like him, that’s totally fine! You can have a crush on a fictional character that is a little less than healthy in the head, but when you start to normalize and excuse awful behavior, it sets the tone for that awful behavior to leave the book and to be normalized in real life.
Don’t do this, let the behavior stay in the book.
@@DarlingDearest076thank you for being sensible
I think the only flaw in the twilight saga is that Bella is mostly driven by her feelings for Edward, and she has no more personality apart from these two boys she fell for, we don’t get to see her interests or goals or develop real friendships
A part of the apeal of the book for me was the fantasy of never being sick or poor and having a family with unconditional love. Like, i enjoyed the romance, for sure. But basically the concept of having a life that didnt have any of challenges I faced IRL? That was amazing and I dont see it as talked about. Bella didnt get a boyfriend, she got a lifestyle.
This 🤌🏾
Like yeah the relationship was nice but I was parentafied like Bella. Dealt with foster care, I was moving when I got the book out it down a few months and came back regretful that I had. I loved the Cullens, the idea of that family and the escapism they provided.
Bella also touched on this a bit in New Moon, their leaving was like a funeral because her family left her. More or less that’s what she said. She ended up with the wolf family but it wasn’t the same. I can’t explain it right but I think I get what you’re saying. Bella was writing to be relatable. She wasn’t really exceptional in the human world anyways and she fit exactly where she wanted to be. I think that’s ultimately what made her relatable.
The fear of relationships doesn’t only happen in romance but family and friendships as well. I always admired how Edward swallows his wants and impulses and hurts for Bella’s sake. He is committed. And it’s something I experience everyday with any kind of relationship. Feelings and my own nature sometimes go against true love and it’s an internal fight
Omg yesss. The idea of commitment not as sacrificing your own needs but as suppressing your worst impulses is a surprisingly sophisticated message, and an important one
Exactly!
this captured so much of why I love the series and I always like describing the series as having great concepts without great execution (which is what fanfics are for) but honestly, thank you for this, this is a really great video.
Yeah! I think it’s kind of touching that a series with these themes was such a cultural event despite how mediocre the execution is ha. Thanks for the watch :)
I used to think why is Edward and Bella’s age gap such a problem when ppl love couples like Kagome and Inuyasha? She’s from modern day Japan while he’s from medieval Japan, and I haven’t heard one complaint. When Wendy decides to grow up and Peter Pan comes back and takes Jane to Neverland, is that creepy? Is he seen as an old man stuck in a child’s body? So I’ve just come to the conclusion that everyone hating on Bella and Edward’s “age difference” are just picking and choosing which age gaps are okay and not okay to them
Yep, I think this is pretty much it. "This makes me uncomfortable and I'm not willing to interrogate why, so let's find something arbitrary to pick on"
That is such a dumb criticism. Let's forget for a moment that Edward is physically the same age as Bella, but that in real life I have yet to hear about a teenage boy who is over a hundred years old...so I fail to see the problematic message for readers, if the plot twist is "fairly" impossible in the real world.
Think Aragorn/Arwen. The age gap is actually some 2000 years. Yet nobody has ever batted an eye over Arwen being a groomer or something, since they met when Aragorn was a teen and have lived together for a long time in Rivendell.
What I believe is that people should just let go a little of the humanization of _fantasy_ characters. Vampires and elves are a different race. Their brains work differently. Their sex drive works differently. They are NOT human - in fact they are immortal - thus human morality cannot be 100% imposed onto them.
I would argue that someone who can't die (of natural causes) will inherently ascend to some kind of.... higher wisdom state of being and mind, after about the 100 year mark, it's inevitable. (That can be why Edward is already like an oldschool "grandpa" in 2005.) They are not tied, emotionally, timely, religiously, regionally, healthwise, or any other way, to pesky human fears and doubts, their problems are entirely different. That's why the clash of these races/cultures is so wholly exciting and electrifying, that's why we fantasize about being them, or being with them, and it's simply stupid to believe that anyone who enjoys fantasy including characters like this must be a pedophile or something.
@@NemamkaSimilar vein, Thor in the Marvel movies is supposed to be around 1500 years old in Asgardian years, but in human years, he's in his 20s. It's weird if the fantasy race ages mentally seemingly at the same rate humans do, instead of scaling the ratio up to suit a longer life span. I think the more uncomfortable pairings are when the older person is just older, period, even if you adjust with the age. So a 17 year old character with a fantasy character who would still scale down to like, a 30 year old, is uncomfortable.
the age gap thing is the worst criticism of edward out of all. that and the sparkling thing
The main reason I loved Twilight was how it flipped the vampire narrative on its head. Instead of living in some faraway castle in Romania, they live amongst us. The danger is amongst us. And that's reality. The biggest threats aren't hiding out in back alleys waiting to spring on unsuspecting victims. They're our neighbors and peers.
Thank you! Finally somebody actually talks about the PLOT and not just crap about character relationships! 🙏🏻
I mean, Twilight wasn't the first to do that by any means.
Interview With A Vampire, World of Darkness, The Vampire Diaries. All of these portrayed vampires living amongst us. I think it was actually pretty common by the time of Twilight.
Twilight didn't do that, though.
I feel in the analysis of vampires you miss that the vampire can also be frightening because on a truly base level, asides from the works of British authors and interpretation, vampires are also representative of the resentment felt by feudal serfs towards their lords. The idea of an aristocrat who literally sucks the blood of his lessers reveals what serfs truly thought of their lord in an interesting way, and that through line can carry forth. In interview with a vampire for example, Louis was literally a slaver who drank from his slaves and Lestat is an aristocrat (even if he is poor). This isn’t the primary focus of the novel, but I still think it’s important that all of these prominent vampires are rich, white, and literally suck the blood from the poor
Vampires are capitalism basically, and that’s still frightening
"He's boring, that means he's on God's side." made me laugh too hard. Great essay!
Thanks for this. I was 27 when I got hooked on the books and it reminded me of the old world romance I read as a kid like from "Jane Eyre", "Pride and Prejudice" as well as "Anne of Green Gables". I love that Edward is old school and protective.
Thanks for the watch!
I gotta say, this is the first time I've ever seen anyone compare Twilight with Anne of Green Gables TBH haha
I love seeing how in all of its infamy, Twilight has inspired so much discussion. Regardless of if I think it's "objectively" good or bad, I'm happy that I grew up in the time of Twilight, because it is such an interesting stand-apart work of fiction. It dove head-first into romantic ideals in a way that most modern narratives just don't, and this video covered that SO well! Why can't something be both ridiculous and wonderful? Why can't a work of fiction surrender to all the things we aren't supposed to as real people? That said, it did kinda lead to the awful trend of fanfics-to-film-franchises and cursed us with the wolf man, so I'm so glad this was in the defense of Edward, specifically!!
Completely agree. Twilight is such a weird artifact, and I'm glad to have it as an example of my personal growth and ability to change opinions, if nothing else. Thanks so much for the watch and kind words!
I was born in provo, utah and raised extremely mormon, as well as being a young girl around the time twilight spiked in popularity. Twilight was extra popular in Utah because mormons are very proud of their own, and I was deeply into it for years. Your comments that boil down to being a mormon housewife likely informs the values meyer has and what she thinks is romantic, but her writing doesn't actively push an agenda are correct, in my opinion. Abstinence until marriage is obviously a very mormon value and the value on the marriage as a whole are things that align well with what you're taught as a girl in mormonism, but in as much as the culture you grow up with influence the things you'll like and make.
I agree with what you said. I don't like how Twilights criticism comes from Stephanie being a mormon. Its weird honestly.
Meyer even has her protagonist, who she probably loves and identifies with, really strongly desire to have sex before marriage and try to have sex before marriage. Her desires are not treated as a fundamental flaw or mortal sin, and for people to argue that Edwards desire to wait until marriage is somehow bad implies Edward’s boundaries and desires don’t matter, that men owe sex to their partners, that those who hold those spiritual belief are fundamentally flawed- it’s quite bad.
@@llcdrdndgrbd Yeah. If the genders were reversed, Edward would have been considered an SAer.
The fear against marriage are weird. People treat it as she was chained in a basement or something. It’s just a committed relationship and they could still break up?
Besides it’s unfair to dunk so much on the author’s private beliefs. Not to mention, this is a supernatural story, if in the story the Mormon god is canonically real, then that’s how it is. Some people are just religious and you can’t force them not to add their ideology in their media.
Adding this on quickly; I also feel like ppl immediately regard Bella (and the girls she represents) as stupid, vapid and naive. Bell might be very much an ingenue but she’s also a pretty well-rounded person. She was parentified by both of her parents and became almost entirely responsible for keeping the homes together at 10 years old, making sure all the bills were paid on time, learning to cook young because the food her mother and father made was inedible, getting a job at 14, going grocery shopping the second she got a drivers permit at 15, doing almost all the household chores and still doing okay at school. She was bad at math and PE, she cried whenever she got mad or felt made fun of, she struggled to connect with people her own age because of the unstable and adultified life she’s had to live. She felt like her mom was her best friend and felt responsible for both of her parents because she didn’t feel like they were really capable of taking care of themselves and therefore felt guilt for not spending more time with her father growing up and simultaneously felt guilting for leaving her mother to “fend for herself.” She grew to like and eventually fall in love with Edward for very cute, mostly normal reasons (he’s hot and actively listens to everything she says.)
I'm very very liberal & I like Twilight (aside from that whole wolf telepathy scene where I had to leave the theater for a few minutes because I could not stop laughing at that ridiculousness). I did, however, make sure to explain to my girls the problematic parts, ya know, like a responsible parent who wants their children to have healthy relationships. There are red flags that would be incredibly problematic if they happened in real life, just like with darn near all movies ever.
"Just like with darn near all movies ever" YES. Twilight isn't special that way, we use stories to think about stuff we wouldn't necessarily like to happen in real life. I can't help but think there's a little bit of misogyny in the idea that girls have to be protected from the bad bad vampire book. Thanks for the watch!
@@themorbidzoo I don't think the problem is keeping the book away from kids. I think the problem is making kids aware of the problematic issues. The red flags in this series are packaged as romantic. I read these when I was 12-14 and while I enjoyed the book I was also aware of the problems in it, but I was in the minority on that. And I was legitimately scared for girls my age who believed it, who believed that if a guy shows those kinds of behaviors - stalking, controlling, manipulating, invading privacy - its just because he loves you. And yes, Twilight is not the only example of this, it's just one that's very well known.
@@breezy3392 completely agree, that’s a societal issue, which is absolutely where patriarchy comes into play- who is in charge of making kids aware of this and why aren’t they. The only point I’m want to make is that those worries are too often wrapped up with things that are 100% okay to fantasize about, but shamed for being girly and dumb, with a thin veneer of feminism to cover that up. Shit drives me insane lol
@@themorbidzoo My little cousin is around the same age I was when I got these books and she's getting into reading (and even writing some things of her own, I'm proud of her for that). She's asking me for books and I've given her things like The Hunger Games. I don't want to give her Twilight tbh, but if she asks for it I'd let her read it as long as I can sit down and talk to her about it. Personally, that's what I can do about it.
@@breezy3392 that’s awesome. :) I don’t think I would actively give any daughter of mine Twilight any more than I would actively give her Barbies, but if she were into that I certainly wouldn’t make her feel like that’s somehow a wrong interest. Lord knows we never do that for boys and their shitty media. Either way, talking to them about it is key for sure
This is one of the best-written, most well-thought-out video essays I've ever had the pleasure of watching. Thank you
thank you so much!! 😭
This is genuinely the most refreshing and well thought out take of Twilight I ever heard! Thank you for this incredible piece, I will be sending it to all the haters :)
Thank you!!!
I can see how much work you put into this video and it is a great analysis, so I wanna congratulate you and thank you for that. I would also like to add something that pisses me off about all this Twilight hatred in a particular way, namely how people - and when I say people, I think it's mostly a certain category of feminists that does this - hate Bella for being "useless", for "doing nothing" for being the "demoiselle in distress". They compare her to Hermione saying how Hermione was so amazing with all her smarts and spells and punching Slytherins in the face and being a badass. In today's society, that's pretty much the narrative: that if you wanna matter as a woman, you need to be more like a man, you need to constantly compare yourself with a man and prove "everything he can do you can do better" and all that. And somehow if you chose your life legacy to be teaching kindergarten or being a housewife, you're just not successful, cause basically if you're not some sort of girl boss, who are you? And from my humble point of view, for a 17 years old girl with no special magical powers whatsoever, Bella is incredibly strong and brave. I'd love to see how brave they were at that age. It's just not fair that just because she doesn't fight with a sword or guns or shoot lasers from her eyes while walking sexy in slow motion all Lara Croft-like, her courage and sacrifices aren't viewed as valid or important. In the books we are told how she takes care of her mom, she cooks and takes care of the household, she sacrifices her happiness multiple times so that the ones around her get to live their happiness, even when she moves in with her dad she's more concerned with his happiness and worries about him being lonely. She never gets pushed around and doesn't give up, her intuition and emotion tells her what she wants and what she doesn't want and she is going for it without blinking, willing to accept whatever consequences there might be. When she thinks James kidnapped her mom she doesn't think twice about going there to die so that Renee can hopefully be safe. And not to mention when everyone was freaked out about her baby killing her, how all she cared about was her baby being born healthy, no matter if it killed her in the process. And I've heard people saying she does all this because she's just emo and suicidal and bored with her life and doesn't have anything good to live for. But isn't it kinda dumb to look at it that way? Even when she becomes a vampire, her special power is a shield, because she's always been a protector and an intuitive person, which is the ultimate feminine energy. She's always been lead by love, not just for Edward, but love in general. She is very similar to Carlisle in that way, I think. Cause he is also a person that chose to be good, to help others, to be a protector. And passive protection is just as valid and important as active protection. She reminds me of this quote that goes: "Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid" which is what happens in twilight, her courage, love and determination inspire people to wanna join their cause, get involved. The wolves join them, the other vampires join them, because what they're there to protect is something we all care for and need in the world: love and truth. Everything Bella wanted, she's been told she can't have, yet she managed to get. Even when the Cullens told her that once she becomes a vampire she'll have to say goodbye to her parents for good, well, the universe bent to her will so that she could. So, I would love to hear your thoughts on this, Maybe you can make another video on it some time :)
Aw, thanks for the watch and the incredibly thoughtful comment. ☺I completely agree, the idea (that at least in academic circles is blessedly starting to become unfashionable) that the best way to be a woman is to directly compete with men is all over the critiques of Twilight. I think that's especially funny and interesting given the direct comparison to Harry Potter those critics often deploy, which today in the year of our lord 2022 is itself considered pretty cringe and outdated. And it's rough for a critic, because like, I get it, you don't want media that sets what could be a bad example for people, especially vulnerable people, to follow. The thing that bothers me most about Twilight hate in this regard is the apparent assumption that only boys and men are equipped to tell the difference between fantasy and reality-- that they can watch people kill and maim each other in action movies without feeling the literal urge to maim and kill people in real life, but if we give girls and women the fantasy of a relationship that is magical and empowering in the most improbably perfect way, they'll think it's literally real and that's all they'll care about in the future. It's a huge hand-tip that reveals the lowkey misogyny of certain feminist critics, not to mention the implicit erasure of any queer or nonbinary people who might be into romantic fantasies about hot Halloween monsters.
@Indigo Rodent The kind that encounters Alice Manic Pixie Dreamgirl and they become close :))
@Indigo Rodent This is interesting. She's very much an audience surrogate, it's interesting to see where the line between teenage gender roles is drawn in this way. It's much more about the intensity of feeling than the performance of a particular gender.
@@themorbidzooyeah. Intersex can be nonbinary.
My BIGGEST issue with Edward is that he stopped eating rapists and pedophiles, predators need a natural predator of their own and he can read minds so he knows without a shadow of a doubt that they are guilty... but he's just too damn Mormon and has an obsessive reverence for human life. *eyeroll* Other than that I think most of his controlling behaviors were just him being traumatized by losing his mother at 17 and nearly dying himself just to go and fall in love with an admittedly frail mortal. I think it speaks volumes that he immediately apologizes for underestimating Bella when she becomes a vampire and adapts to it like a duck to water.
He's happy to admit he was wrong and acting out of fear for the majority of their relationship, he's happy to admit he was wrong to project HIS hangups around vampirism onto Bella. Bella is more similar to Emmett, she LOVES being a vampire, and she also has a debilitating fear of aging lol. I also have a theory that Vampirism stunts brain development so while he has a lot more life experience, I fully believe Edward is working with the same partially formed 17-year-old frontal lobe as Bella is... and by the end, she's got at least a year of brain development on him! Because if his body stopped aging at 17 why would his brain do anything different??? Why else would he need to go to daddy and mommy for advice so often???? Like I know the vampire parents thing is to make them seem more normal but I feel like he actually needed parental guidance, and so did his siblings. Although I'm just going to keep pretending Carlisle is 43 and not 23 because wtf is that??????
Yes yes yes I like all of this. And completely agree on Carlisle, it's like a 10-year old's idea of "dad-aged" 😁
I don't think you read the book series. Lol!
It is a Cannon fact that their minds stop developing at the time they were changed. So even if they have permanent memory, decades of experience and knowledge their default actions and emotions, their instinctual emotions are of their age.
It takes something “profound” or life altering to change them. Like losing or gaining a partner. Once you go through that you can’t change. It’s why Victoria was so revengeful (besides losing a partner), why Jasper has a hard time adjusting to the “vegetarian” diet. The habits you set are pretty much permanent. It took falling for Bella and then her having their child for Edward to “mature”. Even Carlisle pointed it out, in the last movie and I think in the books as well. I don’t remember even after reading it more than 50 times.
But still, the world has no effect of creatures whose only desire and instinct is to feed. Developing feelings and maintaining a concerned consciousness is already pushing it.
Thank you for doing this. As an 11 year old, initially I LOVED Twilight, I had my room covered in the posters and read all the books over like two months even though I hadn't read anything before for pleasure that my school or family hadn't assigned. I was then laughed at for liking it at school and from then on for the rest of my teenage years I thought I could only enjoy it as a 'guilty pleasure', and lately since finding this video (amongst others), I realised for once, it doesn't have to be a pleasure to feel guilty about. As you said, it's a story about that intense 'hormonal' love that I think we are lucky to feel in our lives and tbh I agree it's nice to have a story about that, as it's a powerful, confusing feeling.
I agree with so many points in this video. But it’s not a defence of Edward, but Film Edward. And the actions of Book Edward that weren’t adapted undercuts the arguments made here.
That giggle by Michael Sheen is one of my favorite things ever 😂😂😂
I almost cried at the end of your beautiful analysis. I read twilight for the first time at 11 y/o and I'm 28 now, it was the book that started my love for books and reading, I've been watching a lot of analysis of the movies and books this past 3 years and I always get to see the story from a new perspective.
Thank you for your video, it was beautiful
“His most interesting story is at the melanoma clinic” 😭 thank you for this video
My only problem with this video is that you dismissed the racist implications Twilight has. Shanspeare did a video about the racial politics of twilight. How Stephenie Meyer did not want to include a racially diverse cast although the director asked her to, and only settled for Laurence to be black (a villain vampire). It is also interesting to see how she depicts the werewolves in comparison to the vampires. The vampires are beautiful and civilised yet they can cause deathly destruction. Meanwhile, the werewolves are good but are portrayed as aggressive and unhinged. It is also believed this is a problem because Mormonism is deeply racist and there is no denying that there are racist implications in the novel. We are not saying that Stephenie is racist for not making Jacob 'sexy enough'. or for making Bella choose Edward. It goes deeper than that. Please take more consideration into researching this
The video was already over an hour long, and incredibly insightful. She does not need consider every implication under the sun, which have already been considered in other videos, just to please you
@@cuca_ it is not insightful if it excuses racism. You can find HEAPS of articles on the internet and interviews that showcases Stephenie's BLATANT racism. Boiling down all the criticism to 'Jacob not being sexy enough' is tasteless and insulting when there were bigger issues. And no, its not pleasing me, but insulting Native Americans and POC out there
Lmaooo did you just excuse racism??? OP just stated that the creator dismissed all the racism in the books and you are defending that. You are wack and tasteless
I love kristen stewards acting choices. Book bella doesn't have two braincells to rub together and i think she really emulates that.
Gosh this was such a smart analysis. I was also in the group of 12 year olds who didn’t watch it because it was “stupid”. I saw the movies for the first time when I was 21, and they weren’t masterpieces, but they were enjoyable. I resent the idea that stories about love are for stupid, when like you said almost every person experiences love in some way. I think media also just loves to invalidate the interests of teenage girls. Like if the largest part of the audience is teenage girls then it’s automatically thought of as being dumb, without any further analysis. Of course the movies had problems - especially the appropriation of the Quileute, yikes - but the love story between Bella and Edward is decent entertainment. I wish teenage girls were allowed to enjoy things for just being fun to watch, instead of being ridiculed because they want to enjoy things that aren’t deeply intelligent classics or whatever lol.
Thanks for the watch! By that same token, it seems like a lot of media that's gendered feminine is always put under a lot of pressure to "be a good influence." What patronizing chickenshit. I think policing quality in that way also acts as a pretty effective smokescreen for unspoken ideologies or things we'd rather not think about as a society. I'm very happy to admit that there is cringe in Twilight lol, but I think there's another kind of "masterpiece" quality to a story that brings people together in a common experience the way Twilight did. It's a purely emotional story, and while emotions might not be classy or high-minded, they are never stupid.
@@themorbidzoo I agree! They were definitely a sort of cultural reset too, I think the Hunger Games is the only other series I can think of that changed media for a few years in the same way Twilight did. Your defence was great and the movies are fun :)
@@saravictoria972Harry Potter?
It makes me sleep well at night that I know how the Beatles would never have gotten big if it weren't for teenage girls hahah
This is so good! I can only imagine how long it must have taken you to make this video. I'm so grateful though! It's both funny and intelligent. I just recently got into Twilight, despite hearing the hate, and I couldn't help but love it. But I could never articulate why I thought it was good, and here you come with all of your top notch arguments - for example your explanation of why Edward’s not really creepy for being ”old” was such an aha moment. And the montage of plot ”noise” with action music where suddenly a cactus shows up made me lol. I love your TL;DR plotline of Bella: a bored girl in a beautiful/dangerous/complicated world where goodness depends on decisions and there is hearthbreak and so forth. It gave me chills. And when you summed up Edward plotline POV someone started cutting onions… hngg. :’) And YES, thank you, Bella’s trust is so important for the relationship - and love that you point out that Bella is the only person that Edward in turn ”just have to trust”. Thanks again
Ah, thank you so much!! I so, so appreciate it and hope you stick around!
I once spent winter vacation sweating over a graduate level Vampires in Literature class for fun. I could have just waited a few decades and watched your video instead. Damn! Well done you :)
Thanks so much for the kind words! That doesn't sound like a terrible thing to do with your winter break anyway ☺
I'll synthesize what's the T with Jacob: Taylor Lautner is SO sweet and adorable that his personality and energy kinda overshadows Jacob's toxicity. But Jacob is INDEED super toxic. But lso Edward has livedd longer and knows more, he is also an intelectual. Jacob has double hormones, teenager and werewolf and also happens to be more interested in physical activities than thinking
I loved this. I always loved Twilight books and movies. I felt a little confused about why I liked it so much, so I read some of the academic papers and thought they really missed the point, you’ve hit the nail on the head in many ways.
I wonder why now all entertainment has to be about the way we want things to be, from a feminist perspective, rather than the way they are. I fear there are a lot of little girls that are going to be disappointed that they can’t kick big guys asses. It’s hard to believe the female experience throughout history will no longer be valid and will have to be manipulated in the media to represent the future we strive for. Can’t art represent our experience?
From my perspective first love is scary, and for me boys were really scary and sort of “other”. Bigger, stronger, exciting, confusing, and the way they behaved was a mystery. They might as well have been vampires. That unavoidable attraction to some one you weren’t really sure about but wanted to be.
Although I’m from another generation, I identified with Bella because of her clumsiness and I was terrible at volleyball, and I have experienced the starting school in a new place as a teenager. I also had passionate crushes that I dreamed would last forever and awkward and confusing interactions with said crushes.
I really loved your conclusions, especially about Edward and Bella evolving in their difficult relationship and learning the hard lessons.
This is a brilliant analysis. Thank you so much for tackling the topic. I’m so glad I watched it.
Thank you so much, for watching and for the thoughtful comment! Yes, I'm bothered by the idea that men and boys get to have very masculine fantasies on film with no public criticism or question whatsoever, but anything coded female has to be scrutinized and torn apart if it's not some stock version of a "good influence" (basically that only "male" virtues are universally good). There's so much misogyny in criticism of women's media, easily as much as actually goes into media itself. It makes people of all genders avoid respecting "girly" emotions in themselves and others, which is extremely sad. I'm glad it seems like newer generations are starting to reject that.
This was a fabulous video essay and you've done what I thought impossible: you changed my mind about Twilight.
Now Fifty Shades on the other hand, that shit is toxic waste. It does everything Twilight is accused of doing while lacking the mitigating context. I used to lump the two together in my mind, but now I see that Fifty Shades is the product of someone who got the wrong impression from Twilight and thought that wrong impression was a good thing.
Hooray, thank you! I think people are way too quick to dismiss the fantasy elements of Twilight in their attempt to "solve the narrative." The fact of this being a vampire story and the inherent danger vampirism represents is what keeps it from being a story about excusing routine abuse like 50 Shades.
I haven’t finished the video yet but wanted to leave a comment before I forget. I agree that when you only look at Edward and Bella the age difference isn’t really creepy because he was frozen in time. However SM has many examples of normalizing older men being with younger women. One of the werewolves helping to raise a toddler and expecting to date her once she’s a teenager is creepy af, same with Renesme. She has another book called The Host. It’s a really entertaining post apocalyptic series but there are two different underage girls that get with adult men by the end of the book. There was no reason for their age difference.
I love Twilight - but I had never fully realized how these books and characters can reflect the danger of relationships - along with the beauty. I feel like my eyes have been opened in a way, even though I already liked Twilight! I have a different appreciation for it now, understanding more of its context and effect. Thank you so much for this amazing video essay! This is seriously the best video essay I’ve ever seen! I can’t wait to watch more of your videos! You are so clear and thought provoking! Thank you!
Thanks so much 😊
maybe this is just because I don't know how to read but your writing is phenomenal and this is one of the more genuinely enlightening videos or, anything I've ever seen. thank you.
Ending the video on Clare De Lune is an amazing touch
As someone who has been a defender and lover of Twilight for all of this time, I really appreciate your willingness to do a deep dive and explain things that I’ve been saying for years. Edward has always been one of my favorite fictional characters because he is flawed, for sure, but he is also very genuine. He never hides the fact that being a vampire, for him, absolutely sucks. He does everything he can to put Bella’s best interest in front but has obstacles to maneuver. Loved this video so much! ❤
I was obsessed with Twilight and Edward in particular in my early teen years but my environment and social media made me think that it was something stupid and ridiculous. Still, I reread or rewatch Twilight once in a few years and I still enjoy it! I think what I loved so much about it is the idea that you can be loved without being special or interesting (and that’s what men usually hate about Bella); that you can actually just cuddle and kiss in bed without having sex. I think that in this sense Twilight is actually better than lots of modern romances. And as you said, it perfectly captures the feeling of emptiness when your crush disappears from your life. For me personally it was the most devastating experience in my whole life, although I’ve been through other objectively more horrifying things like war and death of a friend. The reason why this is so painful is that as opposed to external factors which you cannot control the unrequited love feels like your failure: you think that they never loved you back because you did something wrong, because you did not prove to be worth their love and that’s exactly what Bella felt. And yes, love can really change your life dramatically in the positive way and feel like the best thing in your life and it does not make you less oh a feminist. The fact that you at least once felt unconditionally loved can make you confident for the rest of your life.
Fingernails and hair don't grow after death, it's just that the skin shrinks. Once dead, the body loses the ability to make more stuff like it would while alive.
Otherwise great video as always!
my god, i love this video. i've grown so tired of video essays, but finally- an intelligent, nuanced, thoughtful argument (not trying to 'you're not like other girls' you, just saying this isn't just a summary of the plot which is rare) and you've spoken about the vulnerability of love in a way that's very compelling and true. you're so underrated, how is this not viral?
The morbid zoo: douse a vid on twilight
Me who has never watched twilight: I guess I’m into twilight
this deserves more views! how was i not recommended this 2 years ago?? fantastic video!!
This is so good! I was well into Twilight in its early days, and me and my friends all waited for each of the books to come out so we could read them asap etc. I definitely got well into the whole "Edward is controlling and Twilight was awful" band wagon in the last little while, and this has been a really helpful fresh perspective! Thanks so much for taking the time to do this. I think I related to the whole "Edward was awful" stuff because I had had a few relationships that were indeed awful, and in watching videos about Edward being controlling it's easy enough for people to point out the problematic bits and ignore anything else. In seeing this, though, I am realising that Edward is very different to all the real life controlling and awful men that I knew. Edward did want what was in Bella's best interests, and that's not the case with actual awful boyfriends. He has a very different motivation, even if his demeanour is a bit creepy and some bits of his character aren't great. Maybe, now that I'm in a stable marriage, that allows me to look back and see lots of the aspects that you're pointing out. From my current vantage point I can see the reality of the "love has the potential to leave you hurt" idea and that whole notion that it's worth it anyways. And Bella wanting to commit to this guy, to the exclusion of other options, is what she wants. If feminism is to leave women with the choice to pursue marriage and babies, if that is what they actually want, then it needs to allow for media like Twilight not being awful hellscapes.
Wow. I'm just... I'm blown away. Twilight was the first book series I read as a young woman, the first romance novel I ever read and felt personally, deep in my soul. I feel that I got very lucky in that I did not have my experience belittled or poisoned by outside forces. My parents loved that I loved reading, they took me to all the movies and encouraged my enjoyment. Twilight meant, and still means, so much to me, and will forever be a part of my life story. As a writer, Twilight inspired me to capture my emotions-of infatuation, of lust, of pain, of fear, of joy-in as ardent a way as possible, because reading Meyer's own capturing of those emotions really made me feel seen. Twilight was the first book series that made me feel "I want to write something one day that impacts other people in the way this work has impacted me".
As I got older and became aware of the hate and criticism towards Twilight, I was always able to roll my eyes and hold my joy for myself. I feel very lucky for that. Other things I have loved, other pieces of art and media, have not been so unscathed by the outside influences of adulthood. But Twilight... Twilight has kept itself whole and lovely in my heart, and I feel like getting this video recommended to me by the UA-cam algorithm was a true blessing.
Despite never giving into the Twilight hate, I have felt discouraged by the absence of a well-written, well-executed defense. Then again, I have not gone out and sought one, for fear of only getting bombarded with the vitriol that I have so become privy to. But this video, this incredibly well done, eloquent, lovely lovely video, has given me so much joy and a sense of peace that I didn't know I needed.
Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for giving us this incredible video, for doing so much research, for speaking with such bravery, and I really do mean that. I wish I could show all the bad faith critics this video, because I really feel they could really benefit from your thorough and thoughtful perspective.
I also wish I could show this video to Meyer herself, because I feel like she would appreciate it.
I will definitely be watching this video again, and I'm intrigued by the possibility of a Jacob video in the same style!
(Edited because I forgot her last name had no "s" at the end)
This video was so good! I think you articulated a lot of what I love about twilight! Your points about vulnerability actually brought me some insight into my own personal relationships.
Aw, thank you!!
Holllllly mooooly this videooo. I was one of those hardcore twihards for years since it came out. And I never thought of the things you said in a very articulated way. Amazing video
Recommended to me 2 years later, The twilight hyperfixation is back🐺✊️
I wholeheartedly agree with you. I watched this entire film series with my Girlfriend, Back to back, A movie a night during the pandemic (sadly over long distance and we watched a lot of movies, film series that way and still do but I digress) both out of Legitimate curiosity, because neither of us had seen any of them, and with the full intent of Absolutely Clowning on them and we both ended up insanely shocked how entertained we were by them. The movies are DUMB, But the way the vampires and werewolves work is cool and it’s a legitimately fun ride with a flawed but sweet and kinda relatable (on some level) romance.
Although well before this we saw that crappy 2011 Red Ridinghood movie that was kinda a twilight ripoff, which already filled me with despair because Little Red Riding Hood is my favorite fairytale and I’m even working on writing my own twisted horror take on it. But after watching Twilight and Enjoying it… it actually hurt worse because “not only did they turn my favorite Fairytale into a Twilight ripoff, they turned it into a SHITTY Twilight ripoff!!!”
Hahaha it’s truly amazing how defensive you can end up being about twilight. We all become fangirls in the end 😂
@@themorbidzoo lol True. And it’s especially nuts cause I’m a Dude O.o
But I get what you mean 🤣
Thinking that Twilight is not a mirror of patriarchy and actively promotes it (breaking dawn is literally pro-life propaganda) just because the vampire society in the story is not patriarchal (as if Stephanie Meyer even intended it to not be or even thought about it) is honestly a pretty shallow analysis. Yes, vampire women aren’t subjugated based on their reproductive organs, but Bella is actively painted as better than the blonde, mean, vain vampire women (Rosalie and Tanya) due to her being able to get pregnant and form a traditional family. You can’t look at art and what it is promoting in a vacuum as if just because the society in it is accidentally progressive towards women, the author did not put any patriarchal message in it. And I say this as someone who was a Twilight fan as a kid and still loves it to death. It’s just that you get the basis of how to analyze text when it comes to the messages it is portraying really wrong. Art can not be analyzed if it is not compared to the time, place and cultural environment the artist was inserted in when they wrote it.
I think Edwards actions quickly become a lot more understandable when you remember that even though he had been alive over a hundred years and even though he’s very powerful, he’s still making decisions based on inexperience and lack of emotional maturity and wisdom when it comes to relationships. I guess the question is, does he learn through the series? I haven’t consumed it enough to judge
29:10 I disagree with this criticism. It's still weird for a college student to pursue (whether it be romantically or sexually) a high schooler. So, while it doesn't come with the same kind of potential for economic or social abuse, it's still a form of pedophilia
Also, it's pretty common for pedos to be people whose social development have been stunted, and thus find it easier to relate with children than their peers
The only real issue with twilight, from my perspective, is that Bella tried to kill herself, and at no point did she grow to realize her life had value outside of a relationship. I wanted to see her learn to live for herself as and maybe be an example for others struggling with thoughts of suicide.
I had no problem with Edward. He's a vampire. No need to judge him by human standards.
This essay made me believe in love again, in the moviegoer sense. What a tremendous talent; holy shit, I'm blessed with this perspective.
56:18 “From what I understand that’s the primary method by which we get more people” Great point delivered with great sass. Bravo!
Thank you 😁
I can’t believe this video is two years old. I just found it and I think it’s great! When I watched all the movies as an adult, I found myself really liking Edward as the saga progressed. He’s one of the people who really respected Bella’s wants and her agency, especially towards the end of the franchise. Thank you so much for the thoughtful breakdown!
Something that I didn't understand a handful of years ago, is when everyone started saying Edward was a gaslighter towards Bella, and that's unhealthy...
BUT FROM WHAT I CAN RECALL, HE'S LITERALLY A MYTHICAL CREATURE TRYING TO NOT BE FOUND OUT. even though it's a disaster
i will constantly engage with twilight related content because i love it and then immediately get smacked in the face with mormon related ptsd
Stephanie is not that kind of Mormon, there are many mormons who frown on the cult like extremist.
The undisputed best depiction of what being a Vampire is and means has emerged since the making of this video in THE GREAT AND MIGHTY KEVIN from Ogre Poppenhang's "Hunter: The Parenting". I say this with 100% sincerity.
i was abt to make a yt channel just to make a video like this lol. i get why ppl freak over meyer's intent but that doesn't mean that's what the audience took away. i can see as an adult bella's pregnancy was probably influenced by meyer's likely prolife beliefs but middle school me sat in those theatres thinking that i would've ripped that thing out of me lol. kids don't necessarily take away the "lesson" or ideas something is giving them. they also have the ability of personal interpretation
i had to watch this in two sessions cuz of work but you're comment about how everyone has the capacity to hurt a loved one rlly stuck with me. i got mental illnesses and trauma that make me want to lash out and push ppl away- things i have done in the past. part of being in a committed relationship now is recognizing that and moving past it. i always related to edward a lot, and i think part of that has to do with me being queer. the feeling of 'i'll never be enough no matter what i do' and having someone you love come and say that this part of you isn't just not broken but beautiful is amazing.
Lovely comment. Make the video anyway lol, our boy needs love. Yes, back in the day the academic fashion was to queercode Harry Potter (weird kids all coming together, literally emerging out of a closet). If you had told me back then that Harry Potter would soon be a symbol of anti-queerness and neoliberalism I would have laughed at you. Unlike Harry Potter, the stakes of Twilight are completely personal, all that matters is the relationship, and that allows us to think about the themes of it in terms less attached to society at large, which I like. I've also got my own mental illnesses and struggles with trauma, and more and more I consider it a matter of emotional hygiene to keep track of how those things distort my thinking and might lead me to hurt others or push them away unnecessarily. For some of us (most of us, I would guess), caring for another person is stressful and effortful, and that effort should be celebrated rather than seen as a pure symbol of abusive impulse. Like, has anyone who says that been in a relationship EVER?
I'm sorry but Jonathan Harker is NOT a boring husband! He gets kidnapped by Drac and tortured and STILL has the courage to take Drac down with his friends!!!! His and Mina's relationship is based on mutual respect for each other and their individual interests (Jon memorizes recipes during his trip to Transylvania that he thinks Mina will like). Mina is not attracted to Dracula like most adaptations think!!!! Instead, she fucking hates him for how he traumatized and nearly kills her husband!!!
I’m sorry but Edward was just too creepy… nothing like other vampires
This was a delightful listen. I’ve never been a fan of twilight, internalized misogyny some of the reason but the bigger reason being I hated the writing style, but my older sister was, so I was always at least tangentially in the fandom space. This take was super refreshing and I love this take on Edward. It’s a shame girl/women focused media never gets the nuanced and varied depictions of boy/male media.
wow this just belatedly popped up on my recommended and im so glad!!! i was truly captivated the entire way through. i love the way you explain things and the editing details you put in!!! thank you for this!!
i loved the twilight books as a preteen, then reread the series as an adult and realized… i STILL love it. it’s even better as an adult because i can appreciate the nuances of the characters and the rationale behind the more complex decisions they make. bella has so much agency and her decisions drive everything. edward is always considerate of her feelings and wellbeing (even during his problematic moments, not that it excuses them but he really is consistent!). i remember i hated new moon when i was younger bc there was so little edward. rereading as an adult, i was so surprised to realize that it so accurately captures the aftermath of a ghosting/traumatizing end of relationship. i ended up weeping throughout most of the book and got so anxious i had to take breaks from reading it bc it was resonating with me so much lol, so wild! i feel like i have never read anything that portrayed that experience so accurately. dang i really love these books!!!
all that said, i actually can’t bear watching the movies lol! i never understood why, they just always made me uncomfy. your summary of robert pattinsons mindset/struggle to realize his vision for edward, and the issue of portraying such an internal conflict on screen, really helped me understand why they don’t work for me. maybe one day we will get a more thoughtfully designed twilight film series !!
really thank you again for this deep dive!!!
Thank you so much!! Really what gets me about the Twilight hate is this implication that boys and men get to have media that encourages them to grapple with and fantasize about difficult life events, but apparently women and girls can't understand the difference between a story and reality and need to be protected from it. Eyeroll.
You didn't need to hold the shot of the interview at 35:00. You truly didn't. I dropped a hot pan and burned myself trying to stop the video due to the sheer cringe radioactivity of the clip
I came to the twilight phenomena really really late - like a few months ago at the age of 43. I was too old when it originally came out and then heard everyone saying how crap it was. So when it came time for my teen girls to have an interest in it I told them to stay clear cos it was crap. They asked me if id read it and I had to admit that I hadn’t - so I found a free version online and read it in about 2 days! Aaaaaaand I was hooked.
So, for me, it was like that experience at the end of ratatouille where the food critique gets pulled back into a memory of his childhood and it brings something back alive you never noticed was dead. It brought me back to when I met my husband at age 21. Twilight for me was like experiencing what it was like to fall in love for the first time with ‘the one’! (We are still happily married 20 years!) and so started by obsession with twilight. It also helps us see that not one person is perfect - this new generation of young people are statistically the loneliest and the ones having the least amount of sex! I wonder if it’s cos they believe that others should be perfect like them, without noticing their own imperfections, or maybe expecting people to put u with them. 🤷♀️ Edward was not perfect, Bella was not perfect, but together they worked on that - and that is actually how you build a long lasting and happy marriage - I can guarantee you that’s the only way to do it.
After that I had to read the next one - where I weeped the whole way through. Again, this threw me back to what it was like to have a break up with the one. It was exactly like what happened with my hubby - he needed some time to get his shit together (we both came from very troubled backgrounds and he wanted to be more ‘whole’ for me) literally broke my heart. And to be honest I don’t remember much other than the pain of longing and thinking I’d never get passed it. (Interesting side note, Carter Burwell who wrote Bella’s lullaby, wrote that piece after he had his heart broken by the love of his life, recorded it and put it away as a kind of catharsis - they later married and are still married!) and I knew I would do absolutely anything for him if his sister rang me up and asked me!
So on to the 3rd one I went - and again, a perfect example of what happens when you form a relationship with someone that you need to survive, but then jealousy and bitterness sets in. I thought the book handled Edward better in this than the films! And let’s be honest, how many of us would manage to cope with a partner that loved another person, even though it was differently, and needed them because of what we had done to them?! I couldn’t even have my hubby’s ex girlfriend at my wedding! 😂
Anyway. Suffice to say I am now a big fan and am encouraging my girls to read the actual books before watching the films
Dude, I genuinely felt awful for Rob when you played the interview clips…if you told me he was drunk during some of them, I would completely believe you 🥺
I honestly don't care about Twilight and have never done so but I clicked on this because I loved the non-ironic passionate attitude you gave off in the title, and I just fucking love how it ended up as a REALISTIC and HUMAN perspective on storytelling, relationships, love... we REALLY needed this, it's so refreshing to see media analysis by someone who isn't reactionary and who is media literate and knows how to ACTUALLY read stories and not just ignore the purpose of the story, and characters and plots... down with one dimensional media analysis that treats characters and stories as if they are real and should thus be judged and interpreted literally with real world standards. Every choice in writing, even the ones made subconsciously or made by non-action, is meaningful and is meant to communicate ideas and themes. You get it! I love this shit! Thank you for sharing your perspective! Also FLAMING LIPS SWEEP.
Thank you! 😊
I hated Twilight as a teenager because a saw that girls tend to like it so it must've been vapid and stupid, or so I thought... I used to be a vapid and stupid teenager.
It's okay. We all were vapid and stupid teenagers
I love this analysis, but still can't forgive SM for making the love interest intrigued by the fact that he can't read the main character's mind while also making the story IN FIRST PERSON. Like, we know how ordinary Bella is. So the ending where she finally lets him read her thoughts is kind of horrific in a way. Like, Edward got duped! He ended up with one of the normies he hated in school! And if he's forever 17, then he's always going to be like that. The ending is like the ending of a Tales from the Crypt episode. 😬
yeah, you had me until this moment 29:08. Red flag No.1 in your video
1:02:42 Red flag No.2 , Bella didn't even know Edward at that point, she had only seen him a few times without actual conversations with him. How on earth would you suggest that trusting someone you're not even in a relationship with is a good idea?
You see, right now I'm at 1:04:31, and I'm thinking to myself for most of this video you did not defend Edward. You talked about so many different topics that at some point got away from the main topic, unfortunately and for the parts that you very accurately "ardently" defended him, you pretty much brought up only the good moments of Edward and by that I mean Edward has loads of moments that he IS in fact controlling and does not give Bella the freedom of choice. He rather makes decisions for her than allowing her to make them and you did not mention those moments very much. You mostly swept them under the rug by claiming that he was being loving and romantic and protective. I'm rather dissappointed at almost the end of this video essay. You somewhat managed to create sth out of Edward Cullen that was not him.
I might get back to this video to add some points here and there later. I'm just utterly surprised by how "ardently" you were willing to portray Edward's redflags as beautiful thoughtful traits. How you managed to do that in your own head is beyond me.
I also sense a lack of experience (I'm not sure about this. It's merely a speculation) in abusive relationships. Were you more familiar with the dynamics of a toxic person and a toxic relationship you wouldn't be so "ardently" defending Edward's shady behaviours (and I'm not just talking about the time he was trying to hide his vampirism. A lot of times in his relationship with Bella he fails to communicate with her what needs to be communicated. He keeps so many things from her and again that's a sign of an unhealthy relationship not a healthy one.)
Your whole analysis was way too romanticized.
1:07:08 Redflag No.3 ! Codependancy is not the same as caring! Bad advice!
Just... a late thought on that last 'red flag' if I may? Codependency is a neutral term. Let me give you a very small scale every day example. I depend on my fiancée to cook for me, she depends on me to clean the house. I hate cooking and suck at it but she loves it and is really creative and good at it, meanwhile she hates to vacuum/dust/mop and I actually really enjoy doing those things and am more efficient at them too. I also drive us everywhere because only I have a license, but she makes snacks for our roadtrips and is a very good copilot/navigator. In a long term relationship there will be mundane routine stuff like that that you can just agree that you will do for each other (and for the both of your enjoyment/health/safety) because you love each other, and you agree that you can, in fact, _depend_ on each other and the promise that things discussed will be completed. Looking at our boomer parents (literally, all four of them were born in the 50s) and older brothers/sisters and their spouses, and what they have continually done for each other over their decades of marriage, codependency is just something that forms inevitably between two people who decide to tie their lives together. That's literally why you tie your lives together with someone. If you can lean on each other and share chores, emotional labor, fears and dreams and goals, _because_ you care for that person AND they care for you, is a wonderful thing in life and I don't think that word is as dirty as you here presented it to be.
@@Nemamka Hey there, I appreciate your comment. Last night I posted a reply to your post but it didn't upload. So here I am again.
I understand your point of view and it makes sense but the context is important here.
Your definition of codependency and context is very important in deciding if the codependency healthy or not. Now, I don't exactly remember the point in the video I was referring to, but from what I remember, Neither the relationship in twilight was healthy nor the codependency between Bella and Edward.
If I want to make a better argument, I will need to watch the video again. If another comment comes up and can inspire me or incite me tp watch it again, I might do that and explain my point of view further.
This is great, looking forward to seeing more of your thoughts if you're planning to add more.
I got thoughts about it myself but basically it boils down to this relationship factually having toxic elements. It's probably not the worst out there, but not all of it can and should be explained away just like what this video did. That why we have problems about it.
This is such a genuinely good video, well written, researched, and produced. I hope you keep making content like this!
Thank yooou ☺
I resigned to the fact years ago that Twilight was the reason I learned about feminism. No joke. I read the first book, kind of liked it but was triggered by it. Went looking online to understand why, found a hate Twilight site, wasted my time indulging my internalized misogyny before stumbling across some feminist adjacent blog or site (I couldn't tell you which one, just something someone probably wrote about why Twilight Bad).
I was skeptical of this video ever since I found your channel, but the work day is long & I have time XD In other words, I come in good faith, given how much I've resonated with your other videos. The points you bring up are spot on. I still feel a hesitation in even recommending these books to young girls but why would I not bat an eye about Beauty & the Beast? Damn >.> So much to reflect on 🌸
Also I feel bad for Robert Pattinson, I'm understanding more of why he has those types of interviews. It's shitty he has to sit through them but his responses are kind of based lol
Genuinely I think these kinds of super blockbusters that generate a lot of conversation are valuable art partly _because_ of how they expose people to counterarguments about issues they might not have considered otherwise. I don't cotton to the idea that we should defend a character just because they make us feel nice because movie characters are, like, not real lol. The purpose they serve is as a stand-in for actual real people to consider different points of view and possibilities for themselves and society. Glad you liked it :D
And yeah, Rob is awesome haha, he makes those garbage press circuit interviews actually fun for once
I really never saw the problem with Twilight. I don't think it's child's book, but women of all ages enjoy the series.
this has to be in my top 10 video essays i enjoyed this sm
Mostly what bothers me now about the Twilight franchise is that they are recycling the old material, instead of continuing the wish fulfilment just as it was getting good. Bella is no longer suicidally depressed, she has superpowers and a husband, and a weird ugly baby that hopefully she'll keep away from Jacob. Have her go to trade school, become a mechanic, send she and Edward around the world solving mysteries. I hate romances that consider marriage the stopping point instead of just having the characters *do shit* together as a team. You can have interpersonal tension without needing them to bicker constantly.
On the racism bit, there's a video by Ali Nahdee discussing the story's depiction of native characters that I found really informative
As a teenager and young adult I, too, hated twilight with all my heart. That was until two years ago, when the person I then considered the love of my life left me. The scene in New Moon where Bella just sits in a chair, staring out of the window for months and crying and screaming every night was and is to this day one of the only film scenes about breakups that really made me feel seen and understood, because that's exactly what I did. I still get goosebumps watching that scene today and I appreciate the message behind it that yes, breakups can be traumatic, they can cause depression and it doesn't make you weird or weak to have had an experience like this.
I won’t tolerate any Michael Sheen slander in this house, he was the only good thing about these movies and correctly recognised them as the campy Desasters they are. 💀💀💀
I loved the first few books growing up, but by the time the movies rolled around I was just a little too old and ✨edgy✨ to actually give them the time of day. The last book was a definite hate read from me as well, it was simultaneously so boring and asinine that I think I actually threw it against a wall at some point in exasperation. So imagine my delight when I was made to marathon these movies with a friend years later, absolutely dreading the final two in particular and there he is: Michael Sheen. Being delightful. Say what you will about his acting choices, but I was entertained all the way through.
one thing that's stuck out to me about the "oh edward is so creepy" discourse - he's been trapped in the mind and body of a 17-year-old from the 1910s for nearly 100 years by the time he meets bella. he's had to play the role of being 17 too, by repeatedly going to high school and graduating over and over again to keep up the cullens' illusion of being a Normal Human Family. between him being born in *1901* and him being stuck with the brain/body of a teenage boy for nearly a century, that's gotta do a number on your mental health, not even mentioning that he might have been even MORE of a "problematic" person by modern standards before having to spend a century watching human social standards run extremely far past what he was raised to believe the world was like. edward probably isn't intentionally behaving in ways that modern humans find as "creepy", he's probably very socially and romantically inept due to being over 100 years old and still having the emotional capability of a teenage boy. he was raised in an era where women were literally considered the legal property of their husbands and it was perfectly legal to beat or assault them, he probably thinks watching bella sleep through her window is perfectly harmless and wouldn't weird anyone out.
one thing i'd like to point out though, cause i've literally written academic papers about bram stoker's dracula novel - bram stoker was irish, not british, and was VERY involved in the home rule movement during his life. a lot of the "dracula is about immigrants" readings come from british and american literary critics, but some irish literary critics argue that dracula and his real estate development being a threat is a metaphor for british imperialism against ireland. around the time dracula was published, using vampires to depict the british crown or the english more generally as a threatening figure against some symbolic audience insert character for the irish people (most of the ones i've seen used the mythological figure of eire) was actually something that you could see as a regular theme in some pro-home rule publications as political cartoons. it's a more recent theory, but imo it's worth investigating as much as the "dracula is trash literature for racist, paranoid british people who are sexist idiots" reading.
one final thing, if i could find a way to wipe aro's laugh from my brain so it doesn't play on loop like one of your friends who likes to abuse the soundboard on discord calls keeps slamming the aro laugh button every time i watch something with michael sheen in it. i just want to consume good omens in peace from my own rotted brain.
just here to say i throuroughly enjoyed your comment from start to finish. 10/10 would read it again
Oh that’s super interesting, I hadn’t heard that interpretation of Dracula. If you can name any people/their articles off the top of your head I’d love to see their argument (not that the interpretation is invalidated by the historical argument, I’m just curious, it’s an interesting way to read it anyway)
@@themorbidzoo i tried looking for the stuff i used as a source in my paper, but it appears most of it isn't easily accessible online, but by googling "dracula novel irish interpretation" you can easily find some pretty good writings on the topic. i know the specific book i used as a hard-copy source when doing academic research on the novel was mainly focused on bram stoker's sexuality and his friendship with oscar wilde (fun fact, oscar wilde was actually bisexual and people only assume he's gay in the modern era because he got arrested for having adult funtimes with other men. he actually was engaged to the woman who would later marry bram stoker and it caused IMMENSE personal drama because oscar wasn't over his ex girlfriend, iirc the book included a letter from him to bram stoker's wife that basically boiled down to "please send me back that expensive gift i sent you last christmas, you broke my heart and i fear i may never love again" because he was overly theatrical like that lmao), and i can't remember the title for the life of me, but it was a HEFTY book and had a section that discussed the potential reading of dracula as a commentary on british imperialism, and a few political cartoons contemporary to stoker's career that featured england-as-a-vampire imagery.
Sometimes I just want to read or watch fun melodrama because I'll either relate or laugh. If it's what I need in the moment then who cares? The side characters are delightful to read about, Meyer developed individual backstories for each character that inform who they currently are in the narrative in an immensely satisfying way, her ideas on vampires can be weird but also kinda cool because they are at least original, it's an easy read, and the fandom built around the franchise has become so much more than what it was. The fandom is actually my favorite part. Most people are just okay with being goofy and imagining these characters being goofy too. It's not all that serious and sometimes that is all I want, an escape.