Tempo Reality Check - Czerny, Sonata Opus 268 - Martin Jones
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- Опубліковано 2 лип 2024
- Czerny is known through his etudes, but he composed much more and honestly, much that deserves more attention than his work gets today. In this video we focus on his sonata Opus 268, a virtuosic piece played beautifully by Martin Jones, who recorded the Czerny sonatas on CD. Czerny gave Metronome Marks to his work. How does Jones deal with those?
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0:00 Czerny composed a lot!
4:29 Movement 1
8:31 Movement 2
13:26 Movement 3
14:14 Movement 4
18:14 Why do we check these tempi?
When I was a toddler, my older sister learned to play the piano with the nuns. I still remember exactly the tempi of the pieces (including Czerny) because I heard them for hours, days, months and years while playing with my Dinky-Toys. As a little boy I mimicked some of the passages by feel, and doing so I gradually learned to read music on my own. My piano repair will be completed soon, so I'm already preparing taking it up again. When I found 'Die Schule der Geläufigkeit' on UA-cam yesterday, I was only able to listen to a few of those speed records. Almost everything was almost twice as fast as I remembered. The nuns had more common sense than our current virtuosos.
“SPOCK: I find your argument strewn with gaping defects in logic.” You assume that nuns and their pupils, would notate their Maezel Metronome indications in Single Beat interpretation predicated that the religious teachers followed the practice. Poor children and religious that took vows of poverty do not always have access to metronomes. Hanon was a third order Franciscan and also involved in the education of poor children. And what is he best known for?
The Virtuoso, Pianist (Le Pianiste virtuose) a compilation of sixty exercises meant to train the pianist in speed, precision, agility, and strength of all of the fingers and flexibility in the wrists. First published in Boulogne, in 1873, The Virtuoso Pianist is Hanon's most well-known work, and is still widely used by piano instructors and pupils. To my knowledge, none of Hanon’s works I have access to do not contain metronome marks except The Virtuoso Pianist. I do not have access to his salon pieces or his other music courses, or his Etudes for the Organ in his Sacred Music.
@@dorette-hi4jSpock, “I find your argument strewn with gaping defects in logic.” You assume that nuns and their pupils, would notate their Maezel Metronome indications in Single Beat interpretation predicated that all religious teachers followed the practice. Poor children and religious that took vows of poverty do not access to metronomes except possibly music Teachers.
Hanon was a third order Franciscan and also involved in the education of poor children. And what is he best known for?
The Virtuoso, Pianist (Le Pianiste virtuose) a compilation of sixty exercises meant to train the pianist in speed, precision, agility, and strength of all of the fingers and flexibility in the wrists. First published in Boulogne, in 1873, The Virtuoso Pianist is Hanon's most well-known work, and is still widely used by piano instructors and pupils. To my knowledge, none of Hanon’s works I have access to do not contain metronome marks except The Virtuoso Pianist. I do not have access to his salon pieces or his other music courses, or his Etudes for the Organ in his Sacred Music.
However is Hanon Whole Beat or Single Beat?
@@dorette-hi4j The Third Order of Saint Francis is a third order in the Franciscan tradition of Christianity, founded by the medieval Italian Catholic friar Francis of Assisi. Francis founded the Third Order in 1221, to accommodate men and women (yes there are Nuns) who, being married, were ineligible to join the Franciscan First or Second Orders, respectively. Third order do not live in Friaries. They are religious, and Anglican and Lutheran Franciscans including the Third order, exist.
The nuns comment is rather a “sexist “ excuse. Another Third Order Franciscan was Franz Liszt as of 02/1857 midway in his life. Liszt spoke at length to Widor as to how J S Bach was originally performed, how the improvements in the pianofortes allowed a faster tempo, and how the current virtuosos play as charlatans (very fast)…and yet there’s questions about Liszt’s MM indications.
Early Metronome Markings and the “A Tempo Project” - Journal of the American Liszt Society - Volume 70-71 2019-2020
Posted on April 17, 2021 by Diane Kolin
Abstract:
The topic of early metronome markings has always been a long-standing puzzle for musicians and scholars. Conductors and performers face the difficult task of interpreting tempi indications of works of the nineteenth century, with metronome markings that occasionally seem incorrect according to our modern standards. The “A Tempo Project,” a video project by Swiss pianist, composer, and organist Bernhard Ruchti, includes useful analyses of scores and musicological sources such as historical performance reviews, correspondence, original manuscript notations, and recordings of the studied works. Ruchti illustrates how different readings of tempi indications have impacted historical performance and attempts to explain the wide range of metronome marking interpretations. Taken as a whole, Ruchti’s work helps shed light on the complicated and ever-timely problem of historical metronome markings.
Publication:
Journal of the American Liszt Society
Volume 70-71 2019-2020 - April 2021
Link to the article on ResearchGate:
www.researchgate.net/publication/350954569_Early_Metronome_Markings_and_the_A_Tempo_Project_-Journal_of_the_American_Liszt_Society-_Volume_70-71_2019-2020
Not only Wim Winters is raising questions of incongruity about MM marks, 19th Century accounts of performances speeding up while Conservatories feeble excuse that players became slower, however I haven’t yet read that anyone wrote that the American Liszt Society is a spreader of “Conspiracy Theories”… as some have published online.
@@dorette-hi4j You misunderstand Hanon’s 4 books, the exercises are to supplement scales, to develop facilities in the fingers not to supplant other exercises, and frankly, rapid scales and arpeggios do not produce the independence and facility of the 5th finger in both hands. Speed is not required for said purpose and in fact to develop strength slower tempi is Ideal. The only limitation or criticism of Hanon is the work’s exercises weren’t developed into and aren’t in all keys in both major and minor modes. There’s nothing stopping one from doing, as the Gleason Organ method on its different manual only exercises mentioned by college organ teacher commented, who was still teaching in his advanced age, he was a student of Widor. Widor was a student of Lemmings who traces his teachers back to J S Bach, but similar to Charlemagne that inheritance/genetics is greatly diluted and diminished by time. Griepenkerl still taught on clavichords for organ instruction and the hand Technique taught by Forkel to the former who was taught by W F Bach…I have used this same technique since my teen age tears for everything from piano, organ, and harpsichord. It’s faster than the flat elongated finger method taught, but nothing reaches the 12 single repeated notes plus and faster requirements in one hand found in Czerny’s exercises that every single beat adherent claims is possible and no one to date has yet to play on the concert stage for that matter. Even the two hand contest do not exceed 8.5 notes per second by pianists not taught by nuns.
@@dorette-hi4j Less force, smaller dip, however, a Steinway plays faster than either the single escapement instruments of Vienna, let alone the double escapement of Erard in France or the single escapement of Pleyel. The earlier 19th century Pianofortes weren't up to speed, (Liszt mentions this to Widor in his consertation with Widor in 1878 in references to improvements in the mechanism two decades after Czerny's death) repeat consectutive repeated notes on a single key required in his works at single beat interpretation.
The Metronome Marks of Beethoven which Czerny likewise agrees with, for the Hammerklavier Sonata were question by Hans von Buelow in 1875, one can presume Hans von Buelow lists the MM indications (and assumes in single beat) in HvB's edition on the Hammer Klavier in which Beethoven (1819), Dunst, 1835, and Czerny in 1838 (Opus 500) both have half note=138...Ries-Clementi have 1/4=138 (circa 1830s) and Moscheles. Moscheles does not always contradict the MM, but is more frequently slower in 1/4=X
And I am not parrotting Wim on the mechanism, I've played antique Pleyels (circa 1977) when container cargo ships filled with all manner of antique fourniture was shipped on mass to the USA after stripping these treasures from Europe, an Erard, and over dozens of square, upright pianos, plus a few early 1900 grands from the latter part of the 19th and early 20th century.
That being said, I am no fan of the Steinway action (deep as in halfway to China), keyfall weight (too damn heavy for 18th century work), and playing said is akin to a dump truck loaded with brickes, vs. a 1970's Yamaha grand piano by comparison.
A historical model harpsichord by comparison is a nimble sports car; I preferred to play Mozart on the harpsichord, a breeze by comparison, yes even for the Sonata Facile (easy) vs any modern piano. This from my past in my student days (Jr. High School through to college) when I practiced six hours a day after school, and summer vacation 8+ hours a day.
My parents worried about me. I practiced (and also read at sight) so much that the replaced plastic (for Ivory, before Cites) keys on the 1902 Upright grand piano (which I preferred) that I wore visible depressions into the keys.
However, quicker that a mid to late 20th century (and onward) the action isn't by any means nimble, but it is quicker than 19th century pianofortes, and the 18th C. fortepianos prior are lighter action, but in single note repitition not so quick as than their 19th descendants, or as quick as today's pianos for repeated individual notes, as most individuals assume otherwise.
Thanks again Wim! Like you said in the past, “ The music is for us guys!” Thank you for opening so many things up for us serious amateurs . 🙂🙏🏼⭐❤🌺🌺🌼
@@dorette-hi4j thank you, I appreciate your comment. I am primarily a hymn player and singer, but I do so enjoy looking at all kinds of music and it helps me to keep growing.
I must say I've been studying Czerny's scores a lot over the last 2 years, I've been hundreds and hundreds of them, and I genuinely and unironically think there is a very very strong to be made that Czerny is one of the greatest musicians who has ever lived.
His sheer amount of output is ridiculously high, his understand of music is clearly massive as he can write music that follows on from Mozart and Beethoven's styles very convincingly, whilst also being able to write like Chopin and the like when he wants to plus laying the ground work for people like Liszt, as well as being an amazing teacher, and he so obviously must have been a tremendous pianist. I mean until you get into the 1840s and 1850s with a much more "modern" newer school of piano playing, I'd be willing to bet that if you went back in time to say 1820, Czerny would be as good as anyone else at the time.
His music ( not only the etudes) definitely deserves so much more attention.
I agree completely. I am an organist, and his Preludes and Fugues for organ are part of my standard repertoire; and his "Great" Prelude and Fugue in A minor is easily capable of standing alongside the organ works of Buxtehude, Bach, Mendelssohn, and Brahms. It's really fantastic music that deserves wider recognition. And, like you, I probably never would have considered purchasing a book of music by Czerny if it wasn't for this channel.
The bulk of his compositions are in manuscript form which exceeds the published works and exercises in quantity by a country male. A darn shame as those manuscript works I have heard when performed are very well crafted. UA-cam isn't the cornucopia that it is today.
You couldn't find Czerny's Preludes and Fugues, and the Czerny Organ works I wasn't even aware of, my two organ teachers never referred to them, as no music store carried any. In the pre-internet days, I went to antique and second hand book stores looking for scores, instead of the usual stocked items found in piano and organ sections in music stores. When a client of mine went to the Mayo Clinic (he employed me as a medical researcher for his "orphan disease"), upon hearing that I had studied the piano, requested that I play for him (there were many pianos at the Mayo), I went through interconnected basements in 2004 (it was the middle of winter) upon finally reaching the music store, I requested some works, which the clerk asked which so he could print off the internet. I settled on Bach's Well Tempered Clavier Pt 1 Alfred Edition and the Kirkpatrick Scarlatti 60 Sonatas part 2, of the few books which were in stock. They did have Czerny's Op. 299, and nothing else by the composer or any other composer in their meager inventory.
"Why is that important? It's up to you to decide."
Music scores are not works of art, they are instructions to create works of art. It's important to me that those instructions are followed through.
I am grateful for you forcing me to look into so many mid-19th century composers I'd never have taken the time to look into. Czerny was a far better composer than I'd ever had considered him to be on the basis of his etudes. And he's only one of many, some of whom I'd never encountered before. I wish I were younger and could have worked on this piece to perform it, though when I was younger I'd have been ignorant of the correct tempo.
Thankyou Wim. I accept WBMP, it is a shame that Tempi crept up (along with pitch) as a mark of virtuosity. It is like many things in this world today held up as a virtue to aspire to playing 30%-50% faster than WBMP assuming the composer wanted a rushed performance. It is a binary option- listen to a MIDI sequence at single beat and then halve the tempo- and decide which is _musical_ or even possible to play!). The music speaks for itself. Plugging away learning a Bach prelude or fugue is NEVER sonically boring - great music is still great slowed down- the modern equivalent is the cRAP music (silent C) with extremely banal lyrics but performed at machine gun speed the brain does not have time to process this and has an aural illusion of virtuosity-. When slowed down the cRAP music is unmasked as melodically simple/boring and the lyrics being nonsense prosody. And in the modern world a slick video is what is being sold- the musicality being a secondary consideration.
08:09 -- I had to laugh! This sped up version is comical. Thanks for unexpected joy!
The points you make about tempo are interesting, and I believe it’s often best to play 19th-century music at tempi slower than what we usually hear today, but still faster than the metronome marks read in whole beat.
But I completely disagree with the Czerny quote at 2:46. Instead of one perfect tempo that the composer prescribes, I would say there is one perfect tempo for each player.
Each musician has their own inner sense of timing, and you should follow this instinct rather than following metronome numbers or the playing of others. It can often be found not by playing the piece, but by singing it or imagining it.
@@dorette-hi4j What you are saying really displays your lack of knowledge of the subject matter by imposing your personal bias (mostly present-day standards) that playing in strict, correct time equals a tasteless performance. If you actually carefully read Czerny’s written works and take into account the whole picture, the “exact time indicated by the author” correlates with the metronome, and this point is repeated again and again, not only in Czerny’s writings, but also in Hummel’s. For example, in Czerny’s letters to a young lady, which serves as a supplement to his Pianoforte-Schule, he clearly states that, “Towards effecting the last object [executing a piece in the time indicated by the author], Maelzel’s metronome will afford you very great assistance in most modern compositions”. Note how he says “modern compositions”, that is because he is referring to compositions during the time period in which the metronome was available and, thus, would have metronome marks.
Later, Czerny says, “A piece which is played too fast or too slow loses all its effect and becomes quite disfigured.” Immediately after that sentence, he says, “Where the time is not marked according to Maelzel’s metronome, you must look to the Italian words…”
Therefore, it is indisputable that the “exact time prescribed by the composer” refers to following the metronome indication whenever there is one, no matter what. Afterall, metronome marks are exact tempo indications that are meant to be followed; that’s the intention of the machine.
You would have to speed up Jones 51% to rech 80
53*1,51=80
So if your example at the end is soed uo 35% (as you mentioned) whole beat is even faster and more unplayable.
Love your work! Keep it up. I think it’s amazing
This piece, Czerny’s op 268, is one of the few pieces that probably 95% of pianists would struggle to play even in whole beat, unless you think that music is just playing the correct notes and rhythms. The 4th movement, in particular, is on a whole another level. I personally copied the whole piece down in Musescore because it’s such a difficult piece. Through Musescore playback system, it sounds very convincing in whole beat, and in single beat, it sounds totally ridiculous.
I copied other pieces by Czerny as well, especially his fugues for piano, and again, single beat sounds completely absurd and whole beat makes sense. In whole beat, you will be surprised with how “Bachian” Czerny’s fugues sound.
Note: Computers, such as Musescore playback system, are great at following instructions, so you can hear a piece exactly what is written in the score without any compromises.
@@dorette-hi4j okay, my comment was about telling my experience, and not having an argument…
You can disagree with my experience, that is fine. Regardless, I doubt you had any experience with what single beat Czerny would sound like without any compromises to his scores. Again, that’s okay because I don’t expect everyone to have that experience.
Note: for the most part, you would need a computer to experience single beat tempi, especially for Czerny.
@@ppopoisaname2860 The old MusicTyme software gave on that option. Note by note with a mouse is a chore. I've read of score readers thatn convert notes on scores into midi files. These midifiles can then played in single beat or whole beat and determine which is absurd/comical/unmusical to the ear in addition to being beyondimpossible. I recommend on another post of using a reproducing piano such as Duo Art or Welte Mignon and reproduction on a Vorsetzer. If played on an antique or modern reproduction of an antique piano it would once and for all settle the argument of whether the actions of the Pianofortes of the first half of the 19th century could play the works in question in single beat speed or if the mechanism couldn't keep pace. Czerny, Chopin, et al were practical musicians/composers/teachers and wouldn't write impossible works unplayable on the pianofortes of their day. Then again some of Chopin's works with the choir master left hand metronomically keep the beat and the copius amount of little black notes freed from the beat in the right hand similar to an opera soprano is a great deal of work (even with a recorded tract of the left hand, to which one only plays with the right).
Congratulations and blessings for your family,
Tempoooo-!!! Ha! ...My perennial music teacher {who moved to Melbourne, ...hummm, she couldn't get farther away from me [re: my playing] }. My Tempo is dictated by the 'feeling of the notes', esp. JS Bach.
Artistically speaking a nice sentiment, performance practice of the 18th century generally had pieces without Italian Tempo terms in Germany, just Time Signatures, the key (major or minor modes were generally slower) and the observation of the smallest predominant note values (the smaller the note value the slower the work). If one has access to Urtext (free of an editors instructional additions (fingering, Tempi indications not found in the original) such as J S Bach's Preludes and Fugues based on the Tempo Ordinario system. For works based on dances (The Suite, Allemandes, Courants, Correnti (not the sames as the Courant) Sarabande, Menuett, Gigue, etc.) you'd be surprised at the 18th Century definitions, compared to the blistering speeds most pianists take these works. Some pianist make excuses "The works are just stylized...", which contradicts Germany speaking lands obsession with everything French, from food, to fashion, architecture to instruments, from ornaments to uniquely French methods such as notes inequales (including how the dot on a not is extended and the shorter note is played much shorter and how what appears to be two notes against triplet rhythm is played synchronization)...Czerny also mentioned the character of the piece which changes the feeling, equally important. Two many pianists play too "damn fast" (physics term not profanity), which changes a sonically equivalent water color or an oil painting into Flourescent Poster Paint on a Black Velvet Canvas. Under a Black Lite the effect can be stunning or tacky, the true intent of the composer isn't served and the audience is cheated. Music and Dance are the artforms that have to be recreated and then become still and silent, only to be reborn at the next performance. Too often what transpires is a charicature rather than a truthful statement of the composer.
alberto czerny sonatas when? 😅
Yes, when? 😃
I would pay good money to hear that! Especially no. 3
Czerny’s office sounds like proto-AI. And he mass-produced music!
He mass produced lessons, but also wrote a great deal of "serious" music in manuscript form after he gave up teaching. I doubt Czerny's Preludes and Fugues were mass produced.
@@Renshen1957 Got it! The assembly-line approach to creativity is interesting.
And it’s not even almost nobody, it’s nobody practically, virtually, factually, who wants to live in a single beat world. Because if someone would like, or would want to, such a person would exige immediate return to “older instruments on which somehow it is easier to play”, they would tirelessly battle with biology, aesthetics, history, physical limitations, or would even try to make it appear as if the performers and composers play and intended single beat speeds. Any lesser attempt than that is mediocre Doesn’t achieve the minimum to honor the composers,