I've been in the electrical trade almost 40 years and never knew SQD breakers were dual rated. I'm looking at one now rated #14-#8 with one conductor and #14-#10 with two conductors.
I've seen my share of double tapped breakers. Either because it was an older home and they needed to add one more circuit and the panel was full and didn't want to spend a bunch of money for a larger panel or a subpanel, or there was a issue with a breaker that caused arcing and damage to part of the bus making that slot unusable and they move that circuit onto another breaker instead of replacing the panel.
Just curious, while I know it looks sloppy, would the NEC allow for two circuits/wires to simply be joined to a third feeder that’s connected to the breaker, all inside the panel? Wire nut pointing up to assure it doesn’t collect dust of course.
On many occasions I have seen inspector call out double tapped breakers claiming the wiring is not protected due to the double tap. They had no clue about over current protection. A double tap actually has the potential of being more protective of wiring.
Wow, nice info here. When I bought a house a few years before, the panel was full of melted double taps, and it didn't pass inspection. Even though everything worked, the seller had to have it all changed. I didn't know double taps were ever up to code. I guess it just depends on using the right breaker
I use a double breaker in one slot. The invention of the single space 2 breaker is awesome. You can literally double the number of breakers in a small panel
@@starshorts6187Ah yes always the one guy like you in the comments who is the debbie downer and always has to have Negative Feedback about anything you can find.
@@trxtech3010 the distinction he is eluding to is not inconsequential. to @ocsrc's credit he does say "small" panels can be doubled but for clarity by small he means no larger than 24 circuit as doubling a 32 or 42 circuit is not allowed and failure to observe this code requirement generates a standing liability for the installer for the life time of the install and it is an actual life safety code section (as opposed the engineering code sections) 42 handles is considered the max number of handles a fire guy can be expected to have to shut off in a fire PERIOD and the inspectors actually look for this violation.
Of course the over quarter million words in the NEC has hundreds of exceptions to a lot of articles. If you ate feeding say an air compressor or air conditioner you are allowed to install #14 copper wire on a 20 amp circuit breaker to prevent tripping a 15 amp breaker due to high lock rotor current on start up. You don't even want to know how much a fire pump circuit breaker must be.
@@garbo8962 correct but what ive seen is someone runs out of spaces.. wants to say add say as minisplit and the panel is full... so they take a 14 gauge off of a 15 amp general lighting circuit and stuff it into the number 2 position of a 20 amp breaker that was used for say kitchen outlets or such.. they always say "it wont overload, there is other stuff on that breaker so I can divide up..". thats where it goes wrong.. its something you see from homeowners or "handymen"..
I love how people think that adding several outlets on a single breaker is "Over loading" it. The outlet has no load. You can install 100 outlets on one breaker and it will be 100% fine. It's what you plug into to outlets that will cause an overload. For example if you plug in a 1500 watt space heater into one outlet and then a 1200watt blow dryer into a second outlet on the same circuit breaker this will over load it and pop the breaker as this is more than a 15 amp(1875 watt) or 20 amp (2400 watt) breaker can take. how to get wattage for your devices is simple. Voltage multiplied by the current = Wattage. I.E 120Vac x 20amp = 2400 watts. And if you don't know the amps of a device but know the voltage and watts, you can do it that way too. 2400watts divide by 120 vac = 20 amps. Hope this clears up for some of you..:)
It should be also noted that a breaker should be derated to 80% if there is an attached continuous load of 3 hours or more thus 16amps total load for the 20amp breaker.
100% I’ve seen some things that made me cringe and wonder how in the world the house was still there. Last crazy thing I found was a 200 amp box nailed to a wall in an old house built in 1870. Definitely some overloading but the scariest part was that all the appliance runs were just stuck through the rough holes in the box, with no clamps. Half the wires were worn and a few were already burnt. I have no idea how that house didn’t burn. The Good Lord is all I can figure.
When you said "double- tap", I thought you were talking about breakers with two breakers in one. I had to educate a customer about these once. She had a family friend who wired her electric dryer and it wouldn't run. The ff had wired the circuit from a double breaker, thinking it was 220V. That dryer wasn't even getting 120.
Here in Florida at least the insurance company won't care, it's still technically a double tap, it just happens to be a legal double tap. Arguing with them is futile, they don't care if they are wrong. Insurance company will require it to be fixed (as simple as making a union in the panel with a pigtail and land the pigtail wire on the breaker and you are done). Load doesn't matter really as you can't know what the potential load will be, particularly on a circuit with outlet/s. That's what the breaker is for.
square D also has half breakers where there are 2 independent breakers in the space of 1 . only down side is they are the same phase so can't be used with a common neutral.
So I’m assuming the breaker would trip when half the rated load (80% of 20 amps) of the two combined circuits is reached. It essentially sounds like the 20 amp home runs when combined are derated in a double-tap situation..
At an continuing education class the instructor thought that on breakers approved for two wires you probably should not mix a #14 & a #10 guage wire on a 15 amp breaker.
A double breaker is safer than single, it will trip way below the circuit threshold, breakers protect the wires, it might trip early, but that is safer
Typically not>>>look at where the wires go in. If no flat plate held down by the bolt but only a hole with a bolt, then it can not have two wires in it.
Maybe allowed, but look terrible and just waiting to come out of the nut and cause issues. I don't like them. Ok for temp or testing, but not permanent.
Probably not, it’s probably two different 12-2 Romex cables. But since there’s only one circuit breaker involved, it wouldn’t be a problem if they did.
Depends on your local code. It's not legal in any of the cities I've worked in, in Michigan. It doesn't matter if the manufacturer says it is, the local code can be stronger than national code, but not lesser.
As an inspector, I am surprised that you would use the word double “tap”! When talking electrical, you should be using electrical terms. That is not a “tap”. Little words when talking about NEC are extremely important, they can make huge differences in understanding. For instance if you had no video and said double tap, would anyone know what you were talking about? Not if they were an electrical professional.
It is two conductors in one lug. A “tap” is a conductor that has no overcurrent protection at the source end (line side) of the conductor. So, without a video, “double tap” has nothing to do with number of conductors in a single lug, would it?
The double lug rating is primarily because it has a pressure pad and not just a scew against the wire.
Also it’s rated for two wires
Son of a biscuit. Learn something new every day
First time this has ever come up in discussion. thank you
I've been in the electrical trade almost 40 years and never knew SQD breakers were dual rated. I'm looking at one now rated #14-#8 with one conductor and #14-#10 with two conductors.
I've seen my share of double tapped breakers. Either because it was an older home and they needed to add one more circuit and the panel was full and didn't want to spend a bunch of money for a larger panel or a subpanel, or there was a issue with a breaker that caused arcing and damage to part of the bus making that slot unusable and they move that circuit onto another breaker instead of replacing the panel.
Just curious, while I know it looks sloppy, would the NEC allow for two circuits/wires to simply be joined to a third feeder that’s connected to the breaker, all inside the panel? Wire nut pointing up to assure it doesn’t collect dust of course.
Thank you. This is the exact info I was looking for on those Square D breakers.
If you look closer you can see it is rated for 2 Copper conductors. It is only rated for 1 Aluminum conductor.
Informative knowledge
On many occasions I have seen inspector call out double tapped breakers claiming the wiring is not protected due to the double tap. They had no clue about over current protection. A double tap actually has the potential of being more protective of wiring.
Wow, nice info here. When I bought a house a few years before, the panel was full of melted double taps, and it didn't pass inspection. Even though everything worked, the seller had to have it all changed. I didn't know double taps were ever up to code. I guess it just depends on using the right breaker
I use a double breaker in one slot.
The invention of the single space 2 breaker is awesome.
You can literally double the number of breakers in a small panel
Only supposed to be used in slots where the panel board allows it. Some are keyed as well.
@@starshorts6187Ah yes always the one guy like you in the comments who is the debbie downer and always has to have Negative Feedback about anything you can find.
@@trxtech3010. He’s right. Also some panels won’t even fit tandem breakers.
@@trxtech3010 the distinction he is eluding to is not inconsequential. to @ocsrc's credit he does say "small" panels can be doubled but for clarity by small he means no larger than 24 circuit as doubling a 32 or 42 circuit is not allowed and failure to observe this code requirement generates a standing liability for the installer for the life time of the install and it is an actual life safety code section (as opposed the engineering code sections) 42 handles is considered the max number of handles a fire guy can be expected to have to shut off in a fire PERIOD and the inspectors actually look for this violation.
I only recently discovered this, I was thinking about adding a sub panel until I learned about double breakers.
This is old news. The info is right on the breaker. If you didn't know this then start paying attention or you're fired jeez people
Never knew that thanks for the vid and new information.
Must state: Never exceed the rating of the conductor when selecting the breaker.
Of course the over quarter million words in the NEC has hundreds of exceptions to a lot of articles. If you ate feeding say an air compressor or air conditioner you are allowed to install #14 copper wire on a 20 amp circuit breaker to prevent tripping a 15 amp breaker due to high lock rotor current on start up. You don't even want to know how much a fire pump circuit breaker must be.
@@garbo8962National Exception Code.
That is not what the video is about. You can’t cite every code on every video.
@@garbo8962 correct but what ive seen is someone runs out of spaces.. wants to say add say as minisplit and the panel is full... so they take a 14 gauge off of a 15 amp general lighting circuit and stuff it into the number 2 position of a 20 amp breaker that was used for say kitchen outlets or such.. they always say "it wont overload, there is other stuff on that breaker so I can divide up..". thats where it goes wrong.. its something you see from homeowners or "handymen"..
I love how people think that adding several outlets on a single breaker is "Over loading" it. The outlet has no load. You can install 100 outlets on one breaker and it will be 100% fine. It's what you plug into to outlets that will cause an overload. For example if you plug in a 1500 watt space heater into one outlet and then a 1200watt blow dryer into a second outlet on the same circuit breaker this will over load it and pop the breaker as this is more than a 15 amp(1875 watt) or 20 amp (2400 watt) breaker can take. how to get wattage for your devices is simple. Voltage multiplied by the current = Wattage. I.E 120Vac x 20amp = 2400 watts. And if you don't know the amps of a device but know the voltage and watts, you can do it that way too. 2400watts divide by 120 vac = 20 amps. Hope this clears up for some of you..:)
of course.
It should be also noted that a breaker should be derated to 80% if there is an attached continuous load of 3 hours or more thus 16amps total load for the 20amp breaker.
10 devices per circuit! Per code!
When they mean overloaded they're referring to the code, not to an actual overcurrent situation.
Proplem is if double lug found you never know unless you ring out both wires. Homeowners do some crazy add ons to existing circuits. Best to check.
100%
I’ve seen some things that made me cringe and wonder how in the world the house was still there. Last crazy thing I found was a 200 amp box nailed to a wall in an old house built in 1870. Definitely some overloading but the scariest part was that all the appliance runs were just stuck through the rough holes in the box, with no clamps. Half the wires were worn and a few were already burnt. I have no idea how that house didn’t burn. The Good Lord is all I can figure.
@@choccolocco Wow, wired for fire is the saying. Lol
When you said "double- tap", I thought you were talking about breakers with two breakers in one. I had to educate a customer about these once. She had a family friend who wired her electric dryer and it wouldn't run. The ff had wired the circuit from a double breaker, thinking it was 220V. That dryer wasn't even getting 120.
Here in Florida at least the insurance company won't care, it's still technically a double tap, it just happens to be a legal double tap. Arguing with them is futile, they don't care if they are wrong. Insurance company will require it to be fixed (as simple as making a union in the panel with a pigtail and land the pigtail wire on the breaker and you are done). Load doesn't matter really as you can't know what the potential load will be, particularly on a circuit with outlet/s. That's what the breaker is for.
square D also has half breakers where there are 2 independent breakers in the space of 1 . only down side is they are the same phase so can't be used with a common neutral.
So I’m assuming the breaker would trip when half the rated load (80% of 20 amps) of the two combined circuits is reached. It essentially sounds like the 20 amp home runs when combined are derated in a double-tap situation..
Nice…. Thanks very much..!
At an continuing education class the instructor thought that on breakers approved for two wires you probably should not mix a #14 & a #10 guage wire on a 15 amp breaker.
A double breaker is safer than single, it will trip way below the circuit threshold, breakers protect the wires, it might trip early, but that is safer
good stuff...Thank you!
😃Pretty hard to overload a breaker ... that's their sole purpose - to trip with too much load!🙃
Looks like the square washer is misaligned.
Is it OK that the wires don't sit properly in the cups?
Does Eaton breakers allow for double taps? I can not find it on the breaker like square d and CH does.
Typically not>>>look at where the wires go in. If no flat plate held down by the bolt but only a hole with a bolt, then it can not have two wires in it.
Then wire them both and bring in one wire to the breaker..
Double taps are against code in Chicago! Regardless of the type of breaker!
So are tandem, or skinny breakers.
thanks ,didn't know that, i assume it still works on a thermal overload
If it fits I sits
don't ever forget: write nuts are allowed in panels
Don't ever forget. As long as you meet 312.8. Good luck on those calculations. 😆
@@honorelectricalllc5883nonsense
Maybe allowed, but look terrible and just waiting to come out of the nut and cause issues. I don't like them. Ok for temp or testing, but not permanent.
@@user-zq6pj5jo8ja wire nut, properly installed should never come loose.
@@user-zq6pj5jo8j Do you use wire nuts in switch or outlet boxes?
That's what amp probes are for
So are they sharing a neutral?
all neutrals are shared in the panel.
Your sisters ass
Probably not, it’s probably two different 12-2 Romex cables. But since there’s only one circuit breaker involved, it wouldn’t be a problem if they did.
Commercially, three circuits can share a neutral.
@@garyszewc3339 Do you mean (1) using 3-phase, or (2) with a heavier-gauge neutral wire?
What about EATON brand breakers.
I think Eaton and Cutler Hammer are the same. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Any breaker with a binding plate under the screw can accept a double termination.One on each side of the screw.
American electrics are hilarious
helpful for septics. put the alarm on with something else used so you know it always has power
Outlets & lights should be on separate breakers?
Not necessarily. It's the load size that matters.
It's best practice, but not required.
I read somewhere it was only certain panel for industrial use and not for residential use. I don't think it's code .
so to summarize, is that legal?
Yes, in this case it is legal. The terminal is rated for more than one wire.
Depends on your local code. It's not legal in any of the cities I've worked in, in Michigan. It doesn't matter if the manufacturer says it is, the local code can be stronger than national code, but not lesser.
@@garyszewc3339 that's helpful. thanks
Nervous camera guy...
I’ll take, “The code says” for $200 Bob.
Only if the breaks is designed for two taps.
He said that
If there's 2 wires from the same breaker then it's only one circuit.
As an inspector, I am surprised that you would use the word double “tap”! When talking electrical, you should be using electrical terms. That is not a “tap”. Little words when talking about NEC are extremely important, they can make huge differences in understanding. For instance if you had no video and said double tap, would anyone know what you were talking about? Not if they were an electrical professional.
What is the correct term?
Every home inspection I've ever seen calls this a double tapped breaker.
@@stargazer7644 every inspector I've dealt with, just calls it illegal.
It is two conductors in one lug. A “tap” is a conductor that has no overcurrent protection at the source end (line side) of the conductor. So, without a video, “double tap” has nothing to do with number of conductors in a single lug, would it?
Exactly thank you for clarifying that.. I believe the word “tap “originates from home inspectors, and not electricians