Refuting the Frenzied Flame | Elden Ring Lore and Philosophy Explained
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- Опубліковано 30 кві 2022
- The Frenzied Flame (or Flame of Frenxy, or Yellow Chaos Flame) is one of the bleakest and richest concepts/beings in Elden Ring: a primordial god who sees life as suffering and who concludes with the wisdom of Silenus, that it is better not to be.
In this video, I briefly explain the Flame of Frenzy and its ending before refuting its core idea. To do so, I employ the help not only of Melina but also 19th century author and philosopher, Friedrich Nietzsche.
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Choosing the Lord of Frenzy ending, for me at least, isn't an idea or a philosophy or even to follow what Shabriri preached about. I chose that ending to burn all dog enemies, War Hawks, Gargantuan Crows and above all else, The Royal Revenants.
Flame of Frenzy Ending:
Cons: Everything is deleted.
Pros: Revenants are also deleted.
Sign me up.
😂👍
See if he said that from the start he would convinced me right there.
Fuck I killed him
same. I had a list of things in the lands between that i just wanted to burn away. Thats why I was naturally drawn to this ending (and it was my first)
Shabriri's dialogue when you meet him made me laugh with how zero to 100 it goes with the Frenzied Flame stuff. Like, one moment he's saying seemingly compassionate and reasonable stuff like "Don't you think it's wrong to sacrifice Melina for your goals? I can help you save her and become truly worthy of the title of Elden Lord," then immediately afterward is like "YES BURN THE WORLD TO THE GROUND AHAHAHAHA!!!"
Like dude, you can't go full crazy right away, you gotta *ease* new people into the extreme stuff, any competent cultist knows that, lol
It's because Shabriri is a crazed monster of a man who doesn't really give a fuck about Melina or anyone else, he just wants to kill everyone.
I mean, I still fell for it
For real. Hey, wanna start a cult?
@@sugipulaboule Nah fam, too busy right now
@@sugipulaboule Only if we agree not to kill the Turtle Pope
It's interesting that Shabribri knows about Melina when nobody else does.
It could be argued its less that he knows about Melina specifically and more that he knows that in order for any tarnished to become Lord their maiden would have to burn. Bernahl's maiden did so, and it seems like it did work, seeing as he made it to Farum Azula to invade us, but he was so enraged by her death that he abandoned the path and became a Recusant. Then we have Vyke, whose armor implies he may have known his maiden had to die when he reached the Mountaintops. In comes Shabriri, telling him there's a way to save his maiden, the same speech he gave us, and leading Vyke to go to the Three Fingers out of desperation. I think this is the most likely option, considering he only refers to her as "our maiden" and someone had to tell Vyke about being able to burn himself instead for him to learn of the best-kept secret in the capital short of Radagon and Marika being the same person.
@@dumbsterdives Your speculations are interesting and have a lot of merit. Though bear in mind that Shabriri needed to take possession of Yura's body to interact with us, so it's possible that when he is "bodiless" it's in a similar fashion to how Melina is "bodiless". And if so, that could explain how he might be aware of her, even if he doesn't directly know her
@@dumbsterdives The thing is, the Two Fingers didn't know about the barrier on the door to the erdtree. How can this be possible if Bernahl and Vyke had also made it that far?
@@TonkarzOfSolSystem I'm not even sure if the dark souls like multi realities is in Elden ring.
Ranni knows about her too
I know it's wrong or something to wipe out existence but I couldn't pass up being called the lord of chaos
Ngl being called Lord of Chaos does sound pretty cool...
it's also a lie/non sense. in chaos there are no lords. hierarchy stems from order
The thing about living beings is, if they are wiped out then they can't experience their own absence, so from the perspective of the living, there is no time gap between annihilation and whatever act of randomness brings about more life in the future again, even if life doesn't emerge from the primordial substance.
@@WalterGirao thats a pretty good point actually. Something I never really thought about in the game
brother in christ, whom is going to call you that after everything is gone?
Hearing melina defending life in her dialogue, her voice almost seems to crack abit, like she is so utterly saddened that you would consider the frenzy flame, that dispite her and the world suffering, life and its uniqueness is completely worth her sacrifice to the giants flame. Its what actually made me reconsider doing it on one of my earlier playthroughs.
She did not once take off those stuffy boots so I could see some 👀. So I'm burning it all away.
@@bungiecrimes7247 😭
I'm sorry. I must have missed that after having to go through the """""beauty of life""""""""" that the merchants just prior seem to talk about, that I could not give less of a shit that her autistic ass had a voice crack because of how sad she was.
@@bungiecrimes7247Bruuuuhhh 💀💀
But deep down, she knows, and you know that the world is not worthy. There is so much bad that considering the Frenzied Flame is completely understandable.
It might be "chaos," but in the end, it is going to be calmness.
I remember coming down here and Melina pleading with me not to claim the Frenzied Flame…
..how embarrassing it must have been for her when she realizes I was only down her to claim a certain staff and then left.
I wished I could give inputs to dialogues only because my Tarnished felt *the need* to say to her: "Marika's tits Melina, do you really think I want to help these people? I left Hyetta somewhere in Liurnia two weeks ago and I am going to explore every meter of this land. I am just here for the fun of falling down the hole several times"
@@Hyperversum3 accurate lmao
@Daniel deeper down behind a hidden wall just to the right of the Frienzy Gate is Deeproot a whole area involving Fia the Deathbed Companion. The Prince of Death’s Staff is down there. Along with a legendary incantation (Elden Stars)
@@ShadowProject01 FUCK ME I DONT HAVE TO DEFEAT THE SHITTY DS1 TWINGARGOYALS RIPOFF TO GO FIGHT FORTISAX
It's incredible how every NPC assumes you have some deeper motive, while most Tarnished players are just kleptos who are doing errands to get cool equipment.
REMEMBER, if you don’t kill Shabriri and see the three fingers, before the Horoah Loux fight, he can be summoned to help
Only boss where I had 2 summons
This is what happened for me. I had no idea who Shabriri was
@@fredv7349 who's the second?
@@mirthless5603 Nephili loux
@@fredv7349 ahh.
I refuted the flame then did the dung ending so melina is alive in dung world
A goals beyond mere Tarnished's understanding.
The nasty doo doo devourer.
Melina before: "Life is beautiful."
Melina after: "Life is shit."
Same for my 1st playthrough lmao
Melina: "Births continue. There is beauty in that, no?"
Dung Eater: Hold my seedbed curse
It's interesting to note how Nietzsche and Dostoevsky have a dialog with each other, they argue against each other, despite Nietzsche coming several years later. Where Nietzsche wants humans to become the standard and transcend anything that would limit them in pursuit of greatness, Dostoevsky warns that when humanity has no external limits on their actions, only terrible things will follow. So you and Ratatoskr having this back and forth with these authors as your mouthpieces is very fitting
I mean, look at us. Dostoevsky was more or less right
@@samiteeny4035 Not really. "We" are not perfect, but "we" are better off now than we were in his time. There will ALWAYS be some kind of external limit anyway, so his point is moot anyway. The problem is that some of the external limits are trash and should be removed.
Just one example, countries who have legalized and educated their population on drugs have far less drug addicts. No limits no problems in that area.
External limits should exclusively be proposed by scientists, not business men.
Furthermore rational people will make their own internal limits. And those themselves evolve. For instance, Far less adults discipline their children physically than the generation before.
I’ve been spanked. I don’t think my parents were bad people
@@samiteeny4035 OK Commie
@@bunkerdenelectrix Rational people, making their own internal limits, is the endpoint of the intention of liberalism. No external limits, but someone enlightened enough to make limits of their own, for the good of themselves and others. But as you mentioned, for those not yet enlightened enough to make limits themselves, others must impose them. We call them parents, role models and leaders usually.
It's stated through items that Vyke came the closest to becoming Elden Lord, but turned at the last step of his journey to the Frenzied Flame and eventually fell to madness, and later to our hand. Perhaps the reason we are Maidenless isn't Varre's casual relationship with murder, but another plot of Marika and Melina to prevent this outcome from happening again. It's implied that Vyke was unwilling to allow his maiden to immolate herself to burn the tree, so their thought may have been to raise a Tarnished who has no maiden of their own to grow attached to, and thus the sacrifice would be easier to make?
In my character's case it failed, he grew attached to her anyway, and though she may not approve of my characters choice, it is the only choice that my character could make to spare her
I haven’t thought of it like this, it’s simple in concept but that’s a cool idea!
Holy shit
The Frenzied Flame is pretty that's why I chose it.
Alright, Mothman
Lmaoooo
Honestly one of the better justifications.
Talk about taking pyromania a little too far XD
I chose it for the 100% achievement rate.
I misheard you as calling it the "Friendly Flame," and now I want that ending, a big friendly puppydog of an Outer God who just wants to make friends with everyone and lick their faces, but also is made entirely out of fire, so. . . things do not go well.
And the real lord is the friends we made along the way!
ah yes the one where the tarnished embrace the strongest outer god of them all KIRBY.
that's just the greater will
I would read that fanfic.
May good vibes take the world!
I wonder why there was no extra content for using the frenzied flame to burn the erdtree and then extinguishing it with unalloyed gold and becoming elden lord. Some insight into Melina’s thoughts after that branch of story would be nice.
She probably didn’t like that you burned the erdtree, that was her purpose and you took it away from her.
"extinguishing it with unalloyed gold" ... I don't think that's actually achievable, the unalloyed gold we found in the game is in very little amounts and all it could do is shield an individual from the influence of outer-gods, kinda like the mirror helms worn by Noxians and Iji, but more reliable.
@@AscendantStoic You can use an unalloyed gold needle made by miquella to “quell” the flame and extinguish it from your body, allowing you to mend the elden ring however you see fit. Its an actual item in the game obtained from millicent at the haligtree
@@nafin9063 I know that, but you have to do that BEFORE unleashing the flame of frenzy, once fully unleashed it basically consumes everything including the erdtree, all living things as well as our character's own head, I don't think whoever is shown in that ending is our character anymore, they are nothing but an empty vessel for the flame of frenzy to toy with (just like Yura and Hyetta got possessed), no amount of unalloyed gold could fix that.
@@AscendantStoic I was talking about using it to burn the erdtree at the giants crucible, not at the very end of the game inside the erdtree. If you use it to burn the erdtree and quell it later Melina does not die but they are also no longer forced to hunt you down and kill you for becoming the lord of chaos. It seems like a gap in the games writing to me.
Anyone else think its weird how Melina dissuades us from the Frenzied Flame but no one cares if we choose the Loathsome Dungeater?
Life as a disgusting horned pig demon is still life so *shrug*
At least with the dung eater ending it’s implied that you’re returning control over the lands between back to the crucible of life, while the frenzied flame is just the end of everything.
Because for as loathsome (heh) and despicable as the Dung Eater's wish is...at least there's still life going on. It might be miserable for everyone and everything, but it's at least still ongoing. With the Frenzied Flame, you can't even say that much.
@@pedroportela6476 "But at least it's still ongoing." But miserable. So what is the point? Why is no life somehow worse than the pure misery?
Melina is just an average body positive girl on Twitter, even tho she never experienced how it feels to be an omen lmao.
The simplest argument to refute a moral nihilist is to kill them.
And yura’s armor set sure is cool looking
But thats why Shabriri and Hyetta are body-snatchers though. Their deaths mean nothing, because their lies continue to persist in a world that is unlit. They will always return because their destiny is a singular unfulfilled falsehood.
@@rapecelnationalist you say that, but I’m standing over here not only with Melina still at my side, but with this really cool kasa
@@errantvice7335 but wouldn’t that support moral nihilism?
@@fitzhugh7463 it’s scientific fact that whoever prevails in martial combat clearly has the superior ideas
If life is meaningless then you did nothing wrong.
The fact that we go into this game facing a desolated world, abandonment by the Greater Will (who, by the way, expects the Tarnished to go and do its bidding), and all the other things (like Scarlet Rot), this world has earned a good burning.
Ranni's ending appeals to me a bit more though. I also wish we got the flaming head as a wearable
I love Rannis idea. Of a divine that watches over the world, but does not interfere. So far away, the people of the lands might doubt it even exists at all.
@@belisarius6949 that's real life basically, do you think it's worth it?
I like Goldmask's Ending more. An Order without the medlind of lesser gods.
@ProTheGrammer First I though this as well, but Fia's ending not really is that. Fia is the protector of Who-Lives-in-Death, in other world, Fia is the guardian of the undeads in the Lands Between so the Dusborn ending is literally the opposite to your idea. On the other hand D can teach you the Litany of Proper Death spell, so in reality before the Shuttering it was a proper way to die, but with Godwyn and other demigods death and with the Shuttering itself the normal way to passing are mesed up it is why we can see undeads in the lands between. The strange thing that not all undead is Who-Lives-in-Death so I assume that the people who are the Who-Lives-in-Death are creatures who are only died in soul as Godwyn did so they are in this strange middle ground to oppoist to every other undead.
But overall I think the Who-Lives-in-Death should die and passing on noramally and keeping them in this strange state is a bad thing. My other problem with the Duskborn ending is more personal, but I really dispise Fia, she killed Rogier and D as well, both character were very good peoples who only wanted to help you, both of them theach you spells and new skilles, both of them helped you in annoying or hard bossfights and both of them give you warning and good advices for your jorney. It is just really really sad that they are dead and Rogier was even used after his death agains you.
Did the Greater Will abandon the lands between or was the Greater Will's connection severed by the shattering of the Elden Ring by Marika?
After all that was why the Elden Beast was sent in the first place, as a vassal to establish the Greater Wills power in the Lands. There is evidence of prior Elden Rings and Elden Lord's that existed before the current Erd Tree and the arrival of the Elden Beast, could they have served as a conduit for a different god? After the Elden Beasts triumph it formed the new Elden Ring within the Erd Tree, Marika however began to doubt the Greater Will and the Golden Order and thus she shattered the Elden Ring by removing the rune of death. I think this broke the Greater Wills connection to the world, this would also explain the two fingers decrepit state and seeming disconnection from the Greater Will.
Frenzied flame ending is basically the third impact on the lands between
Shabriri escalating to; “May Chaos take the world!” Always give me tingles.
Nice video. It's good to see NIetzsche being analyzed beyond the "Nihilistic edgelord philospher goes brrr" reading of him. As you've just demonstrated, there's a lot more nuance to his writings.
Ironic too, considering how anti-nihilism he was
@@watfunstu9086 This is what we get by some topics becoming popular discourse and be treated like popcorn rather than actual philosophy.
Nietzsche was mostly about how nihilism (as normally meant) was useless and how positive nihilism is the way to go.
The whole generally-left leaning rereading of him after it was realized his sister and the nazis edited a bunch of the contemporary publications is way more meaningful imo. Making out "the blond beast" to be aryans was not what nietzsche intended and not very cash money of his sister
@@michaelwerkov3438 please keep your political bias out of this.
@@mitchryan257 dude wtf are you talking abt. Someone drops a neat interpretation of philosophy by certain groups and ur just like "He said the word left!!! Politics in my videogames!!!! None of this is valuable or interesting now!!😠😠😠"
do more philosophy videos that include elden ring lore/backstory. it makes me appreciate the amount of work that goes into these games. and also what influenced these games. great video man:)
God I love hyettas little speech after you're touched by the three fingers. One of my favorite dialogue in the game
Really love the tone she takes when she says "Every sin, every curse." She goes from a sweet girl kindly asking for what she thinks are grapes to a madwoman breathlessly monologuing about why the world has to burn. Really shows just how much the flame can twist people.
I chose it for the achievement.
My first play through I chose the Ranni ending on accident. Then I watched the cutscene realizing Im no longer maidenless. Only then, did I realize I chose the good ending 😌😌
When I took it, I didn't take it as a 'good' ending, just an 'alternate to the current' - instead of the Golden Order and the Greater Will, we now have less known forces of the moon and night taking over instead. Could work out better, could work out worse.
@@Tomp4ul that's a translation error btw. In the original Japanese lines she said "The chill night is far far away" or something along those lines. Whereas in the translation, she says something like "Now cometh the age of the chill night"
I've noticed a few very minor mistranslations myself, eg, Jar Bairn, how he calls you 'Coz' which is assumedly the way we British say 'Cuz' as short for 'Cousin' in a similar fashion to how someone might call someone 'Bro' - I'd never seen it spelt 'Coz' until ER, even though it is closer to the base word, 'Cuz' is closer to the phonetic 'Cuz-in' rather than 'C-oh-zin'.
@@Tomp4ul not really. What Ranni's ending does is essentially you and Ranni going on a journey to give the Outer Gods the boot and free the Lands Between from their meddleing
@@draochvar9646 Unless the moon(s) that Ranni and Renala encountered are, or at least represent the will of, an outer god (or multiple?) - It made me personally think of the Moon Presence in BB
I'd argue that the philosophy of the Frenzied Flame is not moral nihilism. In fact, it is negative utilitarianism. Negative utilitarianism is the belief that primarily suffering should be minimized, which is clear in many of the arguments given by the Frenzied Flame. A moral nihilist on the other hand would have not care about anyone's suffering, it would be meaningless to them.
I'm a nihilist but it's not so much I don't care about the suffering of others. It's more like I acknowledge that suffering is both necessary and unavoidable. Why worry about facts you cannot personally change?
Finally a competent commenter.
I have been reading about this subject for a few hours and it has been deeply painful to see so few people with barely the faintest trace of knowledge or reasoning.
They're quoting Nietzsche as a philosopher ffs...
I don't see wishing for idleness, niceness, and a lack of suffering as at all analogous to the followers of the Frenzied Flame. Perhaps that's what their cheerleaders might promise, but they promise little other the destruction of the world and with it the rigid hierarchy imposed by the Greater Will, and the Erdtree. It is a frenzied vengeance that can only be born from an immortal life and endless suffering where refutation of all is the only conclusion. Specifically, for the case of the imprisoned merchants. I do think others sought the flame to avoid sacrificing their maiden, Vyke for example. Led astray by demons like Shabiri, and Hyetta/Daedicar. Maybe they thought they could control it and use it to remake the world, but there's a reason why they didn't succeed. They still had attachments to the world and fought this. Where as Marika might wish us to struggle on and evolve, I think the Age of Stars ending and Frenzied Flame endings are two conclusions of the path she put us on. The spiritual journey and ascendance beyond the desires that cause our suffering, or the disintegration of imagined order a return to a primordial state.
Personally, I sense a strong Gnostic inspiration in the mythology of Elden Ring. In Gnosticism, most simply put our world is a prison for a demon believing itself to be the true God and pinnacle of perfection. However, ignorant of the true Heaven it was itself born out, specifically from one-aspect of God, the Aeon Sophia (Gnostic faith can be complex but God has children in pairs representing virtues). Sophia wanted children herself, acting without the consent of her partner, and Father. She birthed the Demiurge. A belligerent, unruly spirit, so she cast it away and shrouded in darkness. The Demiurge then creates it's own gods/the universe/people. In doing so, though he fails as for life to exist, a piece of the True God's essence was required -- our souls/grace. Gnostics believe this was given to us by God. I get the vibe that the Greater Will is analogous to this Demiurge and while it might love it's followers (or just their worship) it is itself stagnant, corrupt and perhaps at the end of the the end it will return to what it was separated from.
I mention this because I could see the frenzied flame as an dark inversion of the Gnostic pantheon and the virtues. I see echos of it in Marika and her children, with their curses and with her rejection of them.
K bro time to go to sleep
The rigid hierarchy was imposed by the law Marika created using runes, the Elden Ring Marika created. If you look at the Elden Ring visible in Farum Azula, you can see it far less rigid in appearance than Marika's Elden Ring. We're also told that once the law was more flexible by NPCs in game.
Over and over I see people attribute Marika's foul laws and deeds to the Greater Will, when the opening of the game states the Greater Will has fled in disgust. Even before the Shattering, the Greater Will had chosen 3 possible successors for Marika. In my mind that illustrates the Greater Will's lack of satisfaction with Marika and what she's done in the Lands Between.
The Frenzied Flame and the Three Fingers are meant to be an Eldritch Horror, specifically a reference to the King in Yellow. The Eye of Yelough and the Yelough Anix Ruins make it clear the reference is intentional, rather than just fan service. There have been many derivative works about the King in Yellow. In the Elden Ring the Lands Between stand in for Yhitll. The Flame of Frenzy/ Three Fingers/ Lord of Chaos are Hastur (The King in Yellow). Shabriri is the Pallid Mask, servant of Hastur who seeks to seduce us. And Melina is Cassilda who seeks to protect the people from the consuming flames of Chaos.
People afflicted with Frenzy are separated from others not due to the cruelty of the Greater Will, but because the only way to contain it is to allow it to burn out
That’s a lot of words me don’t want to read
Wow your blowing my mind here that's makes sense as miyazaki loves his retelling of mythology and the story is so much like J.R.R Martin I just couldn't see what there soure was the final piece was given by you bravo friend
In death all pain and suffering cease as you no longer exist.
Shabriri: Noooo! Can't you see that omnicide is righteous for suffering of minorities!?
Tarnished: Needle go brrrr.
It's not just minorities, it's literally all the suffering in the world. Still stupid, but almost everyone suffers at least to some degree in their lives.
@@arcanefire7511 Frenzied Flame apologists tend to focus on plight of misbegotten, albinaurics and merchant tribe.
@@KnightLincoln They're easy to highlight, but they're not the only people who are suffering. Thing is their own argument, no matter what it is, can be turned against them. "X people suffer". So yeah, instead of killing all of those people, shouldn't they be protected and made a better place for? Especially since in game you can become the ruler of the Lands Between and create a place for all peoples, like the chad Miquella does. Just slaughter all the bigots lol, why does everyone need to die because of them.
Also Shabriri doesn't care about anyone, he just wants to watch the world burn because he was treated badly in the past, treatment he likely deserved lol.
when you decide to help minorities by genociding them faster
Guatchutakinabowtmang
Shrabriri: Save the girl
Edgelords: What was that about lord of chaos?
Punny Edgelords: Sounds pretty *lit* to me😎🔥
What is an edgelord?
I really love the philosophical discussion this game has brought about in the community, its really interesting to hear everyone's different takes on things. Also Shaun Dooley's voice acting capabilities and his vocal range are unparalleled, even now just thinking about his voice lines give me the most intense goosebumps. Lovely video friend, you got yourself a new sub
I would totally watch a Let's Play Elden Ring series in Nietzsche's UA-cam channel.
I agree with the frenzied flame. What’s the point of living just to constantly be miserable and die unhappy and empty?
Amazing video! As someone who has struggled with the themes of nihilism and depression i have been fascinated with the Souls series and the way Miyazaki tackles those concepts in his story telling.
I love the fact that content creators like you and Ratatoskr are able to take the concepts out of the game, relating them to the works of great thinkers and writers and making them understandable to more people. You deserve way more subscribers!
why are the poor, weak, suffering people offering their eyeballs to hyetta? because they see you taking the eyeballs of the strong and they too want to be represented in the Elden Ring rather than left out. why do both Radagon and Melika have their eyes pulled out and made into seals? there's a lot still that is unaccounted for in this reading.
The scarseals are not the gods eyes, much more an eye that got engraved
@@ColdNorth0628 so it's just a coincidence each of them only have 2 items like that?
@@SixBeark yeah bro they just popped their eyes out makes sense
@@ThePhrog714 we find a ghost who says as much near the first grape & it's consistent with what Roderika describes when she talks about tarnished volunteering to be grafted
@@ThePhrog714 don't forget, a lot of these folk can't otherwise die
You know shit is serious when someone mentions dostoevsky in a souls lore video
Fair enough, but I feel like we really do not get the full story in the base game to make an informed decision at the ending.
Honestly, we know next to nothing about Marika, which is a big deal since it's suggested she has been pulling the strings since the start.
The nature of the Greater Will also needs to be explored, what, with the 3 fingers being OBVIOUSLY a rejected part of it (3 fingers + 2 fingers = 5). No matter how you cut it there's always the feeling of being nothing more than a pawn on a cosmic chess board which, yes, it's part of the point, but in basically all endings the end result is so shrouded in mystery I feel we really need those DLCs ASAP
and in typical fromsoftware fashion we will get a dlc that only hints at some of the answers we are craving right now but opens up another whole branch of concepts and questions that we didn't even have before
... sounds perfect to me!
I never cared for those stories that you're supposed to 'interpret your way' I can make stuff up myself, but I'm here cause you're supposed to be giving us a great story. Flesh it out, I don't wanna be left guessing about anything 😕
@@hall6913 I get that and I share the feeling but I don't think that's what Fromsoftware does. Those games have A LOT to say. There is a reason why their fans discuss their concepts for years after the games are out.
An example of what you're saying would be the openworld of GTA... Or minecraft
Then again, I feel it's a lot easier to not care about what these characters have to say if 1. They aren't clear about what they want to say.
2. They keep trying to kill me for no good reason
3. They choose death and suffering over hope and logic.
Patches is my favorite character because of this. He is the exception to all 3 examples.
The players: we've questions.
Fromsoft: all I can do is give you more questions.
Now I want to see more about the Frenzied Flame in the original Japanese, because I'm curious if it has any parallels with Buddhism
To my memory, one of Nietzsche's critiques of Buddhism was that it was, in his eyes, a "life-denying" religion that posits suffering and struggle as an essential problem of life, a problem it aims to solve.
That critique is maybe a bit of a monolithic generalization, as Buddhism has a long and complicated history of in-fighting and fracturing (just like the Western religions), but it's probably fair to say that there are extreme and reckless ways of interpreting Buddhism that would inspire a world-view like that expressed by the tenants of The Frenzied Flame within the world of Elden Ring.
Melina is such a great character
Yes we don't see her enough but we can't ignore her amazing Dialogue and interesting character
Really sucks that they cut out a big chunk of her personality
cant suffer or be in pain if you don't exist.
also give me that Sauron looking eye thing as headgear god dammit
Can't exist if neither does the concept of existence.
average AN:
The Frenzied Flame sounds like the kind of demon from Berserk that Guts would take great pleasure in slaughtering with his Dragonslayer. The entire time I was watching this video, I was thinking back on all the suffering of my existence, and have come to this conclusion: When you take away all life from existence, what purpose is there to existence itself? If I were to end it all, stop breathing and die by my own hand, what good would that do? Wouldn't it just be giving in to the suffering and sorrow that existence has given me? And if so, why should anyone else bother with existence?
The Frenzied Flame is the video game embodiment of what I truly despise about destructive nihilism. The idea that existence is nothing but agony, so existence should be scorned and life should hated, simply because of the moment of suffering that occur between the moments of happiness. And that reference to Berserk wasn't just a joke. Guts' entire character spits on the beliefs of the Frenzied Flame and blows a cannonball shaped hole into it's cinders. Because if existence truly is nothing but meaningless suffering, why should a man like Guts be bothered to keep going with their existence and live life at all when he's been through literal hell countless times, but still remained the man that he was at the beginning of it all? Existence is not simply suffering, it is a balance of all things. And to deny it all simply because of one aspect of it is to express a true hatred for life itself.
Instinct.
He doesn’t have anything else.
Remember when he wished he died and then just instinctively prevented the wolves from killing him?
I prefer the frenzied flame because no one will ever know anyone else’s pain .
Why not just bring it back to 0 like it’s going to be anyway?
@@DeadpoolX9 fire is cool and by burning all of existence, you burn down at least 7 orphanages. Rood riddance!
🔥👍🔥
Guts hasn't "remained the man" he was and still battles his inner "Frenzy," daily. Not as bitterly as he did in the beginning, but the manga's called 'Berserk' for a reason. He's still horrified of the Godhand (the worst things in Life) for one simple reason: they could undo all his progress in an instant. Always waiting to rape, cripple and damn the new people he's learned to love, as thoroughly as they did Casca. Struggling is all we can do. The idea of an actual 'Balance' is refuted by Miura's own narrative. Every warrior can train to be stoic, until he sees his hometown in flames and family on a pyre. "There is no paradise for you to escape to. Go. Back to your battlefield..."
true, nihilism in it's pure form as many viewpoints is just an strand of light shed upon a mountaint we all climb with different conviction. so i find it also true, no point in just blindly going this one paath without acknowlidging others, that is not what humanity is all about. humanity in it's life is more about multi asseted life experience, collective or not.
Berserk fans lmao
14:51 Look at that view. With all the madness and violence happening around The lands between you gotta appreciate how wonderful the world looks. I remember doing the Chaos ending on my first playthrough. It wasn't until I got the ending I understood what was happening. I felt bad for destroying the world, not knowing fully what it meant the first time. haha oh well
The little sound track when it’s happening is so metal too
yeah that image really does convey hell on earth, it looked pretty cool
Arrr yes “end all the suffering” by killing everyone, the motivation of every final fantasy villain.
Fantastic video, absolutely loved it. And that last reading really got me thinking pretty heavily
Right when you thought that the Borg could not be any more terrifying, madmen Myiazaki and Martin have created a Lovecraftian horror flavor of the Borg. Marvelous.
Becoming the Lord of Frenzied Flame:
Cons: The world is destroyed
Pros: Bird enemies are included
Yeah, seems like a good deal to me
It's always people who are the most lacking in empathy that seem to put their lives above others.
Hiding behind a subjective moral high ground and an unreachable possibility that in the future things may be better.
Living their life in the comforts provided by the suffering of others, while accusing their rightful resignation from life as them being evil and weak.
To those ignorant people high on life, I wish all the suffering, curses and a living hell.
Until the day we all may find the other solution to ending all suffering forever you seem to be looking for.
Those lines from Melena are both beautiful and utterly heartbreaking.
As someone who rarely showed much emotion outside compassion, hearing her voice crack and tremble while near the three fingers was very jarring. You can feel the fear in her voice as she begs the tarnished not to seek the frenzied flame, knowing the devastation it will bring. And not to mention those lines about how, despite the world being ruinous, there’s still beauty in it and new life being created worth saving, is profound and feels straight out of the pages of Berserk (Puck mentioning to the tortured old man how life, despite being difficult, is still worth fighting for rather than being destroyed). These lines alone kept me from cleansing the world in death and fire, because even though Marika and her offspring wrought a nightmare upon the lands between, there’s still people worth fighting for, as few as there may be.
It’s currently mental health month, so this video and philosophy was uploaded at such an essential time
"Existence as a single blob" this sentence immieditly makes me remember the story by G R R Martin named "the song for lya" where the cutl surender their body to a parasitic slime like entity that absorb their flesh but still maintain all their conciousness as a single hive mind.
Was not expecting such a good video! Great job :)
Excellent video, that last quote is something I entertain in my own musings. I feel there is a wisdom in using the frenzied flame to burn the erdtree, and then to dispel it once its usefulness has ended. One need not become subservient to the powers of the world, but strive to shape it with their own will.
Im glad you enjoyed it!
Neo Genesis Evangelion reference: world is painful so let’s melt life and turn it back into the primordial soup.
Yeah, pretty much same philosophy .. it's melt everything together rather than burn it all away.
There should be a Komm Susser Todd mod for one of the endings :P
@@AscendantStoic There is a bit of difference.
EOE explains that the existence after the melting is a continuation of the current Life in a new form. Individuality breaks and yadayadayada, but you still *exists*.
With the Elden Ring Chaos ending... That Just doesn't happen. People die. People burn. Shabriri speaks about a general condition, not about you. You just die. Maybe humanity comes back somehow. But you die, 100% and in an horrible way.
her : "what's your plan for the lands between?"
Me : "fuck them lands and whatever's in between"
Absolutely beautiful analysis video; teared up near the end not gonna lie
One of the things I love about Eastern Philosophy, from Persian to Chinese to Indian and beyond, is the notion of "a state beyond duality which is not the mere unity caused by omission of individuation". It is a state where duality is per se nullified and something better, independently more supreme, is introduced. It's quiddity is of course mysterious.
One of the loveliest sources of this notion is in Rumi's Masnavi, where he repeatedly, and in different allegorical ways, discusses this issue. One example is a poem about the conflic between Moses and Pharaoh, where he depicts each of them with a certain color, shows how they are opposites and yet this state of opposition is meanunglessly dictated by something else(..) and finally concludes.
چون به بیرنگی رسی کان داشتی
موسی و فرعون دارند آشتی
"If you reach the colorlessnes [a form of which] you used to have before,
Even [extreme opposites like] Moses and Pharaoh resolve their conflict, befriend one another anew, and become one.
This, I believe, is a promising solution to the dichotomy discussed here.
I personally wouldn't want an end to duality. I revere the state of nature and know that suffering is not only unavoidable, it is the impetus for evolution. The universe is fine how it is. Also, why would I want to escape individuation. I like being a seperate entity.
You raise an excellent point, however, super cool fiery eyes that can shoot frickin' laser beams.
it's ironic the first flame brought disparity life and death in The Frenzied flame takes those things away supposedly
First off, well done!
This was brilliant and not only fleshed out nietzche better but has left me with some serious thoughts and questions about personal and cultural morality.
Im glad you enjoyed it and thanks for the good words!
I love souls community cause this kind of content and discussions, i've never seen this profundity of themes and considerations enlaced by real knowledge in other game communitys
Well done Luigi, subscribed
Thanks so much! Im glad people appreciate this even tho its a bit out there in style. I hope to cover some more of these kinds of themes somewhat soon
I choose chaos, because every one attacts you from the start. So ill burn everthing down. Good ending
Turtle Pope begs to differ
@@Hanakin-Sidewalker You're lying, there are no turtles in this game.
I think the goal of Chaos isn't rejection of life, but a restart of it... By total destruction. So this restart would take millions upon millions of years.
Unlikely. You are immortal, the pitiful insane puppet of a Chaos God, and wield the Elden Ring. You not only burned the world, but the foundation on which it’s laws were constructed. The very basis on which life might blossom has been removed. Time, gravity, the other laws of the universe, you burned them all when you burn the Elden Ring. All shall burn in chaos forever unless Melina kills you, which she hopefully will.
But even the very notion that you deem to press a “reset” button on creation, as if the lives remaining beyond the fog were worthless and not worthy of a chance to live, mean that Melina was right about you.
Such a person is not worthy of the title of Lord.
I think the point is the end of suffering which, from a nihilistic perspective means the end of life. It's not about restarting; it's about ending life, and therefore suffering, permanently
@@nathanielchieffallo4273 Exactly this.
You know Seymour from Final Fantasy 10…?
You’re basically role playing Seymour from final fantasy 10.
Nah man, you're thinking about the god of rot.
@@guest_zzroman2076 Correct. The goal of the flame of frenzy is burn all life into nothingness, a primordial Sea of chaos, in order to alleviate suffering, it’s stated quite plainly in dialogue and descriptions.
Which is exactly what Seymour is trying to do.
The best way to analyze the lore of these games is metaphorically, i mean Vaati does a good job by telling how the basic stuff works but there's so much potential behind what's explicitly told to us.
I would never have expected to see such a brilliant deconstruction and parallelism of the lore of Elden Ring. Brilliantly done. Dionysus grace thy path.
I don't think it's a coincidence that both you and Ratatoskr linked ER to existentialist philosophers (Dostoevsky not being exactly a philosopher but very close to and definitely a major figure in the "scene").
I wonder if even the philosophies of Kierkegaard or Camus would find a spot in ER.
Dostoevsky and Nietzsche fit so well in ER that it seems very probable that Miyazaki, and maybe Martin, consciously put in existentialist questions.
Great video
Camus was expressed more in the Souls games
None of this matters, there's one single core and unequivocally simple reason this is the bad ending:
If you burn everything, you burn all the maidens, you remain maidenless forever
But if all are one in chaos doesnt that mean u have ALL maidens? Because u ARE all maidens
If you do the Hyetta's quest line she become your maiden in the frienzied world
Except Melina lives during the Chaos ending and she's able to physically interact with the world (no longer spectral) and also reclaiming the memories of who she was before she lost her physical body. The Gloam Eyed Queen.
The flames are your maidens
That sounds pretty based to me.
the way you use an actual book for the part where you show the texts is so nice.
Upon learning what happened to the Omens, how Morghott was treated by the Order he devoted his entire being to protecting and remained faithful to them to the end, I wanted nothing else but to burn it all down. Discovering the merchants did not help, either, it would break anyone and made him question his quest.
Just thinking about the things Melina spoke about. She keeps mentioning new births, I immediately think of new players in the Lands Between. It sort of feels like she is asking “Would you steal the opportunities of future players to become lord of nothing?”
and for my Ganondorf play through the answer was “Yes, at least once to burn everything down”
Gotta get that achievement somehow
F is for fire that burns down the whole town! N is for no survivors when you're the lord of chaos lol.
....down here in the Lands betweeeeeeen!
I hate when people try to justify their choice as "saving Melina." She made very clear what she wanted, and she actively begs you not to become Lord of Frenzied Flame. If you do exactly what she doesn't want you to do so you can "help" her, you're not only forcing help on somebody who doesn't want it, you're also robbing her of her agency and her own desired destiny and/or fate.
On my first playthrough I felt the need to do as much content as I could and in doing so I learned about the frenzied flame but also the needle of Miquella; this made me think about how cool it was that, in a way, the Frenzied Flame is another boss but one you fight philosophically instead of physically as you must rise again and again, fighting/suffering on your journey to the Farum Azula in order to subdue it. By choosing to continue rising up after death with the Frenzied Flame inside of you, it feels like acknowledgement and acceptance of the idea that life is suffering but in face of it demonstrating that there can be a strong will of endurance to carry on, refuting the Frenzied Flame.
I do enjoy your willingness to try alternative sources & formats not common to UA-cam tho! All criticism in the interest of respectful dialogue. Appreciate your work.
It is pure irony that separation brings about all suffering, but it is in solitude that suffering is felt most sharply. Again and again we see that it is those who are forced into solitude, existing as a single entity, who complain the most for life's pains, while those whom exist with others, with friends and family and greater community, seem protected from such deep despair. To be apart from others is both the source of suffering and the cure, as we find solace in living alongside others, in finding that we are not alone. It is almost, not quite but very close, to the idea that one must know pain in order to find ecstasy.
In Elden Ring, the Frenzied Flame is the worst ending because it involves betraying those few we've actually found to be allies, Melina and Tempest. Ranni's ending is currently the best, as far as I've found, because it involves heading into the future with someone at our side, as consort to the Blue Witch, in the hope of guiding others as well.
Depends on the individual. Some of us are actually happier in solitude. I mean I do have a family but I still spend 90% of my time alone. But I know people like me are an exception, not a rule.
Finally, someone whos refutation of the frenzied flame makes sense.
The video was easy to understand and simple, but I think you probably spent a long time thinking about making this video. Thank you very much.
Why is this considered a chaotic ending by the game? Life is the ultimate driver of chaos. Butterfly effects grow exponentially faster in systems with life than lifeless ones. Killing everything just makes the world orderly.
This was a nice video, thank you for sharing
Thanks for watching and for the comment
Nietzsche is definitely one of my favorite philosophers to read. Even though I don't agree with him on many points, he has a marvelous way of writing that's always a joy to pick through. Great work bringing him into this video.
Incredible Video! This was a fantastic analysis of a true modern masterpiece. Elden ring has such a rich story, It's rare for a game to offer such a rich and meaningful story, as to touch the heart in such a profound way.
Honestly if we get to keep that Flame Frenzy helm in the ending I would have chosen that ending lol
Did the Flame of Frenzy ending as my first ending. Just really liked the incantations because it made my friends freak out. But started getting into the lore, and now I'm the master of madness and the Ruler of Ruin. I hope we get more madness items. Like an Ash of War, or an item.
Would also be cool if madness was contractable. If you grabbed someone with the inescapable flame, they would become frenzied and get healed with the frenzyflame stones.
I would never choose such a pessimistic ending as that. People would probably think that the Elden Lord endings are the opposite of that, but I truly feel it’s the Age of the Stars ending that’s it’s true opposite. Frenzied sees suffering as something to destroy, and Ranni seems to see it as something that must be embraced to truly move on. That’s probably why I feel that it is best, because it’s actually moving forward rather than staying in the same place as in Elden Lord, or going back to how it used to be like in Frenzied flame. I truly believe Age of the Stars is best because of that.
In the simplest way The Frenzied Flame ending is just giving up.
@@templebeast1324 Exactly.
Fucking love this comment man.
Makes me happy, makes me smile. Needed this ❤
I feel Fia's ending is best because it returns death back to the world. The natural process may now continue as it always should have. Life is defined by death and existence would be miserable without some sort of end point. The sorry, painful state of the Lands Between shows the consequences of removing death from the equation.
@@etinarcadiaego7424Actually, all endings return Death to the Lands Between. You literally have to kill Maliketh and unseal the Rune of Death to continue the game. What Fia's ending does is make Life within Death (aka Those Who Live In Death) part of the natural order and therefore no longer persecuted.
Not a bad ending imo (despite how dreary everything looks) I just prefer Ranni's or Goldmask's, since both prevent further tampering of the Elden Ring for exactly the reason you stated (messing around with it, in this case removing Death, made everything worse in the long run). Only differenc is method and whether or not the Order is visible in the world.
This whole questline did something too me. Heating Melina plead with me just about broke me.
13:37, wow, I am glad I did not choose that path. I've never heard Melina sound so impassioned!
There's actually one thing that is important to point out about what the frenzied flame should bring to (Unity): no births nor death doesn't mean there's *nothing*. It's much rather the ending of processes. In other terms, of time. Same goes for differenciation - space. Sufference and despair are but a consequence of a much greater "Sin" which is dinstiction itself. For if everything was the same, it means onthologically it's still made out of the same "substance".
I'm about to head to a point, but first remember that Shabriri, as well as every other major "agent" of the frenzied flame reincarnate themselves using bodies of random people that entered in contact with it.
Basically the frenzied flame is nothing but a spontaneous process of the world itself (much like a natural law) to actualize this equality.
Also keep in mind that the symbolism of the two and three fingers implicitly mean that they are inseparable from each other, thus at some point one will be the cause of the fall of the other cyclically.
"individualistic life is pain"
"life was previously a great primordial mass"
"melt it all away"
oh, like end of evangelion.
I think the most telling part of the frenzied flame is that it only emerges to combat order when order inflicts a great amount of suffering. The frenzied flame could melt all life back into the primordial crucible and then when order reemerges it is without the suffering caused by the stagnation of it.
Holy shit this got deep and I really enjoyed this, what a great video my guy fr
Thanks! Glad it resonated
I’m so maidenless I just do whatever Melina tells me
Me irl
Subjugation, hate, envy, despair, torment, classism, racism-- Burn it all away...LET THE FLAMES CLEANSE ALL SO THAT ALL MAY FINALLY UNDERSTAND ONE AND SO ONE MAY BE UNDERSTOOD BY ALL! Praise the Yellow Flames for they are the *zenith* of *acceptance* and *comprehension* !
Dude this was the best ending. 1:55 as a background would be awesome.
Been in a really dark place. This video has helped. Thank you
I think that the frenzied flame followers want to go back to even before the crucible. Crucible is still alive. By saying "destroy all that divides and distinguishes" Shibriri doesn't mean all that divides different lives from eachother, he also means all that divides life and the absence of life, the living and the non-living things
Birth of Tragedy is an amazing read and a great intro to Nietzsche, but it is also a dangerous first impression as there is much that he later changes his mind about completely. This was a great video, amazing job.
Since english is not my first language, this video was quite a challenge to understand. Really makes me want to read Nietzsche, what you read in these books are things I needed to hear.
That footage of the sun going down while shabriri discusses the 3 fingers?
Gorgeous.
MAY CHAOS TAKE THE WORLD seriously, ours. The land between is chill and all so thats cool, but we need a frenzied flame here.
I think the most interesting part of the frenzied flame argument is how it relates to being outside of human experience in life, and the fact that if you wish to remove that pessimism and yearning for self annihilation, aka the yellow chaos flame, they send you on a ARDUOUS quest. You have to do Millicent’s whole quest: which is rife with nihilist and pessimist thoughts and beliefs, followed by defeating Malenia, blade of Miquella, who is nearly unequivocally the hardest boss in the game, and overcoming it- not being carried by friends, but alone or struggling to overcome together the greatest challenge, you become Ubermensch, or the super man, in that you climbed the mountain and beat the odds, but to free yourself of the despair and nihilist ending of chaos, you must then travel to Farum Azula, a land stuck eternally crumbling,
And finally, face down the king at the heart of the storm, Placidusax, in the storm beyond time. Only then can you use the item and be freed of the burning of chaos in your being.
I played through the game on the verge of doing the blessing of despair, age of stars, and the yellow chaos flame ending, and it made for a magical experience, before I finally chose the age of stars.
Imaging Nietsche as this furious pro-life warrior-philosopher fighting against maddening despair of Frenzy is... oddly beautifull
The Frenzied Flame's point about the One Great dividing into all life that exists now, and that everything should be burned by the Flame to remove all the divides and distinguishes, immediately reminded me of Philipp Mainländer's ideas.
To quote Wikipedia, because I'm too lazy to put it into my own words:
"Mainländer theorized that an initial singularity dispersed and expanded into the known universe. This dispersion from a singular unity to a multitude of things offered a smooth transition between monism and pluralism. Mainländer thought that with the regression of time, all kinds of pluralism and multiplicity would revert to monism and he believed that, with his philosophy, he had managed to explain this transition from oneness to multiplicity and becoming."
The Frenzied Flame's argument concerning the One Great feels like a somewhat more fantastical but equally pessimistic version of Mainländer's idea of the singular unity transitioning into a multitude.
As an aside, Mainländer makes his idol Schopenhauer look downright cheery in comparison. He believed that the universe was trying to silence the will-to-live, saying that beneath the will-to-live was the will-to-die. He thought of death as salvation, for it would mean the individual will achieves absolute nothingness, oneness with the universe. He applied this to himself - he would ultimately hang himself upon publishing the first volume of his main work, believing he had achieved the completion of all his life's duties. I think he actually did it while using a bunch of the books as a stool.
If nothing else, he was no hypocrite.
Frenzied flame ending is my favorite. I don’t agree with the philosophy of it but it’s fun to make a character that does. The most fun I ever had in elden ring was making a new character and progressively making them worse and more nihilistic. She lived a horrible life before coming to the lands between and it would only get worse. Because of the pain and struggle she suffered fighting the monsters of the world she became worse than them. She joined the recusants to kill tarnished and spare them from their misery. She fell deeper into madness and eventually decided that being the elden lord won’t change anything and the only way to save the world was to destroy it. Playing out this story and this decline into insanity was definitely the highlight of elden ring and some of the most fun I’ve had in a game.
ah, see you made a character who went on that journey.
I did not make a character who went on that journey.
*I went on that journey.*
@@thealchemistking4063 The virgin Self Insert vs. the Chad Role player
@@mightystu49 Forgive me but I cannot tell who is who.
There isn’t really a reason to pick this ending other than curiosity, which is good, it’s like how Undertale offers up the genocide ending, the only thing you gain from the Lord of Flame Ending is sparing the life of Melina who ends up hating you anyways, so freaking cool
I plan on doing this ending for the achievement so that's why I will end up destroying the world lol
3:15 - I think it's important to note that optimist nihilism exist, the idea of nothing mattering in the scale of the person being used as motivation to act.
Finding a similar scene in Elden Ring to the book cover, speaks volume to the beauty and vastness of it.